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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Parents Charged Whit Death of Daughter By Overdose of Water; Washington Filled With Debate Over Iraq
Aired September 19, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Anderson Cooper.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Lin.
Tonight, the unthinkable: what a mother did to her own daughter on tape.
ANNOUNCER: Caught on tape: A mother attacks her own child. Now she is the target of a manhunt. The question: Why did she do it?
Plus: a tragic story involving another 4-year-old.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
RICHARD KILLPACK, FATHER OF CASSANDRA: We can't keep her eyes open. We can't keep her head up.
OPERATOR: What is your...
(CROSSTALK)
R. KILLPACK: I don't know what is wrong. It looks like a seizure, but it's not.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Her parents charged with homicide for forcing the child to overdose on water.
Showdown: Iraq -- from the White House...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are no negotiations to be held with Iraq. They have nothing to negotiate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... to the halls of Congress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The goal isn't inspections. The goal is disarmament. That is what was agreed to by Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: one U.S. lawmaker who has been on the streets of Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NICK RAHALL (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Here is an opening that we may be able to pursue for a peaceful resolution to this conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Will the threat of war keep the peace?
Scandal in the Kentucky Statehouse: The governor is sued for sexual harassment by one of his own political appointees...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Have you ever had sexual relations with Tina Conner?
GOV. PAUL PATTON (D), KENTUCKY: I have not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... and accused of using his power to ruin her business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TINA CONNER, PATTON ACCUSER: It just wiped us out. It just absolutely desecrated the facility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A high-profile case of he said/she said in the Bluegrass State.
Catfight: a small town divided in a feline feud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON REMLINGER, NEIGHBOR OF CAT OWNER: There's little kids there. There's other pets. This is a health issue.
DIAN FREEMAN, CAT OWNER: A private disagreement has definitely become an issue that the town has taken seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Cat vs. dog, neighbor against neighbor: How far would you go to protect your pets?
Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, for Connie Chung: Anderson Cooper and Carol Lin. COOPER: Good evening, everyone.
Tonight, a police manhunt is under way for a little girl and her mother.
LIN: The reason: a videotape that is almost too painful to watch. We just had a visceral reaction to it when we saw it.
COOPER: Yes, absolutely. In fact, we want to warn you at home, it may not be appropriate for everyone in your family to see tonight.
LIN: That's right.
This tape shows something that goes well beyond a parent disciplining a child. This started outside the Kohl's department store in Mishawaka, Indiana, after a woman identified by police as Madelyne Gorman Toogood was reportedly turned away from the store.
As she put her daughter into the back seat, she struck her and apparently repeated to strike her for no reason. That is immediately apparent from the tape. Now, despite the furious and repeated blows, it is not clear how many were punches and how many were slaps. And we can't easily determine where exactly the blows fell or with what force.
Now, all told, the woman appears to land more than a dozen blows in the space of 25 seconds. Police are very worried that the child needs medical attention now. And that is one of the reasons why they are hunting the woman.
Now, earlier, I spoke with Mishawaka Assistant Police Chief Michael Samp, who joined us from South Bend.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Chief Samp, thanks so much for joining us tonight.
MICHAEL SAMP, MISHAWAKA POLICE DEPARTMENT: My pleasure.
LIN: It sounds like you were able to gather more clue from that videotape that we just saw earlier, that you were able to actually track down the Texas license plate as well as the white SUV itself?
SAMP: That is correct.
LIN: What are you going to do with that information? Have you been able to trace the vehicle?
SAMP: Right.
We actually have impounded the vehicle. The vehicle is currently at our police department being processed for potential evidence that may have occurred during the attack.
LIN: And you were able to trace the woman's family as well, right? SAMP: That is correct.
LIN: So what did they tell you about where she is?
SAMP: Well, right now, initially, they told us that she had left the area shortly thereafter the attack took place. But since that time, we've gotten conflicting reports from other family members and from other witnesses in the area.
LIN: So what do you make of that? Why is it that you're getting conflicting information?
SAMP: Well, we believe that the victim is with the suspect and that the suspect is trying to elude apprehension at this time. So she is being hid out by the family members so that she won't face any kind of criminal problems.
LIN: So she is well aware that you're hunting her down right now.
SAMP: I believe so, yes.
LIN: Are you releasing her name or a description?
SAMP: Yes, we are. Her name is Madelyne. And the last name is Gorman or Toogood. She is a female, white, approximately 25, 26 years of age.
LIN: Does she have a criminal history?
SAMP: We found a minor criminal history. We are still researching that.
LIN: But anything involving child abuse?
SAMP: No, ma'am.
LIN: Is this her only child?
SAMP: No, ma'am, it's not.
LIN: It's not?
Are you going to have a hard time tracking her down, then? It wouldn't seem to me that she would be difficult to find.
SAMP: Well, thanks to the aid of the media and the public at large, we've received many, many tips over this particular situation. And, of course, we are following up every one of those tips. And we're hopeful that the child will be found, because the primary focus in this whole investigation is getting that child into a medical facility and having her looked at.
LIN: It was absolutely horrifying to look at that tape. We couldn't believe what we saw. And this attack went on for some 25 seconds. The injuries are described as head-and-neck injuries, as well as possibly some hemorrhaging. So it sounds like to me the clock is ticking for this child.
SAMP: Well, we can only surmise the extent of the injuries. But we are very concerned. And, like I say, our primary focus right now is getting that child some medical treatment to make sure that she is not -- there has been no permanent damage.
LIN: The diagnoses that you were able to get, though, just by having a doctor take a look at this videotape is blunt-head trauma. So can you at least give our audience an idea of what the symptoms would be? Would this child be bedridden right now, even conscious?
SAMP: The child may be lethargic. I'm not a doctor, but I would think that the child would be having some sort of problems, maybe possibly dizziness, maybe some sort of nausea, something along those lines.
LIN: Don't you think the mother would be well aware that her child may be in jeopardy, that she has got to get her to the hospital right now?
SAMP: Well, I would hope that the mother would sense that the child could have some sort of damage and would take the appropriate steps.
LIN: Well, what did the family members tell you about this woman? Are they able to communicate with her? Can they at least get her that message that she needs to get her daughter to a doctor?
SAMP: Well, at this time we have expressed these concerns. And we're hopeful that the message will get through to the people responsible, her caring guardians and other loved ones, and they will take the necessary steps, not only to turn the suspect in, which is appropriate, but also to make sure that we get the child so that she can seek the proper medical attention.
LIN: So what is likely going to be your biggest break in this case? Where is it going to from: the family or strangers out there who have seen her?
SAMP: Well, unfortunately, my gut feeling, I think it will probably be from strangers that spot her. I think that is where most of our tips have come from so far, suspected sightings of the little girl.
LIN: All right, well, Chief Samp, I never thought that I would see something like this, see a mother treat her child in this manner, and in such a public place. So let's hope you find her real soon.
Thank you very much.
SAMP: Thank you very much.
LIN: Chief Samp. (END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: And joining me now to bring us up to date on the search and the investigation, we have St. Joseph County deputy prosecutor Maggie Jones.
Ms. Jones, thank you very much for joining us.
MAGGIE JONES, ST. JOSEPH COUNTY DEPUTY PROSECUTOR: Thank you.
LIN: Has anything at all developed in the last few hours in this case?
JONES: It's my understanding that the detectives are still following up every lead. And so far, we have not found the child or the suspect.
LIN: Do you believe that she is still in the state?
JONES: Because of the volume of calls that we are getting with possible sightings or just information, we're hopeful that she is still there.
LIN: Do you think the family, her family actually knows where she is right now?
JONES: If they do, they are not telling us.
LIN: What sort of people would allow this child to be in jeopardy like this? This girl needs immediate medical attention.
JONES: That is a question that we continue to ask. And I know that some of the family members have been shown the video. And they still have not been helpful...
LIN: Really?
JONES: ... in locating that child.
LIN: What was their reaction when they saw the tape?
JONES: I was not present for those interviews. It wasn't the reaction I would have, because, like I said, they haven't been forthcoming.
LIN: All right, so what sort of charges does this woman face right now?
JONES: Felony battery.
LIN: Felony battery?
JONES: Right, with a victim under the age of 14.
LIN: And could the family face charges as well for not either delivering information that could be crucial to this investigation or even harboring her?
JONES: It is against the law to assist a criminal. And so they certainly should be considering that at this time.
LIN: All right, Maggie Jones, we wish you luck in the case and the prosecution, if it comes to that.
JONES: Thank you.
LIN: Thank you very much, Maggie Jones.
Well, another case of alleged child abuse led to criminal charges this week. Richard and Jennete Killpack of Springville, Utah, are charged with abusing and killing their adopted 4-year-old daughter by making her drink large amounts of water. Now, the parents claim it was a form of bonding therapy to discipline their troubled child. Well, the next day, 4-year-old Cassandra Killpack died.
Here is the father's 911 call to police.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: Hello?
R. KILLPACK: I need someone out here right now for my little daughter.
OPERATOR: OK. What is going on?
R. KILLPACK: She's had a lot of emotional problems. But to make a long story short, she had one of her temper tantrums today.
OPERATOR: OK.
R. KILLPACK: We needed to give her quite a bit of water. She threw up and things were fine. And then, all of the sudden, she is just not there. She is not there. We can't keep her eyes open.
OPERATOR: OK, what is your address?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LIN: Prosecutors said the water depleted Cassandra's sodium and electrolyte level, causing the brain swelling that actually killed her.
Now her adoptive parents are facing child abuse homicide charges. They are here with us now, along with their attorney, Philip Danielson, from Provo. Also, we have prosecutor Sherry Ragan, who is in Midvale tonight.
Mr. Killpack, let me begin with you. And thank you very much for joining us tonight.
That was you on the 911 call. What exactly was happening at that very moment? R. KILLPACK: Just as described on -- that you heard there, my little girl walked over and she did pass out, as I said. She went limp in our arms. So we, of course, called 911. And we were very confused of what happened or why she was in that state, but, obviously, it was pretty serious.
LIN: What sort of therapy was she undergoing? Because I understand that the water that you were feeding her was a form of bonding therapy that you are claiming therapists had recommended to help you deal with some of her emotional problems.
R. KILLPACK: Our child was diagnosed with a severe case of reactive attachment disorder.
The therapy center that we were seeing or that was helping us with Cassandra had several methods that were teaching us -- or helping us to teach her how to love or to understand that we were her mom and dad and that we could care for her.
LIN: So how does force-feeding her large amounts of water help you do that?
PHILIP DANIELSON, ATTORNEY FOR THE KILLPACKS: Well, let me answer that, if you don't mind, Carol.
They did not attempt to force-feed her water in any type of egregious manner. What they were trying to do was simply comply with some rules, some predesignated rules to help Cassandra in being able to understand that mom and dad were there to nurture them. But in no way did they force-feed water. I know that is the allegation, but that simply did not happen.
LIN: Well, let me ask Mrs. Killpack, then, if you weren't force- feeding her water, what were you doing? And how do you explain how she died?
JENNETE KILLPACK, MOTHER OF CASSANDRA: We were giving her -- she needed to drink three glasses of water. She only proceeded to drink a glass and a half and was refusing to do the rest. And we had her get down. And she went to timeout.
LIN: Was she fighting you? Was she gagging at the time?
J. KILLPACK: She never gagged, no.
LIN: Did you have to restrain her in any way?
J. KILLPACK: No.
LIN: Sherry Ragan, let me ask you, then. The parents are claiming that they had fed Cassandra 12 ounces of water. Do you believe that to be true? Is that enough to kill a child?
SHERRY RAGAN, UTAH COUNTY PROSECUTOR: No, not at all. That is contrary to any medical evidence in this case. It's also contrary to the Killpacks' prior statements. They have made several previous statements that they're now contradicting, including admitting in the past giving her quite a bit more water than that, and also admitting in the past that they restrained her by tying a rope on her arms, and tying her arms back, and also physically restraining her and forcing the water down her.
LIN: And you're actually claiming in this case that they asked their 7-year-old child to retrieve the rope and even help to restrain Cassandra? Is that true?
RAGAN: That's correct.
Their 7-year-old has been interviewed and indicated -- and also the Killpacks have -- Mrs. Killpack has indicated that, at the point that she wasn't able to control Cassandra and force the water down her that she asked her to go in the bathroom and retrieve the rope, which Collie (ph) said she did, that she went in and got the rope, came back.
And she demonstrated to the officers who interviewed her how Cassandra's arms were tied back and that they remained tied back as Mr. Killpack continued to hold her head back and force her to drink water until Mr. Killpack came in and then physically restrained her also.
LIN: Mrs. Killpack, this is a very different story that the prosecutors are painting here. What is your reaction?
J. KILLPACK: I am completely shocked. She was never restrained while the water was being forced by her by any means. I would never do anything of that manner. And my daughter certainly did not participate in holding down, by any means. That is just absolutely false.
LIN: Well, then, how do you fight -- or how do you argue the physical evidence that the prosecutors are claiming they have?
DANIELSON: Well, unfortunately, Carol, we don't want to argue this in the court of public opinion. We will argue it in court in a trial in the proper setting.
But this is not the proper place. We simply want the public to understand that what has been portrayed is different than what happened. And Ms. Ragan and I will present our evidence. And I think, at the end of the day, the parents will be exonerated.
LIN: Ms. Ragan, you're planning on taking this to court. Is there anything in the evidence that can be rationalized that this was merely a tragic and horrible accident?
RAGAN: No, not at all.
The evidence in this case indicates that there is a prior history of abuse with these two parents and this particular child. It's been reported to us by numerous neighbors, by friends. And even Mr. Killpack's own mother was very concerned about the way that this child was treated. At one point, Mrs. Killpack even tried to choke this child and to kill her on a prior occasion.
That, and along with the medical evidence, which contradicts anything that the Killpacks have said, indicates that this was a forced-water intoxication. Also, the child apparently had eaten properly, had behaved not in an unusual manner just prior to this, indicating that she wasn't having any kinds of problems before this. The body is able to pretty much take care of water as it comes in. But because of the excessive amounts that were given in this case, the child died as a result of it.
LIN: How does it happen? I have never heard of this before. I have never heard of this before.
RAGAN: It's very unusual.
LIN: Mr. and Mrs. Killpack, I want to give you the last word in the few seconds that we have left.
For those people out there who are hearing these conflicting statements and understand the very troubled history that your child had, this emotional history, what do you say to people who say: "You know what? This was an opportunity, whether it was experimental therapy or not, to do something permanent about a troubled child that was simply disrupting the family, and you couldn't take it anymore"?
R. KILLPACK: We had the choice of having Cassandra. We obviously adopted her. We loved her very, very much. And we spent every amount of our time and resources to help this little girl.
The allegations that are made against us are just completely false. There were -- she had a lot of troubles. And we went through a lot of things with her and a lot of therapy. And there were a lot of opinions going both ways about our little girl.
But the bottom line is, is that we treated her with everything we possibly could. We went to all of the experts. They saw what we were doing and how we were doing it and said that we were doing what we needed to do. And we were simply following their advice on that Sunday evening when our little girl passed away.
LIN: Well, I'm sure all of this will come out in the trial, should it make it that far.
Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Killpack, Philip Danielson, their attorney, Sherry Ragan, the prosecutor. Thanks for joining us.
Now, coming up: President Bush asks Congress for authorization to attack Iraq.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, she says:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONNER: The next morning, he called me at the office and propositioned me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: He says:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Have you ever had sexual relations with Tina Conner?
PATTON: I have not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The governor and accusations he used his power for revenge.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: I spoke earlier with Congressman Rahall at the Capitol in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Congressman Rahall, thanks for joining us.
Iraq now says they will allow unconditional access to weapons inspectors throughout the country to various sites. But they have made this pledge in the past. Why should the United States believe them?
RAHALL: This is a step in the right direction. The Iraqi statement is certainly not all I had asked for during my recent trip to Baghdad. I want unconditional and unfettered access to all of their sites, be they presidential palaces, schools, mosques, whatever other buildings where he may be hiding weapons, so that we hit them and then he claims collateral damage has hit innocent individuals.
COOPER: You say it's a step in the right direction, but how do you know it's not just Saddam Hussein trying to buy some time?
RAHALL: Oh, I agree he certainly has done that in the past. He is very deceitful, deceptive. He has lied.
But here is an opening that we may be able to pursue for a peaceful resolution to this conflict. I stressed in all of my meetings with the Iraqi leadership that George Bush is serious, that, if the Iraqis want to prevent further suffering to their people, they must, without any gimmicks, allow unfettered and unconditional access to their country.
So they're looking for some light at the end of the tunnel. After all, they see statements that it doesn't matter what they do; they are going to get bombed anyway. COOPER: Well, you say they are looking for light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of other people say they're looking for nuclear weapons and chemical and biological weapons. Do you believe Saddam Hussein is seeking out weapons of mass destruction?
RAHALL: I don't know. That is a big question I have.
I'm a member of Congress, that is being asked to vote on this. I do not have that knowledge at my disposal. I've been to the CIA briefings. I've been to the DIA briefings. I've been to briefing after briefing. I can't get that question answered with any type of definitive response. Yes, we're worried. So is everybody else in the world.
It may or may not be they are developing needs. We need the experts in there. We need weapons inspectors in there that know what they're looking for, that know how to do their job. And they need to report to us.
COOPER: Your trip has been somewhat controversial. You've come back and you've made some statements that have angered some people, some critics. Do you worry at all that you and the people you were on, on this trip with are being used by the Iraqi regime?
RAHALL: Quite the contrary.
I think the fact that we did not get a meeting with Saddam Hussein is because he was upset that he could not manipulate us. They wanted to take us out to a weapons site, for example, and parade us around and then let us be seen as certifying to the world that they have no WMD, or no nuclear arsenals. I refused to do that.
I said: "Hey, I didn't come here as a weapons inspector. I wouldn't know nuclear power from powdered sugar. So don't take me out and parade me around there. That is not my mission." When they saw they could not manipulate us, then I think Saddam decided he was not going to meet with us.
COOPER: You have gotten a pretty unique glimpse at the country. I think you were there for about two days. What did you see? Were you able to talk to any ordinary Iraqis? Obviously, you were being followed a lot, I would imagine, by secret police, in many regards.
RAHALL: The latter is true, but we did have a community meeting on Sunday night of our trip, in which we tried to have a frank discussion with representatives of the various aspects of society.
It was not completely successful in ridding ourselves of our handlers. And, of course, the people were still not secure in speaking their mind. But when they pull you aside, you can very much ascertain how they truly feel. And they, the Iraqi people, may be the first to say that Saddam Hussein must go, but the Americans are the last they want to hear it from. They have a real problem with our policy in the region. And the people themselves want peace.
And I repeated President George Bush's line. "Our problem is not with the Iraqi people, but with your leadership." And I think the Iraqi people feel the same way about us.
COOPER: In your opinion, does the Iraqi leadership have any credibility whatsoever?
RAHALL: Obviously not. But that is not the point here.
I think the point is, we should pursue any avenue for peace. I have not seen evidence of a direct, imminent threat to the United States. I worry about the effects a premature hit on Iraq may have on the coalition that George Bush has effectively put together to fight the true terrorists, al Qaeda. Let's beef up that war. Let's talk about that, Osama bin Laden, and go after them with a greater deal of force. They're right here in our country. They are a direct, imminent threat. They've been trained here in America before.
COOPER: So you don't believe Saddam Hussein is a direct threat to the United States?
RAHALL: No.
Now, I supported George Bush I, when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. There, we had an international coalition that strongly supported our actions. We had the proof that Saddam Hussein was a threat to his neighbors. Here, he has now normalized relations with Kuwait. I'm not sure we have that hostility from his neighbors that we had before. They are the ones, after all, who should be the most afraid of a direct, imminent threat.
COOPER: All right, Congressman Rahall, thanks very much for joining us tonight. Thanks.
RAHALL: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Still ahead: new accusations that a Southern governor had an affair and used his power to keep it quiet. And it's not who you think it might be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: We are going to get to story about the he said/she said at the governor's mansion in a moment.
COOPER: And it's quite a story.
(NEWS BREAK)
LIN: Well, still ahead: a Southern governor and charges of sexual hijinks, but it's not who you think.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So, if this next story sounds familiar, just bear with us. A woman has come forward claiming that she had an affair with a Southern governor and that he used his political and official power to punish her for leaving him. As it turns out, though, the only Clinton in this story is the town of Clinton, Kentucky, where the woman owned a nursing home.
We get the rest now from CNN's Bruce Morton.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She is Tina Conner, 40, Democratic Party activist. He is second-term Governor Paul Patton, 65. She told WHAS in Louisville he made a pass at her at a 1997 fund-raiser.
CONNER: The next morning, he called me at the office and propositioned me.
QUESTION: What did he say?
CONNER: "What do you think about let's get together?" He didn't say let's -- that's basically how it was. He let me know in so many uncertain terms, because he had fondled my breast the night before.
MORTON: The governor denied it.
QUESTION: Have you ever had sexual relations with Tina Conner?
PATTON: I have not.
QUESTION: You never had sexual relations with this woman?
PATTON: I have not.
MORTON: She says she ended the affair trying to save her marriage, which ended in divorce, but he kept after her by telephone.
CONNER: What the governor said to me was: "Where have you been? Why haven't you been to Frankfort? Have you forgotten about me?"
MORTON: She says he sicced state regulators on a nursing home she and her then-husband owned because she broke off the affair. He says no. And state health officials say they were investigating a citizen's complaint. In any case, investigators found pages of violations. The nursing home filed for bankruptcy.
CONNER: It just wiped us out. It just absolutely desecrated the facility.
PATTON: I thought that we had explained to her that we just simply couldn't do anything about the regulatory process.
CONNER: I know that he is not telling me the truth. And I am not going down in flames alone.
PATTON: I've considered us to be friends up until just very recently. I didn't realize that she was this upset.
MORTON: She has filed suit, charging sexual harassment. He says he'll fight it.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: He said/she said.
Governor Patton declined to appear tonight. He reiterated his denial of any physical relationship with Tina Conner.
Right now, we are going to go to Louisville, Kentucky, and the reporter who broke the story: Mark Hebert of WHAS Channel 11.
Mark, thanks for being with us.
MARK HEBERT, WHAS REPORTER: Hi, Anderson.
COOPER: Is there any evidence to support Ms. Conner's claims?
HEBERT: There is circumstantial evidence, but no hard evidence. Pardon the pun there. I didn't mean to say that quite that way.
COOPER: Well, the circumstantial evidence that you're talking about is what.
HEBERT: She has some hotel records, some phone records of calls to the governor's office. She says she's also got friends of hers. And I talked to a few of them who claim that they overheard conversations between Governor Patton and Ms. Conner.
There is some circumstantial evidence. If you're asking me, "Do we have videotapes; do we have recordings?" the answer simply is no, not that we are aware of.
COOPER: Because you would think, if this went on for several years and they allegedly -- as she is alleging -- met in hotel rooms, you would think there were hotel clerks, there were state troopers, there were other government employees who would, theoretically, know about this, if it is in fact true.
HEBERT: Well, this happened between 1997 and 1999, according to Ms. Conner. So you got a little time period, time lag here. So hotel clerks are going to be hard to find, because those are turnover jobs.
State troopers, the head of Governor Patton's security detail said today that he didn't wait around in any hotel parking lots for five or six hours while the governor was in a room having sex. But he didn't flatly deny that he dropped the governor off at these hotels.
So the bottom line is, Anderson, you got reporters all over Frankfort and Louisville and Lexington, Kentucky, scrambling around looking for records, trying to either support Ms. Conner's theory or her claims or trying to support the governor's denials.
COOPER: No doubt there are a lot of people working this story tonight and for the next couple of weeks, I'm sure. Who is Tina Conner? What do we know about her? And what would possibly explain the phone calls she has to the governor's mansion? Is there another explanation for that?
HEBERT: Yes, I think there is.
She is a member of the Kentucky Lottery Board. Governor Patton appointed her to the Kentucky Lottery Board in the year 2000. She is a member of another commission, another state commission. Patton appointed her to that job as well. She owns a nursing home in Western Kentucky. She owns a construction business in Western Kentucky.
And one part of this story that didn't come across in Bruce's story is her claim that while she was having sex with the governor, he was returning the favor by giving her businesses favorable treatment by state regulators. And that is the one that could ultimately get Governor Patton in trouble, is if federal officials come in, if the FBI comes in and finds that he indeed exchanged some favors for sex. He could be in deep trouble.
COOPER: And have any state employees come forward and said: "You know what? We did get some pressure"?
HEBERT: One state employee that used to work in the state transportation cabinet told "The Louisville Courier-Journal" yesterday that indeed he felt pressured to give a special contract designation to Mrs. Conner's company. He did not say where that pressure came from. He said it did not come directly from Governor Patton.
COOPER: It wasn't just Ms. Conner, though, who benefited -- who was appointed to a state board. Her husband also received an appointment from the governor. Isn't that right?
HEBERT: Right. It's her ex-husband now.
Both of the Conners were political contributors and contributed to Governor Patton's campaigns. And so he appointed them to boards and commissions here in the state of Kentucky. So that is just tit- for-tat. That's normal business in the state of Kentucky, and I suspect elsewhere around the country. You reward your political supporters and those that give you money with positions on state boards. And that is exactly what Governor Patton did in this instance.
COOPER: Well, I know she has filed for bankruptcy. Her nursing home, I guess, has been shut down.
HEBERT: Well, no, the nursing home is still open, but only by a thread. It has filed for bankruptcy. There's only 11 residents left in that nursing home right now. And she is ticked off about it. She says that Governor Patton was behind the state's effort to try and shut down her nursing home. And that is why she came forward and she has filed this lawsuit.
COOPER: And she filed the lawsuit yesterday.
Mark Hebert, who broke the story, thanks very much for joining us tonight.
HEBERT: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: We'll probably check in with you again in the coming days and weeks. Thanks very much, Mark.
HEBERT: Thank you.
COOPER: We will be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up: Fur is flying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREEMAN: In this ordinance, they have a definition of a stray as any cat without a collar. Mine are licensed, but I can't keep collars on them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Would you let your neighbors or your local government tell you what to do with your pets?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Changing gears now to a story about one of those internal struggles. Actually, it's a story about two internal struggles: dog vs. cat, neighbor vs. neighbor.
LIN: Anchor vs. anchor.
Well, did you know there are 59 million cats in America? It's kind of frightening, huh?
COOPER: I did not know that.
LIN: Well, there you go. And there are 52 million dogs.
COOPER: So there are more cats than dogs?
LIN: There are. Consider that for discussion later tonight.
Well, add one New Jersey town and a new law which has some pet owners howling mad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): This is a tale of two neighbors who are feuding like cats and dogs. And the fight is over how many cats a person can have in the New Jersey township of -- get this -- Morris. Sharon Remlinger claims her neighbor, Dian Freeman, has nearly 30 cats.
REMLINGER: It's not a personal vendetta. We've lived across the street from each other for 26 years. I was just tired of the cats on my property. And I was tired of the smell of my bushes.
LIN: The neighbor, Dian Freeman, says she only has 12 cats.
FREEMAN: A private disagreement has definitely become an issue that the town has taken seriously.
LIN: So seriously that, last night, the Morris Township Health Department amended its cat ordinance. The new law states, "No person shall keep, harbor or maintain more than 10 cats at any one time."
FREEMAN: It's a definite death sentence for my cats, because my neighbor has got a vendetta. And tomorrow morning, she will call St. Huberts and St. Huberts will come and collect them.
REMLINGER: With the number of cats that roam the street, there is little kids there. There is other pets. This is a health issue.
LIN: Another issue in this catfight is that any cat found without an identification tag is automatically considered a stray and can be destroyed if not claimed or adopted within seven days.
FREEMAN: They have a definition of a stray as any cat without a collar. Mine are licensed, but I can't keep collars on them.
REMLINGER: Most of those strays live in the sewers with the raccoons and the skunks. They don't live in a house. To me, a cat is somebody you curl up on your sofa with.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Sharon Remlinger declined to comment.
COOPER: I can't imagine why.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: No, I can't imagine.
But we do have the cat woman against the center of all of this. Dian Freeman is with us from Morris Township, New Jersey.
COOPER: Well, with Ms. Freeman, with all those cats to feed, I imagine you're pretty busy, so we appreciate you taking the time to speak with us tonight.
Your neighbor has said that you have as many 30 cats at times roaming around the property, urinating on her bushes. Is that true? Do you have that many cats?
FREEMAN: I have 12 licensed cats. And sometimes I'll get a visit from Sid and Percy from down on Jockey Hollow. And sometimes I'll get a visit, but they don't stay long.
And they do use -- they use the drains as their highway, because they stay away from the cars and the dogs that way. So they go in the end of the street, go into the drain, and come out here and visit. And they all greet each other with their heads rubbing. And then they will talk awhile and take a nap and then go home. But that doesn't happen that often. Patsy doesn't like to leave, but she wants to leave now.
LIN: I don't blame her.
Dian, why do you need 12 cats?
FREEMAN: Well, I don't even think that it's an issue that our government should get involved in what I need. I think this is a liberty issue. I think that I have the right to. And I have the property. And I have the surroundings. I have the home.
LIN: But they're saying -- Dian, they're saying it's a health issue. They're saying it's a health issue, that your cats are urinating on your neighbors' lawns, that they're wandering the neighborhood freely, and that they are a public nuisance.
FREEMAN: Well, I don't think that is true. And I think that people that are saying that across the nation about cats just don't know much about cats.
It can't be a health issue, because my cats -- last year alone, I spent $6,000 on J.J. just on his vet bills. My cats are cared for better than some children, a lot of children.
COOPER: Let me ask. There is an ordinance in existence, though, which limits the number of dogs that people can have already in Morris Township. I think, depending on the size of your house, you can have between three and five dogs. If you can limit the number of dogs, why shouldn't you be able to limit the number of cats? Clearly, I'm a dog person here, so I'm maybe a little biased.
FREEMAN: And I'm a dog person, too. I had five dogs until I got cats 15 years ago.
Dogs bark. We were just outside and all the dogs in the neighborhood are barking like crazy. I love that. I think making laws that restrict people's rights just because one neighbor is disturbed, I think that is unconstitutional. I think that is unkind. I think it's lacking compassion.
LIN: You have said -- and I'm wondering how much the health department's power, how big a power that they actually have in the situation, because you're saying, "If they come to my house and try to get in, I am going to defend it with my life."
FREEMAN: Yes, I will.
I will defend it with my life, because I think this is a liberty issue. The message here should be -- there was like five people there last night. People should get involved in what is happening locally, because this affects 21,000 people of this town. There's 4,000 families with cats in this town, if statistics follow through, and only 500 licensed -- and farms around here with 30 cats each or however many. It doesn't matter. It's none of our business. We live in the country. There's no houses close together.
LIN: So, if you feel like your cats are jeopardized, if you feel like their lives are at stake, why don't you give away some of them?
FREEMAN: Well, I have, since this has started, called every single animal group in the state that I know of. And I have tried to.
But you know what? We are talking about what I consider my children. And most people who own cats and own dogs feel that way. And how fair is that, to rip them from their homes?
COOPER: And we should point out that you say you have 12 cats now. They're all licensed. That meets the ordinance. So no one is going to be taking away any of your 12 cats. It's the stray cats which are the problem.
FREEMAN: I would like to make this statement for everyone who loves and cares for cats. There are so many. Every one of these places I called have so many cats they need to adopt out. Why worry about how many when a home has got enough means and enough love to go around for these cats?
COOPER: Are they all spayed?
FREEMAN: Of course they are. They have to be to be licensed. They have to have rabies shots.
So the issue is, they keep trying to slant the issue over into a stray issue. My problem is, now all my 12 cats are considered legally -- they made a new definition for stray, this town, last night. Legally, any cat, even if they know it's a pet, they know that it's licensed and I paid to have it licensed, it is now a stray because it won't keep a collar on. And that is a death warrant in this town.
COOPER: All right, Ms. Freeman, thanks very much. You defended your cats very well. Thanks for being with us tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: And redefined cat lover for me.
Thank you, Dian Freeman in Morris Township.
All right, we do have a statement from the Morris Township Health Department. It released a statement to us, saying: "We feel this is a fair compromise in an attempt to control the licensing of cats and protecting property rights and public health."
COOPER: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Love of cats may have helped kill the career of movie star Sean Young. Her attempt to win the role of Catwoman in "Batman Returns" was one of the most notorious in a string of incidents. She not only made her own Catwoman suit; she showed up on the lot and tried to get Director Tim Burton to meet with her.
SEAN YOUNG, ACTRESS: I want everybody not to go see the movie. And I want everyone to wait until it comes out on video.
ANNOUNCER: Young had previously lost out on a role in Burton's first "Batman" movie due to an injury. Although she began in Hollywood with notable performances in "Blade Runner" and "No Way Out," her career was torpedoed by her feud with Burton, a reputation as difficult, and perhaps most of all, actor James Woods' claim that she harassed him after an affair, a claim she denied.
So what happened to the once hot actress who couldn't catch "Batman" or a break? The answer when we return.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: What happened to actress Sean Young after her career collapsed under the weight of a series of incidents, including her failed bid to play Catwoman? She left Hollywood and spent a decade living in the Arizona desert with her husband and two kids. Two years ago, she returned to Hollywood and announced her comeback. But with roles in such flicks as "Poor White Trash" and "In the Shadow of the Cobra," it seems that maybe Hollywood didn't get the memo.
YOUNG: Does that mean I'm so scary?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A tough time to be a cat these days.
COOPER: I know.
So are you a cat person?
LIN: I am totally a cat person -- Billy Hobe Robinson (ph), 23 pounds of love.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: You're not?
COOPER: I'm more of a dog person. Yes, I'm just more of a dog person.
LIN: Well, what I don't understand is why Dian Freeman needs 12 cats.
COOPER: I think she needs 12 cats because you're guaranteed, with 12 cats, at least one of them will be affectionate toward you at any one time. Cats are so -- they don't even pay attention to you.
LIN: That is so not fair. They totally pay attention to you. They bond with one person.
Have you ever had a cat?
COOPER: No.
LIN: Well, there you go.
COOPER: All right.
LIN: And cats usually find you, especially if they know you don't like them.
All right, well, tomorrow: Miss America, there she goes. We're going to talk to her in her final days of her reign.
COOPER: And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": the mother of Samantha Runnion on the latest hearing for Alejandro Avila, the man accused of kidnapping and killing her.
Thanks for joining us. Good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Water; Washington Filled With Debate Over Iraq>
Aired September 19, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Anderson Cooper.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Lin.
Tonight, the unthinkable: what a mother did to her own daughter on tape.
ANNOUNCER: Caught on tape: A mother attacks her own child. Now she is the target of a manhunt. The question: Why did she do it?
Plus: a tragic story involving another 4-year-old.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
RICHARD KILLPACK, FATHER OF CASSANDRA: We can't keep her eyes open. We can't keep her head up.
OPERATOR: What is your...
(CROSSTALK)
R. KILLPACK: I don't know what is wrong. It looks like a seizure, but it's not.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Her parents charged with homicide for forcing the child to overdose on water.
Showdown: Iraq -- from the White House...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are no negotiations to be held with Iraq. They have nothing to negotiate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... to the halls of Congress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The goal isn't inspections. The goal is disarmament. That is what was agreed to by Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: one U.S. lawmaker who has been on the streets of Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NICK RAHALL (D), WEST VIRGINIA: Here is an opening that we may be able to pursue for a peaceful resolution to this conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Will the threat of war keep the peace?
Scandal in the Kentucky Statehouse: The governor is sued for sexual harassment by one of his own political appointees...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Have you ever had sexual relations with Tina Conner?
GOV. PAUL PATTON (D), KENTUCKY: I have not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... and accused of using his power to ruin her business.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TINA CONNER, PATTON ACCUSER: It just wiped us out. It just absolutely desecrated the facility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A high-profile case of he said/she said in the Bluegrass State.
Catfight: a small town divided in a feline feud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON REMLINGER, NEIGHBOR OF CAT OWNER: There's little kids there. There's other pets. This is a health issue.
DIAN FREEMAN, CAT OWNER: A private disagreement has definitely become an issue that the town has taken seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Cat vs. dog, neighbor against neighbor: How far would you go to protect your pets?
Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, for Connie Chung: Anderson Cooper and Carol Lin. COOPER: Good evening, everyone.
Tonight, a police manhunt is under way for a little girl and her mother.
LIN: The reason: a videotape that is almost too painful to watch. We just had a visceral reaction to it when we saw it.
COOPER: Yes, absolutely. In fact, we want to warn you at home, it may not be appropriate for everyone in your family to see tonight.
LIN: That's right.
This tape shows something that goes well beyond a parent disciplining a child. This started outside the Kohl's department store in Mishawaka, Indiana, after a woman identified by police as Madelyne Gorman Toogood was reportedly turned away from the store.
As she put her daughter into the back seat, she struck her and apparently repeated to strike her for no reason. That is immediately apparent from the tape. Now, despite the furious and repeated blows, it is not clear how many were punches and how many were slaps. And we can't easily determine where exactly the blows fell or with what force.
Now, all told, the woman appears to land more than a dozen blows in the space of 25 seconds. Police are very worried that the child needs medical attention now. And that is one of the reasons why they are hunting the woman.
Now, earlier, I spoke with Mishawaka Assistant Police Chief Michael Samp, who joined us from South Bend.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Chief Samp, thanks so much for joining us tonight.
MICHAEL SAMP, MISHAWAKA POLICE DEPARTMENT: My pleasure.
LIN: It sounds like you were able to gather more clue from that videotape that we just saw earlier, that you were able to actually track down the Texas license plate as well as the white SUV itself?
SAMP: That is correct.
LIN: What are you going to do with that information? Have you been able to trace the vehicle?
SAMP: Right.
We actually have impounded the vehicle. The vehicle is currently at our police department being processed for potential evidence that may have occurred during the attack.
LIN: And you were able to trace the woman's family as well, right? SAMP: That is correct.
LIN: So what did they tell you about where she is?
SAMP: Well, right now, initially, they told us that she had left the area shortly thereafter the attack took place. But since that time, we've gotten conflicting reports from other family members and from other witnesses in the area.
LIN: So what do you make of that? Why is it that you're getting conflicting information?
SAMP: Well, we believe that the victim is with the suspect and that the suspect is trying to elude apprehension at this time. So she is being hid out by the family members so that she won't face any kind of criminal problems.
LIN: So she is well aware that you're hunting her down right now.
SAMP: I believe so, yes.
LIN: Are you releasing her name or a description?
SAMP: Yes, we are. Her name is Madelyne. And the last name is Gorman or Toogood. She is a female, white, approximately 25, 26 years of age.
LIN: Does she have a criminal history?
SAMP: We found a minor criminal history. We are still researching that.
LIN: But anything involving child abuse?
SAMP: No, ma'am.
LIN: Is this her only child?
SAMP: No, ma'am, it's not.
LIN: It's not?
Are you going to have a hard time tracking her down, then? It wouldn't seem to me that she would be difficult to find.
SAMP: Well, thanks to the aid of the media and the public at large, we've received many, many tips over this particular situation. And, of course, we are following up every one of those tips. And we're hopeful that the child will be found, because the primary focus in this whole investigation is getting that child into a medical facility and having her looked at.
LIN: It was absolutely horrifying to look at that tape. We couldn't believe what we saw. And this attack went on for some 25 seconds. The injuries are described as head-and-neck injuries, as well as possibly some hemorrhaging. So it sounds like to me the clock is ticking for this child.
SAMP: Well, we can only surmise the extent of the injuries. But we are very concerned. And, like I say, our primary focus right now is getting that child some medical treatment to make sure that she is not -- there has been no permanent damage.
LIN: The diagnoses that you were able to get, though, just by having a doctor take a look at this videotape is blunt-head trauma. So can you at least give our audience an idea of what the symptoms would be? Would this child be bedridden right now, even conscious?
SAMP: The child may be lethargic. I'm not a doctor, but I would think that the child would be having some sort of problems, maybe possibly dizziness, maybe some sort of nausea, something along those lines.
LIN: Don't you think the mother would be well aware that her child may be in jeopardy, that she has got to get her to the hospital right now?
SAMP: Well, I would hope that the mother would sense that the child could have some sort of damage and would take the appropriate steps.
LIN: Well, what did the family members tell you about this woman? Are they able to communicate with her? Can they at least get her that message that she needs to get her daughter to a doctor?
SAMP: Well, at this time we have expressed these concerns. And we're hopeful that the message will get through to the people responsible, her caring guardians and other loved ones, and they will take the necessary steps, not only to turn the suspect in, which is appropriate, but also to make sure that we get the child so that she can seek the proper medical attention.
LIN: So what is likely going to be your biggest break in this case? Where is it going to from: the family or strangers out there who have seen her?
SAMP: Well, unfortunately, my gut feeling, I think it will probably be from strangers that spot her. I think that is where most of our tips have come from so far, suspected sightings of the little girl.
LIN: All right, well, Chief Samp, I never thought that I would see something like this, see a mother treat her child in this manner, and in such a public place. So let's hope you find her real soon.
Thank you very much.
SAMP: Thank you very much.
LIN: Chief Samp. (END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: And joining me now to bring us up to date on the search and the investigation, we have St. Joseph County deputy prosecutor Maggie Jones.
Ms. Jones, thank you very much for joining us.
MAGGIE JONES, ST. JOSEPH COUNTY DEPUTY PROSECUTOR: Thank you.
LIN: Has anything at all developed in the last few hours in this case?
JONES: It's my understanding that the detectives are still following up every lead. And so far, we have not found the child or the suspect.
LIN: Do you believe that she is still in the state?
JONES: Because of the volume of calls that we are getting with possible sightings or just information, we're hopeful that she is still there.
LIN: Do you think the family, her family actually knows where she is right now?
JONES: If they do, they are not telling us.
LIN: What sort of people would allow this child to be in jeopardy like this? This girl needs immediate medical attention.
JONES: That is a question that we continue to ask. And I know that some of the family members have been shown the video. And they still have not been helpful...
LIN: Really?
JONES: ... in locating that child.
LIN: What was their reaction when they saw the tape?
JONES: I was not present for those interviews. It wasn't the reaction I would have, because, like I said, they haven't been forthcoming.
LIN: All right, so what sort of charges does this woman face right now?
JONES: Felony battery.
LIN: Felony battery?
JONES: Right, with a victim under the age of 14.
LIN: And could the family face charges as well for not either delivering information that could be crucial to this investigation or even harboring her?
JONES: It is against the law to assist a criminal. And so they certainly should be considering that at this time.
LIN: All right, Maggie Jones, we wish you luck in the case and the prosecution, if it comes to that.
JONES: Thank you.
LIN: Thank you very much, Maggie Jones.
Well, another case of alleged child abuse led to criminal charges this week. Richard and Jennete Killpack of Springville, Utah, are charged with abusing and killing their adopted 4-year-old daughter by making her drink large amounts of water. Now, the parents claim it was a form of bonding therapy to discipline their troubled child. Well, the next day, 4-year-old Cassandra Killpack died.
Here is the father's 911 call to police.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
OPERATOR: Hello?
R. KILLPACK: I need someone out here right now for my little daughter.
OPERATOR: OK. What is going on?
R. KILLPACK: She's had a lot of emotional problems. But to make a long story short, she had one of her temper tantrums today.
OPERATOR: OK.
R. KILLPACK: We needed to give her quite a bit of water. She threw up and things were fine. And then, all of the sudden, she is just not there. She is not there. We can't keep her eyes open.
OPERATOR: OK, what is your address?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
LIN: Prosecutors said the water depleted Cassandra's sodium and electrolyte level, causing the brain swelling that actually killed her.
Now her adoptive parents are facing child abuse homicide charges. They are here with us now, along with their attorney, Philip Danielson, from Provo. Also, we have prosecutor Sherry Ragan, who is in Midvale tonight.
Mr. Killpack, let me begin with you. And thank you very much for joining us tonight.
That was you on the 911 call. What exactly was happening at that very moment? R. KILLPACK: Just as described on -- that you heard there, my little girl walked over and she did pass out, as I said. She went limp in our arms. So we, of course, called 911. And we were very confused of what happened or why she was in that state, but, obviously, it was pretty serious.
LIN: What sort of therapy was she undergoing? Because I understand that the water that you were feeding her was a form of bonding therapy that you are claiming therapists had recommended to help you deal with some of her emotional problems.
R. KILLPACK: Our child was diagnosed with a severe case of reactive attachment disorder.
The therapy center that we were seeing or that was helping us with Cassandra had several methods that were teaching us -- or helping us to teach her how to love or to understand that we were her mom and dad and that we could care for her.
LIN: So how does force-feeding her large amounts of water help you do that?
PHILIP DANIELSON, ATTORNEY FOR THE KILLPACKS: Well, let me answer that, if you don't mind, Carol.
They did not attempt to force-feed her water in any type of egregious manner. What they were trying to do was simply comply with some rules, some predesignated rules to help Cassandra in being able to understand that mom and dad were there to nurture them. But in no way did they force-feed water. I know that is the allegation, but that simply did not happen.
LIN: Well, let me ask Mrs. Killpack, then, if you weren't force- feeding her water, what were you doing? And how do you explain how she died?
JENNETE KILLPACK, MOTHER OF CASSANDRA: We were giving her -- she needed to drink three glasses of water. She only proceeded to drink a glass and a half and was refusing to do the rest. And we had her get down. And she went to timeout.
LIN: Was she fighting you? Was she gagging at the time?
J. KILLPACK: She never gagged, no.
LIN: Did you have to restrain her in any way?
J. KILLPACK: No.
LIN: Sherry Ragan, let me ask you, then. The parents are claiming that they had fed Cassandra 12 ounces of water. Do you believe that to be true? Is that enough to kill a child?
SHERRY RAGAN, UTAH COUNTY PROSECUTOR: No, not at all. That is contrary to any medical evidence in this case. It's also contrary to the Killpacks' prior statements. They have made several previous statements that they're now contradicting, including admitting in the past giving her quite a bit more water than that, and also admitting in the past that they restrained her by tying a rope on her arms, and tying her arms back, and also physically restraining her and forcing the water down her.
LIN: And you're actually claiming in this case that they asked their 7-year-old child to retrieve the rope and even help to restrain Cassandra? Is that true?
RAGAN: That's correct.
Their 7-year-old has been interviewed and indicated -- and also the Killpacks have -- Mrs. Killpack has indicated that, at the point that she wasn't able to control Cassandra and force the water down her that she asked her to go in the bathroom and retrieve the rope, which Collie (ph) said she did, that she went in and got the rope, came back.
And she demonstrated to the officers who interviewed her how Cassandra's arms were tied back and that they remained tied back as Mr. Killpack continued to hold her head back and force her to drink water until Mr. Killpack came in and then physically restrained her also.
LIN: Mrs. Killpack, this is a very different story that the prosecutors are painting here. What is your reaction?
J. KILLPACK: I am completely shocked. She was never restrained while the water was being forced by her by any means. I would never do anything of that manner. And my daughter certainly did not participate in holding down, by any means. That is just absolutely false.
LIN: Well, then, how do you fight -- or how do you argue the physical evidence that the prosecutors are claiming they have?
DANIELSON: Well, unfortunately, Carol, we don't want to argue this in the court of public opinion. We will argue it in court in a trial in the proper setting.
But this is not the proper place. We simply want the public to understand that what has been portrayed is different than what happened. And Ms. Ragan and I will present our evidence. And I think, at the end of the day, the parents will be exonerated.
LIN: Ms. Ragan, you're planning on taking this to court. Is there anything in the evidence that can be rationalized that this was merely a tragic and horrible accident?
RAGAN: No, not at all.
The evidence in this case indicates that there is a prior history of abuse with these two parents and this particular child. It's been reported to us by numerous neighbors, by friends. And even Mr. Killpack's own mother was very concerned about the way that this child was treated. At one point, Mrs. Killpack even tried to choke this child and to kill her on a prior occasion.
That, and along with the medical evidence, which contradicts anything that the Killpacks have said, indicates that this was a forced-water intoxication. Also, the child apparently had eaten properly, had behaved not in an unusual manner just prior to this, indicating that she wasn't having any kinds of problems before this. The body is able to pretty much take care of water as it comes in. But because of the excessive amounts that were given in this case, the child died as a result of it.
LIN: How does it happen? I have never heard of this before. I have never heard of this before.
RAGAN: It's very unusual.
LIN: Mr. and Mrs. Killpack, I want to give you the last word in the few seconds that we have left.
For those people out there who are hearing these conflicting statements and understand the very troubled history that your child had, this emotional history, what do you say to people who say: "You know what? This was an opportunity, whether it was experimental therapy or not, to do something permanent about a troubled child that was simply disrupting the family, and you couldn't take it anymore"?
R. KILLPACK: We had the choice of having Cassandra. We obviously adopted her. We loved her very, very much. And we spent every amount of our time and resources to help this little girl.
The allegations that are made against us are just completely false. There were -- she had a lot of troubles. And we went through a lot of things with her and a lot of therapy. And there were a lot of opinions going both ways about our little girl.
But the bottom line is, is that we treated her with everything we possibly could. We went to all of the experts. They saw what we were doing and how we were doing it and said that we were doing what we needed to do. And we were simply following their advice on that Sunday evening when our little girl passed away.
LIN: Well, I'm sure all of this will come out in the trial, should it make it that far.
Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Killpack, Philip Danielson, their attorney, Sherry Ragan, the prosecutor. Thanks for joining us.
Now, coming up: President Bush asks Congress for authorization to attack Iraq.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead, she says:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONNER: The next morning, he called me at the office and propositioned me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: He says:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Have you ever had sexual relations with Tina Conner?
PATTON: I have not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: The governor and accusations he used his power for revenge.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: I spoke earlier with Congressman Rahall at the Capitol in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Congressman Rahall, thanks for joining us.
Iraq now says they will allow unconditional access to weapons inspectors throughout the country to various sites. But they have made this pledge in the past. Why should the United States believe them?
RAHALL: This is a step in the right direction. The Iraqi statement is certainly not all I had asked for during my recent trip to Baghdad. I want unconditional and unfettered access to all of their sites, be they presidential palaces, schools, mosques, whatever other buildings where he may be hiding weapons, so that we hit them and then he claims collateral damage has hit innocent individuals.
COOPER: You say it's a step in the right direction, but how do you know it's not just Saddam Hussein trying to buy some time?
RAHALL: Oh, I agree he certainly has done that in the past. He is very deceitful, deceptive. He has lied.
But here is an opening that we may be able to pursue for a peaceful resolution to this conflict. I stressed in all of my meetings with the Iraqi leadership that George Bush is serious, that, if the Iraqis want to prevent further suffering to their people, they must, without any gimmicks, allow unfettered and unconditional access to their country.
So they're looking for some light at the end of the tunnel. After all, they see statements that it doesn't matter what they do; they are going to get bombed anyway. COOPER: Well, you say they are looking for light at the end of the tunnel. A lot of other people say they're looking for nuclear weapons and chemical and biological weapons. Do you believe Saddam Hussein is seeking out weapons of mass destruction?
RAHALL: I don't know. That is a big question I have.
I'm a member of Congress, that is being asked to vote on this. I do not have that knowledge at my disposal. I've been to the CIA briefings. I've been to the DIA briefings. I've been to briefing after briefing. I can't get that question answered with any type of definitive response. Yes, we're worried. So is everybody else in the world.
It may or may not be they are developing needs. We need the experts in there. We need weapons inspectors in there that know what they're looking for, that know how to do their job. And they need to report to us.
COOPER: Your trip has been somewhat controversial. You've come back and you've made some statements that have angered some people, some critics. Do you worry at all that you and the people you were on, on this trip with are being used by the Iraqi regime?
RAHALL: Quite the contrary.
I think the fact that we did not get a meeting with Saddam Hussein is because he was upset that he could not manipulate us. They wanted to take us out to a weapons site, for example, and parade us around and then let us be seen as certifying to the world that they have no WMD, or no nuclear arsenals. I refused to do that.
I said: "Hey, I didn't come here as a weapons inspector. I wouldn't know nuclear power from powdered sugar. So don't take me out and parade me around there. That is not my mission." When they saw they could not manipulate us, then I think Saddam decided he was not going to meet with us.
COOPER: You have gotten a pretty unique glimpse at the country. I think you were there for about two days. What did you see? Were you able to talk to any ordinary Iraqis? Obviously, you were being followed a lot, I would imagine, by secret police, in many regards.
RAHALL: The latter is true, but we did have a community meeting on Sunday night of our trip, in which we tried to have a frank discussion with representatives of the various aspects of society.
It was not completely successful in ridding ourselves of our handlers. And, of course, the people were still not secure in speaking their mind. But when they pull you aside, you can very much ascertain how they truly feel. And they, the Iraqi people, may be the first to say that Saddam Hussein must go, but the Americans are the last they want to hear it from. They have a real problem with our policy in the region. And the people themselves want peace.
And I repeated President George Bush's line. "Our problem is not with the Iraqi people, but with your leadership." And I think the Iraqi people feel the same way about us.
COOPER: In your opinion, does the Iraqi leadership have any credibility whatsoever?
RAHALL: Obviously not. But that is not the point here.
I think the point is, we should pursue any avenue for peace. I have not seen evidence of a direct, imminent threat to the United States. I worry about the effects a premature hit on Iraq may have on the coalition that George Bush has effectively put together to fight the true terrorists, al Qaeda. Let's beef up that war. Let's talk about that, Osama bin Laden, and go after them with a greater deal of force. They're right here in our country. They are a direct, imminent threat. They've been trained here in America before.
COOPER: So you don't believe Saddam Hussein is a direct threat to the United States?
RAHALL: No.
Now, I supported George Bush I, when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. There, we had an international coalition that strongly supported our actions. We had the proof that Saddam Hussein was a threat to his neighbors. Here, he has now normalized relations with Kuwait. I'm not sure we have that hostility from his neighbors that we had before. They are the ones, after all, who should be the most afraid of a direct, imminent threat.
COOPER: All right, Congressman Rahall, thanks very much for joining us tonight. Thanks.
RAHALL: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Still ahead: new accusations that a Southern governor had an affair and used his power to keep it quiet. And it's not who you think it might be.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LIN: We are going to get to story about the he said/she said at the governor's mansion in a moment.
COOPER: And it's quite a story.
(NEWS BREAK)
LIN: Well, still ahead: a Southern governor and charges of sexual hijinks, but it's not who you think.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So, if this next story sounds familiar, just bear with us. A woman has come forward claiming that she had an affair with a Southern governor and that he used his political and official power to punish her for leaving him. As it turns out, though, the only Clinton in this story is the town of Clinton, Kentucky, where the woman owned a nursing home.
We get the rest now from CNN's Bruce Morton.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She is Tina Conner, 40, Democratic Party activist. He is second-term Governor Paul Patton, 65. She told WHAS in Louisville he made a pass at her at a 1997 fund-raiser.
CONNER: The next morning, he called me at the office and propositioned me.
QUESTION: What did he say?
CONNER: "What do you think about let's get together?" He didn't say let's -- that's basically how it was. He let me know in so many uncertain terms, because he had fondled my breast the night before.
MORTON: The governor denied it.
QUESTION: Have you ever had sexual relations with Tina Conner?
PATTON: I have not.
QUESTION: You never had sexual relations with this woman?
PATTON: I have not.
MORTON: She says she ended the affair trying to save her marriage, which ended in divorce, but he kept after her by telephone.
CONNER: What the governor said to me was: "Where have you been? Why haven't you been to Frankfort? Have you forgotten about me?"
MORTON: She says he sicced state regulators on a nursing home she and her then-husband owned because she broke off the affair. He says no. And state health officials say they were investigating a citizen's complaint. In any case, investigators found pages of violations. The nursing home filed for bankruptcy.
CONNER: It just wiped us out. It just absolutely desecrated the facility.
PATTON: I thought that we had explained to her that we just simply couldn't do anything about the regulatory process.
CONNER: I know that he is not telling me the truth. And I am not going down in flames alone.
PATTON: I've considered us to be friends up until just very recently. I didn't realize that she was this upset.
MORTON: She has filed suit, charging sexual harassment. He says he'll fight it.
Bruce Morton, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: He said/she said.
Governor Patton declined to appear tonight. He reiterated his denial of any physical relationship with Tina Conner.
Right now, we are going to go to Louisville, Kentucky, and the reporter who broke the story: Mark Hebert of WHAS Channel 11.
Mark, thanks for being with us.
MARK HEBERT, WHAS REPORTER: Hi, Anderson.
COOPER: Is there any evidence to support Ms. Conner's claims?
HEBERT: There is circumstantial evidence, but no hard evidence. Pardon the pun there. I didn't mean to say that quite that way.
COOPER: Well, the circumstantial evidence that you're talking about is what.
HEBERT: She has some hotel records, some phone records of calls to the governor's office. She says she's also got friends of hers. And I talked to a few of them who claim that they overheard conversations between Governor Patton and Ms. Conner.
There is some circumstantial evidence. If you're asking me, "Do we have videotapes; do we have recordings?" the answer simply is no, not that we are aware of.
COOPER: Because you would think, if this went on for several years and they allegedly -- as she is alleging -- met in hotel rooms, you would think there were hotel clerks, there were state troopers, there were other government employees who would, theoretically, know about this, if it is in fact true.
HEBERT: Well, this happened between 1997 and 1999, according to Ms. Conner. So you got a little time period, time lag here. So hotel clerks are going to be hard to find, because those are turnover jobs.
State troopers, the head of Governor Patton's security detail said today that he didn't wait around in any hotel parking lots for five or six hours while the governor was in a room having sex. But he didn't flatly deny that he dropped the governor off at these hotels.
So the bottom line is, Anderson, you got reporters all over Frankfort and Louisville and Lexington, Kentucky, scrambling around looking for records, trying to either support Ms. Conner's theory or her claims or trying to support the governor's denials.
COOPER: No doubt there are a lot of people working this story tonight and for the next couple of weeks, I'm sure. Who is Tina Conner? What do we know about her? And what would possibly explain the phone calls she has to the governor's mansion? Is there another explanation for that?
HEBERT: Yes, I think there is.
She is a member of the Kentucky Lottery Board. Governor Patton appointed her to the Kentucky Lottery Board in the year 2000. She is a member of another commission, another state commission. Patton appointed her to that job as well. She owns a nursing home in Western Kentucky. She owns a construction business in Western Kentucky.
And one part of this story that didn't come across in Bruce's story is her claim that while she was having sex with the governor, he was returning the favor by giving her businesses favorable treatment by state regulators. And that is the one that could ultimately get Governor Patton in trouble, is if federal officials come in, if the FBI comes in and finds that he indeed exchanged some favors for sex. He could be in deep trouble.
COOPER: And have any state employees come forward and said: "You know what? We did get some pressure"?
HEBERT: One state employee that used to work in the state transportation cabinet told "The Louisville Courier-Journal" yesterday that indeed he felt pressured to give a special contract designation to Mrs. Conner's company. He did not say where that pressure came from. He said it did not come directly from Governor Patton.
COOPER: It wasn't just Ms. Conner, though, who benefited -- who was appointed to a state board. Her husband also received an appointment from the governor. Isn't that right?
HEBERT: Right. It's her ex-husband now.
Both of the Conners were political contributors and contributed to Governor Patton's campaigns. And so he appointed them to boards and commissions here in the state of Kentucky. So that is just tit- for-tat. That's normal business in the state of Kentucky, and I suspect elsewhere around the country. You reward your political supporters and those that give you money with positions on state boards. And that is exactly what Governor Patton did in this instance.
COOPER: Well, I know she has filed for bankruptcy. Her nursing home, I guess, has been shut down.
HEBERT: Well, no, the nursing home is still open, but only by a thread. It has filed for bankruptcy. There's only 11 residents left in that nursing home right now. And she is ticked off about it. She says that Governor Patton was behind the state's effort to try and shut down her nursing home. And that is why she came forward and she has filed this lawsuit.
COOPER: And she filed the lawsuit yesterday.
Mark Hebert, who broke the story, thanks very much for joining us tonight.
HEBERT: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: We'll probably check in with you again in the coming days and weeks. Thanks very much, Mark.
HEBERT: Thank you.
COOPER: We will be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up: Fur is flying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FREEMAN: In this ordinance, they have a definition of a stray as any cat without a collar. Mine are licensed, but I can't keep collars on them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Would you let your neighbors or your local government tell you what to do with your pets?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Changing gears now to a story about one of those internal struggles. Actually, it's a story about two internal struggles: dog vs. cat, neighbor vs. neighbor.
LIN: Anchor vs. anchor.
Well, did you know there are 59 million cats in America? It's kind of frightening, huh?
COOPER: I did not know that.
LIN: Well, there you go. And there are 52 million dogs.
COOPER: So there are more cats than dogs?
LIN: There are. Consider that for discussion later tonight.
Well, add one New Jersey town and a new law which has some pet owners howling mad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): This is a tale of two neighbors who are feuding like cats and dogs. And the fight is over how many cats a person can have in the New Jersey township of -- get this -- Morris. Sharon Remlinger claims her neighbor, Dian Freeman, has nearly 30 cats.
REMLINGER: It's not a personal vendetta. We've lived across the street from each other for 26 years. I was just tired of the cats on my property. And I was tired of the smell of my bushes.
LIN: The neighbor, Dian Freeman, says she only has 12 cats.
FREEMAN: A private disagreement has definitely become an issue that the town has taken seriously.
LIN: So seriously that, last night, the Morris Township Health Department amended its cat ordinance. The new law states, "No person shall keep, harbor or maintain more than 10 cats at any one time."
FREEMAN: It's a definite death sentence for my cats, because my neighbor has got a vendetta. And tomorrow morning, she will call St. Huberts and St. Huberts will come and collect them.
REMLINGER: With the number of cats that roam the street, there is little kids there. There is other pets. This is a health issue.
LIN: Another issue in this catfight is that any cat found without an identification tag is automatically considered a stray and can be destroyed if not claimed or adopted within seven days.
FREEMAN: They have a definition of a stray as any cat without a collar. Mine are licensed, but I can't keep collars on them.
REMLINGER: Most of those strays live in the sewers with the raccoons and the skunks. They don't live in a house. To me, a cat is somebody you curl up on your sofa with.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: Sharon Remlinger declined to comment.
COOPER: I can't imagine why.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: No, I can't imagine.
But we do have the cat woman against the center of all of this. Dian Freeman is with us from Morris Township, New Jersey.
COOPER: Well, with Ms. Freeman, with all those cats to feed, I imagine you're pretty busy, so we appreciate you taking the time to speak with us tonight.
Your neighbor has said that you have as many 30 cats at times roaming around the property, urinating on her bushes. Is that true? Do you have that many cats?
FREEMAN: I have 12 licensed cats. And sometimes I'll get a visit from Sid and Percy from down on Jockey Hollow. And sometimes I'll get a visit, but they don't stay long.
And they do use -- they use the drains as their highway, because they stay away from the cars and the dogs that way. So they go in the end of the street, go into the drain, and come out here and visit. And they all greet each other with their heads rubbing. And then they will talk awhile and take a nap and then go home. But that doesn't happen that often. Patsy doesn't like to leave, but she wants to leave now.
LIN: I don't blame her.
Dian, why do you need 12 cats?
FREEMAN: Well, I don't even think that it's an issue that our government should get involved in what I need. I think this is a liberty issue. I think that I have the right to. And I have the property. And I have the surroundings. I have the home.
LIN: But they're saying -- Dian, they're saying it's a health issue. They're saying it's a health issue, that your cats are urinating on your neighbors' lawns, that they're wandering the neighborhood freely, and that they are a public nuisance.
FREEMAN: Well, I don't think that is true. And I think that people that are saying that across the nation about cats just don't know much about cats.
It can't be a health issue, because my cats -- last year alone, I spent $6,000 on J.J. just on his vet bills. My cats are cared for better than some children, a lot of children.
COOPER: Let me ask. There is an ordinance in existence, though, which limits the number of dogs that people can have already in Morris Township. I think, depending on the size of your house, you can have between three and five dogs. If you can limit the number of dogs, why shouldn't you be able to limit the number of cats? Clearly, I'm a dog person here, so I'm maybe a little biased.
FREEMAN: And I'm a dog person, too. I had five dogs until I got cats 15 years ago.
Dogs bark. We were just outside and all the dogs in the neighborhood are barking like crazy. I love that. I think making laws that restrict people's rights just because one neighbor is disturbed, I think that is unconstitutional. I think that is unkind. I think it's lacking compassion.
LIN: You have said -- and I'm wondering how much the health department's power, how big a power that they actually have in the situation, because you're saying, "If they come to my house and try to get in, I am going to defend it with my life."
FREEMAN: Yes, I will.
I will defend it with my life, because I think this is a liberty issue. The message here should be -- there was like five people there last night. People should get involved in what is happening locally, because this affects 21,000 people of this town. There's 4,000 families with cats in this town, if statistics follow through, and only 500 licensed -- and farms around here with 30 cats each or however many. It doesn't matter. It's none of our business. We live in the country. There's no houses close together.
LIN: So, if you feel like your cats are jeopardized, if you feel like their lives are at stake, why don't you give away some of them?
FREEMAN: Well, I have, since this has started, called every single animal group in the state that I know of. And I have tried to.
But you know what? We are talking about what I consider my children. And most people who own cats and own dogs feel that way. And how fair is that, to rip them from their homes?
COOPER: And we should point out that you say you have 12 cats now. They're all licensed. That meets the ordinance. So no one is going to be taking away any of your 12 cats. It's the stray cats which are the problem.
FREEMAN: I would like to make this statement for everyone who loves and cares for cats. There are so many. Every one of these places I called have so many cats they need to adopt out. Why worry about how many when a home has got enough means and enough love to go around for these cats?
COOPER: Are they all spayed?
FREEMAN: Of course they are. They have to be to be licensed. They have to have rabies shots.
So the issue is, they keep trying to slant the issue over into a stray issue. My problem is, now all my 12 cats are considered legally -- they made a new definition for stray, this town, last night. Legally, any cat, even if they know it's a pet, they know that it's licensed and I paid to have it licensed, it is now a stray because it won't keep a collar on. And that is a death warrant in this town.
COOPER: All right, Ms. Freeman, thanks very much. You defended your cats very well. Thanks for being with us tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: And redefined cat lover for me.
Thank you, Dian Freeman in Morris Township.
All right, we do have a statement from the Morris Township Health Department. It released a statement to us, saying: "We feel this is a fair compromise in an attempt to control the licensing of cats and protecting property rights and public health."
COOPER: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Love of cats may have helped kill the career of movie star Sean Young. Her attempt to win the role of Catwoman in "Batman Returns" was one of the most notorious in a string of incidents. She not only made her own Catwoman suit; she showed up on the lot and tried to get Director Tim Burton to meet with her.
SEAN YOUNG, ACTRESS: I want everybody not to go see the movie. And I want everyone to wait until it comes out on video.
ANNOUNCER: Young had previously lost out on a role in Burton's first "Batman" movie due to an injury. Although she began in Hollywood with notable performances in "Blade Runner" and "No Way Out," her career was torpedoed by her feud with Burton, a reputation as difficult, and perhaps most of all, actor James Woods' claim that she harassed him after an affair, a claim she denied.
So what happened to the once hot actress who couldn't catch "Batman" or a break? The answer when we return.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: What happened to actress Sean Young after her career collapsed under the weight of a series of incidents, including her failed bid to play Catwoman? She left Hollywood and spent a decade living in the Arizona desert with her husband and two kids. Two years ago, she returned to Hollywood and announced her comeback. But with roles in such flicks as "Poor White Trash" and "In the Shadow of the Cobra," it seems that maybe Hollywood didn't get the memo.
YOUNG: Does that mean I'm so scary?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LIN: A tough time to be a cat these days.
COOPER: I know.
So are you a cat person?
LIN: I am totally a cat person -- Billy Hobe Robinson (ph), 23 pounds of love.
(LAUGHTER)
LIN: You're not?
COOPER: I'm more of a dog person. Yes, I'm just more of a dog person.
LIN: Well, what I don't understand is why Dian Freeman needs 12 cats.
COOPER: I think she needs 12 cats because you're guaranteed, with 12 cats, at least one of them will be affectionate toward you at any one time. Cats are so -- they don't even pay attention to you.
LIN: That is so not fair. They totally pay attention to you. They bond with one person.
Have you ever had a cat?
COOPER: No.
LIN: Well, there you go.
COOPER: All right.
LIN: And cats usually find you, especially if they know you don't like them.
All right, well, tomorrow: Miss America, there she goes. We're going to talk to her in her final days of her reign.
COOPER: And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": the mother of Samantha Runnion on the latest hearing for Alejandro Avila, the man accused of kidnapping and killing her.
Thanks for joining us. Good night.
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Water; Washington Filled With Debate Over Iraq>
