Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Teen Beaten by Police on Videotape Files Lawsuit; Letter Surfaces in Elizabeth Smart Case
Aired July 10, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
The teen hit by police on videotape is suing. And the pressure is building.
ANNOUNCER: The Inglewood police beating probe widens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SWEENEY, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: We are going to prosecute this case as vigorously and as roughly as they beat our client.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... as the anger mounts.
And a closer look at the officer in the center of the controversy.
A message from a kidnapper?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED SMART, ELIZABETH SMART'S FATHER: I don't know what his mindset is. I don't know what his thinking is, I don't know why he took her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: What is in the letter to sent to Elizabeth Smart's father?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMART: I want to be able to hear from him to tell me what it is he wants. Why?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A break in the case? Or another twist in the mystery?
A Texas pastor accused of beating a child. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORMA ARELLANO, MOTHER OF VICTIM: I don't do this to my children. My husband don't do this to my children. Why should anybody else do this to my kids?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, the severely injured child's parents demand justice.
CHUNG: Good evening. Tonight, the Inglewood, California case continues to grow in its political impact. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft today said police treatment of 16-year-old Donovan Jackson, caught on videotape Saturday, troubled him greatly. Congresswoman Maxine Waters has demanded an investigation. And several agencies, from local to federal, are investigating.
The boy's family has announced a lawsuit, seeking seven figures from the city, the county and individual officers involved. On the story in Los Angeles tonight is CNN's Thelma Gutierrez.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not resist them!
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are raw images of a routine traffic stop gone bad. But as bad as this appears, attorneys for 16-year-old Donovan Jackson and his father, Coby Chavis, say the tape does not capture everything that happened.
JOE HOPKINS, JACKSON'S ATTORNEY: The worst beating of both parties took place before the video ever started running.
GUTIERREZ: Attorneys for Donovan Jackson and Coby Chavis filed a lawsuit in federal court against Los Angeles County sheriffs and Inglewood police officers at the scene, the city of Inglewood and the county of Los Angeles, alleging their client's civil rights were violated by excessive and unreasonable use of force.
SWEENEY: We want to send the city of Inglewood a message that we are going to prosecute this case as vigorously and as roughly as they beat our clients.
The Inglewood police department, nor the sheriff's department, have commented on the lawsuit. But the sheriff's department did release this incident report. It states that sometime while Coby Chavis was being questioned about a suspended driver's license and expired license plates, the teenager failed to respond to officer commands and refused to get into a patrol car.
That Donovan lunged at the office. That during the altercation, it states, he pulled, scratched and fought with officers, quote, "requiring Inglewood police personnel to strike the subject with personal weapons on his facial area," unquote. TALIBAH SHAKIR, JACKSON'S COUSIN: He was unconscious. It's bad enough that we get beaten simply because of the color of our skin or our zip code. But it's even worse when you do it to a special ed student.
GUTIERREZ: Donovan's family says he has a speech impediment and an auditory disability. And that he is slow to respond. Attorneys say both father and son are undergoing psychological and medical treatment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Now, the plaintiffs are asking for general and punitive damages, as well as medical expenses and attorneys' fees. They have not specified an amount -- Connie.
CHUNG: Thelma, another man had come forward alleging police brutality against the same police department in Inglewood. What you can tell us about this man?
GUTIERREZ: Well, you're right, Connie. A second Inglewood resident has come forward. He is 32-year-old Nielsen Williams. Now, Williams alleges that Inglewood police beat him two weeks before the Jackson incident. He says that he was walking home from the park after attending a gathering when the police stopped him and then started to pummel him. And here is how he describes the incident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIELSON WILLIAMS, ALLEGED BEATING VICTIM: I was pretty much encountered by a fleet of evil police officers who pretty much had no respect for me, anything I was trying to tell them. And they basically beat me to a pulp and almost beat me to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Thelma, I have another question concerning that. Are the Inglewood police investigating and have they given any kind of response?
GUTIERREZ: The police are investigating, Connie. But they have released this statement. I'll read some of it for you. Inglewood police say that shortly after this incident, they say that he appeared to be under the influence of drugs or alcohol, that he was combative. That he began to fight with officers.
They say that they put him into some kind of a neck hold and in handcuffs, and it wasn't until then that they realized that he was breathing, but that he was unconscious.
CHUNG: Thelma, one last question. Has this man, Nielsen Williams, identified any of the officers he believes attacked him?
GUTIERREZ: No. In what we were able to obtain, we didn't see any other names besides the name of Jeremy Morse. Now, he is the officer who was involved in the Jackson case. Now, I should say that attorneys for Nielsen Williams gave us a portion of the complaint that was filed with the Inglewood police department. On that complain is the name Jeremy Morse. This is the officer who has been placed on paid administrative leave.
They did not detail, however, the involvement of Officer Morse in the Williams case. And yesterday, I should say that Nielsen Williams said that after viewing the tape of Donovan Jackson, that he got a gut feeling that it might have been the same officer. But that's about as far as it goes -- Connie.
CHUNG: OK, Thelma, just to clarify. Williams' lawyers said that his name -- meaning Jeremy Morse's name -- was included on the original complaint that was filed a couple weeks ago?
GUTIERREZ: In the document that we were able to obtain, we saw the name of Jeremy Morse, that same officer, on that complaint. Again, though, no details about his involvement, how he was -- how he might have been involved in this particular incident. And police haven't commented, so we're not able to draw a conclusion there. Only that his name was the one that we saw on that document.
CHUNG: All right. CNN's Thelma Gutierrez, you've been doing such a good job. Thank you. Appreciate it.
California State Assemblyman Jerome Horton represents Inglewood. It's where he grew up. He knows Inglewood inside and out, knows the people and the police there. He joins us from our Los Angeles bureau.
Thank you, Mr. Assemblyman, for being with us.
JEROME HORTON, CALIFORNIA STATE ASSEMBLYMAN: Thank you for having us, Connie.
CHUNG: You just heard that Inglewood police were investigating another allegation of police brutality. My question is, are you concerned that there might be some systemic problem within the Inglewood police department?
HORTON: You know, it does concern me that there might be systemic problems, and thus the reason for the FBI investigation to assure that there aren't systemic problem.
But, Connie, let me say, the Inglewood police department has had problems in the past with rogue police officers. And they've been able to address those problems. We've had lawsuits from other individuals in the past, where the police officers -- a particular police officer has acted out of character, outside of his training, outside of the direction of the police department as a whole.
CHUNG: Are you saying that you believe that this is just a one- time incident, when you say a rogue police officer? Because if indeed there is the other incident, involving Nielsen Williams, that would be two. And the question is, you know, people in the community might be saying, how many times does it have to happen before officials such as yourself raise the red flag? HORTON: Well, I think the red flag should have been raised a long time ago. This not a one-time incident. And saying a rogue police officer is not to say that there aren't other rogue police officers within the Inglewood police department -- that there aren't bombs waiting to explode. And the system itself has failed us in that it failed to recognize or to deal with this problem prior to it being caught on videotape.
An individual that acted in this manner, this is not something that this individual, in my mind, based on my observation of the tape, is not a one-time incident for this particular individual. What I was attempting to convey is that it's not indicative of the entire police department. But rogue police officers, there are rogue police officers in the Inglewood police department and other police departments as well.
And we need to do something about that, to root out the systemic problems that exist in the police departments as a whole.
CHUNG: Have you been able to look into the history of that one particular officer, Officer Morse?
HORTON: Not in detail, Connie. The basic history is that the officer has been on duty with the police department for about three years. Of that time, he spent part of that time in training. He's probably been on the street actually working for about a year.
And that's as much as I've been able to gather at this particular time. But we are investigating. My office is intimately involved in this to try to figure out exactly what's going on so that justice is addressed.
CHUNG: Assemblyman Horton, one newspaper report said that in the year 2000, Morse was named, along with other officers, as having engaged in some attack against a citizen. Nothing came of it because the other side did not show up at a court hearing. Do you know anything about that?
HORTON: I'm aware that that did happen and as I said, Connie, looking at this tape, it appears that this is not the first time. This is just the first time that the individual has gotten caught doing this.
This -- it's abusive. It's wrong. It's inappropriate. And we're going to get to the bottom of it and make sure that justice is done.
CHUNG: In a sheriff's deputy report in this incident, one of the sheriff's deputies who was there, he did not mention any attack or any hitting by Officer Morse. Does that say to you that officers, police officers, are protecting each other?
HORTON: You know, that's part of the problem, is kind of the desensitizing of police officers that are working in the field. They perceive this as not being excessive force. Based on their report, my briefing of the report, was that what they did report was that the office did punch the young man.
However, they did not report, they field to report, that he picked him up and slammed him into the car, which is excessive force. And to have the officer perceive that that's not excessive force says one of two things. One, either they are desensitized to the community that they're working in. Or two, they're protecting one another -- both of which is inappropriate.
CHUNG: One last question. Attorney General Ashcroft said today, "The events caught on videotape in Inglewood, California last weekend trouble me greatly because they raise clear questions about whether that law enforcement mission was being served properly in Inglewood."
"Shortly after the Department of Justice's discovery of these events in Inglewood on Monday, July 8, the department asked the civil rights unit of the FBI to open an investigation into this matter."
Is the attorney general doing enough?
HORTON: I think the attorney general is approaching it properly, in that he needs to gather the information. He needs to investigate the case. Based on the evidence that's available, it -- appears that the individual's civil rights have been violated and we need to move aggressively and -- in order to address those violations of his civil rights.
CHUNG: All right, thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Forgive me. Go ahead.
HORTON: I'm sorry, Connie. You've got to gather the information. You have to get all of the facts together so that we can take the appropriate actions as expeditiously as possible.
CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, Assemblyman Horton.
When we come back, what is reasonable force for a police officer? We'll talk to one man who has seen the situation before. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: What ever happened to police brutality victim Abner Louima? While one officer pleaded guilty and is now in prison, legal battles against three others continued. The retrial of an officer accused of holding Louima down during the assault is still under way.
Louima now lives in Florida, where he started a business and is raising his family, with the help of more than $2 million from the city of New York.
CHUNG: The investigation in Inglewood pits two traditional allies, prosecutors and police, against each other. So joining us now from Los Angeles is Ira Reiner. He served as district attorney of Los Angeles County for two terms.
Thank you, Ira, for joining us.
IRA REINER, FMR. DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: Good evening, Connie.
CHUNG: You've seen the tape. Tell me, what constitutes reasonable force or excessive force on the part of law enforcement officers when trying to deal with a suspect?
REINER: Connie, a police officer may use force for only one reason, and that is to restrain an arrestee. But he may not use force to punish that arrestee. Now, as soon as the person has been effectively restrained, and in this case, handcuffed with his hands behind his back with a swarm of officers -- and swarm is the term that is used -- a swarm of officers around him, he was at that point effectively restrained.
And at that moment, it's shut off. It stops. There can be no more force applied after that point.
CHUNG: So, are you saying that Officer Morse crossed the line? That what he did was excessive?
REINER: What he did was unprofessional and is simply not permitted by any police officer. Every police officer knows this and every police department trains their officers with respect to this.
Now, what happened here, pretty clearly, is that there was a confrontation. The confrontation was over but the anger was still with the officer. And in human terms, that's understandable. It's pretty hard to shut it off immediately.
But that's exactly what a police officer has to do if he's professional. He cannot land a sucker punch after the arrestee is completely restrained and handcuffed.
CHUNG: Does it matter what happened prior to that moment that you're discussing?
REINER: Absolutely not. Because that's the point of everything that I've been saying, is that you may use force to restrain. But once the person is effectively restrained, at that moment it stops. It's cut off right then, and you may not use force thereafter.
Because to do it after that is simply to punish. It's to let them -- vent anger. It's to pay back for the fight. But you can't do that when you're a police officer.
CHUNG: OK, just to clarify then, once again. What if the teenager had caused a laceration on the face of Officer Morse?
REINER: If he had caused that laceration, if he had attacked the officer initially, then he can be prosecuted for a crime. But once he's handcuffed, once he's been completely restrained, the police officer may not then at that point punish him by continuing to hit him. And that's what happened in this case.
CHUNG: If indeed you are absolutely correct, what could Officer Morse be charged with?
REINER: Well, there is a penal code section -- it's section 149 in the California penal code -- that makes it a crime, a felony or a misdemeanor -- it could go either way, carrying a sentence of up to one year in state prison, and a fine, if an officer uses force that is unnecessary.
CHUNG: What about the other officers? Are they complicit?
REINER: Well, you know, it's interesting when we look at the videotape. And there is one cautionary note. All that we have is the last few moments.
But, with respect to those last few moments, what we see is one officer who used excessive force after the individual was restrained. But the other officer beside him reached over and, with his arm and his elbow, pushed him away in order to try to separate the two. He was trying to keep the officer from doing again what he'd already done one time.
CHUNG: When you said pushed him away, you obviously do mean pushing Officer Morse away from the teenager.
REINER: Yes, exactly. He put himself, that is, his arm and his elbow, and pressed in order to separate the two so that the officer, apparently, as we look at that, would not do this again.
CHUNG: So, would you say that the officers would not be complicit in that particular charge, but it would have to be determined later what happened before the videotape started rolling to determine whether or not the officers were complicit in using excessive force?
REINER: Precisely, Connie.
CHUNG: All right, Ira Reiner, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
Still ahead, the anonymous letter about the disappearance of Elizabeth Smart. What does the family make of it? We'll talk to Elizabeth's aunt when we continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Another videotape involving police is raising new questions today. The tape was made in Oklahoma City by a man who documents sex crimes in his neighborhood to aid police investigations. Now in this case, he caught a heavy-set man's encounter with an alleged prostitute. You'll see the woman comply when police order her to lie down on the ground. When the man does not, the police use force.
Our next guest says this case is not the same as the one in Inglewood, California. He is the past president of the Washington, D.C. Fraternal Order of Police, 22-year veteran, former police officer Gary Hankins. He is going to walk us through what we are seeing as we view the tape. Gary, thank you so much for joining us.
GARY HANKINS, FORMER PRESIDENT, D.C. FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: Thank you.
CHUNG: We'll start right in as we watch the videotape with our viewers and watch it together. Tell me, is this police officer that you see there justified in using the force that we will see? Well, certainly he's trying to subdue the man. He's trying to handcuff him, isn't he?
HANKINS: Well, what we see here is a subject who is far greater in size than the officer who is trying to arrest him. And in the few frames before this, the officer is telling him to lay down. He sits down. Then he -- in fact, about 40 seconds before this began, that officer was trying to subdue this man by himself. This large subject tossed the officer around when the officer tried to handcuff him. He got one handcuff on him and then the man stood up and resisted the officer. And the officer was in danger of losing control of the situation.
The difference between being one of the 12,000 dead police officers that this country mourns and being accused of excessive force can often be who gets the better of an exchange like this in the first few moments of the encounter. An officer alone with a suspect who is larger than he is, who is not complying, knows that he risks being placed on the wall here in Washington permanently as a dead police officer.
CHUNG: All right. What we're seeing right now is very difficult to watch. I mean, we're seeing this man being beaten by that stick.
HANKINS: They're striking this subject on his legs and on his arms, and he was still not complying.
CHUNG: Yes, but he had his arms out, you know, as if what are doing to me.
HANKINS: He was not being affected by the blows that were being put on him and he was not complying. If he had done what the prostitute, or alleged prostitute, had done and simply sat down, allowed himself to be handcuffed, there would have been no need for any force. I can tell you, unfortunately, that each year, we're going to see 150 to 200 more officers killed. Almost all of them are killed in a situation where they're surprised by an assailant when they thought they had control of the situation.
CHUNG: Well, let me continue to be devil's advocate here. He had his arm's out. He was as if to say what you are doing. And he wasn't actually fighting the police officer. He didn't attack him or lunge at him.
HANKINS: Well, he seemed to be relatively impervious to the officer's attempts to subdue him. If you're the officer and you're trying to handcuff a suspect, and he's just questioning you. And you'll see here, he had one handcuff on. When the officer actually tried to handcuff him, he then resisted.
And it only takes a moment, just a moment, to grab an officer's weapon and turn it against him. And many of our fellow officers who are killed are killed when they relax and a suspect who appears to be compliant or docile then uses that opportunity to snatch a weapon and to kill the officer. Here in Washington, we had two officers in Prince Georges County killed by a 15-year-old who was not handcuffed tightly. And I think because the officers were trying to be gentle with him, and he slipped out of the handcuffs, grabbed the first officer's gun, shot him and then shot his partner. And that is repeated, unfortunately, thousands of times in the history of this country, hundreds of times in the last couple of decades.
CHUNG: OK. And let me just ask you one more question. You know, again, it's devil's advocate. The man was yanked by his shirt, but he did appear to be handcuffed at that point. Certainly, that doesn't hurt, but he was dragged a little bit by his shirt. Was that unreasonable?
HANKINS: No, I don't think it was. And I think we ought to also put into context the experience of police officers on the street. When a subject like this is involved with the police and he's involved in a single altercation, that's an extraordinary or unusual event unless he or she is a habitual offender.
For police officers, in many neighborhoods in our communities, they are assaulted regularly. They are threatened regularly. And, unfortunately, they are killed with a tragic frequency when they lose control of situations. Now, as you're doing this kind of work on the streets and you're becoming assaulted, you're being threatened and you may have come close to losing your life once or twice, you tend to be a lot more aggressive the next time someone doesn't respond to you in a way because you may -- you could be dead.
CHUNG: Yes, absolutely. I understand that. And take a look at this videotape. In the beginning, the man did sit down and then he wouldn't agree to be, obviously, handcuffed. He's pepper-sprayed right there, right?
HANKINS: Right.
CHUNG: And doesn't seem to have any impact on him.
HANKINS: And that's a very dangerous sign to an officer, that if you use mace or chemical spray that doesn't seem to have an effect on the person you're using it against, there is a strong likelihood he's high on some kind of intoxicant and then very likely to withstand pain and not be compliant as a normal person would, all of these things that would ratchet up the fear that the officer would have. And any officer out there who says, oh, I'm not afraid, I'm in control, he's lying to you and he's lying to himself.
CHUNG: So, bottom line -- it's very difficult to watch regardless -- bottom line, you're saying that any of the force that we see being used here in your mind is OK?
HANKINS: I believe that the officer, especially when he's alone, is trying his best to control this subject and it's not working. And as he continues to try to progress in his continuum of force and it's not having the desired effect, you always are worried that at any moment, when what you're doing isn't controlling someone, especially someone that much bigger than you are, and if he decided to turn on you, you could be dead very quickly.
CHUNG: All right. Gary Hankins, thank you so much for being with us.
Still ahead, what would justify beating an 11-year-old boy with an inch thick tree branch? This disturbing story when we come back.
ANNOUNCER: Still to come, he says he was held down and beaten by his pastor. Tonight, anger and frustration from the victim's family when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: What goes through your mind when you trust your child to the care of other people? Do you feel better about it when they're men of God? What if this trust leads to a result that you would find unthinkable?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): On July 3, 11-year-old Louie Guerrero was asked by his pastor to find a simple passage from the Bible. He could not find the passage. What happened next is anything but simple. According to police, the pastor responded by beating the boy for more than an hour with a tree branch while another man, the pastor's twin brother, held him down. Louie Guerrero suffered kidney damage and severe bruising, and remains hospitalized after five days in intensive care. His mother is outraged. She wants justice.
NORMA ARELLANO, MOTHER OF VICTIM: He gets me angry. So angry. Because he didn't have no right to hold him down and the other one to beat him.
CHUNG: The pastor's father, Hank Thompson, doesn't believe his sons would do such a thing.
HANK THOMPSON, PASTOR'S FATHER: My son would have used a thin switch. That I'm positive of. Because I -- I mean, I'm -- I'm sure of that, no lie. I just know my boys that well. I don't know -- my policy would have never been on the back, probably like that, it would have been on the bottom.
CHUNG: According to one member of the church who did not want to be identified, physical discipline, called breaking a child, is encouraged by the church.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He would explain that you had to use a rod, and -- because the rod -- because, you know, the belt didn't do it, because it would just leave lashes, but the rod would get into the soul, would get into the -- into the deep down in the skin.
CHUNG: The defense attorney for the pastor and his brother believes the facts have been distorted.
JERALD FINNEY, PASTOR'S ATTORNEY: Pastor Hank Thompson, the pastor of Capital City Baptist Church, has instructed all of his personnel not to use corporal punishment against the children of church members.
CHUNG: But Louie's parents say corporal punishment is exactly what their son received, and he has the wounds to prove it.
ARELLANO: I don't do this to my children. My husband don't do this to my children. Why should anybody else do this to my kids?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: The pastor and his brother, Joshua and Caleb Thompson, have declined to speak with us. Their lawyer, though, says they are innocent, and that authorities with whipped up -- quote -- "mass mob hysteria."
But not everyone agrees. Among them, in Austin, Louie's mother, Norma Arellano, stepfather Genevivo (ph) Arellano, and family attorney Bobby Taylor -- thank you so much for being with us.
Norma, may I start with you? Can you tell me, what has your son described to you as to what happened when he was beaten?
ARELLANO: Well, he told me that -- how he was beaten by Josh. He took him to Caleb's house. Laying him in the bed, and started hitting him in the back, and he was fighting, and he put the music real loud so he won't -- he was screaming, so the put the music real loud. And he was just fighting, and he called Caleb for help.
CHUNG: And how long did that go on?
ARELLANO: The first time, he said...
CHUNG: You mean the -- Joshua, meaning the pastor, called his brother to help -- you mean, to help hold your son down?
ARELLANO: Yes. The first time he said that Joshua told him it was an hour, and then he asked -- he called for help -- he called Caleb.
CHUNG: You mean, the pastor was beating your son for an entire hour?
ARELLANO: Around there, about.
CHUNG: And then, his twin brother, the pastor's twin brother came, and actually held your son down?
ARELLANO: Yes.
CHUNG: Was your son at any point ever able to run away or escape?
ARELLANO: No. He said that if he were to run away, that they would still catch him.
CHUNG: What were his -- can you describe his injures?
ARELLANO: His injuries? His back was all bruised, from neck all the way to the top of his behind. Red, purple.
CHUNG: And his kidneys?
ARELLANO: What...
CHUNG: He suffered kidney failure as well?
ARELLANO: Yes.
CHUNG: All right. When he saw you, he must have been so emotional, and you were probably emotional as well.
ARELLANO: He wasn't crying.
CHUNG: No?
ARELLANO: No. He was -- I was. I mean, I was screaming, but I had to calm myself down. I felt I was going out of control. So I knew I had to stop and help him.
CHUNG: How did he finally get away from them?
ARELLANO: They brought him to my house.
CHUNG: And did they tell you what you they did?
ARELLANO: No. They told my husband -- they had -- they called us like around 11:30 a.m. that July 3, saying that there was a problem, that he tried to resolve that problem, but that was it. And I was thinking maybe he didn't make it for the practice to go to Olympic Summer (ph), that was my thinking.
So, I asked my husband, What else did they say? He goes, That's all they said. So they said they were going to wait at home -- at my home. So we drove -- when we got there, they were already there.
CHUNG: I see. Norma, tell me, has the church preached corporal punishment? Have you ever heard anyone at the church, that pastor or anyone else, say that beating or spanking was appropriate?
ARELLANO: By Josh? He was -- that preaching, that's when I heard real hard discipline on the kids, but he would preach that you can hit your child for four hours on the back, and that nothing will happen to him.
CHUNG: All right. Over to your attorney, Bobby Taylor. Can you tell me, where are these two men now, Joshua and Caleb Thompson? BOBBY TAYLOR, FAMILY ATTORNEY: The two men turned themselves in yesterday to the Austin Police Department, and they were arrested. They were both charged with injury to a child, and they had bond set of $25,000 for each. They were in jail as of this morning. I have not checked in the last several hours, but they were placed in the jail here in Austin, Travis County, Texas.
CHUNG: And very quickly, if they are found guilty, what do they face?
TAYLOR: The charge of injury to a child is a first degree felony here in Texas, and the range of punishment is a minimum of five years to life or 99, but under the law, if given by a judge or jury, they could also receive up to ten year probation. So it is anywhere from five years to life or 99, and they might qualify, and the judge or jury could give them probation.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much. Genevivo (ph) and Norma Arellano, I appreciate your being with us. Thank you, Bobby Taylor, as well. We certainly hope that there is some resolution for you. Is your son getting out of the hospital soon?
ARELLANO: Yes. He'll be -- maybe tomorrow.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much for being with us and we wish him well.
ARELLANO: Thank you.
TAYLOR: Thank you.
CHUNG: All right. We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Next -- have the captors of Elizabeth Smart contacted her family?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We really want Elizabeth back. We want her back now. We are anxious to receive any correspondence that are credible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: What's in the letter? And will it lead to the end of the missing girl mystery? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will return in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: If it's fake, it's cruel torture. But if it's real, the letter sent to the family of Elizabeth Smart is a ray of hope that they might some day get their daughter back.
A law enforcement source has told CNN investigators doubt the letter's credibility, and Elizabeth's father, Ed Smart, who revealed the letter's existence today, also does not know whether to believe it.
The postmarked letter makes no ransom demand and does not say how negotiations would take place, but Smart said he couldn't rule out the possibility it's real.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMART: It opened an avenue that I had not considered, which was trying to address whoever's holding Elizabeth to please correspond. I'm concerned that he is so frightened and afraid of the -- of having her that he can't see how he can release her.
And I just -- I want to do whatever it's going to take to help facilitate her release. That's what I want to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: We're joined now by Cynthia Smart Owens, Ed Smart's sister, Elizabeth's aunt. Thank you so much for being with us, Cynthia.
CYNTHIA SMART OWENS, AUNT OF MISSING GIRL: You bet. Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Cynthia, how did the letter come into the family's hands?
OWENS: It was received at an off site -- somewhere other than Edward's home that was a known center for the search. It was not -- I can't -- there are several places that it could have been, but anyway, once it was received and identified as being something significant, the police were notified and a faxed copy of it was sent to them, and then shortly thereafter Edward received the original.
CHUNG: I see. The family had it before the police did?
OWENS: I don't know that that is the case. Apparently some of the lead investigators in the police department were unaware that it had been received somewhere else within the police...
CHUNG: Oh, I see, so that caused confusion, is right, Cynthia? That's what caused the confusion?
OWENS: The FBI -- the FBI were aware of it before the conference today.
CHUNG: I see. But before Ed Smart held the news conference.
OWENS: Yes.
CHUNG: You're saying FBI authorities knew about it. All right. Cynthia, tell me this. Was it checked for fingerprints?
OWENS: No.
CHUNG: It wasn't? Did you find that unusual?
OWENS: No.
CHUNG: You don't? Why not?
OWENS: I find it very interesting. I think part of -- they, because of certain elements within the letter, I think it was questioned whether it was actually legitimate, and I guess they just chose and felt that it wasn't significant enough.
CHUNG: I see. Was the letter analyzed by authorities?
OWENS: It was received by them and reviewed by them. I guess in some sense it was analyzed.
CHUNG: Can you describe the letter, Cynthia? Did you see it yourself?
OWENS: Actually, I have not seen it. I've talked with Edward and he's read me parts of it. I've talked with him about his impressions about it, but it was not from the alleged abductor himself. It was from another person who had contact with him that was describing circumstances and a desire on the abductor's part to release her, given certain conditions that were not monetary.
CHUNG: I see. And since you received the letter, have there been any follow-up calls or communications?
OWENS: Not from the person who sent the letter, that we're aware of.
CHUNG: Does the family recognize the name of this person who sent the letter?
OWENS: There was no name. There was no name.
CHUNG: I see.
OWENS: There was no indication of how to contact the person, either.
CHUNG: Does the family, do you think, feel a little more hopeful because of that letter, or the exact opposite?
OWENS: Well, I can say just personally, I think it is somewhat encouraging when it would be one of the best case scenarios we could imagine. Just that she's alive, that somebody does want to give her up.
And so, in that way, it's kind of nice to hear that somebody wants to at least have things appear that way. We are somewhat skeptical about the legitimacy of the letter, however. So it's, you know, just one of the ups and downs we see.
CHUNG: Sure. And finally, do you believe that your niece is still alive?
OWENS: Edward's certainty of it gives me a lot of hope. I have felt for a very long time -- frankly, personally, the initial first few days I could only think of the worst case scenario, and then I became very hopeful that this person didn't know what to do with her, was realizing a mistake and that there was a potential for her to be OK and to be let go, and I felt that way for many weeks.
I wonder somewhat more. I still have great faith that God knows where she is and that He's watching over her and it may not be best, you know, there are so many scenarios where it wouldn't be in her best interest to still be alive. We still pray for her protection and that we'll be able to find her.
CHUNG: OK. Cynthia Smart Owens, thank you so much for joining us, and please give our best to the family. We'll be right back.
OWENS: Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: I'm Connie Chung. Tomorrow I'll talk with 16-year-old Donovan Jackson, the teenager at the center of the videotape controversy, and coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," more on the developments of the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart.
Good night, everyone. See you tomorrow.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
