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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Congress Discusses Expulsion of Traficant; Police Search for Kidnappers of Philadelphia Girl
Aired July 24, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight, American history in the making. Members of Congress are deciding whether to expel one of their own.
ANNOUNCER: Traficant's last stand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES TRAFICANT (D), OHIO: If I am to be expelled under these circumstances, then God save the republic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Controversial Congressman James Traficant faces the vote that could end his political career. And he's not going quietly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAFICANT: I've never been a quitter. I don't think I'll quit now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The great escape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was able to break the front window and yell for some help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A 7-year-old's dramatic escape from kidnappers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's safe. That's all we're worrying about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Her story of survival. Say it ain't so.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How dare they?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Eleven-year-old ball players say they were told to throw a game by their coaches.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm really appalled that they would do that to our kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The big investigation into the little league.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Good evening.
Tonight, the fate of Ohio Congressman James Traficant. The House of Representatives is debating that right now. Just last week, the House ethics committee unanimously recommended that Traficant be expelled. Now, the full House will decide.
Last April, he was convicted of 10 felony counts, including soliciting bribes and demanding kickbacks. He's not been sentenced yet, but prosecutors want him to spend more than seven years in prison. So, what's Traficant's response? He wants to run for re- election in November. He's just that kind of guy.
CNN congressional correspondent Kate Snow is on Capitol Hill covering the debate and the vote. Kate, have the fireworks started?
KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They have, Connie. Right now, they're in the midst of debating whether they should actually go ahead with this vote tonight. There are a few friends of Traficant, one by the name of Steve LaTourette, a fellow Ohio congressman. You see him there speaking live on the House floor.
He has brought up a motion to try to push things off. He's saying, look, let's not rush into this. Let's give the guy another six weeks. Let's wait until the Congress comes back from an August recess, and then let's take this up. He's raised a number of questions about some of the evidence, about a juror who came out over the weekend and said that he now has some questions about whether he might have had some doubt about finding Traficant guilty.
So the bottom line, a few congressmen saying that maybe we should hold off. But, Connie, we expect that that will fail. We expect that this move to try to push off the vote won't succeed probably within the next hour. They'll move ahead to try to expel Jim Traficant.
CHUNG: Kate, is Congressman Traficant going to be able to speak himself?
SNOW: He is. And you know from last night, Connie, that he'll take full advantage of that time. We expect him to speak for about a half-hour. He may ask for even more time than that, but he's been slotted one half-hour to speak. We saw him a little bit earlier. I just saw him on the House floor. He's wearing a black suit with a gray tie. He didn't go for that white denim suit that he told you that he might wear.
CHUNG: Oh, what a surprise.
SNOW: We do expect him, in all seriousness, to talk about the government's case against him. He's said repeatedly that he thinks that the government was out to get him, there was a vendetta against him. He has said that he is innocent of all of the charges, although, as you point out, a jury has convicted him on all of them.
On his way in, he was giving high fives to some of the staff around here. He gave some hugs to some of the female staff right off of the floor. And then he characteristically said, I've got to go to the john, I've got to go to the john, and he ran into the bathroom just before going out onto the House floor.
CHUNG: Kate, it is so easy to laugh about all of this because he's so colorful. But the reality is that he's facing expulsion. Is the general consensus that he will be expelled?
SNOW: Yes, the general consensus is from both Democrats and Republicans alike that there is an overwhelming sentiment in the House that these are very serious charges. We're talking about felonies. We're talking about accepting bribes. We're talking about taking kickbacks from his staff, forcing some of his staff to work on his horse farm. All of that is what that jury found back in Cleveland in April.
And while there is a lot of laughter, one of his good friends, Steve LaTourette, the congressman you just saw a minute ago, said to me, you know, it is easy to make fun, it's easy to laugh at him. But this is a serious matter. It's no laughing matter. He could lose his job, his career tonight. And he's going to be sentenced to jail next week.
CHUNG: Right. Kate, thank you so much. It's good to have you on. We appreciate it.
SNOW: Sure.
CHUNG: Also from Washington, we're going to bring in CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider to give us a handle on exactly what all of this means. Bill, I know it makes us all chuckle, but the reality is is his esteemed colleagues want to get rid of him, don't they? WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: They do because he embarrasses them, because he's not respectable. He doesn't look respectable. He doesn't talk respectable. He doesn't behave...
CHUNG: But that's no reason to get rid of him. There are plenty of unrespectable members of Congress, don't you think?
SCHNEIDER: He has been convicted of 10 counts of corruption. And, you know, he don't get no respect, like Rodney Dangerfield, but there's a reason. In this case, they got something on him.
CHUNG: All right. Now, if he is expelled, he says he wants to run again. Can he?
SCHNEIDER: Sure, he can run and he can even win. He barely got elected. Well, he got 50 percent of the vote last time which is not an overwhelming vote of endorsement. But Congress, the House can refuse to seat him. They did that a couple of times in the 20th century, most famously with the case of Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., who had a judgment against him that he refused to pay. He was subject to arrest.
He kept getting elected and re-elected and re-elected. The House refused to seat him until the Supreme Court intervened. I'm not sure the Supreme Court would intervene in the case of Traficant.
CHUNG: Well, can he win? If he goes out there and tries to run from jail, can he actually win?
SCHNEIDER: The latest information we have from his district is that his support is seriously eroded among his constituents.
CHUNG: But he was so popular, wasn't he?
SCHNEIDER: He used to be popular. But what he did was something constituents don't easily forgive. He embarrassed his constituents. You remember a guy named Gary Condit? Look what happened to him. He embarrassed his constituents and he did terribly. Well, he has new constituents in this district now because it's been redistricted. Even though he's delivered a lot for his district, and a lot of positions are popular back home, once you've gone this far and embarrassed them, a lot of people say, they draw the line. Can't do it anymore. Same thing his colleagues are saying tonight.
CHUNG: Well, Bill, he spent a lot of time in Congress, what was it, nine terms, 18 years.
SCHNEIDER: Right.
CHUNG: Was he an effective Congressman?
SCHNEIDER: Well, surprisingly, yes. I mean, he really is a populist, which means he takes positions that are often popular even if they're not respectable. For instance, he's an isolationist. He opposes aid to Israel. It's no way to win favor with the establishment, but some people like that. He's a protectionist, he opposes free trade. Some of the measures that he sponsored have gotten into law not because he's so influential, but because they have genuine popular support. Like labels requiring goods to be called made in America, if they are, like a taxpayer bill of rights so that people can get back at the Internal Revenue Service. His brand of politics is called up the establishment. And what the establishment is saying to him tonight is, we got you fella.
CHUNG: Well, Bill, I can't imagine, actually, next week he is going to be sentenced. And he could spend seven years in prison.
SCHNEIDER: That's right. He could spend that amount of time. There have been people elected -- I'm not sure James Michael Curly (ph) was actually elected, although the legend says he was.
But, look, the Constitution has just a few requirements for serving in the House. I believe he could get elected right out of jail. Unlikely, unlikely, the latest polling we have from his district shows he's getting only about 13 percent support as an independent, which is how he'd have to run. But, yes, theoretically, he could get re-elected. But the House could refuse to seat him.
CHUNG: And, Bill, one final question. You know, most members of Congress who have found themselves in trouble, criminal trouble, have gracefully resigned, right?
SCHNEIDER: Yes. Mario Biachi (ph). In New York, he -- I wouldn't say gracefully -- he resigned. They decided not to be expelled. But he's fighting this all the way. The other guy who got expelled -- there's only been one other case since the Civil War -- was Ozzie Myers (ph) of Pennsylvania, who was caught in the ABSCAM scandal, taking a bribe from an FBI guy disguised as an Arab sheik. He had to be expelled as well. But most of the time, when they face this kind of trouble, they want to do the respectable thing. That's what I'm saying. This guy doesn't care about the respectable thing.
CHUNG: All right. Bill, great to have you with us.
SCHNEIDER: Sure, Connie.
CHUNG: Still ahead, the little league team now in the middle of a big-league controversy. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Flight Level 1-9-0 with Juliet (ph).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Under pressure and stressed out. Tonight, air traffic controllers, putting you on a collision course?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: I've got to show you this picture. It just says it all. Erica is back home, and I'm talking about the amazing 7-year-old Erica Pratt of Philadelphia. She was kidnapped Monday night. She managed to escape. She's back home.
She escaped in a very dramatic fashion. She saw a possible way out from the house she was being held in. She went for it, chewing through duct tape, and she succeeded. And there she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH MOORE, ERICA'S UNCLE: This has been a very, very emotional time for us as a family. In regards to that, we are extremely happy that she has been returned to us safely. Erica is enjoying being with her family again and is doing the things that she normally does. We applaud her for her courageousness, tenacity and wit and doing whatever she could to get to safety. I guess in that regard, she is a hero in her own way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Now a manhunt is on for the men who took her, and joining me from Philadelphia is chief inspector Robert Davis. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate it.
ROBERT DAVIS, PHILADELPHIA CHIEF POLICE INSPECTOR: You're welcome, Connie.
CHUNG: Chief Davis, how is she? How is Erica tonight?
DAVIS: Erica is in great shape tonight. She's a tough little kid. She looks like she came through it pretty good. She's back to being a kid again.
CHUNG: Any injuries?
DAVIS: No, I think there was a -- there was a contusion to her right eye. I don't know how that is right now, but I think it was caused by the duct tape.
CHUNG: All right. Walk me through exactly what happened. How did she escape?
DAVIS: OK, Erica was being kept in the basement of a house that was under renovation. It was an older house. She was kept downstairs. There was a mattress in the basement. It was dark, there was no windows. She was left down there with duct tape on her hands, her feet and around her eyes.
She was there for approximately 24 hours. During that time there was nobody there in the building with her. She managed to her -- chew through the duct tape on her hands and free herself and work her way up the steps that were open steps that had no backs to them, were pretty rickety. She worked her way up the steps in the dark. The door at the top of the steps, I believe, was locked, and somehow she kicked the panel in and got the door open.
CHUNG: That's amazing. I'm sorry, I just had to respond to that. Keep going. DAVIS: This is a tough little kid. She worked her way across the floor, and the kitchen floor and dining room floor had big holes in them where it was being renovated. Fortunately, she worked her way all the way over to the front door. The front door was locked, and there was a mail slot that was open, and she began yelling through the mail slot.
She attracted the attention of a couple kids who were playing outside. They came over, couldn't get the door open. Then with their help, Erica smashed the window from the inside with a hammer, and then they opened the window from the outside and the screen and she was able to get out there.
CHUNG: That is an incredible story.
DAVIS: Tough kid. And when we found her, when we took her to the hospital, she still had the duct tape wrapped around her head. And they took it off in the hospital. Fortunately, there was -- the injuries weren't serious and she made it all right.
CHUNG: Do you know how she was treated during those less than 24 hours?
DAVIS: Well, the treatment was not good. She was just left down there. They put her down there after they brought her to that location and left her, and she had no contact with them after that. So she was basically by herself that whole time.
CHUNG: Did she have any food?
DAVIS: I believe they left her like a bag of potato chips and a bottle of juice or something, but nothing substantial.
CHUNG: How about sleep? Was she able to sleep at all?
DAVIS: I think she slept off and on, just those off 7-year-old kids, they're -- they don't go too long without getting tired, so I think she probably slept off and on, but she was scared out of her wits while she was doing it.
CHUNG: Well, when you finally got to her, was she the one that described everything to you?
DAVIS: Yes. At that time she gave us a brief description. And then, well, we went into the property and searched the property and we could see the conditions that she was in. Then we got a more detailed check from her at the hospital.
CHUNG: So did she actually sit down and answer questions in a very calm way? That's what I thought I had heard earlier.
DAVIS: Yes, she did. She was shook up, and so we didn't question her too much as to who she was. We took her to the hospital. The people, the staff at Children's Hospital are fantastic with kids. They had her calmed down. She -- they settled her down. Then they attempted to take the duct tape from her hair, she started to cry a bit. They brought her grandmother...
CHUNG: Well, sure, you know.
DAVIS: Yes, it hurts. They brought her grandmother in and she stopped crying and a lot of kisses and hugs, and she settled down. And after she had enough time and was examined by the doctors and all, we were fortunate to get a short -- a brief interview with her. We didn't want to pressure her too much, but we were able to get enough details off her to know what happened.
CHUNG: Now, did she know her abductors?
DAVIS: I don't believe she knew her abductors. She was able to identify one after the fact through a photo spread. But at the time she didn't know who they were.
CHUNG: Ah, so that's how you were able to identify these two suspects?
DAVIS: Well, that, and there were some other investigative techniques that led us to them.
CHUNG: So -- tell me once again, she was able to pinpoint or identify one of those individuals?
DAVIS: That's correct. In a photo spread.
CHUNG: I see. And how the investigation going? What can you tell us about it?
DAVIS: The investigation's going pretty good. We had a lot of help with the FBI, a lot of information from our intelligence and our narcotics units. We were able to obtain warrants for two males, one by the name of Edward Johnson, one by the name of James Burns. We have warrants for them and we're actively seeking them right now, even as we speak.
CHUNG: All right. Well, thank you so much, Chief. It's a delight to have you tell her wonderful story. We're so glad she's back, and we wish you luck in finding those two suspects.
DAVIS: Thank you, Connie. I'm glad to be here, and I'm happy that she came out safe.
CHUNG: All right.
DAVIS: Thanks.
CHUNG: Still ahead, they say if you hang in there long enough, it is bound to happen, and it finally did. A good day for the stock market. And what will tomorrow bring? Keep it right here.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, a big league problem for a little league team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am really appalled that they would do that to our kids.
ANNOUNCER: Were these kids told to lose a game on purpose? We'll find out when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: You might think that when the number of airline flights goes up, the number of air traffic controllers goes up to match it, right? Wrong. Not only hasn't the number gone up, but the number of air traffic veterans on the job appears to be about to take a plunge, a big plunge. When you think about what they do for a living, the reason for all this probably won't surprise you. CNN's Jeff Flock reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You want excitement?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: USAir 280, maintain 3-2...
FLOCK: Pressure?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 6-0-5 is recleared to Milwaukee via after Dubuque.
FLOCK: A rush?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had reports of moderate turbulence at flight level on 370...
RAY GIBBONS, AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER: You're an air traffic controller at the busiest air traffic facility in the world. You've got 12 airplanes listening to your every word, wanting to know what they should do next.
FLOCK: But Ray Gibbons walks out of the Chicago TRACON, the terminal radar approach control building and thinks about leaving for the last time. He and thousands of other controllers hired 20 years ago to rebuild the system after the big controllers strike are now nearing retirement.
(on camera): And when you get eligible?
GIBBONS: I'm going.
FLOCK: No question about it?
GIBBONS: No.
FLOCK (voice-over): To hear the controllers talk, it's mostly the stress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The blue aircraft are the arrivals coming into O'Hare.
FLOCK: And this is a slow time. Whether you work here at the O'Hare tower which clears flights for takeoff; the TRACON, where Gibbons works which picks the planes up about five miles out; or the cavelike Chicago Center, which handles a space up to 250 miles out, controllers say they are short-staffed.
Right before they went on strike in 1981, there were 15,000 controllers and about 14,000 flights a day. Today, while the number of controllers remains about the same, the number of flights has more than doubled to more than 35,000 a day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 348, turn 10 degrees to the left.
FLOCK: The FAA says the system's more efficient now, but admits "we definitely do have a challenge in hiring new controllers," looking to hire 1,200 in the next year. Still, the FAA's Bill Peacock tells CNN "we believe we are ready."
A U.S. General Accounting Office report last month disagreed, concluding the FAA doesn't have a workforce strategy to address impending controller needs, although they are paid for and Chicago controllers are now working mandatory six days.
GIBBONS: A guy walked out last month, you know. He was eligible to retire, wasn't planning on it. I mean, he was planning in about six months. But he had a couple of tough sessions and said good-bye, not coming back.
FLOCK: Ray Gibbons is for now.
I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: And joining me now to tell their stories of what it's like up there in those towers, John Carr, president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association; and Barrett Byrnes, president of the JFK Airport chapter. Thank you for joining us today.
BARRETT BYRNES, PRESIDENT, NATCA, JFK AIRPORT CHAPTER: My pleasure.
CHUNG: You know, that General Accounting Office report just scared the heck out of me because, basically, it said in the not too distant future, there's going to be a shortage of air traffic controllers. Why a shortage, Mr. Byrnes?
BYRNES: No. 1, I'm eligible to retire in six weeks. And I may actually retire.
CHUNG: How old are you?
BYRNES: I'll be 50 on September 18.
CHUNG: And you're eligible because of the length of time that you've worked?
BYRNES: That is correct.
CHUNG: OK. Go ahead.
BYRNES: So, I will be eligible, but I'm mandated by Congress to retire by age 56. The stressful occupation of air traffic control found through many studies, and Congress passed a law back in 1972 that said, you know, that we need special safety rules for air traffic controllers. And that's why we don't go on beyond age 56. The FAA has looked at this to say, well, in case there is a shortfall of controllers, maybe we can just change the law. I think that would be foolish to do that.
CHUNG: Change the law and make the age higher, 60-something.
BYRNES: Increase the age, right. But then we're going to start impacting safety. And I think that's an area...
CHUNG: Now, why would you retire in six weeks instead of waiting six years?
BYRNES: Well, No. 1, I've been at Kennedy, I've been at a number of other facilities around the country. And, you know, air traffic control, I mean, I love air traffic control. My dad was an air traffic controller and I got into it. So, I really enjoy what I do.
But there are night like last night where 50 airplanes due to thunderstorms are just sitting on the tarmac and they can't move. You know, so that's a stressful thing. And then when you start throwing in other ingredients in on a beautiful day, you start throwing into a missed approach, emergency, the weather, whatever the case is, each thing can add up.
And you know, sometimes it's good to sit back. I live 57 miles from JFK. And, you know, it's just a beautiful quiet place. And that's my sort of serenity. So, you know, that's what I really enjoy. But I really do enjoy my occupation, but sometimes, you know, the stress is there.
CHUNG: All right. Mr. Carr, this is not just a problem at JFK. But can you explain the overall problem of why there's going to be a shortage?
JOHN CARR, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS ASSOCIATION: Well, the shortage traces its roots back to the controller strike of 1981 when President Reagan fired about 12,000 air traffic controllers. That event caused us to lose three generations of air traffic controllers and we replaced them with one generation of air traffic controllers.
CHUNG: You just hired a whole slew of them.
CARR: A massive hiring at the early '80s, from 1981 through, say, 1985. And as the GAO report will tell you, that singular event has caused us to have this large number of controllers all approaching retirement at the same time.
CHUNG: And they will retire, won't they?
CARR: Oh, absolutely. This is a different workforce than it was. The FAA says that they will stick around. But the truth of the matter is the FAA's data is at least 20 years old. This is a control workforce that has really worked some extraordinary traffic under extraordinarily trying times. And they've done incredibly wonderful and heroic things with it. But when they're ready and able to retire, they're going to retire.
CHUNG: Well, are there any air traffic controllers that are being trained so that they will be able to take over?
CARR: That's probably where we have our fundamental disagreement with the FAA. The FAA will tell you that they have a plan to hire and train air traffic controllers. GAO will tell you, and we agree with GAO, that one-third of all controllers will retire in the next five years, two-thirds of all controllers will retire in the next 10.
And air traffic controllers, Connie, are just like runways. It takes about five years to make a good one. So you have to hire now for the need that you're going to have in 2007 and beyond.
CHUNG: So, once again, in 2007, the total who will retire will be what percentage, would you say?
CARR: One-third of 15,000, or 5,000 controllers will be eligible to retire. I'm not saying they'll all go, I'm saying they'll be eligible.
And clearly, as traffic increases, as security concerns in the post-September 11 environment increase, as the stresses of the job take their toll on a post-strike workforce, people who are eligible and have prepared are going to retire.
And it's funny, because the last five years Jane Garvey's tenure as FAA administrator had been marked by great strides in modernization and automation. And it would be a shame if the next five years are marked by a decrease in staffing.
CHUNG: Well Mr. Byrnes, all I can think of is it's not going to be safe for me as a flier. And also, at best, there are going to be delays.
BYRNES: Well we'll be safe, no doubt about it. I mean, the men and women...
CHUNG: Yes, but how will I know that, because if there are -- if this group is getting older -- but if this group is getting older, more stressed-out, perhaps, even after 9/11, that worries me.
CARR: The way the safety is maintained is because controllers and their supervisors and the system works as a seamless whole. And before the safety of the flying public would ever come into question, the traffic would be flowed.
I mean, we do that now when there is thunderstorm activity. We do it now for weather events. We do it for security events. So before the safety became a question, the traffic would be flowed.
Now, there might be inconveniences. Clearly, if traffic continues to grow and control numbers continue to fall, you could face increases in delays, you could face inconveniences. But it's never going to be a question of safety. Safety is our business, and business is very, very good.
CHUNG: So what can be done to solve the problem? Why don't you take that first, Mr. Byrnes.
BYRNES: Well, number one, it takes three to five years to train an air traffic controller. Plus, you want that individual to have seasoning. So with the two-thirds of the controllers being eligible to retire, at that same time, passengers are going to go from 700 million to 1 billion passengers.
CHUNG: Oh my gosh.
BYRNES: So a 30 percent increase, two-third decrease in air traffic controllers. So what we really need to do now is start -- let me start training the controllers, along John and all the other people, so we can get these people up to speed. And it would be like, you know, me coming to take your job and sitting down and you saying, take it easy and not giving me any of the background.
So it's vitally important that we get these people, you know, hired now within the next three to four years and get them trained, get them checked out so, you know, we can build this up (ph).
CHUNG: Is this a job that people do want? I mean, I would imagine -- you were saying, I've heard how stressful it is, I'm not going to train for that job.
CARR: No, I have to tell you that it is probably one of the most gratifying jobs in all of federal service. And it is a federal government job. It is an inherently governmental function. Clearly the safety of the flying public is an inherent governmental function.
CHUNG: I understand. But, I mean, do you find that people do apply for this job?
CARR: I believe so. And the FAA is probably guilty of not marketing it as well as they could. I think if you market it well enough and let people know how rewarding this type of work can be, then you're going to have a great, great talent pool from which to pull.
CHUNG: Number one reward?
BYRNES: I think the satisfaction of doing the job...
CHUNG: Safely?
BYRNES: Yes, oh, absolutely. That's my number one priority.
CHUNG: All right, Barrett Byrnes, thank you so much. John Carr, appreciate it.
Still ahead: Why would a little league coach ask his own team to lose? We'll talk to the Little Leaguers who say that's exactly what happened to them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Why would a Little League coach tell his players to do the one thing they've always fought the hardest against, to lose? That's what some New Jersey Little Leaguers are wondering tonight.
CNN's Josie Karp explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Kearny, New Jersey, a working class community across the river from Manhattan, summer and Little League go hand in hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're so cute, aren't they?
KARP (on camera): How important is Little League in this community?
STEVE BOGNER, FORMER KEARNY RESIDENT: It's very important. I mean, they got hundreds of kids from all over the area to come and -- you know, this place is -- you know, the kids are here. It's like the summertime breeds a whole new life here.
KARP (voice-over): This season, some kids claim their coaches came up with a whole new set of rules, and instructed them to try the lose, not win.
MITCH RICHARDSON, KEARNY, NJ LITTLE LEAGUE PLAYER: They asked us if we wanted to throw it away. And half of the team said yes and half of them said no. And I was one of them that said no.
KARP: Richardson is a member of the Kearny National All-Star team that played the Kearny American All-Star team on July 12.
According to the 11-year-old and several other players, two coaches gathered the team together before the game and told them to lose.
RICHARDSON: We were really mad because we wanted to play our hardest and try to beat the other Kearny team.
KARP: When one parent of a team member heard about the allegation, she took action.
CYNTHIA FORD, KEARNY, NJ, LITTLE LEAGUE RESIDENT: It just really upsets me that they had the nerve to do that to our kids; that you hope as a parent that you would teach them values and sportsmanship, competition. I mean, that's why you're there.
I went home that night and I sat down to about 2:00 in the morning and I typed an e-mail. I sent it to the Little League Eastern Division.
KARP: CNN efforts to contact the two coaches, Larry Davidson and Justin Raia were not successful, but they have denied it to local newspapers.
Both the coaches and the kids have their defenders in the community.
VERA RAIA, MOTHER OF JUSTIN RAIA: Nobody would tell children to throw a game. That's ridiculous. Children want to win. Everybody wants to win.
CRAIG SMITH, KEARNY, NJ LITTLE LEAGUE COACH: Absolutely. There's not a doubt in my mind, those kids wouldn't lie about something like that.
KARP (on camera): A spokesman for Little League World Headquarters said the organization is overseeing an investigation into exactly what happened here in Kearny.
The local league president and the district administrator have been asked to ascertain the details and report back with their findings. According to the spokesmen, there's no real time pressure to conclude the investigation immediately because both teams have already been knocked out of this year's tournament.
Josie Karp, CNN, Kearny, New Jersey.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: We'll be going to two of the players and one of the player's moms in just a moment.
But first let's go back to the floor of the House of Representatives now. Congressman James Traficant is speaking on his own behalf as the full House prepares to vote on expelling him.
Let's listen.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
TRAFICANT: ... she later called and recanted after they put her in prospective custody for eight weeks, paid $800 to keep her dogs in Kentucky, then brought her to the grand jury twice.
And when she said that Jim Traficant committed no crimes, then they demeaned her. But through the process, they told her to insure her safety, to go public.
Now, if you're a juror, and you've heard about a Jim Traficant, if that isn't poisoning a voir dire, what is?
But then the next one that was in the national news was a $150,000 barn addition. Now, I'm an old sheriff.
CHUNG: It's true, he is an old sheriff. He used to be a sheriff in Ohio. And now he's facing the toughest fight of his life, actually: possibly expulsion -- likely expulsion from the House of Representatives, where he served for a long 18 years.
We'll get back to it.
Cynthia Ford now, whom you just saw in that report by Josie Karp, joins me now, along with her son, pitcher Derek Cowley and team right fielder Mitch Richardson.
Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate it.
FORD: Thanks for having us.
CHUNG: All right, let's start with you, Derek.
What did the coaches say to you all about this important game that you were about to play?
DEREK COWLEY, PITCHER: The union game? They said -- they sat us down and asked us, what do you want to do with the Kearny game tomorrow? And do you want to win, or do you want to lose it on purpose?
And so we said...
CHUNG: Lose on purpose?
COWLEY: Yes, give them a chance, because they were seven-and- one, we were one-and-seven. And if they beat us, they would play Millburn to see who would...
CHUNG: Then go on to the Little League World Series?
COWLEY: Yes.
CHUNG: So you would be giving them a shot at going. You didn't have a chance because your record was not very good.
COWLEY: Yes.
CHUNG: OK, go ahead.
COWLEY: And some of the kids said -- most of the kids said no, we want the play, and a little of them said, yes, we could -- we'll play. And that's...
CHUNG: Did you actually take a vote?
COWLEY: No. No.
CHUNG: You don't remember a vote. Mitch, you were there, too, right?
MITCH RICHARDSON, RIGHT FIELDER: Yes.
CHUNG: And how do you remember it going? The two coaches are sitting there talking to all the guys. And what did they say?
RICHARDSON: They said if we want to throw the game or try to win it? And part of the team said we want to try to win it. Part of this team said, no. And that's about it.
CHUNG: That was it?
RICHARDSON: Yes.
CHUNG: Did you know that it was wrong or did you think there was something wrong with the coaches asking you to throw the game?
COWLEY: I think there was like, we should have -- why throw a game for them? We should play. That's why we're here.
CHUNG: But I mean, when you were sitting there, and the coach was saying this to you, did you say to yourself, I don't think this is right?
COWLEY: Yes, I said that.
CHUNG: Mitch?
RICHARDSON: Yes, I said that, too.
CHUNG: You didn't want to go along? Did both of you vote to go ahead and play the game as you always do?
COWLEY: Yes.
RICHARDSON: Yes.
CHUNG: So tell me what did happen when you played the game?
COWLEY: Well, the coaches said, oh, we'll play hard now. But then our pitcher Manfredy (ph), Mike Manfredy (ph), he was pitching in the fourth inning and we were only down 4-2, and they kept him in and he was tired.
CHUNG: You knew he was tired.
COWLEY: Yes.
CHUNG: How did you know? Was he was tired, Mitch?
RICHARDSON: Yes, he was.
COWLEY: Because I was catching and he was throwing all balls.
CHUNG: Right. And actually you're the best pitcher on the team, right, among all these All-Stars. And you were played the day before. So you weren't pitching, you were sitting in a different position. You were a catcher.
COWLEY: Yes. CHUNG: Mitch, when you -- when you actually played the game, did you think everybody was doing what we normally do in terms of trying to do their best?
RICHARDSON: Yes, only part of them, because some of them were letting balls go right through their legs and that they weren't trying their hardest.
CHUNG: Did any -- did either of you tell your parents what happened before the game started?
COWLEY: No.
RICHARDSON: No.
COWLEY: I told my brother, Blane (ph), that's all.
CHUNG: Why didn't you tell your parents?
COWLEY: I don't really want to tell her, I don't know why.
CHUNG: What about you, Mitch?
RICHARDSON: I told my mom as soon as after the union game. And I was thinking about not going to it.
CHUNG: You were actually thinking of not going to this game that the coach had asked you to throw?
RICHARDSON: Yes. But I wanted to play baseball because I like the game. And I wanted to just try to win.
CHUNG: Why were you thinking of not going to the game?
RICHARDSON: Because I didn't want to like lose the game on purpose and not have fun doing it.
CHUNG: Cynthia, you found out from another parent, didn't you?
FORD: That's correct.
CHUNG: And what did you think when you heard that the coaches actually said to throw the game?
FORD: I was shocked. I was literally shocked. And within three seconds I went up to the field and I called Derek over, and I said Derek...
CHUNG: Your son.
FORD: Yes, my son. I said Derek, could you please come over here? And he looked at me, and I said, what is this? The coaches asked you to throw the game? And he kind of looked at me. He was nervous because he knew that his mom is vocal and she would stand up for him, which, of course, she did.
CHUNG: She's not lying, though, right?
FORD: And I said to him, I said Derek, that is cheating. They are asking you to cheat. He says, Mom, calm down, calm down. I said, I will pull you off this field so quick. He says, no, Mom, we're going to play. And I said OK.
CHUNG: But you didn't stop there. I mean, after a while it must have been sticking in your mind, right?
FORD: It was sticking in my mind because after Derek's team, my 10-year-old son is also on the All-Star team. I went to his game. He had a game away. And I was -- as I was telling one of the parents what had happened, another parent said, well, it was done two years ago.
CHUNG: No!
FORD: The same thing was done, was asked of a pitcher two years ago on the national team.
CHUNG: Little League.
FORD: Little League. Exact same -- I don't know who the coaches were. And I said, this is it. This has to stop. I went home, about 10:00 p.m. at night. I sat on my computer, I looked -- went to the littleleague.com, read their rules, read what was supposed to happen, what the addresses were. And I sat for a couple hours and put together an e-mail and sent it off.
CHUNG: Sent it to...
FORD: The Eastern Division of Little League...
CHUNG: And you sent it to they mayor?
FORD: I sent -- I copied the mayor and the "Star Ledger," and the only one up until yesterday that had gotten back to me was the "Star Ledger," which the last person I thought, because I thought that maybe if the Little League sees that I did that, then they will -- would respond a little bit faster. And as of -- I did not check my e- mail today, but as of today they have not responded.
CHUNG: Still unresponsive. All right. Now, the two coaches -- we tried to get in touch with them, but they didn't agree to do any kind of interview. But the "Star Ledger," you know, the paper that you sent the information to, did quote them as saying, and one of them is Larry Davidson. He said, "Nothing was ever said about purposely losing the game. I've been coaching in Kearny Little League for 15 years, and I have never had a problem with anything. Now I'm hearing this, that I threw a game? And then the other one is Justin Raia, and he said, "The only thing that I told the kids was to go out and play hard no matter what happens."
Mitch, are these coaches lying?
RICHARDSON: Yes, because Justin Raia asked us if we wanted to throw the game. But I didn't hear Larry Davidson say anything. I only heard Justin Raia.
CHUNG: Derek?
COWLEY: They're lying, because I heard both of them. In the union game, they both said if you want to play the game or you want to throw it.
CHUNG: Oh, why would they do that? Really? Do you think that the kids misunderstanding something?
FORD: Not when you have five, six, seven, eight kids saying the same thing. Not when these coaches admitted to two of the other parents on our team. I don't think so, especially after I heard it happen before from this one particular parent.
I believe my children. They are honest. I believe Mitch and the other kids who came forward as well. I think that the reason they did it was because they felt, let's put Kearny on the map. It would have been the first time for a Kearny team to just advance to the next round.
Was that the right thing to do? Absolutely not. That is not good sportsmanship.
CHUNG: No.
FORD: Good sportsmanship would have been to ask our kids, come root the other Kearny team on, come to the away game against Millburn (ph). That's what good sportsmanship is, not asking them to help them lose.
CHUNG: Mitch, what do you think about baseball now? About Little League?
RICHARDSON: I think that you should always still try your hardest, no matter what. Now I'm going to try out for the American All-Star next year, because I don't want the same thing to happen again.
CHUNG: Oh, you don't even want to be in this league?
RICHARDSON: I'd still want to play Little League, because I have one more year.
CHUNG: Right.
RICHARDSON: But I don't want to try out for the National.
CHUNG: Right. That's what I'm saying, you don't want to be in the National League, you want to try out for the American League.
You know what? I want to read this to you, Derek. This is another kid who's in a different Little League, but he says my coaches treat the game as if we were professionals.
I think adults forget that we're kids, just out having a good time. When people start to yell and scream at us, that's when I want to put down my glove and walk away.
You know?
COWLEY: He's right.
CHUNG: Really?
COWLEY: Yes.
CHUNG: Is that the way you feel...
COWLEY: Yes.
CHUNG: ...99 percent of the time.
COWLEY: Yes, 99 percent of the time.
CHUNG: Yes. You know what? I want to say this, because maybe somebody out there is thinking it. Oh, you know, you're just like a soccer mom, you know, who is just pushing your son to go out there, and that's why you're outraged.
FORD: Absolutely not. I am outraged because how dare those coaches think so little? They thought so little of my son and the other kids on that team. That's why I'm outraged. I didn't do this -- never in a million years would I have thought that I would have been here. Would I do it again? Absolutely. Because we have pride, and they totally underminded the dignity, the ethics, the morals that their coaches taught them for the past three and four years, and what I've taught them. That's why I did it.
CHUNG: Once again, we did invite both coaches to come on and talk to us, but they declined. Did your mom do the right thing?
COWLEY: Yes, she did.
CHUNG: So you don't mind her being a little outspoken once in a while?
COWLEY: Yes.
CHUNG: Yes? OK. Thank you, Cynthia, thank you, Derek, and thank you, Mitch, for being with us.
When we come back, the market bounced back big time. Part of the reason is that bad news is good news. We'll explain why right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: If you've been following the markets, well, you're probably pretty darn dizzy right now. Today after months of slip sliding away, the Dow Jones Industrial Average went into an overdrive, roaring up 488 points to close at 8191. People were buying big time. But will it last? CNNfn's Christine Romans spends her days watching the mayhem on the floor stock exchange and she's come Uptown to join us.
Thank you.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You're welcome.
CHUNG: All right. What caused this surge?
ROMANS: Listen, it was powerful. It was a lot of buying. It was a record day at the New York Stock Exchange, 2.8 billion shares changing hands, most of that buying. People were buying anything that had been beaten down badly. So you saw a lot of stocks like financial stocks, and the consumer product stocks rallying like 10 percent, 15 percent. But keep in mind those stocks have been down 50 percent. So this is good old fashioned bargain hunting. People started to get brave and started to buy some stocks.
CHUNG: And who was buying?
ROMANS: Well, a little bit of everybody. Some of the big retail firms were saying that, you know, they were starting to get calls from their average investor, you and me on the street, calling up and saying, what have I got to lose? Put $1,000 in X stock. So they were starting to see that. Also some of the big mutual funds were buying for their clients. They've had a lot of money in cash because they've really been hurt. So they were starting to put some money to work as well.
CHUNG: Is the president and the SEC, Harvey Pitt, are they going to be preening and saying it's because we've been talking about the crackdown on corporate crooks?
ROMANS: I don't think they can take much credit for it, actually. Because they've been talking about it for some time now and the stock market is just starting to start maybe to show some signs of life. Until now, Wall Street has been underwhelmed by what it's seen from Washington, frankly. But you did have the House and the Senate in a committee today sort of hammering out the details and the final corporate responsibility bill. That helped.
Also, you had handcuffs put on the hands of some executives of a company called Adelphia. They were charged. That was the famous perp walk. Everyone on Wall Street was watching that. In a way, it is bad news, but it helps because investors are saying, look, they're cracking down, that's what we want to see.
CHUNG: All right. I think we just have a little time left. Important question, will it last?
ROMANS: I'd love to say tomorrow you're going to see a 500-point rally, but I don't know if I can say that. Everyone keeps telling me that a bottom in a bear market is not one day. It is a process. And so there could be more pain ahead. If you're brave, step in maybe, the experts are saying, because we haven't seen a rally like this since back in 1987. And look at how far the market's come since 1987.
CHUNG: All right. Thank you so much.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
CHUNG: Good to see you. We'll have you back if you can.
ROMANS: OK.
CHUNG: All right. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow, we'll ask the mayor of Kearny, New Jersey, what he's doing about the claim that Little Leaguers were told to throw a game. To get a preview of our program every day, sign up for our daily e-mail by logging on to CNN.com/Connie. And coming up next, don't miss LARRY KING LIVE, Dominick Dunne is on. Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and I'll see you tomorrow, OK?
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