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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Swim Club Accused of Racism; Rumors of Clinton Talk Show Persist; Professor with Alleged Terrorist Ties Under Fire

Aired August 22, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: They say they weren't allowed in to swim because of their race; the accusations that have made a big splash.

ANNOUNCER: Were they kicked out of the pool because of the color of their skin?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I explained to them that we could go back, but then Marci could never go back with us because of the color of her skin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Now a civil rights lawsuit makes waves at this New Jersey swim club.

The university wants him off campus and the community wants him deported.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe Dr. Al-Arian has abused his position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is this Florida professor linked to a terrorist organization that killed an American?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMI AL-ARIAN, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH FLORIDA: I don't support suicide bombings. I don't support the targeting of any civilian of any nationality, background or religion. I'm deeply against it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A fun-filled family outing at the state fair nearly turns tragic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I was just screaming. And the people that were supposed to be monitoring the rides, they were talking amongst each other, weren't even focusing on my son.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Who's to blame when an amusement ride turns into a dangerous journey?

Life after the presidency: Bill Clinton, talk show host? We'll hear from one man who might be his competition, Maury Povich.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT.

Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight, it's the kind of story we hoped, even assumed, had been left behind a long time ago. It's a story of accusations that a private club refused to admit minorities; not in the Jim Crow South of the 1950s, but in Nutley, New Jersey this summer. The story involves the Le Terrace Swim Club and people who say they were denied admittance based on the color of their skin.

We've invited several of those charging the club with discrimination to share their stories with us tonight.

We also attempted to invite the owner of Le Terrace Swim Club, Patrick Nardone, to join us to address these charges. We were unable to reach him directly, but through his attorney he issued a statement denying his club had engaged in an illegal pattern or practice of discrimination.

We'll have more on that in just a few moments.

But joining us now, Marci Shepherd, Mike Russo -- in whose home Marci lives -- Phillip Giordano, a former Le Terrace member, and Ed Barocas, a lawyer with the ACLU, which is bringing a bias lawsuit on behalf of several plaintiffs.

Thank you all for joining us.

All right, Mr. Giordano, let's start with you.

PHILLIP GIORDANO, SAYS GUESTS WERE TURNED AWAY FROM CLUB: Sure.

CHUNG: You were planning a birthday party for your daughter. You wanted to have it at the club, and you were a member there. You were asked to submit a guest list -- nothing wrong with that, right?

GIORDANO: That's true.

CHUNG: So you did that, and what happened?

GIORDANO: Well, actually my wife was the one who was asked to present the guest list. She brought it to them on the date prior to -- two days prior to the actual date of the party, presented him the list and he systematically went through each and every name of the list and put his hand on his head and said, we have a major problem here.

And my wife then proceeded to say, what's the problem? He says...

CHUNG: This the owner...

GIORDANO: The owner, Pat Nardone -- I'm sorry.

And he said, I thought you understood what our policy was. Didn't we discuss this before you joined?

And my wife said no, what do you mean?

He says, well, I thought we were clear we are a European-based club. Do you understand what that means?

And my wife says, this the United States of America, I'm an American, what does that mean?

He then started to go through the names of the children and he started rattling off children's names. And he said, what kind of names are these?

And as he went through them, my wife says, what do you mean, what kinds of names are these?

And he says, well, do any of these children have brown skin?

CHUNG: He actually said that?

GIORDANO: He actually said that to my wife.

And my wife then said, they are -- several of them were of Filipino descent. And he said, well, how brown-skinned or how dark- skinned are the Filipinos?

And my wife says, well, I have olive complexion, they're no darker and no lighter than I am.

He then proceeded to say, well, do you have any black families or any black children on this list?

And my wife says, yes we do.

And he says, well, we have a big problem here.

CHUNG: And that was it.

You did you go back after a few days, and decided to cancel the party. And when you did, what happened?

GIORDANO: Well, actually, we didn't go back. We decided that -- my wife and I really struggled. We were very distraught that evening...

CHUNG: Right, right.

GIORDANO: ... going through this whole thing knowing that there was going to be some problems.

The next morning -- the day of my daughter's birthday on June 7 I decided, I knew they're not welcomed here, let's find another venue. We booked another party.

I called Nardone, didn't get him live. I spoke to his wife. I, talking just like I am now -- wasn't upset, wasn't using any kind of obscenities -- I just said, I think I need to speak with him.

His wife says, he can't come to the phone right now, you can talk to me.

And I proceeded to say, well, I understand -- first off, I identified who I am, Phillip Giordano, we have a party booked there tomorrow. The first thing I want to let you know is we want to cancel the party.

CHUNG: Right.

GIORDANO: No, oh, you're kidding? Why would you want -- it was very matter-of-fact like, OK, fine. So I think she was kind of relieved that we weren't going to have the party there.

And I said, the reason why I want to speak to your husband, and I think it should be just him and I, we were very distraught last evening. I understand that he and my wife had a discussion yesterday questioning children's ethnicity.

CHUNG: Right.

GIORDANO: She says, you're right, you need to talk with him. She put me on hold.

The intention was that I was going to resign the membership and ask for my refund...

CHUNG: Yes.

GIORDANO: ... but I didn't have that opportunity.

CHUNG: What happened?

GIORDANO: She came back on the phone and said, he said you can pick up your full refund at the front desk anytime today.

CHUNG: Basically, you're out of here.

GIORDANO: She threw me out.

CHUNG: OK. The Nardone family would not comment directly to us, but the owners of the club -- the Nardone family -- has released the following statement through the lawyer that is representing them: "They categorically deny that they've been engaged in an illegal pattern or practice of discriminatory behavior. The evidence will show that a reasonable and sensible club atmosphere has been enjoyed by a diverse group of persons. No illegal effort has ever been made to purposely exclude on ethnic group from membership. Ethnic minorities have, in fact, enjoyed the family-oriented environment of the club."

And I know you all have a lot to stay about that. But let's go on to Marci's story for a minute.

Marci, we'll just quickly tell them the connection with the Russo family. You were hired as a baby sitter and mother's helper, right?

MARCI SHEPHERD, SAYS SHE WAS TURNED AWAY BY CLUB: Yes.

CHUNG: For the four Russo family children, and Mike Russ is the father in that family.

And then after your father died, is that right, they were so wonderful to bring you into the family, and said you can live in our spare bedroom and then you can continue going to the same school that you were going to, and you became part of the family.

SHEPHERD: Exactly.

CHUNG: So you go to the club with Mike Russo's wife, right, and the four kids.

SHEPHERD: Yes.

CHUNG: You're going to go swimming. And what happened?

SHEPHERD: Well, it was Katie (ph), myself and my best friend Stacy (ph) and...

CHUNG: Who, we should say, happens to be white.

SHEPHERD: Yes, she's very white with red hair.

And so we followed Katie down here. I'm helping her unload the van with the wagon and the children, and we go up to, like, the front -- it's a front desk. It's like a little opening. So, you know, you go up to the front desk to sign in, even if you don't have guests.

So Katie tells the guy behind the desk, I have a guest today; I have two. The guy looks up, he looks at me. My friend Stacy went back to the car to get her wallet.

And he goes, hold on a second right here, I have to check if there's guests today. So he leaves the front desk and he goes down to talk to Mr. Nardone.

CHUNG: That's the owner.

SHEPHERD: Yes. Comes back about two minutes later and says, there's no guests today.

And Katie goes, excuse me?

And he goes, there's no guests today.

And she said, can I talk to Mr. Nardone?

And he says, he's down by the front end of the pool.

CHUNG: What reason did he give you for having no guests today?

SHEPHERD: He didn't give any reason at all. He just said there are no guests today.

CHUNG: OK.

SHEPHERD: So Katie leaves and my friend Stacy comes back, and she's next to me. And as Katie's leaving I'm standing there, and right behind me a lady walks up and she says, I have a guest today.

He says sure, sign right on in.

The guest was a lady -- right behind me. It was a white lady and a small little white boy.

And I go, I thought there was no guests today? And Stacy goes, yes, there's no guests today, right?

And he said, you hold on a second.

So she signs in. She goes, more people come in with guests. And I'm standing there, and I'm like, this ridiculous. And I knew from that point that it was because I was black, that's why.

CHUNG: There you go.

So Mike Russo you, of course, are Katie's husband, the mom in this family. And she was completely shocked, wasn't she?

MIKE RUSSO, MARCI'S ADOPTIVE FATHER: She couldn't believe it. She couldn't believe it.

She went down to confront Mr. Nardone and just asked him why? Why wouldn't you let her in? And he kept on saying, this my club, I can let in whoever and whomever I like for whatever reason whatsoever.

He then kicked us out of the pool club. I mean, it took a few minutes later. My wife went back over to the pool, went back over to Marci and said, Marci, go call Mike. She started getting the kids ready for the pool, putting sunscreen on, et cetera, et cetera.

CHUNG: The owner literally wanted you out of there as well? I mean, the family? RUSSO: At that point he came right up to my wife's face and said, Mrs. Russo, you have to leave. You are no longer a member of this pool club. You are no longer welcome. We will send you your money back. You will get a full refund for the entire amount.

CHUNG: And what reason did he give?

RUSSO: This is my club, I can do whatever I like.

CHUNG: Well, let's take a look at this sheet. You all were all given general information, is that right? Did you have to sign this?

RUSSO: No.

CHUNG: No, OK. But there -- you know the key sentence: "Management reserves the right to admit and discharge any persons it deems inappropriate to the safety and continuity of the club."

What did you think that meant?

RUSSO: I didn't -- I went and spoke to him the next day. And I said, what does that mean? What -- I'm reading what you have in front of me, what does "continuity" mean? I'm a pretty smart guy, I don't understand what that means.

He kept on doing this: continuity. And he kept on saying, you know what it means. I think you understand me. His exact words were, Mr. Russo, it's very simple, and I think you do understand. If they don't look right to me, I don't take.

CHUNG: Marcie, has this ever happened to you before?

SHEPHERD: Never.

CHUNG: Seriously?

SHEPHERD: It never has happened to me. I lived in Nutley for 18 years and I have never in my life been treated this way.

CHUNG: How did it make you feel?

SHEPHERD: I was very embarrassed, very embarrassed. I was embarrassed for myself, for Katie (ph) and the children, especially, and...

CHUNG: The children were crying, weren't they?

SHEPHERD: They were screaming crying, the three little girls and Matt (ph), he just looked so shocked, and it was -- my heart -- it just broke my heart, because they just looked so upset and they had not a clue, and I knew why the whole time. So did Katie (ph) and Stacy (ph), but they had no idea what was going on.

CHUNG: Ed, you are leading a lawsuit now on behalf of the clients, several clients, several plaintiffs and the ACLU. What do you hope to accomplish? ED BAROCAS, ACLU: What we hope is to end this type of discrimination. It's rather sad that the type of discrimination that we -- that was fought so long and hard against in the 1960s has reared its head right in Nutley, New Jersey. Right in our own backyard.

CHUNG: You know, but this is a private club, private owner. Doesn't he have the right to say who can belong and who can't?

BAROCAS: The New Jersey Supreme Court has made very clear that a business can't simply skirt the discrimination laws by hiding behind a self-proclaimed label as private. This is markedly different from actual distinctly private clubs where the membership decide to have an association with one another, whether it's an Irish American club, Italian American club.

Even the KKK is permissible if you're telling the members and the members are deciding that they want to be part of this club. What happened here was, unbeknownst to the members, they were paying to money to a business owner to join a pool and to swim in that pool, and unbeknownst to them, this owner was engaging in discrimination.

CHUNG: Bottom line, would you like to see this man just out of business, as far as you're concerned?

RUSSO: I'd like to have somebody else own the pool club.

GIORDANO: I would love that.

CHUNG: That would be the ideal?

GIORDANO: The reason we first came forward to the whole thing was to let people know, like Ed just mentioned here, we did know the policy and we had joined. Had somebody come forward and made this public knowledge, we would have not have joined. So yes, we love for him to lose the pool, let it go to the -- back to the town, and let it go to the people who want to use it.

CHUNG: There you go.

GIORDANO: Absolutely.

CHUNG: Thank you so much. Marcie, thank you, Mike, Ed and Philip. Appreciate your being with us. Thank you all.

CHUNG: Listen to this, that I'm going to tell you. I don't know if you know this. This is just a final note. The New Jersey attorney general has filed a complaint against La Terrace Swim Club and the owner Patrick Nardone, alleging they engaged in, quote, "a pattern and practice of unlawful discrimination."

Frank Vespa Palpaleo (ph), director of civil rights for the state attorney general's office, told us that the first person who attempted to serve the complaint was an African American man. According to Vespa Palpaleo, this man was not permitted to enter the club. No reason was given. The next attempt at serving the papers was made by a different investigator, a Caucasian man, and he was permitted in. So as we've noted, Mr. Nardone categorically denies the allegation of discrimination. Isn't that incredible?

SHEPHERD: Yes.

CHUNG: Coming up, the furor over what a Florida professor said outside the classroom. We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Still head, a 2-year-old's wild ride. Caught on tape. A close call prompts a safety investigation. Could it happen to your kids? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Now the story of a college professor who went on the offensive today against the university that wants to fire him. At issue, freedom of speech and accusations that he is supporting terrorism. CNN's Mark Potter puts into focus this classroom controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sami Al-Arian says the university's efforts to fire him violate his free speech rights and the spirit of academic freedom. He blames what he calls hysteria following September 11.

AL-ARIAN: I'm a minority, I'm an Arab, I'm Palestinian, I'm a Muslim. That's not a popular thing to be these days. Do I have rights or don't I have rights?

POTTER: Al-Arian came to the United States in 1975 and taught computer engineering at the University of South Florida near Tampa.

He also ran an Islamic charity and a think tank knows as Wise. He espoused passionate views on the Israeli occupation.

AL-ARIAN: I've explained this over and over again. I am a pro- Palestinian person. I don't wish death to any people.

POTTER: But for years the U.S. government has investigated Al- Arian for possible terrorist ties. In 1995, agents raided Wise, the think tank, after one of its members, Ramadan Shallah (ph), returned to the Middle East and assumed leadership of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a U.S.-designated terrorist group.

AL-ARIAN: Six months after he left he became part of that group, and we regret that, we regret he was part of Wise. We cannot reverse history. But guilt by association is unacceptable standard in this country.

POTTER: Federal law enforcement officials say they are still investigating whether Al-Arian knowingly used his charity to transfer money that may have funded a 1995 suicide bombing in Gaza which killed a U.S. student, Alisa Flatow. No charges, however, have ever been filed.

(on camera): Did you have anything to do with this?

AL-ARIAN: Absolutely not. And I have absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. How would I? I mean, come on.

I mean, this is ridiculous, this is absolutely ridiculous for people even to insinuate that.

POTTER (voice-over): After September 11, the university placed Al-Arian on paid academic leave when his appearance on a television talk show led to death and bomb threats against him and the school.

The university is now asking a court to rule on whether it can legally fire him.

MARY BURGAN, AMERICAN ASSOC. OF UNIV. PROFESSORS: I believe that Dr. Al-Arian has abused his position at the university and is using academic freedom as a shield to cover improper activities.

POTTER: Al-Arian says he will fight the university's efforts, noting two years ago a U.S. immigration judge found no links between Al-Arian, his political groups, and terrorism. But today his brother- in-law, Masn Al-Najr (ph), who also worked in the Islamic charity and think tank, was deported to the Middle East by U.S. authorities. He, too, denied government allegations he was a terrorist supporter and national security threat.

But he was held in jail for more than four years. The U.S. filed no terrorism-related charges, but said it had evidence it needed to keep secret to protect intelligence gathering. His sister, who is Sami Al-Arian's wife, says she hopes the United States will return to it is principles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But because of the support I find from my fellow citizens, I feel still, America -- we can bring it back to what it was or used to be, the land of freedom and human rights. We have to do that.

POTTER (on camera): As the conflict heads to court, Al-Arian claims he would never consider resigning from the university, arguing his case and the issue of academic freedom are much bigger than him now.

Mark Potter, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: We're joined by CNN's legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Martin Snyder, associate general secretary of the Association of University Professors. Thank you both for being with us.

Mr. Snyder, if indeed the university was being put in jeopardy after this man appeared on a talk show and there were bomb threats and death threats against not only him but the university, isn't the university justified in wanting to get rid of him? MARTIN SNYDER, ASSOCIATION OF UNIVERSITY PROFESSORS: No, it doesn't seem to me it is. In fact, if you argue that position, it seems to me you're saying that he needs to be punished for the abberant (ph) behavior of other people. Other people have made the threats.

CHUNG: No, but isn't his existence putting students in danger?

SNYDER: Well, the university has a responsibility to protect the students and the faculty and the administration members, certainly. But you don't protect them by violating the rights of Professor al- Arian.

CHUNG: Did it surprise you that the university went to a judge and asked for help? I mean, isn't there a normal procedure that they should go through?

SNYDER: Yes. I think that was quite surprising. Typically, in situations like this, and perhaps situations not as inflamed as this one, the normal procedure is that there would be a hearing, in this case, a grievance hearing, and there would be a recommendation or a binding arbitration depending on exactly how the contract was written that would determine the fate of the professor.

But the AAUP, the American Association of University Professors, typically strongly urges that faculty be involved in that sort of a hearing so that they can lend their expertise and their sense of what is appropriate academic behavior and what violates or crosses the line of academic propriety. And they can perhaps deal with some of these very subtle nuance situations.

CHUNG: All right. Jeffrey Toobin, even though no charges have been filed against him, he's not been found to have engaged in any criminal activity, the United States government hasn't been so good at pinpointing and finding people who have some connection to terrorist activities. So, why not for the safety of it all, not have this man out there and involved in whatever he's doing at the university, I mean, as a tenured professor?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The -- just because you haven't committed a crime doesn't mean you get to keep your job. I mean, there are ways you can get yourself fired without committing a crime. But the difference here, the struggle here, is between protecting speech and prohibiting conduct, what's speech and what's conduct.

And the hard question here is, and what got him into so much trouble when he appeared on "The O'Reilly Factor" was what about if you fundraise for a terrorist organization? That's what he more or less has admitted doing in a private letter, fundraising for Islamic Jihad. That's sort of speech, but it's sort of conduct. And I think that's where the university is on its strongest grounds in trying to get rid of him, saying, look, you just simply can't fundraise for a terrorist organization and be a professor here.

CHUNG: But he claims nothing that he did in terms of financing contributed to a terrorist act.

TOOBIN: That's -- he's entitled to his opinion about that, but the government is also and the university is entitled to say, you know, we don't buy that, we think Islamic Jihad is a terrorist organization, and if you in fact did this, you have to leave.

CHUNG: Well, there you go. So, it's not a question of academic freedom or anything like that. It's indeed that the university needs to get rid of him because of his political involvement and -- I mean, do they think...

TOOBIN: That's certainly their argument. I think it's a tough call. I mean, I think there is certainly an element of this guy being penalized for his speech. Remember, all of these activities are several years ago. This only came to a head because he went on "The O'Reilly Factor" and had this -- and then all the tumult started. So, it's clearly -- the problem is -- you know, came to a head after September 11. But, by the same token, I mean, the university may have a point that conduct, that kind of conduct, simply can't be tolerated.

CHUNG: Mr. Snyder, does your group support him 100 percent regardless of what kind of investigation may emerge down the line?

SNYDER: What we support is his right to free speech. We may not agree with what he says. I think many of us would violently disagree with him, strenuously disagree with him. But we would certainly respect his right to say that and we're very concerned that he would be penalized, that his academic position would be forfeited because of his expression of ideas that are clearly unpopular. And that's...

CHUNG: Yes, but what happens -- Mr. Snyder, what happens if his think tank is not on the up and up?

SNYDER: Well, then I think the investigation needs to prove that, that evidence needs to be brought forward, that needs to go to a hearing and a group of peers need to examine that and make a recommendation to the university which says, yes, we agree that there are serious violations here of professional standards and he ought not to be in the classroom.

TOOBIN: But, Mr. Snyder, aren't there also some limits to free speech, even for professors? I mean, if you teach modern European history and you tell your students, you know, the Holocaust just never happened, is that a -- couldn't someone be fired for saying that?

SNYDER: No. I think that is exactly where you want peers involved, because there you have a question of professional competence. And I think it is possible, it is desirable to have a group of peers examine that kind of statement and make a decision about whether this person really has professional competence. The professional competence of Professor al-Arian is not in question here. He apparently is quite a good computer science engineer.

CHUNG: Good point. Thank you so much, Mr. Snyder. Thank you, Jeffrey Toobin, for being with us.

When we come back, the leap of faith when you trust a carnival ride. Keep it right here.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, move over Oprah. You may have some stiff competition in daytime TV. CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: A correction tonight on a story we began with about a swim club accused of barring minorities. We showed individual of a man incorrectly identified as Patrick Nardone, owner of the La Terrace club. The man in the video was not Mr. Nardone. We profusely apologize for the confusion. We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up, a day at the fair. The mother of this toddler never dreamed her son would literally get the ride of his life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I made sure he measured up correctly to that, or I would never put my son in a situation that would harm him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Are you at risk when you take a ride at the carnival? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Picture this. You take your child to the carnival rides at the state fair. It's one of those spinning, whirling, tilting rides. Your child is small, but the height indicator tells you that he's tall enough for the ride. But is he? Look at what happened to one family on the kite flyer ride at the California State Fair.

Now, watch what happens as 2-year-old Demaury Young (ph) slips out of his seat and falls to the ground, all this caught on home video. State fair officials declined our invitation to be interviewed and said a full investigation is underway.

Now to tell us about the experience, we're joined from Sacramento by Demaury, who thankfully wasn't serious hurt, and his mother, Jennifer Jones, and with them is their attorney, Harlan Antler (ph). Thank you so much for being with us. Jennifer, tell us, that video is just so dramatic, you must have been terrified. What happened?

JENNIFER JONES, SON FELL OFF RIDE AT STATE FAIR: I was. I was extremely terrified. You know, as the ride was going around, Demarjus began to slip -- I noticed him slipping out after it spun around a few times. It was the most -- I felt so helpless -- it was the most scariest experience of my life. We were screaming for help to the operators. They paid us no mind. I screamed numerous, numerous times them, asking them to stop, he's slipping, please stop, and I finally, I get through the gate and the man sees me coming and looks up sees Demaury, and at that time I don't know if he helped or hurt by grabbing his leg, you know, and then he fell right out. CHUNG: Tell us how he is now. Is he all right now?

JONES: Well, we're not sure yet. We're still getting referrals to get take him to traumatic brain injury clinics, and they still want to do more X-rays and things of that sort.

CHUNG: When you went to that ride, did he have any hesitancy about taking that ride, and were you concerned about his safety at all?

JONES: No. Because before I even put him on the ride, we stood there for a minute to check it out, to see how it worked, and then we watched the other kids get off, and there was children smaller than him coming off the ride, so I took him out of the stroller, we went around the side and measured him, you know, to make sure he was up to the height requirement.

CHUNG: And what was the height requirement?

JONES: It was 36 inches.

CHUNG: And how tall is your son?

JONES: Demaury is 39 inches.

CHUNG: All right. So you thought everything was fine?

JONES: Right. I thought he would perfectly safe. He would be monitored by the operators as well as myself. I thought he would be OK.

CHUNG: Now what do you think happened?

JONES: The height issue was one of the things. He wasn't -- I got a phone call stating that he needed to be 42 inches to actually ride the Kite Flyer.

CHUNG: So the sign was wrong?

JONES: Right. They had an inaccurate sign put up, the wrong sign.

CHUNG: Was he not wearing some kind of safety belt?

JONES: No, he was -- he was laying down on his stomach and holding on to bars, the bars are in front of him, like you're flying. You put your arms out in front of you. And then there's a plastic piece that goes between your legs that protects you from going backwards and a piece that comes down over your back, over the backside of your body to keep you from going out.

CHUNG: So was he holding on tightly and was he secure in your mind?

JONES: Yes. Yes. I thought he would be perfectly fine. I mean -- any mother in their right mind wouldn't put their child in danger if they thought they would be hurt. You know, I thought he would be just fine.

CHUNG: Jennifer, I'm surprised there wasn't some sort of harness attached to that ride.

JONES: Yes, well the piece that's between your legs is supposed to keep you from going anywhere, that's supposed to keep you secure, and you're holding on to the bars, so, you know, you're supposed -- I mean, I'm sure -- if he met the height requirements he wouldn't have fallen off.

CHUNG: To address some of the concerns about amusement park safety, we bring in William Avery, a safety consultant for the amusement park industry, and he comes to us from Orlando, Florida. Sir, what do you think happened, based on what you saw?

WILLIAM AVERY, SAFETY EXPERT: Well, it's really hard to tell because that was a very fast clip, but it looks like he slid backwards outside the compartment configuration of the kite or -- assuming that's what they refer to it as, and went through it.

One of the things you need to understand, a child shouldn't be held accountable to hold on for their own personal safety in a situation such as this. There should have been a positive restraint mechanism where this kind of failure could not occur.

CHUNG: So who would be responsible?

AVERY: As far as the height requirement goes, that recommendation should come from the manufacturer to the end user or the owner/operator. There again, if it requires the use of a safety harness or a positive restraining mechanism, yes, that should have been part of the design feature that was built into the ride.

CHUNG: I am always so worried about these sort of traveling fairs, the traveling amusement parks, more so than the ones that are already established and there. Should I be? Because as I understand it, there are about -- something like 10,000 of these kinds of accidents, and there were in the year 2000. That sounds like a lot to me.

AVERY: I've heard that case argued for all 26 years that I have been in this industry. There is no validity of anything to validate or support on either side of that particular issue that one is safer than the other.

It just simply isn't there. What you'll find is that the amusement park industry will argue that our rides are fixed, they're always in the same place, therefore they're not being moved. What you will find in the carnival industry is because we have to move them and tear them down and re-erect them at every site, we have a chance to look at them completely, so that's almost at this point an unwinnable argument.

CHUNG: Jennifer, how has this affected your son? Is he more fearful of ever going to an amusement park?

JONES: Yes, I believe so. I mean, it's scary. Any time he even hears it on the television, he begins to cry. I cry. It's scary.

CHUNG: Are you ever going to go back to an amusement park again?

JONES: That's hard to say. I have no intentions on doing that any time soon.

CHUNG: Thank you so much, Jennifer Jones. Thank you, Mr. Antler, and thank you, William Avery. Appreciate your being with us.

And once again, state fair officials declined our invitation to be interviewed and said a full investigation is underway.

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Next -- the perfect post-presidential program?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it boxers or briefs?

WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Usually briefs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Would you tune in to Bill TV? CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, COMEDIAN: Bill Clinton is getting his own daily television show right here on CBS. That's right. And it's going to be a public affairs show, and I think...

(LAUGHTER)

...that makes perfect sense.

We're all getting ready today, the pages, the CBS pages were issued pepper spray, so we're ready to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Bada-bing. That's right. One of the world's great talkers may have found his true calling. The big buzz is that some of former President Clinton's associates are negotiating with CBS to have Mr. Clinton host a syndicated talk show.

The former commander-in-chief first showed his flair as a commander of chat when he used the town hall format during the '92 campaign. But is daytime television really the appropriate forum for an ex-president to earn a living?

To discuss that, we've invited one of the president's potential competitors, Maury Povich, a veteran of daytime talk...

MAURY POVICH, TALK SHOW HOST: Competitor?

CHUNG: Oh, yes. And my husband.

POVICH: Yes.

CHUNG: Thank you for coming, Maury.

POVICH: It's a pleasure to be here, Con.

CHUNG: Well, I just have one rule for you, all right? Don't hog my air time, all right?

POVICH: It's your show. It's the Chungster's show.

CHUNG: There you go.

What do you think of this whole idea? Why would Bill Clinton want to do a daytime talk show and who would want to watch it?

POVICH: Well, the better question is who would want to watch it. It's going to be very interesting. I don't know if the former president knows exactly who watches daytime television...

CHUNG: Yes?

POVICH: But it's not all of those people who he thinks watch, because I mean, what you have out there are people on fixed income, women who are taking care of children, people who are in shift jobs that let's say work in Detroit and Atlanta, which are the two cities in this country who have the highest midnight to 8 a.m. television viewing time, so they have a lot of different shifts.

CHUNG: Right.

POVICH: So he had better find out who is out there -- and kids. And kids. A lot of kids.

CHUNG: OK, so you're saying that all of those people would not be interested in hearing Bill Clinton talk and do interviews and whatever?

POVICH: Do you really think Bill Clinton is going to do paternity tests?

CHUNG: I don't think so. Not the man to do that.

POVICH: No. And so therefore, the most successful television in the daytime are intimate, personal relationship shows. Oprah does it one way, with this self-improvement feelings of hers, and she talks about relationships. I do it another way when we deal with intimate personal issues involving husbands and wives, girlfriends and boyfriend. I don't really want to think that the former president wants to get into that.

CHUNG: Yes, what he wants to do is a public affairs program. I mean when David Letterman, it's true. That's what...

POVICH: What do you mean? A Sunday morning show five days a week?

CHUNG: I don't know, because also there was some talk that there would be a band.

POVICH: And a curtain? A curtain and a band?

CHUNG: Here's Johnny.

POVICH: And the former president?

CHUNG: I don't know. That's what has been said.

POVICH: Here is William Jefferson Clinton?

CHUNG: There you go. Could he get up there and do...

POVICH: First of all, he would have to change an entire character trait he has. He has to show up on time. You have a whole studio audience -- they're not going to take waiting for hours for a former president to show up, because he demonstrated over eight years he couldn't show up for his appointments on time, so he has to worry about that. And secondly, I just don't know whether it will fly.

I just don't -- I mean, he's got to know what's out there in daytime. I mean, it is a grind out there. I mean, you got to work hard. You got to really...

CHUNG: Yes, but you still have time to play golf.

POVICH: Yes, but I work hard those other days.

CHUNG: OK.

POVICH: What are you trying to tell -- why are you dumping on you?

CHUNG: No, I'm not dumping on you. It's true.

POVICH: You like the fact that I play golf.

CHUNG: Yes, because you're happier when do you.

POVICH: Yes.

CHUNG: What do you think is next in daytime talk?

POVICH: Well, I mean the way it's going, I mean the next thing I think, I mean Ozzy Osbourne and a look in his family is going to have a live studio audience right there looking at the same time and asking questions of Ozzy and Sharon and all those kids. That's what I would think.

CHUNG: All right. So could Clinton do that? POVICH: No. You think he and Hillary are going to open up their house? Are you kidding me? The senator and the president opening their house up there in Chappaqua or wherever they live?

CHUNG: You got a point there. Ain't going to happen.

POVICH: Now that's something we would watch, wouldn't it? Eh?

CHUNG: It would be. What would it take for Clinton to put together a successful talk show?

POVICH: Well, this would be my suggestion. First of all, that he do it once a week. Secondly, that he start out doing some serious subjects, and I don't know whether it's politics or world affairs or whatever, but some kind of Sunday morning format, and that would be fine, and he started sprinkles in a celebrity interview or two, and if that goes well, then you can expand.

CHUNG: But you know, a lot of people think that he has charisma.

POVICH: He does?

CHUNG: That he was a great communicator?

POVICH: Oh, I think he's a real good communicator. I don't think he can communicate in daytime talk. I mean, that is -- if he -- getting elected as a successful talk show host makes a presidential election look like a city council race. I mean...

CHUNG: You don't mean that -- you don't mean getting elected...

POVICH: Well, getting elected! That's what you are. As a successful host, you are -- this is an election. This is just like an election.

CHUNG: And the viewers are the voters.

POVICH: And the viewers vote. So if you are going to be successful, that's a harder campaign than any presidential election. I mean, I know. I can tell you that in the last 15 years, there have been 75 attempts at daytime talk shows. There have been four successes.

CHUNG: Is that right?

POVICH: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

Why are you laughing?

CHUNG: No. I'm laughing because...

POVICH: Newfound respect for your husband?

CHUNG: Yes, you got it. Thank you, Maury Povich. POVICH: Good to see you.

CHUNG: Yes, nice to see you. I'll see you later.

POVICH: Can I go home now?

CHUNG: Yes you can.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Bill Clinton wouldn't be the first person to try to translate his celebrity into a talk show. One of the most renowned attempts to break into the talk show circuit was basketball legend Magic Johnson. His "Magic Hour" debuted late night on Fox in June 1998.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAGIC JOHNSON, FORMER NBA PLAYER: Basketball brought you a fan base, OK, and has -- will help you deal with the pressure, and so it made a probably easier transition for me, and it's a challenge, and I needed a challenge in my life right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Critics blasted it as lacking energy and humor, and viewers never warmed to his style. The network pulled plug after less than two months. Johnson himself later admitted that he never felt comfortable in the role. So what is Magic Johnson been up to since the demise of the talk show? The answer when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: So what has Magic Johnson been up to since his late night talk show was canceled? His failure on late night television hasn't held back his success as a businessman. He has opened shopping centers and movie theaters across the country. He also has a stake in a number of restaurants and Starbucks coffee shops. He also owns a 5 percent stake in the business that launched him, the L.A. Lakers.

CHUNG: And maybe Magic Johnson will run for mayor of Los Angeles. Go, Magic. Now before we go, remember Mitchell Crooks. He shot the video of the violent arrest of a black teenager in Inglewood, California last month. Well, two officers, Jeremy Morse and Bijan Darvish (ph) now face trial in connection with the videotaped beating on 16-year-old Donovan Jackson, taped by Crooks, an amateur cameraman, and Crooks believes the videotape also led to his arrest a few days later.

We last saw Crooks screaming as he was picked up by plain clothes officers for alleged parole violations in a neighboring county where he had been convicted in a 1999 misdemeanor case. Well, Crooks and his attorneys argue that he's being punished for coming forward with his videotape, but the judge apparently thought otherwise. Mitch crooks was found guilty of violating his probation. His sentence, 204 days in jail.

Tomorrow, did the girlfriend you married turn into your mother? You'll meet two guys who know this syndrome. Believe me, you have to see this. Coming up next on LARRY KING LIVE, actor Matthew Perry talks about overcoming addiction and his upcoming final season on "Friends." Good night.

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