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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Northwest Airlines Detainees Tell Their Story; Madelyne Gorman Toogood's Attorney Speaks Out

Aired September 23, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: The way they looked and the way they acted caused a midair scare. For the first time: their side of the story.

ANNOUNCER: A business trip to Las Vegas turns into a week in jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wanted to make sure that the public remained safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A flight attendant said they looked and acted suspicious. The pilot then diverted the flight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They got all the customers off the plane. And then they handled the people that were giving the problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: a CONNIE CHUNG exclusive. They'll tell their story and why a close shave got them in trouble.

She was caught on tape beating her 4-year-old daughter in a parking lot. Today, she faced the judge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, ACCUSED OF FELONY BATTERY: I know I hit Martha and I know pulled her hair. And I shouldn't have did either of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Madelyne Toogood's apology and why she says she's still a good parent.

The hottest wheels on the road may be the most dangerous in the world. That is, according to this man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH BRADSHER, AUTHOR, "HIGH AND MIGHTY": SUVs are nearly three times as likely as a car to kill the other driver in a crash.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is your SUV a hazard on the highway?

Horror inside a burning building: A woman jumps to escape the inferno. Tonight, we'll meet the professional football players who saved her life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was up there. And she was like, "I'm going to jump." And she jumped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening. Good to see you again.

Tonight: the exclusive story of what happened during a midair terrorist scare on the anniversary of September 11. Did flight attendants overreact? Two men say they were just trying to fly to Las Vegas to attend a convention. Now one of them could face a charge that could bring up to 20 years in prison. Tonight, the two men tell their side of the story for the first time. Northwest Airlines declined our request for comment.

Here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG (voice-over): September 10, 2002: Gary Wander and Harinder Singh, both of the Sikh religion arrive at La Guardia Airport, heading to Las Vegas for an Exxon convention.

Their plane lands late in Minneapolis and they miss their connecting flight. They spend the night in a hotel by the airport, taking with them the shaving kits issued by Northwest Airlines. The next day, September 11, 2002, they fly to Memphis, hoping to catch Northwest Flight 929 to Las Vegas. They make the flight, but they never land in Las Vegas.

While on board, Mr. Wander goes to the restroom. Shortly after, Mr. Singh follows him. A flight attendant gets suspicious. And the plane makes an unscheduled stop in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Police are waiting to arrest them.

CHUNG (on camera): Joining me now: Gary Wander and Harinder Singh, and their lawyers, Matthew Ketcham and Eric Breslin.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Mr. Wander, when you were on the plane, you did not take your assigned seat. Why not?

GARY WANDER, ARRESTED ON NORTHWEST AIRLINES FLIGHT: Because the last night, when we missed our first flight, we didn't have enough time to sleep and go to bed, because I went to the hotel about 2:00. And then...

CHUNG: So you took another seat because?

WANDER: Because of stretching up a little bit.

CHUNG: I see.

Now, the plane was taking off. And you asked to go to the restroom. You asked a flight attendant. But the fasten seat belt light was not off yet. When you got into the restroom, she repeatedly knocked on the door and asked you to come out. Why didn't you come out?

WANDER: Actually, I got the permission to go to the washroom, because at that time I take my blood pressure pill every morning. And she told me that I can use the washroom. I took my kit. And I...

CHUNG: You've got a little shaving kit.

WANDER: A shaving kit.

CHUNG: Which Northwest Airlines gave you.

WANDER: Yes, they gave me the last night. And I used my toothbrush and the toilet seat. And then after that, I start shaving, because I thought, "I don't have to go to washroom again and again," because this was my last destination very shortly.

CHUNG: So she kept asking you to come out. Why didn't you just stop and come out?

WANDER: No, she did not ask me to come out. Three times she knocked on the door and asked me if I was all right. And I said, "Yes, I'm all right." And fourth time, she want to see what kind of razor I'm using. I show her that. And that time, she told me that the captain wanted me back to my seat.

And then I requested -- I asked for a couple more minutes, because my shaving cream was all over and I had to wipe it up a little bit.

CHUNG: I see.

WANDER: And she said OK.

CHUNG: All right, her version of the story, of course, is that she kept asking you come out. But I understand that you feel that she simply asked you if you were OK.

WANDER: Right.

CHUNG: Now, Mr. Singh, you then got up and wanted to go to the restroom.

HARINDER SINGH, ARRESTED ON NORTHWEST AIRLINES FLIGHT: Yes.

CHUNG: You asked the flight attendant and the flight attendant?

SINGH: I did not ask her.

CHUNG: Oh.

SINGH: When I went over there, they were locking the door.

CHUNG: Locking the door of Mr. Wander's restroom.

SINGH: Yes. So I didn't know like he used that bathroom. But I was standing there. She told me to have a seat because other bathroom was occupied.

CHUNG: But were you insisting that you wanted to go into the same restroom...

SINGH: No, I didn't. No.

CHUNG: See, they claim that you were insisting that you wanted to go into the same restroom that Mr. Wander was in.

SINGH: No, I did not insist.

CHUNG: Then, because you didn't get into a restroom, you then sat down next to Mr. Wander. Why didn't you take your original seat?

SINGH: Because I have to go to the bathroom. So I got the seat near to the bathroom.

CHUNG: All right, you recognized that they thought all of this behavior was odd. They thought -- there was one flight attendant in particular who said that she had heard that a bomb could be assembled piece by piece. Obviously, she was thinking in the restroom. There's an emergency landing and you're taken into custody. You're arrested.

SINGH: Right.

CHUNG: You spent about a week in county jail. What were the conditions there?

WANDER: The conditions were like a regular jail. I don't want to say that it was bad or it was good. It was regular. Nobody bothered us.

CHUNG: Were you able to call any of your relatives or a lawyer?

WANDER: In the morning, from next day, every morning 7:00 to 7:30, they gave us time. They gave us a chance to call from the pay phone. CHUNG: I see.

Do you think you did anything wrong?

SINGH: No.

WANDER: No. We didn't do anything wrong. The only thing wrong -- if I want to consider myself -- that because of this color, we should not have been...

CHUNG: Because of your color?

WANDER: We should have not been on the plane on September 11, because people have a lot of...

CHUNG: Suspicions?

WANDER: Yes.

CHUNG: Well, actually, you made the decision not to fly on September 11th because you were concerned about it. And you actually flew on the day before.

WANDER: The day before.

SINGH: And we missed the flight in Minneapolis.

WANDER: That was the hard luck.

CHUNG: Let me just ask you straight. Have you ever been involved in any terrorist activities?

SINGH: No.

WANDER: No.

CHUNG: Have you ever met with anyone who has been involved in terrorist activities?

SINGH: No.

WANDER: No.

CHUNG: Mr. Singh, you agreed to pay a $500 fine. If you didn't do anything wrong, why did you agree to pay that fine?

SINGH: Because I want to come home as soon as possible. My kids were worried. And everybody was waiting for me. So I thought, "This is the best thing I have to do right now."

CHUNG: Mr. Ketcham, your client is facing as much as 20 years in jail, because he may be indicted. And if he is indicted, the charge would be interfering with a flight crew.

MATTHEW KETCHAM, ATTORNEY FOR WANDER: Yes, ma'am, that's correct. CHUNG: That's a hefty, hefty charge, if indeed you believe that he didn't do anything.

KETCHAM: Yes, ma'am, it is.

CHUNG: Do you believe, though, that the flight crew was justified? Here it was September 11. And the behavior was a little odd.

KETCHAM: Well, I don't know that -- I can't comment on whether or not what they did was reasonable. I think, in light of the circumstances, you have a situation that went horribly awry.

You have a multitude of factors, including their lateness arriving on the plane, the fact that they didn't sit in their assigned seats. Mr. Wander spent what was to the airline an inordinate amount of time in the bathroom. It was September 11. You had a code orange issued by the president of the United States. All these factors together made for a really, really bad situation that, unfortunately, Mr. Wander and Mr. Singh were caught up in.

Now, does that give rise to criminal culpability? I don't think so.

CHUNG: Mr. Breslin, did you recommend that your client go ahead and pay that $500 fine? Because if you believe he didn't do anything wrong and he believes he didn't do anything wrong, he's essentially saying, "Yes, I did do something wrong."

ERIC BRESLIN, ATTORNEY FOR SINGH: Well, I know he didn't do anything wrong. And, yes, absolutely, I recommended that he pay the fine.

The fine is a civil penalty. It's not a criminal penalty. And, frankly, as I think you mentioned when you were talking to Matt, he was facing the possibility of being indicted for a felony that carries a penalty of 20 years in prison. His family was completely traumatized. I was speaking to his wife two or three times a day.

His children were upset. And, frankly, the terms that were offered by the government -- which consisted of him being in a pretrial diversion program for six months and paying a $500 fine -- was the quickest way to get him out of Arkansas and home.

CHUNG: I want to ask you all to hold here for a moment, so we can bring someone else into this discussion.

Jan Ting was assistant commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service in the early '90s. And he is now a professor of law at Temple University and joins us from Philadelphia.

Thank you, Mr. Ting, for being with us. We appreciate it.

JAN TING, FORMER INS ASST. COMMISSIONER: Hi, Connie.

CHUNG: Do you think that this is a case of racial profiling? Did the flight crew just jump to conclusions?

TING: Well, I think there may be an element of racial profiling in this case and also in a similar case down in Florida.

But I think the fact of racial profiling doesn't always mean that there is something wrong. I mean, again, without reference to the facts of these cases, which I'm not intimately familiar with, racial profiling is not always wrong. There are cases when it's OK. For example...

CHUNG: What are you saying, that it's justified, what happened?

TING: For example, if you're trying to prevent the Ku Klux Klan from bombing black churches and the Klan is on a campaign of bombing black churches, it makes sense, I think, for law enforcement to be on the lookout for white guys driving around at night in the vicinity of black churches. We want law enforcement to do that. We expect them to do that. And it's OK.

The test for racial profiling and whether it's committed by the government in good faith is, first of all, is there a compelling government interest that the government is trying to defend? And, secondly, is there any other way for the government to do what it's trying to do? If there's no other way, then I think the government is justified in using racial profiling.

I think we ought to distinguish between racial profiling by the government and racial profiling by private individuals. I think it's kind of a scary prospect to see private individuals doing that sort of thing. The airlines are kind of in a middle ground, because, when they're up there in the air, there isn't any government around that they can turn to.

CHUNG: Do you think, Mr. Ting, that Mr. Wander really should be facing the possibility of a 20-year sentence? Doesn't that seem a little overboard?

TING: Yes. Absolutely. It does.

But that has nothing to do with the airline. That's just the local prosecutor and the charges that he's brought in this case. And, really, that's why we have trials.

CHUNG: Mr. Breslin, Mr. Ketcham, do you think that what Mr. Ting is saying is valid? After all, September 11, people were very concerned, and the behavior was a little different. Anyone could jump to conclusions, but rightfully so?

BRESLIN: Well, Connie, we're all aware on this couch that it's a different world today than it was a year ago and that security and security concerns really predominate travel and a lot of other areas. And I don't think any of us argue that there shouldn't be tighter security and that the government shouldn't do all that it has to do to protect everybody.

But those concerns, I think, have to be tempered with common sense and, in this case, common decency. To suggest that a jury should decide that this man should do 20 years in jail, that he should be put to the expense and stress of a trial for innocuous behavior that didn't hurt anybody, I think is really a little heartless. And I wouldn't be so quick to let the airline off the hook, because, after all, they did start the ball in motion.

CHUNG: Mr. Ting, do you think that the flight crew really went too far?

TING: Well, I think there was a misunderstanding here. There was a factual misunderstanding, as there was in the Florida case.

But I think this is probably not the last time that we're going to encounter these kinds of misunderstandings. And we'd better prepare ourselves and anticipate that these kinds of things are going to happen in the future. And that means, especially for those of us who happen to be minorities, that everyone really needs to bend over backwards to cooperate with law enforcement and to cooperate with authority figures. And when you're up in the air and there's no law enforcement around, your authority figures are the pilot and crew of that airplane.

CHUNG: Mr. Wander, what has this done to your life?

WANDER: All the news and everywhere, even in India -- people called me. My mother called me. And it was not very easy to get me on the phone, because I was on the way. And my kids were crying because of people are asking them questions in the school, you know, "son of a terrorist"?

Because people cannot understand everything right away; it takes time, like when the news media tell things -- tell the regular people what actually happened, because nine days, our story was not in front of the people. Only the airline's story they could see, because our first hearing was on Thursday, September 19, when some people got a little bit of news that what was the real story.

CHUNG: Gentlemen, thank you for being with us, including Professor Ting in Philadelphia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And a final note: Gary Wander's attorney said Wander told the flight attendant he understood why she kept knocking at the restroom door. He said he knew she was just doing her job, especially because it was September 11.

And to repeat what we said earlier, Northwest Airlines declined to comment to us. In published reports, Northwest did say that the flight crew's actions were not based on the color of the men's skin. The flight attendants said they would have done the same thing any other day, not just on the anniversary of September 11.

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Next: She's admitted to the unthinkable and says she's already paid the price.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOOGOOD: Martha was just being Martha. She was running. She was getting lost. She was opening everything in the store.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Why this mom told the judge she's not guilty.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Madelyne Gorman Toogood, the woman seen on videotape around the country striking her 4-year-old daughter Martha, had a plea of not guilty entered today. She faces the prospect not only of jail time, but of possibly losing her daughter. Martha is currently in temporary custody in a foster family home.

CNN's Gary Tuchman is on the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She was surrounded by her attorneys and family members as she walked to court: Madelyne Toogood's husband, her mother, her sisters, important people in her life, but not her little girl Martha, the 4-year-old who she beat for 25 seconds, as seen on a store surveillance video.

Martha is temporarily with a foster family, with her mother charged with child battery. Before her arraignment, we asked Toogood why she thinks it happened.

TOOGOOD: I've probably said it a million times. There is no excuse. I shouldn't have did it. There isn't a reason why. There would be nothing to provoke something like that on a child. And the only thing I can say, is apologize to my husband, my family, my child, which I've did all of that. And there's no explaining it. There's no -- there's nothing I really can say for it. There's nothing I can really say.

TUCHMAN: Inside the court: a not-guilty plea entered on her behalf and on behalf of her sister, Margaret Daley, the other adult in the video, charged with not reporting child abuse and hindering an investigation. Madelyne Toogood faces the possibility of three years in prison.

Her attorney says she admits she beat her child, but hopes her contrition can lead to a plea bargain.

STEVEN ROSEN, ATTORNEY FOR TOOGOOD: Hopefully, I'm doing the right thing for my client.

TUCHMAN: However, prosecutors say jail is a major consideration. But will they consider a plea bargain? CHRIS TOTH, PROSECUTOR: At this point, it's a pending case. And I have certain ethical obligations to not discuss what may happen with it. But I can say with no problem we're going to vigorously and aggressively prosecute this case.

TUCHMAN: The 25-year-old mother says she's sorry and ashamed, but denies the reason she looked over her shoulder before the beating was to make sure nobody was looking.

TOOGOOD: There was people right in front of the store. That's not what I was doing. I was looking at a car that was dragging something. And I only looked one way. But that's not what I was doing.

TUCHMAN: Toogood admits changing her hair color so she would not be spotted in the days before she surrendered. But she says she did it because she thought her child would be taken away from her, which indeed is what happened.

TOOGOOD: The fact that my child might wake up in the middle of the night with a bad dream and not be able to go to somebody's bed that she don't know, that's worse to me than anything else, that she can't go -- she's not going to feel comfortable to go to somebody and say: "I'm scared. I want to get in bed" or "I'm thirsty. I want a drink."

TUCHMAN (on camera): Toogood's attorney says, if a plea bargain is not worked out, they might have to plead guilty and ask for the mercy of a judge. Their third option, going to trial, is their least favorite, because Madelyne Toogood has been rather blunt about what happened in the parking lot that day.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, South Bend, Indiana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Joining me now from Chicago is Madelyne Gorman Toogood's attorney, Steven Rosen.

Mr. Rosen, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

ROSEN: Well, thank you for having me, Connie.

CHUNG: Do you feel confident that you will be able to achieve a plea bargain with the prosecutor?

ROSEN: I feel very confident that I can reach a plea bargain with a prosecutor for probation, as I have a very delightful client. She's smart. She's intelligent. And she's just a tremendous mother.

I have come to know her and her family for the past four days. And they're just a lovable family. And it was a day that, in her life, will be forgiven. And I believe, after the proper counseling, the proper parenting, the proper relationships with the counselors in the parenting class, the child protective services, that they will see that she can be a productive and loving and caring mother and that at no time could they ever believe or think that she may commit some type of act as she committed on that day.

CHUNG: Mr. Rosen, I think America would probably not agree with you. I mean, based on just that little bit of videotape, I think people all across America are probably thinking, this isn't an isolated incident, that she has probably done it before.

ROSEN: Well, they posed that question to me, Connie. And I have to tell you, what has happened to the American people? Where is our compassion? What happened to the days of forgiving and forgetting and saying: "Hey, we watched you do wrong. Educate yourself"?

We have the greatest psychologists and psychiatrists -- we see them on your program -- the greatest counselors in the country in these small communities. And they're there to help individuals like Madelyne Toogood. Why can't a prosecutor...

CHUNG: Mr. Rosen, I'm sure people who are watching are saying, he can't be -- he can't really mean what he's saying to forgive, because we're talking about a child here.

ROSEN: You're talking about a 4-year-old child. And I'm not here to defend or justify what you watch in a videotape.

I'm here to tell you there's the rest of the story. And the rest of the story is about a 25-year-old mother who has taken care of three kids for the past six years. She's done a tremendous job in raising these children. I have spent time with the 4-year-old. She's fun. She's silly. She laughs. She sings.

And, more importantly, the family unit is one of pure joy. You can see it in their eyes. You can feel it. You can touch it. It's just there. And I know and I'm confident that I can bring out to the prosecution, to the judge, who the real and true Madelyne Toogood is. And I know I will, through her help...

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: Sorry.

How is little Martha?

ROSEN: Little Martha is great.

The child protective services, Christine Beckman (ph), and their attorneys are doing a tremendous job in keeping us up to date of what she's doing. She's playing. There's three older kids in the home. She's eating well. She's laughing. But, again, she's not there with her mother and father. She's not there to cling to. The mother and father are not there to watch out for her.

And it's very devastating to the mother and father. They've been traumatized. And I was there. I was there the day they -- the night they took the child away from the father. And it hurt. It pained me, as a father of four, and beautiful children and a beautiful wife. And I was the mother and father. And I made up my mind that I will bring this -- the true colors, the spirit, the ilk of this young lady forward. And I know the American public will receive it.

And I still believe in the good. I watched it for the past three weeks. I believe in the good. And I know in my heart that, come some time October or November, she'll walk out of that courtroom with probation and the proper...

CHUNG: Mr. Rosen, one other thing. The prosecutor is making it rather clear that he believes this is not a family willing to help, because they don't -- because they were able to hold on to the child for a week. The mother did not turn herself in until about eight days later.

ROSEN: Well, I think the rest of the story for your viewers to know is that in fact they arrested her sister, who committed no crime. They held her in the county jail for three days, finally filed charges on the fourth day. Madelyne witnessed that first-hand and got scared. And she ran to mommy and daddy in Maryland.

But the fact be known, on Thursday afternoon, when the prosecutor made it known to me that they would be filing charges, I contacted her and I said: "Madelyne, you must turn yourself in. You must bring the baby. We'll have to turn her over to child protective services. And you will probably lose the child to child protective services. And the child will be placed in a foster home."

CHUNG: All right.

ROSEN: She came forward.

CHUNG: Steven Rosen, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

And we will follow the story.

Joining us now: our own attorney, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, what is the strategy here? She's pleading not guilty, but obviously she owns up to what she did.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Basically, he's trying to throw his client on the mercy of the court. But I think he's got some serious problems here.

He's talking about how what a wonderful family this is and how great everybody is, how much they love each other. Well, keep in mind, the sister, who was also in the videotape, she's arrested, too.

And what does she do, if she's so remorseful, that is Madelyne? She flees halfway across the country and changes her hairstyle so she won't get caught. Those are not what I think most prosecutors would say is evidence of remorse. It's evidence of trying to get away, until it's just -- you can't run anymore.

CHUNG: Jeffrey, what is she going to have to do to be able to get her child back? I mean, can she? TOOBIN: I think, very simply, she's going to have to show that she's a fit parent. And that's going to be awfully hard after that video.

And you don't know exactly how to phrase this, but she belongs to a group -- I think you'd call it an ethnic group -- called the Irish Travelers, also known as Irish Gypsies, also known as Tinkerers, Pavers. And they don't live with any fixed address, usually. They travel around the country. The kids often don't go to school.

So it's not like a situation where you can say to the judge: "Give us our child back. We have a home. We have a stable life environment." They don't appear to have that. And I think that could also weigh heavily in the judge's decision.

CHUNG: Do you have any explanation for the fact that the two boys -- there are two other children -- are in the father's custody, but the little girl wasn't put in the father's hands?

TOOBIN: The parents are not divorced. The parents are not separated.

You couldn't give the daughter, you couldn't give Martha back to the father and keep the mother away. The goal of the protective services at this point is to keep the mother away, because she is, at this point, not regarded as fit to see her daughter. So, because the parents are still together, you couldn't give Martha to the father without, in effect, also giving her back to her mother.

CHUNG: All right, Jeffrey, thank you so much. It's very, very sad. Appreciate it, Jeffrey Toobin.

Still ahead: She leapt from the window of a burning building. You'll meet the guys who were waiting down below.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: It seems like everyone owns one, but are they riskier to drive than we think?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRADSHER: They tend to go over the bumpers and over the doorsills in collisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The hidden danger of sport utility vehicles.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: New York attorney Joel Steinberg was not only accused of doing this to live-in lover Hedda Nussbaum; he was also charged in the death of his illegally adopted daughter Lisa. In 1987, he and Nussbaum were getting high on cocaine as Lisa lay dying on their bathroom floor. Officials found that the beatings Nussbaum suffered left her not responsible for Lisa's death. But at his televised trial, Steinberg was convicted of first-degree manslaughter, despite denying he beat Lisa.

JOEL STEINBERG, DEFENDANT: Then these bruises could have been caused in the course of transference and certainly could have been caused during the period.

I know Your Honor is laughing.

JUDGE: I'm not laughing. I'm just astonished by it.

ANNOUNCER: Steinberg was sentenced to 8.33 to 25 years in prison. But what happened to Nussbaum and to the other child they were raising? The answer when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: What happened to Hedda Nussbaum and the boy she was raising with convicted killer Joel Steinberg? The boy is back with his biological parents in New York. Nussbaum now works for a nonprofit organization that helps battered women.

To this day, tears continuously stream from her left eye due to the injuries she sustained. As for Steinberg, he has been up for parole several times and always lost. But if he maintains good behavior in prison, he'll be a free man in 2004. He still denies having beaten Lisa Steinberg.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: We will continue in a moment.

(NEWS BREAK)

CHUNG: Coming up: SUV, sport utility vehicle or a seriously unsafe varmint?

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Your apartment is on fire. There is only one way out. Would you jump? Tonight: the story of one woman who did and the football players who saved her -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: If you've spent any time in a car over the last 10 years, you've probably noticed a radical change on America's roads. A growing percentage of cars on the road technically aren't cars. They're sport utility vehicles, SUVs. What's the matter with that? Well, according to a new book, plenty, including the claim that SUVs unfairly shift the risk of car accidents to the occupants of smaller cars.

We have two guests with us tonight from very different sides of the highway. Keith Bradsher, is author of the new and controversial book, "High and Mighty." And Sam Kazman in Washington is general counsel for the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.

Let's start with you.

Give me three good reasons why you believe SUVs are dangerous -- because we own one. I think everyone out there either owns one or knows someone who has one.

BRADSHER: Well, to start with the point you just mentioned, SUVs are nearly three times as likely as a car to kill the other driver in a crash.

They tend to go over the bumpers and over the doorsills in collisions. Some of the latest SUVs have some features to reduce the likelihood of that, but they still have very tall hoods. And if you hit a car from the side and you have something coming with a 4-foot- high hood, you're more likely to hit the head of the person in the car.

Just because you have four-wheel drive doesn't mean you have any better ability to brake than the people in the cars. You may not be slipping and sliding as you accelerate on a wet, icy or otherwise slippery day, but you're no more able to stop in a vehicle with four- wheel drive than you are in a car. In fact, often the brakes in SUVs are less effective than the ones in cars.

CHUNG: All right, quickly, three.

BRADSHER: Three, the guardrails often aren't tall enough to keep the SUVs on the road when they hit them.

CHUNG: Mr. Kazman, one of the complaints that people have about SUVs, including this gentleman here, is that they do not come under federal guidelines regarding fuel economy. Why not?

SAM KAZMAN, COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, GENERAL COUNSEL: SUVs come into what's called the light truck category. And light trucks, which include pickups, vans and SUVs, are regulated by the federal fuel economy mandates, but not as stringently as passenger cars.

CHUNG: So shouldn't they be?

KAZMAN: Well, some people, like Mr. Bradsher, would probably regard that as a loophole. I regard it as a very justifiable escape hatch.

CHUNG: How could it be justifiable, sir?

KAZMAN: Because, in my view, SUVs offer millions of people characteristics that they are having more and more trouble finding in passenger cars, in large part because passenger cars have been shrunken, have been downsized because of these federal fuel economy mandates.

CHUNG: Mr. Bradsher, your critics say you that make quite valid points; however, you go overboard.

Here's one of the quotes from your book. You say: "People who have SUVs tend to be people who are insecure and vain. They're frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors or community."

Come on. This is ridiculous.

BRADSHER: The next sentence in the book is that: "Some might dismiss that as a cynic's view, but that's what the automakers' own market researchers say."

CHUNG: I know, but...

BRADSHER: That's how they describe SUV owners.

CHUNG: Through their surveys perhaps, right?

BRADSHER: Exactly. They survey huge numbers of people.

CHUNG: But that is so ridiculous, isn't it? Don't you admit that you've put something quite silly in this book? If you want to have credibility regarding your allegations against SUVs, why put something like that in there?

BRADSHER: Not in the least.

I describe -- I have lots of quotes from different auto executives and market researchers, such as Chrysler's head of market research saying that people who buy SUVs want to be able to put the kids in the back seat, roll up the smoked-glass windows and pretend they're still single and able to get a date again.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: That's ridiculous.

KAZMAN: Come on.

CHUNG: Oh, come on. I can hear Mr. Kazman saying, "Oh, come on."

BRADSHER: But it's what -- and I've got people from Ford, GM, Honda, Chrysler. There's a lot of research into what kind of activities, for example, people who buy SUVs vs. people who buy minivans engage in. People who buy SUVs are less likely to engage in volunteer activities. They put a lower premium on getting together with family.

All of these are just the correlations in the activity surveys with the vehicle models that people buy.

CHUNG: Mr. Kazman, I can hear you really grumbling.

KAZMAN: Yes.

Whenever there is a snow emergency in the city, you do not hear calls going out from hospitals for drivers of subcompacts and minicars to make their vehicles available to ferry nurses and doctors and patients to E.R. rooms. You hear calls going out four SUV owners.

CHUNG: As far as our viewers are concerned, Mr. Kazman, would you say it's OK to buy and drive an SUV?

KAZMAN: Absolutely. Small SUVs are about as crash-worthy as small cars. The largest SUVs have a better track record than any car class on the road.

Mr. Bradsher calls SUVs high and mighty in his book. It's not SUVs that are high and mighty. It's the folks who would take them away from people.

CHUNG: Mr. Bradsher, do you believe that people should buy SUVs and drive them, yes or no?

BRADSHER: Yes. People who need them should.

CHUNG: All right, thank you very much. We appreciate your being with us, Keith Bradsher and Sam Kazman.

The book is "High and Mighty."

We thank you all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: When we come back: She jumped from a burning building. They caught her with their bare hands. We'll tell you why they're being called football heroes when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: She was trapped on the fourth floor of an apartment building on fire. She opened the window and she jumped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERI MACLEOD, JUMPED FROM BURNING BUILDING: The guys were just saying, "You got to get out of there."

And I said, "I'm going to jump." And my girlfriend was behind me screaming with the cat. And they were all standing there, just looking at me, like, "Are you for real?"

And I said, "Yes, I'm going to jump."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: The guys down below, members of the Edmonton Eskimos football team, actually caught her. As you saw just now, she's fine.

And a couple of the guys who made sure she's fine, Ron Williams and Winston October, join me tonight from Edmonton, Canada.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.

RON WILLIAMS, EDMONTON ESKIMOS: Thank for having us.

WINSTON OCTOBER, EDMONTON ESKIMOS: Thank for having us.

CHUNG: Ronald, when the fire broke out in your building, you quickly evacuated. But what did you see when you got outside the building?

WILLIAMS: The first thing we ran into when we exited down the stairs, there was a dead body on the ground.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

WILLIAMS: And it was a male. And he was completely burned. And then people were just -- it was a hysterical event that had took place. And it was something that should never have happened. And, fortunately enough, we were in the right place at the right time to help somebody out.

CHUNG: All right, so, Winston, you looked up and you saw her screaming. She was hanging out the window, right?

OCTOBER: Definitely.

CHUNG: And what did you do?

OCTOBER: Well, the first thing I saw, I saw also the dead body laying outside when I came out from downstairs.

And, immediately, you start to have a little bit of fear in your heart when you hear somebody saying, "I'm going to jump also," when you already see someone laying there seriously injured. And it's just -- it's a scary sight to see somebody already ready to jump. You can only imagine how hot it was in that building.

CHUNG: Yes.

OCTOBER: So we just felt like we needed to do something in order to help her.

CHUNG: So did you talk to her? What did you say? OCTOBER: Yes, we did. We told her, "Please don't jump; please don't jump," because the way the building is, the side that she was jumping from, she didn't -- she couldn't see what happened on the other side. We were fortunate enough to come out from the other side and saw the man who had jumped out from the other side of the building. And I'm pretty sure, if she had seen what happened on the other side, she would have rethought her suggestion she was making.

So we knew that she was going to jump anyway, just like the other guy did. And we just had to do something.

CHUNG: So what did you do, Ron?

WILLIAMS: We all -- about four of us just scurried up the canopy and just formed a little circle. And she said, "I'm jumping on three." And she jumped.

And I don't if it was that much of a successful catch. She's the hero in this, because she was brave enough to jump and put her life in someone else's hands. But I just thank God we were able to help people in their time of need and just go on with your day.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

Tell me, did you lock arms, all four of you? Weren't there five of you?

WILLIAMS: There were five of us. And give credit to those guys, Sheldon Benoit -- who else was it? -- Bruce Beaton and...

OCTOBER: Rahim Abdullah.

WILLIAMS: Rahim Abdullah.

They were up there. All of us were up there helping. And when she jumped, she kind of surprised us, because we didn't get a chance to lock arms. But, fortunately enough, everybody -- there was some strong enough guys there to just brace her fall.

CHUNG: That's amazing.

Winston, did you all fall to the ground yourselves because of the power of her body just coming at you, or were you still standing?

OCTOBER: Well, I think Rahim kind of broke her fall and caught her legs, because the way she jumped, she jumped with her legs. And she was kicking when she was jumping. So Rahim kind of caught the brunt of her legs coming down. And I think that's what kind of had her lunge forward when she fell.

And Ron and Sheldon then caught her in the front, so that she wouldn't hit her head. And it was one of those things where Bruce and I were on the side. And it's one of those stories where you're like you're just happy that you were able to help somebody.

CHUNG: Absolutely. You guys really are heroes. So her name is Teri Macleod. And she must be a great fan now. And you probably got a lot of fans because of this.

Guys, congratulations. And thank you so much for being with us.

OCTOBER: Thanks for having us.

WILLIAMS: Thanks for having us.

CHUNG: OK.

When we come back: why Luciano Pavarotti has a double reason to celebrate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Remember my conversation with Luciano Pavarotti earlier this summer? We met at his villa in Italy, talked about his plans to retire in three years, his no-show at a farewell concert in New York, and his relationship with 33-year-old Nicoletta. After the 66-year- old maestro said that he and Nicoletta would be getting married later this year, I asked him about the next step.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Might you want to have some children?

LUCIANO PAVAROTTI, OPERA SINGER: Yes, I'm thinking about it.

CHUNG: How many, do you think?

PAVAROTTI: I don't know, one or two or 10. We would like to have more children.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Well, well, well, tonight, he's on his way. Nicoletta is four months pregnant with twins. Double the fun.

And that's our program for tonight.

Tomorrow: He got his 14-year-old son drunk. Should that make him a criminal?

Tomorrow morning, Paula Zahn and Bill Hemmer anchor a special edition of "AMERICAN MORNING" featuring CNN's live coverage of British Prime Minister Tony Blair's speech to the House of Commons about Iraq. That will be at 6:30 a.m. Eastern time.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Christopher Reeve talks about his progress and his hopes.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Gorman Toogood's Attorney Speaks Out>


Aired September 23, 2002 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: The way they looked and the way they acted caused a midair scare. For the first time: their side of the story.

ANNOUNCER: A business trip to Las Vegas turns into a week in jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wanted to make sure that the public remained safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A flight attendant said they looked and acted suspicious. The pilot then diverted the flight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They got all the customers off the plane. And then they handled the people that were giving the problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: a CONNIE CHUNG exclusive. They'll tell their story and why a close shave got them in trouble.

She was caught on tape beating her 4-year-old daughter in a parking lot. Today, she faced the judge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADELYNE GORMAN TOOGOOD, ACCUSED OF FELONY BATTERY: I know I hit Martha and I know pulled her hair. And I shouldn't have did either of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Madelyne Toogood's apology and why she says she's still a good parent.

The hottest wheels on the road may be the most dangerous in the world. That is, according to this man.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH BRADSHER, AUTHOR, "HIGH AND MIGHTY": SUVs are nearly three times as likely as a car to kill the other driver in a crash.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is your SUV a hazard on the highway?

Horror inside a burning building: A woman jumps to escape the inferno. Tonight, we'll meet the professional football players who saved her life.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was up there. And she was like, "I'm going to jump." And she jumped.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening. Good to see you again.

Tonight: the exclusive story of what happened during a midair terrorist scare on the anniversary of September 11. Did flight attendants overreact? Two men say they were just trying to fly to Las Vegas to attend a convention. Now one of them could face a charge that could bring up to 20 years in prison. Tonight, the two men tell their side of the story for the first time. Northwest Airlines declined our request for comment.

Here's what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG (voice-over): September 10, 2002: Gary Wander and Harinder Singh, both of the Sikh religion arrive at La Guardia Airport, heading to Las Vegas for an Exxon convention.

Their plane lands late in Minneapolis and they miss their connecting flight. They spend the night in a hotel by the airport, taking with them the shaving kits issued by Northwest Airlines. The next day, September 11, 2002, they fly to Memphis, hoping to catch Northwest Flight 929 to Las Vegas. They make the flight, but they never land in Las Vegas.

While on board, Mr. Wander goes to the restroom. Shortly after, Mr. Singh follows him. A flight attendant gets suspicious. And the plane makes an unscheduled stop in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Police are waiting to arrest them.

CHUNG (on camera): Joining me now: Gary Wander and Harinder Singh, and their lawyers, Matthew Ketcham and Eric Breslin.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. Mr. Wander, when you were on the plane, you did not take your assigned seat. Why not?

GARY WANDER, ARRESTED ON NORTHWEST AIRLINES FLIGHT: Because the last night, when we missed our first flight, we didn't have enough time to sleep and go to bed, because I went to the hotel about 2:00. And then...

CHUNG: So you took another seat because?

WANDER: Because of stretching up a little bit.

CHUNG: I see.

Now, the plane was taking off. And you asked to go to the restroom. You asked a flight attendant. But the fasten seat belt light was not off yet. When you got into the restroom, she repeatedly knocked on the door and asked you to come out. Why didn't you come out?

WANDER: Actually, I got the permission to go to the washroom, because at that time I take my blood pressure pill every morning. And she told me that I can use the washroom. I took my kit. And I...

CHUNG: You've got a little shaving kit.

WANDER: A shaving kit.

CHUNG: Which Northwest Airlines gave you.

WANDER: Yes, they gave me the last night. And I used my toothbrush and the toilet seat. And then after that, I start shaving, because I thought, "I don't have to go to washroom again and again," because this was my last destination very shortly.

CHUNG: So she kept asking you to come out. Why didn't you just stop and come out?

WANDER: No, she did not ask me to come out. Three times she knocked on the door and asked me if I was all right. And I said, "Yes, I'm all right." And fourth time, she want to see what kind of razor I'm using. I show her that. And that time, she told me that the captain wanted me back to my seat.

And then I requested -- I asked for a couple more minutes, because my shaving cream was all over and I had to wipe it up a little bit.

CHUNG: I see.

WANDER: And she said OK.

CHUNG: All right, her version of the story, of course, is that she kept asking you come out. But I understand that you feel that she simply asked you if you were OK.

WANDER: Right.

CHUNG: Now, Mr. Singh, you then got up and wanted to go to the restroom.

HARINDER SINGH, ARRESTED ON NORTHWEST AIRLINES FLIGHT: Yes.

CHUNG: You asked the flight attendant and the flight attendant?

SINGH: I did not ask her.

CHUNG: Oh.

SINGH: When I went over there, they were locking the door.

CHUNG: Locking the door of Mr. Wander's restroom.

SINGH: Yes. So I didn't know like he used that bathroom. But I was standing there. She told me to have a seat because other bathroom was occupied.

CHUNG: But were you insisting that you wanted to go into the same restroom...

SINGH: No, I didn't. No.

CHUNG: See, they claim that you were insisting that you wanted to go into the same restroom that Mr. Wander was in.

SINGH: No, I did not insist.

CHUNG: Then, because you didn't get into a restroom, you then sat down next to Mr. Wander. Why didn't you take your original seat?

SINGH: Because I have to go to the bathroom. So I got the seat near to the bathroom.

CHUNG: All right, you recognized that they thought all of this behavior was odd. They thought -- there was one flight attendant in particular who said that she had heard that a bomb could be assembled piece by piece. Obviously, she was thinking in the restroom. There's an emergency landing and you're taken into custody. You're arrested.

SINGH: Right.

CHUNG: You spent about a week in county jail. What were the conditions there?

WANDER: The conditions were like a regular jail. I don't want to say that it was bad or it was good. It was regular. Nobody bothered us.

CHUNG: Were you able to call any of your relatives or a lawyer?

WANDER: In the morning, from next day, every morning 7:00 to 7:30, they gave us time. They gave us a chance to call from the pay phone. CHUNG: I see.

Do you think you did anything wrong?

SINGH: No.

WANDER: No. We didn't do anything wrong. The only thing wrong -- if I want to consider myself -- that because of this color, we should not have been...

CHUNG: Because of your color?

WANDER: We should have not been on the plane on September 11, because people have a lot of...

CHUNG: Suspicions?

WANDER: Yes.

CHUNG: Well, actually, you made the decision not to fly on September 11th because you were concerned about it. And you actually flew on the day before.

WANDER: The day before.

SINGH: And we missed the flight in Minneapolis.

WANDER: That was the hard luck.

CHUNG: Let me just ask you straight. Have you ever been involved in any terrorist activities?

SINGH: No.

WANDER: No.

CHUNG: Have you ever met with anyone who has been involved in terrorist activities?

SINGH: No.

WANDER: No.

CHUNG: Mr. Singh, you agreed to pay a $500 fine. If you didn't do anything wrong, why did you agree to pay that fine?

SINGH: Because I want to come home as soon as possible. My kids were worried. And everybody was waiting for me. So I thought, "This is the best thing I have to do right now."

CHUNG: Mr. Ketcham, your client is facing as much as 20 years in jail, because he may be indicted. And if he is indicted, the charge would be interfering with a flight crew.

MATTHEW KETCHAM, ATTORNEY FOR WANDER: Yes, ma'am, that's correct. CHUNG: That's a hefty, hefty charge, if indeed you believe that he didn't do anything.

KETCHAM: Yes, ma'am, it is.

CHUNG: Do you believe, though, that the flight crew was justified? Here it was September 11. And the behavior was a little odd.

KETCHAM: Well, I don't know that -- I can't comment on whether or not what they did was reasonable. I think, in light of the circumstances, you have a situation that went horribly awry.

You have a multitude of factors, including their lateness arriving on the plane, the fact that they didn't sit in their assigned seats. Mr. Wander spent what was to the airline an inordinate amount of time in the bathroom. It was September 11. You had a code orange issued by the president of the United States. All these factors together made for a really, really bad situation that, unfortunately, Mr. Wander and Mr. Singh were caught up in.

Now, does that give rise to criminal culpability? I don't think so.

CHUNG: Mr. Breslin, did you recommend that your client go ahead and pay that $500 fine? Because if you believe he didn't do anything wrong and he believes he didn't do anything wrong, he's essentially saying, "Yes, I did do something wrong."

ERIC BRESLIN, ATTORNEY FOR SINGH: Well, I know he didn't do anything wrong. And, yes, absolutely, I recommended that he pay the fine.

The fine is a civil penalty. It's not a criminal penalty. And, frankly, as I think you mentioned when you were talking to Matt, he was facing the possibility of being indicted for a felony that carries a penalty of 20 years in prison. His family was completely traumatized. I was speaking to his wife two or three times a day.

His children were upset. And, frankly, the terms that were offered by the government -- which consisted of him being in a pretrial diversion program for six months and paying a $500 fine -- was the quickest way to get him out of Arkansas and home.

CHUNG: I want to ask you all to hold here for a moment, so we can bring someone else into this discussion.

Jan Ting was assistant commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service in the early '90s. And he is now a professor of law at Temple University and joins us from Philadelphia.

Thank you, Mr. Ting, for being with us. We appreciate it.

JAN TING, FORMER INS ASST. COMMISSIONER: Hi, Connie.

CHUNG: Do you think that this is a case of racial profiling? Did the flight crew just jump to conclusions?

TING: Well, I think there may be an element of racial profiling in this case and also in a similar case down in Florida.

But I think the fact of racial profiling doesn't always mean that there is something wrong. I mean, again, without reference to the facts of these cases, which I'm not intimately familiar with, racial profiling is not always wrong. There are cases when it's OK. For example...

CHUNG: What are you saying, that it's justified, what happened?

TING: For example, if you're trying to prevent the Ku Klux Klan from bombing black churches and the Klan is on a campaign of bombing black churches, it makes sense, I think, for law enforcement to be on the lookout for white guys driving around at night in the vicinity of black churches. We want law enforcement to do that. We expect them to do that. And it's OK.

The test for racial profiling and whether it's committed by the government in good faith is, first of all, is there a compelling government interest that the government is trying to defend? And, secondly, is there any other way for the government to do what it's trying to do? If there's no other way, then I think the government is justified in using racial profiling.

I think we ought to distinguish between racial profiling by the government and racial profiling by private individuals. I think it's kind of a scary prospect to see private individuals doing that sort of thing. The airlines are kind of in a middle ground, because, when they're up there in the air, there isn't any government around that they can turn to.

CHUNG: Do you think, Mr. Ting, that Mr. Wander really should be facing the possibility of a 20-year sentence? Doesn't that seem a little overboard?

TING: Yes. Absolutely. It does.

But that has nothing to do with the airline. That's just the local prosecutor and the charges that he's brought in this case. And, really, that's why we have trials.

CHUNG: Mr. Breslin, Mr. Ketcham, do you think that what Mr. Ting is saying is valid? After all, September 11, people were very concerned, and the behavior was a little different. Anyone could jump to conclusions, but rightfully so?

BRESLIN: Well, Connie, we're all aware on this couch that it's a different world today than it was a year ago and that security and security concerns really predominate travel and a lot of other areas. And I don't think any of us argue that there shouldn't be tighter security and that the government shouldn't do all that it has to do to protect everybody.

But those concerns, I think, have to be tempered with common sense and, in this case, common decency. To suggest that a jury should decide that this man should do 20 years in jail, that he should be put to the expense and stress of a trial for innocuous behavior that didn't hurt anybody, I think is really a little heartless. And I wouldn't be so quick to let the airline off the hook, because, after all, they did start the ball in motion.

CHUNG: Mr. Ting, do you think that the flight crew really went too far?

TING: Well, I think there was a misunderstanding here. There was a factual misunderstanding, as there was in the Florida case.

But I think this is probably not the last time that we're going to encounter these kinds of misunderstandings. And we'd better prepare ourselves and anticipate that these kinds of things are going to happen in the future. And that means, especially for those of us who happen to be minorities, that everyone really needs to bend over backwards to cooperate with law enforcement and to cooperate with authority figures. And when you're up in the air and there's no law enforcement around, your authority figures are the pilot and crew of that airplane.

CHUNG: Mr. Wander, what has this done to your life?

WANDER: All the news and everywhere, even in India -- people called me. My mother called me. And it was not very easy to get me on the phone, because I was on the way. And my kids were crying because of people are asking them questions in the school, you know, "son of a terrorist"?

Because people cannot understand everything right away; it takes time, like when the news media tell things -- tell the regular people what actually happened, because nine days, our story was not in front of the people. Only the airline's story they could see, because our first hearing was on Thursday, September 19, when some people got a little bit of news that what was the real story.

CHUNG: Gentlemen, thank you for being with us, including Professor Ting in Philadelphia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And a final note: Gary Wander's attorney said Wander told the flight attendant he understood why she kept knocking at the restroom door. He said he knew she was just doing her job, especially because it was September 11.

And to repeat what we said earlier, Northwest Airlines declined to comment to us. In published reports, Northwest did say that the flight crew's actions were not based on the color of the men's skin. The flight attendants said they would have done the same thing any other day, not just on the anniversary of September 11.

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Next: She's admitted to the unthinkable and says she's already paid the price.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOOGOOD: Martha was just being Martha. She was running. She was getting lost. She was opening everything in the store.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Why this mom told the judge she's not guilty.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Madelyne Gorman Toogood, the woman seen on videotape around the country striking her 4-year-old daughter Martha, had a plea of not guilty entered today. She faces the prospect not only of jail time, but of possibly losing her daughter. Martha is currently in temporary custody in a foster family home.

CNN's Gary Tuchman is on the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She was surrounded by her attorneys and family members as she walked to court: Madelyne Toogood's husband, her mother, her sisters, important people in her life, but not her little girl Martha, the 4-year-old who she beat for 25 seconds, as seen on a store surveillance video.

Martha is temporarily with a foster family, with her mother charged with child battery. Before her arraignment, we asked Toogood why she thinks it happened.

TOOGOOD: I've probably said it a million times. There is no excuse. I shouldn't have did it. There isn't a reason why. There would be nothing to provoke something like that on a child. And the only thing I can say, is apologize to my husband, my family, my child, which I've did all of that. And there's no explaining it. There's no -- there's nothing I really can say for it. There's nothing I can really say.

TUCHMAN: Inside the court: a not-guilty plea entered on her behalf and on behalf of her sister, Margaret Daley, the other adult in the video, charged with not reporting child abuse and hindering an investigation. Madelyne Toogood faces the possibility of three years in prison.

Her attorney says she admits she beat her child, but hopes her contrition can lead to a plea bargain.

STEVEN ROSEN, ATTORNEY FOR TOOGOOD: Hopefully, I'm doing the right thing for my client.

TUCHMAN: However, prosecutors say jail is a major consideration. But will they consider a plea bargain? CHRIS TOTH, PROSECUTOR: At this point, it's a pending case. And I have certain ethical obligations to not discuss what may happen with it. But I can say with no problem we're going to vigorously and aggressively prosecute this case.

TUCHMAN: The 25-year-old mother says she's sorry and ashamed, but denies the reason she looked over her shoulder before the beating was to make sure nobody was looking.

TOOGOOD: There was people right in front of the store. That's not what I was doing. I was looking at a car that was dragging something. And I only looked one way. But that's not what I was doing.

TUCHMAN: Toogood admits changing her hair color so she would not be spotted in the days before she surrendered. But she says she did it because she thought her child would be taken away from her, which indeed is what happened.

TOOGOOD: The fact that my child might wake up in the middle of the night with a bad dream and not be able to go to somebody's bed that she don't know, that's worse to me than anything else, that she can't go -- she's not going to feel comfortable to go to somebody and say: "I'm scared. I want to get in bed" or "I'm thirsty. I want a drink."

TUCHMAN (on camera): Toogood's attorney says, if a plea bargain is not worked out, they might have to plead guilty and ask for the mercy of a judge. Their third option, going to trial, is their least favorite, because Madelyne Toogood has been rather blunt about what happened in the parking lot that day.

Gary Tuchman, CNN, South Bend, Indiana.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Joining me now from Chicago is Madelyne Gorman Toogood's attorney, Steven Rosen.

Mr. Rosen, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.

ROSEN: Well, thank you for having me, Connie.

CHUNG: Do you feel confident that you will be able to achieve a plea bargain with the prosecutor?

ROSEN: I feel very confident that I can reach a plea bargain with a prosecutor for probation, as I have a very delightful client. She's smart. She's intelligent. And she's just a tremendous mother.

I have come to know her and her family for the past four days. And they're just a lovable family. And it was a day that, in her life, will be forgiven. And I believe, after the proper counseling, the proper parenting, the proper relationships with the counselors in the parenting class, the child protective services, that they will see that she can be a productive and loving and caring mother and that at no time could they ever believe or think that she may commit some type of act as she committed on that day.

CHUNG: Mr. Rosen, I think America would probably not agree with you. I mean, based on just that little bit of videotape, I think people all across America are probably thinking, this isn't an isolated incident, that she has probably done it before.

ROSEN: Well, they posed that question to me, Connie. And I have to tell you, what has happened to the American people? Where is our compassion? What happened to the days of forgiving and forgetting and saying: "Hey, we watched you do wrong. Educate yourself"?

We have the greatest psychologists and psychiatrists -- we see them on your program -- the greatest counselors in the country in these small communities. And they're there to help individuals like Madelyne Toogood. Why can't a prosecutor...

CHUNG: Mr. Rosen, I'm sure people who are watching are saying, he can't be -- he can't really mean what he's saying to forgive, because we're talking about a child here.

ROSEN: You're talking about a 4-year-old child. And I'm not here to defend or justify what you watch in a videotape.

I'm here to tell you there's the rest of the story. And the rest of the story is about a 25-year-old mother who has taken care of three kids for the past six years. She's done a tremendous job in raising these children. I have spent time with the 4-year-old. She's fun. She's silly. She laughs. She sings.

And, more importantly, the family unit is one of pure joy. You can see it in their eyes. You can feel it. You can touch it. It's just there. And I know and I'm confident that I can bring out to the prosecution, to the judge, who the real and true Madelyne Toogood is. And I know I will, through her help...

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: Sorry.

How is little Martha?

ROSEN: Little Martha is great.

The child protective services, Christine Beckman (ph), and their attorneys are doing a tremendous job in keeping us up to date of what she's doing. She's playing. There's three older kids in the home. She's eating well. She's laughing. But, again, she's not there with her mother and father. She's not there to cling to. The mother and father are not there to watch out for her.

And it's very devastating to the mother and father. They've been traumatized. And I was there. I was there the day they -- the night they took the child away from the father. And it hurt. It pained me, as a father of four, and beautiful children and a beautiful wife. And I was the mother and father. And I made up my mind that I will bring this -- the true colors, the spirit, the ilk of this young lady forward. And I know the American public will receive it.

And I still believe in the good. I watched it for the past three weeks. I believe in the good. And I know in my heart that, come some time October or November, she'll walk out of that courtroom with probation and the proper...

CHUNG: Mr. Rosen, one other thing. The prosecutor is making it rather clear that he believes this is not a family willing to help, because they don't -- because they were able to hold on to the child for a week. The mother did not turn herself in until about eight days later.

ROSEN: Well, I think the rest of the story for your viewers to know is that in fact they arrested her sister, who committed no crime. They held her in the county jail for three days, finally filed charges on the fourth day. Madelyne witnessed that first-hand and got scared. And she ran to mommy and daddy in Maryland.

But the fact be known, on Thursday afternoon, when the prosecutor made it known to me that they would be filing charges, I contacted her and I said: "Madelyne, you must turn yourself in. You must bring the baby. We'll have to turn her over to child protective services. And you will probably lose the child to child protective services. And the child will be placed in a foster home."

CHUNG: All right.

ROSEN: She came forward.

CHUNG: Steven Rosen, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.

And we will follow the story.

Joining us now: our own attorney, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, what is the strategy here? She's pleading not guilty, but obviously she owns up to what she did.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. Basically, he's trying to throw his client on the mercy of the court. But I think he's got some serious problems here.

He's talking about how what a wonderful family this is and how great everybody is, how much they love each other. Well, keep in mind, the sister, who was also in the videotape, she's arrested, too.

And what does she do, if she's so remorseful, that is Madelyne? She flees halfway across the country and changes her hairstyle so she won't get caught. Those are not what I think most prosecutors would say is evidence of remorse. It's evidence of trying to get away, until it's just -- you can't run anymore.

CHUNG: Jeffrey, what is she going to have to do to be able to get her child back? I mean, can she? TOOBIN: I think, very simply, she's going to have to show that she's a fit parent. And that's going to be awfully hard after that video.

And you don't know exactly how to phrase this, but she belongs to a group -- I think you'd call it an ethnic group -- called the Irish Travelers, also known as Irish Gypsies, also known as Tinkerers, Pavers. And they don't live with any fixed address, usually. They travel around the country. The kids often don't go to school.

So it's not like a situation where you can say to the judge: "Give us our child back. We have a home. We have a stable life environment." They don't appear to have that. And I think that could also weigh heavily in the judge's decision.

CHUNG: Do you have any explanation for the fact that the two boys -- there are two other children -- are in the father's custody, but the little girl wasn't put in the father's hands?

TOOBIN: The parents are not divorced. The parents are not separated.

You couldn't give the daughter, you couldn't give Martha back to the father and keep the mother away. The goal of the protective services at this point is to keep the mother away, because she is, at this point, not regarded as fit to see her daughter. So, because the parents are still together, you couldn't give Martha to the father without, in effect, also giving her back to her mother.

CHUNG: All right, Jeffrey, thank you so much. It's very, very sad. Appreciate it, Jeffrey Toobin.

Still ahead: She leapt from the window of a burning building. You'll meet the guys who were waiting down below.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: It seems like everyone owns one, but are they riskier to drive than we think?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRADSHER: They tend to go over the bumpers and over the doorsills in collisions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The hidden danger of sport utility vehicles.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: New York attorney Joel Steinberg was not only accused of doing this to live-in lover Hedda Nussbaum; he was also charged in the death of his illegally adopted daughter Lisa. In 1987, he and Nussbaum were getting high on cocaine as Lisa lay dying on their bathroom floor. Officials found that the beatings Nussbaum suffered left her not responsible for Lisa's death. But at his televised trial, Steinberg was convicted of first-degree manslaughter, despite denying he beat Lisa.

JOEL STEINBERG, DEFENDANT: Then these bruises could have been caused in the course of transference and certainly could have been caused during the period.

I know Your Honor is laughing.

JUDGE: I'm not laughing. I'm just astonished by it.

ANNOUNCER: Steinberg was sentenced to 8.33 to 25 years in prison. But what happened to Nussbaum and to the other child they were raising? The answer when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: What happened to Hedda Nussbaum and the boy she was raising with convicted killer Joel Steinberg? The boy is back with his biological parents in New York. Nussbaum now works for a nonprofit organization that helps battered women.

To this day, tears continuously stream from her left eye due to the injuries she sustained. As for Steinberg, he has been up for parole several times and always lost. But if he maintains good behavior in prison, he'll be a free man in 2004. He still denies having beaten Lisa Steinberg.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: We will continue in a moment.

(NEWS BREAK)

CHUNG: Coming up: SUV, sport utility vehicle or a seriously unsafe varmint?

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Your apartment is on fire. There is only one way out. Would you jump? Tonight: the story of one woman who did and the football players who saved her -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: If you've spent any time in a car over the last 10 years, you've probably noticed a radical change on America's roads. A growing percentage of cars on the road technically aren't cars. They're sport utility vehicles, SUVs. What's the matter with that? Well, according to a new book, plenty, including the claim that SUVs unfairly shift the risk of car accidents to the occupants of smaller cars.

We have two guests with us tonight from very different sides of the highway. Keith Bradsher, is author of the new and controversial book, "High and Mighty." And Sam Kazman in Washington is general counsel for the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.

Let's start with you.

Give me three good reasons why you believe SUVs are dangerous -- because we own one. I think everyone out there either owns one or knows someone who has one.

BRADSHER: Well, to start with the point you just mentioned, SUVs are nearly three times as likely as a car to kill the other driver in a crash.

They tend to go over the bumpers and over the doorsills in collisions. Some of the latest SUVs have some features to reduce the likelihood of that, but they still have very tall hoods. And if you hit a car from the side and you have something coming with a 4-foot- high hood, you're more likely to hit the head of the person in the car.

Just because you have four-wheel drive doesn't mean you have any better ability to brake than the people in the cars. You may not be slipping and sliding as you accelerate on a wet, icy or otherwise slippery day, but you're no more able to stop in a vehicle with four- wheel drive than you are in a car. In fact, often the brakes in SUVs are less effective than the ones in cars.

CHUNG: All right, quickly, three.

BRADSHER: Three, the guardrails often aren't tall enough to keep the SUVs on the road when they hit them.

CHUNG: Mr. Kazman, one of the complaints that people have about SUVs, including this gentleman here, is that they do not come under federal guidelines regarding fuel economy. Why not?

SAM KAZMAN, COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE, GENERAL COUNSEL: SUVs come into what's called the light truck category. And light trucks, which include pickups, vans and SUVs, are regulated by the federal fuel economy mandates, but not as stringently as passenger cars.

CHUNG: So shouldn't they be?

KAZMAN: Well, some people, like Mr. Bradsher, would probably regard that as a loophole. I regard it as a very justifiable escape hatch.

CHUNG: How could it be justifiable, sir?

KAZMAN: Because, in my view, SUVs offer millions of people characteristics that they are having more and more trouble finding in passenger cars, in large part because passenger cars have been shrunken, have been downsized because of these federal fuel economy mandates.

CHUNG: Mr. Bradsher, your critics say you that make quite valid points; however, you go overboard.

Here's one of the quotes from your book. You say: "People who have SUVs tend to be people who are insecure and vain. They're frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors or community."

Come on. This is ridiculous.

BRADSHER: The next sentence in the book is that: "Some might dismiss that as a cynic's view, but that's what the automakers' own market researchers say."

CHUNG: I know, but...

BRADSHER: That's how they describe SUV owners.

CHUNG: Through their surveys perhaps, right?

BRADSHER: Exactly. They survey huge numbers of people.

CHUNG: But that is so ridiculous, isn't it? Don't you admit that you've put something quite silly in this book? If you want to have credibility regarding your allegations against SUVs, why put something like that in there?

BRADSHER: Not in the least.

I describe -- I have lots of quotes from different auto executives and market researchers, such as Chrysler's head of market research saying that people who buy SUVs want to be able to put the kids in the back seat, roll up the smoked-glass windows and pretend they're still single and able to get a date again.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: That's ridiculous.

KAZMAN: Come on.

CHUNG: Oh, come on. I can hear Mr. Kazman saying, "Oh, come on."

BRADSHER: But it's what -- and I've got people from Ford, GM, Honda, Chrysler. There's a lot of research into what kind of activities, for example, people who buy SUVs vs. people who buy minivans engage in. People who buy SUVs are less likely to engage in volunteer activities. They put a lower premium on getting together with family.

All of these are just the correlations in the activity surveys with the vehicle models that people buy.

CHUNG: Mr. Kazman, I can hear you really grumbling.

KAZMAN: Yes.

Whenever there is a snow emergency in the city, you do not hear calls going out from hospitals for drivers of subcompacts and minicars to make their vehicles available to ferry nurses and doctors and patients to E.R. rooms. You hear calls going out four SUV owners.

CHUNG: As far as our viewers are concerned, Mr. Kazman, would you say it's OK to buy and drive an SUV?

KAZMAN: Absolutely. Small SUVs are about as crash-worthy as small cars. The largest SUVs have a better track record than any car class on the road.

Mr. Bradsher calls SUVs high and mighty in his book. It's not SUVs that are high and mighty. It's the folks who would take them away from people.

CHUNG: Mr. Bradsher, do you believe that people should buy SUVs and drive them, yes or no?

BRADSHER: Yes. People who need them should.

CHUNG: All right, thank you very much. We appreciate your being with us, Keith Bradsher and Sam Kazman.

The book is "High and Mighty."

We thank you all.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: When we come back: She jumped from a burning building. They caught her with their bare hands. We'll tell you why they're being called football heroes when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: She was trapped on the fourth floor of an apartment building on fire. She opened the window and she jumped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERI MACLEOD, JUMPED FROM BURNING BUILDING: The guys were just saying, "You got to get out of there."

And I said, "I'm going to jump." And my girlfriend was behind me screaming with the cat. And they were all standing there, just looking at me, like, "Are you for real?"

And I said, "Yes, I'm going to jump."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: The guys down below, members of the Edmonton Eskimos football team, actually caught her. As you saw just now, she's fine.

And a couple of the guys who made sure she's fine, Ron Williams and Winston October, join me tonight from Edmonton, Canada.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being with us.

RON WILLIAMS, EDMONTON ESKIMOS: Thank for having us.

WINSTON OCTOBER, EDMONTON ESKIMOS: Thank for having us.

CHUNG: Ronald, when the fire broke out in your building, you quickly evacuated. But what did you see when you got outside the building?

WILLIAMS: The first thing we ran into when we exited down the stairs, there was a dead body on the ground.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

WILLIAMS: And it was a male. And he was completely burned. And then people were just -- it was a hysterical event that had took place. And it was something that should never have happened. And, fortunately enough, we were in the right place at the right time to help somebody out.

CHUNG: All right, so, Winston, you looked up and you saw her screaming. She was hanging out the window, right?

OCTOBER: Definitely.

CHUNG: And what did you do?

OCTOBER: Well, the first thing I saw, I saw also the dead body laying outside when I came out from downstairs.

And, immediately, you start to have a little bit of fear in your heart when you hear somebody saying, "I'm going to jump also," when you already see someone laying there seriously injured. And it's just -- it's a scary sight to see somebody already ready to jump. You can only imagine how hot it was in that building.

CHUNG: Yes.

OCTOBER: So we just felt like we needed to do something in order to help her.

CHUNG: So did you talk to her? What did you say? OCTOBER: Yes, we did. We told her, "Please don't jump; please don't jump," because the way the building is, the side that she was jumping from, she didn't -- she couldn't see what happened on the other side. We were fortunate enough to come out from the other side and saw the man who had jumped out from the other side of the building. And I'm pretty sure, if she had seen what happened on the other side, she would have rethought her suggestion she was making.

So we knew that she was going to jump anyway, just like the other guy did. And we just had to do something.

CHUNG: So what did you do, Ron?

WILLIAMS: We all -- about four of us just scurried up the canopy and just formed a little circle. And she said, "I'm jumping on three." And she jumped.

And I don't if it was that much of a successful catch. She's the hero in this, because she was brave enough to jump and put her life in someone else's hands. But I just thank God we were able to help people in their time of need and just go on with your day.

CHUNG: Oh, my gosh.

Tell me, did you lock arms, all four of you? Weren't there five of you?

WILLIAMS: There were five of us. And give credit to those guys, Sheldon Benoit -- who else was it? -- Bruce Beaton and...

OCTOBER: Rahim Abdullah.

WILLIAMS: Rahim Abdullah.

They were up there. All of us were up there helping. And when she jumped, she kind of surprised us, because we didn't get a chance to lock arms. But, fortunately enough, everybody -- there was some strong enough guys there to just brace her fall.

CHUNG: That's amazing.

Winston, did you all fall to the ground yourselves because of the power of her body just coming at you, or were you still standing?

OCTOBER: Well, I think Rahim kind of broke her fall and caught her legs, because the way she jumped, she jumped with her legs. And she was kicking when she was jumping. So Rahim kind of caught the brunt of her legs coming down. And I think that's what kind of had her lunge forward when she fell.

And Ron and Sheldon then caught her in the front, so that she wouldn't hit her head. And it was one of those things where Bruce and I were on the side. And it's one of those stories where you're like you're just happy that you were able to help somebody.

CHUNG: Absolutely. You guys really are heroes. So her name is Teri Macleod. And she must be a great fan now. And you probably got a lot of fans because of this.

Guys, congratulations. And thank you so much for being with us.

OCTOBER: Thanks for having us.

WILLIAMS: Thanks for having us.

CHUNG: OK.

When we come back: why Luciano Pavarotti has a double reason to celebrate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Remember my conversation with Luciano Pavarotti earlier this summer? We met at his villa in Italy, talked about his plans to retire in three years, his no-show at a farewell concert in New York, and his relationship with 33-year-old Nicoletta. After the 66-year- old maestro said that he and Nicoletta would be getting married later this year, I asked him about the next step.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Might you want to have some children?

LUCIANO PAVAROTTI, OPERA SINGER: Yes, I'm thinking about it.

CHUNG: How many, do you think?

PAVAROTTI: I don't know, one or two or 10. We would like to have more children.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Well, well, well, tonight, he's on his way. Nicoletta is four months pregnant with twins. Double the fun.

And that's our program for tonight.

Tomorrow: He got his 14-year-old son drunk. Should that make him a criminal?

Tomorrow morning, Paula Zahn and Bill Hemmer anchor a special edition of "AMERICAN MORNING" featuring CNN's live coverage of British Prime Minister Tony Blair's speech to the House of Commons about Iraq. That will be at 6:30 a.m. Eastern time.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Christopher Reeve talks about his progress and his hopes.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.

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Gorman Toogood's Attorney Speaks Out>