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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Israeli Missile Strike Kills Hamas Leader; What Penalty Will Avila Face if Convicted?; How Should Investors React in the Current Market?
Aired July 22, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
An Israeli missile strike kills a Hamas leader.
Plus, the death of a little girl. Will the killer pay with his life?
ANNOUNCER: This man, charged with murdering Samantha Runnion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL CARONA, SHERIFF, ORANGE COUNTY, CA: At the level of 100 percent, we have the right man that committed this crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Now the frantic search to see if there were others.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY RACKAUCKAS, ORANGE COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Anyone who commits an act like this in Orange County will either die in prison of natural causes, or will be executed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Plus, new details on why this tragedy might have been averted.
Hold the phone, WorldCom's bankrupt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SIDGMORE, PRESIDENT & CEO, WORLDCOM: We fought hard and frantically to avoid this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The largest filing in U.S. corporate history.
And the markets continue to tank. What's an investor to do? A family torn apart, an American mother converts to Islam and wanted to take her son to the Middle East. Tonight, a crisis of faith that ignited an international custody battle.
Man overboard. Knocked off his boat and left treading water in the Atlantic for 19 hours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I just kept swimming for lights, objects that I knew. It's just the current would not allow me to get close to anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight he tells his story of survival.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening. We begin with some breaking news in the Middle East, where Israel has launched a deadly strike against the militant group Hamas.
CNN's Matthew Chance has the latest from Jerusalem.
Matthew, what's happened?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This region, plunged into violence and bloodshed, this time with the Israeli warplanes striking at what appears to have been a target, a Hamas target, inside of Gaza City.
A statement from the Israeli defense forces, the Israeli Army, say they attacked a terror target in the Gaza Strip.
(AUDIO GAP)
CHANCE: ... senior Hamas leader Sheikh Salah Shehadeh. He's the head of the Hamas military wing, the Izzadine el-Qassam Brigade; the brigade responsible for carrying out Hamas's suicide attacks and shootings against Israeli civilians.
Now, of course, in this confusion, in this chaos, you can see that Palestinian officials -- Palestinian sources on the ground telling us at least 10 people have been killed in the airstrike, and as many as 150 others injured in that chaos.
Understandably, a great deal of confusion about getting information through to us. Information not just for us, but also for the Palestinians on the ground, and also for the Israeli military as well. And that might be why we're seeing a difference of opinion emerging as to the state of the state of health of Sheikh Salah Shehadeh.
Palestinian officials are now saying that his body has not been found -- has not been located in the rubble of his house. They're confirming that his wife and his three children have been killed.
The Israeli Army, though, have issued a statement saying that they are confident that this senior Hamas figure has been killed. Anyone who denies that, they say, is simply trying to create a myth around this figure, a myth of invulnerability.
So still a question mark lying over exactly who was -- exactly what's happened in this incident.
Certainly what we do know, though, at least 10 dead, at least 150 others injured -- Connie.
CHUNG: Matthew, what has been the response from the Palestinians, because we were watching tape of demonstration.
CHANCE: (AUDIO GAP) ... been demonstrations in the streets of Gaza, spontaneous demonstrations from Hamas supporters calling for revenge attacks against the Israelis for carrying out this strike against the house of this very senior Hamas leader. He's a very respected figure in the community, a man who commands a great deal of support among ordinary Palestinians.
Just to give you an indication of just how dire the repercussions may be, there was another assassination, essentially, carried out by the Israelis back in 1996 of the person who previously occupied the position as the leader of the Hamas military wing. In response to that, at least 63 Israelis were killed in a spate of revenge suicide attacks, Connie.
CHUNG: All right, Matthew Chance in Jerusalem, thank you.
In California today, prosecutors laid out a sickening array of charges against Alejandro Avila, the accused killer of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion. Taken together, the charges pave the way for seeking the death penalty, if prosecutors choose to do so. Avila did not appear in court in person, but he was able to hear the charges against him.
On the story tonight, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Is your true name Alejandro Avila?
ALEJANDRO AVILA, CHARGED WITH KILLING SAMANTHA RUNNION: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: Is it spelled A-V-I-L-A?
AVILA: Yes.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soft-spoken and with one-word answers, Alejandro Avila's first court appearance by video remote. The special hook-up kept the man accused of killing Samantha Runnion in the Orange County Jail as the judge read the four- count indictment. UNIDENTIFIED JUDGE: On count one, you're charged with kidnapping; that's a felony. Count two, you are charged with forcible lewd conduct upon a child under the age of 14; that's filed as a felony. Count three is identical. You're charged with forcible lewd act upon a child under 14; that's also filed as a felony. In count four, you are charged with murder.
MATTINGLY: According to the indictment, the case carries special circumstances. In other words, murder during a kidnapping, and murder in connection with sexual assault. Both allow prosecutors to pursue the death penalty.
RACKAUCKAS: Anyone who commits an act like this in Orange County will either die in prison of natural causes, or will be executed.
MATTINGLY: But the question of guilty or not guilty remains unresolved for now by Avila, who also remains in jail without bond, alone in a cell for his own protection.
His attorney, appealing for a month's delay in the case because of the abundance of evidence. The judge, however, siding with prosecutors, delaying only until August 9.
(on camera): If Avila pleads not guilty and this case does eventually go to trial, authorities are promising what they call "an incredible story": details of how well-timed public tips led investigators to the man they now say they are 100 percent certain is the killer of Samantha Runnion.
David Mattingly, CNN, Orange County, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Alejandro Avila didn't have much to say during today's hearing. But we are beginning to learn more about the man charged with the crime that has horrified the nation.
Specifically, just last year a jury found him not guilty on charges he molested two girls. The case was prosecuted in Riverside County, and Chief Deputy District Attorney Michael Soccio joins us now from Riverside.
Thank you so much for being with us.
Now, two years ago he was prosecuted. And the question is, what exactly were the charges and the result?
MICHAEL SOCCIO, CHIEF DEP. DIST. ATTY., RIVERSIDE COUNTY, CA: Mr. Avila was charged with five counts. Two of them were with lewd conduct against a child under 14 with -- by either force or duress, one was lewd conduct with a child under 14 with another victim. There was a charge of making a terrorist threat against the mother of one of those children. And then a final charge, a fifth charge, of trying to dissuade a witness.
The case went to the jury in January of 2001. One of our sack of sexual assault prosecutors, Paul Dickerson (ph), tried the case to a jury. The jury came back not guilty.
CHUNG: Now I was told by sources that the D.A. told the victims' families that, indeed, the evidence against him was overwhelming; that it was an open and shut case. What happened?
SOCCIO: Well, first of all, I can't comment as to what happened. But I'll come back to that in a second.
More importantly, in every case that we file, we believe that the evidence is sufficient to convict the person charged, especially in such a horrific crime. If the prosecutor told the family that it was an open and shut case, it's because he truly believed that the evidence was so overwhelming that a verdict should have come back toward guilt.
What happens in a jury trial is anybody's guess sometimes. We convict over 98 percent of the people we charge with child abuse or child sexual abuse cases here in Riverside County. And it's a question that only the jurors can answer as to why they didn't believe the victims in this particular case; or if they believed them, why they didn't accept them at their word enough to come back with findings of guilt.
CHUNG: Well, with the strength of the case and with your track record, what was the prosecutor's reaction when he got the acquittal?
SOCCIO: Stunned. Worried. Whenever a prosecutor gets a not guilty verdict -- again, which is rare, but it does happen -- there's disbelief. It's always a questioning process as to what went wrong. And especially when we believe that the person is guilty of a horrendous crime, one that can hurt the public, our real concern is for the safety of the public and for the impact on the victims.
Take a look at the two young girls in our case, the one here in Riverside County. Both of those young ladies testified in trial and then had to live with the knowledge that the person they alleged violated them went free.
It's a very tough situation for everyone involved, including our victim witness people, detectives and the prosecutor.
CHUNG: Did the people in your office recognize Avila from the composite drawing?
SOCCIO: Well, I can't answer that for sure, Connie. I know that Mr. Dickerson (ph), the prosecutor, was able to draw a fairly quick conclusion once some of the facts became apparent to us. But I don't know if he recognized him from the composite.
CHUNG: What are you saying? You're saying he was able to draw a fairly good conclusion, but are you saying that he immediately had some suspicions or no?
SOCCIO: I don't believe so. If he had, he would have told law enforcement.
CHUNG: All right. Do you think that the judicial system failed Samantha?
SOCCIO: Yes, it's a question that I've thought a lot about the last two days. I don't know that the judicial system failed Samantha. I don't know that the judicial system failed. It probably didn't. Remember that the system is set up for two things. One is to make sure that people who are guilty are punished. But it's also set up to protect anyone charged with a crime.
And sometimes that means that even though there's evidence against an accused, that they're going to go free depending on what a particular jury believes. It's frustrating. It's not what we as prosecutors think is the right outcome all the time. Well, it's never when there's an acquittal, but the point is I don't know that the system necessarily fails.
CHUNG: All right. Michael Soccio, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
What is known about Avila's past raises some questions about his future and the future of the case against him. Joining me now is CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, thank you for coming, as always.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Connie.
CHUNG: What is the significance of today's court hearing? Was it intended to be an arraignment, but, in fact, Avila did not plead?
TOOBIN: Right. The most important two words that were said in court today were special circumstances. He was charged with murder with special circumstances. That means he is eligible for the death penalty. If the prosecutors choose to go forward and seek the death penalty, they have laid the groundwork with these charges so that they can do that.
CHUNG: Is it likely, do you think, that the prosecutor will go for the death penalty?
TOOBIN: You know, if you are a prosecutor who believes in the death penalty, it's hard to imagine a better case for it than this one, given the magnitude of the crime, the vulnerability of the victim, and how it really fits within what the California legislature has said is a death penalty crime, murder in connection with kidnapping, murder in connection with a sexual assault.
CHUNG: Now, I just asked the spokesperson from the D.A.'s office, do you think that the system failed Samantha?
TOOBIN: It's very hard to know without knowing the details of the case. What is clear is that the case against Avila the first time had two factors in it that show why it's so hard to make these sexual assault cases.
One is that the testimony of children was involved. Children are not professional, experienced witnesses. They don't always tell stories clearly. They don't really understand an oath sometimes. It's often hard to build a case based on that. The second factor is that first case was the daughter of an ex-girlfriend of Avila's, was one of the alleged victims. Charges of sexual assault are often hurled in a bad break-up. Jurors can be persuaded that, well, you know, this was just a bad break-up, she was angry, she made these accusations. Those are hard cases to make for prosecutors. It seems like they didn't make this one.
CHUNG: You know, there was an undercurrent in that particular previous case. And there was some suggestion that there was a racial component, that the jury was more Hispanic, and there was very little that the prosecutor could go on. He really felt that he had overwhelming evidence.
TOOBIN: I'm a former prosecutor. And I'm also a former prosecutor who has lost cases. And, you know, we're heartbroken when it happens. But, you know, it does happen. And I can't speak to the specific reasons for that one, but I can just imagine how haunted everyone is by the possibility that this all might have been prevented if he'd been convicted the first time.
CHUNG: Now, you've seen the sheriff. He's been quite outspoken. He's 100 percent certain...
TOOBIN: Right, yes.
CHUNG: ... that Alejandro Avila is the man. Does it strike you as being a little bit -- that he's crossing a line a touch?
TOOBIN: It's unusually aggressive advocacy, but I think people are sophisticated. They know that he's an advocate for his position, and ultimately this case will be decided by a jury who will be instructed by a judge who keep an open mind and base it on the evidence in court. But it's hard to resist being passionate in a case like this, given how horrible the charges are.
CHUNG: So, what will it take to prosecute Avila?
TOOBIN: Well, I think the word -- there was, of course, a 6- year-old girl who was one of the witnesses who was responsible for that sketch, which bears such a remarkable resemblance to Avila. I think the key thing here will be DNA evidence. That is in process now. There have been no results announced. But if Samantha's blood, hair, is found in Avila's car, in his house, on his clothing, I mean, end of story. That will be the key evidence. And there may well be other evidence as well.
CHUNG: Now, you've talked about children being witnesses. In this particular case, the witness is this extraordinary little girlfriend who was able to tell police exactly what this person looked like. And there is some indication that she'll be called to testify as well.
TOOBIN: That's right. In fact, the prosecutor said he expected that she would be called as well. You never, as a prosecutor, want to base a case entirely on a child's testimony. Sometimes, you have no choice. Here, it seems, at least according to the law enforcement, there is a lot more there besides the 6-year-old testimony. But she's probably going to be there, and it will be an extraordinary moment.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you, Jeffrey Toobin.
TOOBIN: OK, Connie.
CHUNG: Still ahead, lost at sea for more than 18 hours, could you survive? You'll meet a man who did. Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, an American mother converted to Islam and wanted to take her child to the Middle East. Not so fast. Why this now has turned into an international custody dispute when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: In a South Dakota court today, a ruling in an emotional custody battle. Not between two parents, but between a mother and her own parents. At the center of it all, a 5-year-old boy named Trevor. The court ruled that his mom, Sally Barakat, would regain custody. Her son had been in the temporary custody of her father and stepmother.
Sally Barakat wanted him back so that she could take him to Egypt. She had recently converted to Islam and married an Egyptian man she met on the Internet. Sally Barakat joins us now from Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And her parents declined to appear with us, but their lawyer, Karen Crew, also joins us tonight.
Thank you so much for being with us.
Sally, here you were fighting your father and your stepmother for custody. Why don't you tell me exactly why.
SALLY BARAKAT, MUSLIM FOUGHT PARENTS FOR CUSTODY OF HER SON: Why? Because they feel they had the right to deny me to travel with my son outside of the country.
CHUNG: Well, but the reality is, is that you had met your husband on the Internet, right? And then you went to Egypt and had only seen him for 10 days, and you married him. Now your parents seem to think that your behavior was a touch on the bizarre side, and unpredictable.
BARAKAT: Yes, well, I let that be part of Trevor's life, but they didn't know a lot about my life. So a lot of their misunderstandings just come from the lack of involvement in my life.
And my husband -- we also have video. So for two years -- these last two years, it's not like we were strangers. And as a last resort I did go and personally be sure this is what we wanted, and the embassy agreed.
CHUNG: But was it your intention to take your son to Egypt and to live there? BARAKAT: Excuse me?
CHUNG: Was it your intention to take your son to Egypt and to live there?
BARAKAT: Permanently? No. But yes. I'm very open about what I do. I'm not sneaky, and I'm not one to flee. I'm very organized and I'm well-planned (sic) things out.
CHUNG: Your parents said that you had converted from Christianity, then you became an atheist, and now you're a Muslim.
They think that is somewhat erratic behavior as well. Can you explain how you've made these transitions?
BARAKAT: Well, I'm not sure where you're reading this or who quoted this to you, but the affidavit said atheist to Christian to Muslim within three months of last November.
But the reality is I was indifferent to God up until 1993 and very active in Christianity up until February of this year, when I converted to Islam. So that was just not the truth.
CHUNG: When your parents were taking care of your son temporarily, were they doing a good job, do you think?
BARAKAT: My opinion? No.
CHUNG: Why not?
BARAKAT: Why? Because anyone who knows a 5-year-old child and raises a child and understands a child knows that he has emotional and physical needs. You don't pull him away from all the friends he knows instantly. You don't attack his mother, you don't attack his stepdad he has not met in person yet. And he is afraid.
You don't go through these ways to get what you want, to use a 5- year-old to do this.
CHUNG: All right, Karen Crew, you are the lawyer for her parents, her father and her stepmother.
Why were they...
KAREN CREW, ATTORNEY FOR PARENTS OF MUSLIM MOTHER: I'm also a lawyer for the natural father, Connie.
CHUNG: All right, the biological father who actually concurred with the parents, correct?
CREW: He was also a plaintiff.
CHUNG: But he didn't want custody of the child himself?
CREW: No, he wanted Sally's parents, Conrad and Julie Reterth, to have custody. CHUNG: All right. Why were they fighting for custody?
CREW: They were concerned about Trevor's safety. They thought that Sally had engaged in some erratic behavior, as you indicated earlier to Sally. And they were concerned about the safety, the security.
They thought Trevor is going to start school this fall. Sally had indicated to them that she was moving to Egypt and, in fact, testified today about American schools in Egypt. So there is some evidence to indicate that that was her true intent.
And they didn't think it was a good idea for Trevor to start school in Egypt, where he knows no one except Sally, he doesn't speak the language, at a school that's so far unnamed.
They were concerned about his security, his safety and stability.
CHUNG: Well, there are people in the Muslim community who believe that they were against their daughter keeping the son and maybe taking him to Egypt because they were discriminating against Muslims.
CREW: Conrad and Julie and Richard Hill (ph) would totally disagree with that. That was never an issue until it was made an issue by Sally, we believe, but it could be the media; I'm not certain.
But the testimony has been consistent from Conrad and Julie that they have no problem with Sally being a Muslim. What they have a problem with is this little Native American boy who is known as Little Thunder moving to Egypt to go to some unnamed school where he doesn't speak the language and has no friends.
CHUNG: All right, Sally Barakat, back to you for the final word.
Don't you think that your son should have some background in Native American traditions?
BARAKAT: This is ironic, because not only did my father not raise me and have no legal rights to me and not give me any native culture, he's not active himself. The fact that my son is 1/16 Sioux, and any Native American culture he has, including his Indian name, was given and sought out by me, which was also said in court today.
And I would also like to add something else, if I could. They say this is not a racial issue -- or a religious issue. Yet in the very affidavit they use against me, they attach a picture and they say that my very declaring myself a Muslim is bizarre.
Now, this would not have been brought up had it not been legally used against me to take my son.
CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, both of you, for being with us. We appreciate it.
BARAKAT: Thank you Connie.
CHUNG: And in tonight's "Off the Radar," we take a look at, perhaps, the most well-known international custody battle, also with Islam at the center of it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER (voice-over): The Iranian revolution provided a backdrop for perhaps the most notorious case of a cross-cultural custody battle. It was 1984 when the Iranian hostage crisis was only a few years past when Betty Mahmoody arrived for a vacation with her Iranian-born husband and their daughter.
But the religious-based law of Iran declared that any woman married to an Iranian was an Iranian citizen forced to heed her husband's word. So when Betty's husband decided to stay and keep their daughter in Iran, Betty had no legal recourse.
The Sally Field movie, "Not Without My Daughter," was inspired by her 18-month ordeal in Iran and her harrowing 500-mile escape across lawless Iranian terrain into neighboring Turkey.
What ever happened to Betty and her daughter Mahtob?
The answer when we return.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Whatever happened to the mother and daughter whose story inspired the movie "Not Without My Daughter?" Betty Mahmoody found the group One World for Children to assist other parents dealing with international kidnappings and custody disputes.
The daughter seen in the movie has grown up to pursue a premed degree, but she and her mother live under assumed names now, still in fear for their lives.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: You've got to hear this story. Daniel Griffin spent more than 18 hours fighting for his life in the waters off Cape Cod this weekend. After being knocked overboard from his sailboat, he treaded water, fought off sleep and hunger, and get this, stayed afloat throughout the night without a life jacket. It's a story that certainly caught my attention and the moment we heard about it, I wanted to talk to him about how he survived.
Daniel joins us now from Hyannis, Massachusetts. Daniel, thank you for being with us. First off...
DANIEL GRIFFIN, SURVIVED 18 HOURS TREADING WATER IN CAPE COD: Hi, Connie.
CHUNG: Hi. How are you feeling? Do you have any injuries?
GRIFFIN: I feel a lot better today. I have some minor burns on my hand, and just bandaged to keep it clean, and around my ankles similar, just some minor rope burn. But that's pretty much most of it.
CHUNG: All right. Let's go back to the beginning. You were out sailing on Saturday and something happened. You were knocked off the boat. When you hit the water, were you able to at least hold onto the boat?
GRIFFIN: I managed to grab on just for a few seconds. But I wasn't -- I was unable to pull my weight up on because of the drag and the motor was pulling me so fast.
CHUNG: Right. So did the boat take off?
GRIFFIN: My hands slipped off and I just watched the boat take off.
CHUNG: Oh, my gosh. Did you think, "I'm now on my own?"
GRIFFIN: That was the initial thought, I'm in big trouble here. And I'm pretty familiar with that area and the traffic, ferry traffic. And I was hoping that the boat would turn and get in the channel where the ferries continuously run all day and hopefully someone would be aware that there was no one steering and call in the Coast Guard.
But my initial thought right away was I need to maintain myself and I've got to stay within an area where they can find me. I need to stay within Nantucket Sound and not drift out to sea was my foremost, right away thought.
CHUNG: Had you had any instruction or experience to deal with this kind of situation?
GRIFFIN: Fortunately, I'm in the Navy Reserves. I've been in 10 years, Merchant Marine officer, chief engineer. And I've been to cold water survival school with the Merchant Marine and Navy. And at both Massachusetts Maritime Academy and Navy initiation training, water survival was a major course.
CHUNG: All right. So, tell me what you did because, from what I understand, if you swim, it actually could cause you to be colder, that if you are still, then you won't lose so much body heat?
GRIFFIN: Right. My initial reaction to hitting the water was that the water was not cold. It was 65 degrees, I found that out after the fact. I wasn't concerned about losing temperature and I didn't anticipate a long time being in due to the amount of traffic in the area. I figured it would be only a matter of hours, if I was lucky, to be picked up.
So I tried to maintain a location and a heading and tried to stay within the general vicinity of Nantucket Sound area and the ferry route itself rather than being drifted one direction or the other.
CHUNG: Did you see any ferries?
GRIFFIN: Yes, I did. Throughout the day, I saw the normal routine. I saw them pass each other. I saw them pass each other. I'd see one come back and so on, so forth, as they do all day.
CHUNG: Right. Were you able to wave anybody down?
GRIFFIN: I had my yellow foul weather jacket. I kept that with me as a flag. And I waved that, to no avail. No one saw it.
CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.
GRIFFIN: At one point, I had a lobster boat about 50 feet from me, two men on board. And they were headed right towards me. I waved the jacket and they turned course, and never see them again. So, that's pretty despairing.
CHUNG: Yes. I mean, did you actually think you were going to die?
GRIFFIN: There was a time, early morning hours of Sunday morning, probably 3:00, 4:00, a few hours before sunrise, where the air temperature had finally chilled me throughout. My teeth were chattering out of control. And I kept submerging myself underwater because the water temp was warmer than the air.
And I used a couple of methods that I was taught in school about getting to almost a fetal position tuck to try to maintain body heat around your body, pull your knees toward your chest, and take a deep breath and then exhale slowly. And then, I did a combination of every kind of swimming stroke that I could think of to try to keep blood flowing to my limbs. And I didn't want to lose total feeling in my legs.
And I started to have feelings of saying statements that didn't make sense, and -- but I was aware enough to know what was causing that. And I was seeing images when I was -- my face down in the water, and then I'd wake up. I would doze off and then I would wake back up and realize I was just dreaming, a repetitive dream that I was in a boat and I would try to stand up and I'd realize I was still in the water.
CHUNG: What kept you going, Daniel?
GRIFFIN: Well, for the most part, some people think it's hard to believe, but when I was out there, my main concern was what other people were going to think. And the way that I ended conversations with my family or friends. I didn't want that to be the end.
CHUNG: You thought of your parents, too, didn't you?
GRIFFIN: Exactly. That was very...
CHUNG: And bear in mind... GRIFFIN: ... that was very difficult.
CHUNG: I want all the viewers to know that you did not have a life preserver. And you just kept going. You were hungry, you were tired, you were sleepy, and you just kept going, right?
GRIFFIN: Right. I came up in the morning, the sun started to rise. And I was a couple of miles offshore. And I'd set my mind to determine that I was going to make it into shore. I was swimming by myself. Shortly thereafter, I saw Coast Guard jets flying overhead. A jet flying overhead and circling. And I also saw a sailboat leaving Hyannis, and I tried to intercept their course, as I waved and kicked to get the attention of the plane. And throughout the night, I saw helicopters out there with searchlights, but they were just a quarter, a half a mile away from where I was. I was closer inland than they expected.
CHUNG: Well, Daniel, we were able to find the man who spotted you floating in the water and then pulled you to safety. So joining us now by phone from Shelter Island, New York is Tone Qwas. Mr. Qwas, thank you so much for talking to us. Tell me, did you see Daniel, did you hear him yelling at you? How did you find him?
TONE QWAS, RESCUED DANIEL GRIFFIN: Well, all of that, actually. My wife and I were coming out of the Hyannis harbor, on the way to Kuttihunk (ph). We were pretty much on a southerly course. And then I was making a very gradual change to the west. And as I was doing that, we heard, both of us at the same time, off the left side of the boat, the port side, a plea of "help, help me." And those three words that I'll always remember.
CHUNG: It must have been so incredible when you actually were able to see him.
QWAS: It was just unbelievable. I've been sailing for over 50 years, and nothing like this has ever happened. And when we were able to stop the boat, I was in a rush to get back to him because I didn't know just what shape he was in. And when we finally settled down to get the boat alongside of him and we threw him a life preserver, my wife and I helped to pull him in. You know, he looked -- he really looked terrific for being in the water that long. I mean, I didn't realize he was in the water that long.
CHUNG: When he told you that he had been in the water for more than 18 hours, what did you say?
QWAS: I just couldn't believe it. It was unbelievable. And then he had some strength to get on the back part, the aft part of the boat. And he looked a little delusional. He was saying some funny sorts of things. And then I was pulling a dinghy and he started to untie the dinghy, and then I realized that he was somewhat out of it at the moment. And then we got him up into the boat, and my wife got some warm blankets and we wrapped him up. And I put a call into the Coast Guard to give them my position and tell them exactly where I was. And in the meantime... CHUNG: Tone, let me go over to Daniel for a minute. Daniel, when you saw Mr. and Mrs. Qwas, you must have just thought, oh my gosh, they're angels.
GRIFFIN: I thought -- my initial thought was, this is the chance right here, I have to scream as loud as I can. And hopefully they can get me here.
CHUNG: So when they brought you on board, did you think, oh but for the grace of God I was about to go?
GRIFFIN: My first reaction -- I climbed up onto the swimming platform and I laid down and I didn't want to move. I just tucked into a fetal position. And Tone told me I had to come up and get warm. So I tried to climb up the ladder. And he pulled me up, helped me pull.
CHUNG: Have you talked to Tone Qwas and his wife since then?
GRIFFIN: Yes, I talked to them on the phone a couple of hours ago.
CHUNG: All right. Good. Daniel Griffin and Tone Qwas, thank you so much. Incredible story.
Now, coming up: Watch your wallet. Your bottom line is on the line.
ANNOUNCER: Next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIDGMORE: WorldCom has filed for protection under Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: When will it end? You don't have to own stock in WorldCom to be concerned about your money. CEOs and your cash flow when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: So what does the biggest bankruptcy in U.S. history mean to you? If it were global widgets and doodads, it might not mean much, but WorldCom, which includes MCI, has tentacles that reach into just about every corner of American life, including, though you may not know it, your life. If your phone service doesn't rely on them, a big chunk of your Internet usage does. WorldCom CEO John Sidgmore says a $100 billion company is far from dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIDGMORE: We believe strongly that when we emerge from Chapter 11, we will still have the best set of assets in the telecommunications industry, the best employees, a very healthy balance sheet, a streamlined focus, and our spirit of competition will remain intact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: But not all investors are so confident. So we've asked "Fortune" magazine's senior write Patty Sellers and CNNfn correspondent Valerie Morris to join us. Thank you for being with us.
Valerie, I'll start with you. With this bankruptcy, what effect will it have on me, especially if I'm an MCI customer?
VALERIE MORRIS, CNNFN CORRESPONDENT: The first thing I need to tell you is that the numbers are daunting when you think about MCI- WorldCom. It has 30 percent of all calls. It has 50 percent of all business calls, 70 percent of all Internet calls. So people think, well, maybe...
CHUNG: Seventy percent!
MORRIS: ... my line is going to go dead. It won't. So the first thing they need to know, if anything, bankruptcy is the thing that helps to, in some ways, stabilize the company. People say, well, if it's a bankruptcy, that means that in addition to the 11,000 layoffs that have already happened, there are going to be more. But WorldCom's president, Sidgmore, said this morning that he does not anticipate any more layoffs.
CHUNG: Yes, but why should I believe a CEO these days? People do not.
MORRIS: People don't. And the thing that you need to remember is that as an individual consumer, if you are a WorldCom customer, you're not going to pick up the phone tomorrow and the line is going to be dead. You're still going to have phone service. It's because the FCC makes sure that there's not a disconnect without you having warning. So the public would have at least 30 days from a public announcement, which WorldCom has not yet made, so 30 days from that announcement before any kind of disconnect could be made.
But in the meantime, what will happen is you should really just sit back, don't panic, because other companies are going to jump in, they're going to be sending you offers and giving you incentives.
CHUNG: AT&T and Sprint, they're going to be in there, because they'll try.
MORRIS: Absolutely.
CHUNG: Before I get to you, Pattie, I know I sound like an MCI customer who wants to know, but if I were choosing a long distance carrier, should I avoid MCI?
MORRIS: Let's put it this way. If, right now, you can make a choice, why not go with that which is functioning to the best of your ability, that you know, is presenting no problems at all. Some people have said, in fact, maybe they should just bail out of WorldCom right now. CHUNG: Yes.
MORRIS: Those who are in it don't have to bail out right now. They can take their time to make an informed judgment on these other offers that are coming (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And also, if you aren't and you're choosing, make sure you look at all of the basics of companies to find out if they're offering you the services that you need.
CHUNG: Well, isn't repair service going to automatically be worse at MCI?
MORRIS: The best way that I could put that is since there have been 11,000 layoffs already, the one area you might see some problems, and that would be delays in customer service and repairs, those might not happen as quickly as they would have otherwise.
CHUNG: All right. Pattie, maybe not as practical a question as the ones I've been asking Valerie, but first, it's Enron, then there is WorldCom. How many more of these bankruptcies can the market sustain?
PATTIE SELLERS, SENIOR WRITER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Well, we don't know how many more there will be, which is probably putting a cap on the recovery of the stock market. You know, we have this situation where the economy looks fairly strong, earnings are coming in ahead of expectations in most cases. And yet, the market's going down every day. Primarily because there is this worry that there are more Enrons and WorldComs out there. There's also a situation on August 14, CEOs are going to -- large companies, almost 1,000 companies, are going to be required to certify their financial statements.
CHUNG: Right. So they can't claim ignorance any more?
SELLERS: That's right. It's going to -- if they certify and then there is found to be some kind of hanky panky, they will be much more liable to go to jail, there will be a platform now for large lawsuits. And, you know, one interesting thing about this August 14 sort of amnesty date is that it was August 14, 2001 that Jeff Skilling quit Enron, which is what made this whole thing begin, you know.
So maybe on August 14, when we have CEOs verifying that their financial statements are true, maybe we can call that the end of the disaster period. Hopefully we will.
CHUNG: Is there someone we can blame for what has happened?
SELLERS: You know, this whole corporate crisis, corporate confidence crisis, proves more than anything has that the CEO truly matters. And you know, CEOs are on the line. CEOs are liable. CFOs are liable. And, you know, what we're seeing now is that it's more important than ever for boards of directors to be the bullies and the cynics and the skeptics whose primary job is to hire and fire the CEO.
CHUNG: Keep an eye on that person? SELLERS: Absolutely. And boards of directors have been out to lunch. And now they're being called upon to do their job. And it's a good thing.
CHUNG: Valerie, will rates go up? Will we see them going up?
MORRIS: I think it's too soon for us to know that. I think what's important for people to know though is, to play off something that Pattie was talking about, is that perhaps there's going to be more accountability so that then we're going to be avoiding some of these problems that we have seen coming to WorldCom.
WorldCom is not a surprise. I mean, we knew several months ago that it was lining up to be a situation that could, in fact, end in bankruptcy. I think one of the things that I like to talk to consumers about, as I do personal finance reporting, is we need to have some resolutions for the problems. And one possible resolution kind of got buried in yesterday's announcement, and that was the push for independent board members. Right now, WorldCom has two independent board members, people who have no history with WorldCom, and people who will hopefully bring some fresh outlook, you know, to the board.
That said, I think it could be the beginning of a trend, that other companies, maybe not in trouble or not in trouble yet, would want to do the same thing.
CHUNG: Pattie, how do we get the confidence back?
SELLERS: Well, the reforms that are being imposed really will help a lot. A lot of these reforms don't kick in until late summer. There's a bill going through Congress right now that President Bush has said he will sign. And once we get these reforms in place, I think it will help in a major way.
What we need is confidence back. And I think we just need to get through this rough period, and the market will respond once there's a feeling that there are stricter rules and companies are required to play by the rules.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much. Appreciate your being with us, Pattie Sellers and Valerie Morris.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow, it was just your everyday mother-daughter business, except their business was running one of New Orleans' hottest brothels. To get a preview of our program every day, sign up for our daily e-mail by logging onto cnn.com/connie.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," more on the accused killer of Samantha Runnion. Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.
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