Return to Transcripts main page
At This Hour
Soon: Suspect In College Killings To Appear In Idaho Court; Republicans Expect At Least 1 To 2 More Ballots, Then Try To Adjourn; President Biden Delivers Remarks On Border Security. Aired 11:30a-12p ET
Aired January 05, 2023 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: 12: 30 Eastern Time. He was just extradited you'll remember from Pennsylvania last night. Gary Tuchman is in Idaho for us tracking all of this. Gary, what could happen today in court?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, here's what we know. Bryan Kohberger is inside the Les Latah County Jail behind me. One hour from now he will have his initial appearance in court. The courthouse is the same building as the jail.
In that initial appearance, he will not make a plea. It will be read his rights. Some bookkeeping will take place. Ultimately, there will be an arraignment where he will make a plea.
This is what's very important. We have been told that when the suspect got to Idaho, the probable cause affidavit would be unsealed and released. It hasn't been released yet. We expect that could happen at any time. It's important because we don't know very much about why police arrested this man in connection with the murders of four students at the University of Idaho. This affidavit will have a lot of information.
Now, the suspect traveled 13 hours to get there. He was accompanied on a private plane by Pennsylvania State Police. They made two refueling stops. They landed just across the state border in Pullman, Washington.
At that point, he got out of the plane, the suspect. They gave him a vest and a helmet for his security. Put him in a Ford f150 surrounded by sheriff's deputy cars from this county here in Idaho. They raced through the streets, got here 15 minutes. And right now, he's inside the jail where he was brought early yesterday evening. This is a death penalty state. Prosecutors will have to make a decision whether they will want to seek it, Kate.
BOLDUAN: All right, much more to come in an hour. Gary Tuchman's there for us. Gary, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Joining me now for more on this is Casey Jordan. She's a criminologist and attorney. It's good to see you again, Casey. So, he's going to be in court today. He did not quite an extradition, that whole process of getting him back to Idaho. Is that something -- just the mere fact that he wasn't fighting that extradition process and kind of how this has gone so far in being taken into custody, does that stand out to you?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST, BEHAVIORAL ANALYST & ATTORNEY: No, not at all because that is exactly the way that an innocent person would behave. And again, presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.
But this is not your ordinary killer. This is somebody who is highly intelligent, very organized, and absolutely knows the workings of our criminal justice system inside and out. He is going to be second- guessing. If we just go with the idea that we have our culprit, he is going to be streets ahead trying to figure out what are people thinking if I behave this way, if I behave another way? I need to behave the way that an innocent person would behave and that person would never find extradition. Of course, I have to get back to Idaho and find out what is this evidence that you use to give an arrest warrant for me.
So, I mean, this, in an hour, he will be in court in Idaho, 12:30 Eastern Standard Time. And after that appearance, that affidavit should be released and we're going to know so much more than we know right now.
BOLDUAN: And in terms of that, when we do get that -- when we do get that probable cause affidavit, is there something particular in there that you would hope to learn more about?
JORDAN: I think the big question -- we already know that they have connected his DNA to DNA at the scene through a forensic genealogy, so-called Family Tree technology. So, DNA, that's pretty damning. The white car, the white Elantra, very important. I've read reports that he has switched the license plate on it, you know, five days after the murders. This would be you know, a consciousness of guilt perhaps.
But I think what we're all waiting for is to find out if there was indeed a connection between him and the victims. I predict it's a very tangential connection if at all, that perhaps he knew who they were, had met one of the girls in the club perhaps, had felt rejected or rebuffed something like that, that they gleaned from their many, many interviews, more than 10,000 tips.
They -- everyone wants to know motive. And even though motive is certainly not required to get a conviction on anyone, human nature is that we want to know the why behind the crime.
JORDAN: So, if that affidavit sheds any light on that, that would probably be the most important thing. What is the connection? Was it targeted? Did he know them? What is the motive? That's what we are waiting with bated breath to find out.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. And I wanted to just kind of ask you more about kind of your working theory in that of what we know about the murders and this kind of situation. Even with a suspect charge, there is still that question of did the killer know the victims. Still has not been answered as you're making very clear. So, what is your working theory on this?
JORDAN: Well, I was one of the unpopular theorists from the beginning who thought this was an outlier, who really did not see this being the work of somebody in the inner circle because then it would suggest the motive was going to be revenge, vindictive, you know, drugs, anything, a payback, if you will. Because of the frenetic nature of this crime, most people jumped to the conclusion that it was a crime of passion or anger.
But I never really saw that. It was overkill. And that to me indicated this person was trying to fulfill some inner need for blood-letting, that it was fantasy-based, not emotion-based. And when we found out that this suspect is a Ph.D. criminology student, I have to say that there are some people who are attracted to Criminal Justice and Criminology for all the wrong reasons. It's because they feel more kinship to the criminal mind and want to crack it, want to get inside it, want to -- want to understand it because they can relate to it. And I'm wondering if Mr. Kohberger could be one of those people.
I believe that this was simply a power control killing that he thinks he is so smart, he can commit a crime and get away with it. He is arrogant. He is, by all accounts, fitting the profile that almost all of the investigative profilers and criminologists have worked up.
BOLDUAN: It's so interesting. You've also said that there's kind of nothing typical about this case from the very beginning. What do you mean by that?
JORDAN: Well, by the numbers, this is a mass murderer. But when we say mass murderer, especially on a college campus, we're thinking of a -- of a shooting. This is really the psychology of a serial killer. And we know that Pennsylvania is currently looking to see if they have any unsolved crimes there from the time when Mr. Kohberger lived in Pennsylvania when he was a student there, that had gone unsolved, which they might investigate to see if it's linked to him.
But the savage killing at night with a Rambo-style knife in a -- in a state that we're getting guns is super easy, it really indicated that was a level of sexual overtone to it. The picquerism, that the constant stabbing frenetic motion really simulates a sexual -- a sexual action. And the bottom line is that whoever did this didn't need to kill four people. Even if it was targeted, why kill the other three? And the answer is because whoever did this, liked it, enjoyed it, and it fulfilled some personal need he has inside of himself for power and control.
JORDAN: So, I have -- my real question is if it is Mr. Kohberger, and he loves power and control, will he talk or will he just be a stonewall who enjoys the controls making us want to know the answers and refusing to give it to him -- give them to us? On the flip side, if he understands the jig is up, he may want to dance with the media and stay in the limelight and control that. So, again after today, 12:30, so many answers will be revealed and then it's just a game of wait-and-see how he pleads and what happens next.
BOLDUAN: Yes, let's see what happens at 12:30. That will be very interesting. And when the -- and when the judge decides to release that probable cause affidavit, that's definitely the next key step. Thank you, Casey. I appreciate it.
So, in Utah, police there have made a tragic and disturbing discovery. A family of eight including five children were found shot and killed inside their home. Lucy Kafanov is gathering the details for us. She's joining us right now. Lucy, what are you learning about this?
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's not a lot at this stage, Kate. Police are expected to release more info later today. But the victims, all members of one family, were discovered when the authorities did a welfare check at a home in rural southwest Utah. All eight apparently died from gunshot wounds. And Enoch City police said this was an act of investigation but they don't believe there's a threat to the public or that there are any suspects at large.
Now, Enoch City is a tight-knit rural community of roughly 8000 people, it's about 180 miles northeast of Vegas, 245 miles south of Salt Lake City, you know, it's the kind of place where neighbors know one another. So, this murder -- making this murder, that much more shocking to the community. And Enoch City Manager Rob Dotson said the community was, in fact, devastated. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB DOTSON, ENOCH, UTAH CITY MANAGER: It's hard to describe in words the emotions that are going through the people who live here. We all know this family. Many of us have served with them in church, in community, and had gone to school with these individuals, and so this community at this time is hurting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAFANOV: Now, a welfare check is usually done when a neighbor perhaps raises concerns or someone hasn't been seen for an unusual period of time. But we don't know at this point, Kate, of any details about who requested this check or when. The city manager also said authorities don't have any info about a motive and that would -- it would likely take days or longer before they could reach any conclusions about what took place inside this home, Kate.
BOLDUAN: Yes. Lucy, thank you so much for that. I appreciate the update.
We do have some breaking news coming out of Ukraine. Vladimir Putin is proposing a temporary ceasefire there. We're going to tell you why, and how Ukraine is now responding. That's next.
BOLDUAN: Let's get back to Capitol Hill real quick because there's an update on the House speaker's race we need to get to you. A Republican source telling CNN they're going to try to hold potentially another vote as they don't have the numbers actually to adjourn once they've reconvened to continue negotiations. Does this make sense? Let's bring in Lauren Fox. She's got more details on this one. So, Lauren, just give the backstory about where we are right now because the question has been, how many more rounds of voting can Kevin McCarthy survive? They've been trying to pull off votes in order to negotiate, and now what do we have?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, a key question is going to be whether or not he can pick up any new votes on the floor if that is what decision they're going to make.
If they have to vote because they can't get off the floor and they don't have the votes to adjourn, it means that Kevin McCarthy is going to be in a position where everyone is going to be watching if he loses additional votes. We just spoke with Kevin McCarthy, our colleague Jessica Dean saying that he still believes they are having positive discussions. Although he did not say when he predicts he could lock up this speaker's race.
That, of course, very key here, Kate because like you noted, some of his allies are even beginning to say this has gone on too long. And they aren't really sure how much longer Kevin McCarthy can keep this up without just making really a mockery of what's happening here on the House floor, Kate.
BOLDUAN: All right, Lauren, thank you for that. Let's see what happens in just a few short minutes.
We also have some breaking news out in Ukraine I want to bring to all of you. Vladimir Putin is proposing a temporary ceasefire in Ukraine for tomorrow and Saturday so that Orthodox Christians can attend Christmas services. Scott McLean is live in Kyiv for us on this one. Scott, has Ukraine responded to this proposal, and what they're -- what are you hearing?
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we're hearing bits and pieces so far, Kate. Just a bit of context here. So, this proposal originally came from the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, a man who has been openly supportive of Russia's war effort, in fact, said in a recent sermon, that military service washes away all sin. So, his proposal was for a ceasefire beginning tomorrow, which is new -- or sorry, a Christmas Eve in the Orthodox phase through all of Christmas Day, which is on Saturday. The Kremlin took him up on his offer. A statement from President Putin ordered troops to a ceasefire at that time for this 36-hour period.
But we haven't gotten a response from President Zelenskyy yet, but we have gotten one from his office. An adviser to President Zelenskyy called this a cynical trap and said that the Russian Federation must leave the occupied territories before there's any kind of a truce. And he said, keep hypocrisy to yourself.
We are also getting reaction from some ordinary Ukrainians, a man in Kherson, for instance, living along the front line, living in the line of fire said he doesn't expect any of this to change the reality on the ground. Perhaps at the highest levels, the Russians may not launch missiles, may not have drone strikes, things like that, but he doesn't suggest that this will change the behavior of the soldiers who are along the front line, the line of contact as they say. Another soldier said, "I don't believe this BS."
And the timing here is interesting here, Kate because President Erdogan, the president of Turkey, has been trying to use his warm relations with both Moscow and Kyiv to broker a more longer lasting ceasefire in order to facilitate peace talks. Though, that seems extremely unlikely at this point, given that the Kremlin has made clear that they're not interested in talking unless Ukraine accepts that the territory reality has changed on the ground, something that the Ukrainians obviously are not willing to accept at all, Kate.
BOLDUAN: Scott, thanks so much for that. So, moments ago -- I really appreciate it.
Moments ago, everyone, a group of court documents has just been released in the Idaho murder investigation, including the probable cause affidavit that we were talking about just a short time ago. We're going through those documents. We're going to bring you that right after this break.
BOLDUAN: All right, developing right now. The probable cause affidavit and other documents have just been unsealed and released publicly. This, in the case that is being built against the man accused of killing those four college students In Idaho. We're going through these documents as we speak but as we're doing that, let me bring in Casey Jordan once again, criminologist and attorney.
Casey, talk to me is what is the -- what have you seen in here so far as we're going through this that is -- that sticking out to you?
JORDAN: Kate, my heart is pounding because I just got the document open and I've only read about a third of it. But one of -- the first thing that jumped out, the knife sheath was left at the scene. We always predicted this because we were like how do they know what's a K-bar knife? And it says that in one of the bedrooms apparently next to the bed was a leather knife sheath of the knife and that the suspect's DNA was found on one of the snaps on that night sheet. This is incredibly damning.
Now, we know where the DNA came from, and we know that this person left a knife sheath. I'm only partway through the affidavit but the next thing that was absolutely horrifying, sounds like a slasher film is that apparently one of the roommates who survived downstairs was awake. Xana had gotten a DoorDash delivery at 4:00 a.m., and one of the roommates heard the dog barking, the dog that belong to Kaylee Goncalves, and opened her door, lift up the stairs, thought she heard crying from Xana Kernodle through and then this is the most frightening part of all, male voicing, don't worry, I'm here to help you -- I'm going to help you. She says she saw a male figure --
BOLDUAN: But for laying that, I'm seeing -- yes, I'm seeing that on page four here. Let me -- if I can, I will just read that part because I'm seeing this --
JORDAN: Please do.
BOLDUAN: I'm catching up to you. This part -- DM stated that she opened her door for the third time after she heard crying and saw a figure clad in black clothing and a mask that covered the person's mouth and nose walking towards her. She described the figure as 5'10'' or taller, not very muscular but athletically built with bushy eyebrows. The male walks past her as she stood in a "frozen shock phase" and then the male walks towards the back sliding door and she locked herself then in her room after seeing that male. That is terrifying, Casey.
JORDAN: I think it was so terrifying that she was unable to actually do anything like call 911, frozen in terror, probably afraid she was having a nightmare. I mean, this is the stuff of nightmares. This is the stuff of slasher films. We certainly cannot blame the surviving roommates for being horrified.
Now, that we have an idea that they didn't actually sleep through the whole thing, they were absolutely traumatized by what they heard and witnessed that day. I mean the affidavit also talks about whimpering being picked up on a local security camera. Everyone has always asked why wasn't someone awakened by the dog barking. Well, it turns out someone was awakened by the dog barking.
The dog by the way apparently was found in a separate room by police the next day when they arrived, very likely that the killer locked the dog in one of the unoccupied rooms, which would explain again why the dog was there the next day but unharmed. The fact that the figure was seen, the description, height, the dark clothing the face mask, the bushy eyebrows, this is going to be very key because we thought we had no eyewitnesses to this crime, and yet one of those roommates apparently saw the figure.
And it will be really interesting to find out if this goes to court, is Bryan Kohberger ready to go to trial and face down the roommate who saw him and still insist that he's innocent, or does this change everything when he reads these details, Kate, is he going to be thinking wow, I'm in a state that has the death penalty, but does not have the insanity defense, maybe I should be talking to the prosecutors about a plea deal?
And part of that plea deal if that -- if things go the way I'm predicting, would include articulating exactly what happened that night. I can almost guarantee it. So, I mean, we still need to continue reading the affidavit. You're further ahead than I am at this point, Kate. BOLDUAN: I'm also looking in here and I just skipped ahead to skim through, Casey, it looks like these officers and part of the team -- oh I'm also being told right now we have other breaking news we need to get to. Casey, standby. President Biden coming out to speak right now about border security. Let's go there.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, these actions alone that I'm going to announce today aren't going to fix our entire immigration system but they can help us a good deal in better managing what is a difficult challenge.
On my first day in office, some of you may recall, I've covered this area and covered it well, I sent Congress a comprehensive piece of legislation that would completely overhaul what has been a broken immigration system for a long time, cracking down on illegal immigration, strengthening illegal immigration, and protecting dreamers. Those who have a temporary protective status like farm workers who all are part of the fabric of our nation. But congressional Republicans refused to consider my comprehensive plan. And they rejected my recent requests for an additional $3.5 billion to secure the border and funds for 2000 new asylum personnel, another asylum officers and personnel, and 100 new immigration judges, so people don't have to wait years to get their claims adjudicated which they have a right to make a claim legally.
And the failure to pass and fund this comprehensive plan has increased the challenges that we're seeing in our Southwest border. No one knows this better than the vice president.
And to truly understand what's happening there, it's important to step back and see our -- see the bigger picture here. You know, I know it's hard to see but because our politics has been so divisive, you know, it's getting much better than you've all observed but I spend so much time divisive, that it clouds the picture. I mean, it clouds the picture. But let me explain what I'm going to do as clearly and plainly as I can, I know it's a complicated issue. I don't want to pretend there's anything easy about it.
People come to America for a whole lot of different reasons, to seek new opportunity in what is the strongest economy in the world. I can't blame them for wanting to do it. A flee oppression, you know, to the -- to the freest nation in the world. They chase their own American dream in the greatest nation in the world. And the story of America is a story of so many of your families, including mine going back to the mid-1800s from Ireland.
Now, there are a number of ways to immigrate to America legally under our existing laws. For example, an American citizen -- an American citizen, can sponsor an immediate family member from another country. An American company can sponsor an employee from another country. There are visas for students to study in our colleges in other special categories. And regardless of the legal pathway they pursue -- the process -- the process is to require everyone to be involved in following the law. That's the notion.
There are laws to get here legally. That includes another legal way for someone to come to America by seeking asylum because they're fleeing persecution like a lot of our ancestors did as well. And for many people, that's what's happening on our Southwest border now. Over the past several years, thousands of people move fleeing from Central and South America and the Caribbean countries roll by oppressive dictators, including Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and escaping gang violence, which has the same impact in Haiti.
Currently, these four countries account for most of the people traveling to Mexico to start a new life by getting at the -- to the American border and trying to cross. But instead of a safe and orderly process at the border, we have a patchwork system that simply doesn't work as it should. We don't have enough asylum officers or personnel to determine whether people qualify for asylum. There is a standard by which you have to meet. You don't -- we don't have enough immigrant judges -- immigration judges to adjudicate the claims of immigrants.
In fact, the previous administration used the role called Title 42. To deal with -- to deal with the pandemic, A rapidly -- to rapidly expel people who crossed the border. It was designed to deal with a pandemic, but it's used as a means to expel people at the border. People have been turned away under Title 42. And they're not -- and they're not barred from trying to come back. Have been turned away, they go back, they try again, they try again. Well, you know, they can and they do try to re-enter the United States again and again, which makes the problem that borders -- at the border even worse.
And under the United States Supreme Court, this Title 42 later this year, my administration will -- and they will make a decision finally, what to do about Title 42. In the meantime, my administration will continue to use that authority as the Supreme Court has required. And until Congress passes the funds, and a comprehensive immigration plan to fix the system completely, my administration is going to work to make things better at the border using the tools that we have available to us now.
Today, my administration is taking several steps to stiffen enforcement for those who tried to come without a legal right to stay and to put in place a faster process --
BOLDUAN: All right, we're going to jump.