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The Amanpour Hour
Interview With Former Director Of The National Institutes Of Allergy And Infectious Diseases Dr. Anthony Fauci; Interview With British Political Strategist Alastair Campbell And Political Commentator David Frum; Israeli Forces Deemed Abusive By U.S. Now Guiding Gaza Warfare; Archive: Interview With Tennis Titan Serena Williams; How To Lose An Election And Ingratiate People. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired July 13, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:00:38]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR. Here's where we're headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Up first.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: From a mental standpoint, the last time I saw him, he seemed fine to me.
AMANPOUR: America's most recognizable doctor, Anthony Fauci on what he's witnessed about age in the executive branch and also the next possible pandemic.
Also this hour how Biden can change the conversation.
ALASTAIR CAMPBELL, FORMER BRITISH POLITICAL STRATEGIST UNDER TONY BLAIR: I think the truth is, every time he's on TV at the moment, you kind of have your heart in your mouth (ph).
AMANPOUR: Concerns about Trump's rambling rallies.
DAVID FRUM, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: If Donald Trump was just a dribbling fool I'd be a lot less worried.
AMANPOUR: And how to lose elections and still be gracious.
RISHI SUNAK, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We can argue vigorously as a prime minister, and I did over the past six weeks, but still respect each other.
AMANPOUR: Then exclusive CNN reporting reveals Israeli forces deemed abusive by the United States and now shaping the campaign in Gaza.
Then as another tennis great calls game, set and match on his career, from my archive, Serena Williams on retirement, double standards, and what it takes to be the best.
SERENA WILLIAMS, TENNIS PLAYER: And every time we overcame that challenge, he created Venus and Serena.
AMANPOUR: And finally hip hop meets high-brow in a collaboration that's been 30 years in the making.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Looming over the gathering of world leaders at the D.C. NATO summit this week was the uncertainty about President Biden's future and a potential second Trump term. Questions about Biden's age and fitness have consumed both campaigns with Biden's attempt to assuage those "got to go" fears at a press conference and Trumps mocking him on the campaign trail.
But the fact remains that at 81 and 78, both candidates are well into their retirement years and showing signs of mental slippage leading to calls for more transparency about their health.
One person who has witnessed each candidate's ability to serve in a time of crisis and whose worked under both administrations also happens to be America's most recognizable doctor. Anthony Fauci is an immunologist and the longtime director of the National Institutes of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
He's advised every American president since Ronald Reagan on these matters and famously presided over the country's COVID-19 crisis during both Trump and Biden's first term.
He's just written a new memoir called "On Call: A Doctor's Journey in Public Service". And there was a lot to ask about presidential fitness and possible future pandemics when I caught up with him this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Dr. Fauci, welcome back to our program.
DR. FAUCI: Thank you very much. It's good to be with you.
AMANPOUR: So I do have to start by asking you, because you have worked with every president, going back to Reagan, I think.
Reagan was quite elderly, but President Biden is 81, President Trump is 78 or so. What do you make of the hullabaloo around Biden, his age, the debate performance right now? Did you have any concerns when you were working for him?
DR. FAUCI: Not at all, Christiane. I worked with him for two years that ended in December of 2022 when I had an extensive meeting with him, I believe in January or February of 2023.
And at that point, which was the last time I spoke to him, he was fine. I mean, obviously -- I mean, he's someone who physically is not as vigorous as he used to be when he was younger, but from a mental standpoint, the last time I saw him, which I mentioned is in the early part of 2023, he seemed fine to me.
So, I can't really comment about any personal interaction since that time.
AMANPOUR: You must have been surprised as a doctor to see the debate performance?
DR. FAUCI: Yes. I mean, that was very unfortunate. I mean, I think everyone who watched that was very concerned about what was going on there. Was that just he was not feeling very well. He was fatigued from travel.
[11:04:54]
DR. FAUCI: Did he have a cold? Did he take a medication that made him, you know, knocked out a bit like you do when you take a call? I don't know the answer to any of those questions. And I'm not in a position to find the answer to those questions.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DR. FAUCI: I think others will, his staff and others who are with him right now.
AMANPOUR: How do you think -- how should we think about age and leadership and when is the right time to call it a day, when you're in positions of maximum power and responsibility?
DR. FAUCI: You know, Christiane, it really is an individual thing. As you mentioned, I'm 83. Right now, I feel certainly physically not like I used to be able to run marathons, which I did years ago.
I mean, I exercise very regularly and vigorously every single day, but from a mental standpoint, I feel as sharp as I was, at least, the last time that I was in a situation running a big institute. So I feel fine.
As far as I'm concerned, it's an individual thing, and you can't generalize, because people age very differently. There are some 65- year-old people I know who really look like they just can't function in any manner or form that's important.
And as you mentioned, I'm 83, and I feel fine. I feel I can do what I need to do in the position that I'm in.
AMANPOUR: And so everybody also wants to know, not just about this age issue, but also about your time in the spotlight during COVID. I mean, you dealt with President Trump.
And he really has said some pretty extraordinary things throughout his presidency and he continues to say really extraordinary things that some people can't even decipher. And of course, everybody remembers the bleach situation. So, I'm just going to play this and I want to talk to you about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets on the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs.
So, it'd be interesting to check that. So, that you're going to have to use medical doctors with. But it sounds interesting to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What do you think was going through his mind and what did you talk to him about afterwards regarding that comment?
DR. FAUCI: Yes.
So, I write about this in the memoir. President Trump so much wanted the COVID outbreak, the pandemic to disappear in March and April because he wanted it to act like flu.
It was very, very disturbing to him because, A, the economy was being impacted and he was focusing on the election cycle.
So, what he did is that he would hope that it would go away in March, the beginning of April. When it didn't, he said things that were not true. He said it would go away like magic.
And that's when I had to be in the painful position to publicly contradict him and say, no, it's not going to go away.
When it became clear to him that it wasn't going to go away, he started grabbing for magic elixirs to essentially cure it. Hence, we had hydroxychloroquine, even though there was no evidence hydroxychloroquine worked, and in fact, it might hurt people.
And then, when he heard from the purpose (ph) from Homeland Security that this bleach issue could get rid of the virus from other surfaces, he went way out of his line and said, well, maybe we could use it in people.
He was desperately looking for a solution to get rid of COVID, but the solution wasn't there. And he said things that were completely not true in order to get the public to start thinking that maybe things are not that bad.
AMANPOUR: Did you ever have any concerns about his cognitive abilities? And particularly now, honestly, he is saying things in public that you can barely decipher.
DR. FAUCI: Yes. Again Christiane, I had my last interaction with him in the last month -- last couple of months of his presidency. I didn't detect any cognitive issues. I just was very perplexed by the lack of facts and honesty in things that he said. So it was less cognitive ability than it was honesty ability.
AMANPOUR: But he used to -- you write, used to yell at you about how you're also costing him or the country trillions of dollars. But then, you write that he would always -- you know, afterwards say, but you and I, we're good, right?
What was that dynamic? What was that relationship?
DR. FAUCI: You know he was from Queens, I'm from Brooklyn. We had that kind of New York City rapport with each other and we got along very well.
[11:09:48]
DR. FAUCI: So, as the months went by -- early on, there was no problem between us, but as the months went by and I had to contradict things he was saying, then he would call me up and yell at me and say, what are you doing? You got to be more positive.
But I think deep down, he really didn't want to conflict with me. And that's the reason why he would always say, even when he would be yelling at me on the phone at night, he would end it up by saying, we're still ok Tony, right? We're good.
So even though he said, we're good, things are ok, his staff started to undermine me and try to reduce and actually diminish my credibility in the White House.
AMANPOUR: I just want to end by asking you, what do you fear in terms of the future of pandemic? You know the CDC is warning about a global surge of dengue fever. Bird flu is currently spreading through dairy cows in the U.S. And apparently, four dairy workers have tested positive.
What is your -- you know, what's setting out the red lights for you?
DR. FAUCI: And unfortunately, my worst nightmare came true with COVID. What I think about my next worst nightmare is a repeat of what we've just seen, whether that's a pandemic influenza or another coronavirus that's respiratory-borne, that efficiently spreads from person to person, and that could make you very sick and kill you.
That's the thing that could be a devastating pandemic. There are very few other infections that don't have those characteristics of easy transmissibility and a degree of morbidity and mortality.
AMANPOUR: It's always great to talk to you, Dr. Fauci. Thank you so much indeed. "On Call" is your new book. Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up on the show, two political insiders on how the Democrats need to change the conversation about Biden and concerns about Donald Trump's weird and rambling public appearances.
Also ahead, exclusive CNN reporting reveals that Israeli forces branded abusive by the U.S. are now shaping the campaign in Gaza.
And then as Wimbledon reaches a crescendo, I look back into my archive and my conversation with the GOAT, Serena Williams.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: We had to play harder and we have to be better but it made us better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:12:09]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program
President Biden is under increasing pressure to step aside this weekend, and the Democrats are stuck in a catch-22. Stay loyal to the president and hope for the best or go public and push him out.
All of this just a month from the Democratic Convention. And by the way what is the impact of the little to no coverage of Trump's often incoherent ramblings, his cognitive frailty, and the threats that he poses to the republic.
Joining me this week, Alastair Campbell, famously chief spokesman and political strategist under British Prime Minister Tony Blair. He's also an author and now a successful podcast host.
And David Frum who is a political commentator and a former speech writer for President George W. Bush, as well as senior editor at "The Atlantic".
Gentlemen, welcome to you both.
CAMPBELL: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Look, I want to start by asking you what it looks like Alastair, since you're here in front of me, from this side of the Atlantic.
You know, the new prime minister, Labour Prime Minister Keir Starmer, just went to the White House, ended the NATO summit, had a nice conversation with Biden, seemed to all go well. They talked about the trans-Atlantic alliance.
What's going through your mind when you -- when you see this going on?
CAMPBELL: Well, first of all, obviously from a personal perspective -- very, very happy that there's a Labour prime minister back in power. And I think we've got a return to serious grown-up politics after the chaos of the last few years.
But I think with Joe Biden, I speak with somebody -- as somebody who's incredibly fond of him and has huge respect - actually he's got a very, very good record.
I think the truth is, every time is on TV at the moment, you kind of have your heart in your mouth. You feel like you're on tenterhooks as to what he's going to say, how he's going to say it.
And I think when the world is in such a mess, when there are so many big challenges that are, that are being faced by the world and people still look to the United States for leadership, you know, the fact that were talking about this day after day after day and as you -- and I think your point there by the way --
AMANPOUR: And that is my point. Because --
CAMPBELL: About Trump.
AMANPOUR: That's right. And now I'm going to play for both of you to comment on, you know, one of the latest Trump clips where he's talking at a rally or at a public appearance and it's kind of hard to discern.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: By the way, a lot of shark attacks lately. Did you notice that? A lot of sharks.
But you know what I do if there was a shark or you get electrocuted, I'll take electrocution every single time. I'm not getting near the shark. So we could end that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I'm sorry, David. I'm actually laughing. Do you get it what was he saying? And should not we be equally concerned about this kind of incoherence.
FRUM: If Donald Trump's only problem were being verbally incoherent or having strange fears, phobias about sharks, I would say we had done a good days work and we could knock off the program. That's not the problem.
The problem is that Donald Trump tried in 2021 to organize a coup against an election first by fraud, then by violence and he's unrepentant and he makes it very clear that he wants to do it again.
[11:19:48]
FRUM: Worse than that, last time Donald Trump was in government he had a somewhat skeptical and somewhat distant Republican Party that often blocked and defeated him, for example, when he tried to put weirdos on the Federal Reserve. Now he's got a Supreme Court packed with allies that has said he has more or less immunity from any criminal activity.
So we are in radical phase of democratic deterioration in the United States. If Donald Trump were just a dribbling fool I'd be a lot less worried.
AMANPOUR: But here's the thing. Those who like you who are concerned about that and about the real substance of the issue at hand all the sort of herd that is baying for Biden to go are saying it is about democracy. And we don't think Biden is up to be able to challenge Trump.
FRUM: Its true. Biden is not good or effective spokesman for his views. I think a lot of Americans are under the perception that the countries in a grip of inflation and chaos. We actually are now having, we've had disinflation, we're on our way to deflation. And meanwhile, crime is tending trendy down just about everywhere in the country and just about all forms of crime.
The American job market has not been this tight since at least the late 1960s, possibly not since the Second World War.
The reason we have an immigration problem and we do is because the United States is flashing a giant we're hiring sign to the whole rest of the planet and the rest of the planet understand they're hiring in the United States. Americans seem to have lost sight of that.
So President Biden is not able to make that case for himself. That's a problem. But the case is there to be made.
AMANPOUR: So Alastair, you were the major communicator and strategist about policy. And it is true as David says, that the indicators favor Biden. He's been an incredibly successful president.
So if he stays in, what does he have to do that he's not doing now?
CAMPBELL: Well, he has to get out from under this kind of cloud that is surrounding him at the moment. And you've had elderly parents. I've had elderly parents. The truth is that once you get to a state that he seems to be in, you don't get better and so I think I don't see how he gets out from under that.
And the point that I think is being lost in this is that -- and I completely agree with everything that David says, by the way. Trump is a complete abomination. This matters to the entire world and if he comes back, I think democracy -- America's under threat -- democracy in America is under threat. Weve got problems right around the world.
Biden is saying to himself, well, I've done it before, I can do it again. A lot of the Democrat Party say, well, no, you can't do it again because you're not in great shape.
So find the person who is best placed to beat Trump and get them in there. Imagine the sort of heft that would give to a Democrat strategist. Then you can tell the story better than it's being told now.
AMANPOUR: that and therein lies the issue. What is -- or who is the best candidate. We are going to pick this up after a break.
David and Alastair will be back later in the hour. So stick around for that and some important below-the-fold items of the week.
But coming up after this break, exclusive CNN reporting reveals that Israeli forces deemed abusive by the United States are now shaping the IDF campaign in Gaza.
[11:22:58]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
A CNN investigation has revealed that former commanders of a controversial Israeli military unit accused of heinous human rights violations against Palestinians are now serving in senior positions in the IDF. What's more, these commanders from the Netzah Yehuda battalion are now training Israeli ground troops and leading operations inside Gaza.
CNN's Katie Polglase obtained rare whistleblower testimony from a former soldier who describes a shocking culture of violence that went all the way to the top.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATIE POLGLASE, CNN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: This is the Netzah Yehuda battalion, an Israeli army unit showcasing their military might in a promotional personal training video.
But the unit has a decades-long history of abusing Palestinians in the West Bank. And the Americans know it.
A state department investigation found they had committed gross human rights violations but this finding never led to U.S. sanctions. Even media reports of possible sanctions outraged Israel.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: If anyone thinks they can impose sanctions on a unit of the IDF, I will fight with all my strength.
So despite their track record, the Netzah Yehuda battalion is still receiving American arms and is now operating in Gaza.
We tracked down one former soldier from the unit. In a rare interview, he remembers fellow soldiers bragging about their excessive violence towards Palestinians.
We've hidden his identity and voice as he fears reprisals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, FORMER NETZAH YEHUDA SOLDIER: There were some kids throwing rocks in a small village. That normally isn't a big deal. But the company commander decided, let's throw them a party.
So they took the emergency response team and 20 soldiers. They walk door to door, throwing flash-bangs and gas grenades into people's homes as a punishment for the kids throwing rocks.
POLGLASE: Collective punishment?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Collective punishment. The commander said it was fantastic to see the look on their faces. POLGLASE: When we look at those abuses that have happened in Netzah
Yehuda over the years, there's a chain of command here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
[11:29:52]
POLGLASE: What responsibility does the battalion commander, the person at the very top, what responsibility does that commander have for what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he has all the responsibility. If these commanders don't put their foot down and punish them for their behavior, then they are in fact condoning their behavior.
POLGLASE: he told us his years in the battalion changed his outlook completely. He now feels compelled to speak out about the battalion's mistreatment of Palestinians.
The officers he's talking about follow a chain of command. What happens under their watch is their responsibility. But despite this, we found some of these same commanders who were in charge when allegations of human rights abuses emerged, have been promoted again and again. And to senior roles in the IDF.
Using facial recognition technology, CNN found this commander, Lieutenant Colonel Nitai Okashi, now in Gaza in a senior role running ground operations.
Back in 2019, he ran the Netzah Yehuda battalion and was in charged when these soldiers, seen here laughing as they beat and humiliates a Palestinian man and his son, both arrested for assisting the killer of two fellow Netzah Yehuda soldiers. Their journey to the police station left the father with three broken ribs. Five related jailed for their actions.
Yet, their commander Okashi told investigators while he condemned the violence, he said deploying the soldiers was necessary to make the killer pay and to create a sense of success among the fighters.
He remained as commander and has been promoted since. But Okashi is not the only Netzah Yehuda commander with a dark past.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We as warriors, as commanders of Netzah Yehuda Battalion our mission is to succeed and face challenges.
POLGLASE: This is Lieutenant Colonel Mati Shevach rousing troops before a deployment. But just over a year later, soldiers under his command left for dead this elderly Palestinian-American man Omar Assad (ph), here lying on the ground bound and blindfolded as a soldier watches on.
His death, the IDF admitted a moral failure. But no soldier faced charges for his death and their commander faced only a reprimand, yet still, he was later promoted. Now training Israeli ground troops, preparing to enter Gaza, even
featuring in high-profile interviews with American media, boasting of his soldiers enthusiasm for war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The major concern for most of the soldiers is we're going to have to stop.
POLGLASE: We asked the man previously in charge of investigating the Netzah Yehuda's abuses for the U.S. government what he made of these promotions.
CHARLES BLAHA, FORMER U.S. DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: That is very bad news. That shows first of all, that Israel, that the government of Israel has no intention of holding the Netzah Yehuda battalion accountable.
He says the U.S. is not following their own laws by sending them weapons.
BLAHA: Of course, we treat Israel differently and that really undermines our human rights advocacy and the rest of the world. The law that Congress passed and our taxpayer-funded assistance is going to Israeli units that have committed gross violations of human rights.
POLGLASE: This assistance, despite the growing evidence of abuse CNN exclusively obtained the names of three more Israeli units found by U.S. officials to have committed gross human rights violations prior to October 7th.
All are still operating, including the Yamam (ph) seen here in Gaza in an operation that rescued four Israeli hostages, but left nearly 300 Palestinians dead, according to local health authorities. The Israeli military dispute that the toll was so high.
As the death and destruction mounts, it is U.S. weaponry supporting these units, begging the question for how much longer will Israel's greatest ally choose to turn a blind eye.
Katie Polglase, CNN -- London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: CNN has reached out to the IDF to Israel's border police and to the U.S. State Department for comment.
The IDF told us the Netzah Yehuda battalion operates in a professional and ethical manner and in accordance with the IDF's orders and protocols. They said they examine every exceptional incident and take disciplinary measures when appropriate.
The State Department told us they do not comment on individual cases, but say all U.S. assistance to Israel is consistent with domestic and international law.
Still to come on the program, as Wimbledon comes to a close this week again, with more of the sports greats retiring, from my archives, my interview with tennis titan Serena Williams, just before she put down her own racket in 2022.
[11:34:50]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the show.
Here in the U.K. the Wimbledon tennis championships are in full swing with the finals taking center stage this weekend.
And fans are saying farewell to some of the sport's greatest legends. One of them is three-time Grand Slam champion Andy Murray who played his final Wimbledon this year.
[11:39:52]
AMANPOUR: Known for his unapologetic feminism and unwavering support of women, he leaves a powerful tennis legacy.
And tennis titan Serena Williams, thanked Murray for being such a staunch defender.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAMS: I also hold a special place in my heart for you because you always speak out so much for women and like everything that women deserve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The two of them famously played together in the 2019 Wimbledon mixed doubles. And from my archive this week, as we mark their storied careers, part of my interview with Serena just a few months before her own retirement in 2022.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Does it tick you off that people keep asking you this question? Is it too much pressure? Is it unreasonable? Do you think that you've had enough of people asking you this question about the record?
WILLIAMS: As our friend says, pressure is a privilege.
AMANPOUR: There you go. Billy Jean King.
WILLIAMS: You know, what's the alternative is having someone asked about no records? You know, and I think -- I think that's a privilege. I would rather you ask me that to be clear any day. You -- anyone is allowed to ask me that any day as opposed to the alternative of having like three years, 6 or 10 or 15, you know.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: So I enjoy that. AMANPOUR: Good.
Obviously, you guys stand out because you are the two great black female champions, Althea Gibson, of course, was the trailblazer, but nonetheless it is as you said, a white sport.
How did you perceive that? How did you get over that?
WILLIAMS: So we changed it from being two great black champions to being the best-ever, period. And that's what we did. We took our color and we just became the best. And that's -- records are not like it is proof and that's it is what it is.
We changed the sport, we changed the fashion, we changed how people think. We changed how people think in business before when we played tennis and we wanted to do something different. It was frowned upon.
And yet we had to play harder and we had to be better. But it made us better. And at the end of the day, everything -- every time we faced a challenge and every time we overcame that challenge, it created Venus and Serena.
AMANPOUR: Sometimes you have shown anger on the court and you've -- you know, you've had to -- well, you have had booing on the court as well. And I just wonder what you think about that. Not just as a black athlete, but also as a woman. And whether you think some of the others have, you know, had the fines and punishments that you have had.
For instance we've just seen Zverev I mean, literally with his racket, banging the umpire's chair to the point that the umpire had to move his legs out of the way?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: How do you -- talk to me about that? What happens? What cracks?
WILLIAMS: What cracks an individual?
AMANPOUR: Yes, that. And then -- and then the difference between maybe how you (INAUDIBLE) --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I think there was a difference. Like Venus -- it's so frustrating playing her because she's like so even-keeled. She's a just like, why aren't you angry at me? I'm so opposite. I'm just like -- you know. It's just my personality.
I think everyone is different and it's not necessarily about cracking. I think it's just more about passion and just -- it just boils down your personality, like I am who I am on the court and off the court.
I'm very passionate about what I do. I'm passionate about everything and so that answers that side.
But there is absolutely a double standard. I would probably be in jail if I did that, like literally no joke.
So yes. I mean, I was I was actually on probation once. Whatever -- probation.
AMANPOUR: What do you feel it was (ph).
WILLIAMS: You know what I will -- we're not going to go there.
AMANPOUR: Ok. We won't go there.
WILLIAMS: We're not going to go there.
AMANPOUR: But there is a double standard.
WILLIAMS: It absolutely is. that's true.
AMANPOUR: And you've seen that through your career.
WILLIAMS: You know, you see that when you see other things happening on the tour, like wait, if I done that -- but its ok at the end of the day, I am who I am and I love who I am and I love like -- I love the impact that I've had on people. I love the impact that I continue to have on people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And this is the first year since 1996, that both Serena and her sister Venus are absent at Wimbledon. But they've certainly left their mark obviously for ages to come.
And when we come back, how to lose an election. What we can all learn about the Democratic transfer of power from Britain's defeated Prime Minister Rishi Sunak.
[11:44:46]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Picking up where we left off with my panel this weekend: British political strategist Alastair Campbell and U.S. presidential adviser David Frum.
David, I want to get to you just quickly before we move on to some below the folds.
[11:49:47]
AMANPOUR: I spoke to Heather Cox Richardson who talked about what happens when you dump a candidate. And of course she was referring to Johnson. Let me just play what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEATHER COX RICHARDSON, HISTORIAN: I don't care if we elect Biden or Harris or anybody else. I care that we recognize that running currently against that ticket is somebody who was trying to destroy our country. If you change a presidential nominee at this point in the game, the candidate loses.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRUM: The reason Joe Biden is president and Hillary Clinton never got there was because Joe Biden cut in half Donald Trump's advantage among men.
Biden still lost men -- lost man to Trump but he did it by half and half as badly as Hillary Clinton did. And that was just enough to make the difference in the election of 2020 as compared to 2016.
Now, my question is can Democrats honestly think in those terms, which really is the best candidate to defeat Biden (SIC). They -- they tell themselves a lot of hopeful semi-truths designed to encourage action they see as virtuous, but they are not as serious about gaining and exercising power as Republicans are.
AMANPOUR: So on that node. Extreme, polarized and divisions we were somewhat taken and it has been, you know, reported that Rishi Sunak, the you know, losing prime minister in this last British election, when he went to parliament for the first time after sitting on the opposition side, he was actually quite generous and magnanimous.
I'm going to play this little clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUNAK: In our politics we can argue vigorously as a prime minister, and I did over the past six weeks but still respect each other. And whatever disputes we may have in this parliament I know that everyone in this House will not lose sight of the fact that we are all motivated by our desire to serve our constituents, our country, and advance the principles that we honorably believe in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What does it say to you the generosity and the civility with which he addressed the incoming prime minister.
CAMPBELL: Well, it certainly shows the transition in the U.K. is faster and better handled than the transition that we had that lead to the riot at the Capitol.
And I think actually Rishi Sunak was probably thinking to himself, I want to leave well. He actually spoke well there. He spoke well outside Downing Street and he spoke well at the count in his constituency.
But he came on the back of a campaign where they were knocking lumps off each other.
AMANPOUR: David, we wanted to do some below the fold just out of interest. Theres so much that gets oxygen. What is, you know, what caught your attention this week?
FRUM: Well, I pay a lot of attention to Mexican politics.
I think the delta on its importance to the United States and the attention it gets from the United States, the gap in Mexico is the greatest of any.
I just want to add one thing to viewers' attention. There was a recent -- at the beginning of July, there's a major election in Mexico, the authoritarian Nationalist Morena Party won. They won a big enough majority in Congress to change the constitution.
The new Congress takes power on 1st of September. The old president doesn't leave office until the 30 September. Theres going to be a month where Lopez Obrador, a man who's a kind of Mexican Trump, is going to have the power to amend the Mexican constitution almost at will. It's going to be a very, very dangerous month for Mexico and for all of Mexico's partners.
AMANPOUR: We'll keep an eye on that then.
And Alastair, you?
CAMPBELL: Well, I want to talk about Taylor Swift.
AMANPOUR: Taylor Swift.
CAMPBELL: I know that Taylor Swift is not that -- it's not it doesn't get enough coverage. She gets a lot of coverage.
But I was in Singapore not long ago when she was there. I've also been in Europe when she's been here. And the sort of Swift-onomics thing, the impact that she has wherever she goes now is absolutely phenomenal.
So in Singapore, for example, they were paying very large sums of money, the government paying large sums of money to Taylor Swift, not to go to other countries in the region because they wanted her just to be in Singapore.
She went to do three days. She ended up doing six days. And the impact on the Singaporean economy -- we are talking hundreds of millions.
AMANPOUR: As if it needed more of an impact. It's a thriving economy.
CAMPBELL: Yes, but you know, they're thinking about and likewise here so it's not -- maybe not quite as serious as --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: You're being hit Alastair.
CAMPBELL: I'm not being hit. But this thing is really interesting. And I agree, AMLO is a real big problem in Mexico, but I think Swift- onomics, you need to get there, Christiane. AMANPOUR: We will get there. We've been there.
Alastair Campbell, thank you so much. David frum, thank you so much.
When we come back life imitates art in a musical collaboration, not Taylor Swift, but this one nearly 30 years in the making.
[11:54:28]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And finally, hip-hop meets highbrow this week in a collaboration nearly three decades in the making.
Now that's the 90s hip-hop band Cyprus Hill performing with the London Symphony Orchestra at the Royal Albert Hall. It all started as a bit of a joke in a "Simpsons" episode from 1996 when the band accidentally booked the orchestra to play with them.
Here's a clip.
[11:59:50]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is playing with the London Symphony Orchestra?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man, we order an orchestra.
(CROSSTALK)
(INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me about this. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes. We think we did. Do you know "Insane in the Brain".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Almost as weird as an episode they broadcast last year featuring yours truly.
It is how you know that you've truly arrived.
And that's all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/podcast and on all other major platforms.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week.
