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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Taliban-American Pleads Guilty; Airline Passengers Forced Off Plane Because of Size

Aired July 15, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight, the Taliban-American pleads guilty. But does the punishment fit the crime?

ANNOUNCER: The Taliban-American, John Walker Lindh, admits his guilt and is going to prison. But was the sentence enough? Tonight, the CIA agent's parents who blame Walker for the death of their son.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Americans will not tolerate traitors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus, we'll hear from the man who cut the deal and find out was it fair?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We stand strongly behind the original indictments. And, again, if we were to have gone to trial, we're confident that we would have prevailed on all counts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Are you safe at your national parks? The man who confessed to killing three women at Yosemite finally goes to trial. Tonight, the victims' family want justice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were sexually abused, tortured, murdered, for no good reason.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm glad that they decided to go for the death penalty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Kicked off an airplane because they're too big and forced to take a 30-hour bus ride home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I had no choice. We had to buy two more tickets or we couldn't get on the plane. It was totally humiliating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Another man says he was forced to sit next to an overweight passenger. They're all suing. What are your rights when you fly?

David Letterman, one of the funniest men in America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": We had the big Letterman Fourth of July family picnic. And listen to this, here's what happened. I doze off and one of my family members tries to have my cryogenically preserved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: But it's not all Dave. Tonight, we'll meet the man behind the monologue.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Is 20 years in prison justice for an American citizen who fought beside America's enemies? You can bet the Taliban would have had a different idea of justice. And in a moment, we'll talk with the family of the CIA officer who met with Taliban-American John Walker Lindh, and who was killed during the prisoner uprising shortly afterwards. On this story tonight is CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The deal had been struck about midnight, just some nine hours before John Walker Lindh came back to court. So secret that judge T.S. Ellis only found out shortly before he took the bench.

Lindh pleaded guilty to two charges: illegally providing help to the Taliban and a new one, carrying explosives, grenades, in the process. The government dropped all other charges, including conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals. Among them, CIA operative Mike Spann. Instead of possible life in prison, John Walker Lindh, the so- called Taliban-American, now faces 20 years. Prosecutors declared victory.

PAUL MCNULTY, U.S. ATTORNEY: This is a tough sentence. This is an appropriate punishment. And this case proves that the criminal justice system can be an effective tool in combating terrorism.

FRANKEN: The plea bargaining intensified last week after President Bush signed off on the negotiations. The deal was struck just as the two sides prepared to fight in court over whether alleged confessions and statements made by Walker Lindh on the battlefield could be used at trial. Defense attorneys knew they faced an uphill battle.

JAMES BROSNAHAN, LEAD ATTORNEY FOR WALKER LINDH: I think the factors included, among other things, the environment in which we're all living. But people are somewhat frightened. They are upset. It would have been difficult.

FRANKEN: Walker Lindh was asked by the judge, do you feel you're able to make decisions about your future today? In a quiet voice, the defendant said, yes. As he entered the courtroom, Lindh gave a broad smile to members of his family, but the mood was somber as he left.

NAOMI LINDH, WALKER LINDH'S SISTER: I love my brother very much. I just want him to come home, but I know it's not going to happen. But he's been so strong and we had to be strong for him.

FRANK LINDH, WALKER LINDH'S FATHER: Nelson Mandela served 26 years in prison. He's a good man like John. Someday I hope, I hope that the government will come around even further and say that even 20 years is wrong for this boy.

FRANKEN (on camera): Detractors say that the long time in prison, up to 20 years, is the only thing that John Walker Lindh has in common with Nelson Mandela. But now that the government has softened his approach, he will not spend the rest of his life behind bars.

Bob Franken, CNN, Alexandria, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Joining us now is the prosecutor who oversaw the deal, U.S. attorney Paul McNulty in Alexandria, Virginia. Thank you, Mr. McNulty, for being with us.

MCNULTY: It's nice to be here.

CHUNG: Clearly, there are some people who would say this was not a tough enough sentence. After all, the young man will be 41 if indeed he is sentenced to 20 years in prison, and he could start a new life.

MCNULTY: There are those who would see that the sentence should be stronger, and I understand that. And, certainly, our original indictment contained a number of charges that would have carried a longer sentence.

But at the same time, 20 years should not be looked at as a light sentence by any means. Twenty years is, in the federal system, one of the toughest sentences we have for some of the most serious offenders. In many states, 20 years is where a murder sentence begins. So, this is a long period of time, and this will be hard time. He will be in solitary confinement much of the time. And I don't think anybody should view this in any way as not being a strong and tough sentence.

CHUNG: Mr. McNulty, clearly, the parents of Michael Spann, who was killed during the uprising of Taliban prisoners, feel beyond disappointed. They really feel that this young man should have gotten a death sentence at least, at the very least.

MCNULTY: Yes, well, it's understandable that they are in great pain and that they have suffered severely as a result of that horrendous crime. This case was really not directly about Mr. Spann's death. The evidence we had in this case involving John Walker Lindh and Mr. Spann's death was not a direct connection. But he did participate in a conspiracy, and that conspiracy involved the murder of U.S. nationals, including Mr. Spann.

CHUNG: But one of the counts that was dismissed related to Mr. Spann's death, right?

MCNULTY: Well, that's the first count, and that's the conspiracy. It's a conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals. And that count involved proving that he -- we would have had to prove that he engaged in a conspiracy, or joined a conspiracy, that involved the killing of U.S. nationals. And that's a very general conspiracy which has involved thousands of victims, and Mr. Spann would have been one of those victims.

But the evidence regarding Walker Lindh's involvement in that is very -- it's very little. I mean, what we have is him at the camp where that uprising took place, but no direct evidence of his role in the killing of Michael Spann.

Nevertheless, that is a very serious crime. And this indictment did not include any death-eligible charges. It only included life imprisonment. And we felt the 20-year sentence, under these circumstances, and given the tremendous drain on resources that would have been involved in pulling military officials in for the trial and so forth, and the opportunity to get him to cooperate, all those things taken together made good sense for us to go forward at this time.

CHUNG: Mr. McNulty, Mike Spann's father said, what does this say to all of those who have died in the war on terrorism?

MCNULTY: Well, with all due respect to him, and I think we can say that this is a strong signal to those who would attack or take up arms against this country, John Walker Lindh was arrested only five months ago. And now, five months later, he stands convicted in a federal courtroom. He's going to spend the next 20 years in prison. And for the rest of his life, he will be watched and any action he takes after he's released could result in him being brought back into custody as an enemy combatant.

So, I think we send a message to those who engage in this kind of crime that the federal criminal justice system is very effective. And we also, I think, sent a message to the American people that we're prepared to use this tool and to use it well. CHUNG: Thank you, Paul McNulty, for joining us. And joining us now from Winfield, Alabama are the parents of Michael Spann, Johnny and Gail Spann. Thank you so much for joining us. Were you able to hear Mr. McNulty?

GAIL SPANN, MIKE SPANN'S MOTHER: Yes.

JOHNNY SPANN, MIKE SPANN'S FATHER: Yes, we did.

CHUNG: All right. Obviously, he understands that it might be a disappointment to you, this plea agreement. But he thinks it's a tough agreement. What do you think?

J. SPANN: You know, the thing I just heard him say was that John Walker Lindh did take up arms against Americans. And what happened to the old law that said if you take up arms against Americans, that you're a traitor? I don't understand that.

I think we're using two different rules here. The fact is, John Walker Lindh participated. He was a member of al Qaeda. He was a member of the Taliban. He was a member of an organization that sent their members to the United States of America, flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, into the Pentagon and ditched one in Pennsylvania, and all the other countless things that's been done.

And not only that, the Taliban has went through Afghanistan, left, shot children fatherless and motherless. They've raped and pilfered, and they're the worst people in the world, the al Qaeda, the deadliest people in the world. He's a member of those organizations. He surrendered with those -- he was fighting with them.

Why would you join an organization for religious reasons when they're out killing people? Why do you have a gun for? Why do you have a grenade for? If you're not going to be using it, why would you be in that organization? You know, this thing doesn't make sense at all.

CHUNG: All right, Mrs. Spann, how did you find out about this agreement, this plea agreement?

G. SPANN: We were called this morning about quarter until 9:00 and told what the agreement was.

CHUNG: Was it shortly before it was announced?

G. SPANN: Yes, it was.

CHUNG: The members of the Lindh family did have to something to say after the agreement was announced and I want to play this for you and have you tell me what you think.

G. SPANN: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

F. LINDH: John loves America, and we love America. God bless America.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This decision today will give him an opportunity to give back what he has so much to offer to the people and for the people, and the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Mr. Spann, your reaction?

J. SPANN: You know, this makes me sick every time I hear it. To start with, has he done anything to prove that he loves America or loves Americans? He's fought against us. He's helped kill Americans. And I just don't understand how much of an insult to our intelligence to the American people can this be. You keep talking about things like that, that -- it's hollow words.

CHUNG: Sir, it's very clear that this particular sentence could be shorter than 20 years. In fact, a judge will decide on October 4. Does that concern you as well?

J. SPANN: It certainly does, Miss Chung. The thing about it is, you know, even 20 years -- he was talking about the 20-year sentence a while ago and how tough it was. You know, the thing about 20 years is that I know, in fact, that our grandchildren, Alison (ph), Emily (ph), and Jake, and I will just almost bet you that all the children that were left from the World Trade Center attacks and the Pentagon and the people, the men and women that have died over there, their children that are still here, I'll bet you that all of them wish that they could say, you know, mom and dad, or mom or dad, is going to be back in 20 years.

But you know, for Mike, he's not going to be back. The people that have died over in Afghanistan fighting for freedom, fighting against terrorism, they're not going to be back. They're dead. They're gone. And for the person that is a member of the group that killed those people, a member of the group that killed Mike, a member of the group that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center, a 20- year sentence, I can't understand that.

I never did expect him to have the death sentence. I knew he wasn't going to get that. But with the charges that was against him and all the things that we saw on TV, it wasn't like we just made this stuff up. Me along with all the other Americans, we watched on TV as Mike stood in front of him and tried to talk to him, gave him every opportunity to say, hey, I'm an American, get me out of here. I shouldn't be here. I don't want to be here. He didn't do that. Mike would have died for him that day to get him out of that fort if he had just asked for help. He didn't. He didn't want to.

CHUNG: Mrs. Spann, one of the charges that was dropped related to your son's death. Did that hurt even more?

G. SPANN: Well, of course it did. All the charges that were dropped not only hurt us as Mike's parents, but I think it's hurt many parents across the United States of America that have sons and daughters that are protecting our country. And actions speak a lot louder than words.

Mike loved America. From just what he was doing for our country, what he's always done for our country. Look at John Walker's error. Did his actions say that he loved America? No, they did not. And it insults me for his father to say that or any of his family to say that. It's an insult on Mike's family.

CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it. And our hearts go out to you.

G. SPANN: Thank you.

J. SPANN: Thank you.

CHUNG: Johnny and Gail Spann.

Still ahead, the battle shaping up between airlines and overweight people. Keep your seat back in the upright position for this one when we return.

ANNOUNCER: Next, life or death? The confessed killer behind one of California's most brutal murders goes to trial. What punishment does the victim's family feel fits the crime? When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: A murder case that gripped the nation went to trial today. It all started with the mysterious disappearance of three tourists in the American southwest. When it ended, the nation learned what those three tourists endured in their final hours.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three women in the middle of life, suddenly missing.

CHUNG (voice-over): It was one of the most notorious crimes in California history. Three women disappeared while visiting Yosemite National Park in February 1999.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We realize they were sexually abused, tortured, murdered, for no good reason.

CHUNG: Mr. Carrington's daughter, 42-year-old Carole Sund, his grand-daughter, Julie, 15, and family friend Silvina Pelosso, 16, were savagely killed by a handyman. He had talked his way into their hotel room, saying he was there to fix a leak. Handyman Cary Stayner was questioned by the FBI, but he didn't become a suspect until another grisly murder occurred at Yosemite National Park six months later. Nature guide Joie Armstrong was beheaded. In an interview with the FBI, Stayner not only confessed to the Armstrong murder, but he gave detailed descriptions of the Sund-Pelosso murders too.

"I didn't see a man in the room, they were vulnerable and easy prey," Stayner told the FBI agents. Carole Sund was his first victim. Stayner said he nonchalantly strangled her to death and described it to agents as "performing a task." After wrapping her body in a sheet and placing it in the trunk of her rental car, he says, Stayner says he felt empowered. "I was in control for the first time in my life." He strangled Silvina Pelosso and also placed her body in the trunk. It was then that Stayner for hours sexually assaulted the other teen, Julie. In the morning, Stayner drove to a nearby vista point. He later told the FBI he didn't want to kill her. "I told her I wish I could keep her, but I can't. I pulled her head back. I told her I loved her and then I slashed her throat." He dumped her body in the brush and drove the car to a wooded area. He later returned with gasoline and set the car on fire.

Cary Stayner is already serving a life sentence for the murder of Joie Armstrong. But in the trial that started today, Stayner faces the death penalty. After three long years, the Carringtons are still looking for justice for the murders of their loved ones.

The Carringtons, Carole and Francis join me now from outside the San Jose courtroom.

Thank you so much for being with us. You are amazing, the two of you are so strong, you've been through so much. As you walked into that courtroom, three long years have gone by, was there a sense of relief?

CAROLE CARRINGTON, LOST GRAND-DAUGHTER & DAUGHTER TO KILLER: I think there really was a feeling that at last, we're getting to the final part of this crime, at least. And we can see the light at the end of the tunnel for this to get through someday. That's helpful.

CHUNG: Mr. Carrington?

FRANCIS CARRINGTON, LOST GRAND-DAUGHTER & DAUGHTER TO KILLER: Yes, it's partial, you know, relief. You never get rid of the feeling that you had for Carole and Julie. You love them deeply. Nothing can replace that. But this is something that we have to go through.

CHUNG: Carole and Francis, you have faced this confessed killer before. Was it any different in the courtroom today?

C. CARRINGTON: No, I don't think so. We've been to all of the hearings, both up in Mariposa County and here. And what we try to focus on is what's going on with the case, with the judge, the law, the lawyers. And today, of course, it had a lot to do with the selection of the jury and the opening statements. So it can be very interesting. And we just try to forget about Cary Stayner even being there, he's like a piece of furniture.

CHUNG: Carole, you did say one thing which was, I thought, quite extraordinary, you said, it's remarkable how normal he looks, and yet he is of course a monster.

C. CARRINGTON: Yes, that's true. He does look very normal. That's what most people have said. And I think that that is one thing we all need to be careful about, that monsters don't always look like monsters. And people need to be cautious no matter how gentle and kindly a person looks. They may have ulterior motives. That's one of the things the reward fund works on that we've been involved with.

CHUNG: Yes. I'm aware of this reward fund. Mr. Carrington, can you describe exactly what it does?

F. CARRINGTON: It puts up a reward for people that can't afford it, for a working man that loses a child, he has to keep on working. There's nobody to work with the press. Nobody to work with law enforcement to keep them up, interested in the case. These cases are done randomly. They have very little to go on. And sometimes within a week they become cold. So we post the reward and keep the press and law enforcement interested. And I think just in the last year or so was Chandra Levy, the Smart case, our case. People are becoming more knowledgeable on how more often these crimes are than what people thought originally.

C. CARRINGTON: We were quite surprised when this started. At one of the vigils and marches, we had several families who came and told about their missing loved ones. They were all from around the community where we were. We didn't know anything about them. So we just felt that we had to do something to help the people who don't have a high profile case like ours. And it has been so successful that this is the one really bright spot in our lives is that we have about 18 people in jail because of the help of the help of the reward fund.

CHUNG: That's incredible.

C. CARRINGTON: Six of those are convictions, either confessions or -- I mean, a guilty plea or convictions. And we just feel wonderful about that. That means those people are off the street.

CHUNG: You absolutely should. And it's so generous of you to spend your time and efforts on this. Mr. Carrington, I do have one question for you. You have both said that you want the jury to hear everything. But many of the details are just so gruesome. I don't know how the two of you have the courage to sit there and listen to it.

F. CARRINGTON: Well, if you'd been there today, you'd have noticed there was several boxes of Kleenex that we went through. The details, your description on your opening statement was very accurate. The details are horrible. There's nothing we can do or anybody else can do to help our children except try and stop other people, of course. And we realize this. But every time we hear it, it just breaks us up. We're human just like anybody else. We're not superman or superwoman.

CHUNG: And finally, one quick question. Cary Stayner, the defendant, has changed his plea to an insanity defense. Is there any doubt in your mind that he knew the difference between right and wrong?

C. CARRINGTON: I think when you hear -- when everyone hears the confession, when the jury hears the confession, they can make their own judgment about whether he was insane or not. My understanding of insanity is that you don't know what you're doing and you didn't know it was wrong. And by his actions, I would say, and I'm not a lawyer nor doctor nor psychiatrist, but I would say that he definitely knew what he was doing.

CHUNG: All right.

C. CARRINGTON: And he tried to cover it up.

CHUNG: Carole and Francis Carrington, thank you for sharing your story. And we will be watching with you.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Usually an airplane trip is a comfortable, calming, perhaps even luxurious experience. In your dreams, right? Reality is a little different, especially for some people you're about to meet. Because of their size, Andrea Kaiser and brother Martin McLaughlin were told that they had to buy an extra seat each or get home some other way.

With no money for the extra seats, they had to travel 1,100 miles home on a bus. They're joined by their attorney, Don Cokensburger (ph). Thank you all for being with us.

Now, you knew that you were going to take this trip. You knew that Southwest Airlines had a policy wanting you to buy an extra seat. And you asked, you called the airline ahead of time.

ANDREA KYSAR, TOLD SHE WAS TOO FAT TO FLY IN ONE SEAT: Three weeks ahead of time.

CHUNG: And you were told?

KYSAR: I was told that as long as we -- in the, you know, long story short, as long as we were sitting next to family members or loved ones that we wouldn't inconvenience, that it wasn't a problem, that we didn't need to buy an extra seat.

CHUNG: That you didn't have to buy a seat?

MARTIN MCLAUGHLIN, TOLD HE WAS TOO FAT TO FLY IN ONE SEAT: That we didn't have to buy an extra seat.

CHUNG: All right. So you go on your trip, but it's the return trip that causes a problem.

KYSAR: Right. We got all the way there and had my mother's memorial and everything. And when we were getting ready to get on the plane to go home...

CHUNG: To New Mexico.

KYSAR: ... we were told we had to buy two extra tickets.

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, we lost our brother in November and our mother in February. And at this memorial, we felt that this was some closure on a lot of sadness. And then this happens immediately thereafter. The very day after her memorial, this happens.

CHUNG: And where were you told, at the ticket counter or at the gate?

MCLAUGHLIN: We were told at the gate five minutes prior to boarding the plane. We had already gotten our tickets to go back and our boarding passes to go back.

CHUNG: And what exactly were you told?

MCLAUGHLIN: That we would need two extra seats. Because the flight was overbooked, we would need two extra seats.

CHUNG: And you didn't have the money to spend on two extra seats?

MCLAUGHLIN: No. These tickets were purchased by my mother's life insurance money. We have several other siblings. My father took that money and bought us all tickets to the memorial because he wanted us there, and the hotel stay while we were there over the weekend. He paid for it with her life insurance money.

CHUNG: Andrea, how did it all make you feel? I mean, there you were standing ready to board, and you were being told that you couldn't get on board because of the size of your body.

KYSAR: I have had so many people ask me that same question in the last few days of my life. And to every one of them, my mother, God rest her soul, has always taught me to be tough and not tell anyone that they've hurt me. So I've been trying to be -- you know, I'm tough. It didn't hurt me that bad. My feelings are fine. I have self-esteem.

But, you know, it's like -- I felt like I was in grade school again, and, you know, they were saying you can't be on our team, you can't get on our plane, you're too fat. And it just -- it was humiliating. And then I cried and my daughter saw me cry and she cried and my brother cried. It was just -- it was a really rotten way to handle it. They could have handled it a much better way.

CHUNG: So, you ended up going on a bus?

KYSAR: Mm-hmm.

CHUNG: You stayed in a hotel?

KYSAR: Thirty-one hours.

CHUNG: You stayed in a motel?

MCLAUGHLIN: We had to find an inexpensive hotel there in Indianapolis because the first bus we could get out, and it was the express bus that was 31 hours, was at 5:00 the next afternoon. So when we checked out of the motel, we had to go straight to the bus station and we sat there for five and a half hours before we could even get on the bus.

CHUNG: Could somebody get her a Kleenex? Thank you so much.

Thank you. So, you ended up taking the bus. You would not have had a problem, correct, buying an extra seat if you could have?

KYSAR: Three weeks beforehand when we called, we were prepared to buy two more tickets. I had already spoken to my father about borrowing the money from him so that we could get two more tickets in case we needed them. And so we were ready for it.

Well, after she said we didn't need them, I told my father to go ahead and take that money and hold it so that all of us, his kids -- we're all just working class, you know -- and I said hold it and give us to us all as spending money while we're there with the family. And so, that's what he did.

CHUNG: We asked Southwest to comment, but Southwest would not provide a representative to talk to us, but did release this statement: "This was a tough situation and our hearts go out to this family, but we attempted to work with them and offered them a full refund, which they accepted, and a flight home that same night, which they declined." What did you want...

MCLAUGHLIN: Absolutely not, Connie.

CHUNG: Not true?

MCLAUGHLIN: Not true. The vice president of public relations offered us two options. And these were the two options. One, he would reinstate the credit card that these tickets were bought on for the return leg home that they had just refunded three hours prior, and that we would buy two more tickets on his airplane. If the airplane wasn't full, then he would refund those two additional tickets.

CHUNG: I see.

MCLAUGHLIN: But we were going to pay for our ride home. Our second option was we find our own way, and then and only then would they refund the money.

CHUNG: All right. Stay with me here for a moment because I want to bring in someone who's sort of been on the other side of this story. Phil Shafer, who joins us from Cleveland.

Now, Mr. Shafer, what is your story? You had gotten on a plane and you were sitting next to someone you felt was overweight. What was your concern?

PHIL SHAFER, CLEVELAND, OHIO: I couldn't sit down in the seat. He was a third or a half into my seat, he was over as far as he could get to the window. And the stewardess, flight attendant, had just put a large extra seat belt on him. And I was trying to find an empty seat to go to so that I didn't have to have a scene because it was right after 9/11 and a scene on an airplane was not what I wanted to get into. Three people came on, sat down in the seat. So, my strategy failed. And so I had to sit down in what seat was left. He had already put the armrest up in the middle because he couldn't even sit down without having that out of the way. So I, for two hours, was basically married to this gentleman and got to Cincinnati and wrote Delta Airlines and went from there.

CHUNG: Now, you filed a lawsuit. Why?

SHAFER: I got no meaningful response back from Delta Airlines. And so, rather than drop it, I filed a lawsuit on a contract theory that I did not get what I paid for, namely, a seat.

CHUNG: Mr. Shafer, obviously you have a problem with people who are overweight. And, let's face it, these people do have problems on a daily basis and are treated differently. Why are you filing a lawsuit, making such, as some people would say, a mountain out of a molehill?

SHAFER: No. 1, I'm overweight by 20 pounds. No. 2, I applaud these two people that you've just had on your program. They fulfilled their individual responsibilities that a lot of people maybe don't do today. They called the airport up and tried to do the right thing.

There's corporate responsibilities to go along with the individual responsibilities on these issues. And although they've had -- the airlines have had protocol and policy, they haven't enforced them. It's not fair for people to impact other people, whether you're smoking. We solved that problem about 10 years ago and smoking is no longer allowed so that it doesn't impact on airlines and airplanes to our detriment. So we have to solve this problem. And it's something that can be done. They just have to come to grips with it.

CHUNG: All right. Phil Shafer, I need to provide our viewers with Delta Airlines' response. They would not allow anyone to come on and talk to us, but Delta does say it does not require overweight passengers to pay for an extra seat. Delta will try to move passengers. Delta will switch flights at no additional cost. So, thank you so much for being with us.

You are planning a lawsuit. Mr. Cokensburger (ph), I'm so sorry we weren't able to get to you. But you are planning a lawsuit?

MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.

CHUNG: Thank you, Phil Shafer. And thank you for being with us.

We'll be back in just a moment.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, think this is funny?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW")

LETTERMAN: It's always a big time when President Bush is in the city. He was in New York City this afternoon. He was down on Wall Street, and he was giving a speech imploring people to crack down on accounting fraud, lashing out, attacking accounting fraud. And I'm thinking, well, wait a minute, accounting fraud? Isn't that how he got elected?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Meet the man behind the monologue when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW")

LETTERMAN: I'm glad you're in a good mood. You've been following the stock market? Whoa. Today, today, like I need to tell you, the stock market hit a five-year low. Thanks a lot, Martha.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: It's all in the delivery, isn't it? Every night David Letterman has a simple but incredibly difficult job: be funny. Not just any funny. Usually it has to be about stuff that everyone's talking about, but it also has to be smart. How does he do it? He does it with the help of chief monologue writer Bill Scheft, who joins me to talk about late night comedy and his new novel called "The Ringer" and other funny stuff.

Bill, thank you for being with us.

BILL SCHEFT, LETTERMAN'S CHIEF MONLOGUE WRITER: Thanks for having me. But there must be some mistake. I thought I was coming on here to talk about why I had my father frozen.

CHUNG: No, no, no. That's another program, right. What is that on your hand?

SCHEFT: This is -- well, I'm a writer, I'm always writing. And I wrote down the things that I wanted to remember to talk to you about.

CHUNG: Do you always do that?

SCHEFT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) association together.

CHUNG: Do you always do that?

SCHEFT: I used to when I was a stand-up comic. And one time I was doing something -- I did every show except the ones that could help your career. And I was on some show and I did a joke, and I put my hands up like this, and people thought I was hemorrhaging. It's a big finish, though.

CHUNG: Tell me how you got the job as chief monologue writer.

SCHEFT: Well, this is interesting. Dave, of course, does a lot of charity work. And I was part of his program that takes teenage runaways off the streets and turns them into monologue writers. CHUNG: I don't think so. I don't think so. You went to Harvard.

SCHEFT: That's right.

CHUNG: You were trying to do stand-up yourself. And you did that for a long time but you couldn't get a break.

SCHEFT: Right, because...

CHUNG: Gosh darn it, you couldn't get a break.

SCHEFT: That's right. Because when I was 18, I decided to write for the "Harvard Crimson" rather than the "Lampoon." And I became the only guy that couldn't get a job writing comedy on television.

CHUNG: All right. So you submitted jokes to Letterman?

SCHEFT: Six submissions. And I finally got hired -- lucky enough to get hired. And it was funny because he did jokes of mine before I got hired, which was where the first joke I ever wrote, just to give you an idea how long...

CHUNG: He didn't steal them?

SCHEFT: No, no, no, I was submitting them. And I was actually paid for them. In those days we were, of course, paid in beef, but I was paid nonetheless. And the first show he ever did of mine was Elizabeth Taylor had just gotten married to Larry Fortensky. So you know how long ago this was. And she had gotten married the day before. And the first joke of mine he did was, well, Elizabeth Taylor and Larry Fortensky had their first fight, it was over whether or not he should unpack. And it was that start that rocketed me...

CHUNG: Yes!

SCHEFT: ... to where I am right now.

CHUNG: OK, let's listen to one of these jokes which you wrote.

SCHEFT: I hope so.

CHUNG: Yes. OK. Here's David Letterman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW")

LETTERMAN: I heard this rumor that al Qaeda is merging with Hamas. I got that tip from Martha Stewart.

And it's always a big time when President Bush is in the city. He was in New York City this afternoon. He was down on Wall Street. And he was giving a speech imploring people to crack down on accounting fraud, lashing out, attacking accounting fraud. And I'm thinking, well, wait a minute, accounting fraud, isn't that how he got elected?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHEFT: Actually, that joke was written by Katherine Harris. So we get them from all over. They come in over the fax.

CHUNG: Tell me one secret about David Letterman that I don't know.

SCHEFT: Well, first of all, this is incredible misconception that he hates show tunes. I don't know where that came from. The man loves show tunes, and cannot stop singing.

CHUNG: And that's why he keeps singing "Cats."

SCHEFT: That's right. That's right. That's right.

CHUNG: Were you the one who started that?

SCHEFT: No. No.

CHUNG: No. OK.

SCHEFT: That, once again, that was Katherine Harris.

CHUNG: All right. I will take a minute to talk about the book.

SCHEFT: Please do.

CHUNG: How is that? Is it the great American novel?

SCHEFT: No. Well, it's the great American novel if the great American is a 75-year-old delirious Jewish man, and his 35-year-old softball playing nephew. In that sense it's the great American novel. But I wrote it...

CHUNG: This isn't all about Dave, is it?

SCHEFT: No, no. no. if you think of Dave as a 75-year-old delirious Jewish man, which I do, then he's in the book.

CHUNG: And you're not a 75-year-old delirious Jewish man?

SCHEFT: No, but I was a pretty good softball player in my day. But then of course the talkies came in.

CHUNG: All right. Exactly. Well, tell me, one quick question in like five seconds. How do you -- can you teach someone to tell a good joke?

SCHEFT: I think you can teach somebody to write a joke. But I don't think you can -- I think that it just takes repetition. But the writing of a joke, I just find it's a lot of just free association. Like for instance, if you take someone like Michael Jackson, there's a lot of things you can free associate off Michael Jackson. One of them is he's had a lot of plastic surgery, he's had a lot of nose jobs. My theory about Michael Jackson, though, is I feel the same way about that as I feel about "Godfather" movies, they should have stopped at two.

CHUNG: Bill, thank you.

SCHEFT: Thanks for having me, Connie, I appreciate it.

CHUNG: OK. Good luck. And you're working for "Sports Illustrated" as well?

SCHEFT: Yes. I'm the new columnist for "Sports Illustrated."

CHUNG: Terrific. OK. Bill Scheft. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: And that's our program for tonight. Tomorrow, the story of the young girl who met a man on the Internet and then it turned tragic. And the undercover cop who catches Internet predators. For a daily e-mail preview of our program, log on to CNN.com/Connie.

And coming up on LARRY KING LIVE, the latest on the Danielle van Dame murder trial. I'm Connie Chung. Thank you for joining us, and for all of us at CNN, good night.

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