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The Amanpour Hour
Interview With Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez; Interview With Actress And Activist Jane Fonda; Interview With Shine Collab Director Mela Chiponda; Mexico's Female Cab Drivers Fight Back Against Abuse; Interview With Brazilian Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira; When Bosnia Became The Twilight Zone; St. Patrick's New Mural Honors Migrants, First Responders. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired September 27, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[11:00:47]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.
Here's where were headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your countries are going to hell.
AMANPOUR: Broadsides and bitterness from president Donald Trump as the U.N. General Assembly celebrates its 80th year.
I speak with two of the main targets -- Spain and Brazil.
Also ahead, the actress and the activist, legendary Hollywood star Jane Fonda joins us, along with human rights defender Mela Chiponda on their new climate fund and Fonda's recollections of Robert Redford.
JANE FONDA, ACTRESS AND ACTIVIST: The morning I heard, I just cried all morning. I couldn't believe it. He was such a presence.
AMANPOUR: Then --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'd say out of 10 passengers, maybe six hit on you.
AMANPOUR: The Mexican cab drivers fighting back against the country's deadly misogyny. We have a special report.
Plus, from my archive, a haunting echo today from Bosnia, where leaders tried to spin their own new reality with a litany of lies.
And finally, Saint Patrick's Cathedral here in New York, unveils its first ever mural. Why it's using its walls to honor migrants.
(END VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York, where world leaders came together this week for the United Nations' annual summit. And what a week it was.
President Trump started off by delivering a predictable but still astonishing tirade against the world body and American allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: What is the purpose of the United Nations? The U.N. has such tremendous potential. I've always said it. It has such tremendous, tremendous potential. But it's not even coming close to living up to that potential.
It's time to end the failed experiment of open borders. You have to end it now. I can tell you.
I'm really good at this stuff. Your countries are going to hell.
Climate change -- because if it goes higher or lower, whatever the hell happens, there's climate change. It's the greatest con job ever perpetrated on the world, in my opinion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, this comes at one of the most turbulent times in the U.N.'s 80-year history. It was a kind of global carnage view from the president, mirroring the American carnage of his first inaugural address.
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has been a rare ally, standing up for his own national security and interests and against some of Trump's demands. On immigration, climate, Gaza and NATO, I asked him how his country was managing and why it was ahead of most of Europe when it came to recognizing a Palestinian state.
So here, with the perspective that you rarely hear in the United States, is the Spanish prime minister.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Sanchez, welcome to the program.
Can I just ask you, in terms of pragmatic steps, as a world leader, how do you see this going? President Macron said it's part of a phased, hopefully, you know, path to a two-state solution. What are the first steps?
PEDRO SANCHEZ, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER: So, the first step, in my view, should be to have a peace international conference, where we settle the conditions for this Palestinian statehood.
Also, the recognition by some Arab countries of the state of Israel, and see whether we can find a way for a co-existence, a peaceful and security co-existence between Palestine and Israel, and of course, the Middle East. You know, in my view, the biggest mistake that the Israeli government is committing is how to fight against terrorism.
Of course, there's a security dimension of fighting against terrorism, but there are the two.
First one, when you fight against terrorism, you have to do it within the legal framework. And this is not happening when it comes to Israel and what we are witnessing in Gaza and also in the West Bank.
And last but not least, a political solution -- politics, diplomacy.
[11:04:44]
SANCHEZ: And that is why I think it's so important what happened last Monday, when a large majority of countries and also two members -- permanent members of the Security Council, France and the U.K., recognized --
AMANPOUR: Added -- because now it's four members of --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- four permanent members.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Only the U.S. doesn't.
You talked about terrorism, so I assume you've seen an op-ed and a column in "The New York Times" by Benny Gantz --
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: -- former top politician in Israel. He said he spoke to you early in the war, and he said you downplayed the danger Israel faced, saying Spain also faced terrorism.
He says there's no symmetry between the threats both of your countries face. I covered the 2004 terrorist attack on Spain and others in Europe.
So, I want to know what your view on that criticism is.
SANCHEZ: Well, not only the jihadist terrorism, we suffered the Basque terrorism ETA in Spain for 40 years. So, we know quite well what does it mean to fight against terrorism.
I think the big mistake is to call it war against terrorism, because it's more complex than a war. Of course, as I said before, there's a security dimension of fighting against terrorism, but there's the political one.
The thing here is how do we marginalize Hamas' support within the Palestine society? And this is not happening today, because there's only bombing from the Israeli government and without any kind of political dialogue with the moderates within the Palestine society, which by the way exists.
And they -- you know, just remember what President Abbas said before the General Assembly. He was directly speaking to the Israeli people, saying we want peace, we want a peaceful co-existence, and we will guarantee also the security of Israel.
AMANPOUR: Let me move on to your reaction. You were in the chamber when President Trump spoke on day one of this leaders' summit. He essentially took on immigration and climate change, and he called -- he said, your nations are going to hell, those who bring in immigrants.
(CROSSTALKING)
SANCHEZ: This is not the case of Spain. It's the contrary.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, tell us.
SANCHEZ: So, well, I mean, I think it's well known that we have different views when it comes to climate change and migration.
First of all, on migration, we are definitely -- make no mistake with that -- you know, we are definitely against smugglers, and we're combating and fighting against irregular migration.
But during the last seven years in Spain, we received 2 million migrants, and at the same time, we have reduced the unemployment rate by 40 percent.
And we are now, you know, growing. Last year 3.5 percent, this year 2.7 percent, so we are representing more or less 30 percent of the total economic growth of the European Union.
And this is also thank you of, you know, this contribution of regular migration to the economic situation of Spain.
And when it comes to the ecological transition, the green transition, the Spanish experience shows that when you have more renewable sources in your energy mix, you are capable to drop the electricity prices.
In the case of Spain, since 2017, we have dropped the electricity prices by 50 percent.
AMANPOUR: Wow.
SANCHEZ: 50 percent, 5-0.
AMANPOUR: Very quickly, you have also stood up against President Trump's demands for 5 percent of GDP for NATO. Why?
SANCHEZ: Because when we speak about alliance, it is important, first of all, to define what are the common threats that we face within NATO. And clearly, we have one, which is Russia, is neo-imperialism, let's say, a policy for Putin.
And second, tell the alliance what are the capabilities that you need to put in place in order to face those, you know, common challenges.
So, this is not a question of figures. It is a question of capabilities.
AMANPOUR: I want to go back to your position on Israel and Gaza and how -- what the solution is.
Israeli media is reporting that on Prime Minister Netanyahu's journey here to New York today, his flight has avoided European airspace, including Spain's. Did you know this? What's your reaction?
(CROSSTALKING)
SANCHEZ: I didn't know that.
But I mean, let's say, because I met Prime Minister Netanyahu two months after -- two months later of this horrible and terrible terrorist attacks perpetrated by Hamas. I visited some kibbutz. I was with the people.
And I can tell you, you know, the Spanish society, the Spanish government, and of course, myself, we are committed with Israel. We want the best future for Israel.
But what Prime Minister Netanyahu is doing is the opposite. It's creating more unstable Middle East political situation.
[11:09:50]
SANCHEZ: And this is something that, of course, geopolitically affects Spain and the southern flank of Europe.
So, that is why I'm asking, you know, Europeans to be more engaged and committed with the situation, as well as we do when it comes to Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Sanchez, thank you so much for joining us.
SANCHEZ: It's always a pleasure.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up later on the show, Brazil's foreign minister tells me why his nation is also standing up to the U.S. on tariffs, climate and unwelcome interference into its domestic affairs.
But straight ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FONDA: The fact is that now, we're facing two existential crises -- climate and democracy. (END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Hollywood heroine Jane Fonda talks climate solutions and her new fund, as well as Robert Redford, alongside ecofeminist Mela Chiponda.
[11:10:41]
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Now we're joined by one of the longest acts in showbiz, a star who's bagged countless awards, including two Best Actress Oscars and who's tying her name now, as ever, to the cause of saving the environment, famously getting arrested numerous times while protesting.
I'm, of course, talking about the legendary Jane Fonda. She sat down with me this week alongside Zimbabwean activist Mela Chiponda, the director of the Shine Collab, which works with communities to build what they call gender-just climate solutions.
We discussed the Jane Fonda Gender and Climate Justice Fund for Women. And I asked Fonda about her late friend and four-time costar Robert Redford, why she couldn't stop crying at his death.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Jane Fonda, Mela Chiponda -- welcome to our program. Great to talk to you, actually, about the climate, because were in New York at UNGA and President Trump has delivered a broadside against climate.
Your reaction to that, first and foremost.
FONDA: Well, we just have to talk to him. He just needs some education. He doesn't understand. And so we will talk to him.
TRUMP: Will you?
FONDA: I'll try. I've been trying for -- since 2017 to talk to him about it. He just needs some education.
AMANPOUR: So since 2017, you say, was that the period when you were in every Friday protest, get arrested?
FONDA: No, that was two years later. That was 2019.
(CROSSTALKING)
AMANPOUR: That was two years later. Ok.
FONDA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: All right. Are you still doing that?
FONDA: No. Here's why. After years when everybody's part protesting and lobbying and writing and getting arrested and so forth, and we didn't have still the right legislation commensurate with what science is saying. We weren't getting it.
And we realized the reason is that so many people elected to office in Washington take money from the fossil fuel industry. And so we thought, well, if you can't change the people, change the people.
So we started the Jane Fonda climate PAC, and we elect climate champions all over the country -- Pennsylvania, Virginia, Michigan, everywhere.
That was very serendipitous that we did that, because the fact is that now we're facing two existential crises climate and democracy.
And we can't have a stable climate unless we have a stable democracy. And you can't have a stable democracy unless you have a stable climate. They're interrelated, and they have to be solved together.
AMANPOUR: So let me ask you, Mela. How do you react to that?
MELA CHIPONDA, DIRECTOR, SHINE COLLAB: The climate crisis is not just one issue. It is connected to gender, to gender -- to the gender gap. It is connected to all the other sectors because this crisis is not a single-issue thing that we can say, we're just fighting climate only.
This is why at Shine Collab, we're working on the intersection of gender, of climate and energy, as well.
AMANPOUR: What do you think Africa can tell us, given the fact that they produce 4 percent only of climate pollution and the Caribbean countries, which are the biggest victims or the low-lying island countries produce almost no pollution?
What do you think we should learn and how to harness and work with continents like Africa, which you're doing?
FONDA: 15 years ago at the Ford Foundation, we created the Frontline Women's Fund because we know that it's women that harvest the food, that plant the seeds, that fetch the water, that chop the wood, that raise the children, that cook the food. They hold -- they're the glue that hold communities together.
And so we realized now that what we have to do is if we're going to confront the climate crisis successfully, we have to send resources directly to women.
Today, we launched the Jane Fonda Gender and Climate Justice Fund in order to try to mitigate the climate effects for women on the ground and to --
AMANPOUR: Including in the United States.
(CROSSTALKING)
FONDA: This is all global.
AMANPOUR: This is all global south.
FONDA: The first cohort today, it was Ecuador.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
FONDA: Indigenous people in Ecuador. It was Zimbabwe. No.
[11:19:50]
CHIPONDA: Nigeria.
FONDA: And Nigeria.
CHIPONDA: Senegal.
FONDA: Senegal. And one more.
CHIPONDA: Indonesia.
FONDA: And Indonesia.
AMANPOUR: Yes. I got this.
FONDA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: So look, you know, you have always been an activist. You've always been passionate. How do you feel about working with Jane and having Jane's heft, you know, match your mission?
CHIPONDA: This is what we need. We need more Jane Fondas of the world. We need more frontline women's defenders.
We need such organizations because the climate crisis is not a crisis that can be done by just women in Africa or women in the global majority. This is a crisis that is global in nature.
And therefore I -- this is the time for all people who care for people in the planet to come together and say, we have to do something.
AMANPOUR: Can I take a hard left or right right now?
FONDA: Hope it's left.
AMANPOUR: Robert Redford, a costar of yours, so close -- tell me about him.
FONDA: Four movies.
AMANPOUR: I had the opportunity and the privilege of interviewing him several times.
FONDA: Oh, I loved him. You know, the first movie that we -- you know, the second movie we did together was "Barefoot in the Park". He had just purchased the valley in Utah.
So excited, talking about what he was going to do with it and, you know, and all that. He had a vision. He changed movie-making. He's made a huge difference.
And there's a great hole in my heart, along with a lot of other men and women. He was loved and respected.
AMANPOUR: And you said when you posted, I think, you couldn't stop crying.
FONDA: Oh, God. The morning I heard, I just cried all morning. I couldn't believe it. He was such a presence. I was always in love with him.
AMANPOUR: Did you have a favorite movie that you played with him?
FONDA: Well, I think.
AMANPOUR: What were the four? There's "Barefoot in the Park".
FONDA: There was "The Chase" first.
AMANPOUR: "The Chase".
FONDA: And then "Barefoot in the Park" and then "Electric Horseman" and "Our Souls at Night". And my favorite is "Barefoot in the Park".
AMANPOUR: Yes.
And you? I don't know how old you are, but you are --
FONDA: I'm almost 88.
AMANPOUR: Ok. That's remarkable. And you are active as anything. How is it getting roles?
FONDA: I'm scared to death. I don't -- I shouldn't say this, I know. But I made three movies in one year, and then I haven't worked since then.
And I want to work. And I need to work. I miss -- I miss -- I miss the craft. It's a noble profession that we're in. Getting into the skin of another human being. That's why we're -- we tend to be very empathic, actors do.
AMANPOUR: Jane Fonda, Mela Chiponda -- thank you both very much indeed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Fonda, of course, is still among the most talented actresses around.
Coming up, Mexico City's female cab drivers fighting violence through community. A special report on the taxi company by women for women.
[11:22:53]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
In Mexico, the scourge of violence against women is felt almost everywhere. It's estimated more than 70 percent of women and girls over 15 have experienced some form of attack. Inside the home and in public, women are at risk.
A string of murders and assaults of female taxi drivers and passengers has outraged the nation. But one group of women is fighting back.
And a warning this report from Mexico City contains some images and stories that are distressing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lord, I'm on my way to pick up this passenger. I don't know what state they'll be in. I just ask that nothing bad happen to me. Amen.
GRAPHICS: One in five female gig workers in Mexico City say they experienced sexual harassment while working.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been a driver on the platform Didi for nearly seven years now.
It's a man this time. I'm going to cancel because it's up in the hills and that area is risky.
Hi. Good night.
Most of the unpleasant experiences come from male passengers making advances. I'd say out of 10 passengers, maybe six hit on you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mum was an Uber driver who was murdered while working. Here I've got some of photos of my mom. She accepted an Uber ride as a driver and was kidnapped for 50 minutes. This person overpowered my mom and ended up killing her shooting her in the head. Then he threw her out of the car from the passenger side.
I'm seeking accountability from the company that was supposed to provide her with the tools to keep her safe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How's the warm weather treating you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every woman that gets in the car tells me a story. They've experienced violence in one way or another.
[11:29:43]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think I've got a flat tire. Yes.
Hello there. Yes, thank you.
RUTH ROJAS, DRIVER: I've had male passengers pull on me both guns and knives. One time a motorbike with three men cut me off. They pointed a gun at me and tried to steal my car. They hit me. The next day, I went back to work. I told myself, it's fine, right? But I got to a traffic light, and when some motorbikes crossed in front of me, that fear come rushing back. It was awful. I just thought, no, I can't do this.
GRAPHICS: Ruth and her daughter Karina decided to address the situation by creating their rideshare platform called AmorrAs.
KARINA ALBA, RUTH'S DAUGHTER: In 2022, there were loads of reports of violence in both public and private transport. So I said to my mom, hey, I've been thinking, what if we start a taxi service by women for women?
And she said, yes. I'm not sure how you're planning it, but do it. I'll support you.
GRAPHICS: Every AmorrAs right is monitored by a real person at the collective to ensure everyone's safety.
ROJAS: Here my motivation is always the girls. Knowing that by doing this, I'm saving a life.
GRAPHICS: AmorrAs is part business, part solidarity group. Drivers meet at least once a month to share experiences.
ROJAS: Right, ladies. How are you doing today?
WOMEN: Well.
ROJAS: Would anyone like to share something they've been through, something that even motivated you to get your own car?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was 11. I was on the bus with my mom, and the man behind me was touching me. I didn't even know what it meant for someone to touch your chest. I've never told my mom about it.
Why do we have to wonder when they're going to kill us? Who of those sitting next to me is going to rape me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every action we take, both inside and outside the collective, can make a difference.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The feeling of being fully supported, accompanied. That's the difference between just being on the platform and being with AmorrAs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom was an incredibly hard-working woman. Really strong. She's been with the company for four years, and Uber couldn't even send her a bouquet of flowers.
GRAPHICS: Uber tells CNN it has cooperated with Mexican authorities about the case and is in touch with her family about insurance coverage and funeral expenses.
It says that it offers psychology and security experts as a resource to drivers as well as a mental health helpline versed in gender issues specifically in Mexico.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These months have been really tough because we were a very close family. My sister, my mom and I up against this enormous world that is Mexico City.
ROJAS: I believe that going out to work is not a reason for someone to come and take your life. I love my job. In my car I cry, scream, sing, dance. For me, it's my safe place.
GRAPHICS: Last month, Mexico City officials announced plans for a new gender police unit to help handle gender-based violence issues in the capital.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Women fighting back, looking out for each other and making change which is an inspiration to all of us.
Coming up after the break, Trump and Lula face off at the U.N. as the Brazilian leader fends off interference from America. And Trump says, let's meet and make up.
My conversation with Brazil's foreign minister.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAURO VIEIRA, BRAZILIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: President Trump, of course. Is a very busy man being president of the United States and he may not be well informed. I don't know where he gets his information about the political scene in Brazil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:33:31]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
It's been a busy and dramatic United Nations General Assembly this week, and tradition dictates that Brazil makes the first speech right before the United States, meaning Presidents Lula and Trump couldn't avoid each other just as the two are at loggerheads over the 50 percent tariffs Trump has imposed following the prosecution of his staunch ally and former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro. He's been sentenced to 27 years in prison for plotting a coup against Lula's election.
Well, Brazil's current president clearly laid down the law and stood up for his nations bedrock principles.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT: Brazil sent a message to all aspiring autocrats and those who support them. Our democracy, our sovereignty are non-negotiable. (END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Afterwards, I asked Brazil's foreign minister, Mauro Vieira, how their country dares stand up for itself in the current climate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program.
VIEIRA: Thank you so much, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Do I dare ask you, on a public forum, how you respond to President Trump's speech in general and his specific attacks on Brazil, saying that you're going to fail without him?
VIEIRA: Well, Brazil is a country of negotiation and very open. We are always ready to talk and to negotiate.
The political issue is unnegotiable. There's no space at all, not even one inch to negotiate. But we are ready to negotiate the taxes, the tariffs. That we can do.
[11:39:48]
VIEIRA: Although they are illegal, they are not -- they are in the structure.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Structure?
VIEIRA: Yes, no, in the structure of WTO, of all the trade agreements that we have. But we are ready to talk and to discuss.
The only thing is that we cannot discuss the sovereignty or the independence of powers in Brazil, as President Lula said in his speech.
AMANPOUR: Can you just give me the facts about the trade deficit? Because Trump says that the U.S. has a trade deficit and that's one of the reasons why he's slapping those tariffs on. But I think it's the reverse, isn't it?
VIEIRA: No, no. He's not well-informed. Maybe his advisory didn't pass on to him the right numbers. But Brazil has a huge deficit and it's --
AMANPOUR: With the U.S.?
VIEIRA: -- with the U.S., yes. We have -- over the last 15 years, we have more than $410 billion of deficit with the United States. It's something around $20 billion every year. And our tariffs, the average tariffs of Brazil to imports from the United States is 2.7 percent, which is very low.
The 10 most important issues we import, the products we import from the United States, out of 10, 8 enter Brazil tax-free. AMANPOUR: Do you think the President is still trying to affect what's
happening to Bolsonaro -- I mean President Trump? Because even now that he's been convicted of attempting a coup against Lula's election, you see your legislator is talking about amnesty. So, tell us where all this stands.
VIEIRA: Yes. Well, first of all, President Trump, of course, is a very busy man, being president of the United States, and he may not be well-informed.
I don't know where he gets his information about the political scene in Brazil. I don't know if he has met personally the sons of the former president or how this information gets to him, but they are distorted on the way he receives it.
The trial was very long. There are hundreds of thousands of proofs against Bolsonaro and the generals and people who worked with him. They were all convicted, the first time in history in Brazil that a former President is trialed and condemned because he tried to destroy Brazilian democracy.
There is a huge -- there was a huge manifestation -- popular manifestation in the streets the last days against the amnesty.
They are discussing but if they approve a very ample amnesty, it will be unconstitutional and it won't be applied.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask you another big international forum that you're going to be hosting in a couple of months is the COP. It's happening in, I believe, Belem, in the Amazon region.
VIEIRA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: President Trump said renewables are rubbish, essentially. He said that they don't work, that fossil fuel is the best, and countries -- do you find your use of renewables are net positive or net drag on your economy?
VIEIRA: Well, this is his opinion. We have a totally different opinion. Brazil is a champion of energy -- clean energy and energy transition. Electrical matrix in Brazil is 92 percent renewable.
And as far as energy, it's something like 50 percent or 52 percent. We believe in renewables and we believe and we are fighting for energy transition.
This is a contribution. This will save the planet. That's our position. Of course, he has a different one, but this is up to him.
AMANPOUR: And finally, The United -- I know Brazil recognized a Palestinian state officially, I think, in 2010.
Tell me why you think it's important, what it will do, and why -- and whether you think it is a reward for Hamas and terrorism?
VIEIRA: No, it's not. From our point of view, it's not a reward for Hamas. We condemned Hamas for his terrorist attack. That was terrible. We strongly condemn until today. But this does not justify the vengeance against the Palestinian people.
The other day, there was a former high official from the IDF, the Israeli Defense Force, who said that the number of deaths is something like 10 percent of the population of Gaza. So, this is 200,000 people.
(CROSSTALK)
VIEIRA: And so far, the numbers we are working with is 60,000 or 70,000. So, it's very serious. And that's why President Lula has been saying that it's a genocide.
[11:44:49]
VIEIRA: And that's why we joined South Africa in the International Court of Justice in this question and this discussion about genocide.
For us, it's a genocide. You cannot use hunger as a weapon of war. You cannot do what's going on in Gaza.
AMANPOUR: Thank you, Foreign Minister Mauro Vieira for joining us.
VIEIRA: Thank you so much. A pleasure to be with you again.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up next, a painful reflection on conflicts around the world today. From my archives, how Serbian forces tried to subvert reality, saying Sarajevo wasn't under siege despite clear evidence to the contrary throughout the 90s.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Time spent in Bosnia can be like entering the Twilight Zone, where everyone's reality comes made to measure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:45:34]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
The war in Ukraine and sieges in Gaza and Sudan are horrors that cannot be ignored. But in a world where reality is twisted beyond recognition, such conflicts are often clouded and justified by those who create narratives that fit their most fervent wishes and beliefs, and tell us not to believe our own eyes.
From my archive, history becomes a mirror to this moment. In Bosnia during the 90s, the war seemed to drift into a similar Twilight Zone as Serbian forces insisted they were not laying siege to Sarajevo, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: U.N. reinforcements moving into their Sarajevo barracks are on alert. A day after incoming fire crashed within a few hundred yards of their positions.
In Washington, the politicians are discussing whether and when to call in air power to defend the peacekeepers. And walking through his positions on the hills overlooking Sarajevo, the chief of staff of the Bosnian Serb army hears NATO planes overhead enforcing the no-fly zone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hate them.
AMANPOUR: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they are in my space.
AMANPOUR: Time spent in Bosnia can be like entering the Twilight Zone", where everyone's reality comes made to measure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sir. It was a protected area.
We don't touch protected zones.
AMANPOUR: Yet just the day before, shells crashed all over civilian areas in Sarajevo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You only see when the shelling of Sarajevo and the first thing you do, you accuse the Serbs of being guilty. I guarantee you that we are not shelling Sarajevo.
AMANPOUR: The U.N. hears denials like these from all parties.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome. I mean, this is the madness we're all facing, broken promises, distrust on all sides.
AMANPOUR: On a guided tour, accompanied by two Serb generals and assorted advisers, CNN was shown Serb artillery positions, a row of howitzers, silent on this day, with negotiations underway in Geneva and large caliber mortars that sat quietly under their covers.
To hear it from the Serbs, not a shell has been fired in anger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the Serbs are concerned, we were never in favor of war. The war was imposed on us. We were merely defending ourselves.
AMANPOUR: And so we were driven to burned down Serb villages and, we were told, Muslim houses spared by the Serb liberators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The houses are intact, with roofs on the Muslim houses.
AMANPOUR: And as we left, we were told Sarajevo is not under siege.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, in Serb-held territory outside Sarajevo. (END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Looking back, perhaps the most shocking thing about this report is how much we were able to see for ourselves. We were able to enter and report freely. How different from today's Gaza, which the Israeli government does ban us from entering.
When we come back, a brand-new look for America's largest Catholic cathedral. We'll take you to New York to see the mural that's turning heads and celebrating immigrants.
[11:53:54]
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AMANPOUR: And finally, if walls could talk, the ones inside Saint Patrick's Cathedral would tell a story of faith, belonging and immigration.
Known as America's parish it's the largest Roman Catholic cathedral in the United States. And it's now home to a brand-new mural celebrating humanity and the waves of newcomers who filled the ranks of New York's patron saint -- first responders, poets, farmers, and all the rest.
Over 20 feet tall and spanning three walls at the entrance to the cathedral, the painting takes its name from a song by the band Brinsley Schwarz that was also covered by Elvis Costello.
"What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?"
Adam Cvijanovic is the mind behind this masterpiece. When we spoke, he told me about the symbolism behind the mural and why it's most definitely not political.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM CVIJANOVIC, ARTIST, ST. PATRICK'S CATHEDRAL MURAL: This is not a political painting. And whatever my politics are about immigration are not in that painting except in that, and this is a place where the church and I were kind of in alignment.
It's a painting about showing the dignity of all people and, I think that becomes political only in that the dehumanification (ph) of people is the first step towards a whole lot of very, very bad things.
[11:59:51]
CVIJANOVIC: And as long as you understand the basic humanity of somebody who is other, the whole dialog winds up being in a much better place. So it's -- it has political implications, but it itself is not political.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And urge everybody to visit. It is magnificent. That's all we have time for right now. Don't forget, you can find all
of our shows online as podcasts at cnn.com/audio and on all other major platforms.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week.
