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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Einhorn Trial Begins; U.N., Iraqi Officials Meet
Aired September 30, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I'm Anderson Cooper, in for Connie Chung.
Tonight: Ira Einhorn, the so-called New Age guru. Twenty years later, his murder trial begins.
ANNOUNCER: A former hippie guru captured in an international manhunt after 20 years on the lam now on trial for murder; a mummified body found stuffed into a trunk hidden in his apartment Tonight: After waiting decades for justice, the victim's family finally faces the man they say killed their sister.
Showdown Iraq: U.N. and Iraqi officials meet face to face to pave the way for weapons inspections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If and when the sanctions come about, we will not have clashes inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: CNN's Christiane Amanpour on if and when inspectors will go back to Baghdad.
Oregon swap: Two families with loved ones in need of kidney transplants were out of luck until they found each other. Now they have a bond for life.
A major sex scandal: The former British prime minister admits an affair with a former member of Parliament.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: Good evening.
Tonight, after 20 years and an international manhunt, Ira Einhorn so-called hippie guru of the 1970s, finally went on trial today. And his lawyer said Einhorn will take the stand and testify in his own defense against charges he killed former girlfriend Helen Holly Maddux. Among those who will be watching Einhorn's testimony most closely: Maddux's brother and three sisters. They were at the trial opening today. And you will meet them in just a moment.
But first, CNN's Jason Carroll is on the story for us in Philadelphia. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Maddux family has waited more than two decades for this day, the day Ira Einhorn, former New Age guru, former fugitive, finally stood trial for the murder of Holly Maddux.
BUFFY HALL, SISTER OF HOLLY MADDUX: This feels great, because he is sitting there and he is having to face us. And he's having to face huge blow-up pictures of the woman he beat to death. And he's having to face what he did for the first time. This is great.
CARROLL: The case began in 1977, when Maddux disappeared. She was an attractive blonde, a lover of art, and the girlfriend of Einhorn, who, at the time, was a charismatic leader in the city's counterculture movement. The couple had a tempestuous relationship. Friends said Einhorn was abusive.
But Einhorn insisted he had nothing to do with Maddux's disappearance. Police arrested him in 1979 after finding Maddux's mummified remains in a trunk in the apartment they once shared. Right before his trial, Einhorn skipped the country, saying the CIA was framing him for the murder because he had said the government had a mind-control weapon. For years, he lived under various names, moving around Europe, while Maddux's family sought his extradition.
In 1993, he was tried and convicted in absentia. Now married, he was found living in the South of France. Einhorn was extradited to the U.S. last year, the French government clearing the way after U.S. assurances he would receive a new trial. His attorney says Einhorn will testify in his own behalf. He'll tell jurors he left the country out of fear he couldn't receive a fair trial.
WILLIAM CANNON, ATTORNEY FOR IRA EINHORN: He wants to take the stand. He says he has nothing fear. He wants to tell the truth about his relationship with Holly. He wants the jury to hear, in his own words, his denial that, at any time, he abused, physically, emotionally, mentally or in any other way, Holly.
JOEL ROSEN, PROSECUTOR: I'm not surprised that he's going to testify. I expected, with his ego, that he would testify. And I'm looking forward to asking him some questions, actually.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: The prosecution's first witness today was Buffy Hall, Maddux's sister. Hall testified that Maddux told her that she had planned to leave Ira because she said she was tired of him. She was going to move out and get her own apartment -- the defense telling jurors during opening statements to keep an open mind, William Cannon telling jurors that, once Einhorn takes the stand, he'll explain why he left the country and he'll explain why he believes he was framed -- Anderson.
COOPER: Well, Jason, we saw briefly a glimpse of Ira Einhorn in the artist's rendering. How did he appear in court? From the picture, it looked like he looks like a very different Ira Einhorn than the man we've seen in the 1970s.
CARROLL: He looks very different.
But one thing that I noticed, Anderson, was that it seems as if Einhorn is actively involved in his defense. He was taking many notes during testimony today, took some notes during opening statements from the prosecutor, the assistant DA, was giving some of his opening statement.
Something else I thought that was interesting, and that is something that Buffy Hall said to me in the hallway during the proceeding today. She said the last time she saw Einhorn was in a French courtroom. And she tried to make eye contact with him. She said she did in the French courtroom. She said she had some sort of a stare-down with him, a stare-down that she says that she won. And she was looking forward to a stare-down with him in court today. She said that did not happen -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, CNN's Jason Carroll in Philadelphia tonight, thanks very much.
Joining me now: Holly Maddux's brother and sisters, Buffy, Meg, Mary and John.
Thank you all for being with us tonight. We do appreciate it. I know this has been a very long and trying day for you. Thanks for coming in.
Meg, I want to start off with you. What is it like more than 25 years after your sister was murdered sitting in that courtroom with Ira Einhorn and knowing that he's going to face a jury of his peers. How does it feel?
MEG WAKEMAN, SISTER OF HOLLY MADDUX: Well, it feels very good to see him there. It's very good to be there representing, with the rest of my family, representing our parents and Holly. It's not the least bit scary or creepy. He's a pretty pitiful character, actually.
COOPER: Why is it so important for all four of you to be there at the start of this trial?
WAKEMAN: Well, because we're the surviving members of the family. And it's also very important to know that we were -- we just represent all the movement that has come to bring all of this about.
COOPER: Buffy, Jason Carroll had mentioned that there had been a stare-down when you were in the courtroom with him in France. Did you make eye contact with him today? How did he appear to you?
HALL: Oh, he wouldn't make any eye contact with me today. He appeared at times kind of full of nervous energy, tapped his pencil a lot, jiggled around in his chair. I think he's trying to put a good face on it, that he's innocent and he's actively engrossed in defending himself.
COOPER: Now, Buffy, you were the first to testify today, as Jason mentioned. And you talked about the last time you saw your sister. Tell us about that.
HALL: Well, it was in London. I was finishing up a graduation present. I went on a tour of Europe with some other students from my high school.
COOPER: And she was there traveling with Ira on a trip?
HALL: Yes. She was there with Ira and a couple of other people in a town home owned by Joyce Pecek (ph). And I took a taxi and went to spend the day with Holly. I got special permission to do so, while everyone else went off to see a play.
COOPER: How did she appear to you? Did she say anything to you about their relationship?
HALL: Yes. She was in great spirits. She was upbeat. She was happy. She was very excited. She showed me all kinds of things she'd found in the travels, like handmade Irish lace and linens and vintage clothing and clothing from Czechoslovakia and other places.
COOPER: How did you know that their -- we've heard that their relationship was tempestuous, that he abused her. Did you see any evidence of that?
HALL: No. You have to remember that, at this time, we didn't know she was being abused. We didn't know that until after she had been murdered.
COOPER: There was a trip where Mr. Einhorn came back to your all's home in Tyler, Texas. What was that like? How did he appear to you?
John, let me ask you that.
JOHN MADDUX, BROTHER OF HOLLY MADDUX: A total slob.
COOPER: A total slob?
J. MADDUX: Yes, sir.
COOPER: Meg, how about you? How did he appear to you? What gave you that impression?
WAKEMAN: He wasn't very polite or compassionate, to put it lightly, with our mother, with our parents. He pretty much ignored me. He just paid attention to the younger sisters and to Holly and ordered Holly around. He wasn't polite at all.
And he tried to pick fights with our father, like saying, "So why did you support Vietnam? or, "Why did you do this?" or, "I don't understand why you would think something like that." Instead of having a rational conversation with anyone in the family, he would just blast us.
COOPER: Mary, is the Ira Einhorn you saw in court today any resemblance to the man you remember from back then? MARY MADDUX, SISTER OF HOLLY MADDUX: Well, I'm happy to say he's a shadow of the person that he thought he was. He's very diminished from who he presented himself to be.
COOPER: Buffy, why do you think your sister stayed with this man, who is alleged to have been abusing her?
HALL: Well, for the same reason that any other victim of domestic violence does, for whatever reason, that they feel like they cannot leave, that they cannot support themselves. Or maybe they are afraid that they'll be killed if they do leave. Or they don't feel like they have any support or any place to go, or, basically, because they are ashamed to admit that they have found themselves in this position.
COOPER: Now, Meg, when did you sense something was wrong? When did you sense that Holly was missing and you started to think the worst?
WAKEMAN: Our mom called me down at college the first week of October and asked me if I had heard from Holly, because she had missed mom's birthday. And I said no.
And mom said, "Be sure and let me know if you hear from her." And about a week or two later, she called again and said, "Are you sure you haven't heard from her?" And she wrote me a letter, "Please be sure." And for my parents to be concerned like that, I knew something was up, and definitely by Christmastime when we hadn't heard from her.
COOPER: And Holly had written you a letter saying she wanted to leave Ira.
WAKEMAN: Oh, yes. I was studying in France that summer. And she wrote me from England and said: "I'm leaving. I'm so happy with this. Can't wait to see you when I get back to the states," very upbeat and very positive that she was moving on.
COOPER: I guess it's hard to sort of phrase this question, but how has this affected your family? This has been going on for so many years. What is it like living with this on a daily basis and knowing not only that this happened, but that the man you believe killed your sister is out there, a man convicted of killing her in a trial?
WAKEMAN: Well, it's ranged from very difficult to being very aware of what goes on in the world and what goes on with a lot of human nature.
Some people are just plain mean and cruel and will be demeaning to people. And when the truth comes out, once say when Holly's body was found, immediately Ira tried to get into the victim mode, so that he could get all the attention and divert it to whatever he thought was important. And I think that has made us very keenly aware of the plight that many victims are in.
On a daily basis or on a monthly or regular basis, I think all of us feel sadness at missing Holly. But we also know that, in going on with our lives, we honor what she lived for, which was to live and to love.
COOPER: Do you worry about how this trial might proceed? Often the defense will try to put the victim on trial.
Buffy, let me ask you. Do you worry that might be part of their strategy?
HALL: I don't worry that it's part of the strategy, but I would not be surprised if it's part of the strategy. And we're all prepared for that contingency.
Unfortunately, blaming the victim is a favorite tactic of defense attorneys in all kinds of cases. Nicole Simpson was a prime example. So I'm expecting that. And I'll deal with it when the time comes. I know who Holly was. And I know what kind of person she was. And I have no problem correcting any misconceptions the defense may put out there.
COOPER: Well, just briefly, if you can, what kind of a person was she? Often, in something like this, one of the worst things is that all we know about the person is how they died, rather than how they lived. Tell us a little bit about Holly.
HALL: Well, thank you for putting it that way.
I like to think about how Holly lived. She was kind and generous with herself. She didn't mind taking her little sister, me, trick-or- treating. She didn't mind having me at her 16th birthday party with all her friends. And I don't know how many teenagers you know that would be that generous. She was loving. She was friendly. She knew people in all kinds of social groups. She was graceful and beautiful and talented and so intelligent, it was scary.
COOPER: Buffy, what's kept you going all these years?
HALL: Well, at first, it was anger. And then it was determination. The last five years, it's been knowing that I wasn't alone, because I had my three siblings, and we were working together, and that we were able to achieve so much, and we had so many people behind us giving us support and cheering us on, that that is basically what we've been riding on.
COOPER: Buffy, you talked about anger. Do you hate this man? Do you hate Ira Einhorn?
HALL: No, I've passed through the phase of hating him. I don't want to spend my life in that kind of way. I don't want to spend my emotions and my time on Earth spent hating someone. I would rather turn that anger and turn it into something good.
I think that's not very constructive to do to yourself, to hate someone. All it does is eat away at yourself. So I try to turn it the other way and do things that Holly would be proud of, live my life in a way to celebrate that he didn't beat us. COOPER: Well, I'm sure Holly would be very proud of the fact that you all are there. And then I'm sure your parents are very proud of the fact as well. We appreciate you talking with us tonight, Buffy, Meg, Mary and John. It must be very hard, but we do appreciate it.
HALL: Thank you.
M. MADDUX: Thank you very much.
WAKEMAN: Thank you very much.
COOPER: Thanks.
When we come back: the other side of the story. We'll go to the courthouse and the attorney who argued in defense of Ira Einhorn today.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: a new lease on two lives. A rare medical matchup gives two girls new kidneys from each other's family.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Ira Einhorn fled the country and spent more than 20 years avoiding trial for the murder of his former girlfriend Holly Maddux. While he was on the run, he was convicted in absentia of the murder. The victim's family doesn't buy his claim that he was framed. It is certainly going to be a tough case.
That is the case lawyer William Cannon has taken on. He is Einhorn's defense attorney. And he joins me now from the courthouse in Philadelphia.
Mr. Cannon, thanks very much being with us tonight.
CANNON: Good evening.
COOPER: You have said in the past that this is going to be a tough case. Obviously, the biggest smoking gun, if you will, is the fact that Holly Maddux was found in a trunk in your client's apartment, an apartment he'd been living in for two years, since the time she disappeared. How are you going to get around that fact?
CANNON: Circumstantial evidence doesn't come any tougher than the fact that your girlfriend's body is found in the closet within your own apartment.
But the issue isn't about whether Ira Einhorn is charged with abuse of corpse. It has to do with who killed Holly Maddux, who died, apparently, approximately 18 months before her body was discovered. We expect to poke a reasonable doubt into the commonwealth's theory that she was killed in Ira's apartment and lingered in that trunk for those 18 months.
COOPER: Well, how do you put reasonable doubt in the case? How does a man live with a corpse in a trunk by his bed for two years and not realize it?
CANNON: Well, the whole point that the defense will try to point out to the jury is that Holly's body did not decompose within that trunk.
There were forensic experts from the FBI and from another private laboratory who analyzed the trunk, a carpet upon which the trunk sat, floorboards in the closet of Ira's apartment. And they were looking for blood. They were looking for protein from human decomposition. And the shocking news that the district attorney's office received was that none of those things were found in those materials. That meant that she did not decompose in that trunk. She decomposed elsewhere and her body was placed into that trunk at a point post-decomposition.
COOPER: Nevertheless, one of the investigators who opened that trunk said you could smell death in that room. It seems incredulous to believe that a person can live with a corpse for two years and not know it.
CANNON: Well, the whole point is that Ira Einhorn says he did not live with a corpse for two years, that he had no knowledge of who put Holly's body inside of that trunk, but that that body was not in his apartment for that period of time.
There will be people who will come in and testify that they saw Holly alive and well after the period of time when the prosecution contends that Mr. Einhorn killed her. There will be testimony that, whoever killed Holly, this would have been a bloody scene. There would have been blood all over the killer. There would have been blood all over the victim. There would have been blood all over the scene. There was none of that found in the Ira Einhorn apartment.
COOPER: Now, Mr. Einhorn, back in 1977, when Holly was murdered -- I should say two years later, once he was actually arrested and went to...
CANNON: Charged.
COOPER: Charged and going to be put on trial, he basically said that the CIA -- that this was a plot by the CIA to frame him because he knew something about psychic phenomena or mind-control experiments. Is that the defense you're sticking with?
CANNON: Well, I can tell you that Mr. Einhorn's denial that he was responsible for Holly's death means that someone else was.
Now, during his testimony, Mr. Einhorn I'm sure will be asked by the prosecution who he believes is responsible for Holly's death. And the fact is that Ira Einhorn was a controversial figure in Philadelphia. He had lots of political and governmental entities.
And, in fact, a prominent witness in the prosecution's case, Dr. Thomasin (ph) from the Philadelphia crime laboratory, said that the manner in which the evidence was handled in the Ira Einhorn case was a political decision. So I think there's a lot for the jury to consume in this case. And I think the jury will ultimately conclude that not everything that meets the eye here is consistent with the evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But is this something he still is talking about, that the CIA is actively trying to frame him? Is this in his purview still?
CANNON: He believes that governmental entities were responsible for what happened to Holly. He's unable to structure any evidence to that point. He's not going to be able to identify for the jury who is responsible. But he is going to be able to raise a reasonable doubt about who killed Holly.
COOPER: The fact that he fled the country, that, in 1981, he left the United States, that he's been living on the lam, essentially, since then in Europe, would seem to be another indication that it just makes the case tougher, basically. How do you get around the fact that this guy fled the country and tried to escape?
CANNON: Well, as one of the jurors who was being examined for potential jury service said, a man flees the country who is about to go on trial for murder for one of two reasons. Either they are guilty as sin or they are plain scared.
Ira Einhorn was scared. He was scared because his then lawyer and he had been through a number of sessions trying to get the evidence from the district attorney's office to which they were entitled. They had to fight inch by inch. Vital information was being withheld from them. In fact, a cop by the name of Draper (ph), who will testify in this trial, the information about Draper was known to the district attorney's office. The statement that Draper had given saying that he had seen Holly alive and well after she allegedly was killed was held from the defense.
COOPER: All right, well, Bill Cannon is...
CANNON: This is what motivated Ira to flee the country.
COOPER: All right, well, we will be watching your defense very closely. Bill Cannon, thanks for joining us tonight.
CANNON: You're quite welcome. Thank you very much.
COOPER: And for a more intimate look at Ira Einhorn's side of the story, stick around after we're done for "LARRY KING LIVE." Larry will talk to Einhorn's wife, Annika, tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time, 6:00 Pacific.
ANNOUNCER: Next: Can face-to-face meetings finally get weapons inspectors back in Iraq?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Now to the latest on Iraq: Tomorrow, the Senate begins debating how much leeway to grant President Bush in taking on Saddam Hussein. Today, U.N. inspectors began meeting with Iraqi officials to hammer out new details for what is a very familiar scenario: U.N. inspectors crisscrossing Iraq searching for Saddam Hussein's weapons.
CNN's chief international correspondent Christian Amanpour covered the talks in Vienna today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Hans Blix said he had come to Vienna not to negotiate but to lay out the practical arrangements that are crucial for weapons inspectors to operate smoothly in Iraq.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: You'd rather go through these things outside in advance and we have even said that we will not deploy inspectors to Iraq until we have had talks about these things.
AMANPOUR: In the past, there have been standoffs and confrontations, so with the Iraqi delegation, led by General Amr al- Sadi, scientific and technical adviser to the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, the two sides hammered out arrangements on everything from hotel accommodations to access, satellite communications, and removing suspect samples.
These talks will be the first sign of Iraq's cooperation with weapons inspectors and by the end of the day, Mohamed ElBaradei head of the international nuclear watchdog, the IAEA, told reporters the Iraqi delegation was positive and businesslike and that they had come with the desire to reach an agreement.
Diplomats close to the talks say there are still issues to be resolved, such as the over flights weapons inspectors want for aerial reconnaissance of suspect sites in Iraq, also access to certain sensitive areas such as the ministries of defense and intelligence, which Iraq has restricted.
Significantly off the agenda were the eight so-called presidential sites. Since access there is governed by restrictions agreed to by the U.N. Secretary General four years ago, diplomats here say it's up to the Security Council to resolve.
An important development, the Iraqi delegation plans Tuesday to deliver what it says are all the documents about what's been happening at dual-use facilities since weapons inspectors were last there four years ago. This refers to places, material, and equipment used for civilian purposes but which can also be used for military purposes including the production of weapons of mass destruction.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Christiane joins me now from Vienna.
Christiane, how satisfied are U.N. officials tonight? If we look at today's talks as the first real test of Iraq's promise to provide unconditional access to sites, how are they doing? Are they living up to the promise?
AMANPOUR: Well, they say -- we were briefed by the senior person in charge of the nuclear watch dog committee here, the IAEA, who told us that this was a good day, that they are inching, they said, forward step by step. There are issues still to be resolved, but that overall, they felt, the Iraqi delegation had come here to go away with an agreement; in other words, that they believe that serious issues are being put on the table.
Remember, the U.N. weapons inspectors are saying they are not here to negotiate. They're here essentially to lay down and lay out what they need in order to be able to operate properly and in a hassle-free environment in Iraq. And most of the things that have been on the table so far have been agreed to. Now, significantly, the presidential sites are not even being mentioned. And it remains to be seen just how that issue will be resolved.
COOPER: Well, if U.N. officials are satisfied, I think it's probably fair to say U.S. officials probably are not all that satisfied. The U.S. has been trying to get other Security Council members to go along, passing a tougher resolution on Iraq. How are they doing in those talks? They've been talking to China, Russia and France. How are those talks going?
AMANPOUR: Well, what we are hearing is that there is quite a lot of resistance and stiffening resistance from Russia and France, the two who have voiced the most vocal opposition to any kind of new resolution that includes the use of force.
What appears to be going on, though, is that, in terms of the Iraqis and the talks here, although the talks here are technical, they are going on against that backdrop of political rhetoric, if you like, and tension in the international community. But the implications of any kind of new resolution are not being discussed here.
What we don't know is what Iraq will do if there is a new resolution. So far, they have been saying that they would not accept any new tough resolution, the likes of which the U.S. is trying to circulate. But we talked privately to a senior Iraqi diplomat in Europe, who told us that Iraq fully expects that there may eventually be a compromise between the U.S. position and the Russian and French position, a compromise for a new resolution, and that Iraq would likely accept that.
So, if that's true, that would be fairly significant.
COOPER: Christiane, in your report, you talk about these dual- use facilities that the Iraqis have handed over a large number of documentation to the U.N. about. What's the significant of the dual- use facilities? AMANPOUR: Well, dual use of the facilities, including equipment and material that are generally used for civilian purposes, but that can also easily be converted into use for military purposes. And what people worry is that they are used for the production of weapons of mass destruction.
So it's very important that Iraq be able to show that things that it is importing, for instance, are used for the civilian purposes that they claim that they are used for. But, most significantly, if the Iraqis provide what essentially amounts to four years of evidence, of documentation about what has been going on there, that will provide the weapons inspectors with what they call a baseline, a baseline from which to construct a new process and to go forward in their disarmament process.
COOPER: All right, Christiane, just a final question. This is supposed to wrap up, my understanding, by end of day tomorrow. But there's still a lot that has not been discussed: overflights, access to defense ministries, intelligence ministries, also, as you mentioned, those presidential sites, the so-called presidential palaces. Are they going to get to the things by tomorrow?
AMANPOUR: They fully expect to get to all of these things, except for the presidential sites. The presidential sites, we're told by the senior officials here, will not be on the agenda.
Why? Because those were agreed to by the secretary general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan. And the diplomats here say that it's up to the Security Council to come to a resolution on that issue. But all the other issues they expect to be on the table tomorrow. And they say that this declaration by the Iraqis of what's been going on at dual-use facilities will be significant and will amount to progress here at these talks.
And they do expect, we're being told, to wrap up tomorrow, the end of tomorrow, with an agreement all the practical arrangements needed to go back and go to work.
COOPER: Well, thanks, Christiane.
Still ahead: You've heard of curry sauce? Well, this is saucy Currie. And it is producing some major heartburn. You've been warned.
ANNOUNCER: Next: They couldn't donate organs to their own family, the story of a family-to-family kidney swap CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, imagine starving to death in the middle of a supermarket. Well, in a sense, that's what happens every year in this country to the more than 2,000 people who die of kidney failure. They die even though there are plenty of people who could safely donate their kidneys. But tonight, we found a story of hope, a story of two families. And they each thought they were going to lose a vivacious young daughter, but then these two families found each other.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Twenty-two-year-old Sara St. Pierre had been on dialysis for four years. She needed a kidney transplant. Her father, Fred St. Pierre, tried to donate his kidney. It wasn't a match.
FRED ST. PIERRE, FATHER: When I was told that I wasn't able to donate, it was a real tough day.
COOPER: In another family, 16-year-old Brittany Smith had already had one kidney transplant fail two years before. She needed another. Her 18-year-old sister, Emily, tried to donate to her, but it wasn't a match.
About six months ago, the New England Organ Bank in Boston contacted both families. They had found donor matches, although they wouldn't tell each family where the kidneys were coming from. Fred St. Pierre was a match for Brittany Smith. And Brittany's sister Emily was a match for Fred's daughter Sara. Three weeks ago, all four underwent surgery at two hospitals in Boston.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To get four operating rooms in two hospital at the same time means that we had to collaborate very closely. And a lot of people had to put in hard work to cooperate make this happen.
COOPER: Family-to-family swaps have only been done a handful of times in this country. But doctors say the prognosis for all four patients is excellent.
BRITTANY SMITH, KIDNEY RECIPIENT: It feels good to be able to do things that I couldn't do before, like go on trips or go somewhere for a couple of days and not worry about, "Oh, I have dialysis the next day."
COOPER: More than 53,000 people are awaiting a kidney transplant nationwide. Experts say they hope kidney swaps become more common, helping many more patients get a second chance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: All right, well, get your scorecards out, because joining me from Boston, we have got everyone involved in this: Fred St. Pierre, who donated his kidney -- he's on the left there -- his daughter Sara, sitting next to him. Now, she received a kidney from Emily Smith, who is in orange right there sitting next to her. And Emily's sister Brittany received a kidney that Fred donated. And Brittany is obviously a Boston Red Sox fan, I think, from the shirt.
And for the record, Kevin Bacon was not involved in this process at all.
Let's start off with you, Sara. Emily, who is sitting right next to you, gave you her kidney. And you just met on Thursday. What was that meeting like? That must have been kind of awkward.
SARA ST. PIERRE, KIDNEY RECIPIENT: It was kind of awkward, but it was kind of cool.
COOPER: What did you say to her?
S. ST. PIERRE: I don't even remember the first thing I said to her. I hugged her.
COOPER: And, Emily, what did you say?
EMILY SMITH, KIDNEY DONOR: "Hi," I think.
B. SMITH: You gave her roses.
E. SMITH: Yes, I gave her blue roses.
COOPER: Now, Fred, you had met Brittany in the hospital. What was that meeting like?
In the hospital was -- I was still hurting a little bit myself. And I walked down to see her in her room. And she was pretty tired at the time, but definitely very appreciative. And it was nice to see her gaining, as the nurses made me very aware that she'd come a long ways and was looking better. So it was nice to see her getting better.
COOPER: Brittany, do you remember Fred coming in to see you?
B. SMITH: Yes. Yes, I do. It was nice. And I was glad he came. That way, I could actually put a face to the body part.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: And, Sara, for a lot of people who have no idea what it's like, being on dialysis for four years, I think you go three times a week. What is it like? Describe it, if you can.
S. ST. PIERRE: It makes you tired, very tired. And I would feel just wiped out a lot. I couldn't do a whole lot after, physically- wise. I'd have to just go home and go to bed and start the rest of the afternoon.
COOPER: Now, Fred, you had wanted to donate a kidney to your daughter. You had tried to do that. But you learned that you couldn't. That must have been very difficult to hear.
F. ST. PIERRE: Yes. Both the wife and I had been tested or checked out for donating early in the process. And the blood types didn't match, so that we went quite a long time waiting on the list.
COOPER: And, Emily, you wanted to donate your kidney to your sister, Brittany, who had already received a kidney several years ago. But that failed about two years ago. You wanted to donate your kidney, but you couldn't do that either, right? But you still went ahead? E. SMITH: Yes. I still wanted to be tested, but I wasn't sure. And then when they said I didn't match, I was kind of upset, because I didn't know what else was going to happen, what else they could do to help her.
COOPER: But you were still willing to donate your kidney to someone you didn't know?
E. SMITH: Yes, because, in a way, it was still helping her as well as another person, who turned out to be a really cool girl.
S. ST. PIERRE: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Now, when you were -- each of you, when you were told that there was a match out there, did they tell you who it was? Did they tell you that this was going to be a cross-family swap?
B. SMITH: Yes, but we didn't get to meet the people, because they said most families don't really like to meet. So they had to get permission from them and then from us, knowing that we want to meet each other.
S. ST. PIERRE: We got just names, first names, and some other information, not very much.
E. SMITH: We didn't really know a lot about who they were, so that's what made it a little bit scary.
COOPER: Now, what also makes it pretty scary is that this a very complicated operation. It involved four different operating rooms, two different hospitals. It's a lot of coordination. It's a very difficult thing. It's only been done a handful of times in the United States.
Was there a time -- Sara, let's start with you. Was there a time you thought this might not work?
S. ST. PIERRE: Yes, several times, actually. But it did. So that's what's important.
COOPER: You've been dealing with this for a long time now. You, in a sense, have been given a new life. You have your life back.
What do you want to do? Is there something you haven't been able to do that you are kind of looking forward to doing now?
S. ST. PIERRE: Traveling is a big one, that I have been stuck at home to do the dialysis and stuff. But, other than that, I don't really have any big plans.
COOPER: And, Brittany, how about you?
B. SMITH: I want to be able to run hurdles again. And I want to get back to working at the Greenville Zoo and just start working harder and getting my life put back together.
COOPER: Sara, I understand, as we said in the report before, there are 53,000 people still waiting on lists, waiting for transplants for kidneys. I understand that, before you left the hospital, you went back to your old dialysis unit to say goodbye. Your mom told us this. Why did you want to do that? And what was that like, seeing people who are still on the list, still waiting?
S. ST. PIERRE: Well, most of the people that I went to see, the nurses and stuff, they had been a part of my life for four years. And I wanted them to know that I was doing good and to see me, especially before I appeared on TV, so they knew that I was healthy and feeling good, and just to show all the patients that there is hope and that they can feel good some day, too.
B. SMITH: And, also, if your doctor does give you the option of doing it, I would take that chance. And it should work out. There was no complication with ours. And if you get the chance -- or even ask your doctor about it.
E. SMITH: It's definitely worth it. Whether you help one person or more than one, it is still helping. And it could save that person's life. It's still worth it.
S. ST. PIERRE: There's lots of medicine and lots of side effects to go with those medicines. But they're worth it, too.
COOPER: All right, well, Fred, Sara, Emily, Brittany, thank you very much for being with us. It's nice see you all here happy and healthy.
S. ST. PIERRE: Thanks.
E. SMITH: Thank you.
B. SMITH: Thanks.
ANNOUNCER: Next: a parliamentary affair. This former British Cabinet member reveals how she seduced the soon-to-be prime minister, John Major -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Life for Sean Elliott was about as good as it gets. He was a top young player on a hot pro basketball team, the San Antonio Spurs. Then he got the news that would change his life.
SEAN ELLIOTT, SAN ANTONIO SPURS: When I was first diagnosed with kidney disease, I was fearful. I didn't know what laid ahead of me. But after I reviewed my options and I educated myself, I knew that I could prolong my career. I could continue to play.
ANNOUNCER: He not only continued to play. He managed to raise his scoring average even after his diagnosis. In 1999, his stunning off-balance 3-pointer helped put the Spurs in the NBA championship. The celebration had barely ended when doctors told Elliott he'd need a new kidney.
What happened to Elliott after that? The answer when we return.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: What happened to Sean Elliott of the San Antonio Spurs after doctors told him he needed a new kidney. His brother donated one. And Elliott went on to make history as the first pro athlete to return to the game after a major transplant.
Elliott was not able to stay in the game for long, though. He's gone on to become an advocate for those with kidney disease, a commentator for ESPN, and a role model of sorts for the Miami Heat's Alonzo Mourning, who recently announced he'll be sitting out this season due to kidney disease.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: OK, so when you think of Britain, what comes to mind? Cricket, stiff upper lips, good blood pudding, perhaps? Sure. But when you think of British politics, it's nothing as exciting as all that. Britain's leaders are often portrayed as upright, civil, some might even say dull. They even used to call former Prime Minister John Major the gray man of Westminster. Well, after what we learned this weekend, they aren't calling him that anymore.
Reporting for CNN, Robin Curnow lays it all out for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN MAJOR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It is time to return to those old core values, time to get back to basics.
ROBIN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The government's policy based on personal morality, championed by then conservative Prime Minister John Major, an uncolorful English gentlemen and an unlikely candidate for Bill Clintonesque peccadillos. And he was tough on those who didn't practice so-called family values.
A legion of Tory members were sacked or resigned after a bought of sex-and-sleaze scandals during Major's government. Now this woman, Edwina Currie, a former minister in Margaret Thatcher's government, is spilling the beans on a four-year affair with Mr. Major.
CHARLIE WHELMAN, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY: John Major is not going to go down in history as a great leader of the Tory Party. Many people think he was very weak. But what it does now, it shows the hypocrisy, really, of the Tory Party in talking about back to basics and moral issues. At the same time, here's a man who had an affair with Edwina Currie. CURNOW: Although their affair took place before he was made prime minister, Edwina Currie's revelations have made many wondering what might have been if she had aired her dirty laundry sooner.
MICHAEL BROWN, FORMER CONSERVATIVE M.P.: If she had spoken up before 1990, I think the course of events might have been very, very different. There might never have been a John Major premiership.
CURNOW: But, as history had it, John Major was prime minister for seven years at 10 Downing Street, a position that the queen usually rewards with a knighthood.
HUGO VICKERS, AUTHOR, "ROYAL ORDERS": Well, most prime ministers, in due course, do receive the Order of the Garter. But I would imagine that he was very unlikely to appear in the next list -- there are four vacancies at the moment -- because the press would have a field day with all the various implications that are given to new knights of the Garter, insomuch as that they must be knights beyond approach and bear faith and truth and things like that.
CURNOW: John Major's reported sexual shenanigans are garnering wide smiles and eliciting telling jibes bemused Britons.
GORDON BROWN, CHANCELLOR: As for the Tories, what have they been up to?
(LAUGHTER)
G. BROWN: What have they been spending their time doing?
CURNOW: The question now, is what is Mr. Major going to do next? John Major's image as the gray man of British politics has been severely shattered. His former mistress' diaries are being serialized in "The Times" newspaper. And a book launch is on Wednesday. More solicitous tidbits are expected. And the British public is lapping it up.
Robin CURNOW, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, no doubt, a TV movie will soon appear.
Joining us now: a Brit who has followed John Major's career and interviewed him numerous times: Justin Webb, Washington correspondent for BBC News.
Justin, thanks very much for being with us.
You have met Mr. Major. You have interviewed him a number of times. Did you have any idea that this was going on?
JUSTIN WEBB, BBC WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I knew about it all along.
(LAUGHTER) WEBB: No, I'm kidding. Of course I didn't. No one did. This is seismic. This is the kind of thing that people just could not, in their wildest dreams or imagination, the kind of things they would not have dreamt about.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Because his image was so different than this?
WEBB: Yes, because his image was the complete 180-degrees opposite of this -- not that he was particularly someone who constantly went on about decent family values -- that became something that he had -- but that he was dull, frankly. He just wasn't the kind of guy who did this sort of thing.
The two things that he liked most of all were cricket, as you mentioned in your introduction -- an interminable British game that goes on for four or five days and nobody wins -- and the other thing is warm beer. And warm beer just ain't sexy. So, yes, it's a complete and utter surprise.
COOPER: Well, the human heart is a strange little muscle, I always say.
What happens now to John Major, his legacy? Does this -- as you said, it's so at odds with not only what his public persona was, but also his public policies, his whole back-to-basics campaign. Does this destroy any legacy he might have had?
WEBB: No, it doesn't, because, frankly, the legacy had already pretty much been destroyed. He wasn't a terribly successful prime minister. He did well to become reelected or become elected on his own right, because he sort of inherited the job from Lady Thatcher.
But then he actually won an election. Then, frankly, they didn't do terribly well. The party fell apart. There was internecine warfare. They messed up the economy. So it's not going to go down in history as a huge success. And now I guess he'll go down in history, frankly, as a bit of a hypocrite as well, which is a pity for him. And he is a man who, most people who have met him -- and I met him quite a few times -- genuinely liked.
He is, for a senior politician, extraordinarily easy to get on with and extraordinarily charming. And, do you know, if some of us had met him and wondered a bit more, maybe we would have guessed, because, at the end of the day, doesn't this prove what women want in a man? And that is, it doesn't matter too much about looks. You've just been looking at him there. But you want is charm and you want a warm sense of humor and making you feel wanted. And he was certainly good at those. He was good at those as a politician and obviously good as those as a lover as well.
COOPER: Well, now he has come forward and admitted this occurred. And he also has basically said it was sort of a dark chapter in his life, something he's ashamed of, which has actually upset Ms. Currie. She's now come forward angry that he's basically blown her off.
WEBB: Yes.
I think it's very telling that the thing that she says really upset her and made her decide that she would publish these diaries and she would reveal everything was the fact that, when John Major wrote his autobiography -- which he did two or three years ago -- she wasn't even in the index.
She obviously went to a book shop, rifled through, found she wasn't there, and thought: "Right, that's it. I'm going to go for him." And that I think gives you some sort of indication of how he feels now. And he's issued a statement saying he regrets it deeply. And she is obviously -- she wants something more than that. She wants something back from him. And she's not going to get it.
So she's going to remain pretty angry and a figure for him and indeed for the party, frankly, for some time to come.
COOPER: Only about 30 seconds. Does anyone come out of this unscathed? Or does she come off looking good? Clearly, you've said he doesn't come off looking good.
WEBB: No, she doesn't come off looking very good. He doesn't come off looking very good. His party doesn't come off looking very good. British politics perhaps comes off looking a little bit better, a little bit more interesting to people like you.
The fact that I'm here talking to you and there are people in America looking at it, you're not, I guess, particularly interested in John Major. I take it you haven't read his autobiography. Well, now he's a figure who's going to be known around the world. And that wasn't the case before.
COOPER: All right, I'll check out the autobiography.
Justin Webb, thanks very much.
We'll be right back with a word about tomorrow's program.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, tomorrow: another set of conjoined twins, but a much more difficult operation than the Guatemalan twins had. We're going to talk to the doctor who is going to try to separate the new twins.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Ira Einhorn's wife. She admits to harboring him for years after his murder conviction. You won't want to miss it.
Thank you for joining us. Good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired September 30, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, GUEST HOST: Good evening. I'm Anderson Cooper, in for Connie Chung.
Tonight: Ira Einhorn, the so-called New Age guru. Twenty years later, his murder trial begins.
ANNOUNCER: A former hippie guru captured in an international manhunt after 20 years on the lam now on trial for murder; a mummified body found stuffed into a trunk hidden in his apartment Tonight: After waiting decades for justice, the victim's family finally faces the man they say killed their sister.
Showdown Iraq: U.N. and Iraqi officials meet face to face to pave the way for weapons inspections.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If and when the sanctions come about, we will not have clashes inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: CNN's Christiane Amanpour on if and when inspectors will go back to Baghdad.
Oregon swap: Two families with loved ones in need of kidney transplants were out of luck until they found each other. Now they have a bond for life.
A major sex scandal: The former British prime minister admits an affair with a former member of Parliament.
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: Good evening.
Tonight, after 20 years and an international manhunt, Ira Einhorn so-called hippie guru of the 1970s, finally went on trial today. And his lawyer said Einhorn will take the stand and testify in his own defense against charges he killed former girlfriend Helen Holly Maddux. Among those who will be watching Einhorn's testimony most closely: Maddux's brother and three sisters. They were at the trial opening today. And you will meet them in just a moment.
But first, CNN's Jason Carroll is on the story for us in Philadelphia. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Maddux family has waited more than two decades for this day, the day Ira Einhorn, former New Age guru, former fugitive, finally stood trial for the murder of Holly Maddux.
BUFFY HALL, SISTER OF HOLLY MADDUX: This feels great, because he is sitting there and he is having to face us. And he's having to face huge blow-up pictures of the woman he beat to death. And he's having to face what he did for the first time. This is great.
CARROLL: The case began in 1977, when Maddux disappeared. She was an attractive blonde, a lover of art, and the girlfriend of Einhorn, who, at the time, was a charismatic leader in the city's counterculture movement. The couple had a tempestuous relationship. Friends said Einhorn was abusive.
But Einhorn insisted he had nothing to do with Maddux's disappearance. Police arrested him in 1979 after finding Maddux's mummified remains in a trunk in the apartment they once shared. Right before his trial, Einhorn skipped the country, saying the CIA was framing him for the murder because he had said the government had a mind-control weapon. For years, he lived under various names, moving around Europe, while Maddux's family sought his extradition.
In 1993, he was tried and convicted in absentia. Now married, he was found living in the South of France. Einhorn was extradited to the U.S. last year, the French government clearing the way after U.S. assurances he would receive a new trial. His attorney says Einhorn will testify in his own behalf. He'll tell jurors he left the country out of fear he couldn't receive a fair trial.
WILLIAM CANNON, ATTORNEY FOR IRA EINHORN: He wants to take the stand. He says he has nothing fear. He wants to tell the truth about his relationship with Holly. He wants the jury to hear, in his own words, his denial that, at any time, he abused, physically, emotionally, mentally or in any other way, Holly.
JOEL ROSEN, PROSECUTOR: I'm not surprised that he's going to testify. I expected, with his ego, that he would testify. And I'm looking forward to asking him some questions, actually.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: The prosecution's first witness today was Buffy Hall, Maddux's sister. Hall testified that Maddux told her that she had planned to leave Ira because she said she was tired of him. She was going to move out and get her own apartment -- the defense telling jurors during opening statements to keep an open mind, William Cannon telling jurors that, once Einhorn takes the stand, he'll explain why he left the country and he'll explain why he believes he was framed -- Anderson.
COOPER: Well, Jason, we saw briefly a glimpse of Ira Einhorn in the artist's rendering. How did he appear in court? From the picture, it looked like he looks like a very different Ira Einhorn than the man we've seen in the 1970s.
CARROLL: He looks very different.
But one thing that I noticed, Anderson, was that it seems as if Einhorn is actively involved in his defense. He was taking many notes during testimony today, took some notes during opening statements from the prosecutor, the assistant DA, was giving some of his opening statement.
Something else I thought that was interesting, and that is something that Buffy Hall said to me in the hallway during the proceeding today. She said the last time she saw Einhorn was in a French courtroom. And she tried to make eye contact with him. She said she did in the French courtroom. She said she had some sort of a stare-down with him, a stare-down that she says that she won. And she was looking forward to a stare-down with him in court today. She said that did not happen -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, CNN's Jason Carroll in Philadelphia tonight, thanks very much.
Joining me now: Holly Maddux's brother and sisters, Buffy, Meg, Mary and John.
Thank you all for being with us tonight. We do appreciate it. I know this has been a very long and trying day for you. Thanks for coming in.
Meg, I want to start off with you. What is it like more than 25 years after your sister was murdered sitting in that courtroom with Ira Einhorn and knowing that he's going to face a jury of his peers. How does it feel?
MEG WAKEMAN, SISTER OF HOLLY MADDUX: Well, it feels very good to see him there. It's very good to be there representing, with the rest of my family, representing our parents and Holly. It's not the least bit scary or creepy. He's a pretty pitiful character, actually.
COOPER: Why is it so important for all four of you to be there at the start of this trial?
WAKEMAN: Well, because we're the surviving members of the family. And it's also very important to know that we were -- we just represent all the movement that has come to bring all of this about.
COOPER: Buffy, Jason Carroll had mentioned that there had been a stare-down when you were in the courtroom with him in France. Did you make eye contact with him today? How did he appear to you?
HALL: Oh, he wouldn't make any eye contact with me today. He appeared at times kind of full of nervous energy, tapped his pencil a lot, jiggled around in his chair. I think he's trying to put a good face on it, that he's innocent and he's actively engrossed in defending himself.
COOPER: Now, Buffy, you were the first to testify today, as Jason mentioned. And you talked about the last time you saw your sister. Tell us about that.
HALL: Well, it was in London. I was finishing up a graduation present. I went on a tour of Europe with some other students from my high school.
COOPER: And she was there traveling with Ira on a trip?
HALL: Yes. She was there with Ira and a couple of other people in a town home owned by Joyce Pecek (ph). And I took a taxi and went to spend the day with Holly. I got special permission to do so, while everyone else went off to see a play.
COOPER: How did she appear to you? Did she say anything to you about their relationship?
HALL: Yes. She was in great spirits. She was upbeat. She was happy. She was very excited. She showed me all kinds of things she'd found in the travels, like handmade Irish lace and linens and vintage clothing and clothing from Czechoslovakia and other places.
COOPER: How did you know that their -- we've heard that their relationship was tempestuous, that he abused her. Did you see any evidence of that?
HALL: No. You have to remember that, at this time, we didn't know she was being abused. We didn't know that until after she had been murdered.
COOPER: There was a trip where Mr. Einhorn came back to your all's home in Tyler, Texas. What was that like? How did he appear to you?
John, let me ask you that.
JOHN MADDUX, BROTHER OF HOLLY MADDUX: A total slob.
COOPER: A total slob?
J. MADDUX: Yes, sir.
COOPER: Meg, how about you? How did he appear to you? What gave you that impression?
WAKEMAN: He wasn't very polite or compassionate, to put it lightly, with our mother, with our parents. He pretty much ignored me. He just paid attention to the younger sisters and to Holly and ordered Holly around. He wasn't polite at all.
And he tried to pick fights with our father, like saying, "So why did you support Vietnam? or, "Why did you do this?" or, "I don't understand why you would think something like that." Instead of having a rational conversation with anyone in the family, he would just blast us.
COOPER: Mary, is the Ira Einhorn you saw in court today any resemblance to the man you remember from back then? MARY MADDUX, SISTER OF HOLLY MADDUX: Well, I'm happy to say he's a shadow of the person that he thought he was. He's very diminished from who he presented himself to be.
COOPER: Buffy, why do you think your sister stayed with this man, who is alleged to have been abusing her?
HALL: Well, for the same reason that any other victim of domestic violence does, for whatever reason, that they feel like they cannot leave, that they cannot support themselves. Or maybe they are afraid that they'll be killed if they do leave. Or they don't feel like they have any support or any place to go, or, basically, because they are ashamed to admit that they have found themselves in this position.
COOPER: Now, Meg, when did you sense something was wrong? When did you sense that Holly was missing and you started to think the worst?
WAKEMAN: Our mom called me down at college the first week of October and asked me if I had heard from Holly, because she had missed mom's birthday. And I said no.
And mom said, "Be sure and let me know if you hear from her." And about a week or two later, she called again and said, "Are you sure you haven't heard from her?" And she wrote me a letter, "Please be sure." And for my parents to be concerned like that, I knew something was up, and definitely by Christmastime when we hadn't heard from her.
COOPER: And Holly had written you a letter saying she wanted to leave Ira.
WAKEMAN: Oh, yes. I was studying in France that summer. And she wrote me from England and said: "I'm leaving. I'm so happy with this. Can't wait to see you when I get back to the states," very upbeat and very positive that she was moving on.
COOPER: I guess it's hard to sort of phrase this question, but how has this affected your family? This has been going on for so many years. What is it like living with this on a daily basis and knowing not only that this happened, but that the man you believe killed your sister is out there, a man convicted of killing her in a trial?
WAKEMAN: Well, it's ranged from very difficult to being very aware of what goes on in the world and what goes on with a lot of human nature.
Some people are just plain mean and cruel and will be demeaning to people. And when the truth comes out, once say when Holly's body was found, immediately Ira tried to get into the victim mode, so that he could get all the attention and divert it to whatever he thought was important. And I think that has made us very keenly aware of the plight that many victims are in.
On a daily basis or on a monthly or regular basis, I think all of us feel sadness at missing Holly. But we also know that, in going on with our lives, we honor what she lived for, which was to live and to love.
COOPER: Do you worry about how this trial might proceed? Often the defense will try to put the victim on trial.
Buffy, let me ask you. Do you worry that might be part of their strategy?
HALL: I don't worry that it's part of the strategy, but I would not be surprised if it's part of the strategy. And we're all prepared for that contingency.
Unfortunately, blaming the victim is a favorite tactic of defense attorneys in all kinds of cases. Nicole Simpson was a prime example. So I'm expecting that. And I'll deal with it when the time comes. I know who Holly was. And I know what kind of person she was. And I have no problem correcting any misconceptions the defense may put out there.
COOPER: Well, just briefly, if you can, what kind of a person was she? Often, in something like this, one of the worst things is that all we know about the person is how they died, rather than how they lived. Tell us a little bit about Holly.
HALL: Well, thank you for putting it that way.
I like to think about how Holly lived. She was kind and generous with herself. She didn't mind taking her little sister, me, trick-or- treating. She didn't mind having me at her 16th birthday party with all her friends. And I don't know how many teenagers you know that would be that generous. She was loving. She was friendly. She knew people in all kinds of social groups. She was graceful and beautiful and talented and so intelligent, it was scary.
COOPER: Buffy, what's kept you going all these years?
HALL: Well, at first, it was anger. And then it was determination. The last five years, it's been knowing that I wasn't alone, because I had my three siblings, and we were working together, and that we were able to achieve so much, and we had so many people behind us giving us support and cheering us on, that that is basically what we've been riding on.
COOPER: Buffy, you talked about anger. Do you hate this man? Do you hate Ira Einhorn?
HALL: No, I've passed through the phase of hating him. I don't want to spend my life in that kind of way. I don't want to spend my emotions and my time on Earth spent hating someone. I would rather turn that anger and turn it into something good.
I think that's not very constructive to do to yourself, to hate someone. All it does is eat away at yourself. So I try to turn it the other way and do things that Holly would be proud of, live my life in a way to celebrate that he didn't beat us. COOPER: Well, I'm sure Holly would be very proud of the fact that you all are there. And then I'm sure your parents are very proud of the fact as well. We appreciate you talking with us tonight, Buffy, Meg, Mary and John. It must be very hard, but we do appreciate it.
HALL: Thank you.
M. MADDUX: Thank you very much.
WAKEMAN: Thank you very much.
COOPER: Thanks.
When we come back: the other side of the story. We'll go to the courthouse and the attorney who argued in defense of Ira Einhorn today.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: a new lease on two lives. A rare medical matchup gives two girls new kidneys from each other's family.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Ira Einhorn fled the country and spent more than 20 years avoiding trial for the murder of his former girlfriend Holly Maddux. While he was on the run, he was convicted in absentia of the murder. The victim's family doesn't buy his claim that he was framed. It is certainly going to be a tough case.
That is the case lawyer William Cannon has taken on. He is Einhorn's defense attorney. And he joins me now from the courthouse in Philadelphia.
Mr. Cannon, thanks very much being with us tonight.
CANNON: Good evening.
COOPER: You have said in the past that this is going to be a tough case. Obviously, the biggest smoking gun, if you will, is the fact that Holly Maddux was found in a trunk in your client's apartment, an apartment he'd been living in for two years, since the time she disappeared. How are you going to get around that fact?
CANNON: Circumstantial evidence doesn't come any tougher than the fact that your girlfriend's body is found in the closet within your own apartment.
But the issue isn't about whether Ira Einhorn is charged with abuse of corpse. It has to do with who killed Holly Maddux, who died, apparently, approximately 18 months before her body was discovered. We expect to poke a reasonable doubt into the commonwealth's theory that she was killed in Ira's apartment and lingered in that trunk for those 18 months.
COOPER: Well, how do you put reasonable doubt in the case? How does a man live with a corpse in a trunk by his bed for two years and not realize it?
CANNON: Well, the whole point that the defense will try to point out to the jury is that Holly's body did not decompose within that trunk.
There were forensic experts from the FBI and from another private laboratory who analyzed the trunk, a carpet upon which the trunk sat, floorboards in the closet of Ira's apartment. And they were looking for blood. They were looking for protein from human decomposition. And the shocking news that the district attorney's office received was that none of those things were found in those materials. That meant that she did not decompose in that trunk. She decomposed elsewhere and her body was placed into that trunk at a point post-decomposition.
COOPER: Nevertheless, one of the investigators who opened that trunk said you could smell death in that room. It seems incredulous to believe that a person can live with a corpse for two years and not know it.
CANNON: Well, the whole point is that Ira Einhorn says he did not live with a corpse for two years, that he had no knowledge of who put Holly's body inside of that trunk, but that that body was not in his apartment for that period of time.
There will be people who will come in and testify that they saw Holly alive and well after the period of time when the prosecution contends that Mr. Einhorn killed her. There will be testimony that, whoever killed Holly, this would have been a bloody scene. There would have been blood all over the killer. There would have been blood all over the victim. There would have been blood all over the scene. There was none of that found in the Ira Einhorn apartment.
COOPER: Now, Mr. Einhorn, back in 1977, when Holly was murdered -- I should say two years later, once he was actually arrested and went to...
CANNON: Charged.
COOPER: Charged and going to be put on trial, he basically said that the CIA -- that this was a plot by the CIA to frame him because he knew something about psychic phenomena or mind-control experiments. Is that the defense you're sticking with?
CANNON: Well, I can tell you that Mr. Einhorn's denial that he was responsible for Holly's death means that someone else was.
Now, during his testimony, Mr. Einhorn I'm sure will be asked by the prosecution who he believes is responsible for Holly's death. And the fact is that Ira Einhorn was a controversial figure in Philadelphia. He had lots of political and governmental entities.
And, in fact, a prominent witness in the prosecution's case, Dr. Thomasin (ph) from the Philadelphia crime laboratory, said that the manner in which the evidence was handled in the Ira Einhorn case was a political decision. So I think there's a lot for the jury to consume in this case. And I think the jury will ultimately conclude that not everything that meets the eye here is consistent with the evidence.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: But is this something he still is talking about, that the CIA is actively trying to frame him? Is this in his purview still?
CANNON: He believes that governmental entities were responsible for what happened to Holly. He's unable to structure any evidence to that point. He's not going to be able to identify for the jury who is responsible. But he is going to be able to raise a reasonable doubt about who killed Holly.
COOPER: The fact that he fled the country, that, in 1981, he left the United States, that he's been living on the lam, essentially, since then in Europe, would seem to be another indication that it just makes the case tougher, basically. How do you get around the fact that this guy fled the country and tried to escape?
CANNON: Well, as one of the jurors who was being examined for potential jury service said, a man flees the country who is about to go on trial for murder for one of two reasons. Either they are guilty as sin or they are plain scared.
Ira Einhorn was scared. He was scared because his then lawyer and he had been through a number of sessions trying to get the evidence from the district attorney's office to which they were entitled. They had to fight inch by inch. Vital information was being withheld from them. In fact, a cop by the name of Draper (ph), who will testify in this trial, the information about Draper was known to the district attorney's office. The statement that Draper had given saying that he had seen Holly alive and well after she allegedly was killed was held from the defense.
COOPER: All right, well, Bill Cannon is...
CANNON: This is what motivated Ira to flee the country.
COOPER: All right, well, we will be watching your defense very closely. Bill Cannon, thanks for joining us tonight.
CANNON: You're quite welcome. Thank you very much.
COOPER: And for a more intimate look at Ira Einhorn's side of the story, stick around after we're done for "LARRY KING LIVE." Larry will talk to Einhorn's wife, Annika, tonight at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time, 6:00 Pacific.
ANNOUNCER: Next: Can face-to-face meetings finally get weapons inspectors back in Iraq?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Now to the latest on Iraq: Tomorrow, the Senate begins debating how much leeway to grant President Bush in taking on Saddam Hussein. Today, U.N. inspectors began meeting with Iraqi officials to hammer out new details for what is a very familiar scenario: U.N. inspectors crisscrossing Iraq searching for Saddam Hussein's weapons.
CNN's chief international correspondent Christian Amanpour covered the talks in Vienna today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector Hans Blix said he had come to Vienna not to negotiate but to lay out the practical arrangements that are crucial for weapons inspectors to operate smoothly in Iraq.
HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: You'd rather go through these things outside in advance and we have even said that we will not deploy inspectors to Iraq until we have had talks about these things.
AMANPOUR: In the past, there have been standoffs and confrontations, so with the Iraqi delegation, led by General Amr al- Sadi, scientific and technical adviser to the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, the two sides hammered out arrangements on everything from hotel accommodations to access, satellite communications, and removing suspect samples.
These talks will be the first sign of Iraq's cooperation with weapons inspectors and by the end of the day, Mohamed ElBaradei head of the international nuclear watchdog, the IAEA, told reporters the Iraqi delegation was positive and businesslike and that they had come with the desire to reach an agreement.
Diplomats close to the talks say there are still issues to be resolved, such as the over flights weapons inspectors want for aerial reconnaissance of suspect sites in Iraq, also access to certain sensitive areas such as the ministries of defense and intelligence, which Iraq has restricted.
Significantly off the agenda were the eight so-called presidential sites. Since access there is governed by restrictions agreed to by the U.N. Secretary General four years ago, diplomats here say it's up to the Security Council to resolve.
An important development, the Iraqi delegation plans Tuesday to deliver what it says are all the documents about what's been happening at dual-use facilities since weapons inspectors were last there four years ago. This refers to places, material, and equipment used for civilian purposes but which can also be used for military purposes including the production of weapons of mass destruction.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And Christiane joins me now from Vienna.
Christiane, how satisfied are U.N. officials tonight? If we look at today's talks as the first real test of Iraq's promise to provide unconditional access to sites, how are they doing? Are they living up to the promise?
AMANPOUR: Well, they say -- we were briefed by the senior person in charge of the nuclear watch dog committee here, the IAEA, who told us that this was a good day, that they are inching, they said, forward step by step. There are issues still to be resolved, but that overall, they felt, the Iraqi delegation had come here to go away with an agreement; in other words, that they believe that serious issues are being put on the table.
Remember, the U.N. weapons inspectors are saying they are not here to negotiate. They're here essentially to lay down and lay out what they need in order to be able to operate properly and in a hassle-free environment in Iraq. And most of the things that have been on the table so far have been agreed to. Now, significantly, the presidential sites are not even being mentioned. And it remains to be seen just how that issue will be resolved.
COOPER: Well, if U.N. officials are satisfied, I think it's probably fair to say U.S. officials probably are not all that satisfied. The U.S. has been trying to get other Security Council members to go along, passing a tougher resolution on Iraq. How are they doing in those talks? They've been talking to China, Russia and France. How are those talks going?
AMANPOUR: Well, what we are hearing is that there is quite a lot of resistance and stiffening resistance from Russia and France, the two who have voiced the most vocal opposition to any kind of new resolution that includes the use of force.
What appears to be going on, though, is that, in terms of the Iraqis and the talks here, although the talks here are technical, they are going on against that backdrop of political rhetoric, if you like, and tension in the international community. But the implications of any kind of new resolution are not being discussed here.
What we don't know is what Iraq will do if there is a new resolution. So far, they have been saying that they would not accept any new tough resolution, the likes of which the U.S. is trying to circulate. But we talked privately to a senior Iraqi diplomat in Europe, who told us that Iraq fully expects that there may eventually be a compromise between the U.S. position and the Russian and French position, a compromise for a new resolution, and that Iraq would likely accept that.
So, if that's true, that would be fairly significant.
COOPER: Christiane, in your report, you talk about these dual- use facilities that the Iraqis have handed over a large number of documentation to the U.N. about. What's the significant of the dual- use facilities? AMANPOUR: Well, dual use of the facilities, including equipment and material that are generally used for civilian purposes, but that can also easily be converted into use for military purposes. And what people worry is that they are used for the production of weapons of mass destruction.
So it's very important that Iraq be able to show that things that it is importing, for instance, are used for the civilian purposes that they claim that they are used for. But, most significantly, if the Iraqis provide what essentially amounts to four years of evidence, of documentation about what has been going on there, that will provide the weapons inspectors with what they call a baseline, a baseline from which to construct a new process and to go forward in their disarmament process.
COOPER: All right, Christiane, just a final question. This is supposed to wrap up, my understanding, by end of day tomorrow. But there's still a lot that has not been discussed: overflights, access to defense ministries, intelligence ministries, also, as you mentioned, those presidential sites, the so-called presidential palaces. Are they going to get to the things by tomorrow?
AMANPOUR: They fully expect to get to all of these things, except for the presidential sites. The presidential sites, we're told by the senior officials here, will not be on the agenda.
Why? Because those were agreed to by the secretary general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan. And the diplomats here say that it's up to the Security Council to come to a resolution on that issue. But all the other issues they expect to be on the table tomorrow. And they say that this declaration by the Iraqis of what's been going on at dual-use facilities will be significant and will amount to progress here at these talks.
And they do expect, we're being told, to wrap up tomorrow, the end of tomorrow, with an agreement all the practical arrangements needed to go back and go to work.
COOPER: Well, thanks, Christiane.
Still ahead: You've heard of curry sauce? Well, this is saucy Currie. And it is producing some major heartburn. You've been warned.
ANNOUNCER: Next: They couldn't donate organs to their own family, the story of a family-to-family kidney swap CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, imagine starving to death in the middle of a supermarket. Well, in a sense, that's what happens every year in this country to the more than 2,000 people who die of kidney failure. They die even though there are plenty of people who could safely donate their kidneys. But tonight, we found a story of hope, a story of two families. And they each thought they were going to lose a vivacious young daughter, but then these two families found each other.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Twenty-two-year-old Sara St. Pierre had been on dialysis for four years. She needed a kidney transplant. Her father, Fred St. Pierre, tried to donate his kidney. It wasn't a match.
FRED ST. PIERRE, FATHER: When I was told that I wasn't able to donate, it was a real tough day.
COOPER: In another family, 16-year-old Brittany Smith had already had one kidney transplant fail two years before. She needed another. Her 18-year-old sister, Emily, tried to donate to her, but it wasn't a match.
About six months ago, the New England Organ Bank in Boston contacted both families. They had found donor matches, although they wouldn't tell each family where the kidneys were coming from. Fred St. Pierre was a match for Brittany Smith. And Brittany's sister Emily was a match for Fred's daughter Sara. Three weeks ago, all four underwent surgery at two hospitals in Boston.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To get four operating rooms in two hospital at the same time means that we had to collaborate very closely. And a lot of people had to put in hard work to cooperate make this happen.
COOPER: Family-to-family swaps have only been done a handful of times in this country. But doctors say the prognosis for all four patients is excellent.
BRITTANY SMITH, KIDNEY RECIPIENT: It feels good to be able to do things that I couldn't do before, like go on trips or go somewhere for a couple of days and not worry about, "Oh, I have dialysis the next day."
COOPER: More than 53,000 people are awaiting a kidney transplant nationwide. Experts say they hope kidney swaps become more common, helping many more patients get a second chance.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: All right, well, get your scorecards out, because joining me from Boston, we have got everyone involved in this: Fred St. Pierre, who donated his kidney -- he's on the left there -- his daughter Sara, sitting next to him. Now, she received a kidney from Emily Smith, who is in orange right there sitting next to her. And Emily's sister Brittany received a kidney that Fred donated. And Brittany is obviously a Boston Red Sox fan, I think, from the shirt.
And for the record, Kevin Bacon was not involved in this process at all.
Let's start off with you, Sara. Emily, who is sitting right next to you, gave you her kidney. And you just met on Thursday. What was that meeting like? That must have been kind of awkward.
SARA ST. PIERRE, KIDNEY RECIPIENT: It was kind of awkward, but it was kind of cool.
COOPER: What did you say to her?
S. ST. PIERRE: I don't even remember the first thing I said to her. I hugged her.
COOPER: And, Emily, what did you say?
EMILY SMITH, KIDNEY DONOR: "Hi," I think.
B. SMITH: You gave her roses.
E. SMITH: Yes, I gave her blue roses.
COOPER: Now, Fred, you had met Brittany in the hospital. What was that meeting like?
In the hospital was -- I was still hurting a little bit myself. And I walked down to see her in her room. And she was pretty tired at the time, but definitely very appreciative. And it was nice to see her gaining, as the nurses made me very aware that she'd come a long ways and was looking better. So it was nice to see her getting better.
COOPER: Brittany, do you remember Fred coming in to see you?
B. SMITH: Yes. Yes, I do. It was nice. And I was glad he came. That way, I could actually put a face to the body part.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: And, Sara, for a lot of people who have no idea what it's like, being on dialysis for four years, I think you go three times a week. What is it like? Describe it, if you can.
S. ST. PIERRE: It makes you tired, very tired. And I would feel just wiped out a lot. I couldn't do a whole lot after, physically- wise. I'd have to just go home and go to bed and start the rest of the afternoon.
COOPER: Now, Fred, you had wanted to donate a kidney to your daughter. You had tried to do that. But you learned that you couldn't. That must have been very difficult to hear.
F. ST. PIERRE: Yes. Both the wife and I had been tested or checked out for donating early in the process. And the blood types didn't match, so that we went quite a long time waiting on the list.
COOPER: And, Emily, you wanted to donate your kidney to your sister, Brittany, who had already received a kidney several years ago. But that failed about two years ago. You wanted to donate your kidney, but you couldn't do that either, right? But you still went ahead? E. SMITH: Yes. I still wanted to be tested, but I wasn't sure. And then when they said I didn't match, I was kind of upset, because I didn't know what else was going to happen, what else they could do to help her.
COOPER: But you were still willing to donate your kidney to someone you didn't know?
E. SMITH: Yes, because, in a way, it was still helping her as well as another person, who turned out to be a really cool girl.
S. ST. PIERRE: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
COOPER: Now, when you were -- each of you, when you were told that there was a match out there, did they tell you who it was? Did they tell you that this was going to be a cross-family swap?
B. SMITH: Yes, but we didn't get to meet the people, because they said most families don't really like to meet. So they had to get permission from them and then from us, knowing that we want to meet each other.
S. ST. PIERRE: We got just names, first names, and some other information, not very much.
E. SMITH: We didn't really know a lot about who they were, so that's what made it a little bit scary.
COOPER: Now, what also makes it pretty scary is that this a very complicated operation. It involved four different operating rooms, two different hospitals. It's a lot of coordination. It's a very difficult thing. It's only been done a handful of times in the United States.
Was there a time -- Sara, let's start with you. Was there a time you thought this might not work?
S. ST. PIERRE: Yes, several times, actually. But it did. So that's what's important.
COOPER: You've been dealing with this for a long time now. You, in a sense, have been given a new life. You have your life back.
What do you want to do? Is there something you haven't been able to do that you are kind of looking forward to doing now?
S. ST. PIERRE: Traveling is a big one, that I have been stuck at home to do the dialysis and stuff. But, other than that, I don't really have any big plans.
COOPER: And, Brittany, how about you?
B. SMITH: I want to be able to run hurdles again. And I want to get back to working at the Greenville Zoo and just start working harder and getting my life put back together.
COOPER: Sara, I understand, as we said in the report before, there are 53,000 people still waiting on lists, waiting for transplants for kidneys. I understand that, before you left the hospital, you went back to your old dialysis unit to say goodbye. Your mom told us this. Why did you want to do that? And what was that like, seeing people who are still on the list, still waiting?
S. ST. PIERRE: Well, most of the people that I went to see, the nurses and stuff, they had been a part of my life for four years. And I wanted them to know that I was doing good and to see me, especially before I appeared on TV, so they knew that I was healthy and feeling good, and just to show all the patients that there is hope and that they can feel good some day, too.
B. SMITH: And, also, if your doctor does give you the option of doing it, I would take that chance. And it should work out. There was no complication with ours. And if you get the chance -- or even ask your doctor about it.
E. SMITH: It's definitely worth it. Whether you help one person or more than one, it is still helping. And it could save that person's life. It's still worth it.
S. ST. PIERRE: There's lots of medicine and lots of side effects to go with those medicines. But they're worth it, too.
COOPER: All right, well, Fred, Sara, Emily, Brittany, thank you very much for being with us. It's nice see you all here happy and healthy.
S. ST. PIERRE: Thanks.
E. SMITH: Thank you.
B. SMITH: Thanks.
ANNOUNCER: Next: a parliamentary affair. This former British Cabinet member reveals how she seduced the soon-to-be prime minister, John Major -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Life for Sean Elliott was about as good as it gets. He was a top young player on a hot pro basketball team, the San Antonio Spurs. Then he got the news that would change his life.
SEAN ELLIOTT, SAN ANTONIO SPURS: When I was first diagnosed with kidney disease, I was fearful. I didn't know what laid ahead of me. But after I reviewed my options and I educated myself, I knew that I could prolong my career. I could continue to play.
ANNOUNCER: He not only continued to play. He managed to raise his scoring average even after his diagnosis. In 1999, his stunning off-balance 3-pointer helped put the Spurs in the NBA championship. The celebration had barely ended when doctors told Elliott he'd need a new kidney.
What happened to Elliott after that? The answer when we return.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: What happened to Sean Elliott of the San Antonio Spurs after doctors told him he needed a new kidney. His brother donated one. And Elliott went on to make history as the first pro athlete to return to the game after a major transplant.
Elliott was not able to stay in the game for long, though. He's gone on to become an advocate for those with kidney disease, a commentator for ESPN, and a role model of sorts for the Miami Heat's Alonzo Mourning, who recently announced he'll be sitting out this season due to kidney disease.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: OK, so when you think of Britain, what comes to mind? Cricket, stiff upper lips, good blood pudding, perhaps? Sure. But when you think of British politics, it's nothing as exciting as all that. Britain's leaders are often portrayed as upright, civil, some might even say dull. They even used to call former Prime Minister John Major the gray man of Westminster. Well, after what we learned this weekend, they aren't calling him that anymore.
Reporting for CNN, Robin Curnow lays it all out for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN MAJOR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It is time to return to those old core values, time to get back to basics.
ROBIN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The government's policy based on personal morality, championed by then conservative Prime Minister John Major, an uncolorful English gentlemen and an unlikely candidate for Bill Clintonesque peccadillos. And he was tough on those who didn't practice so-called family values.
A legion of Tory members were sacked or resigned after a bought of sex-and-sleaze scandals during Major's government. Now this woman, Edwina Currie, a former minister in Margaret Thatcher's government, is spilling the beans on a four-year affair with Mr. Major.
CHARLIE WHELMAN, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY: John Major is not going to go down in history as a great leader of the Tory Party. Many people think he was very weak. But what it does now, it shows the hypocrisy, really, of the Tory Party in talking about back to basics and moral issues. At the same time, here's a man who had an affair with Edwina Currie. CURNOW: Although their affair took place before he was made prime minister, Edwina Currie's revelations have made many wondering what might have been if she had aired her dirty laundry sooner.
MICHAEL BROWN, FORMER CONSERVATIVE M.P.: If she had spoken up before 1990, I think the course of events might have been very, very different. There might never have been a John Major premiership.
CURNOW: But, as history had it, John Major was prime minister for seven years at 10 Downing Street, a position that the queen usually rewards with a knighthood.
HUGO VICKERS, AUTHOR, "ROYAL ORDERS": Well, most prime ministers, in due course, do receive the Order of the Garter. But I would imagine that he was very unlikely to appear in the next list -- there are four vacancies at the moment -- because the press would have a field day with all the various implications that are given to new knights of the Garter, insomuch as that they must be knights beyond approach and bear faith and truth and things like that.
CURNOW: John Major's reported sexual shenanigans are garnering wide smiles and eliciting telling jibes bemused Britons.
GORDON BROWN, CHANCELLOR: As for the Tories, what have they been up to?
(LAUGHTER)
G. BROWN: What have they been spending their time doing?
CURNOW: The question now, is what is Mr. Major going to do next? John Major's image as the gray man of British politics has been severely shattered. His former mistress' diaries are being serialized in "The Times" newspaper. And a book launch is on Wednesday. More solicitous tidbits are expected. And the British public is lapping it up.
Robin CURNOW, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, no doubt, a TV movie will soon appear.
Joining us now: a Brit who has followed John Major's career and interviewed him numerous times: Justin Webb, Washington correspondent for BBC News.
Justin, thanks very much for being with us.
You have met Mr. Major. You have interviewed him a number of times. Did you have any idea that this was going on?
JUSTIN WEBB, BBC WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I knew about it all along.
(LAUGHTER) WEBB: No, I'm kidding. Of course I didn't. No one did. This is seismic. This is the kind of thing that people just could not, in their wildest dreams or imagination, the kind of things they would not have dreamt about.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Because his image was so different than this?
WEBB: Yes, because his image was the complete 180-degrees opposite of this -- not that he was particularly someone who constantly went on about decent family values -- that became something that he had -- but that he was dull, frankly. He just wasn't the kind of guy who did this sort of thing.
The two things that he liked most of all were cricket, as you mentioned in your introduction -- an interminable British game that goes on for four or five days and nobody wins -- and the other thing is warm beer. And warm beer just ain't sexy. So, yes, it's a complete and utter surprise.
COOPER: Well, the human heart is a strange little muscle, I always say.
What happens now to John Major, his legacy? Does this -- as you said, it's so at odds with not only what his public persona was, but also his public policies, his whole back-to-basics campaign. Does this destroy any legacy he might have had?
WEBB: No, it doesn't, because, frankly, the legacy had already pretty much been destroyed. He wasn't a terribly successful prime minister. He did well to become reelected or become elected on his own right, because he sort of inherited the job from Lady Thatcher.
But then he actually won an election. Then, frankly, they didn't do terribly well. The party fell apart. There was internecine warfare. They messed up the economy. So it's not going to go down in history as a huge success. And now I guess he'll go down in history, frankly, as a bit of a hypocrite as well, which is a pity for him. And he is a man who, most people who have met him -- and I met him quite a few times -- genuinely liked.
He is, for a senior politician, extraordinarily easy to get on with and extraordinarily charming. And, do you know, if some of us had met him and wondered a bit more, maybe we would have guessed, because, at the end of the day, doesn't this prove what women want in a man? And that is, it doesn't matter too much about looks. You've just been looking at him there. But you want is charm and you want a warm sense of humor and making you feel wanted. And he was certainly good at those. He was good at those as a politician and obviously good as those as a lover as well.
COOPER: Well, now he has come forward and admitted this occurred. And he also has basically said it was sort of a dark chapter in his life, something he's ashamed of, which has actually upset Ms. Currie. She's now come forward angry that he's basically blown her off.
WEBB: Yes.
I think it's very telling that the thing that she says really upset her and made her decide that she would publish these diaries and she would reveal everything was the fact that, when John Major wrote his autobiography -- which he did two or three years ago -- she wasn't even in the index.
She obviously went to a book shop, rifled through, found she wasn't there, and thought: "Right, that's it. I'm going to go for him." And that I think gives you some sort of indication of how he feels now. And he's issued a statement saying he regrets it deeply. And she is obviously -- she wants something more than that. She wants something back from him. And she's not going to get it.
So she's going to remain pretty angry and a figure for him and indeed for the party, frankly, for some time to come.
COOPER: Only about 30 seconds. Does anyone come out of this unscathed? Or does she come off looking good? Clearly, you've said he doesn't come off looking good.
WEBB: No, she doesn't come off looking very good. He doesn't come off looking very good. His party doesn't come off looking very good. British politics perhaps comes off looking a little bit better, a little bit more interesting to people like you.
The fact that I'm here talking to you and there are people in America looking at it, you're not, I guess, particularly interested in John Major. I take it you haven't read his autobiography. Well, now he's a figure who's going to be known around the world. And that wasn't the case before.
COOPER: All right, I'll check out the autobiography.
Justin Webb, thanks very much.
We'll be right back with a word about tomorrow's program.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, tomorrow: another set of conjoined twins, but a much more difficult operation than the Guatemalan twins had. We're going to talk to the doctor who is going to try to separate the new twins.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Ira Einhorn's wife. She admits to harboring him for years after his murder conviction. You won't want to miss it.
Thank you for joining us. Good night.
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