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Russia Seizes Europe's Largest Nuclear Plant In Ukraine; New Video Captures Horrifying Aftermath Of Apt. Complex Bombing; NATO: Russia Using Banned Cluster Bombs In Ukraine. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired March 04, 2022 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[11:00:13]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. We do begin with breaking news. Putin's war in Ukraine entering a dangerous new phase, Russian forces have seized Europe's largest nuclear power plant in Ukraine after unleashing a punishing assault overnight, also triggering fears of a potential nuclear disaster.

The company that operates the plant says that the managers are now working at gunpoint. Ukraine's President calls the nuclear plant attack quote, terror of an unprecedented level. The U.S. Embassy in Ukraine calls it a war crime.

And just minutes, the U.N. Security Council will be holding an emergency meeting. It comes as new video we're going to show you of this horrific aftermath of the Russian military strikes that obliterated an apartment complex in northeastern Ukraine. It's really unimaginable. Ukrainian officials say that nearly three dozen people were killed, many more were injured.

And now as has been feared, NATO Secretary General says that Russia is using banned cluster bombs in Ukraine. Russian forces continue making significant advances in the south of Ukraine adding to the growing humanitarian crisis we've been seeing play out. So let's get started with our coverage right now. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is live in Odessa. Nick, what is the very latest you're hearing, learning about this nuclear plant?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, I mean, it describes what we saw overnight, frankly, to report words that you'd never imagined would come out of your mouth that according to the director of the International Atomic Energy Authority, that this was, quote, a close call.

Now, they believe that the integrity of their reactors is untouched. And certainly Ukrainian officials have talked about damage to some of the external buildings, not the main six reactor units themselves. But as you said, they now say that Ukrainian staff who work there are doing so at gunpoint and that essentially despite the remarkable images overnight shown on the internet, the live feed of what was happening at that plant, explosions hitting the area around it. Despite that violence, those Ukrainian staff have gone back in to work today to ensure that whatever can be salvaged of stability here is indeed salvaged. I should say at this point, there is no apparent continued threatened a raise in radiation levels as far as we understand. So it may be this extraordinary bid by Russia to assault a nuclear power plant has passed behind us and may not have a lasting impact. But still it has been seized upon by Ukrainian officials, quite rightly, as a sign of the indiscriminate and reckless nature of Russian behavior.

The foreign minister talked about this potentially being 10 times worse than Chernobyl, that clearly has not transpired and may not have been valid as a perception. But you mentioned too also, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy talking about how this was an extraordinary acts of terror. It's really shown, I think, to many officials, the potential impact across Europe of this damaging Russian onslaught, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Nick, thank you very much for being there.

Joining me right now for more on this, CNN military analyst, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark and also with us is Leslie Dewan a nuclear engineer, the CEO of RadiantNano, a radiation detection and nuclear security company. Thanks for being here. General, shooting directly at a nuclear power plant facility, is there any rationale for that one in combat?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, actually, there is rationale for it. First of all, power plants like bridges and other key infrastructure, our military objectives. Secondly, Mr. Putin may want to seize that power plant and at some point cut the power. This plant represents 25 percent of the current power for Ukraine so it could give him an advantage and deepening Ukraine's humanitarian crisis.

BOLDUAN: Leslie there's now word as you heard Nick Paton Walsh reporting that the people operating the facility are working under gunpoint. I mean, what's your reaction to that? I mean, what are your top concerns after hearing these details?

LESLIE DEWAN, NUCLEAR ENGINEER: Well, what I'm worried about especially last night when the situation was so fluid is damage to the nuclear fuel that's in the facility. So the way nuclear reactors work is that they use the heat produced by uranium fuel to boil water into steam. The steam is used to drive a turbine that turns a generator that produces electricity.

Even after the reactor is shut down as I believe all of these units were, there still is a significant amount of residual heat being produced. And you need to keep pumping water over the core for several days until it cools down. So what I was worried about last night and what I still am worried about today with the staff who are working literally under gunpoint right now, I was worried that you lose the pumps that means you lose the water which means the fuel can overheat and become damaged leading to a nuclear meltdown.

[11:05:04]

BOLDUAN: And Leslie everyone's mind of course went very quickly to Chernobyl when hearing about this, what is different though here with this facility?

DEWAN: There are two key differences here. So, one of the most critical pieces is the containment dome that this plant has. So Chernobyl style reactors don't, they didn't have any containment around their reactor pressure vessels. But the reactors at the Zaporizhzhia site have modern style robust containment dome. So this is five feet thick of reinforced steel and concrete, capable of actually withstanding a direct strike from an airplane.

BOLDUAN: That's fascinating, go ahead.

DEWAN: And then the other piece of it -- there's one other piece of it as well, actually. So the reactors at Chernobyl were designed in a way that made them inherently unstable. So in those reactors, if your fuel starts to overheat, the water boils away and the fuel is uncovered, the reactivity actually increases. So it leads to a runaway reaction and a potential for a larger explosion. That particular failure mode can't happen in this type of reactor here just based on the inherent physics of the design.

BOLDUAN: It's so interesting. OK, General, I think you were touching on this. And I wanted to ask you more about this. A senior defense official is now saying that the United States is quote, unquote, deeply concerned about Russia's -- what Russia's intentions are regarding this nuclear power plant. And I heard a former State Department officials say earlier today, calling this in his view, nuclear blackmail. What does it tell you about Putin's next moves?

CLARK: Well, it is nuclear blackmail, Kate, because that plant could be turned off, it could also be damaged in some way, it could be used as a sort of a, a radioactive bomb that would permanently contaminate large portions of Ukraine. So it is a threat, that if something really went wrong with Putin's operation, he had to give up on it and he's angry, maybe he blows up the plant and causes a huge problem it is. It's just a fact. There are other nuclear reactors in Ukraine, they're all the same. And Ukrainian military asked to decide whether to defend them. Maybe the United Nations could come in and declared some kind of a protected zone if the Russians were to let them do that. And maybe there's a way to handle this in a safer way. But until that time, we have to recognize this is risk. And it's just part of the risk that's ongoing conflict is bringing to us.

BOLDUAN: And building. You know, Leslie, the U.S. Secretary of Energy said today that she has activated the nuclear incident response team, also noting that so far, they've seen no elevated radiation readings near the facility. When you hear that there's no elevated radiation levels, no leakage seen, does that mean that they're in the clear? Or could it take time to really assess this completely?

DEWAN: I think it's still a very, very fluid situation. I mean, one of the other things I worry about is the risk of additional fires or shelling, damaging the spent nuclear fuel that's held on site, which could lead to a leak of nuclear material. Nuclear reactors are designed to be accident proof, but the situation is not an accident.

BOLDUAN: Well said. You know, General, is this location, geographically important, or is this move all about controlling the power, controlling the power dynamic in this fight?

CLARK: Well, it's certainly one of the purposes of it. But my going north up to Dnieper River, the military situation becomes more complicated for Ukraine, because Ukraine still has forces controlling the Donbass on the western side of that hash region, you're showing up there. And those forces are likely to be trapped there and then encircled and run out of food and fuel and ammunition, and annihilated.

So those forces have to retrograde in a smart way back across the river to more decisive fights on the west side of the river, how they do that the sequencing of it, the logistics of it, the movement, when they don't have air superiority, all of that is enormously complicated and challenging for the Ukrainians. So there was a definite military operational thrust behind the Russian move, not just the seizure of the power plant.

BOLDUAN: And finally, I mean, it goes without saying, Leslie, but winds blow west to east I mean, what would a meltdown mean even for Russia?

DEWAN: It could be catastrophic. If the worst case scenario were to occur, it would be -- it could be just unprecedented, perhaps, release of material and the situation itself is in so many ways unprecedented.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. Leslie, thank you for coming on. General, stick with me, we've got more to discuss.

[11:10:00]

Coming up, NATO is now accusing Russia of using cluster bombs in Ukraine, weapons that are banned. How can world leaders stop these atrocities from continuing on any further details and live report, next.

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BOLDUAN: Welcome back, everyone. Russia's military has launched more than 500 missiles since it began its invasion in Ukraine a one week ago. That is according to a U.S. defense official. And with each passing day we are seeing these horrifying images of Ukrainian citizens being killed by Putin's forces. This also, we will show you, is there is also this, this new video of the aftermath of Russian airstrikes on an apartment complex in northeastern Ukraine, dozens are dead many more are injured, a warning this video is graphic.

[11:15:32]

Yes, CNN's Scott McLean is live in western Ukraine with more on this. Scott, what do you -- what more are you learning about this attack?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, Kate, if you needed a reminder about just how horrific war can truly be, well just watch that video. It is truly horrifying what you're seeing in there. What we know about this area is this was a residential area. There are several apartment blocks in this area Chernihiv is about 90 miles north inside the east of Kyiv.

And in that video what you may not have heard, assuming there was not translation is that you hear that awful shriek of that woman who appears to be injured. You see two lifeless bodies beside her. And then she says kids, little kids, someone asks her where and then she doesn't answer. Someone in the video also is yelling about the fact that the pharmacy in addition to this building has also been hit a red brick building in front of the apartment complexes has been hit as well.

All told, the authorities say that 33 bodies were pulled from that rubble, 18 people were injured and Russia continues to insist that they are only going after military targets. But the local government says that, look, as I said, this was an area with residential housing with schools, kindergartens. And in fact, in this particular area, just about 1,000 feet from where the strikes took place, there was actually a children's hospital. And this is a perfect illustration, Kate, of why exactly the Ukrainian government continues to call for a no fly zone so that Ukrainians don't have to worry about bombs dropping out of the sky. They think that if they can eliminate that then while the Ukrainians can take the Russian forces on the ground.

BOLDUAN: Scott, thank you so much for your reporting. All right, NATO Secretary General says Russia is using banned cluster bombs in Ukraine. Listen to this.

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JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a blatant violation of international law. And we have seen the use of cluster bombs. We have seen reports of use of other types of which weapons will be -- which will be in violation of international law. This is brutality. This is inhumane. And this is violating national law. And we also may have to make sure that international criminal court really looks into this.

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BOLDUAN: Right now. Secretary of State Tony Blinken, he's in Brussels as well for the latest talks with NATO allies and E.U. leaders about what to do here. I mean, in just minutes the U.N. Security Council will also be holding an emergency meeting. We'll see what comes of that. CNN's Natasha Bertrand is live in Brussels for us once again with the very latest. So Natasha, what is NATO saying, what is going to happen about with these attacks?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, so with regard to that attack on the nuclear power plant, NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg did call it reckless and remarks this morning. And importantly, U.S. and NATO officials are telling us that they don't exactly know what the Russians intentions are with that power plan, which makes it particularly worrying. Obviously, they said this morning that they did not see any radiation coming out of that plant after that attack, but it's still very concerning that this could be a potential target for the Russian forces. With regard to the cluster bombs that Stoltenberg had mentioned that he accused Russia of using, he has called for an investigation. He has support an investigation by the International Criminal Court looking into the use of such banned weapons. Of course CNN teams have also seen weapons called thermobaric weapons heading into Ukraine, which are very, very dangerous weapons for civilians, obviously.

So all of this is coming as U.S. and NATO officials are warning that things could get a lot worse here as Russia begins to bring in heavier weaponry as they tried to regain control of Ukraine and try to gain more ground. Now Secretary of State Antony Blinken said today that NATO is not an offensive Alliance, they are defensive. And while they are not going to attack Russia and they're not going to get into the war, they're also not going to allow any incursion into NATO territory.

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ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: Ours is a defensive alliance. We seek no conflict. But if conflict comes to us, we're ready for it. We will defend every inch of NATO territory.

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[11:20:05]

BERTRAND: So this is in response obviously to fears felt by the Ukraine -- by the eastern flank, NATO Allies now that Russia has launched this aggression against Ukraine. Could they be next? That is one of the main concerns that they have been expressing in these NATO meeting. So all the talk today about how to move forward how to protect those eastern flank NATO allies, how to provide more support to Ukraine, amid this Russian onslaught, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Natasha, thank you very much.

Back with me now, General Wesley Clark. General, let's talk about the cluster bombs first, the NATO Secretary General confirming that Russia is using cluster bombs, also noting their reports of other banned weapons being used by Russia. So now that we know it, what should it change in the fight and what Ukrainians need to be prepared for?

WESLEY: Well, there's not much you can do to prepare for this other than to identify the launchers that are being used to launch these systems, and then take them out. So some of those launchers have been targets and have been taken out, I'm told. But in terms of NATO and international community, there needs to be evidence collected. So this goes to the International Criminal Court. So the court cases -- the court case has to be based on real evidence.

So this means fragments of the bombs, date, time location, chain of custody, all these sorts of legal issues come into play. And hopefully the Ukrainians will follow those legal procedures so that legal action can be taken against the Russian forces.

BOLDUAN: And what can be done is obviously a huge question that continues to be asked, I want to play for you something else, that the Secretary General, the NATO Secretary General's, his response really when asked if he feels remorse, or he is sorry that NATO isn't doing more. Listen to this.

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STOLTENBERG: We also have a responsibility to make sure that this conflict doesn't spiral out of control and goes beyond Ukraine, and as a full-fledged war in Europe, involving many more countries, Europe, Russia, against NATO, that will cause even more suffering even more death, even more civilian killed.

So therefore, we provide support, we are stepping up to support. But we also made it clear that we are not part of the conflict. We are a defensive alliance, and we will not move NATO troops or NATO air forces into Ukraine.

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BOLDUAN: General I've heard you talk about a NATO protective force. Do you think well, risky, it might be necessary here?

WESLEY: Well, I think Secretary General said it exactly right, Kate, NATO is a defensive alliance. NATO cannot go in there. NATO is not offensive. What the United Nations might authorize but other nations do, and how assistance is provided. Those are different matters. But for NATO, the Secretary General has it I think exactly right. I think the Biden administration working with NATO has done a remarkable job of recovering from some of the damage that was done during the previous administration.

So I think NATO is tight. I think Mr. Putin is surprised by this. And I think it's a very important Bulwark. I also appreciated what Secretary Blinken just said in a quote that the United States will defend and NATO will defend every inch of NATO territory. This is very important reassurance from the United States. And I'm sure it's very welcomed by our European allies.

BOLDUAN: We've also just learned general from a senior U.S. defense official that one reason that getting now to that massive 40-mile long Russian convoy outside of Kyiv, one reason that convoy that comb is stalled outside of Kyiv is because of direct attacks by the Ukrainians coupled with them destroying a bridge in the convoys path. How much of a setback could this be?

WESLEY: I think it's a significant tactical setback. It has slowed their timetable and you can look at those tracks in that soft ground beside the road there. As vehicles have tried to maneuver around the stalled column, you can see that this is farmland. It's been plowed at some point. It's not frozen. It's soft. So this is a real obstacle. This is what's really held up the Russian attack on Kyiv. So it is very significant. And I suspect at this point, some of these vehicles are out of fuel or maybe an opportunity that the people driving them have gone away. It's a real mess, and it's really set back Putin's timetable.

BOLDUAN: Interesting. General, thank you for sticking around, I really appreciate it.

[11:24:37]

Coming up for us, the Supreme Court, the U.S. Supreme Court upholding the death sentence for the Boston Marathon bomber, more on this breaking story, next.

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BOLDUAN: We have breaking news, the U.S. economy added 678,000 jobs in February, the strongest hiring since last summer. The unemployment rate ticked down to 3.8 percent, the lowest level since the pandemic. Joining me now for more on this as labor secretary Marty Walsh, Secretary, thank you for being here. This is a strong report. So where are we in the recovery from the pandemic?

[11:30:07]