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At This Hour

Real DOJ Investigation into Fake Electors; Interview with Rep. Jamie Raskin on January 6 Committee Seeking Information from Trump's Inner Circle; U.S. and Allies Discuss Deploying More Troops to Eastern Europe before Russian Invasion of Ukraine; Ukraine Says Russian Invasion "Dangerous," Not "Imminent"; U.S. State Department Says "Every Indication" Russia Will Use Military Force against Ukraine by Mid-February. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired January 26, 2022 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Kate Bolduan.

Federal prosecutors are now zeroing in on the 2020 election plot with fake electors, putting Donald Trump and his circle closer to legal jeopardy.

Imminent invasion: the State Department using strongest language yet about the threat from Russia to Ukraine.

And the Federal Reserve appears poised to raise interest rates which will impact every single American.

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BOLDUAN: Thanks for being here, everyone. We begin with reporting exclusive to CNN. The Justice Department publicly confirming it is looking into a plot to install fake electors to declare Donald Trump the winner of these seven states, we show you, all of which President Biden won in the 2020 election.

Some were sent to the National Archives in mid December, weeks after the election by state Republican Party officials. Until now the Justice Department has never acknowledged investigating any significant part of the plot by Trump allies to overturn the election. Evan Perez broke the story.

Tell us more about what you've learned.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SR. JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, as you said, this is the first acknowledgment we've had from the Justice Department, which is to say that they are looking into these referrals from a number of state prosecutors, who believe that perhaps a federal law was broken when these fake electors sent these certificates to the National Archives.

Some of these electors were smart enough to change the language that was presented to them by Trump allies to sort of cover themselves legally; others did not. So I asked the deputy attorney general, Lisa Monaco, about this aspect of the investigation. Take a listen.

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LISA MONACO, U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: On the issue you raised in terms of fraudulent elector certifications as has been reported, we've received those referrals. Our prosecutors are looking at those.

And I can't say anything more on ongoing investigations. But more broadly, look, the attorney general has been very, very clear. We are going to follow the facts and the law, wherever they lead, to address conduct of any kind and at any level that is part of an assault on our democracy.

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PEREZ: And, Kate, the importance obviously, at any level, we know that allies close to the former president, Rudy Giuliani and others, were involved in this effort to send these fake electors.

Look, this has been driving a lot of -- some of the fraud allegations have been driving a lot of the threats that election officials around the country have been receiving.

And so that's one of the other things we talked about in my interview with the deputy attorney general, something she's very, very concerned with, because, obviously, we have elections coming up. And states are saying they're having a hard time recruiting workers that are a key part of our functioning democracy -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: Evan Perez, thank you for bringing that to us.

Joining me is Jamie Raskin, a member of the House committee investigating the January 6 insurrection. He's also author of a new book, "Unthinkable: Trauma, Truth and the Trials of American Democracy."

Thanks for being here. Appreciate your time.

Why do you think the Justice Department is looking into this aspect of all the things that Trump and his supporters tried with the 2020 election?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): It's a crime to fabricate voter registration applications, to vote falsely. What those fraudulent electors were trying to do was misrepresent themselves as speaking for the will of entire states, millions of people.

So obviously, that's an instance of election fraud. And it might implicate wire fraud and mail fraud, depending on what, you know, intrastate mechanisms were used to follow that plan.

It also plays into what Donald Trump and his entourage were planning, which was to force Mike Pence to use staged contexts in these states as a justification for rejecting Electoral College votes, sending them back to the states, which is something the vice president doesn't have power to do.

But they were trying to get him to do that in order to lower Joe Biden's majority in the Electoral College --

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RASKIN: -- from 306 to something below 270, in order to kick the whole election into the House of Representatives for a so-called contingent election.

BOLDUAN: And given the fact that Rudy Giuliani, one of Trump's closest circle, were involved in this now, do you read that as the Justice Department opening an investigation that connects to Trump himself?

RASKIN: Well, you know, if you follow the House of Representatives, which obviously I do, he was impeached for inciting a violent insurrection back on January 13th of 2021. So a majority in the House of Representatives had seen enough, after one week, had seen enough evidence after one week to know that this was the president's plan.

But what has taken place since then is we have filled in a lot more evidence that he wasn't just inciting an insurrection; he was working to organize a coup against the democracy in order to seize the presidency for another four years.

And so I can't imagine the Department of Justice would not have evidence at this point to that effect. But as you know, the work of the select committee in the House on January 6 is different from the work of the Department of Justice, they are pursuing criminal law enforcement matters.

We are trying to write a report to the Congress and the country about this massive attack on American democracy.

BOLDUAN: First, on one of the heroes from January 6th, Officer Eugene Goodman, he's speaking for the first time about that day. His heroism very clear in those videos and several videos that came out of his heroic actions in protecting Senator Romney, protecting really everybody in the Senate with his actions.

I want to play for you why he says he has not spoken up until now.

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EUGENE GOODMAN, CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: People telling me you should embrace it, embrace it. I said, yes, but that means I have to embrace the negativity, too. And that's something I don't want to do.

You know what I mean?

Like I'm trying to steer clear. That's mostly why I haven't been doing any interviews, anything like that, because I just don't want any parts of the negativity, you know.

(END AUDIO CLIP) BOLDUAN: We have seen the ridiculous and horrible backlash toward some of the officers who have spoken up.

What does it mean to you that he put his life at risk and is afraid of what will happen when he tells the truth when he tells his story?

RASKIN: Well, part of the Big Lie is to unleash hatred and contempt and ridicule against our police officers, 150 of whom suffered serious wounds and injuries. We're talking broken necks, vertebrae, noses and jaws, traumatic brain injury, post-traumatic stress syndrome.

And these people have suffered a terrible campaign of vitriolic attack, violent threats, death threats and so on, just as anyone who gets in the way of the Trumpist movement.

But just contrast the heroism of Eugene Goodman with members of Congress, who won't even vote to support an independent inquiry into what happened in that attack in America.

Contrast these people who put their lives on the line for us and for democracy and for these GOP members, who are out there, denying the whole thing and going along with Donald Trump, who says his supporters greeted the officers with hugs and kisses.

BOLDUAN: Just look at that contrast, exactly right.

It appears your committee is closing in on Trump's inner circle, his daughter, his son, Bill Barr.

Where would you say you are in this investigation, Congressman?

RASKIN: I would say we are receiving overwhelming cooperation from more than 400 witnesses. We have more than 50,000 documents. This was the most photographed and videotaped violent event in American history perhaps, certainly the most documented insurrection against the government.

So we've got tons of information. This seditious activity was three different rings of activity, a mass demonstration that turned into mob violence against our officers; a middle ring of domestic violent extremists, like the Oath Keepers, the 3 Percenters, the Proud Boys, the QAnon network, the First Amendment Praetorian, the militia groups from around the country.

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RASKIN: These people came ready to break our windows, storm the Capitol, shut down the peaceful transfer of power, interrupt the counting of Electoral College votes.

But then the final and most dangerous ring of all was the coup, which is a curious word to use in American political life because we're not used to coups and we think it's something that happens to a president.

This was organized by the president against the vice president and against the Congress to kick the whole election into the House of Representatives, where they knew we would not be one member, one vote but one state, one vote.

BOLDUAN: Where does Mike Pence fit into this?

Are you going to speak to him?

RASKIN: Yes, he was the central target of coup. They wanted him to declare unconstitutional powers to reject Electoral College votes from the states. So we need to hear from him and from his staff. He did his job on January 6 and lived up to his oath of office while so many others, including the president, were clearly violating their oaths of office.

BOLDUAN: And that has not happened yet?

RASKIN: No, we have not heard yet from vice president Pence. But just to complete that part, they were planning to win a majority in a contingent election, declare Donald Trump president and then probably invoke the Insurrection Act as recommended by Michael Flynn.

They would thereby proclaimed something like martial law and they would have called in the National Guard to put down chaos and violence Trump had unleashed, once he seized the presidency for another four years.

BOLDUAN: Congressman, thank you for coming in.

Coming up, the White House says a Russian invasion of Ukraine is imminent. But officials in Kyiv project the opposite.

And Tony Blinken will have a press conference in just moments. We'll bring it to you live. Stay with us.

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BOLDUAN: There are several new developments on the crisis in Ukraine, all pointing closer and closer to conflict. Sources tell CNN the U.S. and several allies are in discussions to deploy thousands of troops to Eastern Europe ahead of a possible Russian invasion.

A top U.S. diplomat going further than we've heard yet that Putin intends to invade. Secretary of state Antony Blinken will be holding a news conference, where we expect to learn more. Let's begin with CNN's Natasha Bertrand. She is live in Washington with more on this.

Natasha, what are you hearing about the possible decision to deploy?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The Biden administration in consultation with allies, including the U.K., are thinking of sending additional troops to Eastern Europe prior to a Russian invasion to short up support for Eastern Europe allies. What we hear is this is about a thousand troop deployments to each country that would accept them. And right now we're hearing this will be Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania. And it would be a show of support for these allies, who are very anxious about the ongoing Russia aggression and the fear that Russia will launch an invasion into Ukraine.

What we're hearing this morning from the deputy secretary of state, Wendy Sherman, is stark ahead of the timeline U.S. officials are thinking could result in a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Take a listen.

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WENDY SHERMAN, UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE: We certainly see every indication that he is going to use military force sometime, perhaps now and middle of February.

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BERTRAND: So that is more specific than I think we've heard from administration officials. The fear about deployments to European NATO countries, of course, is that Russia weaponizes those deployments, to say NATO is being overly aggressive.

BOLDUAN: Natasha, thanks.

Let's go to Ukraine, where officials are trying to downplay a Russian threat. Ukraine saying, it is clear Russian forces are not ready to stage an attack. With diplomatic efforts today, Ukraine meeting with France, Germany and Russia. Matthew Chance is live in Kyiv.

Matthew, what are you hearing from officials there?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: On the one hand, you hear United States saying an invasion by Russia is imminent. Ukrainian officials say that's not how we see it.

I was told they are looking at satellite images on an hourly basis of Russian troops movements across the border, inside Russia. They said our assessment is they're not ready to stage any kind of invasion.

They're not taking that aggressive stance you would expect if any order to invade had come through. In addition to that, they say, look, even if an order is given, our assessment is they're positioned in such a way that it will take a week, possibly two weeks --

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CHANCE: -- to put themselves in the right place to effectively stage some kind of incursion or some kind of larger scale invasion.

So they're really playing it down. That was repeated by the country's prime minister today, saying, even if the troops there are ready, they are not numerous enough. There's not enough Russian forces to stage a wide sort of full-scale Russian invasion, which he says would take a lot, lot more Russian personnel on the ground, Kate. BOLDUAN: Matthew, thank you so much for your reporting.

For Russia's part, they are threatening to retaliate, quote-unquote, over "aggressive actions from the West." They are putting over 100,000 troops at the border. President Biden is warning to sanction Putin personally if they invade Ukraine. CNN's Nic Robertson is live in Moscow for us.

Nic, what is the latest there?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, got applause at the Duma when he said if the United States does not respond with constructive response to Russia's demands, then Russia will take appropriate measures.

He didn't say what they were but, in the past, Russian officials have said these essentially could be military. Lavrov went on to say, be in no doubt here, Russia takes the safety and security of its citizens as a top priority, remembering there that Russia has given 0.5 million Russian passports to Ukrainian citizens in the Donbas area in the east of Ukraine.

On national television today, you've had Donbas separatists saying why they need to get weapons from the Russian government, because they're seeing U.S. weapons being given to the Ukranians on the other side.

And you have the Russian foreign ministry saying, actually those weapons the U.S. handed to the Ukranians will be used to provoke a conflict around Donbas.

Nic, thank you so much.

Joining me now is former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, John Herbst, and retired Gen. James "Spider" Marks.

Ambassador, why is Ukraine downplaying threat of invasion when the U.S., U.K. and all others are saying it is imminent?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Well, I think no one is saying they are actually going to invade. They're saying they're prepared to and they may if Putin decides. I think Zelensky sees it's important to keep his public calm but also to tell Moscow he won't be intimidated by the threat of an invasion to making it unnecessarily dangerous for Ukraine, concessions in the talks of the situation in Donbas.

BOLDUAN: Interesting.

General, do you think a move by Putin is inevitable at this point?

I thought it was interesting that Wendy Sherman went pretty far, saying every indication is they will but that also the Olympics could affect the timing here.

GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it's both inevitable and I think it's imminent. I could see an invasion within the next couple weeks.

There is a tremendous amount of force buildup; all the logistics are in place as well as the military enablers. Again, this harkens back to the Soviet in terms of their alignment and how they fight.

When you see artillery and rocket forces, in addition to everything else, you know something is about to happen. At least, that's what I would be looking at as an intelligence officer in terms of an invasion.

I think the notion that Xi Jinping might have gotten in touch with Putin and said hold off on this, let me conduct the Olympics and maybe we can get some good standing. I think that's incredible and irrelevant because I don't think Putin cares much.

BOLDUAN: It's all so interesting.

Ambassador, John Kirby said yesterday they all believe there is still time and space for diplomacy. We'll hear from Tony Blinken at 12:00, likely think that he was going to push for that as well.

But do you believe there is time and space for diplomacy?

HERBST: There is time and space for strong action by the United States and NATO to deter Putin. I think that Putin has not made up his mind to go in. I think he's weighing carefully the risks. And if the warnings that Biden has issued are seen as credible by the Kremlin, I think the chances of Moscow sending those troops into Ukraine go way down.

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HERBST: Specifically, if they know there'll be punishing sanctions, if they know NATO will be increasing its forces at the border, Biden should be doing it. And if they know we're sending serious weapons to Ukraine. But we're not sending all the equipment Ukraine is asking for in a reasonable way.

We're not sending missiles that can take down Russian planes. If Russia knows they're going to face serious casualties, if they know they're going to face serious sanctions, I think there's over a 50 percent chance Putin will only threaten and not actually invade.

BOLDUAN: It's interesting that John Kirby also spoke to how the Pentagon is very clearly announcing all of their moves, putting 8,500 troops on heightened alert to be prepared to deploy. Let me play for you how he said it.

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ADM. JOHN KIRBY (RET.), PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We're being nothing but transparent about what we're doing militarily. A couple of days ago, we announced the beginning of an aircraft carrier exercise, called Neptune Strike in the Adriatic Sea. We have been nothing but transparent and we're going to continue to do that to the maximum degree possible. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: What you do you think Major Kirby is saying there, General?

MARKS: The challenge I have with that is when you declare your intentions clearly, you've also declared what you're not going to do. That's what we heard from the president repeatedly, that U.S. force deployment has never been on the table.

You want to make sure your opponent has to deal with a whole lot of unknowns. That ambiguity works to your advantage and I don't know why we would negotiate with ourselves and remove some ambiguity. It's not the right move right now.

We see France is soft on Russia, Germany is soft on Russia. I can't imagine a new chancellor in Germany saying we're going to shut down Nord Stream 2. We don't have nuclear power but we'll be all right, unlike the French.

I think Putin knows exactly what he's doing and is taking advantage of this. And as the ambassador indicated, Putin started this and it's only in his mind what that end state looks like. And NATO is trying to get its act together and I think we're seeing the real potential first steps of a tremendous fracturing within this alliance, which is very, very troubling.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. General, Ambassador, thank you as always.

Coming up for us, Boris Johnson standing his ground, refusing to resign, as we await the release of a report into parties at 10 Downing Street during strict COVID-19 lockdowns. The latest from London next.

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