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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Investigators Try to Find Cause of Pennsylvania Mining Accident; Westerfield Trial Enters Critical Phase; New Springsteen Album Creates Furor

Aired July 30, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight, the investigation. Who is responsible for the Pennsylvania mining accident?

ANNOUNCER: Danger down below. Inaccurate maps, abandoned water water-filled shafts. Getting to the bottom of the Quecreek Mine accident.

Plus, CNN's Jeff Flock takes us deep into a coal mine. What is it really like down there?

The man accused of the kidnapping and murder of Danielle van Dam will soon learn his fate. Tonight, inside the courtroom of the David Westerfield trial.

Did four soldiers murder their wives?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of them were having a lot of difficulty in their marriage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Are some soldiers unable to leave the war on the battlefield?

The boss, Bruce Springsteen, rises again, singing about work, hope, and American life. Tonight, two 9/11 widows who inspired America's working-class poet/songwriter.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight, the near tragedy at Quecreek Mine. It could have cost 18 people their lives. Who is responsible? And how can it be prevented from happening again? We have two CNN correspondents on the story. Above ground is David Mattingly, who has been focusing on the investigation. And underground in a nearby mine is CNN's Jeff Flock, who is going to give us a first-hand account of what it's like down there.

Jeff, hang in there for a few minutes. Are you OK?

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're good, Connie. We've been in a crumbling mine all day. What can I say. The only difference between us and Quecreek nine is that I can leave when I'm done.

CHUNG: Thank goodness. Thank you.

Let's go to David Mattingly first in Somerset. David, what is the latest on the investigation?

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Connie, everyone would like to know why the map, the underground map that the miners were using was so bad that it almost cost them their lives. These maps are required by law. They're supposed to give a very accurate accounting of all the locations of the tunnels and the shafts of all underground mines.

There is supposed to be a 200-foot buffer when digging around abandoned tunnels. The miners here thought they were 300 feet away, that is more than enough to be safe. But the map they were using was wrong. They burrowed right through the wall and into the flooded mine.

Now, as always, there are investigations afterwards. State and federal agencies after a mine accident will go in and investigate like this. This time, the governor of Pennsylvania is setting up his own investigation. A commission has been set up that will explore everything from designs, rescue response, permit and safety procedures, and, of course, those maps. They want to see if there are any problems, any mistakes made anywhere on the ground or in the bureaucracy that might have caused this to happen or might have been overlooked, and they want to make sure it doesn't happen again -- Connie.

CHUNG: David, will there be two parallel investigations between the federal government and the state?

MATTINGLY: State agencies and federal agencies that are concerned with mines will all be conducting their normal investigations. What the governor is doing is separate from those. It's more long-term, to see if there is a problem with the system to make sure it doesn't happen again.

CHUNG: All right. David, who are the -- who is responsible for these maps?

MATTINGLY: The companies that are down there digging, the mine companies that are digging are responsible for them. They're supposed to keep track of everywhere they're digging down there. And we're told that when a mine closes, they're supposed to submit these maps, accurate maps, to the state, to the appropriate state agency.

It was just this kind of map that the miners at the Quecreek Mine were using. And today, management at the mine took us down to the site where the miners normally enter the mine to show us the work that's going on there today. And they are anxious to get to the bottom of what went wrong there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID REBUCK, BLACK WOLF COAL COMPANY: As the water level recedes, we will get back in to where this accident occurred and then it will be determined just what did happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: And, Connie, it could take some time for them to get to that location because they're pumping 24 hours, seven days a week. But it is a very slow process.

CHUNG: All right. David Mattingly, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Now, joining me now from Harrisburg is David Hess, Pennsylvania's director of environmental protection. Sir, you know, you have been sort of the face of reassurance and the face of optimism. It's good to see you again. We appreciate it.

DAVID HESS, SECRETARY, PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION: Thank you, Connie.

CHUNG: No, it's really true. You have one of those kind faces that makes us all believe that everything is going to be OK. And, in fact, you were right. Tell me, is there any way to check the voracity of these maps, because it's obvious that the maps were the problem?

HESS: Well, the two investigations that will be underway, one is the regular investigation that was referred to earlier by the state and federal agencies, but Governor Schweiker has appointed a special commission. And we are going to not only look at the accuracy of the maps, for example, we are now in the process of tracing the person who actually put the seal and certified the map for the abandoned mine. And we are hoping that we can still track him down because that was done in about 1963.

We will also be looking at the map and the surveys done in the new mine, because it could be that there might have been mistakes in surveying the new mine, so that the miners, although they believe they were in one place, might have actually been in another. So we will look at the whole thing.

CHUNG: When the company began looking at the mine, is it possible for the company to verify the map, any particular map that it was using?

HESS: Well, in cases like this, the company is responsible for giving us, the agency that issues the permits, the accurate information. And we do our best, and based on the experience that we have with the mining operations in the area, try to verify that information. The other way that is used to, in the final instance, verify that information, is when they are actually operating the mine. They oftentimes drill holes, small holes ahead of where they're mining so that they know what's out in front of them.

CHUNG: And was that done? Was that done?

HESS: Pardon me?

CHUNG: Do you know if that was done?

HESS: We don't know if that was done in this case. That will be one point that will be part of the investigation.

CHUNG: So was the mine also surveyed, do you know?

HESS: The mine was surveyed. We know that at least where we found the miners, the map seemed to be accurate because it was used to place that six-inch hole and then the rescue shafts.

CHUNG: I see. Now, a retired miner, and I'm sure you do know about this, a retired miner said that he believes the company that was excavating in that particular area years ago had taken the last day and was grabbing all of the coal that it could grab and, therefore, didn't want anyone to know that, didn't want the government to know what it was up to. And that is why the map was inaccurate. Do you know if that is true?

HESS: We can only take his word for it. Those miners who may have participated in that certainly are not someone that we can question. But that retreat mining, it's called, robbing pillars as you retreat out of a mine is something that is very common. And that information along with other information is going to be used by us in the investigation to pinpoint what happened.

CHUNG: Why can't you interview them? Were you suggesting that you can't, in your investigation, talk to these retired miners?

HESS: No. In fact, that information is very valuable. And oftentimes, we get good information when we have an investigation like this from retired miners, people who are familiar with the abandoned mine. After all, it was abandoned sometime in the late 1950s, early 1960s, and there should be some miners around that worked there.

CHUNG: I read a quote from you that you thought Pennsylvania had outdated mining laws. Was that accurate?

HESS: Well, one of the things we are looking at is our basic mine safety law was put into effect in 1961. And that law is very prescriptive. In other words, it requires right in the law that there is to be a 200-foot buffer, a solid rock between old mines and new mines and it's very prescriptive. One of the things that Governor Schweiker's commission is going to look at is does that law give us enough flexibility to update our safely requirements. So, the governor's investigation is going to be fairly broad.

CHUNG: What kind of track record does the company, what is it called, Black Wolf, have?

HESS: Yes. Their track record actually has been pretty good. They've been subjected to a number of inspections since they opened a little more than a year ago. They've had some violations, some electrical violations, a roof fall. But, on the whole, it's not out of the ordinary. They would have what I would call probably a pretty average compliance record.

CHUNG: Do you expect someone to be held liable? In other words, do we expect some criminal or civil action?

HESS: Well, the joint federal/state investigation will determine that. Certainly, the coal operator is liable for actions within the mine and for giving our department accurate and good information. But you have to be seeing who is actually to blame for this. We have a lot of different paths to follow.

CHUNG: All right. David Hess, thank you so much for being with us. I'm sure we will check in with you again at some point.

HESS: Thank you.

CHUNG: We are going to turn now to CNN's Jeff Flock, and you know you're in trouble with the boss when you're assigned to spend the day in a deep, dark hole. Jeff, are you OK?

FLOCK: You know, it's been my dream to be down in a coal mine. I'm sorry that it took this to do it, but that's where I am, about 500 feet down, Connie.

CHUNG: You know, I was wondering how far down. Are you able to breathe okay? I'm a little concerned about you. Is the air (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for you to breathe?

FLOCK: Well, this is an abandoned mine, not unlike the Saxmon (ph) mine, abandoned about the same time, as a matter of fact. But you know, what we wanted to do was give you a sense for what these guys were up against. This room that I am in is about the same size they were in.

And you can tell -- I don't know if you can, I'm six foot tall -- about four feet, that's what they were dealing with, and I'm cramping up, almost, in here. And as you can see, it's a fairly tight area -- nine guys up in here.

So as I told you earlier, the difference is when this broadcast is over, I can just go on up, but they didn't have the same option.

CHUNG: That's really quite incredible. How solid are those walls there? Are you OK?

FLOCK: I want to come out, if I can. Yes, you know, it's just kind of tough getting through here, but I want to bring in one of the old miners here to say the answer to that question. How are you, Jake?

JAKE MILLER, RETIRED COAL MINER: OK.

FLOCK: How solid are these walls, Connie is asking. Get behind me here and maybe John can see -- give it a rap or two.

MILLER: This has been exposed to the air, so it's a little softer, but it's pretty hard there.

FLOCK: But now if another guy is mining out here and you have a flooded area, it doesn't take much to go ahead and break through?

MILLER: The water could push that through. It just depends how much water pressure they got behind there, how much coal is going to push through there.

FLOCK: And down the other direction, this mine is flooded, correct?

MILLER: Yes, down that...

FLOCK: Let's take a walk down there, if we can.

MILLER: About a quarter mile, half a mile in there, the hill -- the hole seam dips down. There's water over on that side.

FLOCK: Gotcha.

MILLER: It would never come over on this side because we're higher over here than what the water is over there.

FLOCK: I hear you. So we're not in danger of being flooded, Connie, at this moment, at least I think.

CHUNG: Thank goodness. How safe is it there, Jeff?

FLOCK: How -- what is that?

CHUNG: How safe is it there?

FLOCK: Oh, how safe -- well, probably what confused you was the danger sign we just passed. But I'm going to put this one to Jake also, and as we look, I don't know, John, are you able to see down in there? Boy, this was a classic shot of a mine, an abandoned mine. You feel safe where we're walking?

MILLER: Oh, yes. Yes, I got a lot of experience in mining up in Boston for 20-some years, and if it wasn't safe in here, I wouldn't be here.

FLOCK: So I think we feel reasonably good about it, Connie.

CHUNG: All right. Can you, imagine, Jeff, working in a dark mine like that day in and day out?

FLOCK: Well, you know, I tell you, in order to do that, take a look at these guys back here, a couple of fellows that are miners. Again, this is a very characteristic space, right? This is where you guys work?

MILLER: Yes, this is a regular looks like what that -- the mines they were working in. The entry is about 20 feet wide and they're four feet high, and they've got a 20, or 11 foot wide machine, with 30 feet long -- it would take up half that space, and the other half you got to crawl around to work in.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

FLOCK: The deal is, and go ahead, come on out, guys, to show us just how easy it is to get out of there or perhaps not easy. Can you imagine a wall of water behind those guys, Connie, coming that way? This is what these guys had to deal with. And two pretty experienced guys down in the mines. This is them moving out fairly rapidly. But as you can see, it was not easy to escape this.

CHUNG: Jeff, that is incredible. You know what, Jeff, I give you a lot of credit for being down there all day. And you know what? I want you to tell us who your camera person is, because he's probably having a heck of a time of with a camera on his shoulder.

FLOCK: Well, he is. And I'll tell you, he's hit his head on a couple -- come on underneath, Jon, Jonathan Share (ph) up underneath here. I'm just going to make him do one more hard thing. You know, if you think it's hard to get out of here just as a miner, what happens if I ask him to go ahead and follow me along here? We've hit our head, and he's hit his head, numerous times, up on this top here.

You know, I really do think, Connie, this really gives you a sense of what a miner goes through. You know, in the winter, a guy comes in on the day shift. He goes in before the sun comes up, he goes home after the sun goes down. He sees the sun only on Sunday. That's a miner.

CHUNG: All right. CNN's Jeff Flock, thank you. You have to go home now.

Still ahead, how a massive loss of life led to a gift of very personal music from Bruce Springsteen. We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Next, the man accused of killing Danielle van Dam will soon have his fate resting in the hands of a jury. The dramatic final hours inside the courtroom. CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: One of the first kidnap-murder cases to spark media attention this year was the killing of Danielle van Dam. The trial of her accused killer, David Westerfield, is nearing a crucial stage. Where is the trial going and what have we learned? We asked CNN's Thelma Gutierrez in San Diego to tell us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF DUSEK, PROSECUTOR: You'll find the evidence is sufficient to convict him of murder-kidnapping.

STEVE FELDMAN, WESTERFIELD'S ATTORNEY: We have doubts as to the identity of Danielle van Dam's killer. We have doubts as to who left her where she resided -- where she remained. And we have doubts as to who took her.

THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The murder trial of 50-year-old David Westerfield is now in its seventh week. Almost 100 witnesses have testified.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's an emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's the emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter is not in her bed this evening. She's only seven.

GUTIERREZ: Jurors heard the chilling 911 call made by Danielle van Dam's mother the morning of February 2.

DUSEK: How old was she?

BRENDA VAN DAM, MOTHER OF SLAIN GIRL: She was seven.

GUTIERREZ: They heard Brenda van Dam painfully recount the moments when she discovered her 7-year-old was missing.

DUSEK: If you want some time, Ma'am, I think once the first cry is over, then usually you're able to go.

GUTIERREZ: But jurors also heard embarrassing testimony about the grieving parents' personal lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the details that you left out was your marijuana use the night preceding, isn't that true?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

GUTIERREZ: Under intense questioning by the defense, the van Dams admitted to occasionally smoking marijuana and to participating in adult parties.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the year 2000, you engaged in sex with Denise (ph) and Andy (ph) and Brendan (ph) and -- I'm sorry, and Denny (ph)?

VAN DAM: Yes.

GUTIERREZ: The defense alleges the van Dam's so-called swinging lifestyle could have exposed Danielle to other suspects besides Westerfield.

JENNIFER SHEN, CRIMINALIST, SAN DIEGO POLICE: The fiber taken from the victim's necklace could share a common source with the fibers from the laundry. GUTIERREZ: But the prosecution says the issue isn't the van Dam's lifestyle but the physical evidence in the case -- Danielle's hair, fibers from her clothing, and blood allegedly found in Westerfield's home and motor home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For those could include images of children who are either nude or partially clothed?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

GUTIERREZ: They played for jurors disturbing images of child pornography allegedly found on Westerfield's computers. The defense argued that some of the pornographic images may have been downloaded by Westerfield's 18-year-old son.

NEIL WESTERFIELD, WESTERFIELD'S SON: I found some on his computer and I found some on disks in his office.

GUTIERREZ: On the stand, the son said the pornography was not his.

NEIL HASKELL, ENTOMOLOGIST: Decomposition is a progression.

GUTIERREZ: Danielle's body was so badly decomposed, it has made it nearly impossible to answer critical questions like when exactly Danielle was kidnapped and murdered, and when her body was dumped, or whether or not she was sexually abused. Expert witnesses will continue to testify. Closing arguments should begin next week. Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, San Diego.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Since day one, Court TV reporter Beth Karas has been inside that courtroom. She joins us tonight from San Diego along with our CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Thank you Beth and Jeffrey for joining us.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Connie.

CHUNG: Hi, Jeffrey.

Beth, starting with you, I know the day in court was spent on the whole question of time of death. Why is that significant?

BETH KARAS, REPORTER, COURT TV: Danielle van Dam's body was so decomposed that they cannot determine her cause of death, and they also can't determine how long she had been outside. The defense wants to show that her body was placed where it was found on this road, beside the road and under a shrubs, sometime after Westerfield was under surveillance by police as of February 4.

And they have done that. They have experts who say the insects, based on the insects' activity and the stage of development on her decomposed body, she was there, sometime placed there sometime between February 12, around the 14th, maybe as late as the 21st, but not February 2 or 3, which was the weekend she went missing and Westerfield was under police surveillance from February 4 on. So he couldn't have done it is what the defense is saying. Now, if he didn't dump her body, then he didn't kill her, is what they're saying.

CHUNG: All right. Jeffrey, is too much emphasis being placed on that whole question of time and death, do you think?

TOOBIN: Well, I think the defense has really suckered the prosecution a little bit her because there has been so much testimony about time of death, so much testimony about how maggots act, how they eat, how they develop that the prosecution risks losing sight -- having the jury lose sight of what they say is the main issue in the case, which is DNA.

The prosecutors say, and they have proved unrefuted in this trial, that Danielle van Dam's blood is in Westerfield's trailer. End of story as far as prosecutors are concerned. Instead, there have been days and days of testimony about time of death. And especially in a trial that has moved so slowly, they risk losing the impact of what seems to be almost irrefutable evidence of Westerfield's guilt.

CHUNG: Now, Jeffrey, the jury is not being sequestered. Will any of the recent kidnappings and murders of these little girls that we've seen have any impact on the jury, do you think?

TOOBIN: Well, as you can imagine, the defense has been very worried about this. When this trial started, the whole epidemic, it seems, of highly publicized kidnappings had not started. But here, remember, we are only a few miles from where the Runnion case took place.

So, the defense has been saying please sequester this jury, like get them away from the media, and the judge has refused. He's instructed the jury not to pay any attention to the news stories, but the defense says that is not good enough, you have to sequester them. That came up in court again today. The judge has not decided yet whether he is going to sequester them for deliberations. But it's been something the defense has been very worried about.

CHUNG: Beth, I was fascinated last week with the son's testimony. Westerfield's son was testifying against his father. Was it significant, was it important, do you think?

KARAS: No question, Connie. It is clear that Neal Westerfield's testimony was a turning point in this case. He was a rebuttal witness for the state. But there are people, and I talked to a lot of people in this community, I've been in San Diego all summer, and people are split here. A lot of people speculated that maybe the son, who lived half the time with his father, was there, at least later that weekend, that Monday, February 4. Maybe he had something to do with it. Maybe he was responsible.

His testimony locked up his alibi. He could not have had anything to do with it. He also says this child pornography, which the jury knows about and Westerfield is charged with possessing, and the state says goes to the motive in this case, he says he didn't download it, that it was his father. So, he was very damaging to the defense, very helpful to the prosecution.

TOOBIN: And I think what makes him especially damaging is that he's not estranged from his father. I mean, he says he loves his father and they're not -- they don't have a contentious relationship. So, even though he loves his father, he did tell the jury, look, that child pornography was not mine, makes it extremely damaging testimony.

CHUNG: You put that with the reported swinging lifestyle of the van Dams and this really turns out to be a very strange case. Thank you Jeffrey. Thank you, Beth, for being with us.

Coming up, it's not combat. But in past six weeks, Ft. Bragg has seen four killings of Army wives. What is going on? Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, the Boss is back singing songs and remembering some 9/11.

While Bruce rocks the boardwalk, we'll meet his inspiration when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Over the course of six weeks at Ft. Bragg in North Carolina, four Army wives were killed. Two of the husbands also died. Who did it? The answer, according to officials, is not a foreign enemy, but an enemy within.

Ft. Bragg, North Carolina is the elite training ground for the U.S. Army special operations. It's here, just off the base, where four soldiers allegedly murdered their wives. Two of those special forces soldiers committed suicide. June 11, according to police, Sergeant First Class Rigoberto Nieves shot his wife Teresa in the head and then killed himself with the same pistol.

July 19, Sergeant First Class Brandon Floyd allegedly killed his wife, Andrea, and himself in another apparent murder-suicide. The same night, Sergeant William Wright confessed to strangling his wife, Jennifer, two weeks before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF EARL BUTLER, CUMBERLAND COUNTY: Sergeant Wright led detectives to his wife's body, which he had buried on June 29 in a remote wooded area off Plank Road on the Ft. Bragg military reservation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: They had been married for 14 years and have three children together. All three soldiers had returned from action in Afghanistan. Cedric Ramon Griffin did not serve there. On July 9, he was charged with stabbing his estranged wife, Marilyn, 50 times before setting her on fire. Cumberland County Sheriff Earl Butler wonders whether the stresses of deployment and military life played a role in these tragedies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUTLER: I think this could very easily bring about the homicides that we've seen. Now, I'm not saying it did, but I think it very easily could have precipitated this type of behavior among these people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Another theory is the murders had little to do with military life, but instead were the sad result of long-standing domestic problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. SAM PENNICA, HOMICIDE COMMANDER: All of them were having a lot of difficulty in their marriage and some of them have had difficulty for a long time or a number of years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Four wives slain, two soldiers dead, and two more in jail awaiting probable murder charges as an Army town asks why and struggles for answers.

Ft. Bragg gave us a statement which said, quote, "our military community remains surprised and saddened by the usual number of recent tragedies. We firmly believe that our family advocacy program and other support services are extremely beneficial. However, we are committed to look closely at each situation to determine if anything could have been done differently, if existing programs need to be changed, with the ultimate intent to prevent this from ever happening again."

Two of the men leading the police search for answers are Cumberland County Sheriff Earl Butler and homicide Lieutenant Sam Pennica, joining us from Fayetteville, North Carolina. And joining us from Oak Brook, Illinois, we have CNN military analyst, retired Army General David Grange. Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.

Let's start with Sheriff Butler. Sir, there were four military murders in that short period of time, six weeks, and three of them occurred in your county. It must have been extremely disturbing to you.

BUTLER: Well, any time that we have a murder is disturbing to the community, but to have three in the Cumberland County area that are military related is so highly unusual. We haven't never had this type of incidents to happen in this order. So, it's been a real disturbing situation for this county.

CHUNG: Do you think it was just a coincidence or do you think the murders were related?

BUTLER: No, I don't think the murders are related. I think they were all separate. But, you know, what brought on the murders, of course, we know there was a domestic violence played a big part in it. But they lived in different areas. They were assigned to different groups in the military. So, you know, it was just -- they were different.

CHUNG: Over to you, Lieutenant Pennica, do you believe that they might have been copycat murders?

PENNICA: No, I don't think so. I don't think that is the case at all. Particularly one reason is in the Wright case, the Griffin case happened first, in which we discovered the body. In the Wright case, she was actually murdered on June the 29th and we never discovered the body until the 19th of July. So, I don't think there is any copycat involved there.

CHUNG: Now, three of the four men had returned from duty from Afghanistan. Do you think that was just a coincidence or was it directly related in some way or another?

PENNICA: Well, I think that is a difficult question to answer without it really being analyzed and looked into, particularly by the military. But from our perspective as civilian law enforcement and looking for the reasons that these occurred, in the three cases that we investigated, the Griffin, Wright and Floyd, they all had marital problems for a number of years. They were complex problems and they were multiple problems within the marriage. And we feel that that is what brought about this tragic incidents.

CHUNG: Did any of the men know each other?

PENNICA: As far as we know, they did not.

CHUNG: But you're proceeding with this on the criminal side, but the military is not? Can the military also pursue an investigation, as far as you know?

PENNICA: Well, the CID is working with us. And once we are completed with the investigation, we will prepare the report for the district attorney's office. At that time, it would be up to the military to ask the district attorney to allow them to prosecute and it will be the district attorney's decision to give those cases to the military or proceed with state charges.

CHUNG: All right. Let's turn to General Grange. General, you were a commander of special forces. Is this a uniquely stressful group of men and women that are put together?

RETIRED GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I believe that the special operating forces habitually deploy more than the rest of the Army. Of course, over the last five, six years, I think the whole Army, the whole military has been excessively deployed around the world, and these multiple deployments, that there is already some type of domestic problems, adds stress to the situation, but I don't think it causes the situation.

CHUNG: All right. Well, you just heard the sheriff and the lieutenant say that they did not think there was any connection between the fact that three of men were deployed in Afghanistan. What do you think?

GRANGE: I don't think Afghanistan has anything to do with it. These same kind of problems existed from Vietnam and other military operations that we've had, our country has had around the world. But when you have domestic problems already and then you have excessive, repeated deployments, then that just exacerbates the situation. So I think that is the situation you have. You have a problem that was there anyway, and then with constant deployments, it just caused maybe more problems. But Afghanistan, I don't think, has anything to do with it.

CHUNG: Now, recent studies show that domestic violence among military occurred two to five times more than among civilians. What do you account for that?

GRANGE: Yes, I've read different reports on this, and I'm not sure what is really accurate and what isn't, if it is higher or not. It tends that in the military, things are reported more readily and so you have more data collected because you have kind of a captive audience and that may be the reason. But, again, you know, the military has its share of domestic violence problems and there is programs that have been put in place over the years, I'm very familiar with those having been a commander in different places. And, usually, they help people out when they -- some are voluntary and some are referred.

CHUNG: Do you think that some military people are reluctant to go for domestic help?

GRANGE: I think just like in the civilian sector, there is always those that do not want the help, that want to handle it themselves. And depending on the severity of the situation, the chain of command can refer someone to certain types of help. But I'm sure in the military, of course, there is some that would reject that help.

CHUNG: Now, the studies that we have seen and experts have told us, that domestic violence is a little more common with younger soldiers as opposed to older. But these were all senior non- commissioned men.

GRANGE: Yes. The special operating forces have more seniority. It's a more mature group of soldiers, used to more stressful situations. In fact, there is a lot of testing, both psychological and physical testing, to bring someone into the special operating forces out of the conventional Army to test how they handle stress. And so, usually, they're a cut of cloth that is trained to do that.

CHUNG: But, in this case, obviously, there is some terrible problem. It has to also include these long periods of separation between husbands and wives and families.

GRANGE: What you have is, Connie, you have families that become dependent on themselves, those that are left behind, on these deployments, male or female, depending on the spouse. As you know, quite a large female population is in the military today. And so either way, either sex, there is a lot of pressure on whoever is behind to handle family matters. And they may not have been the so- called head of the household before the deployment started. So, there is additional stress there.

And then when someone comes back, they demand to have things the way they were, and it's a little bit of a transition period. So that is very tough on the families.

The thing that I think that the military has to look at, actually, the country, is that the military really is very small, considering the amount of requirements placed on them today. And so these repeated deployments call for a force not smaller, but at least the same size, if not larger, than we have today.

CHUNG: All right. Sheriff Butler, Lieutenant Pennica, and David Grange, thank you so much.

GRANGE: Thank you.

CHUNG: When we come back, Bruce Springsteen puts their losses into his songs about September 11. We'll talk with him right after this.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up, Bruce Springsteen reaches out to America's 9/11 survivors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC, "THE RISING")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC, "THE RISING")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Bruce Springsteen, the Boss, doesn't usually show up in the limelight outside of the concerts, but you'll be seeing a lot of him this week, as he promotes his new album "The Rising."

Gotten a lot of attention as his first studio album with the E- Street band in almost two decades. But Springsteen also has some silent partners on the album, silent partners whose moods and experiences he's tried to capture and share with the nation still grieving for those lost on September 11, still struggling with how to move on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC, "THE RISING")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Two of Springsteen's silent partners are Suzanne Berger and Stacy Farrelly. They lost their husbands on September 11, and their stories are part of Springsteen's new songs, and we'll explain that in a minute.

Suzanne, it's great to see you again, because we had the good fortune of being able to talk together and cry together. I did a story about you and your husband and three boys when I was at ABC, so I remember so vividly your telling me your husband, Jim, was an Aeon executive, and the first plane hit the north tower, but he was in the south tower.

He got everybody to leave, even though the building was told everything is fine, stay, you know? And, right?

SUZANNE BERGER, LOST HUSBAND IN 9/11 ATTACK: Right.

CHUNG: He saved -- he was a hero.

BERGER: Right.

CHUNG: And you, I'm sure, were thrilled that he was such a hero, but didn't your boys, your three boys sort of have another thought about it?

BERGER: My oldest son, Nicholas (ph), who was eight at the time, felt that if daddy saved all of those people so they could get home to their children, why didn't he save himself so he could come home to them? And that was a very difficult thing for my son Nicholas to fathom...

CHUNG: Sure.

BERGER: And actually he blamed himself at times.

CHUNG: Your son did?

BERGER: For why daddy didn't come home. Initially that was something that he had questioned me about. What did I do? Was he angry with me? Why didn't he come out?

CHUNG: And then, you had -- there was a hill down the street that your husband used to take the boys...

BERGER: Right.

CHUNG: to play?

BERGER: Right.

CHUNG: And that became what?

BERGER: That became Hero Hill.

CHUNG: Because? BERGER: Because I took the boys there that Sunday morning after September 11 to tell them that their father would not be coming home. And my son Nicholas (ph) actually named it. He's the one that stood up on the hill, and it just reminded him of his dad, and he felt comfortable there, and felt like the hill was a sign of something magnificent and something very comforting, and he said, I'm going to call this Hero Hill, after my dad.

CHUNG: Stacy, your husband was a firefighter, of course, a hero. He was one of the first companies called to the scene, correct?

STACEY FARRELLY, LOST FIRE-FIGHTER HUSBAND JOE ON 9/11: Uh-huh.

And, in fact, the incredible story about him was that he was the leader and he did everything a leader should do. Just the way Suzanne's husband did. Tell me.

FARRELLY: Well, from what I've been told from, I believe it was a lieutenant who recovered him, that all his men were in front of him when he was recovered. They were all going out the door, and he was behind them, you know, face down, kind of pushing them out and made sure they were all together.

CHUNG: Just where he's supposed to be?

FARRELLY: Where he's supposed to be.

CHUNG: Now, one of the amazing things about your husband that I have to let the viewers know about was that he was such a romantic. He used to write you notes?

FARRELLY: All the time.

CHUNG: Where did he leave them?

FARRELLY: I would come out of work, they would be stuck on the dashboard or on the seat; there would be a rose on the seat. If -- when he worked at night, there was always something under my pillow. Or, you know, he would tell me -- you know, there would be a note telling me where the note would be, you know, that kind of thing.

And fortunately I saved every one of them, every card, every -- you know, I mean, every month on the 10th, he always sent flowers because that was when our first date was, August 10; so every 10th.

CHUNG: All right, beautiful stories.

Now let's get to Bruce Springsteen. The amazing thing is that both of your husbands -- not only did you have the heroism in common, but both of your husbands were huge Bruce Springsteen fans, right?

FARRELLY: Right.

CHUNG: And who calls you after 9/11, but -- Stacey?

FARRELLY: Bruce. He doesn't need a last name. CHUNG: Yes. And what did he say to you, and what did it do for you?

FARRELLY: It lifted my spirits enough to get me through the memorial and through Thanksgiving and through the holidays. It was wonderful.

CHUNG: And Suzanne, what did The Boss' phone call mean to you?

BERGER: I can't even describe how much I felt it, Bruce coming down from this celebrity position to come down into a human level and say hi, you know, I'm a father, I'm a husband, and I just want you to know how much I care about you.

CHUNG: And then he made a home video...

BERGER: Right.

CHUNG: ... of "Thunder Road" and it was dedicated...

BERGER: Right to Jim, to myself and my three boys. And we played it at Jim's memorial service.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh. It must have just brought the house down in tears.

BERGER: Yes. I think people realize that, you know, it wasn't about Bruce trying to say, let's sell this, let's do that. It was just saying, hey boys, this is for you. And at the end he said, hey Jim, this is for you.

It was incredible. It really was.

CHUNG: Well, you know, the commercialism of this new album. This album, of course, is called "The Rising," and the songs are really dedicated to, and arise out of your stories and out of all the 9/11 stories.

Now some people say that he commercialized on 9/11.

What do you think, Stacey?

FARRELLY: Absolutely not. He's a sincere guy.

I mean, he's wrote about different wars at different times. I mean, it was not commercialized. When I spoke with him, we spoke about our children, how we feel about things. It wasn't music, it wasn't -- there was -- it was nothing like that.

I mean, I've been a fan for so many years and, I mean, hanging out at the Stone Pony and -- no, absolutely not.

CHUNG: Suzanne, you know, it's so horrible that there are detractors out there when someone is trying to do good.

BERGER: Right. CHUNG: Quickly, what do you think?

BERGER: I think what he did for my boys, in particular, was such an invaluable gift to them. He brought them backstage, they got the opportunity to meet him, to hug him, to give a picture of themselves to him. And he brought them on stage with him. That was something that they'll never, ever forget.

CHUNG: Right. That's great.

You know what? We're going to play just a quick clip of the new album, "The Rising," and then I'll come back for one last question.

(MUSIC)

CHUNG: Tell me how your kids are, Suzanne, your boys? I love your boys.

BERGER: I think they're doing the best they can. And I think when they wake up every morning and they smile and they tackle another day, I just cross another day off and say, wow, we made it through. And I think they're doing OK.

CHUNG: And Stacey, I know you and your husband took care of -- you were foster parents for crack-addicted kids?

FARRELLY: Yes.

CHUNG: And you also have your own three children.

How are your children?

FARRELLY: The boys got through a year of college. Not terrific, but they both did well. And my daughter did really good. And I think we're doing the best we can, I mean, under the circumstances.

CHUNG: Right. Sure.

You are strong, strong women. I admire you both and I wish you well, and give hugs and kisses to your kids for me.

BERGER: Thank you very much.

FARRELLY: Thank you.

CHUNG: OK, Stacey Farrelly, Suzanne Berger, thank you so much for coming in.

BERGER: Thank you.

FARRELLY: Thank you.

CHUNG: A quick final thought when we return, but first, tonight's "Off the Radar" looks at another woman who salvaged inspiration from the loss of a loved one. ANNOUNCER: Carolyn McCarthy is perhaps the epitome of a woman who turned personal loss into a powerful crusade. In 1993, a deranged gunman, Colin Ferguson, stepped onto the Long Island-New York commuter train carrying her husband and their only son. Ferguson killed six people, including Carolyn's husband Dennis. Her son Kevin was severely injured.

She threw herself into his rehabilitation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAROLYN MCCARTHY: I already knew I lost my husband. When I thought I might lose Kevin, that's when I had to put Dennis -- and Dennis would understand that I have put him on the back burner for a little while. So all my strength comes from Kevin because that's the only thing right now that I've got going for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Three years later, after her Congressman voted against a ban on assault weapons, McCarthy decided to run for office.

She won. But her critics and political rivals predicted the former housewife would never survive a world of cutthroat politics and complex legislation.

How did she do? The answer when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: What happened to Long Island railroad massacre widow Carolyn McCarthy, who surprised the pundits by winning office on one issue, gun control?

She's now in her third term. Last week the House Judiciary Committee approved her latest bill aimed at cracking down on illegal guns, a bill with allies, including the National Rifle Association.

She has said she'll leave office when guns are no longer a problem.

She's running again this fall.

CHUNG: Tomorrow: He lost his wife and daughter to a teenager who was drag racing. Three years later, what could possibly bring these two men together? You have to see this story and the interviews.

To get a preview of our program every day, sign up for our daily e-mail by logging on to cnn.com/connie.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Barbara Eden tells the painful story about the death of her son.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com