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"Amphibious Assault" Underway West Of Mariupol In Ukraine; Ukraine Tells Citizens: "Make Molotov Cocktails" To Fight Russians; U.N. Agency: 50,000+ Ukrainians Flee Their Homes In Last 48 Hours. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired February 25, 2022 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: We have breaking news into CNN. We have just learned that there is an amphibious assault underway west of Mariupol in the southern part of Ukraine, that's according to a senior U.S. defense official. Russians are also now "putting potentially thousands of naval infantry ashore there at this moment."

Joining me right now for more on this is retired General Wesley Clark, a former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, also with us, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, John Herbst. It's good to have you both here. General Clark, just on this breaking news, this amphibious assault underway they are describing is west of this southern port city of Mariupol. What does that mean for Ukraine and this fight?

WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It is more pressure on the Ukrainian forces. It's an effort to make sure that there's no avenue for replenishment of Ukrainian forces. But it is still a supporting attack. The main battle will be in Kyiv. That's the center of the Ukrainian opposition. It's the center of gravity of this campaign. And so this is just an effort to tie down more Ukrainian forces and prevent them from reinforcing and joining the battle -- a decisive battle that will take place around Kyiv.

BOLDUAN: I do want to ask you about Kyiv in just one second. But let me bring in the ambassador on this really quickly because Ambassador, Nic Robertson also is reporting at the top of this show that the Russian government is now claiming that Ukraine is hiding military hardware in civilian neighborhoods. We don't have any evidence of that, of course, but that coming from the Kremlin at this moment, is a real warning. What do you think it means?

JOHN E. HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Well, it recognizes -- it's the Kremlin recognition that killing Ukrainian civilians is a serious problem for Putin and Russia, so they're trying to establish a justification for doing just that. So it is ominous and cynical.

BOLDUAN: Let's talk about Kyiv, Gen. Clark because, as you were just discussing, that's the real problem, that's the real danger. I heard General Ben Hodges, a former commander of U.S. Army Forces in Europe earlier today laying out how dangerous an urban fight would be right now. And the way he said, look no further than Iraq to know of course, how bad do you think the fight -- a fight in Kyiv could get, and what should people be preparing for?

CLARK: Well, I think first that Putin does want this fight, we welcome a chance to demonstrate Russia's combat power and punish and kill the Ukrainian people. This is what's behind this talk about the Nazis and so forth in there. He wants to show his combat power. So I think it's going to be a very bloody, difficult fight. I think if Russia is willing to destroy much of the city if it's willing to use its artillery in the city, and so forth, I think the outcome is going to be very tragic.

I think that the Ukrainians are determined to resist at least up to a certain point. We don't know what that point is. But they value their freedom, they value their association with the West, they fought valiantly so far, and they don't want to be put back under the thumb and the oppression of Vladimir Putin and his oligarchs and mafia.

BOLDUAN: Ambassador, kind of to the point that the General is making and leading to, I want to play for you something that the Ukrainian President, Zelenskyy said today essentially saying that, right now, we're alone. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: Speaking a foreign language.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning, we are defending our country alone. Just like yesterday, the most powerful country in the world looked on from a distance. Russia was hit with sanctions yesterday but these are not enough to get these foreign troops off our soil. Only through solidarity and determination can this be achieved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Ambassador, what do you think of that?

HERBST: Well, it's certainly true. Ukraine is in a military sense fighting this alone. There is significant support from the United States but it's also not sufficient. Biden yesterday should have also put sanctions on the Russian Central Bank, and taking Russia out of the SWIFT system. He was -- he should have insisted that our policy not be driven by our weakest-willed European allies. And so the Ukrainians were deeply disappointed in his performance.

Also, we saw other signs of insufficient resolve on the part of the administration. There were newspaper reports that lawyers are debating whether we can help arm the Ukrainian insurgency. That's nonsense. We did it in Afghanistan. We should be doing it in Ukraine. You also had reports that Secretary Austin was telling Congress, there's getting very hard to supply arms to Ukraine. It is getting hard, but we must make sure we do it. And we should be telling Congress in fact, we're going to make sure it happens.

[11:35:00] BOLDUAN: General, I'm very interested in your take on this. How hard is it to supply arms to Ukraine right now? Because we know one of -- the latest we know from the Pentagon is they're seven -- sending 7000 additional troops to bolster NATO Allies near obviously in the neighboring nations to Ukraine. But they're sending -- we're sending more troops. But what more do you think the U.S. should be sending -- can be done in real-time right now?

CLARK: Well, there's been a lot of talk around Washington and some people talking about, you know, fueling an insurgency against the Russian occupation and that means sending weapons and so forth in. Well, that means you're confronting Russia. But this has been the basic stumbling block in the administration policy and in NATO policy. We don't want to confront Russia now.

A couple of days ago, Putin made a speech and he warned us of unimaginable consequences if someone intervened. That's a veiled language for threatening to use a nuclear weapon, which is what they always practice in their exercises. So he has deterred and this is the Russian strategy to deter Western intervention. And so I don't think there's a way that we can get that reinforcement into Kyiv or into Ukraine, replenishment or whatever, without risking our confrontation with Russia. Are we prepared to do that? That's the question.

BOLDUAN: It sounds -- yes, it sounds like I don't know, give me -- I don't even know if Catch22 is the right thing to be saying but it seems impossible. That choice that you're laying out right there, General, but one that is they're confronted with -- the United States has been confronted with right now for sure. Ambassador, really quick, finally, we heard President Zelenskyy say that he's not afraid to talk about neutral status regarding NATO. One of his advisors also saying that they are now considering the proposal to hold talks with a Russian delegation in Belarus, what do you make of that?

HERBST: Well, that reflects the fact that he feels alone. And he feels that he's receiving insufficient support. But neutrality for Moscow means Moscow has control over Ukraine. But if I can just make one more point about supplying arms to Ukraine, we have -- we confronted the Soviet Union over Cuba in 1962, excuse me, '63, not '62. We confront Russia over Berlin in '48, and '61.

And the Soviet Union was much more powerful than Russia is today. We could confront Russia by providing arms to Ukraine, as we did in Afghanistan with the Soviet Union. We are far stronger than Russia. We -- this is something we're going to fight them. We should not be intimidated by Putin. That's a formula for Putin having his way against our interests.

BOLDUAN: Ambassador, thank you so much. General Clark, thank you both for being here. Really appreciate it. Coming up for us, we're going to have much more CNN coverage of Ukraine -- of Russia's assault on Ukraine. U.S. officials, fearing the capital of Kyiv as we were just discussing could fall within days. Stay with us.

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[11:40:00]

BOLDUAN: AT THIS HOUR, regular Ukrainian citizens are taking up arms, some for the first time ever as they prepare to defend Kyiv from a Russian attack. More than 18,000 guns with ammunition have been distributed in the Kyiv region since yesterday. And the Ukrainian defense ministry is now urging citizens to make Molotov cocktails to try and stand up to Russian forces.

Joining me right now for more on this is Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, who sits in the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, thanks for being here.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL, (D-CA): Thanks, Kate good to be here.

BOLDUAN: CNN is now reporting that U.S. intelligence officials are concerned Kyiv could fall under Russian control within days. You've been briefed on the battlefield assessment. What do you make of that?

SWALWELL: We've been right on almost all of our assessments. That's very concerning. I hope as Americans watch this, from so far away, Kate that they see themselves as Ukrainians, they are free people, they have their own culture, they have their own language. Up until two days ago, they had their own border. And while we are not putting troops there, we should send our intelligence to them so it's actionable, and they can act on it to hit the Russians. We should send as many military resources as possible. And we should continue to put the harshest financial travel and energy restrictions on Russia so that Vladimir Putin utterly fails in this effort.

BOLDUAN: You're listing out what I was going to ask you next, which is the United States needs to do more. If it is not more sanctions coming from Biden, what realistically, though, can be done not in a week, in 12 hours right now?

SWALWELL: Well, sure. Russia has an embassy in Washington, they enjoy having access to Washington, we could close that embassy, we could reduce their presence at the United Nation, we could take and -- take away the visas that are given to their citizens who work at the United Nations, we should consider you know, suspending the status of Russian students in the United States. It's a privilege to study here, I would hate to see that happen, but it's their leader who has caused this. And of course, the banking system called SWIFT where Russians work you know, are able to spend their money throughout the world. If we can get European allies to go along with that, that's an option too.

[11:45:00]

SWALWELL: But Putin has to fail. But, Kate we have to build a sentiment in the United States that people care. The challenge for President Biden to do that is you have the former president, typically in a crisis like this, everyone's coming together, the former President is cheering for the Russians, and no Republican leader can really stand up against him and so you have a country that's divided on what we should do.

BOLDUAN: But we have -- one President at a time. We know what President Biden though is doing. And I have to ask you on the -- what more can the United States do or should the United States do? We know that from President Zelenskyy on down in Ukraine, they want real -- they want military -- they want military hardware, they want reinforcements, they need -- they say they've got the people they don't have the weapons to fend off Russia.

I was just talking to General Wesley Clark and he said, on the question of helping to fuel an insurgency and helping and sending over reinforcements to Kyiv, specifically, he says that that means you're confronting Russia. He says I don't think there's a way we can get that reinforcement to Kyiv or into Ukraine without risking a confrontation with Russia. And are we prepared to do that? What do you think?

SWALWELL: Well, Russia is confronting democracy, they're confronting human rights, you saw a Russian tank run over a civilian car today, severely injuring that person, Russia inside its country, kills journalists and jails opposition leaders, outside its countries that has disrupted our democracy and the democracies of others in the West, and now it's a part of the largest invasion since World War Two, I don't think we have a choice. They seem hell-bent on moving farther west and Russia has already confronted us. So, Kate, I would say it's time to start punching back. And right now that means making the fists of the Ukrainians much stronger as they do that in their own country.

BOLDUAN: Are you OK with it, if that means sending convoys into Ukraine, to send in reinforcements, military hardware to help the Ukrainian -- the Ukrainian military? Because that is what we're talking about, that puts American -- that puts U.S. forces at risk. Go ahead, sorry.

SWALWELL: Yes. Support arming the Ukrainian military and helping an insurgency.

BOLDUAN: We also just saw -- Congressman, I just saw a letter sent out from Democratic senators and one member of the House urging Biden to release emergency oil reserves to blunt the impact of soaring oil prices here at home in the wake of the Russian attack. How much of a difference do you think that's actually going to make? It's kind of unclear to me?

SWALWELL: We should do all that we can because gas and grocery prices here in America continue to soar so, yes, releasing more reserves. Also, I support, you know, getting rid of the gas tax, at least temporarily in the United States, and making sure that gas companies, you know, recognize that and don't pass that on to consumers are seen as a reason to raise the cost.

And by the way, the child tax credit that expired, we should put that back in place so that Americans just have more cash in their pockets. We have to do all of this, Kate, and also defend democracy around the globe. I would just say, Kate, it's very comfortable here in the United States and I think about what's happening in Ukraine. We've got our own problems, we have to address those. But what is our democracy worth if we can't stand up for another country when there's just been attacked? BOLDUAN: Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you for coming in. Appreciate it.

SWALWELL: My pleasure.

BOLDUAN: And for more information on how you can help humanitarian efforts in Ukraine, you can go to cnn.com/impact. Coming up, we have much more of CNN's coverage of this crisis. Coming up ahead, the Russian assault -- the Russian attack already forcing tens of thousands of Ukrainians to flee their homes, a live report from the region next.

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[11:50:00]

BOLDUAN: A senior U.S. defense officials now saying that Russia has launched at least 200 missiles into Ukraine since the start of their invasion, a mix of ballistic and cruise missiles and they say some of its civilian areas. But the death toll is currently unknown. The Russian assault is forcing so many Ukrainians to flee their homes. According to the United Nations Refugee Agency in the last 48 hours, more than 50,000 people have left the country. CNN's Scott McLean is in eastern Poland, where some thousands of refugees have been making their way across the board. He joins us now. Scott, what are you seeing?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kate, yes. So just to set the scene we are in a town called Przemysl, it is about 30 minutes or so from the Polish-Ukrainian border, and this is an area where it's quite chaotic these days. Many of the people here are waiting for people to come from Ukraine. There are two trains coming from Kyiv. They were supposed to be here at one and three o'clock, it is now well beyond that. It's about five o'clock -- six o'clock right now. And so they are obviously very late. There's huge delays at the Ukrainian border because they're having issues. We're told at least by Polish authorities with their IT system.

Let me just show you around really briefly. Obviously, people are trying to get on from this train station to elsewhere in Poland. You can also see over here, there's cases of water, there's food, there's things like that. Polls have been quite generous in their donations. Other people are also even opening their homes to women and children who have arrived here. What you will not see here though, Kate is men between the ages of 18 and 60 unless they live in Poland. I spoke to a Ukrainian man who lives in Poland earlier today and he says that he will go back not if the situation gets better but if it gets worse. Here's why.

[11:55:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEXANDER JAROSZEWSKI, UKRAINIAN CITIZEN: Yes, I will go and fight and I'm ready to die for my event, for the future of my parents with my kids. I will fight for democratic and freedom of country for the law and it's my duty. If it will be the question of life and death of my country, my freedom, yes, I will go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: And remember if you're stuck at the border trying to get into Poland on a train, that's one thing. Remember, there are people waiting 12 hours plus outdoors at the pedestrian crossway, Kate, it is a dire situation and people are desperate.

BOLDUAN: Scott, thank you so much for being there. Really appreciate it. And thank you all for being with us AT THIS HOUR. Our coverage of this Russian attack on Ukraine continues. INSIDE POLITICS with John King starts after a quick break.

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