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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
L.A. Police Investigate Videotaped Beating of Teen; Victims of Corporate Greed Speak Out
Aired July 09, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight, was it police brutality? We'll talk to the mayor and the sheriff's department.
ANNOUNCER: Resisting arrest or excessive force? You've seen the video. You've heard the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sheriff grabbed him by the throat and held him while the Inglewood Police Department, four officers, took turns beating him in the face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But is there more to it?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my city, this type of conduct will not...
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Who's telling the truth?
Tonight, victims of corporate greed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White collar crimes need to be taken just as seriously as other crimes, like robbery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The real people who lost real money. They worked for WorldCom and Enron. And now they face the fallout of corporate fraud.
A Hollywood survivor, she was bigger than life as "Star Wars" Princess Leia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "STAR WARS")
CARRIE FISHER, ACTRESS: Somebody has to save us, kid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But behind the screen, battled addiction and fought manic depression.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: You have said you are mentally ill.
FISHER: I have?
CHUNG: Yes.
FISHER: That must be so difficult for me sometimes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Now Carrie Fisher is back on screen. Tonight, her comeback and her newfound peace.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening.
Tonight, the FBI, Los Angeles County, the city of Inglewood and the county sheriff are all investigating the incident. Videotapes this weekend in which a developmentally disabled teen was slammed against a police car and punched in the face. The mayor has called for the officer to be fired. We'll talk to the mayor in just a moment. And we will hear from the sheriff's department too.
But first, on the story for us tonight is CNN's Thelma Gutierrez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: No justice, no peace! No justice, no peace!
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At city hall in Inglewood, California...
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: No justice, no peace!
GUTIERREZ: ... dozens of protesters stood together. They held signs and screamed for justice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are outraged! We are mad and we are outraged at the behavior of this department!
GUTIERREZ: Their anger, the result of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, you guys, do not resist them. GUTIERREZ: A videotape showing 16-year-old Donovan Chavis, a special education student in handcuffs, being slammed on a car and hit on the face by an Inglewood police officer identified as Jeremy Morse, a three-year veteran of the force.
ROOSEVELT DORN, MAYOR, INGLEWOOD: I have had an opportunity to review the tape. I have studied it over and over. There isn't any question in my mind what occurred.
GUTIERREZ: Inglewood City Mayor Roosevelt Dorn told protesters the officer, now on paid administrative leave, committed a crime and should be fired regardless of how the altercation began.
DORN: As far as I am concerned, there is nothing that could have occurred prior to the videotape being turned on that would justify...
(APPLAUSE)
... that would justify the -- that would justify the conduct that I observed. I will be urging, recommending that this officer be suspended without pay.
GUTIERREZ: Four Inglewood police officers and two Los Angeles County sheriff's dep...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): Now, I should mention that the officer, officer Jeremy Morse, is on paid administrative leave. As you had heard, the mayor has called for the officer to be fired.
Now, I should also mention that Donovan and his father say that the beating began long before the videotape was actually shot. Now, there was a surveillance video camera at the gas station where all of this took place, and the sheriff's deputies actually have custody of the videotape shot from that camera. And they have not yet told us what is on that tape, but they say that it is germane to the investigation -- Connie.
CHUNG: Thelma, have police been able to question other witnesses at the gas station?
GUTIERREZ: Well, that is a good question. It is clear from the tape that there were many other witnesses. There were witnesses at the gas station who were actually watching this incident occur. There were witnesses at the hotel. And you can actually hear their voices on that videotape.
Police aren't saying to us who they've talked to, how many witnesses they have. They've not released any details about the investigation. But, again, it's clear from all those people on that tape, all of the people that we could hear, the people that we could see, that there were witnesses. We just don't know whether or not they've talked to police at this point.
CHUNG: Thelma, I know there is so much concern about racial tension. What is the racial makeup in Inglewood?
GUTIERREZ: Well, according to the 2000 Census, the racial makeup here in the city of Inglewood, 47 percent African-American, 19 percent white, nine percent Native American, and one percent Asian. Again, though, Connie, you know, just from talking to some of the people out here today, they say that they're just upset at what they saw at the video, not much having to do with race in terms of a white person or Asian person, getting upset at the fact that, you know, it was a black teenager and white officer, but that it was just wrong, period.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you, Thelma Gutierrez in Los Angeles.
Among the several agencies investigating this incident are the city of Inglewood itself and the L.A. County Sheriff's Department. We are joined now by Inglewood Mayor Roosevelt Dorn and a spokesman from the sheriff's office, Lieutenant Carl Deeley. Thank you both for being with us tonight.
LT. CARL DEELEY, L.A. COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: Good evening.
CHUNG: Good evening. Lieutenant Deeley, can you tell me, have you -- your department, has your department been able to question the officers who were there and gotten their version of what happened?
DEELEY: That is going to be part of the investigation is interviews. They were interviewed that night. There will be further interviews that go on throughout the investigation.
CHUNG: Well, can you tell me what...
DEELEY: And, of course, we are trying to track down all the witnesses.
CHUNG: What do they tell you is the truth? What do you know to be the truth?
DEELEY: Well, unfortunately, I'd love to be able to give you that information, but state law has really strict guidelines regarding personnel investigations involving police officers. Until the investigation is completed, we will be kept from giving out too much information until the investigation is actually completed.
CHUNG: All right. Lieutenant Deeley, I'll get back to you in just a moment. Don't go away.
Mayor Dorn, can you hear me? Mayor Dorn, can you hear me?
DORN: Yes, I can.
CHUNG: OK.
DORN: Yes, I can.
CHUNG: Have you been able to determine what happened before the videotape started rolling? DORN: No. I have not been able to determine that. I have asked for witnesses that may have been present to come forward with information. Clearly, police officers have their version. Clearly, the father and son have their version.
What I am concerned about is those independent witnesses that I know that were there that observed what happened before the camera was turned on. But, you see, my position is clear on this. I don't care what happened prior to the videotape being turned on. There is nothing that could have happened that this young man could have done that would justify the conduct of the officer in regard to this young man. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CHUNG: You're talking about officer Jeremy Morse? You're talking about that specific officer?
DORN: Yes. You don't become -- yes, that's exactly who I'm referring to. You don't become angry and take a teenager and slam his head into a car, and then punch this youngster, when he really appeared to be almost out when he picked him up. So there is no justification for that.
CHUNG: As far as you're concerned, Mayor Dorn, this officer should be fired? You stand by your statement?
DORN: Based upon the information that I observed on the videotape, there isn't any question as to the fact that this officer committed crimes. And as a police officer, if you commit crimes, you should be removed from the force.
CHUNG: Mr. Mayor, there is a video -- the videotape that all of us have seen, and we are going to show our viewers a tighter, closer shot of officer Jeremy Morse. He does have a laceration on his face. Do you have any idea and would it make any difference to you if you knew how he got that laceration?
DORN: It would not make any difference if the minor hit him in the face, if the minor cut him in the face. It would make no difference because the minor, at the time that the video was picked up, the minor is subdued. He's handcuffed. He is not a threat to anyone. When he picked him up, he should have taken him to the car, not slam his head into the hood of that car.
CHUNG: Have you been able to determine what is on the surveillance tape at the gas station and mini-mart?
DORN: No, I have not. As I've indicated, the investigation is ongoing. The only thing that I am keyed in on now is the videotape.
CHUNG: All right.
DORN: Let's face it. What type of scenario can you think of that would justify an officer taking a teenager that has been subdued and is in handcuffs, and is not causing a threat to anyone, but to then take that teenager and slam that teenager's head into the hood of a car? CHUNG: Mayor Dorn...
DORN: Can you think of any justification for it?
CHUNG: Mayor Dorn, I'm going to turn to...
DORN: Yes.
CHUNG: ... Lt. Deeley. I know it is some part of a rhetorical question, but I won't answer it. Let me turn to Lt. Deeley, but don't go away, Mr. Mayor. Have you, Lt. Deeley, been able to determine what is on the surveillance tape that was in the gas station at the mini- mart?
DEELEY: We have obtained the surveillance tape from the mini- mart, and because of the way the tape is set up, it has multiple pictures at the same time. It has been sent to our crime lab to be able to make it a little clearer, enhance the picture. And they're working with the photographs from that surveillance tape, and hopefully it will add some information, especially the timeline before the videotape that everyone has seen across the media, what happened up before that time, because there has been quite a few charges leveled that will probably be cleared up by that part of the videotape.
CHUNG: Is there a clear picture of the incident from the surveillance tape?
DEELEY: We hope there will be. Again, they're going to have to enhance it a little bit and nail it down from -- like I said, I believe there is ten pictures going on at the same time. They will have to narrow it down to the area in question. It won't be a full view with everything that went on, but hopefully it will provide some information we don't have already.
CHUNG: Lt. Deeley, have your officers -- the two who were from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, have they described how Officer Morse was injured?
DEELEY: Well, what happened originally was the juvenile attacked our deputy, which started the scuffle in the first place. When the deputy was trying to place him in the back seat of the radio car, because he would not stop interfering with the traffic stop involving his father, when the deputy walked him back to the back seat of his radio car, he had seemed to have calmed down a little bit. The deputy let go of him to put him in the back seat, and the young man lunged at the deputy, who then had to grab him, and they struggled with each other, went to the ground, and that is when the Inglewood officers came to his aid, to help him to handcuff the 16-year-old.
CHUNG: I see. So clearly...
DEELEY: And then, during this...
CHUNG: Go ahead. DEELEY: I'm sorry. And then sometime during that scuffle, the officer got several wounds, one to his face, his head, his chest, and I believe on his arm.
CHUNG: You're talking about Officer -- the Inglewood officer, Mr. Morse, are you not? You're not talking about your sheriff's deputy?
DEELEY: No. That was Officer Morse. Our deputy ended up injuring his back, and he also ended up having a sprained wrist.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Mayor Dorn, Lt. Deeley, we appreciate your being with us.
While there is already talk about what charges can or should be filed, in reality, the investigations have just begun, and the facts of the case remain less than clear.
Joining us now to walk us through the process is CNN Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin -- Jeffrey, thank you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hey, Connie.
CHUNG: What are we dealing with here? Because I'm wondering -- certainly, with the Rodney King incident, you have a videotape. It shows, you know, some very specific acts. But, does that matter?
TOOBIN: It certainly matters a great deal, and it's obviously an extremely important piece of evidence. But, you know, much as we all have to cringe as we see that awful sight of the kid being slammed into the car, that is really only the beginning of the investigation. It's not the end, and these cases tend to get more complicated over time.
Remember, you have the question of what happened first. You also have several officers involved. It's far from clear how many of them are involved in any abusive conduct, if any. So there are a lot of unanswered questions. It's important to take it step-by-step. This clearly is being investigated, but this case is by no means over.
CHUNG: Well, is it a matter of he says, and then they say?
TOOBIN: What often turns out to be the case when you have a videotape is that defense attorneys, if, say, Officer Morse is charged, they take the video almost frame-by-frame and try to explain the officer's action. This is what happened in the Rodney King case. Remember...
CHUNG: Yes, I remember.
TOOBIN: ... when that case broke, and the video came out, everyone said, well, obviously, these cops are all guilty. Now, the trial was moved from Los Angeles to a mostly white area in Simi Valley, and ultimately the officers were acquitted. But the way the officers were acquitted was they -- instead of from running from the tape, they sort of embraced the tape, and they said, OK, let's look at this second by second, and see the decisions that each officer made, in the context of what Rodney King himself was doing. That is how these cases are generally defended. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
But just a quick look at the videotape is no way to answer -- that you know, whether he's guilty -- for all time.
CHUNG: And just to review in the Rodney King case, they were acquitted in the criminal trial?
TOOBIN: They were acquitted in the state criminal trial. What happened -- and then, there were, of course, there were the terrible riots. Then the federal government tried them for violating Rodney King's federal civil rights. That was also a criminal case, but a federal case, and then they were convicted.
CHUNG: And finally, very quickly, what about the prosecution? What onus sits on the prosecution when it presents its case?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, jurors, especially in white areas, like white cops. They view them as sympathetic, and they are -- they are going to have to prove that the video is exactly what is says, abuse of a cop -- of a citizen.
CHUNG: Of a young man, a teenager.
Thank you, Jeffrey Toobin. Appreciate it.
TOOBIN: OK, Connie.
CHUNG: When we return, the crackdown on corporate greed. Who better to tell us what to do to protect our money than Lou Dobbs.
ANNOUNCER: Next: voices of anger...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the real reform doesn't happen, I'll never be able to believe in a large corporation again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... and frustration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We worked hard for a big company that said it was an innovative leader, and promised tremendous growth. Instead, we lost everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: They lost their money, and now, want corporate America to pay. CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: President Bush landed on Wall Street today, but he didn't land as hard as some people had hoped he would. Pushed by a domino chain of executive wrongdoing, the president outlined his response. Specifically, the president proposed doubling maximum sentences from five years to 10 years in prison for those convicted of financial fraud. And, he said, he will push for an additional $100 million for manpower and technology to help the Securities and Exchange Commission enforce the law.
The speech was not enough to boost Wall Street, as major indexes were down today, and no one was more on the story today than our own Lou Dobbs, anchor and managing editor of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE."
Lou, thank you for coming.
LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Good to be with you, Connie.
CHUNG: And you're even on vacation and you came back for us.
DOBBS: Just for you.
CHUNG: Now, Lou, did the president say enough?
DOBBS: The president, according to those people we talked with on Wall Street today, needed to say more, needed to say it more forcefully. There was some disappointment, and that may be surprising to people, that Wall Street wanted to hear more, but the integrity of these markets is so important to Wall Street itself, to corporate America. They understand clearly that investor confidence has got to be restored, and soon.
CHUNG: All right. We have a little excerpt from the president's speech. Let's go to that.
DOBBS: Great.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ...business pages of American newspapers should not read like a scandal sheet.
My administration will do everything in our power to end the days of cooking the books, shading the truth, and breaking our laws. Today, by executive order, I create a new corporate fraud task force.
Government cannot remove risk from investment, I know that, or chance from the market. But government can do more to promote transparency and assure that risks are honest. And government can assure that those who breach the trust of the American people are punished.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: What should he have included, which he left out, failed to mention? DOBBS: A number of people want to see the president, this government, say that we are going to expense stock options to get that cleared up, and certainly off the table of issues that are troubling corporate America.
He should have said, in the minds of most people, that it's a time now for zero tolerance. He needs to call these people crooks because that's what they are.
CHUNG: But he would not?
DOBBS: He did not, and his administration and other people are not. The business organizations who are supporting this president, who have supported Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill, they have an opportunity for forceful leadership here.
Too few are taking the opportunity.
CHUNG: Why do you suppose he was not tougher?
DOBBS: I suspect that, in part -- well, obviously, the answer, at first, is that I don't know, but I suspect, in part, it's because they are trying to find their way through this. We've watched an incredible migration.
In January, this administration wanted a zero growth budget for the SEC. Then in March, they made a request for more money, and now there is a certain urgency. To the credit of the administration and to the Republicans and the House, particularly Chairman Oxley and the Financial Services Committee, they have moved forward with legislation. Now we'll see what happens with Senator Paul Sarbane's legislation in the Senate.
CHUNG: You've touched on this a bit, but he was actually speaking -- the president was speaking to two audiences...
DOBBS: Absolutely.
CHUNG: He was speaking to investors, he was speaking to executives. You've talked to them out there, the -- certainly the executives and some investors.
DOBBS: Right.
CHUNG: What are they saying?
DOBBS: Investors are -- and this is based on my audience and the way they're reacting to all of this -- they want to see very serious jail time for these criminals. And they want action. And they have watched $6 trillion disappear from this market over about a two-year period. Their sense of humor is about at an end with all of this.
In terms of corporate America, even corporate America, which frankly I thought would want to hear less from the president on reform, today saying they wanted to hear more. Henry Paulson, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, tonight told me that he thought the president gave a good speech and set the tone for the bully pulpit, but acknowledged that still much needs to be done.
CHUNG: All right. The president talked about ethics, integrity, but you can't control that. You can't teach it. You can't punish it.
DOBBS: Well, you can punish the lack of it, certainly, and that is why the president is at least beginning to step forward, as is Harvey Pitt, the chairman of the SEC and the Justice Department.
But the fact is we've got a cultural problem here. It extends from Wall Street, where too many people were taking shortcuts and committing outright fraud. It's occurring in corporate America, again, outright fraud and criminal behavior. The Wall Street analysts working both sides of the street and then finding new angles to work.
It's a cultural issue that has got to be rectified now. The president can't do it by himself, nor can Congress, but they certainly can set a tone in leadership.
CHUNG: Very tough to enforce. Thank you, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good to be with you.
CHUNG: You need to go back on vacation.
DOBBS: My pleasure.
CHUNG: In a moment, those hard hit by this mess, the inside stories from angry employees of WorldCom and Enron. Keep it locked on CNN.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up, corporate leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I respectfully decline to answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Not talking.
SCOTT SULLIVAN, FORMER CFO, WORLDCOM: I respectfully will not answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And taking the fifth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN LAY, FORMER CEO, ENRON: Based on my fifth amendment constitutional rights...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But the victims of corporate greed are talking to Connie. We will return in a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
CHUNG: ... who was looking forward to retirement until he was laid off in December and lost about $25,000 in his 401(k). Rod Jordan and Cara, thank you so much for being with us.
ROD JORDAN, LAID OFF FROM ENRON: You're welcome, Connie. Glad to be here.
CARA ALCANTAR, LAID OFF FROM WORLDCOM: Thank you.
CHUNG: Cara, you were at a news conference today held by Senator Daschle and Congressman Gephardt. We're going to show our viewers just an excerpt and then we'll come back to you.
ALCANTAR: OK.
(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALCANTAR: ... I was laid off, when I felt like I did something wrong, like I was being held responsible for WorldCom coming apart. Stage two is depression. I feel like what's the point of getting another job. Look what happened to this one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Cara, tell me about your depression.
ALCANTAR: Well, it's a depression, as far as looking in the papers and looking at other corporations. What happened to the WorldCom employees who have been let go was not our fault, but it feels like it was. And...
CHUNG: I know. I was very surprised that you took it so personally, that you thought it was your fault.
ALCANTAR: Right. Well, I'm trying to understand that it's not my fault, it's not -- it's not our fault. But we are the ones being punished for it. We are the ones that have lost our jobs.
CHUNG: Tell me, Cara, are you angry? Are you bitter?
ALCANTAR: I'm not -- I wouldn't say that I'm bitter, Connie. I am angry. I'm angry because this could have been prevented. That is probably what bothers me the most. It may have been prevented. But now, I just -- moving forward, I would just like to see protection for other employees at other companies.
CHUNG: Cara, the sum total of what you lost from your 401(k) and the potential loss that you had, when everything was worth more, what is that number for you? ALCANTAR: The number for me is not that high. I was with WorldCom for four years. So, two of those years, fully vested was both mine as well as what WorldCom put into it was roughly about $4,000 to $5,000 as far as money that we put in. Lost, lost, I'm not sure. It just went up and down, the stock did.
CHUNG: That's plenty, Cara. It really is.
ALCANTAR: Yes.
CHUNG: Rod, I am going to ask you the same question, Cara, in just a moment. But, first, Rod Jordan, what did you think of the president's speech? Did he give you some faith and some hope?
JORDAN: Yes, it gave me some hope. I had hoped for more a bit. I would like to have had him address the 401(k) issue more, the retirement losses more as well as other reforms that he didn't talk about. But I think it's a starting point. I think that he's set the bully puppet speech now, and it's up to the Senate and the Congress to carry it forward and pass some meaningful legislation.
CHUNG: Tell me, for you, was is the loss of economics that was so profound for you or was it loss of faith and trust that really hurt you deep inside?
JORDAN: It was probably more faith and trust. I didn't lose as much, not being there as long as some of the employees. And that is why in early January, I started the Severed Enron Employees Coalition. We are 850 members plus now and still growing. And it's helping the other employees and the retired people and present Enron employees that are still there that makes us go on.
CHUNG: Now, you are about to retire when you were told one day just to pack your bags.
JORDAN: Right. I was within a couple of years of retirement. And they gave us an hour to get out on December 3.
CHUNG: That is unbelievable. I'm sure many people are saying to themselves, well, I would be bitter if I were you. I'd be angry. What kind of company was it to work for at the time? What were you finding as an experienced professional?
JORDAN: Well, it was a company that had had a different culture than I had ever worked for before. It was very dynamic, very entrepreneurial, very young. They hired a lot of fresh, young talent. You know, the really up and coming Enron executive was probably three, four, five years out of Harvard with an MBA.
CHUNG: And you knew more than any of them did put together?
JORDAN: Yes. Well, of course.
CHUNG: Of course.
Cara, the same question that I had had asked Rod Jordan, what did you think of the president's speech? Were you encouraged or did you think it just wasn't enough?
ALCANTAR: Where I stand with what the president has been saying is I'm not sure I understand what he's saying. What I'd like to see happen and what I hope that he'd like to see happen is new laws that prevent corporations from doing bad things to their employees. Whether or not that is what he's doing, I'm not sure by what he says, what he's enforcing. And the loopholes that are going to be behind it, possible loopholes.
CHUNG: I think you're not alone. I think there are millions of us who are wondering exactly what it means. Now, do you think you are going to go back to work and that you'll work for a large company again?
ALCANTAR: No, I don't think that I'm going to work for a large company any time in the future. There have been some offers at smaller companies that I'm looking into. So that, right now, sounds like a better plan than jumping right into a big corporation again.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Rod Jordan and Carol -- I mean, Cara -- I'm sorry -- Alcantar.
When we come back, she was married to singer Paul Simon. She is the daughter of Eddie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds. And even she would say still crazy after all these years. We will be back in just a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Still to come, her biggest role was as Princess Leia in the original "Star Wars."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "STAR WARS")
FISHER: Into the garbage chute, fly boy!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Since then, Carrie Fisher has ridden the highs and lows of Hollywood. She talks to Connie Chung when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: America has always had a love/hate relationship with its captains of industry, but Henry Ross Perot took that to a new level with his 1992 announcement that he was running for president.
Along with his no-nonsense political rhetoric, his biography as a self-made millionaire won him much of his support. As a young man, Perot took just about every job there was, from breaking horses to a stint in the Navy.
Then, 40 years ago, on his 32nd birthday, Perot started Electronic Data Systems. The 5'6" entrepreneur soon became known as the billionaire Boy Scout. He even organized a commando raid to rescue two employees during the Iranian revolution.
After picking up 19 percent of the vote in 1992, he was ready to take on the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY ROSS PEROT, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Everybody out there understands why Bangladesh and Haiti are not like Mexico, so I won't waste your time.
AL GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But tell me. I mean, humor me, if would you.
PEROT: No, I won't. I don't think I can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Perot dipped his toe into politics a few times afterwards, but what is he doing now? The answer when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: What is billionaire and former presidential candidate Ross Perot doing now? The 72-year-old is still working to mobilize Americans behind a cause.
This time, it's volunteering in the cause of national defense, but like so many corporate executives, his name has recently been linked to scandal. Investigators in California are looking into the possibility that Perot's new company, Perot Systems, may have violated antitrust laws and played a part in the state's recent energy crisis. He's expected to testify before the state senate this week.
CHUNG: Stardom is supposed to be fun, but sometimes even wealth and fame are not enough to make things better. As one star found out, sometimes they can even make things worse.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): Manic depression, stardom, drug addiction. To say Carrie Fisher has had her ups and downs is like saying the Earth is round. It all began well enough, born the daughter of celebrity couple Debbie Reynolds and Eddie Fisher.
FISHER: Looks like you managed to cut off our only escape route.
CHUNG: By age 19, this child of Hollywood royalty was playing a princess in one of the most successful films of all time, and roles followed in the next two "Star Wars" sequels.
FISHER: I remained celibate for you.
CHUNG: But by the time Fisher made the 1980s movie "Blues Brothers," she was frequently drunk on the set, evidence of what would become a long-term struggle with alcohol and drugs.
She chronicled her problems in the autobiographical novel "Postcards from the Edge," the start of a rewarding literary career.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My drinking does not interfere with my work.
CHUNG: Fisher wrote the screenplay for the movie version, later taking great pains to point out the erratic mother depicted in the film was not completely based on her own mom.
She followed "Postcards" with "Surrender the Pink" based on her failed marriage to singer Paul Simon, and "Delusions of Grandma," based on her relationship with the father of her daughter.
But it was a literary effort by her father that caused more strife, his recent autobiography, "Been There, Done That."
Carrie Fisher called the book "nasty," and said it made her want to "fumigate her DNA." Genetics may explain what Fisher has come to realize as the root of her personal struggles, severe manic depression. Untreated for many years, Fisher now takes medication for the illness. That has allowed her to take occasional acting jobs, and continue her writing career. One of those writing projects, last year's "These Old Broads."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was perfectly capable of losing Freddie (ph) on my own.
CHUNG: The TV movie co-starred Debbie Reynolds and Elizabeth Taylor, the woman who broke up the Reynolds-Fisher marriage. In one of the many ironies in Carrie Fisher's life, she is now pals with Taylor, and doesn't speak to her father, Eddie.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: And Carrie Fisher's latest appearance is right here, right now. Thanks for being here with us.
FISHER: Thank you for having me.
CHUNG: Over the years, you have been so straightforward, nothing but the truth, honesty, your life is all out there for us to know about.
FISHER: Well, there were some lying years.
CHUNG: Oh, yes? OK.
FISHER: Yes. But I've recovered now.
CHUNG: All right. So you have said, and I think this is, obviously, a fascinating part for you to talk about, because most people keep it to themselves. You have said you are mentally ill.
FISHER: I have?
CHUNG: Yes.
FISHER: That must be so difficult for me sometimes. I know...
CHUNG: Is it curable? FISHER: ... my -- no, it's not curable. They're coming up with an antibiotic for it soon, but -- no, my mother says...
CHUNG: That is a joke.
FISHER: Yes, it is a joke. My -- but it's manageable with medication, and so my mother says, Dear, you're not mentally ill, you're manic depressive. So, mentally ill...
CHUNG: Debbie, Debbie, Debbie.
FISHER: It does sound -- well, it does sound so dramatic, but it can be that way, so...
CHUNG: Is -- Debbie Reynolds, of course. Is manic depressive bipolar?
FISHER: It is.
CHUNG: What is this thing -- it's hypomania? Hypomania?
FISHER: Well, that is a lesser version of it.
CHUNG: And that is what you have?
FISHER: No, no. No, no. I have the -- I have the full shot, I'm proud to say. You know, when I get something, I want to get the whole thing, and I'm volleying for a bipolar pride day, and bipolar bars, which obviously would be open 24 hours.
CHUNG: Of course. Have you ever been to a bipolar restroom?
FISHER: You liar!
CHUNG: No? OK. I haven't.
FISHER: No, but I -- the parades. Don't you think they would be good...
CHUNG: Yes, yes.
FISHER: ...with sort of the depressive floats, with people on mattresses...
CHUNG: Yes. You are...
FISHER: ... staring off into nothing, frantic, maniac.
CHUNG: You are being sick.
FISHER: Well, we just established that I was sick.
CHUNG: Oh, did I say that? OK. We'll continue along these lines.
FISHER: Well, I joke about it. CHUNG: Yes, I know you do.
FISHER: It is a -- if I didn't, then it would simply be something that was true.
CHUNG: But it is.
FISHER: It is. Absolutely.
CHUNG: OK. What I want to know, though, is you take medication?
FISHER: Yes, I do.
CHUNG: I had read six different types?
FISHER: Oh, God, I hope not. But, yes, it's probably that much.
CHUNG: All right. So, are you ever tempted to not take the medication?
FISHER: Oh, absolutely. Well, yes, because -- and it's also -- any, I think, illness of the mind, your mind will always tell you you don't have it. So I will still say this is not possible.
CHUNG: Right.
FISHER: I'm, you know, as sane as -- well, not you, but, you know, some of your friends. So I still will think I don't have it. But also, because the manic side of it is so great, it's fantastic. So I would want that back again. It just -- there is a negative fallout. Also, I -- you know -- so, yes, I would want it back but I would not want to put my daughter through that because it's very chaotic.
CHUNG: Were you ever concerned -- I'll just ask you one more question about this. Do you mind? Is that OK?
FISHER: No.
CHUNG: All right. Were you concerned that you had passed it along to your daughter, because I believe there is a belief that it's genetic?
FISHER: Yes, there is a huge one. Yes. Well, I would have that concern, but she doesn't, you know, show -- my father, who is the one that has it, he has four children. I'm the one that got it. I got it for all of us.
CHUNG: Was he diagnosed? Was Eddie Fisher actually diagnosed with manic depression? But he claims he doesn't.
FISHER: I know. Like that is a bad -- that is the bad thing, not the alcoholism and the 75 marriages and the -- I mean, if you look at sort of the behavior, it's very kind of manic depressive. You cannot diagnose manic depression, though, if someone is not sober because active alcoholism and drug addiction looks like manic depression.
CHUNG: I see. And, actually, you suffered from both too?
FISHER: Yes. Absolutely.
CHUNG: Drugs, pills, snorting heroin, all of that, whole nine yards, LSD, right? OK, we're done with that subject.
FISHER: But it was so fun.
CHUNG: I want to talk about this program that you do on Oxygen. You're doing what I'm doing for a living. You're interviewing people.
FISHER: And I've always said that that is one of the signs that the world is ending when two talk show hosts interview each other.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Right.
FISHER: But I don't consider myself a talk show host particularly.
CHUNG: OK. And I'm not either, so there you go.
FISHER: Well, then the world is going to go on and on forever.
CHUNG: Absolutely.
FISHER: We can relax.
CHUNG: I want to show a little clip of you interviewing Robin Williams.
FISHER: Oh, no.
CHUNG: Yes.
FISHER: OK, but I don't have to look, do I?
CHUNG: Yes, you do. Look at this. Look at it.
FISHER: Oh, no. No, I can't.
CHUNG: Carrie...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FISHER: The weirdest woman in the world, not really, talked about sex.
ROBIN WILLIAMS, COMEDIAN: We will be right back.
FISHER: She's so normal, though.
WILLIAMS: In many ways. FISHER: My mother tells my daughter, the good night story. My daughter told it the other night. She said, you know, we used to have a beach house and a Palm Springs house, but my second husband lost both of them. I don't care about the Palm Springs house, but I miss the beach house. Gary Marshall (ph) has it. This is to my nine-year- old daughter. That is a good night story.
WILLIAMS: You know, most kids get, good night moon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Hey, hey, you know what? When you interview someone, you're supposed to let them talk. No, you're not supposed to talk.
FISHER: You only took a part of it out. He...
CHUNG: I will just blast through the whole thing!
FISHER: How could Robin Williams not talk? Have you ever tried to...
CHUNG: No, no, no. Right.
FISHER: Believe me, you took out the one thing that I said.
CHUNG: Are you sure?
FISHER: I swear. Are we going to go on with me then? This is an intervention, isn't it? I'm in trouble with the talk show, like hierarchy. Oh, no!
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: All right. We will go to another subject. Are you writing another book?
FISHER: I am. I'm almost done, I think.
CHUNG: And what is it, fiction?
FISHER: Who knows with me. Do we ever know? It's faction.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Faction. That means there is a little bit of truth.
FISHER: It means there is probably more than a little bit of truth.
CHUNG: A whole lot of truth?
FISHER: Yes.
CHUNG: Like "Postcards From the Edge?"
FISHER: I'm -- it's sort of the sequel to that one, I'm afraid. CHUNG: Really, about the second stage in your life?
FISHER: Is that the one I'm in?
CHUNG: I think so.
FISHER: Is the -- only the second one? It seems there has been so many.
CHUNG: Well, no, you're kind of in your...
FISHER: I'm exhausted. You can say it. It's fine.
CHUNG: I think almost 45, 44.
FISHER: Almost -- I'm 45. No, it's called "The Best Awful There Is."
CHUNG: That is the name of the book?
FISHER: I think so.
CHUNG: "The Best Awful There Is?"
FISHER: Mm-hmm. There you go.
CHUNG: That would be OK.
FISHER: It depends on your slant.
CHUNG: Of awful?
FISHER: That's right. And that day.
CHUNG: All right. When is it going to be published?
FISHER: In the winter.
CHUNG: OK, great.
FISHER: All right.
CHUNG: I'll be looking for it on the stands.
FISHER: I'll see you at the bipolar parade. I'll be in the frantic manic marching band.
CHUNG: I'll be in the restroom.
FISHER: OK, good. Resting?
CHUNG: Yes, of course.
FISHER: OK.
CHUNG: Carrie Fisher, goodbye, thank you. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: How do you feel about seeing yourself in the mirror? You know, it's interesting to see how people on the air respond to that question. A few minutes ago, remember, as I was introducing a clip from her television program on Oxygen, Carrie Fisher turned away, curled up, suggesting she didn't want to look at herself. Just couldn't do it. Kind of cute, huh?
Well, my husband won't look at his tapes of any programs he's done. He just won't do it. Because we're live, I can't watch myself. Would I like to? It's more important that you are watching.
I'm Connie Chung. Thank you for joining us. Tomorrow, they say their 11-year-old was beaten with a tree branch. They say two pastors did it because he read the wrong Bible passage. We'll talk with the parents.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Phyllis Diller. See you tomorrow. Thank you for joining us. All for all of us at CNN, good night.
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