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The Amanpour Hour

Interview with Former E.U. Ambassador Gordon Sondland; Interview with Author of "War" Bob Woodward; Interview with Former Georgia State House Democratic Leader Stacey Abrams; Interview with Singer/Songwriter Melissa Etheridge; Central Park 5 Sue Trump for Defamation. Aired 11:15a-12p ET

Aired October 26, 2024 - 11:15   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:15:48]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR. Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We know what Donald Trump wants. He wants unchecked power.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Low IQ. She's a low IQ individual.

AMANPOUR: Less than two weeks to go to America's most consequential election in memory. We look at the stakes at home and abroad.

Donald Trump's former E.U. ambassador, who testified against him in his impeachment trial, tells me why he's backing Camp Trump.

Then "War", Bob Woodward's explosive book about Joe Biden's presidency and Trump's dictator crushes.

Also on the show --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've learned that the louder you are, the more the forces of oppression try to silence you.

AMANPOUR: Stacey Abrams and Melissa Etheridge, talk to me about their new documentary, "Louder: Protest Music for Our Times", and the key battleground state of Georgia.

STACEY ABRAMS, FORMER GEORGIA STATE HOUSE DEMOCRATIC LEADER: What we are seeing is that everyone in this state is excited about turning out and being engaged.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour, coming to you from New York this week.

It is an impossibly close election here in the United States. This despite late revelations by the people who knew Donald Trump best as president. The White House chief of staff, who lasted the longest under Trump, former Marine General John Kelly, labeled him the dictionary definition of a fascist.

He warned that Trump would govern as a dictator if elected, saying that he consistently praises authoritarian strongmen like Vladimir Putin. And he's even crossed that third rail, praising Adolf Hitler.

Now Kelly's warnings about how Trump would set the military on his opponents as he calls them the enemy within are the latest in an alarming litany of allegations from other former White House officials.

Kamala Harris said that he was after unchecked power and called his comments further evidence of the real Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: And if the president of the United States, the commander in chief is saying to his generals, in essence, why can't you be more like Hitler's generals, Anderson, come on. This is a serious, serious issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, my first guest knows who Trump really is. Gordon Sondland was his ambassador to the E.U., then testified against him during his impeachment trial and denounced the January 6 attack.

But now he's back in Trumps camp. And I asked him what flipped him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Ambassador Sondland, welcome to the program.

GORDON SONDLAND, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE E.U.: Thank you, Christiane. It's nice to be with you.

AMANPOUR: So you have been pro, anti and now pro-Trump again. Let me just read what you said two years ago, that you wouldn't support Donald Trump's re-election because of January 6th. You told "The Wall Street Journal", "We are the most admired around the world for the way we turn over the keys to the next leader. And he really f-ed that up. I won't support him."

But here you are supporting him. So, what changed?

SONDLAND: I'm back. Yes, he did f it up. And it was not anyone's finest hour. But I have to put January 6th into perspective compared to four years under the Trump -- pardon me -- under the Biden-Harris administration.

It's been an abysmal disaster in all quarters -- from a business standpoint, from a national security standpoint, confidence of our allies, the way they've treated Israel. I can go down the list.

AMANPOUR: Ok. SONDLAND: And it pales in comparison to what happened on January 6th.

AMANPOUR: Ok. You say that, but that sounds a little like sane- washing. That was a full-scale assault on the center of American democratic power and a refusal to accept a loss, and a refusal to hand over peacefully as American tradition and law states.

You can't really say it was nothing in comparison, can you? I mean, you might support him, but you can't play down something that you thought was so awful at the time, and that so many think is so awful, including around the world.

[11:19:55]

SONDLAND: Oh, I'm not playing it down in any way, Christiane.

First of all, it was not a good day. Number two, Trump lost the election in 2020.

Were there anomalies? Were there voting errors? Was there fraud? Of course, there was. Did it change the outcome? No, it did not. Joe Biden sadly became president of the United States.

AMANPOUR: Right now, we've got 23 Nobel-Prize winning economists of all stripes calling Harris' economy plan vastly superior to Trump's.

"The Economist", which is not some liberal rag, as you know, says, "The U.S. economy is the envy of the world." That's its front cover.

Inside, the headline says, "America's economy is bigger and better than ever." And then, they go on to say that actually Trump and his tariffs will pose a bigger threat to the American people and their economic health and spike inflation again. What about that do you disagree with?

SONDLAND: Well, I disagree with the whole thing. First of all, I think people misunderstand how Trump has used the tariff and how he will likely continue to use the tariff.

He uses the tariff the way the owner of a dog uses a shock collar. They push the button to get the dog's attention.

And in the case of tariffs, there is nothing that has a more immediate impact when you're trying to get a third-party to the table to discuss an issue of vital importance to U.S. interests than to threaten tariffs and to, in fact, temporarily impose them, if necessary, in order to extract the behavior you want.

AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, look, "The Wall Street Journal", again, not a liberal rag, and very conservative on the economy, disagrees 100 percent on tariffs and told Trump so.

The next thing is the huge amount of information, evidence and facts that are coming out about Trump's anti-democratic leanings. You know, because you were there, that he does praise people like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping. These are not Democrats. They rule by diktat. They are authoritarians.

You've just heard John Kelly, a former general, a former Homeland Security official under Trump, and his longest serving Chief of Staff say that he fits the dictionary definition of it.

Mark Milley was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. To Bob Woodward he has said, "I am afraid and we are afraid that we're going to be dragged back to active service so that Trump can fulfill his retribution promise and court martial us." He also says he's fascist to the bone.

I mean, why is it that so many top serving people who've been defending their country are scared of Trump 2.0?

SONDLAND: Well, my own experience with Trump was there was Trump the president, and there was Trump the show. And I had enough personal interaction with him through phone calls, through meetings on serious matters where the show was nowhere to be found.

He was focused. He was decisive. Did he always give the right answer? No, he's not perfect. He's human.

But once that would be over, then the show began -- the hyperbole, the rallies, the silly press conferences, you know, the allusions to people's genitalia, whatever you want to put on the list, that's part of the Trump brand, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you about the showman and the real man, as you put it. You know, he has said several things to different audiences about sending the military against his enemies from within.

To Fox, he has doubled down twice. To "The Wall Street Journal, he said he wouldn't do it."

I'm going to play for you this thing that Tucker Carlson, who's in the Trump camp, said recently this week, about Trump coming back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: And when dad gets home, you know what he says? You've been a bad girl. You've been a bad little girl, and you're getting a vigorous spanking right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: A bad girl, Ambassador? I mean, what is this? No, it's not funny.

SONDLAND: I don't know. I know Tucker. He's a friend. And, you know, what can I say? It was a performance.

AMANPOUR: And finally, do you believe that if he loses, Trump will accept the results, no matter what they are?

SONDLAND: I think if he loses fair and square, he absolutely will. AMANPOUR: There's no evidence of any cheating, not then, not now. Ambassador --

SONDLAND: I said that before.

AMANPOUR: I know. So we would see whether your prediction comes true.

Ambassador, thank you very much indeed.

SONDLAND: Thank you, Christiane. Enjoyed it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: That was the case for Trump.

Now, coming up later on the show, Bob Woodward's new book, "War" in the Middle East, Ukraine, and over the White House.

[11:24:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:29:58]

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Now, one of the most pressing questions ahead is how the next American president will conduct U.S. policy abroad with Russia's war in Ukraine hurtling into a third bloody year and America's support of Israels expanding wars in the Middle East.

The war for the American presidency is high-stakes indeed, that's why "War", the title of legendary journalist Bob Woodward's explosive new book is so fitting. He joined me from Washington, D.C. to discuss leadership and the consequences of Trump's coziness with dictators.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: I first want to start with your assessment of the Biden administration. And you, I'm going to read it. "There were failures and mistakes. The full story is, of course, not yet known. But based on the evidence available now, I believe President Biden and this team will be largely studied in history as an example of steady and purposeful leadership."

You also talked about Biden, you know, like Obama said, basically, we're not going to start World War III over -- you know, over Ukraine. And this is because, as we've reported and everybody, that Putin has alarmingly regularly dangled that saber-rattling when it comes to tactical nukes.

And you report some very interesting and important conversations between the Biden administration and the Putin administration, if I can say that, particularly Defense Chief Lloyd Austin to his Russian counterpart, Defense Minister Shoigu at the time.

What led them to that? What kind of info did they have beyond Putin's public saber-rattling?

BOB WOODWARD, AUTHOR: Well, they had information, this is 2022. It started out very low, that 0.5 percent probability that Russia would use tactical nuclear weapons. It accelerated in a matter of days, really, up to 50 percent.

AMANPOUR: I was fascinated to read some of the quotes and conversations regarding Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, who doesn't often get quoted. He's not one of those who talks much and gets quoted, unlike some of the other administration officials.

So, he spoke to his Russian counterpart, you say, Sergei Shoigu. I'm going to read this. He says, "This could put us on the path of a confrontation that would have existential implications for you and for us. Don't step on that slippery slope."

And then you say, when Shoigu responded that he doesn't take kindly to being threatened, Austin retorts, "I am the leader of the most powerful military in the history of the world. I don't make threats."

And that appears to have caused them to back off. That's what you found out.

WOODWARD: Yes, it was a factor. But this was a moment when U.S. intelligence was able to demonstrate to Secretary of Defense Austin.

Now, that particular interchange, which is longer in the book, I took that a couple of months ago to Secretary Austin because, you know, you -- oh, you've got something that somebody said at a crucial moment, you wanted to get their side of it.

So, I went into his office in the Pentagon and said, I understand this is what you said at this point. And I started reading it. He didn't know that I had it. And he said, that's accurate. That's accurate. And at the end he said, where did you get that? From the Russians?

I, of course, did not, and I told him that I did not get it.

But this is a moment of great peril for the country, and we are now in that, and we should not kid ourselves to think that we're -- particularly with the issue of tactical nuclear weapons.

AMANPOUR: In your book, you have Mark Milley, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who talks about his fascist tendency, worried about being court-martialed if Trump comes back.

And now, John Kelly, former general, former Homeland Security, calling him, you know, somebody who fits the definition of fascist.

Of course, the Trump people, his officials, his spokespeople have completely denied it. But it does fit a pattern of a lot of things that Trump has said publicly.

[11:34:47]

AMANPOUR: Are you concerned that this kind of character who has written and spoken about admiring people like Putin, people like Xi, others, Orban in Hungary -- are you worried about what they might do in office?

WOODWARD: Yes, if I may go back 50 years to the Nixon era, John Mitchell, who was Nixon's campaign manager and attorney general, once said, watch what we do, not what we say.

Fast forward to now, what they say is important, it's part of the story. How does Trump operate? I did books on him, spent lots of time talking to him.

And here is what Trump doesn't do. He doesn't plan. He just says, oh, I'm going to pick that off the shelf, that idea, I'm going to say this. There's no planning system.

You know, and I believe viewers know, that in a national security environment, you cannot -- you're not running a roulette wheel where random numbers come up. You need to plan. And in the case of Trump, there's no team. He just decides. The absence of a team, the absence of a plan is what everyone should weigh and worry about.

AMANPOUR: An amazing, amazing reporting. Thank you so much indeed.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: Bob Woodward and "War".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And coming up, how women have been using music as a force for change. And the state of the race in Georgia with Stacey Abrams and Melissa Etheridge.

[11:36:29]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program. Now, if Americans elect a female president, this of course, will be history. Women have long been a force for change in American politics in the fight for equality and justice and much of that has been through music.

And now a new documentary called "Louder: the Soundtrack for Change" looks at that rich history. It's produced and narrated by Stacey Abrams, herself a well-known political trailblazer. And it also stars singer/songwriter Melissa Etheridge.

I asked this unexpected duo about protest music through the ages, its force for change and of course, the presidential race.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Stacey Abrams, Melissa Etheridge, welcome to the program.

ABRAMS: Thank you for having us. MELISSA ETHERIDGE, SINGER-SONGWRITER: Thank you so much.

AMANPOUR: Ok. So, Stacey, I want to ask you first. This is called "Louder". It's about women making change in music. I get why Melissa's doing this.

But why you, politician Stacey Abrams?

ABRAMS: Well, politician Stacey Abrams became friends with musician Selena Gomez in 2020 and our mutual love of not only the arts but how the arts impact activism became part of the genesis of this project.

When she approached me about co-producing with her, I was ready to do so. Part of her -- part of it for me is that we have the opportunity to tell stories through the arts. And music is one of the most compact ways to tell the stories.

But it is also one of the most effective and transformative ways to engage a community, to call them to action, and to give them direction about what is possible.

AMANPOUR: And let me just ask you, Stacey, is there some -- was there one moment of art and activism, music and activism, that sort of triggered you to make you feel this way?

ABRAMS: I grew up in the Deep South where music has long been a part of both our cultural heritage but also our heritage of protest, and how we've understood our right to expand our rights.

But growing up, probably the seminal moment for me was Tracy Chapman and listening to "Talkin' About a Revolution" and then later "Born to Fight" --

(MUSIC)

ABRAMS: -- which concretized for me the connection between music and action. But also, the power of a single voice to articulate what can sometimes feel inchoate or overwhelming and give you this very chiseled sense of direction.

AMANPOUR: Melissa, you have said, music has the ability to bypass the brain. What do you mean by that, Melissa?

ETHERIDGE: Oh, that means that a song can obviously impact your feelings, can impact your thoughts even, but mostly, how you feel without first analyzing it.

It can -- music can go right into your soul, that can lift you up or make you think or remind you of something. And it's an incredibly powerful tool for change.

[11:44:54]

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you, Stacey, because you were credited very, very heavily, almost single-handedly with making, you know, Georgia for the Democrats in 2020. How are you feeling about Democrats' and Kamala Harris' chances in Georgia, your home state, right now?

ABRAMS: Well, I appreciate the accolades, but let's be clear, I was just louder than a lot of folks about what was possible in Georgia.

But what I would say is that we are a purple state. We are a state where this is a competitive race, and you can tell because both candidates are coming here again and again.

But what we know is that voter turnout is high, that the attempted voter suppression brought by the governor and the secretary of state isn't working. Voters who were told they cannot vote by mail are finding other ways to cast their ballots, despite what Republicans have done, not because Republicans have done something good.

But more importantly, what we are seeing is that everyone in this state is excited about turning out and being engaged. And they know that this election matters because Georgia matters, and that, for me, is the progress we need to see.

AMANPOUR: So, Melissa, I think that you have not been shy about, you know, political endorsements and the rest in the past. And I don't know what you make of the impact of a, let's say, celebrity political endorsement.

What do you think, for instance, the impact of Taylor Swift, who has such an amazing devoted following, who very clearly and very smartly wrote why she was endorsing Kamala Harris. What do you think of that impact?

And then, the opposite to that is, you know, Chappell Roan, she won't formally endorse, she says who she'll vote for. And then, she got a whole load of pushback from her fans for refusing to endorse.

ETHERIDGE: Oh, it's really a fine line because we are in the business of entertainment and that's lifting people up and making them forget their troubles and entertaining them.

And when you personally step out and say, look, this election means a lot to me as a woman, as a gay person, you know, and this is why. And I think youth and fear has a lot to do with that. And her coming

from the Midwest is -- I'm also from the Midwest, it's also -- you know, we don't talk about those things.

You know, it's very, you know, it's very hard to sort of break out of that -- the politics and then personal.

AMANPOUR: Let me just also ask you, because, you know, looking at the trailers and the documentary, all the women are progressive women, the singers. What about women who might be more conservative, women who may even support Trump? Why were they not featured?

ABRAMS: Yes. So, let's understand, protest music inherently is about pushing against a system that is not designed for you. A system that doesn't see you, a system that does not respect you.

And traditionally, in this country, that system has been conservative. And so, most of the protest music has been in response to conservative orthodoxy, conservative laws, conservative belief systems.

The challenge with doing protest music that has a conservative voice is that we have not created a space where that's -- where protest has come from.

By and large, protest music, especially for women, has been about how do we fully insert ourselves into the lived experience of this country? How do we have full access to the promises of this country? How do we create our own American dream?

And to date, that has been almost exclusively coming from a moment of progress. We want to move from where we are to where we can go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: "Louder: The Soundtrack of Change" is available to stream now on Max. And of course, we should note that HBO is part of the Warner Brothers Discovery family along with CNN.

When we come back, why Donald Trump is being sued by five young men he falsely accused over the Central Park jogger case in the 1980s.

[11:48:57]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, a major factor in this election, time and time again, Donald Trump has made false statements, spread disinformation and just outright lied.

And now he's being sued for false statements he made during the presidential debate with Kamala Harris last month. As young men, five New Yorkers were wrongly accused of raping as Central Park jogger 35 years ago. Now, they're suing Trump for defamation.

During the debate, the former president claimed the men had admitted guilt. In fact, they always maintained their innocence and were eventually exonerated.

[11:54:56]

AMANPOUR: Today, one of them, Yusef Salaam is now an elected member of the New York City council, and earlier this year, we spoke about how he kept his faith and resolve while wrongfully incarcerated for seven years for a crime he didn't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Where did you get the courage, the strength, the fortitude, the resolve not to sign a false confession like your other four comrades did?

YUSEF SALAAM, ONE OF THE EXONERATED CENTRAL PARK FIVE AND NEW YORK CITY COUNCILMEMBER FOR HARLEM: A lot of it was my faith. You know, I, for one, just like the others, I'm sure, we kept telling the officers what happened. And for me, it was just this strange nightmare where they kept saying,

well, is this where you got the jogger? I didn't know what they were talking about.

I heard them beating up Korey Wise in the next room, and sometimes they would come into the room that I was in and tell me that I was next.

And so, I was very afraid, and I didn't know what was going to happen, but I knew that I hadn't raped a woman. I knew that -- you know, I was thinking that I was the good guy. I was going to go to the police department, tell them what I saw and I'd be home before my mom got back.

I came home seven years later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And again, Salaam and his friends have filed a lawsuit against Trump's false allegations.

That is all we have time for this week. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/podcast and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiana Amanpour in New York, thanks for watching and I'll see you again next time back in London.

[11:56:23]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)