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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Supreme Court Allows Drug Testing in Schools; Will Terrorists Attack Via Internet?

Aired June 27, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight, drug testing in schools. Is your workplace next?

ANNOUNCER: This teenager fought against drug testing in schools.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSAY EARLS, FORMER STUDENT, TECUMSEH H.S.: Just because we're going to school doesn't give them the right to be able to just come in and take things from our bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: All the way to the Supreme Court and lost. Tonight, her story, her fight, one-on-one with Connie Chung.

Is the U.S. now in a virtual war? Could the next terrorist strike come across the Internet? Are al Qaeda hackers ready to strike?

WorldCom workers want to tell you the inside story, but the company says they can't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You must treat your shareholders and employees with respect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the workers and the one man whose job it is to curb corporate abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Could you live 17 years without heat, electricity or running water? He lives off the land by choice. A first-person look at a modern day mountain man.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

The Supreme Court ruled today that any student who participates in extracurricular activities at a public middle school or high school can be made to take a urinalysis drug test. The ruling says that schools don't need a reason for the testing as long as the student is in some extracurricular activity. Justice Clarence Thomas wrote that such activities come with a lower right to privacy. And Bush administration lawyers also argued that it would be constitutional for schools to test any student at all, a question the judges indicated they may want to address in the future.

The case arose after Oklahoma's Tecumseh High School started testing students. School officials said there was a drug problem at the school. Students who wanted to stay in extracurricular activities had to provide a urine sample while a teacher listened outside to prevent cheating.

Out of 505 students tested, three came back positive. Although her test results were negative, Lindsay Earls was angry. She sued and her case went all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court. Lindsay Earls joins us tonight. Thank you for coming.

EARLS: Thanks.

CHUNG: Tell me, I know you were really thrilled when the U.S. Supreme Court took your case, but unfortunately for you it didn't come out to be a positive ruling for you. How did you find out about the ruling and what was your reaction?

EARLS: This morning, Graham (ph) called me and I was in my room and...

CHUNG: Your lawyer?

EARLS: Yes. And I actually, after he called me, I called my parents and then I laid down on the floor and cried for about 20 minutes.

CHUNG: Really? Why was it something that you would actually cry about?

EARLS: This is something that I've invested a lot of time in. I've been thinking about this for four years non-stop and it was just something that was -- you know, it was a big part of my life.

CHUNG: You had your hopes pinned on it?

EARLS: Yes.

CHUNG: Well, let's go back then to 1998. Exactly why were you so outraged when you had to take this urinalysis test? EARLS: I thought that the drug testing was such an invasion of my privacy as an American citizen. I didn't feel like I should have to prove to my school that I wasn't using drugs when I wasn't even in an activity that was dangerous to my physical body or anyone else's.

CHUNG: Well, but the reality is is, you know, the school had said it had a drug problem. And the school wanted to do something about it. Don't you think that there is some value to saying that you can keep maybe those three kids off drugs, you know, with this deterrent?

EARLS: I really don't feel like it's a deterrent, though because I know that when I was upset, there were also other students who were upset. And rather than filing a case against it, they actually just dropped out of the activities. And the extracurricular activities are proven to keep kids off drugs. So I feel like the drug testing is really a deterrent to kids who are going to participate in an activity, and thereby keeping them off the streets, you know, kicking a can or whatever.

CHUNG: You mean it will keep kids from going into extracurricular activities?

EARLS: Right. Right.

CHUNG: I know that you pinned your hopes on this, but in the long run, don't you see that if some kids can be kept off drugs and, you know, are detected or whatever, even if they're athletes or non- athletes, that there is some value? There's -- what other way can a school combat drugs?

EARLS: I really don't feel like the drug test combats drugs at all. Maybe they caught the three kids, but those three kids were athletes so they could have been tested anyway. And I really don't feel like it's a combatant at all.

CHUNG: Well, what about -- you're now in college, right?

EARLS: Yes.

CHUNG: Do you see drugs rampant there?

EARLS: I've heard of kids using drugs. I still don't use drugs.

CHUNG: I know. You even described yourself as a goody two shoes, right? You're an honor student, don't drink, right, don't do drugs?

EARLS: Right.

CHUNG: So what do you do now?

EARLS: I go to college, and the work takes up a lot of our time at Dartmouth.

CHUNG: All right. And you go on your way? EARLS: Yes.

CHUNG: All right. Well, thank you so much for being with us.

EARLS: Thanks.

CHUNG: Tonight, terror watch moving to a new front, cyberspace. Today, the "Washington Post" reports that al Qaeda is pursuing deadly sabotage by remote control. Oop, my dear. That's all right.

EARLS: I'm so sorry.

CHUNG: No, it's OK. You didn't know that the camera was right there. It's OK. Why don't you go that way. All right. No problem. All right. We can come back now.

Much of America's vital infrastructure is computer-controlled and linked to the Internet. Because of that, the "Post" reports that U.S. officials are concerned about dozens of scenarios of Internet attacks. Here are some of them. Hackers make their way into a dam's control system, throwing open floodgates to send billions of gallons of water into populated areas. Or they can seize control of the valves that channel sewer and water lines, poisoning a city's water supply.

In a traditional terrorist attack, a city's electricity could be shut down by hacking into the computerized power grid. Perhaps most chilling, in a replay of 9/11, they could hack into the air traffic system and prevent controllers from grounding endangered aircraft. These are just some of the scenarios outlined in today's report by Barton Gellman of the "Washington Post" who broke the story.

Bart, thank you for being with us tonight.

Obviously, we're not talking about just a computer virus or anything like that. The FBI is actually concerned about combining conventional attacks such as a bombing with a cyber attack. Can you explain how that would happen?

BARTON GELLMAN, "WASHINGTON POST": Sure. Let's suppose you could take electricity down briefly. That happens in big winter storms. By itself, it's not a huge deal. But if it happens at the same time as another explosion or emergency takes place, and it means that traffic gets gridlocked, that people can't call for help, that other essential services aren't running, then it magnifies the impact.

And the way it's supposed to happen, if it happens, is that someone hacks into the small computers that actually throw switches in this modern world.

CHUNG: What systems are the most vulnerable, would you say?

GELLMAN: Well, there's a particular kind of digital device that operates physical structures. It works in dams, as you've said. It works on the North American power grid, telephone systems, air traffic control, water supplies. Every piece of vital infrastructure in the country needs it. CHUNG: Has this ever happened before. I mean, some example of how this could happen?

GELLMAN: No terrorist has ever done it, but a 12-year-old boy has.

CHUNG: You're kidding?

GELLMAN: In Arizona, there's a place called the Roosevelt Dam. And a 12-year-old hacked into it just for fun. He didn't know it and he didn't really care about it, but he actually had complete command of the floodgates. And so, I looked it up. The Roosevelt Dam holds back the Salt River. And at its peak, it has 489 trillion gallons sitting up river of Phoenix, Mesa and Tempe.

CHUNG: All right. Any other -- have there been any other instances?

GELLMAN: There is one guy in Australia who did do this sort of damage on purpose. He wasn't a terrorist. He was an unhappy employee and an aspiring consultant for a water treatment or sewage plant. He hacked into it, and he released some millions of gallons of raw sewage into the beachfront community in Queensland, Australia, which while it may not be a terrorist catastrophe, if you were in the immediate vicinity, you would think it was pretty catastrophic.

CHUNG: Well, tell me this. How imminent do government officials believe such an attack is?

GELLMAN: The truth is they don't know and there's a difference of view on this among the 13 intelligence agencies and offices of the U.S. government. There are those in the Pentagon especially who think that this is not a capability that al Qaeda is likely to have right now. And they're not even sure that al Qaeda is that interested. That organization likes to blow things up spectacularly.

There are a lot of others who are in charge of protecting the civilian infrastructure who think it is a big concern. And there is evidence that al Qaeda is teaching itself how to do this.

CHUNG: I think one of the quotes that you got was it's not if when -- I mean, it's not if, but when. And that, I have to tell you, really frightens me.

GELLMAN: Yes. And that comes from the chief of staff of the president's cyberspace protection agency. So he's the one who is supposed to know about this stuff. What he's referring to is, they know that al Qaeda has been conducting reconnaissance surveillance of these systems.

They know that al Qaeda has been learning how to use -- to operate the specific digital controls of these systems, and they know that they're talking about hiring criminal hackers.

CHUNG: How does the government know? I think one of the most fascinating things in your article, that I read, had to do with the seizing of equipment and discovering it in a computer.

GELLMAN: Yes, well, there's two different ins. On the receiving end, there was a police detective, a high-tech detective in Mountain View, California, which has plenty of high-tech, who noticed that there was this strange pattern of electronic trails leading into the city police department, local utilities, and they were honing in on these control systems.

On the other end, the computers that have been seized in Afghanistan have had signs that they were doing exactly the same sort of reconnaissance, and that they were downloading publicly available information on how these systems work.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much for being with us, Bart. We appreciate it.

Now to CNN's justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, in Washington, who's been following this story. Kelli, how is the Bush Administration dealing with this?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Connie, the administration has recognized for years that this has been a problem and have been trying to identify exactly where the vulnerabilities are before any action can be taken to remedy them.

Terrorism experts say that, first, the appointment of Richard Clarke as the president's cyber-security adviser back in December was an excellent move, but sources say that Clark has met with great frustration in trying to get some officials, both in and out of government, to make this a priority.

Now, part of the problem is that there are different offices in the government that are responsible for cyber security. Now, they will be merged into the new homeland security department to try to centralize the effort, and at least that's a good start, Connie.

CHUNG: Most of the companies that control our infrastructure are privately owned. How is the government going to deal with that?

ARENA: You're right. Power grids, critical systems like water, transportation all controlled by the private sector. The government can suggest but it can't force companies to make security a priority. There have been meetings to try to underscore the importance of security.

There have been meetings in the last year between the government and the private sector to try to underscore the importance of security. The FBI's national infrastructure protection center, known as NIPC, has also set up partnerships with private corporations toward that end.

After 9/11 there is more of a realization that this threat exist. But even when these companies do make security a priority, many of these systems were built years ago, without security in mind, and specialists don't even know that the vulnerabilities exist. There's a lot of work to be done, it's costly, and there's little return. CHUNG: Kelli, before I let you go, I want you to you bring us up to date on the story that you broke earlier today about terror-related kiosks.

ARENA: More than 60 people there have been interviewed by the FBI and the INS. They are believed to be Pakistani nationals. They are either the owners or employers of jewelry kiosks that are located in the nation's shopping malls. Some people interviewed are in INS custody for visa violations.

No criminal charges have been filed. There is no evidence of a terrorist connection, but investigators are looking into the possibility that some of these individuals may be sending money back to Pakistan to fund terror operations. Again, no proof of that yet, but they're looking real hard, Connie.

CHUNG: Thank you so much, Kelli Arena.

Still ahead, WorldCom employees are too scared to talk. We'll talk to the man who has filed charges against WorldCom, the head of the SEC.

Announcer: Up next, it's, "Sorry, wrong number," for WorldCom workers. Who really pays the price of a multi-billion dollar corporate scandal?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

What we're looking at isn't a mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And later, no food, no lights. Could you survive in the woods? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Convicted hacker Kevin Mitnick says the FBI portrayed him like MacGyver, TV's impossibly inventive secret agent. What he really was was one of the first and most famous hackers, making his way into corporate phone and computer systems almost at will.

Mitnick, alias "the Condor," was one of the FBI's most wanted criminals, and spent two years as a fugitive. His victims included top computer and software companies and a computer security expert at the federally funded supercomputer center.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN MITNICK, HACKER: My crimes were simple crimes of trespass. I've acknowledged since my arrest in February 1995 that the actions I took were illegal, and that I committed invasions of privacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Mitnick did five years in prison. He says he was denied computer access because officials claimed he could launch U.S. missiles just by whistling into a telephone. So what's America's most notorious hacker doing now that he's a free man? The answer when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: What has hacker Kevin Mitnick been doing since his release from prison in 2000? Aside from a guest shot with star Jennifer Garner on the ABC show "Alias," Mitnick spends much of his time consulting and writing, but not on a computer. Terms of his probation prevent him from even touching a computer until 2003.

CHUNG: If you think the WorldCom scandal has nothing to do with you, listen to this.

Even if you don't directly invest in the telecommunications giant, many mutual funds and pension plans do. Take a look at the WorldCom losses hitting Americans in some of the country's biggest pension plans.

California, more than a half billion dollars. New York, $300 million. Michigan, $116 million. Florida, $85 million. Already the Securities and Exchange commission has filed fraud charges. The Justice Department may be close behind.

And WorldCom announced it's going to be laying off 17,000 people starting tomorrow. In fact, we've also been hearing reports that WorldCom employees were told they would lose their severance if they talked to the media. And we had even booked one of them for our program tonight, but at the 11th hour tonight, he joined the ranks of so many other WorldCom employees we spoke to, who all said they were afraid to talk.

We do have, though, the man who brought fraud charges against WorldCom, SEC chairman Harvey Pitt. Thank you for being with us.

HARVEY PITT, SEC CHAIRMAN: It's good to be here.

CHUNG: Where was the SEC when this company -- you should have been protecting these employees and the investors. Where was the SEC?

PITT: We were investigating WorldCom and we were bringing actions against any companies that engage in accounting shenanigans.

CHUNG: You've been investigating since March, haven't you?

PITT: We've been investigating for a time. This was...

CHUNG: So why didn't you act sooner, instead of waiting for WorldCom to go into bankruptcy?

PITT: Well, it's not yet in bankruptcy. And we acted within 12 hours of getting this information. That sort of sets an all-time record.

CHUNG: Forgive me, I thought you had been investigating since -- for several months...

PITT: We'd been investigating other issues. These charges are fresh from the disclosures that were made yesterday.

CHUNG: I see.

In your estimation -- I mean, and I'm sure you would agree -- the president thinks it's outrageous. I think the general public does as well. And there has been clearly a loss of confidence in corporate America, in investor confidence.

What can the SEC do to restore that?

PITT: We can do a number of things. First of all, any corporate official who engages in the kind of shenanigans we are seeing will be treated with great severity. We're taking away the monies that they made. We're taking away their bonuses. We're taking away their stock options. And we're getting orders -- seeking orders to prevent them from ever serving at any other public company in an officer/director capacity.

CHUNG: You know, they say if you go into the kitchen and you find a cockroach, you just know that there are many more there.

Are you taking clear action against other CEOs if you even question what their bottom line is?

PITT: We are indeed. In the 10 months that I've been here, the number of issues that have arisen that have been festering for years is just unthinkable.

And we will not be satisfied as long as any investor is mistreated or any employee is mistreated.

One of the things that we did the minute this story hit was to order that the thousand top company CEOs certify to the SEC and to the public that their prior filings were accurate.

If they lie about that, they go to jail.

CHUNG: Now, you had come under criticism when you were -- first took over the job of SEC chairman. Certainly the questions revolved around the revolving door; that is, that you represented, for 23 years, companies like Arthur Andersen, Merrill Lynch. And could you -- would you be going easy on these companies, your old friends, or would you be tough?

PITT: Well, I first started my career at the SEC. And that was my first 10 years. And people thought I was a pretty zealous and aggressive regulator. I'm proud of that reputation.

After I left the SEC, I did represent a number of companies, but I represented them in the public interest, not to try and get around laws or break requirements.

And now I've given up all those clients for the best client of all, the American investing public. And I'm going to make sure that they get a fair shake in this market.

CHUNG: Tell me, do you need to recuse yourself if, indeed, the Martha Stewart case comes before the SEC -- that you need to take action regarding that particular case?

PITT: In any individual case, I have to look at the circumstances. I pledged to take off a year from any former client, not because it was impossible for me to be objective, but because we wanted to eliminate any question of an appearance of favoritism.

Once the year is up, I will evaluate cases on a case-by-case basis. But I think the American investing public wants me on the job. And I'm here for them.

CHUNG: All right, you've got your work cut out for you.

PITT: I'll say.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much for being with us.

PITT: Very nice to meet you.

CHUNG: Still ahead: New developments out of Salt Lake City in the case of the missing 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Let's go right to Anderson Cooper in New York for a quick check of tonight's developing stories to the minute -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks Connie.

The Supreme Court says it is OK for students to use vouchers to attend private or parochial schools. Tax dollars fund the voucher program. President Bush called the decision a landmark ruling, and a victory for American families.

The world's richest countries today vowed to help some of the poorest. G-8 leaders meeting in Canada signed off on a developmental plan for Africa. Critics say the blueprint is big on advice, short on cash.

Amtrak says it hasn't accepted all the conditions yet, but the U.S. Treasury Department is willing to give the rail company an immediate $100 million loan, as long as Amtrak agrees to the Bush administration's stipulations. Another $170 million would come from Congress later this summer.

John Entwistle, a member of the rock group The Who has died. Entwistle is considered one of the greatest bass guitar players of all time. An autopsy will be performed. John Entwistle was 57 years old.

And finally, the millionaire with a passion for setting records is halfway home. Steve Fossett officially hit the midway mark today in his latest bid to circle the world solo in a hot air balloon. Fossett glided over the South Atlantic just east of Argentina. The latest threat from al Qaeda may involve cyberterrorism. How legitimate are those threats? Well, earlier Connie talked about convicted computer hacker Kevin Mitnick. We'll talk to him on "NEWSNIGHT" and get his thoughts tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.

Now we go back to CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT -- Connie.

CHUNG: Anderson, you're doing NEWSNIGHT tonight. I'm sure I'm going to watch you.

COOPER: Great.

CHUNG: Good.

When we come back, more on the developments unfolding tonight in the missing Elizabeth Smart Case. We'll take you live to Salt Lake City for the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: There are new developments to report tonight in the search for missing 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart. On the story for us tonight is Jeanne Meserve in Salt Lake City. Jeanne, what's the latest?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Connie, a short time ago, I returned from the trailer park where Richard Ricci lived. I talked to his next-door neighbor and father-in-law, David Morse, about the FBI investigation of his home?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Did the FBI take anything out of your house?

DAVID MORSE, RICCI'S FATHER-IN-LAW: I give them a machete blade that I used for trimming these tree limbs off and a golf hat I had that matched the description that's been hanging in my kitchen and that's all. That's all they took from here.

MESERVE: Did Richard ever use either of those items?

MORSE: No. No. No.

MESERVE: You're sure he wasn't using either one of them the night of the abduction?

MORSE: Positive, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: Morse says the hat was tan, the same color and style then as the one described by Mary Catherine Smart. She was the only witness to her sister's abduction. Police have nothing to say about the hat, but law enforcement sources confirm they did take the machete, though they are not sure at this point what relevance it has to their investigation -- Connie. CHUNG: Jeanne, have you learned anything more about Ricci's Jeep?

MESERVE: We have. You may recall that earlier this week, police asked the public for help. They wanted to know if they had seen Ricci in any one of three vehicles for the dates between May 31 and June 8.

Today, law enforcement sources tell us that Ricci's white Jeep was not in his driveway during those dates. And yet, by studying shop records, they've been able to determine that 1,000 miles were put on the odometer. Those same sources tell me that when the car returned on June 8, Ricci was seen hurriedly removing some items from the truck, including seat covers.

Now I asked David Morse about that today. He says the Jeep went into the shop about May 25. As far as he knows, Ricci never brought it back to the neighborhood, and he says the car does not have any seat covers -- Connie.

CHUNG: Jeanne, have the authorities told you privately whether or not Mr. Ricci is becoming increasingly a primary suspect?

MESERVE: They do not use the word suspect to describe Mr. Ricci. They say he is a very interesting and promising lead. Clearly, they're spending a lot of time and attention trying to determine whether there is a nexus between him and Elizabeth and the abduction -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Jeanne Meserve.

When we come back, the man who chucked it all for a life in the wild.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up, he ran away from home 17 years ago and never came back, living in the forest without the barest essentials of modern life. Now he's teaching the mountain ways to a new generation. A first-person look at the life of a modern day mountain man when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Think about your life for a moment. Are you better off with your remote-controlled high-definition text messaging, broadband, digital, hands-free, wireless, online DVD burning laptop PC/TV/CD than you would be without them? Well, before you say yes, get ready to meet a man who chooses to live his life with no heat, no lights, no car, not one single luxury. He is Eustace Conway, a modern day mountain man who lives as though it were 1802, not 2002. We asked Bruce Burkhardt to track him down.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRUCE BURKHARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The American frontier, officially declared dead back in the 1890s. Not everyone got the announcement.

As far as I know, I'm the last person that's quite like me that has all of those American frontier ethics.

BURKHARDT: Eustace Conway is the real deal.

EUSTACE CONWAY, MOUNTAIN MAN: That's probably a snake. There it is. OK, see him? Look right here.

BURKHARDT: There is very little that slips by Eustace out here in his natural surroundings: the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina. His senses have been sharply honed these past 25 years, ever since he left his dysfunctional suburban family as a 17-year-old in 1977 and move into a teepee.

CONWAY: This past summer, I found these buffalo toes and a buffalo skeleton out west. I brought them home and made my doorbell with them. A lot of times, Indian people would use the feet or the toes to make jingles.

BURKHARDT: His story has been chronicled by local Carolina television, how he chose to live like a Native American would have lived several hundred years ago, killing animals for food and clothing, no running water, no matches for fire, no modern conveniences at all, and no wife, though there have been many candidates.

CONWAY: The things of nature make sense to me. So I was like attracted to nature, and perhaps repelled from people. So you could make some of those spicewood sticks and even tie like a little bundle of them with a string, throw it in the pot, boil it for a few hours with something like groundhog to sort of sweeten the taste of the meat.

BURKHARDT: For Eustace, it's not some masochistic exercise in hardship. It's freedom. It's kinship with what he calls the foundational things.

CONWAY: It all comes back down to a belief system, is what you believe is important and believe that you can do something.

BURKHARDT (on camera): Man and teepee, what a great story. It's better than man bites dog. But Eustace Conway has evolved. And what was necessary then isn't now. It's no longer man and teepee, it's man in cabin.

CONWAY: That after 17 years in a teepee, I had accomplished part of what I wanted to accomplish, is to know and understand a teepee. People come up here having read an article that I can rub two sticks together and they want to see. It's like, show me. It's like, just strike a match, man.

BURKHARDT (voice-over): All those years in the teepee, Eustace had a dream. This is the dream. Cherrill Island Preserve (ph). he calls it, a thousand-acre wildlife education center. Land he acquired in bits and pieces over the years, and has developed into a working pioneer era farm.

CONWAY: I'm going to clean it out there a little bit. BURKHARDT: It's what he sees as his mission, his calling, to show the world we don't need all our worldly possessions, just a little common sense.

(on camera): (UNINTELLIGIBLE) How do you know how much to feed them?

CONWAY: I'm going to feed them until they quit eating.

(LAUGHTER)

BURKHARDT: Isn't that a dumb city boy question?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Dumb city boy question. Eustace Conway is the subject of the book "The Last American Man," and he joins me now in our world of wireless mics and flat screen TVs. What the heck are you doing here? You don't even have a TV, do you?

CONWAY: No, no, I haven't watched TV in, I guess, about 23 years.

CHUNG: Really? Oh, my gosh.

CONWAY: So I can't say I've never seen you. Never heard of you.

CHUNG: That's fine.

CONWAY: I guess shows come and go, and I don't know they exist. It suits me just fine.

CHUNG: I know it does. When you were a kid, though, you used to watch TV.

CONWAY: Yes, I watched...

CHUNG: "Leave it to Beaver."

CONWAY: Yes, "Leave it to Beaver" and "Gilligan's Island."

CHUNG: Well, there you go. All right. So tell me, Eustace, do you have electricity in your home?

CONWAY: No, no, it's oil lamps and natural.

CHUNG: No TV. What else do you not have that I have in my home and everybody else does?

CONWAY: I don't know what you have, but one thing do I have is a lot of beautiful sounds, the birds and that. I don't have refrigerators that go zzz, a lot of those modern inconveniences -- I mean conveniences, they make a lot of noise and actually deter some of the quality of the beautiful sounds around me in the forest, so I choose not to have them, and don't have any of that stuff.

CHUNG: All right. We're going to find out more about you in just a minute, OK?

CONWAY: Cool.

CHUNG: We're going to take a commercial break. The time -- we're going to tell you about the time that Eustace went for two weeks without a single morsel of food. Is that true?

CONWAY: The porcupine story.

CHUNG: Yes! The porcupine story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: We are now back with Eustace Conway, the so-called last American man. He's the subject of a book by Elizabeth Gilbert. He has spent most of his life without most of the amenities that we all take for granted. So do you have store-bought food in your cabin?

CONWAY: Some, but that's not really what I rely on. I mostly can my own food and eat fresh food and hunt food.

CHUNG: You hunt food?

CONWAY: Yes.

CHUNG: Do you kill animals?

CONWAY: Yes. That's the way I get my meat.

CHUNG: Uh-oh.

CONWAY: I raise a few chickens, too, but I mostly just eat the roosters, but mostly I eat deer and turkey and squirrel.

CHUNG: Do you have a gun?

CONWAY: I do. Yes, I have several guns. I grew up hunting with a bow and arrow. Once I got a gun, I found out that works a lot better.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: I want to you tell me the porcupine story.

CONWAY: OK, that happened back on the Appalachian Trail, one of the many adventures I've taken in my life to sort of learn more about natural living. I took off and hiked that trail with my friend Frank Chambliss (ph). We started way up north in Maine, and it was really cold and windy and wintry.

We started the first day of May. We climbed Mt. Katahdin, which is way early that time of the year. We didn't have much preparation. We just sort of spur of the moment thought to do the trail, so we didn't have enough food, and we were going real hungry. After a couple of weeks of hardly having anything to eat, I found this porcupine, and it was walking along on the trail, and I recognized that was food, and I was really starving, so I ran and jumped right over it, and sort of got around front of it, yelled at it, and it put all its quills up.

I looked around while it was paused and grabbed a stick, and it had started running up a tree. I waited until it got just about chest level and I just smashed the skull up against the tree.

I was really glad that I had something to eat, so I skinned it out and I started a fire right there in the middle of the trail, and I started cooking it, and I was sitting there watching it. I was so hungry and impatient. I thought, "Well, I bet raw porcupine ain't that bad," and I ate a leg, and I ate two legs before the rest of it was cooked.

CHUNG: No!

CONWAY: Oh, yes.

CHUNG: What did it taste like?

CONWAY: Life. It was a chance to live.

CHUNG: Yes, I know, but what did it taste like?

CONWAY: It sounds corny, but it really tasted like piney, like porcupine -- it actually had a pine flavor taste.

CHUNG: Pine taste to it. Did the fully cooked part taste better?

CONWAY: It was better, yup.

CHUNG: So what did do you with those pines?

CONWAY: What you do when you skin a porcupine, you have to make sure you don't ruffle it.

CHUNG: Right. Because it'll go and get you, right?

CONWAY: As long as you go with the grain of the air, it doesn't stick you.

CHUNG: How did you know that?

CONWAY: I figured it out. I'd never skinned a porcupine. Where I lived, down in the mountains of North Carolina, at Turtle Island Preserve, we don't have porcupines. But I figured it out real fast.

CHUNG: Yes. Did you do anything with those -- are they called pines?

CONWAY: They're quills.

CHUNG: Quills, sorry.

CONWAY: I actually skinned -- saved the skin and saved the tail, and I took the tail and I pulled all the quills out, and they have really stiff hair on the tail, and I made a hair brush out of it to use to brush my hair.

CHUNG: Well, imagine that. Let's backtrack. Why did you -- I mean, you were living in a regular, normal suburban life, right?

CONWAY: Fairly normal. We had electricity, we had a hot bathtub and that.

CHUNG: Right. And at what age you decided to go off and live in a teepee?

CONWAY: When I was 17 I moved out into the forest full time. About 23 years ago.

CHUNG: Why?

CONWAY: When I moved out I didn't really think, "Well, I'm going to live for the next 23 years in a teepee." I thought, "Well, the woods is a nice place to go." There's a lot of education, there's something to learn. I wanted to be close to nature and see what it would teach me. I went camping and it was nice. I stayed, and stayed a little longer.

CHUNG: Didn't you like things at home? Didn't you like the comforts of home? And you have parents, right?

CONWAY: Yup.

CHUNG: You have siblings.

CONWAY: Yup. The natural environment is just totally what I was motivated towards. I wanted to see what was going on in the forest and how to live. I'd read about, like, Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone and all the Native American forefathers of this country, and I wanted to see how you could actually live in the forest like that.

CHUNG: What did your parents think of the fact that you were out there in nowhere, you know?

What did your parents think of the fact that you were out there in nowhere?

When I said I had a somewhat normal childhood, you know, we had a suburban home and a car and all that but I would go into the forest all the time, ever since I was a little child. Like, Elizabeth (ph) brings that out in her book, how my mom actually let me go out when I was four years old. I'd go out most of the day, just roaming in the forest, and learned how to move through the forest, and all the poisonous plants and poisonous snakes, and what to eat and what not to eat.

CHUNG: But you know what, I have to tell you, if I were your mother, you know, I would say, what the heck are you doing? Aren't you going to get a job? CONWAY: Oh, but she knew that was best for me, I think. She knew that was where my heart was. And I figured that if I was enjoying it and felt good about it, that would be all right.

My dad really has looked it and said, that's kind of strange. Like, why are you moving into the forest? So he didn't quite get it, but my mom allowed it. And over the years I think they both recognized that it's where I should be.

CHUNG: In the book it's described that you didn't have a great relationship with your dad.

CONWAY: Right. In fact, Liz (ph) goes into looking at the history of American people, men and forefathers of our country that are heroes today, and recognize that a lot of those early people were, like, going to the frontier not necessarily to go to a place they wanted to go to, but running away from a father, troubled relationship.

It was very interesting, what she brings out. It's quite a historic perspective.

CHUNG: And yours was that way, was it was not?

CONWAY: Very similar, yes.

CHUNG: Yes. Troubled.

CONWAY: But at the same time I was very much attracted to the wild land. And that, because I wanted to see what it had to offer me. And it's been a whole lot that it has to offer me.

CHUNG: So tell me, when you were living in the teepee, did you ever get sick?

CONWAY: Hardly ever, really. You know, like one of the first years I lived in a teepee somebody saw me drinking a soda pop. And they said, you know, that's not really good for your health. Really? I found out about it, and I haven't had a soda pop for 23 years. You know, it just -- there's no need to drink stuff like that, that's not good for you.

So I drink mostly spring water, eat natural food. And all that is very healthy for you. And so I hardly ever get sick.

Sometimes I get hurt. Like, one time I smashed my face really bad right here. I was riding a horse, and I rode it into a tree.

CHUNG: How did you take...

CONWAY: I sewed it up myself, yes.

CHUNG: No!

CONWAY: Yes, quite a few times I've sewed myself up. And I sewed up friends, too. I got by -- it was at night, actually. I had to put candles by the mirror. And it was -- my lip was cut in half here, here, and this lip was cut in half...

CHUNG: Did you use a needle?

CONWAY: Yes, just a needle and thread, and just pull it back together. I didn't really know if I could do it, because there was so much blood, and it was swollen by then real bad. But I sewed...

CHUNG: Did you sterilize the needle?

CONWAY: Yes, I put it down in some white lightning, moonshine.

But like that cut right there, I sewed that one up myself. And I did a bad one right up here one time; I couldn't sew it up. I made my little brother Jetson (ph) sew it up.

But, you know, that's one thing about that natural living: You can learn that you can do all kinds of things that the modern world says, oh, you can't do that.

CHUNG: Well, tell me -- I know you do have a philosophy. You like to teach children at your Turtle Island how to live, right?

CONWAY: That's right. Not just children, but adults. We have programs open to anybody.

CHUNG: And how would you explain your philosophy of life?

CONWAY: Well, there's this big question, big answer. But basically I like to get people in touch with nature. I think that nature has a lot to offer us. And if you get in touch with the roots of where your food comes from and understand what comes into your life and where your waste goes, you have more of a kinship with the natural world, and you recognize it, and value that we need to be taking care of the environment that supports our life, and not polluting so much.

CHUNG: Eustace, you're going to have to come back and talk to me a little more. You know...

CONWAY: Well, you have to come down to my place. It's a lot nicer down there.

CONWAY: OK. Thank you so much for being with us, Eustace Conway.

I'll be back with a few alarming words in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: If you were watching our program last night, you heard the fire alarm go off a few times while I was interviewing our guests. I thought it was pretty darn funny, even though I'm sure I should have taken it seriously. Since it turned out to be a false alarm, we started wondering, what might have caused it? Was it a dirty trick from our competitors? That couldn't be true, could it? Or maybe our program was simply too hot -- remember, the women of Enron who had posed for "Playboy" were our guests last night, and they were all in the studio.

No. The truth was much more mundane. A little kid had done it to -- pulled the fire alarm as a childish prank. We tried to find him and get him to come on tonight, but for some reason we didn't get him. I wasn't going to be mean. Really.

Well, thanks for joining us tonight. Tomorrow night the story of Korey Stringer. It was just about one year ago when the Minnesota Vikings football player died on the practice field. His widow now wants to hold the team responsible legally. She'll join me here along with Korey Stringer's mother.

And join LARRY KING LIVE next with the latest developments in the Elizabeth Smart case. Larry will talk to the missing girl's uncle.

I'm Connie Chung. For all of us at CNN, good night.

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