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The Amanpour Hour

The Outcast Dictators Club; Interview With former National Security Adviser Robert O'Brien; Interview With Special Envoy David Satterfield; Interview With Designer Diane Von Furstenberg; Interview With Director Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy; When Musical Diplomacy Won Hearts And Minds In North Korea; Interview With Doctor Who Saved Yahya Sinwar's Life Yuval Bitton. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired June 22, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:39]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here is where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: New world order as outcast dictators press the flesh in Pyongyang. How will America's next president challenge this anti-U.S. axis? Biden and Trump insiders make their case.

From my archive, flashback to when "The Star-Spangled Banner" was played in North Korea in a bygone age for musical diplomacy.

Also this hour, the doctor who saved the Hamas leader's life and what he learned about Yahya Sinwar.

YUVAL BITTON, DOCTOR WHO SAVED YAHYA SINWAR'S LIFE: He's willing to sacrifice even 100,000 Palestinians in order to ensure the survival of his rule.

AMANPOUR: Then, the Palestinian struggles through the eyes of an award-winning author and fearless human rights champion.

And legendary designer, Diane von Furstenberg on rockstar threesomes and taking charge.

DIANE VON FURSTENBERG, FASHION DESIGNER: I just don't understand the concept of being intimidated by your age. I think it's a victory.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

And we begin with the outcast dictators club and the foreign policy crises facing Americas next president. Nearly a quarter century since his last visit, Russian President

Vladimir Putin was back in North Korea this week for a splashy display of mutual cooperation with dictator Kim Jong-un.

Putin needs North Korean arms for his ongoing war against Ukraine. Kim wants Russian cash, military technology, and political legitimacy in return.

The visit comes at a critical time in the shifting world order as the anti-U.S. axis -- Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran uses every opportunity to undermine American leadership. Whoever wins the presidency in November faces a daunting checklist of foreign policy issues.

So this hour were asking people in the room how Trump and Biden would navigate these troubled diplomatic waters. In a moment, I'll speak to Ambassador David Satterfield, a career diplomat who was one of Biden's special Middle East envoys; and the former ambassador to Turkey.

But we begin with Robert O'Brien, who was Trump's national security advisor from 2019 to 2021. In our exclusive conversation, I began by asking him what a Trump administration would have made of the Putin- Kim summit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT O'BRIEN, FORMER U.S. NATIONAL ADVISER: Well, Christiane, it's obviously very concerning because the North Koreans have a massive amount of artillery shells, and they're providing those to the Russians who are killing Ukrainians with them, our partners, and you know, we're solidly behind Ukraine, and it's a very concerning situation.

AMANPOUR: So, I just want to read from your op-ed. Basically, you said about Biden-China summits. "This is a policy of pageantry over substance. Meetings and summits are activities, not achievements."

But when I spoke to the former South Korean foreign minister, she said that the Trump-Kim summits were very similar. That they was a lot of pageantry, but very little impact. I spoke to her earlier this year. Take a listen to what she told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KANG KYUNG-WHA, FORMER SOUTH KOREAN FOREIGN MINISTER: This is a continuation of a pattern that began after the debacle of the 2019 Hanoi Summit between the United States and North Korea. After that, they immediately went back to launching the missiles, and that has picked up speed, more frequency in the recent years.

This is the typical Trump leadership on these issues. Will, but very little follow up and support from the working levels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So what do you say to that? Because this could come up again. And there was hope that there could be a resolution of a lot of problems when Trump met Kim Jong-Un. But no follow up, even at the working level. Does that trouble you?

O'BRIEN: Well, yes. I would disagree with the former foreign minister on that front. I mean, keep in mind, Christiane, when President Trump took office, President Obama told him that this was going to be the most difficult foreign policy question he faced.

[11:04:52]

O'BRIEN: That North Korea was busy testing nuclear weapons. They were launching and testing long-range ICBMs and missiles that, you know, could reach Hawaii, maybe the West Coast of the United States.

And so, President Trump took a peace through strength approach to North Korea. We moved a carrier battle group into the Yellow Sea and put a lot of pressure on the North Koreans.

And when they realized that they weren't going to get away with it, they changed tacks and then we had some (INAUDIBLE) diplomacy with them. And keep in mind, they promised to denuclearize. They promised to end their nuclear program on the peninsula.

Now, that didn't, in fact, end up happening. But keep in mind there was nuclear testing during the entire Trump administration because we showed strength couple with some tough diplomacy.

AMANPOUR: Except that now they have continued their military testing, their military threats, and they are now huge supporters, some say that Putin would not do very well without North Korea or Iran. So, this sort of axis has built.

You know, a lot has been said about what Trump might do, say, et cetera. He's already said that, you know, he has a brilliant plan to end the war in 24 hours, et cetera.

Do you believe -- because some of the things he said leads people to believe that he would encourage Ukraine to essentially sue for peace.

O'BRIEN: Well, President Trump has never recommended -- I've never heard him say that we should give in to Putin's demands. I mean, no one is on board with that.

But we've got to -- all wars end around a table. And we have to recognize that. But right now, the Russians have no incentive to come to the table. Vladimir Putin thinks he's winning the war. He thinks time is on his side.

AMANPOUR: You criticize the Biden administration or the Obama administration and other Europeans for not being strong enough after 2014 and many, many would agree with you.

Do you think that Trump administration should -- would you recommend a lot more weapons to Ukraine the kind it wants, a lot more anti- aircraft air defenses, aircraft, long-range artillery, the kind of stuff that actually makes a difference in this kind of war? O'BRIEN: Well, we should have gotten that equipment at the beginning. Remember, the Poles wanted to send their MIGS to Ukraine, and it was the Biden administration that stopped them from sending their MIGS to Ukraine. So absolutely, we should give them the weapons they need to defend themselves and to -- and to fight and win.

But the real thing is the half measures on the sanctions. But if we put heavy duty sanctions on the Russians and on their oil sales, that might be enough to bring Putin to the table. And I think that's what President Trump has in mind.

AMANPOUR: All right.

So, then the question is, who does Trump identify more with? There is a big, you know, body of thought that he identifies with these strong men, people like Putin, people like Xi. Let me just read you, and I'm sure you've read this before, or had it read to you.

In 1990, President Trump then, he was Donald Trump, gave an interview to "Playboy Magazine". And he basically criticized Mikhail Gorbachev, who was the Soviet leader then, for failing to hold the Soviet Empire together, not a firm enough hand.

And he simultaneously praised the Chinese communist leadership for crushing the student uprising at Tiananmen Square. "They were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength," is what he said.

So, there is a real concern in the democratic world about the impact on democracy and the thriving of autocracy and this kind of strongman behavior under a second Trump administration.

O'BRIEN: Well, Christiane, we've got four years to show why we -- why people should trust Donald Trump.

We had no invasion of Ukraine. We had no massacre in Israel. No invasion in Israel. Taiwan was safe. We ended the war against ISIS with a rare victory in that war. We had peace deals in the Middle East with the Abraham Accords, in Europe with Serbia-Kosovo, with healing the Gulf Rift in the Gulf.

So I think people can kind of look at the world as it is today and look at how it was four years ago and say was the world better, am I better off now or was I better off four years ago. And I think the answer is especially when it comes to foreign affairs and geopolitics, it's a pretty easy answer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, the response to that from Biden's former White House special envoy for Middle East humanitarian affairs, Ambassador David Satterfield.

And then after that, why legendary fashionista Diane von Furstenberg has no regrets.

We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VON FURSTENBERG: Why a businessman can go on tour, arrive at the Beverly Hills Hotel and you know, go out with one man and one girl and another go the next day. And why can't a woman do that? I mean, why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:09:25]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now before the break, you heard the former national security adviser, Robert O'Brien, give us his foreign policy pitch for a second Trump presidency.

Joining me now is David Satterfield, a career diplomat, Biden's special envoy, and former ambassador to Turkey.

David Satterfield, Ambassador, welcome to the program.

DAVID SATTERFIELD, SPECIAL ENVOY FOR PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: Happy to be here.

AMANPOUR: So one of the huge issues is obviously the raging war in Europe, 80 years after D-Day, after the end of World War II.

Robert O'Brien and President Trump basically criticized the Obama administration when Biden was vice president for not confronting Putin enough during the 2014 invasion and annexation of Crimea.

[11:14:52]

AMANPOUR: And also, if you remember, not giving Ukraine lethal weapons like the Javelins when they needed them.

What -- what is your answer to that before we go on into the future?

SATTERFIELD: Christiane, I think there's no question that the limited response after the annexation of Crimea led Putin to believe that he could make further advances on the territory of Ukraine or elsewhere without significant challenge from the United States and the international community.

That was, in retrospect, a significant error. With respect though to the approach to Ukraine after the Russian invasion, the administration engaged in quite extraordinary and almost unprecedented campaign prior to the invasion of making very clear to the world, privately and publicly, that we knew exactly what Putin was planning to do.

But I can tell you this. The intent of the administration was to avoid if at all possible, an escalation with a nuclear power, Russia, that could involve directly the United States, the wisdom or ill wisdom of that. Again, is a matter for historians.

The point is, the U.S. is now robustly supporting Ukraine including in a very selective fashion, the targeting of those facilities in Russia that are being used for specific attacks on Ukraine.

AMANPOUR: What can an American administration do to make sure North Korea doesn't act against their interest in the way it's doing right now?

SATTERFIELD: Well, the approach that has the greatest chance of success is a multilateral one, not the unilateral one. It is assembling and then sustaining a coalition of parties who do have influence with Pyongyang to the extent that any country or combination of countries do in that very unique place to make clear that there will be no support for the economy, no support for or legitimization for a Korea's bandit behavior. And that's the term to use -- banditry.

This is a regime which engages in behaviors not just at the level of ballistic missile challenges or nuclear programs that go beyond the realm of international conduct.

AMANPOUR: Let me turn to the Middle East, your area of most recent specialty.

And when we had Oslo and there was Yitzak Rabin, there was the king of Jordan? There was Yasser Arafat, there was a period in which it appears that all the convening powers and the parties themselves were on a certain route.

Now that obviously didn't last. It didn't -- and it failed, but the latest several years have been, I guess, the end of the Obama administration and then whatever happened in the Trump administration.

Essentially, there was almost no engagement on the Palestinian issue. Do you think that a second -- any future American president can avoid putting the Palestinian issue at the center of Israel's need for security, of the desire to have normalization with Saudi Arabia as well as the U.A.E., et cetera.

SATTERFIELD: Christiane, I think it's critical that any U.S. administration pursue two courses in parallel one is to continue to underscore as this administration is doing, that a two-state resolution -- a credible pathway to a two-state outcome through negotiations has to be the overarching frame in which ultimate security, well-being of a quiet miracle of a normal life as Bill Clinton spoke to, can be achieved.

But at the same time their needs to be a strategic vision for the region as a whole. You've got to pursue both. The Palestinian-Israeli course and the broader regional course for stability and peace.

AMANPOUR: And finally, I read out to Robert O'Brien a few quotes that Donald Trump, when he was just a businessman, had made to "Playboy", in other words, regretting that Gorbachev at the time was too soft a Soviet leader, that the Chinese, who crushed Tiananmen Square actually got, you know, order back. I just wonder whether you think President Biden's mission to bolster

democracy against the autocratic world is sustainable now and how you would rate it given what we're seeing, for instance, in Europe, right? We're seeing these latest elections favoring quite a lot of the far- right to the extremists.

SATTERFIELD: Christiane, the message that democracy not demagoguery -- that the advance of human interests and human values, not a resort to fear and fear-mongering is the best way forward for the world, not just for the United States, is a message that has to be repeated.

[11:19:45]

SATTERFIELD: And 80 years after D-Day, this is an even more profound message that freedom democracy is indeed the best course for the world, because the alternative has led the world into tragedy, into horror too many times in the past.

AMANPOUR: Ambassador David Satterfield, thank you so much, indeed.

SATTERFIELD: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, something completely different -- rockstar threesomes and no regrets. Woman in charge, Diane von Furstenberg's extraordinary life is being captured in a new documentary she and the director join me when we come back.

[11:20:24]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Up next, two remarkable women in their respective fields. Diane von Furstenberg is a legendary designer and women's rights activist whose iconic wrap dress revolutionized everyday fashion.

Her life and career are captured in a new documentary, "Woman in Charge" directed by the two-time academy award winning filmmaker Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy. Sharmeen and Diane talked to me about age, wisdom and close encounters with David Bowie and Mick Jagger.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Diane von Furstenberg, Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy -- welcome to the program.

DIANE VON FURSTENBERG, DESIGNER: Hello.

SHARMEEN OBAID-CHINOY, DIRECTOR, "DIANE VON FURSTENBERG: WOMAN IN CHARGE": Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Well listen, one of the most extraordinary things is how you decided to start the program. Diane has always owned herself and always been authentic. And this clip we're going to play right now because I just laughed out loud when I saw it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) VON FURSTENBERG: I don't understand why so many people do not embrace age. I've always been attracted by wrinkles. You know, age means living. You shouldn't say how old you are. You should say, how long have you lived?

If you take all your wrinkles away, you know, the map of your life is different. I don't really want to erase anything from my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Diane, are there many women that, you know, I mean, even younger than you, who would be that honest about age?

VON FURSTENBERG: But I'm -- what I don't understand -- I don't understand dishonest about age. I mean, age means you have lived. So, you have to honor that.

And when you age, you already have -- you know, you already have the years before. So, I don't understand the concept of, oh, not wanting to say your age.

I'm 77 years old, and I couldn't be a week younger, because last week, I learned a lot.

So, it's -- I just don't understand the concept of being intimidated by your age.

AMANPOUR: I know --

VON FURSTENBERG: I think it's a victory.

AMANPOUR: Yes, that's great. But you work in the fashion industry. You live in New York. You know so many women who are trying to erase the wrinkles and jack up their faces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VON FURSTENBERG: She said, merci beaucoup. She gave the address.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: You say that you know, 18 months after your mother emerged alive from Auschwitz, you were born.

AMANPOUR: There's an extraordinary scene whereby some of your mother -- the fragments of the little letters your mother wrote, as she was on the way, you know, essentially to the concentration camp that were eventually found because you found them decades later, I'm going to play this clip from the documentary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VON FURSTENBERG: She took some cardboard and she wrote to her parents and she threw it in the -- on the street hoping that somebody would find it and she never -- you see she said merci beaucoup, she gave the address and she wrote to her parents. "Mommy and my little Daddy. Your little Lily is leaving. Where she is

going, she doesn't know. But God is everywhere, isn't he?

So, wherever she goes, she'll never be alone or unhappy. I want you to be both very brave. I'm leaving with a smile, I swear."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I think that's extraordinary too. I leave with a smile is -- it takes something to be able to write that then.

VON FURSTENBERG: It wasn't true. I mean, it's not like she left with a smile, but she wanted her parents to think that she --

AMANPOUR: Yes.

VON FURSTENBERG: And she did survive. You know, she survived 14 months and she always said that she felt that she survived because her mother's will. Yes.

AMANPOUR: And I wonder, Diane, you're sitting next to Sharmeen, I mean, obviously a younger generation, but also from a country, let's face it, Pakistan, that simply would never be wearing wrap dresses.

What does it feel like to be a successful woman in -- you know, in Pakistan?

OBAID-CHINOY: Well, I will say this, that I'm very much a product of Pakistan. I was born and raised there. I found my voice in Pakistan. I live and work out of Pakistan. The space exists for women like myself to be there.

[11:29:46]

OBAID-CHINOY: We have to continue to fight every single day for our rights.

But let's be honest, women in America are fighting for their reproductive rights these days. Women in Europe are fighting for their rights.

There are giant steps being taken around the world for women who are being pushed back.

Some of us live in countries which are far more difficult for women than others. But I will say that women like myself stay in our countries, we speak out and we try and push the narrative forward so that our children and our daughters have a better tomorrow.

AMANPOUR: And I wonder -- you know, I was actually very interested in -- when you touched on Diane's sexuality. And I mean, there was that amazing clip where, you know, Diane talks about having had an affair or, I don't know how you describe it, but with Warren Beatty and Ryan O'Neal in the same weekend and just nearly went into a threesome with Mick Jagger and David Bowie.

I mean, that's pretty hot stuff. Why did you want to include that?

VON FURSTENBERG: Well, you should really ask me why I even said that. And the truth is that, at that time, you know, it was something to boast about.

Why a businessman can go on tour, arrive at the Beverly Hills Hotel and, you know, go out with one man and with one girl and another girl the next day? And why can't a woman do that? I mean, why?

And so, it's -- I mean, it's part of, you know, just speaking the truth, and I was quite proud of it. I mean, I actually still am. They were hot. They were in their early 30s.

AMANPOUR: Diane von Furstenberg, Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy -- thank you so much.

OBAID-CHINOY: Thank you.

VON FURSTENBERG: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And the documentary, "Diane von Furstenberg, Woman in Charge" is out on Hulu on Tuesday this coming week, June 25th.

Up next, we take you back to a time when nuclear diplomacy got musical assist.

From my archive, when the New York Philharmonic won hearts and minds in Pyongyang.

[11:31:50]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

We now turn to the most reclusive nation on earth, North Korea, known as the Hermit Kingdom. Kim Jung-un's grand display of pomp and pageantry for Vladimir Putin this past week signaled the deepening ties between these two strong men who have nurtured their growing anti-American alliance since Russia's 2022, full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

North Korea and the United States have had a prickly relationship ever since the 1950s in the Korean War but there have been rare breakthroughs as the U.S. tried to contain Pyongyang's nuclear ambitions.

One of those came in 2008, amid a successful attempt by President George W. Bush to persuade Kim Jong-un's father, Kim Jong-il, to actually dismantle their main reactor.

That crucial opening also included a rare opportunity for journalists to visit the Hermit Kingdom.

From my archive when American musical diplomacy won hearts and minds in North Korea.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: North Korea is putting on quite a show for its American guests. There's excitement in the air. The government has flipped the switch on its power-starved capital.

The lights are on. The curtain is up and the audience stands as the New York Philharmonic plays North Korea's national anthem.

Bu who could have imagined this "The Star-Spangled Banner" played in public in Pyongyang wringing out through this concert hall and through these North Korean homes. An important political breakthrough said one top North Korean official since both countries are technically still at war.

ZARIN MEHTA, FORMER PRESIDENT, NEW YORK PHILHARMONIC: I think if it can help to create peace. That's a lofty goal, but I think it's something that needs to be done.

AMANPOUR: New York Philharmonic president Zarin Mehta knows that tonight all eyes will be on the musicians and all ears on every note. They may just be another concert with no ramifications at all.

ZEHTA: In which case we've got another free concert.

AMANPOUR: The Philharmonic picked this program Wagner's opera "Lohengrin" --

[11:39:48] AMANPOUR: -- Dvorak's "New World" symphony and George Gershwin's classic.

For conductor Lorin Maazel this was a pivotal moment.

LORIN MAAZEL, CONDUCTOR, NEW YORK PHILHARMONIC: there seemed to be like a feeling of camaraderie, practically. So it was not them and us.

AMANPOUR: Those who couldn't attend the concert could watch it on live television.

JON YU-SONG, FORMER NORTH KOREAN OFFICIAL: To be honest with you I never thought that it would be possible.

AMANPOUR: Jon Yu-song (ph) is a former high-ranking official with North Korea's state symphony. He and his family watched from their living room.

JON: These events show the will to improve the relations between our countries.

AMANPOUR: But it wasn't until the encore that the ice finally melted. This is, Arirang, a famous and favorite folk song for all Koreans. It's the story of a man and a woman separated by circumstances beyond their control, a musical metaphor perhaps for Korean reunification.

And tonight these North Koreans loved this American gesture.

Neither the orchestra, nor the audience wanted it to end.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: It was an extraordinary moment in time, but it did come to a screeching end after Kim Jong-il's death three years later.

On that same trip though, he had wanted to show the world through CNN that the top-secret nuclear plant in Yongbyon was being mothballed and later even called us back to witness them blowing up their water- cooling tower.

Today, there is no meaningful U.S. diplomacy with Kim Jong-un, who is now believed to have nuclear weapons and lots of ammunition and other weapons, which he is supplying to Putin's war in Ukraine.

Coming up on the program in his first international television interview, the Israeli doctor who saved Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar's life opens up about being in the room with the mastermind of October 7, responsible also for the murder of his nephew.

[11:43:06]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

When it comes to the Israel-Hamas war, getting a glimpse into the thinking of the Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, the mastermind behind October 7th massacres against Israel, is near impossible.

In his first television interview outside Israel, the man who once saved Sinwar's life gave us just that, insight into the mind of the man in charge of the Israeli hostages now, and whether or not to call a ceasefire, directing the war from 50 feet underground.

As the dentist then-head of intelligence in Israel's prison system, Yuval Bitton saved Sinwar from a potentially lethal brain abscess and spent countless hours studying and analyzing him.

He also blames Sinwar directly for planning the attacks that killed his nephew, Tamir Adar.

And he joined me from Tel Aviv to recount this remarkable story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Yuval, you said that on the morning of October 7th, you knew immediately who had planned this massacre. How come?

BITTON (through translator): Because I know the person who planned and conceived and initiated this criminal attack. I have known him since 1996, and not only him, but the entire Hamas leadership in Gaza. And it was clear to me that this is what they were planning while they were still in prison, and this is the plan of Hamas. It was very clear to me.

AMANPOUR: You are talking about Yahya Sinwar. And you said that when you realized what happened on October 7th, you were kind of tormented by what you did for him in jail. You essentially saved his life. Tell me about that story.

BITTON: In 2004, I saved Sinwar's life in prison. I was the doctor who diagnosed the problem he had.

[11:49:46]

BITTON: When he explained to me what was happening to him, I diagnosed it as a stroke. And together with a general practitioner, we decided to take him to the hospital.

He arrived at the hospital. The diagnosis was that he had abscess in the brain, and he was operated on that day, thus saving his life, because if it had exploded, he would have died.

He thanked me and the doctors for saving his life. He also told me that on the day he was released in the Gilad Shalit deal in 2011 that he owed me his and one day he will repay it.

And as you understand, he repaid it on October 7th, and that he was also directly responsible for the murder of my nephew in Kibbutz Nir Oz.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you what you learned about Sinwar and Hamas in jail?

BITTON: I had many hours, hundreds of hours of conversation with Sinwar, both as a dentist and as an intelligence officer.

AMANPOUR: What impression did you get of his plans, of his goals?

BITTON: I learned from him and I learned from the other leaders, it was clear to me that Sinwar reflects the Hamas Gaza worldview. Sinwar told me clearly in 2004 that they would be ready to sign a hudna (ph), a truce, for 20 years because the State of Israel is currently a strong state.

But he also told me that in 20 years, he estimates that we will be weakened because of internal struggles between us within Israeli society. And as soon as they recognize that we are weak, they will attack us.

And they also said clearly that we, as Jews, have no place on these lands, on the lands on which the State of Israel is located.

Therefore, it's only a matter of time and timing that they will act against us and try to expel us from the place where we live.

This is a worldview that they did not hide. He told me that explicitly. But his way was much more extreme than others. His thought that this conflict can only be resolved by force and the struggle they are waging against us, that Hamas is waging, is a religious struggle. The war is a religious war.

It is not a nationalist war. It is not about establishing a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, it's all Palestine.

AMANPOUR: Yuval, now he apparently, according to Israeli intelligence I think, Sinwar is still somewhere in those tunnels in Gaza, still apparently calling the shots nine months, eight months into this war.

When you think about his mental state now and who he is, the person you know, what do you think he's thinking about ceasefire, about anything, about releasing the hostages that still remain?

BITTON: But Sinwar thinks only about the continuity of his rule. He is willing to sacrifice even 100,000 Palestinians in order to ensure the survival of his rule. He is willing to pay with the lives of militants, Hamas members, civilians. He doesn't care.

And therefore, Israel's mistake is that it did not create an alternative to Hamas' rule and didn't replace Hamas' rule and didn't allow an improved version of the Fatah or Palestinian Authority forces to enter in order to make clear to Sinwar that he has lost everything, both his military capability but mostly, his authority in Gaza.

That would have caused Sinwar to make a deal to return our hostages in exchange for prisoners.

Today, he feels he is in a powerful position. He is running the negotiations while still operating from within Gaza and still controls the areas from which the IDF evacuated.

He also controls the humanitarian aid, and therefore, he feels strong and won't sign an agreement to release the hostages unless the IDF withdraws from Gaza and the fighting ends.

AMANPOUR: Yuval Bitton, thank you very much indeed for your information and your insight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: It is an extraordinary encounter, an extraordinary story.

And up next on the program, the Palestinian author, lawyer and human rights activist Raja Shehadeh on missed opportunities for peace in the Middle East.

We'll be right back.

[11:54:18]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, we round out this hour with a distinguished Palestinian author, lawyer, and activist. Raja Shehadeh is the founder of the pioneering human rights organization, Al Haq. He's also written several acclaimed books, including the Orwell-prize winning "Palestinian Walks". Shehadeh's latest work, "What Does Israel Fear From Palestine?" is a profound exploration of the conflict in the Middle East and the path to peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: What did you learn from everything you saw as you were growing up and has that been changed irrevocably -- irrevocably since October 7 or not?

RAJA SHEHADEH, AUTHOR, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, I have learned that the only way is to make peace with Israel, it's more land with two nations, Israeli nation and the Palestinian nation. They have to live together.

[11:59:47]

SHEHADEH: And my father was adamant that they will have to live together and we have to find a way to live together. And I have continued with that vision.

But since October 7 it's become much more difficult because they've dehumanized the Palestinians to such an extent that it's difficult now to imagine how we can make peace with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: "What Does Israel Fear From Palestine?" is available now and you can watch our longer conversation on my show on Monday, which starts at 7:00 p.m. in central Europe.

That's all we have time for now. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at cnn.com/podcast and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching. And I'll see you again next week.