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The Amanpour Hour
Interview with former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi; Interview with Chatham House's Leslie Vinjamuri; Interview with Democratic Strategist Simon Rosenberg; Interview with "The Apprentice" Director Ali Abbasi; Inside Singapore's Changi Prison; Interview with Prison Doctor Who Once Saved Yahya Sinwar's Life Yuval Bitton. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired October 19, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:00:34]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR. Here's where we're headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
YUVAL BITTON, FORMER ISRAELI HEAD OF INTELLIGENCE (through translator): In 2004, I saved Sinwar's life in prison.
AMANPOUR: From my archive, Yuval Bitton tells his unbelievable story. What this Israeli doctor learned about Yahya Sinwar's plans.
Plus --
NANCY PELOSI, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I don't know that a country can withstand -- its character can withstand another term of Donald Trump.
AMANPOUR: Former house speaker Nancy Pelosi, on electing Kamala Harris, and whether she's talked to President Biden since suggesting he step down.
Then an election like no other, we bring you the view from abroad and at home with Leslie Vinjamuri of Chatham House here in London. And Democratic strategist Simon Rosenberg.
And --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you always win?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's rules.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first rule is attack, attack, attack.
AMANPOUR: The film that's triggering Trump.
I'm joined by Ali Abbasi, director of "The Apprentice".
Also ahead what can send you to death row in Singapore, an exclusive look inside the country's prisons.
And finally as a pop goddess who's inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame when the one and only Cher told me about reinventing herself and her incredible career.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
President Biden has been in Europe for his last ever meeting with the European quad of leaders as the U.S. inches closer to deciding his replacement and the next leader of the free world.
And while there's no question that it is on a knife edge, Americans aren't the only ones on the edge of their seats. Foreign governments and citizens worldwide are anxiously awaiting the outcome of this election too. So every vote remains crucial as that formidable vote getter and former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi knows all too well.
She spent this week here in the U.K., whipping up votes with Democrats abroad, warning U.S. citizens that the stakes in this election are higher than at any other time in recent history.
And she came into the studio earlier this week to lay that out. And also to talk about her new book, "The Art of Power".
I started by asking her though, to react to events in the Middle East where Israeli strikes hit U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon and the country's continued bombing of Gaza has forced the Biden administration to reiterate its strongest calls yet for Israel to let humanitarian aid in.
I spoke to her before reports of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar's death were confirmed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PELOSI: Well, the fact is that we just a few days ago, observed a one- year anniversary of a terrible assault on Israel by Hamas, a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
Sadly, since then, we've seen many casualties of noncombatants, children and families in Gaza, and now some -- elsewhere in the region, and it's just intolerable.
We cannot -- we -- war has to be outlawed as a resolution of any conflict or disagreement. But right now, we have to live with the circumstances that we have.
We've all been talking about a two-state solution for a long time, for Israel and for the Palestinians. The current leader in Israel does not agree to that.
I don't know if Netanyahu wants peace. I don't know if he's capable of peace. I don't know if he's afraid of peace, but he has gone off the course that we all thought we were in as we support Israel.
AMANPOUR: He actually came to the Congress not so long ago. What did you make of that invitation and the way he spoke against your party and your administration?
PELOSI: This speech that he made recently, I thought, was the worst presentation ever made by a leader of a country invited to speak before the Congress.
[11:04:48]
PELOSI: I was against the invitation. But I'm not the speaker anymore. And of course, I did not attend, but I did observe what he had to say. It was most unfortunate.
But any -- we all support Israel. It is our -- in our national interest, our security interest to do so, our values' interest to do so over time.
But right now, the leverage that we have given Netanyahu has been used in a way that is most destructive.
AMANPOUR: Let me talk to you about your book now called "The Art of Power." You have said in your book, I know Donald Trump's mental imbalance. I had seen it up close. His denial and then delays when the COVID pandemic struck. His penchant for repeatedly stomping out of meetings. His foul mouth. His pounding on tables, his temper tantrums, his disrespect for our nation's patriots, and his total separation from reality and actual events.
You know, how did you deal with that? And do you think this country, your country, can survive another term?
PELOSI: Well, I've said it over and over again, one term our country is strong enough to withstand. But when you see what -- he's even gotten worse since I wrote that. He's saying in this campaign that he will criminalize any comments that are criticizing his actions.
He'll criminalize freedom of speech. He -- of course, will have a ban on abortion, a national ban on abortion.
AMANPOUR: Even though he says he won't?
PELOSI: Well, he -- well, if his lips are moving, he's not telling the truth. If -- when you go to so many of the things that he is doing -- what is a democracy? That's what's on the ballot.
A democracy is free and fair elections, a peaceful transfer of power, independent judiciary. It's about having respect for our Constitution, which we take an oath to protect and defend. He says maybe we should terminate the constitution.
So, I don't know that a country can withstand -- its character can withstand another term of Donald Trump. But we're not -- we don't agonize, we're organizers. We have made a decision to win this election and it depends on the turnout.
AMANPOUR: They say Nancy Pelosi is who and what convinced President Biden that he had to reconsider, and as you famously put it, make the decision about whether he's going to run or not going to run. Do you talk to him since July?
PELOSI: I haven't spoken to him since July, but of course, we've been out of session for a while, and I've been on the campaign trail constantly.
I have great respect for the president. I think his legacy is a very substantial one for our country. It is our legacy too. I did not want that to be lost.
Now, my concerns were about the campaign, not about the candidate. He's fabulous. But the campaign, I thought, was not going in the right direction. And I expressed my concern about that.
It was up to the president to make the decision whether he would continue to run. He made that decision.
AMANPOUR: Do you think you could have won with him as the candidate?
PELOSI: It's hard to believe -- you know, it's hard to ask me that question because I don't understand how anybody could vote for Donald Trump, but they do. And so, we have to be prepared.
I do think there was a generational thing though that had to be recognized, the two of them, so old to be running for president.
AMANPOUR: You talk about Trump, I want to play what Trump actually said about democracy and about, you know, how it might work out. He said it to Fox News on Sunday, and he was talking about an enemy within.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within, not even the people that have come in and destroying our country. And by the way, it's totally destroying our country.
The towns, the villages, they're being inundated. But I don't think they're the problem in terms of Election Day. I think the bigger problem are the people from within.
We have some very bad people. We have some sick people, radical left lunatics. It should be very easily handled by -- if necessary, by National Guard, or if really necessary by the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: He probably includes you in the radical left and probably includes you as an enemy from within. National Guard, military.
PELOSI: What you have to understand about the former president is he's always projecting. When he talks about the enemy within, he's talking about himself and his supporters.
And when he's talking about actions that may be taken, he's talking about what they have done, what they are doing right now and what they may continue to do.
So, understand when he says, Crooked Hillary, he knows he's crooked. When he says, Crazy Nancy, he knows he's crazy. When he says, the enemy within, he's talking about himself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you, because it's very, very, minute by minute and grippingly written, your memories and experience of January 6th, when they
were actually looking for Nancy, they were coming after you. I want to ask you to read a paragraph that you write about. And the question really is,
how scared were you at that time? I mean, your daughter was there, she was doing this film about you.
PELOSI: I wasn't afraid for myself, but I was afraid for the members and the staff and the press who were there to cover that. I was afraid for the
people who keep the Capitol in order because they were being insulted. These people who came were defecating on the floor of the Capitol. They
were grotesque. So, they were the enemy within and continue to be.
So, for me, I have a lot of security. I was speaker, I'm in succession. So, I have a lot of security. I wasn't concerned about. I was concerned for the
vice president. I knew what they were saying about him. I knew they were coming to put a bullet in my head. That's what they said. But I've been a
target for a long time. He was a target that day, and I worried about him. And I spoke to him about that at that time.
AMANPOUR: The vice president?
PELOSI: Vice President Mike Pence.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
PELOSI: But he did the right thing for our country. He is not supporting this person for president, the former president. And I'm happy to --
AMANPOUR: Yes, read that paragraph, because it's quite dramatic.
PELOSI: Because I was concerned about my colleagues, they did not have the security I had, even though they have the security. The lawmakers inside
the chamber had truly harrowing experiences. Jamie Raskin, still on the House floor, had listened as fellow members called their spouses to tell
them goodbye, as had the vice president's security detail.
Jamie and other representatives had donned gas mask because the tear gas canisters were being fired in the hallways. The House chaplain said a
prayer as members pulled out the plastic ventilator hoods outfitted with air filters that were discreetly hidden in pouches under their seats.
[13:30:00]
Until that moment, men there had no idea that the protective hoods were there. They had been added to the House chamber as part of the enhanced
security precautions put in place after 9/11. This is in the House of Representatives.
AMANPOUR: And it's a first that we hear about those masks, first and foremost, and that members were calling their families to say goodbye.
PELOSI: To say goodbye. And what was really sad about it was that after all this happened -- and Republican and Democratic members were in that
chamber as well, after all this happened, and people said to me, you've got to do whatever you're going to do in an undisclosed location about
approving the electoral college vote. I said, no, we're going to the floor. We're showing the American people and the world that America, that we have
prevailed to this and that these people have not won.
But when that happened, overwhelmingly, led by the Republican leadership, they voted against -- in the House, they voted against the certification of
the Electoral College.
AMANPOUR: Even after this?
PELOSI: Even after they saw all of that.
AMANPOUR: What do you say to people? Because Trump, even in 2020, had 78 million votes. OK. That's a lot of votes.
PELOSI: It is.
AMANPOUR: And today, people say his supporters in his campaign would say, oh, people like yourself or whoever says the kind of things you're saying about him and warning about, you know, the authoritarianism, the threat to democracy, they say, quote/unquote, "Trump derangement syndrome." That
everybody's just hysterical, things were great under his presidency, and there's no need to fear.
PELOSI: Well, it's a really sad thing, and as I've said, don't ask me why anybody would vote for him, but some people are just very anti, anti-woman,
anti-newcomer, anti-LGBTQ, anti-diversity, and the rest, and will never get their vote.
And then, very rich people, billionaires, they don't want to pay taxes, they don't want any regulation of clean air, clean water, any of that, they
just wanted not to pay taxes. And some of them don't pay any, and some pay -- do not pay their fair share. So, they fund this.
In between, they're people whose views are very -- of great concern to our country. They're concerned about innovation. What does this mean for my
family and for me and for my family in terms of jobs? They're concerned about globalization. There was a factory down the road and now, it's gone.
And those are legitimate concerns, which Joe Biden and Kamala Harris addressed as we did in the Congress, in our bills, in the Rescue Package,
in the Infrastructure Bill, in the CHIPS and Science Bill, in the PACT Act, in the IRA.
AMANPOUR: Child poverty.
PELOSI: All of it. Well, they don't care so much about child poverty, even though they -- many of them benefit from it, benefit from our investments
in child poverty. But I would say that most, no. One of the things that held up the budget this year was they -- Republicans were reluctant to fund
food, nutrition for women, infant, and children who needed food. So, I wouldn't say that they are too concerned about child poverty.
AMANPOUR: And finally, I want to ask you about your own family. A couple of years ago you, again, were a target, but they got your husband at your
house in San Francisco and they violently -- this guy violently attacked your husband with a hammer. And it has been a long process of
rehabilitation. How is he doing? How were you able to talk to him about it? How has your daughters processed it?
PELOSI: Well, thank you for asking, and I know he'll be comforted to know that you cared. He -- it was two years, it was the end of October is when
this happened, right before the election two years ago. And where is Nancy, where is Nancy, was the same thing that was said in the Capitol, by the
same crowd, this guy, that he violated the sanctity of our home, that he violently attacked my husband looking for me. It was a horrible experience
for anyone to have.
But what's really doubly sad was when -- maybe even more so, was when this happened, when we didn't even know if he would live, the former president,
his son, the governor of Virginia, Elon Musk, people like that thought it was really funny. They were making jokes on their -- in the social media.
Oh, it was just a very funny thing.
From a standpoint of physical violence, that's one thing to repair from. Trauma is another thing. Whether it was our volunteers, our staff in the
White House -- excuse me, in the Capitol on January 6th, or my children and grandchildren and our family, the trauma of our father, our pop, being
attacked, and they thought it was really funny.
[13:35:00]
Physical violence and the trauma that goes with it is something we must remove from our politics, including, sadly, the assassination attempts on
the president, which we all condemned, as opposed to what they did when I had the attack on my family.
So, he's coming along. It'll take a while. But we're glad he's with us, because it was a centimeter away from not being with us because of this
person who was following up on my comments about the other side.
AMANPOUR: You have kept going in terms of -- kept running for re- election.
PELOSI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And several times you've said, and I remember you saying it to me once a long time ago, as long as he's there, I'm here. So, you were
talking about Trump. Do you still feel that? Are you going to keep going?
PELOSI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: I know you're running in this election.
PELOSI: Well, I know we had -- right now, we have to just win the election. We don't agonize, we organize, put one good day in front of
another. No wasted time, no underutilized resources, and no regrets the day after the election that we could have done something, better or more.
Because we do have a plan.
But this is a different election. It's not John McCain. It's not Mitt Romney. It's not George Bush, George Herbert Walker Bush. It's not Bob
Dole. They were all patriotic Americans, and whatever the outcome is the outcome. This is somebody very seriously dangerous to our democracy, to our
personal freedoms, which are part of our democracy, and to our reputation in the world.
So, there was no way -- you know, making a decision to stay was to make a decision to make sure he never steps foot in the White House again.
In any event, time will tell, and whatever it is, we will accept the results of the election. That's something they won't even say. They still
haven't accepted the results of the last election.
AMANPOUR: Speaker Pelosi, thank you very much.
PELOSI: My pleasure to be here. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And Nancy Pelosi's book, "The Art of Power" is out now.
[11:09:48]
AMANPOUR: Coming up later on the show, the film that's driving Trump to social media at 1:00 in the morning. I speak to the director of "The Apprentice".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI ABBASI, DIRECTOR, "THE APPRENTICE": If we're agitating all sides, then we're doing something right. AMANPOUR: But up next, the view from Americans here and there. Our
panel on what the polls are really saying at this late stage in the race.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:14:53]
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. In this final stretch, what each candidate does or doesn't do now is being closely watched. Both are going out of their comfort zones to reach out for voters.
Former President Trump getting a grilling on Univision by Latino voters, where he tried to shift the narrative around the storming of the capitol on January 6.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: but that was a day of love from the standpoint of the millions. It's like hundreds of thousands. It could have been the largest group I've ever spoken before. They asked me to speak, I went and I spoke and I use the term "peacefully and patriotically".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A day of love? Well, Vice President Kamala Harris sat down for an interview with Fox News, where she forcefully pushed back against Trump's "enemy within" comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's talked about locking people up because they disagree with him. This is a democracy and in a democracy, the president of the United States in the United States of America should be willing to be able to handle criticism without saying he'd lock people up for doing it. And this is what is at stake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: High-stakes, indeed. So what might end up being the deciding factor in battleground states? It's a case of high anxiety for Republicans and Democrats as the presidential race remains in a dead heat.
With me to discuss the massive global stakes of this election are Leslie Vinjamuri of the London-based think tank, Chatham House and Democratic strategist Simon Rosenberg.
Leslie Vinjamuri, Simon Rosenberg -- welcome back to the program.
LESLIE VINJAMURI, CHATHAM HOUSE: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Can I start with you, Leslie, because President Biden has been overseas? There's a lot going on and obviously the world is looking at the next president and what it'll mean. What do you think of what the allies are thinking? For instance, will
there be another G7.
VINJAMURI: I think THAT people are very concerned if Donald Trump were to be elected, whether there will be a G7.
Some people are talking about how to move ahead, even if Donald Trump doesn't wish to participate and was elected. The key thing is America's partners and America's allies understand what could be coming. This is what makes us very, very different from 2016.
As we all know, they are preparing. We have been traveling across Asia, Europe, and Latin America. Chatham House has been fielding teams with former U.S. government officials, experts meeting with government officials and experts in country.
And we've been astonished at how well-prepared people are, how much they're thinking about it. And especially a very high level of pragmatism and everywhere but Europe.
And Europe people are very distressed. They're very concerned. There's sort of a level of excitement, and not in a good way --
(CROSSTALKING)
VINJAMURI: -- anxiety.
AMANPOUR: This is where I turn to Simon. What -- what sort of pragmatic steps are the other parts of the world taking?
VINJAMURI: Well, I mean, I think first of all, there is a recognition. Take Mexico, there's a recognition that actually they worked out how to work with Donald Trump. They renegotiated NAFTA, they got the new USMCA, the trade accord.
They understood that there were some better parts about the labor rights that were in that agreement. So they could see, you know, that they had experience and that they were still -- that they had experienced or steeled for it.
There's -- there's also a signaling thing going on here knowing that we're going to come back, we're going to talk about this. The Japanese leaders that we met with all said, we're prepared to work with anybody. This is incredibly important, we'll work with Trump, we'll work with Harris.
The other thing that really came out in spades though, was the deep disappointment across both sides of the aisle with what America has to offer when it comes to economic policy, market access.
They understand, I think that this could be much more difficult, disruptive with a Trump administration that we'll see a return to the tariff wars, that the instability, that the rhetoric, that the language, the style of diplomacy would be difficult.
But there's no real optimism that a Biden administration is going to start opening -- opening its markets --
AMANPOUR: Biden?
VINJAMURI: Sorry, Harris administration. And that's a very interesting slip by my part, right? Because there is a sort of, you know, implicit conversation will there be much difference? We didn't see -- I think there will be a difference --
AMANPOUR: Between Biden and Harris?
VINJAMURI: We didn't see Americas partners and allies thinking that there will be a significant difference between Biden and Harris. So they're assessing it as a continuity on the Democrats.
AMANPOUR: Ok. So let me ask you, Simon then because you are an insider's insider. Is it a good or a bad thing that the perception, at least overseas, is that there wouldn't be much difference.
I mean, this week Kamala Harris, vice president, said, I will not be a continuation of the Biden presidency. What does she mean?
SIMON ROSENBERG, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, it's almost sort of an obvious thing, right?
[11:19:43]
ROSENBERG: Of course, she's going to pursue her own course. She -- you know, she's already laid out a series of things that she's wanted to do domestically like the housing crisis in the United States that are things that just didn't get done in the Biden era.
She's got a new set of challenges that Biden -- and it's going to be a very different administration if she wins, and I think she will win.
That's already been laid out rhetorically. I mean, her rhetoric around the economy is very different from Biden's. And I think it's much more tied to optimism, upward mobility.
This line she has about how she wants people not to just get by but get ahead is very in sync with where the Democratic party has been over the last 30, 40 years. But I think it's going to be -- you know, this is -- she's going to have to make some big decisions when she wins about all these matters.
And I think that our foreign allies are going to need to be engaging aggressively to try to help weigh in about where they think our government should go.
AMANPOUR: Simon, I do need to ask you, you seem to be confident --
ROSENBERG: Yes.
AMANPOUR: == and certainly you have your "Hopium" blog in which you are just radiating hope and change and all the rest of it.
ROSENBERG: Optimism, optimism.
AMANPOUR: There you go. There you go.
But why are you so optimistic given that it's so incredibly knife-edge right now that we are inundated with, you know, from the Democratic perspective, horror stories of how the black vote is being (INAUDIBLE) away, moving towards Trump, the Latino vote to an extent. Why are you so hopeful and how do you analyze those particular demographics?
ROSENBERG: Yes. So three things, right.
One is in the polling today, we have a modest lead nationally after having been -- the vice president gotten into the race, we were down by 3 points, were now up by about three points. We have a modest advantage in the battleground states. We're closer to 270 than Donald Trump is.
And I think that the confidence that we have is that a. since the Dobbs decision in the spring of 2022, Democrats have continually overperformed polling and expectations. Republicans have continually underperformed polling and public expectations that there is this reticence as there was in Europe in France to vote for the far right when it came to the day of actually voting.
And you've seen this incredible unprecedented effort by Republicans and by former Republicans to push Republicans towards Harris. And I think it's going to matter on election day.
But the second reason I think we have quiet confidence that we'd much rather be us than them is that we just have much more money and a far more sophisticated ground game to close strong in these final few weeks.
I mean it's close now. But if one of the two parties is likely to push the election towards them, it's us because of our advantages in terms of we're going to have more ads on the air. We're going to be talking to voters more.
And our candidate is much more popular and is seen as much more favorable and likable, than their candidate. I feel in every bone in my body, 30 plus years in this business, I would much rather be us than them at this point.
AMANPOUR: Ok. That's a nice way to put it because I was going to say you're the guy also who told us that, oh, no, there's nothing there Bidens fine. He should be allowed to continue, et cetera, et cetera.
ROSENBERG: Yes. Listen, I mean, I think it was a sign of maturity of a political party that when we needed to make a change and do -- did so in a very graceful manner and effective manner that we are where we are now.
AMANPOUR: So Leslie, I want to ask you and I'm afraid it is a relevant issue. What does the world think of Donald Trump's mental acuity? I mean, they're proofing themselves in one way, but what do they think about his fitness, his mental fitness. VINJAMURI: I think people are really concerned that a second Trump
administration will be -- won't have the grownups in the room. We know the story. It won't have the sort of rational people around the outer circles that there is a plan.
People still think that now everybody knows about Project 2025. The great irony, right? The president has -- the former president has divorced himself from the plan. Everybody else thinks it is the plan.
And so they are worried. They're worried that not only the mental acuity, the fitness of the man, that the age of the man, but that the direction of travel in America's democracy, in America's leadership, would be very difficult for them to manage.
AMANPOUR: Up next, our letter from London and the film Trump doesn't want you to see.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm rich. I'm handsome. I have a great family.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. Oh my God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to be the number one in New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I speak with Ali Abbasi, director of "The Apprentice" when we come back.
[11:24:04]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
A new movie has just been released in the United States and here in the U.K. Its most vocal critic Donald Trump.
"The Apprentice" portrays Trump's rise as a young real estate developer and his complicated character and despite receiving an eight-minute standing ovation when it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival, it was a fight to get the film released in the United States.
In our "Letter from London" this week, I spoke with director Ali Abbasi about his motivation to portray Trump's origin story, his cutthroat, red-baiting mentor, and what it all says about the Republican nominee and former president today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Ali Abbasi, welcome to the program.
ABBASI: Thank you for having me. AMANPOUR: So, we are going to talk about your film "The Apprentice," which is a movie, but it's also become a political minefield. So, first and foremost, it is the story of Donald Trump's beginnings.
ABBASI: That's right.
AMANPOUR: Way before he had the presidency in his eye. It takes place between 1973 and 1986. Why did you want to do this movie?
[11:29:52]
ABBASI: Everyone has an opinion about him, right? Everyone thinks that they know him, they -- you know, is a very polarizing figure. And it's really exciting to sort of dive back and say, oh, he was not the person you think he was. And he'd gone through a sort of a major transformation.
And look at that, and look at that sort of colorful 70s and 80s New York with these large life characters. But also, as someone, you know, as an outsider to -- you know, United States and American society, that's my chance to look at the power structure of America, the legal structure and the sort of the social Darwinism that has created some of these, you know.
AMANPOUR: What would you describe him as at the time of this film? When that set in. He's not the character he is now, you say. What was he then?
ABBASI: I think he was a striver. He was someone who sort of as a young man wanted to become somebody, do something. And he wasn't like exactly obvious what to become and what to do. But he wanted to ascend.
He was an ascender. He was looking for a purpose, looking for a place.
And you know, obviously he comes from money, you know, his dad was, you know, immensely wealthy, but they were, you know, in Brooklyn and Queens and they didn't have this sort of Manhattan, you know, social life connections, which -- and that's where he wanted to be.
AMANPOUR: He wanted to prove to his father that he could be as good a real estate developer --
ABBASI: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: -- as his father. The reason it's called "The Apprentice" is because he is apprenticed to this very prominent lawyer by the name of Roy Cohn.
ABBASI: That's right.
AMANPOUR: A Manhattanite who had become very famous during the Nixon administration, before that, the McCarthy hearings, and he was really very, very extreme, very good lawyer, very, very right-wing, who professed always that his major client was America. But I want to play this clip because it is essentially what the writer, Gabriel Sherman, says is where Trump learnt what we now know as Trumpism.
ABBASI: That's right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you always win?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's rules. The first rule is attack, attack, attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's going to be the finest building in the city, maybe the country, and the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rule two, admit nothing. Deny everything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's never been anything like this at this magnitude, this quality.
Oh, cheese balls over here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are you doing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want one?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, it looks totally disgusting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheese balls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rule three, no matter what happens, you claim victory and never admit defeat. You have to be willing to do anything to anyone to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP) AMANPOUR: I mean it is actually extraordinary. Now that's the trailer. So, the three rules are all broken up with scenes and music.
ABBASI: That's right.
AMANPOUR: But the three rules are deny, deny, deny; attack, attack, attack, and never-ever admit defeat. And you can take that as a straight line from there to January 6th.
ABBASI: Yes. And you know, basically it's about, like, if, you know, the reality works for you, manipulate it. If it doesn't work for you, just manufacture the reality you need.
AMANPOUR: So, as you know, a lot of Republicans have trashed it. We're going to get to Trump trashing it in a moment.
ABBASI: And some liked it too.
AMANPOUR: And some may have liked it too.
But a lot of liberals just think you're not being clear-eyed enough about Trump. So, it's kind of a minefield.
ABBASI: Yes. I mean, we've been, sort of, in the middle of, oh you're too soft on him; oh, you're too harsh on him; oh, you're bashing him; oh, you're praising him. And in a way, I'm thinking, you know, if you have, you know, Roger Stone, you know, liking it, Mr. Trump hating it, Breitbart liking it, someone else -- MSNBC liking it, hating it, you know, all these different actors, if we're agitating all sides, then we're doing something right.
AMANPOUR: And Trump has just recently -- his latest attack on this is on the social media early Monday calling it a cheap, defamatory, and politically disgusting hatchet job meant to thwart his presidential candidacy. And his -- you know, his spokesman goes on to say this garbage is pure fiction and it basically belongs in the -- in the garbage dump.
ABBASI: It's a good DVD cover if we've ever done one.
AMANPOUR: Let's get to the crux of this right now because it's been hard to get it distributed.
ABBASI: The movie's out in the United States. It's coming, you know, almost everywhere all the major territories, you know, thankfully.
And I'm grateful that this is happening finally. So this is important to say because a lot of people think that it's still in legal limbo. It's not.
What's going to happen now, you know. It's up to people and if I can ask anything from the audience is to go and watch it as a movie with open minds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And "The Apprentice" is now in theaters across the United States and here in the U.K.
[11:34:44]
AMANPOUR: Coming up, a Trump talking point executing drug dealers. We look at that policy in Singapore prisons. An exclusive report next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
President Trump's closing arguments for reelection include a call to put drug dealers to death. Not just controversial and a massive sentencing escalation. But what would it actually take?
[11:39:50]
AMANPOUR: Well, we could get a glimpse from Singapore. In an exclusive report, correspondent Ivan Watson goes inside Singapore's Changi prison.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Crime and punishment. In the short distance from normal city streets to the depths of a prison, you enter another world, a fortress carefully designed to strip convicted criminals of their freedom.
WATSON: This is a maximum-security wing in the Changi Prison complex in Singapore. The inmates incarcerated here have been convicted of felonies ranging from drug trafficking to violent crimes. And CNN is getting a rare look at this country's criminal justice system.
Under the constant gaze of guards and security cameras are steer (ph) cell blocks, where rules are strict and meals arrive through a small shutter in each prison cell door.
During my visit here, officials allow me to interview one prisoner, a 41-year-old former teacher named Matthew. He was sentenced to more than seven years in prison and seven strokes with a cane for trafficking methamphetamines.
In Singapore, you can be sentenced to death for that.
MATTHEW, CHANGI PRISON INMATE: Yes.
WATSON: Was that a potential threat for you?
MATTHEW: At that point of time, I wasn't thinking about it. In fact, I was actively avoiding the whole issue of consequences.
K. SHANMUGAM, SINGAPORE'S MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS AND LAW: I see this as an existential threat to the social fabric.
WATSON: K. Shanmugam leads Singapore's war on drugs.
K. SHANMUGAM: If you look around the world, anytime there has been a certain laxity in the approach to drugs, homicides go up.
WATSON: Flying into Singapore, visitors get a stern warning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Drug trafficking may be punishable by death.
WATSON: While Singaporean citizens may also face testing for drugs on arrival. This small city state in Southeast Asia is per capita one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
K. SHANMUGAM: The amount that a drug trafficker or drug barons can make by trafficking drugs into Singapore is because the people of Singapore can afford to pay for it.
WATSON: What do you want me to take away from being able to visit the prison?
K. SHANMUGAM: That our philosophy on prisons is not the same as, say, the Scandinavian philosophy. You won't find air conditioning. You will find it to be quite a tough regime. WATSON: This is a standard cell for a single prisoner. Inmates can spend from 14 to 23 hours a day in here. And as you can see, it's not very big.
The shower and toilet are right behind here and there's no air conditioning. And in this climate here in Singapore, I am dripping with sweat.
Authorities did not give CNN permission to enter death row. Under Singaporean law, those caught trafficking certain quantities of heroin, meth, or even marijuana face mandatory execution.
How does Singapore execute criminals?
K. SHANMUGAM: They are hung.
WATSON: Officials say most Singaporeans support the death penalty and argue this is an essential part of Singapore's system of deterrence.
What do you want to say to the government here?
NAZIRA LAJIM, SISTER OF EXECUTED PRISONER: I want to say to the government to abolish this hang system. It's very cruel to take one's life. Just put a life sentence, that will do. That will deter them from committing the crime.
WATSON: Nazira Lajim's brother Naziri was executed in 2022 for trafficking heroin. He was a lifelong drug addict, she says, and not a violent man.
WATSON: These are portraits.
LAJIM: These are portraits, yes.
WATSON: OK.
In Singapore, the government organizes a professional photo shoot before execution for each prisoner to share with their families.
How does it make you feel, him looking happy kind of --
LAJIM: No, no. I know it's fake. It's fake happiness. I know it's fake.
WATSON: But Singapore's zero tolerance approach to drugs remains very real. Since August, authorities have executed four men convicted of drug offenses.
As for the prisoners in maximum security, statistics show that after completing their sentences one in five of these men will likely commit crimes and end up once again behind bars.
Ivan Watson, CNN -- Singapore.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Next up, the Israeli intelligence officer who knew Yahyah Sinwar's thinking like no one else.
That's when we come back.
[11:44:35]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Yahya Sinwar, the Hamas leader and mastermind of the savage October 7th attacks on Israel was confirmed dead this week. How his death changes Israel's Gaza plans or the regional war that's ensued is yet to be seen. But one thing is certain, few people understood his thinking, like the doctor who once saved his life in an Israeli prison.
This summer, to learn more about the man who planned those brutal attacks and kidnappings and who was willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of Palestinians to achieve his goals, I spoke to Yuval Bitton.
[11:49:54]
AMANPOUR: He was a prison doctor before heading the intelligence division in Israel's prison service where he spent hundreds of hours speaking with Sinwar.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Yuval, you said that on the morning of October 7th, you knew immediately who had planned this massacre. How come?
BITTON: Because I know the person who planned and conceived and initiated this criminal attack. I have known him since 1996, and not only him, but the entire Hamas leadership in Gaza. And it was clear to me that this is what they were planning while they were still in prison, and this is the plan of Hamas. It was very clear to me.
AMANPOUR: You are talking about Yahya Sinwar. And you said that when you realized what happened on October 7th, you were kind of tormented by what you did for him in jail. You essentially saved his life. Tell me about that story.
BITTON: In 2004, I saved Sinwar's life in prison. I was the doctor who diagnosed the problem he had.
When he explained to me what was happening to him, I diagnosed it as a stroke. And together with a general practitioner, we decided to take him to the hospital.
He arrived at the hospital. The diagnosis was that he had abscess in the brain, and he was operated on that day, thus saving his life, because if it had exploded, he would have died. He thanked me and the doctors for saving his life.
He also told me that on the day he was released in the Gilad Shalit deal in 2011, that he owed me his life, and one day he will repay it.
And as you understand, he repaid it on October 7th, and that he was also directly responsible for the murder of my nephew in Kibbutz Nir Oz.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you what you learned about Sinwar and Hamas in jail?
BITTON: I had many hours, hundreds of hours of conversation with Sinwar, both as a dentist and as an intelligence officer.
AMANPOUR: What impression did you get of his plans, of his goals?
BITTON (through translator): I learned from him and I learned from the other leaders, it was clear to me that Sinwar reflects the Hamas Gaza worldview.
Sinwar told me clearly in 2004 that they would be ready to sign a hudna, a truce, for 20 years because the State of Israel is currently a strong state. But he also told me that in 20 years, he estimates that we will be weakened because of internal struggles between us within Israeli society. And as soon as they recognize that we are weak, they will attack us.
And they also said clearly that we, as Jews, have no place on these lands, on the lands on which the State of Israel is located.
These are Waqf lands. These are Muslim lands. These are lands that do not belong to us. Therefore we, as Jews, have no right to exist on the lands. Therefore, there is no compromise. There is no compromise on the 1967 borders or 1948 borders. It's either us or them.
Therefore, it's only a matter of time and timing that they will act against us and try to expel us from the place where we live. This is a worldview that they did not hide. He told me that explicitly.
But his way was much more extreme than others. His thought that this conflict can only be resolved by force and the struggle they are waging against us, that Hamas is waging, is a religious struggle. The war is a religious war.
It is not a nationalist war. It is not about establishing a Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, it's all Palestine. He only said this more bluntly than other Hamas leaders in the West Bank.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Dr. Yuval Bitton had remarkable and rare insight.
Next up --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHER, SINGER: I said, you know what, dude, I'm going to be here when you're not longer -- when you're no longer working. (END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame beckons for superstar performer Cher. What she told me about her bumpy road to success.
[11:54:10]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And finally, congratulations to the superstars being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame today. Among them, the Oscar-winning actress and pop icon Cher, being inducted after more than 60 years since her recording career began.
She was here in London where she spent a good deal of time back in 2020 when COVID was still a major threat. But we managed to sneak in a conversation during a lockdown lift. And she told me just how she kept on going despite all the naysayers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHER: There was this one reporter who kept saying she's got ten minutes left. She's not going to be here, you know, in a year. And finally, I said, you know what, dude, I'm going to be here when you're not longer --- when you're no longer working.
And I kept thinking of myself as a bumper car and I thought if I hit the wall, I'll come back and I'll go another direction.
[11:59:49]
CHER: And I mean, I went bankrupt. I you know, it was terrible. Nobody wants to do that. And also no one wants to think of themselves as like a loser and that no one likes you again. So I just had to keep doing this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And that's all we have time for this week. Don't forget, you can find all our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/podcast and on all other major platforms.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and see you again next week.
