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The Amanpour Hour

Interview with Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-NH); Interview with "The Smashing Machine" Director Benny Safdie; FIFA Backs Afghan Women Soccer Team; Interview with Former CNN President Tom Johnson; When Afghanistan Emerged from a Media Blackout. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired October 04, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:42]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR. Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: As the U.S. government shuts down, Democrats go to the mat for Americans' health care. My conversation with Senator Jeanne Shaheen.

Then --

"The Smashing Machine" director Ben Safdie on his acclaimed new film about mixed martial arts with Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson and finding the heart beneath all that muscle.

Also ahead --

TOM JOHNSON, CNN FORMER PRESIDENT: When the bombs did fall, CNN was still up live.

AMANPOUR: Defying bombs and presidential warnings to break the news. I speak to CNN's former president Tom Johnson about his memoir, "Driven".

Plus, as the Taliban shuts down Afghanistan's Internet, from my archive, a bittersweet look back to the last time the country freed itself from the Taliban's tech crackdown.

And finally, what Jane Goodall told me about proving people wrong on animal intelligence and falling in love with Tarzan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

From abroad, the chaos in Washington resonates far and wide. Are there other democracies whose governments go into total shutdown? It happened in the United States this week for the first time in six years, and the crises are piling up.

At home, battles rage between Democrats and Republicans over health care. While the administration stages an unprecedented massive military gathering, American taxpayers will foot the bill.

And Trump says troops should use various cities as training grounds to battle his so-called enemy within.

So what does all of this mean for the lives of millions of Americans, and for the nation to meet foreign policy challenges abroad?

Joining me to discuss it all is Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen, who's worked towards bipartisan consensus for more than 30 years, but also believes it's time to mount an effective opposition to some of Trumps policies.

We spoke just as the government shutdown took place.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Senator Jeanne Shaheen, welcome to the program.

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Thank you.

AMANPOUR: So, I know there are lots of meetings. I suppose there are attempts by all sides to reverse this shutdown. But you voted for it. Why? Why to shut the government down?

SHAHEEN: I'm very concerned about making sure that people in America can continue to get access to health care at a cost they can afford. I've been working hard to try and ensure that the tax credits, the subsidies that help people afford their health insurance do not end in December, and that people are not facing a doubling of their insurance rates, which is what is being anticipated.

AMANPOUR: Basically, President Trump says he'll use the shutdown to, quote, "fire federal workers, specifically targeting Democrats and to cut programs Democrats like."

So again, do you worry about that and about playing into their game, which is to, quote-unquote, "dismantle" the administrative state? That comes from Project 2025.

SHAHEEN: Well, of course I worry about it. I worry about the fact that President Trump has been doing this from the day that he took office and started eliminating the U.S. Agency for International Development, and cutting off foreign assistance, and riffing all the workers, riffing workers at the Department of Agriculture, at the Department of Veterans Affairs, at virtually every department within the federal government.

I think it's an issue that is going to come home to roost for the president. Because ultimately, he's in charge. His party is in charge of Congress and the White House.

And it's unfortunate that he refused to meet with Democratic leadership earlier and Republican leadership, for that matter. That he listened to partisan concerns and said, we're not going to talk. Don't talk. You Republicans in Congress don't talk to Democrats.

That's not how we get a resolution.

[11:04:45]

AMANPOUR: Senator, you know, there have also been things happening, you know, on the edges of this shutdown.

For instance, I wouldn't -- it's not an exaggeration to say a lot of the world, especially allies, were looking at this cryptic e-mail that Hegseth, the Defense Secretary, sent out to all your military commanders from all over the world to come to Washington.

The generals and commanders seemed not to be, you know, cheering and clapping. There was a lot of silence there. What was that all about? And by the way, who's paying that bill for flying them all over the world?

SHAHEEN: Well, that's a real concern. You know, the United States has the strongest, the most lethal, the best military in the world. And one of the things that has made it so great has been that it's outside of politics, that we look for professionalism in our military.

It's one of the arguments I make as I'm talking to new democracies and developing countries around the world, that the important thing is to separate your politics from your military.

And all this president has done and Pete Hegseth has done since they took office is to try and politicize the military.

We need to demand in Congress to know where that money is coming from and what they are not doing to ensure that our military is ready, because they spent the money to have this foolish meeting that was nothing but a political pep rally for Donald Trump.

AMANPOUR: And I have to say the optics, the pictures, were very, frankly, disturbing. When I first saw the picture, I actually didn't know what country I was looking at.

It looked like they were forced into an uncomfortable situation, and they didn't cheer and whoop. So, my question is, do you feel that they have, by their silence, recommitted to being apolitical?

SHAHEEN: Absolutely. They behaved completely professionally, as we would expect our military to do. You know, it's an -- that meeting was an embarrassment to the United States and to the professionalism of the men and women who were serving in our military.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you also what you made of President Trump saying to that group, because this is also very, you know, relevant to what's going on in your country right now. He basically said, you know, it's the enemy within that we have to be on the watch for.

He claims America is, quote, "under invasion from within", and that the Pentagon should use American cities as training grounds for the military. Do you understand what he means?

SHAHEEN: Well, I think the president's delusional when he talks like that.

You know, I remember the 60s when there were riots in our cities across this country. I remember the National Guard being called in to try and put down those disturbances.

That is not happening now. It is not happening in Portland, Oregon. It's not happening in Chicago, Illinois. It's not happening in Washington, D.C.

And for the president to suggest that he is going to violate the law and use cities as a training ground for our military is just beyond the pale.

AMANPOUR: Do you think the Democrats are doing everything they can to push back on policies that you disagree with? In other words, are you being a strong enough opposition, as is traditional in the United States?

Because, you know, the way we see it abroad is that there's very little constitutional authority that's given to the Congress actually being exercised.

SHAHEEN: Well, I think Democrats are raising concerns every day. I think the challenge is that the Republicans are in charge in both the House, the Senate, and the White House. And so, when you don't have the votes, it's very difficult to move policy.

AMANPOUR: You have been known for trying to forge and often forging a path towards bipartisan consensus. This is really difficult, I understand, right now. What do you think about the prospect of bipartisanship?

SHAHEEN: Well, I think we have to keep at it. And we can't throw up our hands and say we aren't going to talk to each other. That's why we're in this government shutdown, is because we've refused to talk to each other.

And I think in order to make that happen, each of us has to say, we're going to try and figure out how we can move a bipartisan agenda along.

That's why I've worked so closely with the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, Jim Risch. He and I don't agree on a lot of things, but one of the things we do agree on is that it's important to have bipartisan foreign policy and to try and work together in ways to move that agenda forward.

AMANPOUR: Senator Jeanne Shaheen, thank you so much for joining us today.

SHAHEEN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Coming up later on the show, as the Taliban shuts down the Internet in Afghanistan, from my archive, some perspective on just how far this country came, only to be dragged backwards again.

[11:09:45]

AMANPOUR: And straight ahead --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENNY SAFDIE, DIRECTOR, "THE SMASHING MACHINE": In these fight movies, the thrill comes in the win. And I wanted to see if I could do something a little different, where sometimes maybe the thrill can come in the loss.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Director Benny Safdie on his new film "The Smashing Machine", dealing with loss and transforming "The Rock" into a mixed martial artist.

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[11:14:49]

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

And next, to one of the year's buzziest movies, "The Smashing Machine" sees real life wrestler Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson take on the role of champion mixed martial artist Mark Kerr, as he struggled with professional wins, losses and personal struggles with addiction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh my goodness. (INAUDIBLE) is out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is truly shocking.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he's distant, it's hard.

DWAYNE "THE ROCK" JOHNSON, ACTOR: I'm sacrificing everything. What do you have for me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a strong (INAUDIBLE).

D. JOHNSON: A day without pain is like a day without sunshine.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is getting bad. This is getting insane.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want him gone, all right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it.

(END VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Actor/director Benny Safdie has written and starred in acclaimed shows like "The Curse" alongside Nathan Fielder and Emma Stone, and he's also one half of the Safdie brothers, the filmmaking duo behind hits like "Uncut Gems".

But this time, he's going it alone, and he told me all about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Benny Safdie, welcome to the program.

SAFDIE: Hello. Thank you for having me.

AMANPOUR: So, "The Smashing Machine", already it's a pretty aggressive name. I know you got it from the documentary and we'll talk. But you said it's about radical empathy and that you had to make this. Why?

SAFDIE: Yes. Well, it's interesting, because like, I think that there's certain things in life that just kind of strike you. And Mark Kerr was one of those people, you know, where, when I saw him, and I saw, A, what he was doing, which was so kind of violent and aggressive; but at the same time, he was very soft-spoken and very, like, beautiful in front of everybody else.

And I realized that here I was watching a man who was struggling very deeply in his life. And, A, he didn't let it define him, and he also kind of put that to the wayside for the benefit of the other people, and for better or worse, I felt that.

I've had that feeling in my life. I thought, you know, it would be amazing if everybody in the world, you know, could get inside of his brain and have the same feeling, where they can relate to going through something intense and kind of wild, but then realizing that maybe it's ok. Life is going to be ok. Don't let your struggles and sadness define who you are.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you about the phenomenon around "The Rock", Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson. So, here he's being --

SAFDIE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: -- Dwayne Johnson and not "The Rock".

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

D. JOHNSON: Well, where would you recommend I stand then? Because I don't want to get sick on the ride, but I do want to ride with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't want to get sick on the ride? I would suggest you don't go on the ride. Because you can't handle it.

D. JOHNSON: Ok. Well, it's not that I can't handle it, it's just I'm choosing not to go on.

EMILY BLUNT, ACTRESS: OK. I'm going to go on the ride.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I found it really interesting that there was a scene in which he was having a, you know, a real existential moment with the journalist who was asking him, so and what if you lose.

He couldn't even entertain the thought of losing. He just said well, I can't even answer that, it's never happened.

SAFDIE: I wanted to make a movie where -- because normally in these kind of -- in these fight movies, the thrill comes in the win. And I wanted to see if I could do something a little different, where sometimes maybe the thrill can come in the loss.

And that journey, you know, and experiencing their life because one of the best things that I've ever happened was I witnessed a fight between a friend of mine who happened to be my trainer. He happened to win the fight.

But what I found so exciting was my emotional connection to him when he was fighting. And so I wanted to create that for the audience where, you know and love this person, and then you watch them fight and that -- what's that experience like?

And to touch on the point of how he doesn't know to lose, here's somebody whose entire identity is caught up in being undefeated, the greatest.

And I said to Dwayne, in that moment, really try, really try to think about it, but it's not there. And I -- and my favorite moment is when Dwayne looks off and you could really see him, like cycling through the Rolodex in his head.

And this is where his acting, I think, is just so incredibly subtle. And you said something earlier that he's not "The Rock". And I think it's -- we're seeing a different side of who that is.

And who Dwayne is, is he's this magnetic, incredible personality who people really love. And I think what makes it so special about this movie is you're seeing that he's struggled with a lot of pain, and its truthful, because I personally don't think you could give a performance like this if you didn't feel these things.

AMANPOUR: A lot of you in it, too, I think. You've also worked under Christopher Nolan.

Now, he's also cast you in "The Odyssey" which is coming out next year. Nobody knows anything about it except some tickets have been released and they're sold out.

Can you tell us anything about it?

SAFDIE: Well, it's interesting because if I told you the scale --

[11:19:50]

AMANPOUR: You'd have to kill me. SAFDIE: -- at which -- no, no, not even that. I would say, you wouldn't even believe me, the scale of which was created.

And I guess the one thing I could say is it really felt like I was in that period of time, which was a very long time ago. And that's an incredible achievement, in its own right.

And I think for me, when I go and I act in somebody else's movie, you know, it's nice to have to listen to somebody else, because I find it's important, you know, when I then go to be a director, I know what that feels like.

You know, there's a certain level of vulnerability of you have to make decisions, and they could be wrong, and you feel nervous. And so, maybe it makes me a little bit more empathetic when I have to ask people to do that, too. So --

AMANPOUR: Well, talking about working, I'm sure a million people have asked you this, and maybe you're tired of it. But you have worked with your brother, Josh Safdie, many, many times.

Now, you're not working together, and he's got another film out, "Marty Supreme" --

SAFDIE: I know.

AMANPOUR: -- and both of you are generating a huge amount of buzz. Are you competitive now?

SAFDIE: Isn't that exciting?

AMANPOUR: Well, yes. Tell me what that's like. Is it like -- I don't know. What is it like?

SAFDIE: Yes, you know, it's interesting, because, like we were on a path to working on movies together, because the first movie we made was about our childhood, and it made sense to make that together.

And then the next movie we wanted to make was "Uncut Gems", and that just kept getting pushed further along the line.

And when we got there, there was a kind of reckoning inside of me of, like, well, what do we do now?

And it just became clear, like, ok, well, I would like to explore this, and he would like to explore that. And so, it was just a natural progression of things.

And I think it's kind of -- I think it's kind of exciting that, you know, the two of us get to go out there and do what we love, you know.

AMANPOUR: I'm going to ask you a cheeky question. So, let's say he wins an Oscar and you don't. Are you going to be like, Dwayne, it's OK, I love you, it's OK, it doesn't mind, I don't mind losing?

SAFDIE: The truth is, I made this movie to explore certain things about myself. I made it to explore certain aspects of Dwayne, and I wanted Dwayne to go through this process of discovery.

I made it because I love combat sports, and I wanted people to see the ring from the best point of view, and I wanted them to experience that and see the things that I saw in there.

And it's a very personal movie for me. So, in that sense, I'm just proud and happy to have made it. So, I can't really attach it to a specific outcome, you know?

AMANPOUR: I know.

SAFDIE: And I'm just really excited to be with it and get it out there. And if it connects with people, that's awesome, you know.

AMANPOUR: Well, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for talking to us.

SAFDIE: Oh, this was great. Thank you so much for all the great questions.

AMANPOUR: Thank you, Benny.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And "The Smashing Machine" is out this weekend in theaters worldwide.

In a moment, another blow for Afghanistan's women after the Internet was shut down for days. A special report on the exiled girls fighting for freedom through football.

[11:22:59]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

In Afghanistan, cell phone and Internet service has been restored days after it was abruptly shut down, causing nationwide chaos and cutting off an education lifeline for teenage girls and women who are banned from going to school.

Afghan women and girls continue to put up a brave act of resistance whenever they can, in the face of brutal oppression by the Taliban, including in the world of sports as correspondent Amanda Davies found out when she met a group of exiled players here in England.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to start.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So congratulations to the 23 players. AMANDA DAVIES, CNN WORLD SPORT ANCHOR: 7:00 a.m. on a Friday morning in the northwest of England. A milestone moment after a sleepless night awake with nerves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should feel so proud.

DAVIES: Susan, Sevin, Najma, Elaha and Zainab -- all named as part of the squad for the first FIFA-backed Afghan women's refugee team, set to be reunited with fellow Afghan players scattered in exile around the world to represent their country at last.

ELAHA SAFDARI, AFGHAN SOCCER PLAYER: Honestly, just an amazing moment for all of us. I can't wait to share it with my family.

They're probably going to see me from TV, but the thing is, it's how sad it is that I don't have them by my side to celebrate them like other -- my teammates who are going to share with their family.

DAVIES: In 2021, Elaha was 17 and had earned her first call up for the Afghan women's national team as a goalkeeper. She never got to play.

For her and her teammates, their role as footballers and what that meant in the eyes of the Taliban meant they were forced to flee their homes and country.

Elaha's father was ill, so her parents were unable to travel. She and her brother had to leave without them.

I feel very honored being your passenger after you just passed your test. Am I safe?

[11:29:49]

SAFDARI: Yes. Like you guys should trust me.

DAVIES: For everything they've lost, there are so many ways this group live in defiance of the rules the Taliban have imposed on women in Afghanistan -- learning to drive, gaining an education, securing jobs and playing football.

The only thing they've not been able to do is go from playing their football here in Doncaster to representing their country, wearing the shirt of Afghanistan on the international stage.

NARGES MAYELI, AFGHAN SOCCER PLAYER: FIFA has said that Afghanistan's women national team title should come from Afghanistan Football Federation which we do not accept. And it is running by Taliban now, and we do not recognize Taliban.

ZAINAB MOZZAFARI, AFGHAN SOCCER PLAYER: We want the people to recognize us as an international women -- Afghan, and we are tired of calling -- get called "refugee". We've been called "refugee" for four years now.

DAVIES; Because the Taliban believe women playing sports is against Sharia law and have refused to acknowledge the women's team, their ability to play internationally has depended on the intervention of world football's governing body, FIFA.

It has taken until now for them to create the Afghan women's refugee team. Set to take part in a four-team tournament in Dubai in October.

None of this would have been possible without Khalida Popal, the first-ever captain of the original Afghan women's side, founded in 2007.

KHALIDA POPAL, FORMER AFGHAN SOCCER CAPTAIN: We have been screaming out loud. We have been knocking every closed door to listen, to get FIFA's attention, to listen to our voices. And we have really faced silence. For four years, these girls lost their time.

DAVIES: FIFA did not respond to our questions about the desire of some of the players to be referred to as the national team.

It did, however, stress in a statement that its financing facilities and personnel in what it called a significant and landmark step forward in giving Afghan players the international platform and recognition to which they aspire.

Amanda Davies, CNN -- Doncaster.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. To Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up next, former CNN chief Tom Johnson on his new book and how he led CNN through a golden age despite a nightmarish job interview with Ted Turner and Jane Fonda.

[11:32:15]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Our next guest is someone who has helped shape the media landscape. As president of CNN throughout the 90s, Tom Johnson had a front row seat for many of the moments that defined the late 20th century, from the Gulf War to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Now he's sharing his memories in a new book, "Driven: a Life in Public Service and Journalism from LBJ to CNN.

He joined me to reflect on some of his pivotal moments at CNN, and how he overcame a crippling depression.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Tom, welcome to the program.

T. JOHNSON: Thank you, Christiane. It's an honor to be with you.

AMANPOUR: Honestly, to this day, I just laugh my head off every time I read or I hear how you got your first interview with Ted Turner and you weren't feeling so well. Give us a little -- you know, give us the short version of that

fateful night.

T. JOHNSON: We had dinner with Ted and Jane Fonda, my wife Edwina and I. I was feeling badly.

On the way to the restaurant, I could tell that I was becoming nauseous. And I also -- by the time we arrived at the dinner, I was going to the bathroom to throw up from time to time.

Ted and Jane were totally oblivious. They were so in love. I mean, they were like teenagers. But in any case, Ted offered me the job. And I told Ted that I had to think about it a bit.

Anyway, it was a wonderful dinner. On the way home, I was feeling even worse. I asked my wife to pull over. She did. I got out on the side of the road and was very sick.

Anyway, Edwina said, you know, we'll go ahead and take you back to the hotel and to Jane's place. As Ted was leaving, he shouted, you've still got the job if you want it.

AMANPOUR: I mean, I just think that's so funny. You know, Ted and Jane in the car and you throwing up on the side.

In any event, you became president of CNN. And it went on for 10 or 11 quite glorious years, really important, because it was when CNN kind of hit the global stage running with the first Gulf War.

Just again, remind me and remind everybody what distinguished us.

T. JOHNSON: Ted had told me when he hired me that he wanted CNN to be the best network on the planet. I'll never forget his exact words. You spend whatever you think it takes, pal.

So, when war did come down, we were prepared.

And thanks to Nic Robertson, one of our very junior production technicians at the time, now one of CNN's best correspondents.

[11:39:49]

T. JOHNSON: He put in place a four-wire technology that permitted us to bypass the Iraqi phone system, the Iraqi power system.

So when the bombs did fall, CNN was still up live with audio and was the only network from Baghdad at that time.

AMANPOUR: The president of the United States, the -- I think the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the Defense secretary, they didn't want any of us being behind the lines, so to speak, behind the enemy lines. What did they say, and what did Ted say? They didn't want journalists to be in Baghdad when the war went down.

T. JOHNSON: My first call came from the president's press secretary, Marlin Fitzwater. The next call came from the chairman of Joint Chiefs Colin Powell. The third call came from President Bush himself.

All three warned me that our staff in Baghdad was in grave danger. They made it clear that the actions were about to occur without telling me exactly when.

And I thanked President Bush for the call, and I then immediately called Ted and relayed to Ted that I'd had these three calls.

And I'll never forget that moment in time. Before I could even tell Ted what the options were which was to stay in Baghdad, to go back to Amman, or to go to the outskirts of Baghdad, in a very loud voice, Ted said, Tom, our policy will be those who want to stay can stay. Those who would like to come out can come out.

AMANPOUR: Tom, can I ask you, because you've been very open about it, all your amazing jobs, your amazing success, your beautiful wife and family, all of that that came your way, nonetheless couldn't, you know, spare you from a very deep depression that plagued you for quite a lot of your life.

Tell me the worst of it and how you not got out of it, but how you essentially learned how to deal with it and now speak about it.

T. JOHNSON: If there is one message that I try to deliver in my book, it is depression is a treatable illness. There are now medications and therapies that can enable most people to get better.

And I so hope that those who are in the grips of depression, as I was, to understand that you can improve.

And I should also say that it was such a dark, dark period of my life. I did seriously contemplate suicide. I really was in the darkness and was having such a tough time coming out.

And I can't overstate the importance of having a spouse who was able to endure some of the worst of my times. And it was not easy, but she stuck with me.

But I also should say that she was the one that demanded that I go to see a psychiatrist then at UCLA or else.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know, I think that's a happy if a little bit sad note but a happy note because it ended up well.

Thanks for being with us and good luck with this book. You know you were at the helm during a really golden period and I thank you for everything you did for us and for me.

T. JOHNSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And Tom's book, "Driven" is out now.

Up next, after a total and sudden Internet blackout in Afghanistan, from my archives, what it was like when TV and satellites were brought back after the Taliban banned them when they were first in power.

[11:43:47]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Now imagine a world with no working banks, hospitals struggling to function, planes grounded at the airport, no face time or social media, no news from the outside world, and no way to reach your loved ones abroad.

This was the harsh reality for 43 million people in Afghanistan this week after the Taliban imposed a sudden nationwide Internet shutdown for two whole days.

It's now been restored, but the fundamentalist leaders had ordered the crackdown on so-called immoral activities. And it was the most sweeping telecoms blackout since they came back into power in 2021.

For me, it was a harsh reminder of their draconian rule a quarter century earlier when they banned satellites and televisions as un- Islamic.

From my archive this week, shortly after 9/11, when the U.S. and its allies sent the Taliban and al Qaeda packing, I reported on the sudden surge in connectivity again.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The lights are out, cloth covers the windows and about a dozen people watch closely as a TV flickers on the wall.

[11:49:46]

AMANPOUR: With all representations of the human form banned under the Taliban, this matinee crowd in Kabul is getting an eyeful.

"Perhaps the Taliban would have given me a severe beating," says Abdullah, who owns this video salon. "And perhaps they would have sent me to jail." That's after smashing his TV.

Instead today, Abdullah is making a killing about $10 a day at his storefront video theater.

"They're showing us a very interesting American film," says Khalilullah. He and the others say they're happy and they like their freedom.

So too, at the Kabul TV station. We arrived as engineers were taking their live broadcasting vans out of five-year storage, dusting off the consoles, setting up their cameras, eager to be back on the job after five years in the professional wilderness.

"Today I'm very lucky that I'm standing behind my camera again," says (INAUDIBLE) Mohammad. "To record the smiles of my countrymen instead of their sorrows."

He and his colleagues show us their Taliban ID cards when they had to wear turbans and full beards.

"During the Taliban years, we just recorded with our eyes," laughs Anayatollah (ph).

Technology has passed them by. But they say they can't wait to broadcast again. Music and soccer matches, even the next loya jirga, the grand council they hope, will sort out Afghanistan's fractious politics.

Under the Taliban, people who dared own satellite dishes would bring them out secretly at night. Now new ones are being churned out by the day, covered in whatever sheet metal they find. Those who can't afford one make do with an old antenna, anything will do for a city. A people eager to catch up on the years they've missed.

TV repair shops are trying to keep up with demand. Some workers remember the times they were hauled off to jail.

Here, they tell us, the Taliban's favorite punishment for TV watchers painting their faces black, dragging them through the marketplace and forcing offenders to call themselves criminals.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And don't forget, it was the decision of the first Trump administration to pull all U.S. and NATO forces out of Afghanistan that enabled the Taliban back again in 2021.

And all these years later, those people are once again at the mercy of a hardline fundamentalist regime. Only, it seems, the ruling Taliban factions in Kabul are, for the first time, willing to disregard an edict from the mullahs of Kandahar.

Coming up, remembering the remarkable life of primatologist Jane Goodall. We revisit my conversation with the woman who changed our understanding of the natural world.

[11:52:59]

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AMANPOUR: And finally, we say goodbye to the indomitable Jane Goodall, who died this week at the age of 91 while on a speaking tour. Proof of her tireless and enduring advocacy for the natural world.

I got to meet her a few times. She not only shaped my understanding, but the whole world's knowledge of our closest animal cousins with her groundbreaking work on chimpanzees, in the process revolutionizing everything we thought we knew about being human, never wavering in her mission to inform people of the crises facing our planet.

Now, when we first sat down in 2017, she told me how Tarzan had led her to a lasting relationship with nature and to a magnificent discovery.

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AMANPOUR: I want to rewind the clock back to around 1957 or the late 50s, when you went to Africa to work for the great primatologist, the great anthropologist Louis Leakey.

How did that even happen? And how were you employed without a science background?

JANE GOODALL, PRIMATOLOGIST: When I was ten, I read Tarzan and fell in love. And I mean that wretched Tarzan, what did he do? He married the wrong Jane.

I was really jealous. But that's when I decided I'm going to grow up, go to Africa, live with wild animals and write books about them.

AMANPOUR: And you were a woman. You were a girl. You were a young girl. There weren't many, if any, young girls doing that kind. None.

GOODALL: None.

AMANPOUR: There is an amazing picture which actually we're looking at right now. And before we went on, you said, there you have my legs.

GOODALL: My cover girl legs.

AMANPOUR: Your cover girl legs. There you have my -- you said there are my cover girl legs.

Were you I mean, did you get a lot of that kind of guff for your looks? For your legs?

GOODALL: Yes I did. There were people saying, well, you know, she's only famous because of her legs and she's a Geographic cover girl, and we don't need to take anything seriously.

But then Geographic sent Hugo Van Lawick out to take the film. And so it was proof that I was not telling lies that chimpanzees were using tools. They were making tools.

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[11:59:52]

AMANPOUR: She was revolutionary. She was funny. She was gorgeous. and she enjoyed the odd shot of whiskey. And Jane Goodall inspired us to care for something more than ourselves. And her message will live on in the countless lives that she impacted.

That's all we have time for though this weekend.

Don't forget you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week.