Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Alleged Police Brutality Incidents Create Furor; Woman Rescued from Dangling SUV
Aired July 12, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung. Tonight, anger over alleged police violence in Inglewood. Protesters call for the officers' arrest.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight from Los Angeles -- voices of anger. The community of Inglewood takes to the street demanding answers and action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me tell you, Mr. Mayor, you want to do an independent investigation, I got somebody to have it done. I'll do it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Response time. What goes through a police officer's mind when under stress to apprehend? Tonight -- both sides. The cops and the people they're supposed to protect.
An amazing rescue. Tense moments, trapped in a crashed SUV, dangling from a bridge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a Ford Explorer that is hanging over the edge of the overpass. I mean, he's hanging by like a tire or something.
ANNOUNCER: We'll meet the driver and hero that rescued her.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from Los Angeles, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. Today, hundreds of people from inside and outside Inglewood made their views known about Officer Jeremy Morse. They want him arrested, and they don't want to wait for it.
We begin tonight with CNN's Thelma Gutierrez who's on the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a community's call for action. Anger unleashed because of this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police brutality is a wrong thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am sick and tired of every police department claiming racial profiling doesn't exist.
GUTIERREZ: Nearly 300 protesters marched peacefully side by side around Inglewood's city hall.
REV. MARTIN LUTHER KING III, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: This is not a black and white issue, this is a right and wrong issue.
GUTIERREZ: They stood in front of the Inglewood police headquarters. The Reverend Martin Luther King III took the podium and made demands of the police chief.
KING: They should be fired immediately. Why should a police officer have the legitimate legal right to beat up somebody because he's a police officer?
GUTIERREZ: The protesters also called for the dismissal of all the officers you see here in the video who did not jump in to stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It seems that the only way to protect our civil liberties now is to have a camera.
GUTIERREZ: The attorney for 24-year-old Officer Jeremy Morse says this video doesn't tell the whole story. He claims 16-year-old Donovan Jackson grabbed the officer's groin area while his hands were cuffed behind (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and that Morse punched him so that he'd let go.
TALIBAH SHAKIR, COUSIN OF DONOVAN JACKSON: Donovan, in no way did he hit anybody in the testicles. And if he did, it must have been an involuntary reflex action.
GUTIERREZ: The Inglewood police chief did not show up at the protests, but has said he thinks it's too soon to decide whether Officer Morse should be fired. It is a position that outraged the crowd.
NAJEE ALI, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Ten years ago, we protested and we fought Darryl Gates out of office because he did not take the Rodney King beating seriously. And 10 years later, we're here to say that if you don't give up these rogue officers, we'll get rid of you.
GUTIERREZ: All of this took place right in front of police headquarters. Police kept a very low profile.
Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Inglewood.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now is a longtime civil rights activist who went to Inglewood for today's rally, Dick Gregory. Thank you, Mr. Gregory, for being with us. Can you hear me? DICK GREGORY, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I can hear you very well.
CHUNG: All right. I'm having trouble hearing you, though.
GREGORY: Can you hear me now?
CHUNG: Just barely. Can you speak to me one more time?
GREGORY: Can you hear me now?
CHUNG: Yes, I can. Thank you so much, Mr. Gregory.
All right. I'm sure you are aware that authorities are probably very concerned that any protests could turn into rioting. Do you have that fear as well?
GREGORY: None whatsoever. It's the protesters that keep rioting down. New York City have had one police incident after another, and because of Al Sharptons and the community people that would come out, it had never gone into an explosion.
You know, in a country like America, we want to see one side of it. We know damn good and well, had those been white cops beat -- black cops beating up a 16-year-old white youth, the president of the United States would have made a statement. When it becomes our turn, we talk about being fair, we like to wait until the facts come in. White folks didn't wait until the facts were in before they fired those two pilots the other day that was flying the plane drunk.
CHUNG: Well, Mr. Gregory, let's take it from the other angle that you just mentioned. What if that teenager were white and the officer were black? If that was the case, don't you think it would be a rush to judgment to say all of those officers, as you all did, should be fired?
GREGORY: No, we're not saying that. We say we know they would be fired. We know that. This is one atrocity after another. This is not one incident to black folks. This happens one time after another, after another, after another. We watched it, we grew up with it. I mean, police brutality in this country is worse than the Ku Klux Klan. If the Ku Klux Klan called my a nigger, I could call him a nigger back. If he pulled out a gun, I could take his gun. I can't do that to a cop.
CHUNG: Let's get to the issue at hand, Mr. Gregory. In this particular case, the question is protests have been held and aren't -- don't you have a responsibility to make sure that there is no rioting? Because there could be a fanning of the fires that you would not intentionally want fanned, but nonetheless there.
GREGORY: I guess you didn't hear me. There is protests in New York...
CHUNG: I did.
GREGORY: ... there has never been rioting. Why? Because it brings the community out, it tells people who have no power that someone cares. That's why I'm here today. That's why Martin Luther King III is here, that's why wherever there is hot spots, we go in. I'm the one that got shot in Watts trying to put down the violence. So I want to come in before it happens to say to all of those folks out there that have no voice, you know, police brutality to black folks in America is like sun cancer is to white folks. You come out in the sun, you've got to be careful. We come out in the street, we feel we have to be careful. Most white folks in America has never brutalized a black person, have never seen a black person been brutalized.
CHUNG: Mr. Gregory, let me ask you another question, if I may.
GREGORY: Yes.
CHUNG: All right. Mr. Gregory, I've talked with a family member of the officer in question, Officer Jeremy Morse, and family members believe that he's being painted as a monster, that he's being convicted before any adjudication of the case. What do you think?
GREGORY: The same thing happened...
CHUNG: Do you think that there is a rush to judgment here?
GREGORY: People rushed to judgment on Dick Nixon, people rushed to judgment on Clinton. I mean, this a country that rush to judgment because we see certain things on video film. Had there not been a video film of this here, there wouldn't have been no judgment at all. You can't tell me what my eyes are seeing I can't base it on that. If this man were to kill 12 people, once he's handcuffed, you know, then there is a certain thing we expect out of the cops. We notice the cops never beat up mobsters. We noticed dope pushers can stand on the corner, and they go untouched.
CHUNG: Dick Gregory, Dick Gregory, I thank you so much for being with us. Appreciate it.
GREGORY: Thank you. Thank you.
CHUNG: We are joined now by the attorneys for the one man who has landed in a jail cell in all of this. Mitchell Crooks was picked up outside CNN studios yesterday by officers from the Los Angeles County district attorney on outstanding warrants. He had said several times that he was fearful for his safety, and that fear was demonstrated quite early in the videotape that a CNN cameraman captured as Crooks was driven away.
This obviously is the original tape that Mitchell Crooks had shot, and we did have the sound of him basically screaming and saying "help, help" as he was being driven away.
Now, Mitchell Crooks is represented by Dean Masserman and Ralph Harrison, and they join me here tonight.
I want to play for you a tape first. It's an audiotape of a voice mail recording of Mitchell Crooks who had called his friend, Dan Hanna (ph), and this was just yesterday, while he was in police custody. Let's listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITCHELL CROOKS: Dan, hey, this is Mitch, I just wasted my second call on this. I don't have any more calls. I don't know how I'm going to be able to contact anybody from the outside at this point. I'm really afraid, I'm really scared they're going to take me back to -- they're going to take me back to Placer County and so that Placer County can have their turns beating on me that so nobody will be watching me. They've already roughed me up pretty good. I've got scars, I've got bruises. My hip is all messed up. So, I need you to get on top of this and have somebody come directly to the jail and talk to me and get this situation resolved, because this is only going to get worse from here on out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: All right. Before I ask you about his condition and where he is, I want to find out, has Mitchell Crooks had similar conversations with you in which he's been completely terrified of what would happen to him?
DEAN MASSERMAN, ATTORNEY FOR MITCHELL CROOKS: Yes, he's absolutely had conversations with us where he's expressed his terror, his concern about being beaten by police officers or revenge being taken against him for producing the videotape, which is now the subject of national scrutiny.
CHUNG: All right. Well, then, very -- back to the first question, where is he now and what's his physical condition?
MASSERMAN: Currently, his physical condition is not bad. Mr. -- my co-counsel and I -- I'm so sorry.
CHUNG: You've been up all night.
MASSERMAN: We've been up fairly late. Mr. Harrison is around here...
CHUNG: I know. You've been literally up all night, right, both you and Ralph Harrison have been up all night. So, it's a little hard to form the words right now. Go ahead.
MASSERMAN: We were at the medical center until about 11 p.m. last night and at the jail today, often times seeing our client.
CHUNG: And what I had asked you about was his physical condition. How would you describe his injuries, if indeed there are any injuries?
HARRISON: Well, his injuries, present, he has some lacerations on his wrists. He also has...
CHUNG: From the handcuffs?
HARRISON: From the handcuffs. And he also has some lacerations on, I believe, his left shoulder. He said that he has pain in his left shoulder.
CHUNG: How did he get the pain in the right shoulder?
HARRISON: Well, it appears to us that he was grabbed. They look like fingerprints that are in his left shoulder. He was also banged up against a wall. And that's the only information that we have so far about...
CHUNG: By the Los Angeles County D.A. office plainclothesman? Is that correct?
MASSERMAN: Apparently, they were officers working for the district attorney's office in conjunction with their office of integrity, which is a division created by Steve Cooley (ph) to expedite the investigation of police misconduct.
CHUNG: All right. Let's go back then to last night, because earlier, you had described to me what had happened to Mitchell Crooks, that he -- you saw him very briefly on a gurney. Describe to me what he was doing on the gurney and how you saw him and why you couldn't go up and talk to him at the time?
MASSERMAN: Well, what we saw -- first of all, we were told by the district attorney's officers, you will not get to speak to your client. We obviously advised that we have a right to talk to our client, and we were told under no circumstance will you get to talk to your client tonight. We don't care what you say.
CHUNG: That was last night.
MASSERMAN: That was last night. Mr. Harrison and I decided to wait anyway. He told us we should leave. We stayed anyway. At some point, they had to wheel him out from the holding area where he was, downstairs for X-rays. And they had to wheel him by us. And they came out and admonished us that when they wheel him out, we are not to talk to him, we are not to engage him. We expressed a concern about that and we also said we at least wanted to visualize him and see whether or not he was injured and see what his condition was. What we saw was rather distressing. He was strapped to the gurney, tied down with ties, both hands.
CHUNG: You mean tethered?
MASSERMAN: Tethered.
HARRISON: Tethered and handcuffed.
MASSERMAN: Right.
HARRISON: Tethered and handcuffed like he was Hannibal Lechter or someone. And he was covered by a sheet, so we couldn't see any parts of his body. What we could see is we could see his face and we could see his arms. There didn't appear to be any things on his arms or any lacerations on his face. We couldn't see under the sheet, but we knew that he was on his way down to X-ray.
CHUNG: Did you try to approach him and talk to him, and were you allowed to or...
MASSERMAN: We tried to approach him and there was a wall of deputies that had pretty much blocked our ability to get close to the gurney or even kind of peek over their shoulders and see what was going on. And when we did speak merely to identify ourselves, tell him that we were there, to relax and to be at ease and that we were keeping an eye on everything, we were told to step back and reminded that we were admonished not to communicate with him in any way.
CHUNG: Did you find this behavior a bit unusual?
HARRISON: Yes. He seemed rather dazed, as if he was sedated.
CHUNG: No, I don't mean Mitch. I'm talking about the behavior that the officials were portraying against you.
MASSERMAN: I think it was unusual because the sheriff's deputies there, to their credit, were saying, yes, when we're done examining him, you can talk to him. But the district attorney's agents and the detectives there on behalf of their office were interfering with the normal protocol, which is for us to see our client, and saying you're not going to see him, you're not going to or talk to him. And for whatever reason, the D.A. was not relinquishing that control and not affording him his due process rights and his right to counsel.
CHUNG: Exactly. All right, you were about to tell me exactly what -- he appeared dazed, you said?
HARRISON: He seemed very dazed, rather despondent. He didn't seem like he was reacting well to what was going on around him or even that aware of what was going on around him. He knew that he was being carried down the stairs. He had somewhat of a funny look on his face. We...
CHUNG: What do you mean?
HARRISON: Well, we kind of -- we weren't sure whether or not he was drugged at that point.
MASSERMAN: We're not saying he was, but he was almost in shock. He was shocky.
CHUNG: All right. Tell me where he is now and his physical condition? Basically, you're saying he's all right now?
MASSERMAN: He seems better. He -- as we indicated, he does have some bruises and some abrasions. He's a little worse for the wear. I think he was manhandled. I think that more force than was necessary was used. We're not saying he was beaten, but they certainly didn't take care to protect him either.
CHUNG: And where is he now?
MASSERMAN: I believe he is on an airplane on his way to Placer.
CHUNG: And will you still be representing him in Placer? HARRISON: Yes. And an airplane trip is also unusual. Usually the -- I guess the authorities would come down from that county and pick him up. He's being shipped off in an airplane now. Why, we don't know. It's just as bizarre as the pick-up.
(CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: One question, is there more of his tape than what we've seen on television?
MASSERMAN: We don't have any reason to believe that there is. We've had the opportunity to sit in on some meetings, and I'm not really at liberty to disclose what those meetings were, who were present at those meetings, but there were...
CHUNG: Well, I'm aware of who they were. It was internal affairs, wasn't it, that had met with you as well?
MASSERMAN: Since you know, yes, it was. Yes, it was.
CHUNG: And you also met with the D.A.?
MASSERMAN: No, we have not met with the district attorney. They don't want to talk to us.
CHUNG: They don't? But did they talk to Mitchell Crooks? Did he verify that the tape was shot by himself, by him?
MASSERMAN: He testified in front of the grand jury and authenticated that tape, yes.
CHUNG: All right. And did the D.A. want any other information from him?
MASSERMAN: To our knowledge, the D.A. did not question him at all.
CHUNG: All right. So he fulfilled the D.A.'s request?
MASSERMAN: As he said he would from the beginning.
CHUNG: Did he at any time, Mr. Harrison, decide that he did not want to defy the request by the D.A.?
HARRISON: Well, he said that he would cooperate with the D.A.'s office. When he was called up -- I believe he was at a radio station -- he said that he would be more than happy to cooperate. So he wasn't trying to hide. He was cooperating with them and he was willing to do whatever was necessary to authenticate the tape. And I think what's going on now is an atrocity. They're trying to cast a cloud over what took place in Inglewood and that was the beating of Donovan Jackson.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Ralph Harrison and Dean Masserman -- isn't it? It's not Masterman?
MASSERMAN: Thank you. Yes.
CHUNG: Thank you so much for being with us.
We have one more thing that we want to pass along to our viewers, and that is a statement from the Los Angeles County district attorney's office, and the press secretary said based on our information, his, meaning Crooks', allegations are completely groundless. So, the D.A.'s office is saying that he was not manhandled or in any way beaten up by anyone when he was in custody.
When we come back, we'll talk with two people who have been on the frontlines of the national debate about excessive police force. That's right after this short break.
ANNOUNCER: (AUDIO GAP) but how far is too far? Both sides of this emotionally charged issue.
And later, dangling from a highway overpass, moments from falling to her death. The daring mid-air rescue. CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: In one week, 30 seconds of videotaped violence have launched state, local and federal investigations, a lawsuit, subpoenas and even the arrest of the one guy who wasn't on camera, but behind it. And the one question remains, excessive force or doing their job?
Joining us now, Mark Seiden, a retired Miami-Dade police sergeant, who has been a defense attorney for 20 years now. And in New York, we have a former California prosecutor, James Curtis, who now anchors trial coverage for Court TV. Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.
Thanks for having me, Connie.
Thank you for having us, Connie.
CHUNG: All right. First -- appreciate it. Obviously, the first question is was it excessive force or was it reasonable? Why don't we start with you, Mr. Seiden?
MARK SEIDEN, RETIRED MIAMI-DADE POLICE SERGEANT: Well, in my opinion, it was reasonable given the circumstances. For one thing, this is a rush to judgment. You will see this sort of a pattern in just about every police case that develops in front of the media in a high-profile matter. We can't see what happened behind the car. If, as the officer says, the young man grabbed for his groin, the officer was entirely justified in using force to stop that. If he kicked back, even just a little bit, he was entirely justified. Remember one thing...
CHUNG: But what about -- let me ask you one thing then. What about when the young man was picked up and slammed against the car?
SEIDEN: Well, you're dealing with a young man who just finished injuring several police officers. If you read the police reports, which I'm sure you have, you'll see that the officers were cut, scratched, bruised and otherwise injured by this young man. So, we're not dealing with somebody just out of grade school. He was violent. He attacked the officers for no reason. And they were justified.
CHUNG: But -- well, but he is handcuffed.
SEIDEN: That doesn't make any difference.
CHUNG: Forgive me. He was handcuffed, and so he was picked up from the ground and slammed on the car. Do you believe that was justified?
SEIDEN: Absolutely. He just attacked several police officers. The police officers are justified in using whatever force is necessary to control them, and I don't think that there is anything wrong with that they did. Why doesn't somebody criticize the young man for having attacked the officers and them doing nothing more than writing a traffic ticket to his father? Why hasn't that been brought up?
CHUNG: All right. Mr. Curtis, why doesn't someone criticize this teenager? I mean, he -- shouldn't he have just complied with everything that the authorities, the law enforcement authorities were asking him to do?
JAMES CURTIS, FORMER CALIFORNIA PROSECUTOR: Well, one of the few things that I agree with that's been said thus far is the idea that this young man -- we don't know what happened before, what we see on the videotape. Furthermore, this young man is not charged with the higher duty of responsibility, the higher duty of care. And the option of using lethal force with that charge, being a sworn peace officer, in any state, and particularly in California, there is an added responsibility. And as was stated earlier, once the officers gained control, then there is no legitimate reason to use the force and that has to be the question.
CHUNG: Well, let's look at the videotape. Do you believe that the officers had gained control at a certain point?
CURTIS: Well, it seems like -- it seems as if they have. When you look at the videotape, once they picked this young man up and are escorting him toward the car, prior to what we just saw, which was slamming him into the back of the car, it appears, and I want to emphasize the word it appears, that they did have control.
I have to agree that, you know, the idea that we need to really make a careful investigation and not jump to a conclusion is important. It is a significant and valid point. However, it is equally valid that people take to the streets, that people call into question what they perceive to be a consistent amount of tactics.
CHUNG: I believe we just lost Mr. Curtis. Mr Seiden, can you still hear me?
SEIDEN: Yes, I can, Connie.
CHUNG: I'm sorry, we have a little problem...
SEIDEN: I can hear you just fine.
CHUNG: And we thank them for being with us. But we'll go to a commercial.
Still ahead, an amazing rescue that will have you on the edge of your seat. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We have reconnected with Mark Seiden and James Curtis. Gentlemen, I'm going to show you a videotape of -- the same videotape we've been looking at, but in it you will see, and I'm sure you've noticed this, that one of the police officers sort of tries to prevent Officer Morse from having contact again with the teenager.
My question first to Mr. Seiden, excuse me, is isn't that an indication that he was trying to prevent Officer Morse from hitting him again?
SEIDEN: No. We don't know what happened there because none of us were there. Only the people that were there and observed the entire action, both in front of and behind the car, can talk about that.
CHUNG: You can see it on the videotape, can't you?
SEIDEN: Oh, you can see lots of things on videotapes that didn't really happen. I recall I was doing a trial one time and it looked like the defendant collapsed in my arms out of relief when the verdict came back not guilty. In reality my glasses were knocked off and he was bending down to pick them up. Pictures do not tell a complete story, especially snippets. You have to be there. You need witnesses.
CHUNG: But this is not a snippet. You're following the action as you see it, and don't you see that hand coming out and -- almost as if to ask Officer Morse to stop?
SEIDEN: No, I don't interpret it that way, Connie. Because this is a fluid situation. People are in motion. Until somebody asks that sergeant what was in his mind, with why did he interpose his hand there, we don't know.
CHUNG: All right.
SEIDEN: And we don't know if it -- we don't know what that young man was doing to Officer Morse, either. Only the people there can make that judgment.
CHUNG: Mr. Curtis, wouldn't it be justified for Officer Morse to hit the teenager if indeed the teenager grabbed at his groin area?
CURTIS: Absolutely not. I mean, that statement, I think, is ludicrous. The idea that this teenager, who is handcuffed behind his back could do some significant harm that would justify that use of force, I think is totally beyond the pale.
I was listening to the arch-conservative Pat Buchanan. He even agrees that this force is excessive in light of what potentially might have been done by this young man.
CHUNG: Bear in mind...
SEIDEN: Obviously, Mr. Curtis has never had his groin grabbed.
CHUNG: Bear in mind, Mr. Curtis -- I want to follow up. Mr. Seiden, I want to follow up with Mr. Curtis.
Mr. Curtis, bear in mind that Officer Morse actually submitted his report on the incident before the tape came out. And that's the way he described it. So he wasn't making anything up, apparently.
CURTIS: Well, Connie...
CHUNG: Because he put it down on paper.
CURTIS: Connie, let me just stop you there. You cannot assume that because, one, it was put down on paper or because it was put down on paper prior to this videotape coming to light, that it is not a fabrication or -- not implying or imputing any ill will no to this officer -- that it is indeed accurate.
Recall in the Rodney King incident but for the version of the facts by the CHP officer who was not affiliated with L.A.P.D. on the scene, would it have come to light that the officer officers who prepare reports in that instance had lied?
CHUNG: All right. Mr. Seiden, I'm sorry, I interrupted you and you were about to say something.
SEIDEN: Yes, I'm saying that Mr. Curtis has obviously never had his groin grabbed because if he had...
CURTIS: Oh, yes I have.
SEIDEN: ...entirely appropriate reaction.
CURTIS: No, I have. Believe me.
SEIDEN: And I'll tell you what. If somebody grabbed my groin, I would have done the same thing that officer did.
CURTIS: Not appropriate.
SEIDEN: We have officers here -- it's not appropriate to second guess people and judge people wearing a suit and sitting in an air conditioned office, Mr. Curtis.
CURTIS: Now that is absolutely wrong, because it happens every day. Mark, you know the job of juries, whether or not it's charging you with malpractice, charging me with libel, or charging an officer with excessive force, it is the job and indeed the duty within our system of justice to second guess and figure out what is reasonable and when.
SEIDEN: That's exactly what you're doing, you're second guessing.
CHUNG: And finally...
SEIDEN: Now let me ask Mr. Curtis one question...
CHUNG: All right. Go ahead.
SEIDEN: Mr. Curtis, have you ever been a police officer? Have you ever made an arrest in your life?
CURTIS: No, that is absolutely irrelevant. And you know it is. It is absolutely irrelevant...
SEIDEN: Just answer my question. I will sit here until hell freezes over until you answer my question...
CURTIS: Let me tell you why it is irrelevant...
SEIDEN: Have you ever been on the street, Mr. Curtis?
CURTIS: ...juries every day making judgments...
SEIDEN: Have you ever been on the street?
CURTIS: Every officer...
(CROSSTALK)
SEIDEN: Why won't you answer my question...
CHUNG: Gentlemen...
(CROSSTALK)
CURTIS: Because you, sir...
CHUNG: Gentlemen, I need to interrupt you because it's time for us to leave you.
CURTIS: You, sir...
(CROSSTALK)
...false dilemma...
SEIDEN: Answer the question! I'll sit here until hell freezes over.
CHUNG: All right. Appreciate your being with us. Perhaps you can continue. We'll keep the satellite up so you can talk to each other.
CURTIS: All right. CHUNG: But we're going to leave you here. Thank you so much for being with us.
CURTIS: Thanks, Connie.
CHUNG: We will continue, but first we go to Aaron Brown in New York for a quick check of tonight's developing stories, "To the Minute."
AARON BROWN, HOST, "NEWSNIGHT": Thank you, Cannie -- Connie. One voice at a time in this segment.
Here are the top stories. The so-called second American Taliban won't be allowed to meet with lawyers, at least not yet. A federal appeals court reversed a lower court ruling that Yasser Hamdi had the right to an attorney. The panel, however, did not rule on the broader question of whether the president has an absolute right to decide who is an unlawful combatant, and therefore who is entitled to an attorney and who is not.
A federal judge says the journalist who interviewed other American accused of fighting for the Taliban must testify. Robert Pelton's motion to block a subpoena rejected today. Pelton was working for CNN when he interviewed John Walker Lindh in Afghanistan. This is an important piece of tape in the government's case.
The sea of red ink for the federal government grows deeper. Latest projected budget deficit from the White House, $160 billion, up from $106 billion. President Bush blames the war on terrorism, the recession and sharply lower tax receipts from capital gains for the worsening deficit.
In Mexico, a tense standoff drags on as irate farmers threaten to kill a dozen hostages. The farmers trying to keep the government in Mexico from seizing their land to build a new airport. Hundreds have armed themselves, as you saw, with machetes, and vow to spark uprisings across the country.
And tonight on "NEWSNIGHT", very serious stuff here. We go searching for alien fish. Someone has to do this and who better than "NEWSNIGHT"? I'm not kidding about this. The northern -- I may wish I was, though. The northern snakehead, a native of China, found in a Maryland pond. How did that happen? And many, many more have turned up in pet stores.
We intend to get to the very bottom of this story. That and all the other important things that went on today, on "NEWSNIGHT", CNN tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern time.
Connie, top that.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Aaron, it's obvious. You know, we've always been told you can dig your way to China. At least, that's what I was told when I was a kid, BROWN: There you go.
CHUNG: So somebody dug his or her way to China, and that's how the fish showed up in Maryland. Easy.
BROWN: Well, now you've explained the whole story. Why will people watch? Jeez, Connie.
See you next week.
CHUNG: All right. Bye.
Still ahead, every driver's nightmare. You have to see this. Trapped in your car as it dangles over the edge. It's unbelievable.
ANNOUNCER: Next -- inches from disaster. The woman trapped in this wreck saved in an heroic aerial rescue. The lucky survivor and her rescuer when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Every year, some 40,000 Americans die in car crashes. If you took a freeze frame of one of those crashes, it might look like this. But this moment in time stretched out for 45 minutes, as a single bolt on the car's underside a fraction of an inch wide snagged on the bridge railing and turned a potentially deadly plunge into an agonizing, nailbiting ordeal. That bolt was all that kept this SUV and driver Christine McMichael from falling 20 feet to the highway below. While rescuers tried as fast as they could to rescue her without jarring the SUV into a deadly plunge.
They succeeded, and tonight, Christine McMichael joins me from New York. And two of her rescuers, Sanford, Florida Fire Department Lieutenant George Seda and firefighter Gary Holton (ph) join me from Daytona. Thank you so much, all of you, for being with us.
Christine, let's start with you. Tell us what happened and how you ended up dangling from that precarious position?
CHRISTINE MCMICHAEL, TRAPPED IN DANGLING SUV FOR 45 MINUTES: I was just driving down I-4 in the left hand lane, just going with traffic. And right when I got to the top of the bridge, the car in front of me was -- it seemed like it was at a dead stop. And I hit the brakes. And when I did, the car veered to the right and then back to the left really hard and I hit the guardrail. And next thing I know, I was looking down at the concrete.
CHUNG: And when you looked down at the concrete, did you realize that you were hanging by a thread?
MCMICHAEL: I really couldn't tell how I was hanging in the vehicle. I just -- I knew that I was hanging in the air, but I just wasn't sure how bad it was.
CHUNG: But you had the wherewithal to get your cell phone and call your husband, which I think is incredible. MCMICHAEL: Well, my purse was in the passenger's side. And the way the vehicle fell, my purse fell in my lap. And so, I immediately grabbed the cell phone and called my husband because I didn't know if I was going to fall. I was -- I said, honey, please come and get me. I'm dangling from the I-4 bridge.
CHUNG: What did he say to you, Christine?
MCMICHAEL: He said, what. And I said, I've just been in a car accident. I'm dangling from the I-4 bridge. And he asked if I called 911. And I said, no, I'm sure everybody else driving on I-4 called. And he said, well, I'm going to call 911 and I'll call you back.
CHUNG: All right. Let's listen to that 911 tape because it's quite, quite extraordinary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a car -- oh my God -- it's hanging over the -- over the overpass.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Exit 46.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exit 51, the old one, the Mount Dora exit.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: OK. That's 46. Anybody in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's hanging, it's hanging on the edge. Oh my God.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: Is anybody in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They've got to stop the traffic underneath, underneath Mount Dora. If this things fall, it will fall on somebody.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: OK. What kind of car is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a SUV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Christine, did you, at any point, did you actually think you were going to die?
MCMICHAEL: When the accident first happened, I absolutely did think I was going to die. I just remember looking at the concrete, thinking I am going to fall. And that's one reason why I wanted to call my husband. I thought that might be the last time I got to talk to him.
CHUNG: Were you able to tell him, as you thought about it, were you able to tell him you loved him and all of that?
MCMICHAEL: Oh, yes. I told him that I loved him and he asked me if I wanted him to stay on the phone. But at that time, I was still holding onto the steering wheel because I didn't want to make any movements at all whatsoever. So I told him I couldn't talk any more. I had to hold on to the steering wheel.
CHUNG: OK. All right, let's go to George. George, it was such an extraordinary, harrowing call that you received. Tell us how the rescue began.
LT. GEORGE SEDA, SANFORD, FLORIDA FIRE DEPARTMENT: When we first got there, the tow truck had already gotten into the framework and tied her off. And then, basically, we just had to go up and get her out.
CHUNG: Did you think you would be able to save her?
SEDA: Once we had the tow truck tie her down, yes, we were able to get to her and actually pull her out. Yes.
CHUNG: Gary, how did -- yes, go ahead.
GARY HOLTON (ph), FIREFIGHTER: It was scary for a little while there, yes.
CHUNG: Gary, how did the rescue unfold? Tell us.
HOLTON: Well, when we got on scene, Karen Matthews (ph), who was the engineer, her and I set the tower up as Lieutenant Seda along with the battalion chiefs kind of got a visual on how we should do it. And after Karen Matthews and I got a truck set up, I assisted with Lieutenant Seda on taking the harnesses and all the equipment to the bucket. And then we went from there around to the vehicle.
CHUNG: And how did you get ahold of Christine? Were you able to talk to her?
HOLTON: I wasn't. But Lieutenant Seda had a visual and contact with her.
CHUNG: Lieutenant Seda, were you able to talk to her, and what did you tell her?
SEDA: Yes. The first thing we actually did was just to, you know, help keep her calm. And, actually, she did a really good job at staying calm. And then we told her that we were going to actually -- I brought some webbing, got down in there and wrapped it around her and asked her -- because she was OK, there was really nothing wrong with her. She told me she was fine and there was nothing wrong, and, basically, just helped her get up and grabbed her and put her actually into the truck.
CHUNG: And, Christine, what did you do when you knew you were safe? Oh, my goodness, I can see you crying.
MCMICHAEL: Yes, that's exactly what I did. I lost it. As soon as I knew I was on safe ground, that's when everything just hit me and I lost it all.
CHUNG: Right. And I know your husband was there, wasn't he? He was watching. MCMICHAEL: Yes. I actually saw him -- he -- the fireman let him -- the road below, the fireman brought him down there and I could see him when I was still hanging from the bridge, which was a nice feeling to know he was there waiting.
CHUNG: And I know you hugged everyone, all of your rescuers, when you got there.
MCMICHAEL: Yes. I was very thankful. I'm very thankful because also, Connie, there was a tow truck that was just four or five cars behind me and they pulled over immediately and strapped the truck off, which I wasn't aware of until later on that evening when I had gotten home from the accident.
CHUNG: Have you been able to talk to Gary and George since the rescue? In other words, have you had an opportunity?
MCMICHAEL: No, not since the rescue, just that night I talked to them. Hi, guys. How are you?
HOLTON: Hey.
MCMICHAEL: Thanks again. I really appreciate it.
HOLTON: You're welcome.
SEDA: You're quite welcome. You're a very lucky girl.
MCMICHAEL: Yes, I am. I agree. Thank you. Thanks to you.
CHUNG: Gentlemen, have you ever seen anything like this or been involved in anything like this?
SEDA: Nothing quite like this, no. I've seen a lot of bad wrecks and stuff but nothing quite like this, to where it was just dangling like it was.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much for being with us. Christine, so glad you're fine.
MCMICHAEL: Thank you.
CHUNG: And I'm sure your husband is thrilled. How is he doing?
MCMICHAEL: He's doing good. He's doing really good. He's holding up very well.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much, Christine McMichael, firefighters George Seda and Gary Holton.
When we come back, we are about to break some rules. You have to watch this.
ANNOUNCER: Next, from Michael Ovitz to Michael Jackson, from making CEOs do time to honoring a man who has done his time. Tonight, a look at the week like you've never before seen when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Something a little different tonight. Maybe a lot different. We've asked Brian Unger, former correspondent for "The Daily Show," to join us for his take on the news of the week. And this week -- Brian.
BRIAN UNGER, FORMER CORRESPONDENT, "DAILY SHOW": How are you?
CHUNG: I'm great. How about you?
UNGER: You know, I was a little nervous coming over here.
CHUNG: Why?
UNGER: Well, I knocked off a liquor store back in '85, I never got caught for it, and I thought I'd get nailed in the CNN parking lot.
CHUNG: I don't think so. I don't think so.
UNGER: Wow, what a week we've had.
CHUNG: Yeah, I know.
UNGER: It's been something. We've all seen the tape of the man coming down hard on people, apparently just because they're "different." But in this case, racial profiling of rich white guys in suits shows the president will do whatever it takes to stop corporate crime.
Connie, it's called corporate malfeasance. To the average investor it's like being smacked with a stick, knocked down in the parking lot at Kroger's while a junkie goes through your wallet. So, the president told corporate evil doers, he's going open a can of whoop ass on them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They made a mistake, they attacked a great nation, and this nation will do whatever it takes to defend freedom and to bring people to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNGER: OK. That was Bush talking about terrorists.
CHUNG: Thank you, I didn't know that.
UNGER: I know. But just imagine, if you will, from a president who campaigned on how safe it is to invest our Social Security pensions in the stock market, just how harsh the penalties will be for corporate crooks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: If an executive is guilty of outright fraud, resignation is not enough. Only a ban on serving at the top of another company will protect other shareholders and employees.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNGER: Wow. It's scary. That's downright scary. These dirty Harry tactics could reduce all crime in America, cracking down, for instance, on violent thugs who rob convenience stores by forcing them not just to resign from armed robbery, but also banning them from ever serving as a district manager for 7-11 for the rest of their lives. Harsh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Tougher laws and stricter requirements will help. It will help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNGER: Who can disagree? That's why the president called on Congress to pass new laws, Connie, against corporate crime. You know, Congress could go as far as to pass the law like the already existing Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Like that law, this hypothetical new law could re-outlaw -- and this off the top of my head now -- "to scheme, defraud, omit material facts, engage in any act, practice, or deceit upon any person" -- blah, blah, blah.
Now, a new law, identical to the old law on the books for 68 years could really do some good here.
But Connie, it wasn't just rich white guys. They weren't the only ones in the news. Here in Los Angeles, they're still buzzing about former super-agent Mike Ovitz, once the most powerful man in Hollywood. He claimed he was the target of a hit by rich white gay guys in suits.
CHUNG: No, he didn't say that.
UNGER: He labeled them, Connie, "the gay Mafia." Ovitz apologized for using the term "gay Mafia," but why the sudden retraction? Well, Connie, someone got to him. Yeah. And when the gay Mafia makes you an offer you can't refuse, they deliver -- as soon as they get back from Fire Island.
CHUNG: You're going to be in big trouble, Brian.
UNGER: Well, we all are. The gay Mafia hasn't seen this kind of bloodshed since Joan Collins smacked Linda Evans on "Dynasty."
Now, on the positive side this week...
CHUNG: Yes.
UNGER: ... we saw the president reward the long, hard struggle for equality, presenting the Medal of Freedom to Nelson Mandela and Mr. Fred Rogers.
CHUNG: No!
UNGER: Yeah. Two men, two very different neighborhoods. Both stood up to repressive puppet regimes, P.W. Botha and King Friday the 13th. Both men, Mandela and Rogers, endured years of imprisonment. Mandela, 27 years in the South African jail; Rogers 28 years on PBS. And thanks, Larry.
And finally, you know...
CHUNG: Larry King is right over there.
UNGER: Could you keep it down? Schneider, you too.
And finally, another civil rights soldier on the front lines. Michael Jackson. Accusing the entire music industry of racism. In a fitting homage to Rosa Parks, who was forced to ride in the back of a bus, Jackson showed how black musicians today are forced to rent the bus and ride around on top with an entourage.
Connie, when will we ever learn? You know?
CHUNG: I don't know. But you know what, I think you're in big trouble, or you got me in big trouble. But...
UNGER: Did I? That's why I'm here.
CHUNG: Isn't it your birthday? So it's OK.
UNGER: I'm 25 today.
CHUNG: You are not.
UNGER: I am 25 years old.
CHUNG: You are not.
UNGER: I thank you for bringing that up. It feels good to finally get to 25.
CHUNG: How old are you?
UNGER: Thirty. Thirty. I am the age I moved to L.A. You stay that age forever. That's the whole thing about show business.
CHUNG: So you're not even -- you're not 30? You're 30- something?
UNGER: Connie, my lawyer will answer these questions when it's really appropriate.
CHUNG: You're such a girl.
UNGER: Ow!
CHUNG: We'll be back in just a moment. Sorry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: And that's our program for tonight. Monday, the trial of the man accused in the Yosemite National Park murders begins. We'll talk with the victims' family.
Plus, airlines and obese passengers.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," who was your favorite duke of Hazzard? If you said Bo, you're in luck. Larry has "Dukes of Hazzard" star John Schneider with a secret he's never told before. And they're right over there on the other side of the studio.
What's the secret?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Stick around and find out!
CHUNG: All right. Larry says stay around and find out.
Thank you for joining us, and for all of us at CNN, particularly everybody here in Los Angeles, thanks for welcoming me, and have a good weekend.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
