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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With New York City Mayor Zohran Mamdani; Interview With European Union Commission President Ursula Von der Leyen; Interview With Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva; Interview With NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired September 26, 2026 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:36]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

This week, a special show on all the world leaders gathering at the United Nations trying to solve the worlds deepening problems.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Mayor, welcome to our program.

MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK CITY: Thank you so much for coming. It's such a pleasure to have you here.

AMANPOUR: Playing host to world leaders descending for the annual U.N. summit, New York Mayor Zohran Mamdani sits down with me in City Hall to discuss the midterms, getting on with President Trump and what he still thinks about the Israeli prime minister and Gaza.

MAMDANI: When it comes to Benjamin Netanyahu, I have described him as I believe him to be.

AMANPOUR: Then Europe's leader, Ursula Von der Leyen, as more middle powers seek closer relations amid a fickle America.

And Brazil's president, Lula Da Silva, fighting for people's dignity and refusing to accept interference or intimidation from his big neighbor to the north.

LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT: He has a way of governing that -- I'm stronger. I'm the mightiest. I'm the richest. I can do everything, and all the others have to obey. It's the stronger law. I don't agree with that.

AMANPOUR: Also on the program, NATO chief Mark Rutte talks to me as the alliance faces its biggest test in decades from Russia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York at the United Nations.

And this week, the world descended on this city for the 81st summit, where the world leaders come around to try to solve the troubles -- a world at war, multiple existential crises from A.I., to the climate, and the cost of living escalating all over.

In today's program, we'll listen to some interesting conversations I've had with the world leaders I met here.

But let's start with the politician whose city is playing host, Mayor Zohran Mamdani, the Democratic Socialist who swept to power at the start of this year and who's captured the world's attention.

In an exclusive conversation, we spoke just after he had met fellow New Yorker President Donald Trump. His political opposite and yet Mamdani has so far managed to thread the needle as he laid out for me at City Hall downtown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. Mayor, welcome to our program.

MAMDANI: Thank you so much for coming. It's such a pleasure to have you here.

AMANPOUR: It looks like the president is on his best behavior when he's around you. He is dignified, polite, speaks gently and of substance. It seems like he quite likes you. It's quite a rare thing for a leader to have that kind of encounter with this president.

So, I just want to know whether you have a trick, whether you have a sort of a way of dealing with him. What do you talk about of substance behind closed doors?

MAMDANI: Well, I think of the many differences of opinion the president and I have, we have one thing that brings us together, which is a love of New York City.

And we are both New Yorkers, and what I focus on in those conversations with the president is how we can make life better for the people who call this city their home.

And so, today, when we sat down for that meeting at Gracie Mansion, there were a number of things that I wanted to bring up to the president.

We spoke about Sunnyside Yard. The potential for building 12,000 new homes in a city where a lack of housing is the number one driver of the cost-of-living crisis.

We spoke, as you heard the president say, about the importance of providing stability to Haitian New Yorkers. And as the president said, I feel very strongly about this. I brought this up.

And I did so because Haitian New Yorkers are every bit a part of this city as myself and those who work in City Hall, and that I've heard about this not just from them but also from developers, from hospital executives, from leaders of the industry that power our city's economy about their concern about the lack of stability in their lives.

AMANPOUR: I just wondered if you thought that you might get to this working relationship when he was calling you, you know, a lunatic radical, probably a communist during the campaign. You were calling him a fascist amongst other things. Things have changed.

MAMDANI: Well, I think we've both said that we'd be willing to have a conversation if it could benefit the people of the city.

[11:04:48]

MAMDANI: And to me, you can hold very disparate opinions and also be able to sit down because that is what this work demands of us.

If I was only willing to speak with people who agreed with me all the time, I would be sitting at home looking in a mirror.

AMANPOUR: I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the big thing that's roiling the media industry and frankly, could potentially change the media landscape in this nation and affect everybody, including New Yorkers, i.e., the consolidation of media power under one new merger.

What do you think about that in terms of how that might affect people who want to get news from various different places, independent news? Do you feel as mayor that it's something that affects you and affects this city?

MAMDANI: Yes. I think it affects the city. It is something that leaves me incredibly concerned. And while I so appreciate the valiant efforts of our attorney general, Tish James, in fighting for protections for the workers here in New York City who create so much of the film that we love and adore, I'm also incredibly concerned by the federal government's decision to allow such a merger to proceed.

Because as you said, this is the consolidation of media. This is part and parcel of why so many Americans have a diminishing faith in media.

And it speaks to a larger corporate consolidation across so many sectors and industries that drive up prices, reduce the breadth of opinion that is shared on these platforms, and leave us with a population that look to these things as examples of why they can't trust what it is that they see on TV.

AMANPOUR: The midterms are coming up, again it's not just important for this country, but the whole world is looking at it for direction of travel. what happens to the United States after the midterms?

And everybody understands that you, so far, have been a bit of a kingmaker, the people who you have backed have won in many primaries and others, Democratic Socialists of America have won in other key states, key cities.

We in Europe have this thing called Social Democrats, it's not a big deal. They make, you know, coalition governments and they are in office and they govern and they have done for decades.

Is a Social Democrat a Democratic Socialist? I mean why do you think people here are afraid of it and plan to weaponize it in these midterms? Crazy communists, you know, radical left, the whole lot.

MAMDANI: Well, I think the attempt at fear mongering is a long, sad fact of American political life for many, many years. You know, when Social Security was first introduced it was claimed that it was an attempt to Sovietize the economy. And we saw similar things with so much of what is embraced now as a fact of life in the country that we hold dear as our own.

And I've seen, you know, over the course of my time in office I've been proud to describe myself as a Democratic Socialist when anyone asks of my politics.

And I've also found that more New Yorkers are less interested in how I describe myself and whether there's room for them in that description. They want to know does that mean you will fight for me?

Because here in New York City there has been a fading sense of relevance of politics to the struggles of working people. And I can tell you that to me what Democratic Socialism is it's to transform democracy from an ideal or a value into something material. It's to extend it from the ballot box into the rest of people's lives.

And so, in our city we're focused on what we call pothole politics where we've paved more than two hundred thousand potholes in nine months. 747 lane miles in that same period of time from here to Nashville is the distance. And we've done that while delivering the first ever free child care seats for two-year-olds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: We'll continue that conversation with the Mayor after a short break. More on the midterms, if he regrets saying that he'd arrest Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu and how his mother inspires him. That's next.

[11:08:44]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

And now for more of my conversation with New York Mayor Zohran Mamdani, who opened up about personal inspirations and why he thinks his success in New York will actually be replicated across the United States in the coming midterms.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: You are a sort of a different kind of politician.

First of all, I think you're one who is joyful, is smiling. You're a little bit like the Alcaraz of politicians. You know, he shows that he's so joyful on every tennis court.

Do you think the way, the demeanor of a politician is important in order to be able to sell policies or give -- what inspires your good humor?

MAMDANI: I have to credit my late grandmother who raised me with a notion that smiling was a good thing. It was also -- what it meant to show your love to those around you.

And to me it's less of putting on a demeanor. It's more about being yourself. Because what people are tired of is a sense of politics as artifice. People want to know that it is actually real and that it's relevant.

And what I've found is the reason that potholes are so important to fill, it's not just to make a New Yorker's ride smoother as they're driving through the city.

[11:14:43]

MAMDANI: It's also that if they look outside their window and they see a pothole that hasn't been filled, how would they ever believe that you could deliver universal child care if you can't deliver on the smallest concern in their life?

So, we talk about here in City Hall that there's no task too small, no problem too big. And to me, I also have the greatest job in the world.

So, it is a natural thing to smile when you get to be the mayor of New York City, especially in a year where the Knicks have won their first championship in 53 years.

AMANPOUR: And World Cup matches and, I mean --

MAMDANI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: -- everything is pretty sporty.

Now, regarding your politics and your king-making abilities as has been demonstrated here.

MAMDANI: Right. I must --

AMANPOUR: Ok. I'm just saying it.

MAMDANI: I know. But the real -- there's one king of New York and that's Jalen Brunson.

AMANPOUR: Ok.

MAMDANI: So, I would give that to him.

AMANPOUR: All right. But, you know, what I mean.

The thing is other Democrats are concerned. Not everybody believes that America is ready on a national level to necessarily elect people who are on the left. Will it translate on a national level? And will the midterms not just be a referendum on Trump but a referendum on the Democratic Socialists of America?

MAMDANI: I think this will absolutely translate on a national level. And the reason that I believe that is while we are an exceptional city, it's the greatest city in the world, we also know that the struggles that New Yorkers are facing are the struggles that working class Americans are facing across the country.

I often say that there's only one majority in this country, it's the working class. And their inability to afford housing, child care, even public transit, that is something that goes beyond any one city.

And when we think about what do the most successful political programs look like in this country, one of them comes back to The New Deal. And if you look at the words of FDR and you read those quotes today, you would be told the same things, that this surely couldn't work on a national level and yet in fact that was a moment in time when the Democratic Party was not only synonymous with workers but was also incredibly popular with those that it was seeking to support.

AMANPOUR: And do you think they've lost it?

MAMDANI: I do think it is a sad fact that to find ambition in the Democratic Party we often have to look to history books. And I'm hopeful that that is changing in this moment, that we understand that it's not enough to simply stand up to federal policies we disagree with, we also have to stand up for an entire working class that has been left behind by politics that has come to think of politics as a hobby only certain people can afford.

AMANPOUR: You said earlier that you want to work for everybody, for all New Yorkers. And that's your job. And that's your belief.

As you know, there's a lot of worry and fear still amongst the Jewish population and the Jewish community of New York and perhaps around the country, very concerned about certain things.

Now, we have videos. We see you in Jewish neighborhoods. You're being, you now, welcomed by Hasidic communities, Orthodox. You're also being heckled by some.

And the time you said in an interview that you would look into or order the arrest of Benjamin Netanyahu, who has been indicted by the International Criminal Court for what happened in Gaza, even some of your supporters said you became a bridge breaker then instead of a bridge builder.

In retrospect, do you think that that was a mistake to talk about arresting? It wasn't in your purview. Was it a mistake? Do you think you added to the fears of the Jewish community?

MAMDANI: Well, I have been clear about the way that I see the world. And I always owe New Yorkers that honesty.

And when it comes to Benjamin Netanyahu, I have described him as I believe him to be, a war criminal and an architect of a horrific genocide of the Palestinian people.

And I've also been honest with New Yorkers that New York City does not have the authority to carry out the ICC's warrant, which, as you said, has been issued for Prime Minister Netanyahu.

And that I do believe that that is something that should be honored, because what we want to see, and we've been talking about this today, is a faith in our politics, a faith in accountability.

You know, I recently met the mayor of The Hague here at U20, and the key thing he kept emphasizing to all of us was the importance of the rule of law.

And if the International Criminal Court deems someone worthy of an arrest because of a violation of those laws, then who are we to say that anyone should be above that? And I think very clearly that everyone should be held accountable to it.

AMANPOUR: You've probably read that -- well, you know, that the current Trump administration is trying to destroy the International Criminal Court. Do you worry? Does it matter to this city, to this state, to this country if the ICC is destroyed?

MAMDANI: Yes. Yes, I would worry about that. Because if we talk about the rule of law, if we talk about a belief in a world that is something more than might equals right, then it means that we also have to protect these kinds of institutions.

And I believe firmly not only in the existence of the ICC as an institution, but also in the importance of the United States becoming a party to that same institution.

[11:19:51]

AMANPOUR: All right. We're out of allotted time. But I want to ask you one final question --

MAMDANI: Please.

AMANPOUR: -- because I've interviewed your father and I've interviewed your mother because of her incredible films, Mira Nair. Did she have a big influence on you and your campaigning or the way you were able to be so creative and to be so film-like about it, so visual?

MAMDANI: She absolutely did. And it is something I can never truly describe as the experience of having a mother who was also one of your favorite film directors.

And I've often said my favorite film is "Mississippi Masala". And for many reasons, one of them being that I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for it, because that's how my parents met.

And one thing that my mother has always said is, if we don't tell our own stories, no one else will.

And so, what I've hoped to do also in the politics that I'm a part of is to ensure that we are telling the stories that are often overlooked when it comes to the halls of power. And so often, those are the stories of working-class New Yorkers who have built the city, but are being pushed out of it.

AMANPOUR: Mayor Zohran Mamdani, thank you very much indeed for being with us.

MAMDANI: Very welcome. Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And you can see the rest of my extended conversation with the New York mayor on CNN: All Access.

When we come back, a continent under attack. I speak to the president of the European Union Commission, Ursula Von der Leyen, about how the E.U. is pushing back against Putin's hybrid war and just how far they're willing to go for Ukraine.

[11:21:19]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Russia is ramping up its hybrid attacks, taunting Europe as it tests NATO's resolve. European leaders are warning Russia is challenging their commitment to supporting Ukraine.

On the sidelines of this week's U.N. General Assembly, President Zelenskyy met with President Trump again, imploring his partners for more anti-ballistic patriot missiles.

So how will Europe respond, and how far is it willing to go to support Ukraine?

I asked the president of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: President Ursula von der Leyen, welcome back to our program.

Tell us about Canada, because last week coming into this summit here, the Canadian Prime Minister came to the parliament in Strasbourg. You were there, you sort of mouthed or indicated that maybe he could be the first associate member. What do you mean and what is the reality of how close Canada can get to the E.U.?

URSULA VON DER LEYEN, EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT: I think we have to reimagine partnership. And with Canada, we do have a free trade agreement, CETA. It is working very well since it's in place. It has an increase of trade from the European Union to Canada of 75 percent.

But we can do much, much more. Cannot be a member of the European Union because of geography is the only reason. So, in whatever sector we want to work as close as possible together, and have an associate membership of Canada, be it artificial intelligence, or be it health, be it quantum or biotechnology, but also the traditional industrial sectors.

AMANPOUR: I spoke to the Estonian foreign minister. And he actually told me yesterday that Europe had been a lazy, fat old cat not investing in its own defense. I see you smiling. Do you agree with him?

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: And he credited President Trump for lighting a fire under you all and getting you to spend more.

VON DER LEYEN: So, I think what I just said is it was time for us to step up and get our act together in defense. For example, if we take the frontline member states that are under pressure from Russia right now, we see an increase of hybrid threats that are less and less hybrid and less and less threats.

For example, the Leipzig event --

AMANPOUR: Yes.

VON DER LEYEN: -- where we had military gadget material, where we had Russian operatives on European soil.

So, we really have to step up and decide together how we are dealing with this. This is the reason why I'm working on an emergency security protocol, which is aligned with Article 4 in NATO, so that we can -- any member state can trigger this mechanism and we can formulate a common, coherent response to this kind of new threats that are emerging.

AMANPOUR: Now, what about President Putin, who it's been a general article of faith amongst you all that he need not be brought back into the community of nations until he follows the rule of international law regarding Ukraine, until he stops the war.

And yet, President Trump has invited him to the G-20 summit. How does that help resolve this war?

VON DER LEYEN: So one thing, Russia was always at the G-20 table.

AMANPOUR: Yes. But not --

VON DER LEYEN: Putin did not choose not to come because he was afraid about the ICC.

AMANPOUR: Oh.

(CROSSTALK)

VON DER LEYEN: So he did choose not to come.

AMANPOUR: -- he's not a member of the ICC. VON DER LEYEN: But if he comes, and I've said that already years ago, in the G-20, I would also welcome the possibility to say directly to him what we're thinking about his war, what we're thinking about his behavior and what his responsibility is.

So, this direct confrontation will also be something we're going to take on.

AMANPOUR: And a final question about social media, which you have made very clear that you want regulations around children's ability to be online and to have access.

[11:29:52]

AMANPOUR: Tell me about where you are with that and what still needs to be done.

VON DER LEYEN: These technologies have not been developed with the well-being of our children in mind, but with the goal to capture their attention and to monetize their attention.

We know the results. There's quite a body of evidence now -- anxiety, loss of sleep, depression, sometimes suicide. We have to do something.

And therefore, we've put forward a proposal that has, younger than 13 years, no social media at all. Younger than 15 years, no personal account.

And in the time between 13 and 15, the parents or the guardian can open a mini account, limited features, and time limited to one hour a day.

Because I think it is not a question whether our children have access to social media, it is a question whether and how social media has access to our children.

AMANPOUR: And I think you're the mother of five.

VON DER LEYEN: I'm a mother of seven.

AMANPOUR: Seven.

On that note, Ursula von der Leyen, thank you so much for being with us.

VON DER LEYEN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we spoke to the Estonian foreign minister here, he was very clear. They don't see any imminent threat on their front line from Russia. And they say they will fight back.

When we come back, my exclusive conversation with Brazil's president, Lula Da Silva, on standing up for his nation and his clashes with President Trump and the tight election race he's facing at home in just a couple of weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DA SILVA: We have a sophisticated relationship with the U.S., and I've said already, it's very important for you not to meddle in the domestic elections in Brazil, as I do not meddle in the U.S. elections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:31:32]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

It is becoming clear a new world order is emerging, one where middle powers are refusing to rely anymore on an increasingly volatile United States. Brazil's president, Lula has warned that multilateralism is eroding, and he used his time at the podium here to push back against Brazil coming under any great power sphere of influence.

Back at home, Lula faces a tight election race for an unprecedented fourth term against the son of the former and now imprisoned president, Jair Bolsonaro.

Lula has previously clashed with President Trump over tariffs, and Trump prefers the Bolsonaros.

Lula has said, do not interfere in our internal and domestic affairs. He spoke bluntly when he sat down with me for an exclusive interview ahead of his U.N. speech.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mr. President, President Lula, welcome back to our program.

SILVA (through translator): It's my pleasure, Amanpour, once again, to be interviewed by you.

AMANPOUR: You know, the last time you were on my program, you called President Trump an emperor. Do you still believe he's acting like an emperor when it comes to countries like yours?

SILVA: Yes. Well, it's a way of governing that I do not agree. He has a way of governing -- that I'm stronger, I'm the mightiest, I'm the richest, I can do everything, and that all the others have to obey. It's the stronger law. I don't agree with that, the longer, the strongest.

I think those tariffs, those over tariffs were based on lies that Brazil has a deficit, trade deficit of many billion dollars with the U.S.

And so, my trade relations with the U.S. has fallen 9 percent, the exports to the U.S., and has fallen 8.5 percent imports from the U.S. to Brazil.

Nevertheless, we had a growth average of 10.5 percent with 57 other countries.

We grew with China 20 percent, with Japan, we grew 18 percent, with Germany we grew 16 percent, Indonesia 8 percent, with Vietnam 14 percent, our trading with the European Union 23 percent of trade growth.

So, I'm not going to just try to cry out about the milk that was spilled on the floor. I'm going to seek other partners to try to buy and sell. That's how I do in politics too.

I don't want to go to a tariff war with the U.S. and neither with any other country.

AMANPOUR: You face an election in just under two weeks. Your economy has only been growing about 2 percent over the last year or so. People are very concerned about the economy.

You are in a statistical tie if there's a run-off with your opponent, Flavio Bolsonaro, the son of the previous president. If there was a runoff, they say it's a statistical tie.

One of the Bolsonaro sons has been in the U.S. also trying to, you know, gin up American sanctions and other things against your government.

What is your view of that? Is it a risk?

SILVA: Well, first of all, there are a lot of people that are convicted in Brazil, but they are hiding in the U.S., a lot of people. They're plotting against Brazil. That's what I call them, traitors of our country.

AMANPOUR: You particularly mean Bolsonaro? Eduardo?

SILVA: This is the victor's --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Are you talking about them hiding treasonous --

SILVA: Yes, he's one of the traitors of our country. He's inflating the U.S. against Brazil.

But the fact of the matter is that, I told President Trump the fault. It's very important for the U.S. not to meddle in the Brazilian elections.

[11:39:48]

SILVA: That's extremely important because we have a diplomatic relation with the U.S. for 203 years. It's a sound and solid relationship, and Brazil is not an anti-American country. The people is not anti-American. We have a sophisticated relationship with the U.S. And I've said

already, it's very important for you not to meddle in the domestic elections in Brazil, as I do not meddle in the U.S. elections.

AMANPOUR: What did he say?

SILVA: Well, he has already said to a lot of persons that he will not interfere in the Brazilian elections. And it's good that he said that. It's good that he should do that.

AMANPOUR: Do you believe that what the United States did in Venezuela is a step on the route to democracy? Do you support Delcy Rodriguez as the legitimate leader of Venezuela?

Do you think Venezuela is independent right now, or is it a client state of the United States?

SILVA: It's very severe, very -- what the U.S. did to Venezuela. The U.S. conveys the idea that they're governing Venezuela. That's what the message that they're conveying. Every document that we read, the agreements, it looks like the U.S. is the big boss of Venezuela.

The sovereignty of the country has ended. This is not good. It's not good for the U.S., and it's not good for the Venezuelan, it's not good for democracy either.

The idea is that we should build partnership with Venezuela so that Venezuela -- I said the other day, if I was Delcy, the president, I would call for election, national elections so that people could choose who is going to be the next president of the country.

Because the way the U.S. is treating Delcy, it seems that U.S. is Delcy's boss.

If Maduro made a mistake, he has to be put on trial. He has to be put on trial, then we have to find out, there has to be investigation.

One country can't charge someone else. I'm tired of -- where are the chemical weapons that everybody said that Saddam Hussein carried? Where are these chemical weapons?

Where's the nuclear bomb that Iran has? There's no nuclear bomb in Iran. Now, they went on war against Iran. And what happened to the world? The world now is paying a more expensive price for gas, fertilizers are more expensive, and the price of food is going up here in the U.S., and it's going up in all countries.

So, where is the reason for this war? Well, Trump said, I killed Khamenei and I ended the war. No, the war was just starting after Khamenei's death.

So, there's a lack of sense -- good sense of the leaders. You have a U.N. Security Council that doesn't work, that doesn't gather, that doesn't meet. President Xi Jinping get to Trump or Putin, Macron and the U.K. Prime Minister -- they never gathered to discuss these security matters. And we had 70,000 women and children killed in the Gaza Strip. And no

one -- the council did not gather.

The Ukraine war is going on for five years, and the U.N. Security Council doesn't gather.

There are many conflicts going on. So, we're today experiencing the most amount of conflicts in the history of humanity after the Second World War.

What is the use or the purpose of the U.N. Security Council? There's only five permanent members, the ones that have veto powers. There are only five.

Why don't these five gather? I phoned Trump, I phoned Xi Jinping, I phoned Putin and told them, gather, gather to discuss peace in the world.

They're the ones that should stop the wars and go to peace. No, they're just fostering on lies. And when are we going to end up with all this?

So, my question is the following: when are we going to end with hunger in the world? When are we going to end with the illiteracy in the world? When are we going to end with the diseases that were already cured in the past, and now these diseases -- some of these diseases cause deaths in the world?

AMANPOUR: President Lula da Silva, thank you very much indeed for being with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And you can watch that full conversation with President Lula on CNN.com.

When we come back, the strength of the NATO alliance is facing a big test, one of the biggest in decades, as some members bear the brunt of what they call Russia's hybrid war now.

NATO's Secretary General Mark Rutte tells me how the alliance is responding.

[11:44:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

As we've discussed, NATO is facing one of its biggest tests in decades, with hybrid warfare spilling across its borders from Russia. The Baltic States are now asking the E.U. for more support in boosting their drone fighting capabilities and they are really on the front line, as is Poland.

Prime Minister Donald Tusk has warned of an impending attack on NATO territory in the coming months. To understand whether the alliance is prepared to stand up to Russia, Mark Rutte, Secretary General of NATO joined me right here at the U.N.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Secretary General Mark Rutte, welcome back to the program.

MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Good to be back.

AMANPOUR: There's a lot of talk right now about what is Russia's relative strength in all of this. So, a new report from Danish intelligence say it could launch a limited military attack against a NATO country in the coming months.

As you know, the Polish prime minister said it could send drones or missiles within months. One of your NATO deputy commanders says that he's becoming, Putin, increasingly cavalier, dangerous and risk- accepting.

[11:49:47]

AMANPOUR: What do you say to that? How much concern is there about him really testing the boundaries?

RUTTE: We have plenty prepared for this. NATO is a defensive alliance and my message to anyone in NATO territory is, first of all, stay calm. Because we know Putin is not on the right track now when it comes to Ukraine.

Russia is losing over 43,000 men a month, seriously wounded or dead in Ukraine. So, he's not in a good place. And what he tries to do, of course, is to play us apart. And we should not step into the trap.

My second message is, carry on because Europeans are spending so much more on defense. We have to rapidly do more of that. Make sure we are not only stronger today, but also stronger tomorrow.

And finally, we have to make sure that we keep Ukraine full in focus and the support for Ukraine going.

We've got -- we've got this. We are prepared. Russia is not strong.

And obviously when it comes to hybrid, we have all the response options we need, not always visible, not always tit-for-tat, not always public. But you can be assured we defend ourselves.

AMANPOUR: When you look around, and obviously the war on Iran has complicated matters a lot, including using up all the weapons that are needed in Ukraine.

What is the biggest challenge over the next, let's say -- let's say three months?

RUTTE: Well again, for the Europeans, for me, it means --

AMANPOUR: Yes. For NATO. RUTTE: -- keep on working what you're doing, that is spending so much

more, ramping up your defense industry, making sure we are not only strong today but also strong tomorrow, understanding that Putin is not in a good place, that he tries to divide us, that he will never be successful at doing that.

But also signaling, clearing to the Russians, hey this is a defensive alliance but if you try something against us, we stand ready to defend ourselves.

And when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz, of course, I know the American president and the whole system here in the United States is trying to open the Strait again, to bring this war to an end.

But I'm still absolutely believing that it is important that the nuclear capability of Iran is severely degraded, that the ballistic missile capability of Iran is severely degraded because this was a threat, not only to Israel and the Middle East but also to Europe.

AMANPOUR: What about a former NATO commander, before you became secretary general, who is now the president of Czech Republic, Petr Pavel.

RUTTE: Yes.

AMANPOUR: He told me a few months ago that he thought Putin -- because the whole defense industrial system there is geared to this war, that he almost doesn't have a way out, that he has to keep kind of doubling down and doubling down and that he might actually try to provoke NATO in a way, some kind of incursion, to then show to the world that actually NATO is not going to stand up and it's not going to be united and push him back.

RUTTE: Well, I can assure you that when it comes to the United States, the White House, the Pentagon and the State Department, all the allies in Europe and Canada, that if something like that happens, we are ready. We will defend ourselves and more importantly Putin knows this --

AMANPOUR: Yes.

RUTTE: -- and this is why he will not try it, I believe, not even a small thing.

In the hybrid domain, we might see more and there, again, we have all the response options we need.

But to be sure that we can do this not only today but also prevent this from happening in the future --

AMANPOUR: Yes.

RUTTE: -- we have to continue in what we are doing at the moment and that is ramping up the spending and the production and support in Ukraine. That's exactly what we are doing. We will not let ourselves played the part that we're divided, we will not step into that trap and that is what I'm getting also here in New York from all my colleagues in NATO.

Mark, we have to stay the course, this is exactly the right approach.

AMANPOUR: All right. Secretary General, thank you very much.

RUTTE: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back as the 81st U.N. General Assembly comes to a close, we heard the challenges weighing down the world. Some bright spots -- after a break.

[11:53:42]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And a final thought from here in New York as we wrap up this week of coverage from the U.N. It's coming to a close, and we have seen and spent this hour discussing a lot of the challenges the world faces.

It can, of course, feel overwhelming. It is. And that bodies like the United Nations, we feel, are achieving very little.

But it isn't the whole story. As tough as it is, we do want to end with some solutions, some hope, and how things could be working better.

Here's what the U.N. Humanitarian Relief chief Tom Fletcher, told me about "shaking down leaders", his words, not mine, to fundraise $23 billion to save tens of millions of lives this year alone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM FLETCHER, U.N. UNDER SECRETARY GENERAL FOR HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS: What I'm trying to do here, because we talk about the world being dangerous and bleak and it's all impossible and overwhelming. And I think people feel it's all somehow out of control.

We're trying to do something extraordinary in the middle of that 87 million lives is more people than died in the Second World War. And were setting out to save that number of lives this year.

And as I say, we've reached almost half of that number already. And these are in places like Sudan, South Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Mali, Burkina Faso, globally.

And the world is responding. The money is coming in and its coming in behind a prioritized strategic plan. We've done the efficiency work to take out the duplication, to take out anything that gets between the taxpayer and saving lives.

[11:59:48]

FLETCHER: But my goodness, we've got to work harder to raise that money now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So Tom Fletcher giving us the story. It's not the whole story. The job is still to be done.

And he gave me this ten-point chart of what he wants to insist that the world leaders do to make life better for the people who really rely on it.

That is all we have time for though this week. Don't forget you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York. Thank you for watching, and I'll see you again next week back in London.