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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Indonesian Bombing May Have Been Work of Al Qaeda; Serial Sniper Still at Large Around Washington Area

Aired October 14, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JEFFREY TOOBIN, HOST: Good evening. I'm Jeffrey Toobin, in for Connie Chung:
Tonight: terrorism worldwide. Did al Qaeda strike again?

ANNOUNCER: Terror in Bali.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is gone, the whole street.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened was barbaric, brutal mass murder, without justification.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Did al Qaeda do this? Tonight: a look at possible terror links.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Clearly, the attacks in Bali, I think we have to assume it's al Qaeda.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The hunt for an elusive serial sniper. People remain on edge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are very scared. Everybody is scared. We're scared to go to the store. We're scared to pump gas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: the portrait of a killer.

Once trusted, now on trial: A man close to secrets of the royal family stands accused of stealing millions from a princess.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very personal and very private. And I think that's how who it should remain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Did the butler do it?

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Jeffrey Toobin.

TOOBIN: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush is connecting the dots between a recent string of terror attacks around the world. The latest: the deadly blast in Bali, a placed called paradise, known as a popular resort and honeymoon destination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The attacks in Bali, I think we have to assume it's al Qaeda.

I believe that the attack on the French vessel in Yemen is connected with this type of terror, that they're related. I believe that the attack on our Marines in Kuwait reflect the international nature of these cells, these killer cells.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOOBIN: The massive bomb attack on the Indonesian island of Bali killed more than 180 people, some of them Americans.

And, as Maria Ressa reports, Southeast Asia has become a new front in the global war on terror.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The worst terrorist attack since September 11, now linked by Indonesia's defense minister to al Qaeda. It caps weeks of scattered attacks around the world: Jakarta, the Philippines, Kuwait, and Yemen, as well as taped statements by al Qaeda's top two leaders threatening global economic interests.

Terrorism experts say these show al Qaeda's evolving tactics: smaller, less sophisticated attacks, but just as deadly. The Bali blasts happened on the second anniversary of the bombing of the USS Cole. There were coordinated simultaneous attacks, just as taught in al Qaeda's training manual. The bombs targeted the U.S. and Philippine consulates and Bali's economic lifeline, tourism.

ROHAN GUNARATNA, AL QAEDA EXPERT: The attack in Bali has all the hallmarks of an al Qaeda attack, especially an attack conducted by its Southeast Asia network, Jemaah Islamiyah.

RESSA: Jemaah Islamiyah, or J.I., plotted but did not carry out truck bomb attacks against U.S. embassies and other Western interests in Singapore, the Philippines, and Indonesia. Its leader, Abu Bakar Bashir, is wanted by Singapore and Malaysia, but he lives freely in Indonesia and denies any links to J.I. or al Qaeda.

Officials in Singapore say his deputy, Riduan Isamuddin, AKA Hambali, is a longtime al Qaeda operative. In 1995, he worked closely with this man, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a bin Laden lieutenant who admitted planning the September 11 attacks. Intelligence officials in the region say that the Bali blasts have Hambali's fingerprints. Authorities say Hambali carried out a similar series of simultaneous bomb attacks in the region in December 2000. Asian intelligence sources tell CNN Hambali continues to operate in Indonesia.

(on camera): On Monday, the U.S. asked its citizens to leave Indonesia and began to evacuate nonessential embassy staff and their dependents. The focus now is on what Indonesia will do next to begin to dismantle al Qaeda's network in Southeast Asia.

Maria Ressa, CNN, Jakarta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOOBIN: One of the Americans reported missing is Jake Young, who was an All-American football player, a center at Nebraska in the late 1980s. Young works as a lawyer in Hong Kong and went to Bali to play in a rugby tournament.

We're joined now by Young's former coach, Tom Osborne, now a congressman from Nebraska, and Jake Young's parent, Jacob and Barbara (ph) Young, who are on the phone from Midland, Texas.

And, Mr. and Mrs. Young, we want to really thank you for joining us at what must be a really terrible time.

But, if you could, Mr. Young, just tell us what the latest is on what you have heard from the State Department.

JACOB C. YOUNG, FATHER OF JAKE YOUNG: At this point, sir, we don't know anything more than we did earlier. Our son is still missing. Congressman Osborne and his people have been very helpful. They have kept us informed, as has the State Department and the people from the football club in Hong Kong. But, unfortunately, at this point, we just don't know anything more.

TOOBIN: Have you been able to talk to anyone who was with your son in Bali?

J. YOUNG: No, sir, I have not talked to anyone. We have not talked to anyone that was with him. We have talked to people in Hong Kong with the football club, who now have their people on site in Bali searching. And they're keeping us updated with everything that develops. Anything that they think might affect us, they call us and tell us.

TOOBIN: Have there been contact with anyone on the club? Has anyone heard from anyone who was there in Bali with your son?

J. YOUNG: It is my understanding, sir, that they have found some members of the club. I do not know what the status was or anything about it.

TOOBIN: Congressman Osborne, if I may turn you to, you had spoken to Jake Young's wife. How is she doing?

REP. TOM OSBORNE (R), NEBRASKA: Well, I think Laura is like a lot of us. She is somewhat in shock. She seems to be a very strong young woman. And, of course, Jake and Laura have a young son named Wilson, 2 years old. And, also, Jake has a very fine family, Jake Sr. and Barbara, people that we think a great deal of. And so we share their concern and the devastating possibility that we have before us. So it's been a difficult time.

TOOBIN: What do you hear from the State Department about the scene there and about the prognosis of finding more survivors?

OSBORNE: Well, I talked to somebody from the State Department a couple of hours ago. And I think, in about three or four hours, it will be 7:00 in the morning in Bali.

And, at that time, they're hoping that they can make some positive identification and have someone from the State Department and somebody also from the football club be able to determine who is deceased and who isn't. And, of course, at this point, we're hanging on to some thread of hope that maybe there's a mistake, that somewhere Jake is OK. But it's a very difficult situation. And the odds are stacked against us a little bit at this point.

TOOBIN: Mrs. Young, could you tell us, your son was a big rugby player as well as a football player?

J. YOUNG: Well, actually, sir, he played football at the University of Nebraska. Once he moved to Hong Kong, he got involved playing rugby over there with the people there in Hong Kong at the Hong Kong Football Club. And that was his first exposure to Rugby, but he enjoyed it very much and played as much as he could.

TOOBIN: And he went to law school after he -- after playing ball at Nebraska?

J. YOUNG: That's correct, sir.

TOOBIN: Congressman Osborne, you were famous for your offensive lines when you were the coach at Nebraska. What kind of a player was Jake Young?

OSBORNE: Well, Jake was a great player. He was the first true freshman to start for us on the offensive line in 1996, a two-time All-American in 1988 and 1989. He was also an academic All-American in 1988 and 1989. And in '89, he also won the top six award, which is one of the top six scholar athletes in the NCAA. So he was one of the most accomplished athletes we ever had here.

As you mentioned, he went on to law school. He was doing corporate mergers in Hong Kong, and just an outstanding person, a great leader, a very intense player. We led the nation in rushing the two years that he was an All-American. And he was the guy that it started with. He made the offensive line calls. One of the reasons I wanted to come on this show was just to let everybody know what kind of a person Jake Young was or is and how much he meant to me and all the people here in Nebraska.

TOOBIN: Well, we certainly appreciate you coming on, Congressman Osborne, and especially, Mr. and Mrs. Young. Our thoughts are with you. And we're just hoping for the best.

BARBARA YOUNG, MOTHER OF JAKE YOUNG: Thank you.

J. YOUNG: Thank you very much.

TOOBIN: As we have said, the flurry of deadly attacks in recent weeks has been a hallmark of al Qaeda. And that has officials worried that the terrorist organization is regrouping.

As Sheila MacVicar reports, officials around the globe are calling for caution.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They are still counting the dead in Bali, trying to identify those whose bodies have been recovered, sending the wounded home to try to heal. The bombers are still unknown but in Indonesia officials say they know who did this and experts agree.

GUNARATNA: The only organization that could have conducted a professional terrorist attack of the scale we have witnessed in Bali is al Qaeda and its Southeast Asia network Jemaah Islamiyah.

MACVICAR: What is so disturbing to American officials and others is that they now fear al Qaeda has regrouped and is launching a new series of attacks.

MAGNUS RANSTORP, CTR STUDY OF TERRORISM AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE: Al Qaeda is not weakened. In many ways, it's more difficult, more unpredictable now to be able to stave off what they have in mind.

MACVICAR: In just over a week, there have been three attacks, all linked to al Qaeda. Last week, U.S. Marines training in Kuwait were attacked by gunmen. One marine died. Kuwait's government called it a terrorist act. The gunman went to bin Laden's training camps in Afghanistan. Investigators studying the explosion that holed the French oil tanker Limburg off the coast of Yemen have found debris they say came from a small explosives laden boat.

On Monday, France's president called that blast an act of terror and linked it to the bomb in Bali. The threat of terrorism, he said, remains universally present. And, a letter said to be signed by Osama bin Laden posted to an Arabic language Web site linked to al Qaeda on Monday seemed to claim responsibility for the attacks in Kuwait and Yemen saying that they were timed to coincide with the anniversary of the beginning of what it called the Crusader's War.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL), INTELLIGENCE VICE-CHAIRMAN: These could be the precursor of other things to come against our interest in the world, perhaps in the U.S. We've been much aware of this for a long time.

MACVICAR: U.S. officials say that this tape from bin Laden lieutenant Ayman Al-Zawahri and another with the voice of Osama bin Laden, both released in the past ten days, may have been meant as calls to arms. Al Qaeda detainees in Guantanamo and elsewhere have told U.S. officials that they interpreted the tapes as a sign of coming attacks, even that an attack plan had been approved.

MACVICAR (on camera): U.S. administration officials and intelligence experts in Europe and elsewhere say these attacks, as devastating as they are, may be merely warnings. Al Qaeda, they say, may be preparing a massive attack.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOOBIN: Mike Boettcher has been on the terror trail in London.

Mike, is this al Qaeda? The president seems to think so.

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, all of the sources I have spoken to and my own research in this indicates to me that, yes, it probably is a group affiliated with al Qaeda.

There's a tendency, Jeffrey, to label everything al Qaeda. The group that Indonesian authorities are describing as the top suspect, Jemaah Islamiyah, is a group that has had close contacts with al Qaeda. They have had members train in Afghanistan. And they have been quietly, for 10 years, under the tutelage of al Qaeda. And they would have the capability to do this sort of thing, although it's not confirmed it was them.

TOOBIN: And it really is a coordinated attack. We're talking two, maybe three bombs here. Is that really the signature of an organized terrorist attack, and not just somebody who stuffed a car full of dynamite?

BOETTCHER: No, absolutely. That's the hallmark of al Qaeda operations as well, al Qaeda-influenced operations: simultaneous attacks.

And we know that Jemaah Islamiyah had tried to pull off such a coordinated attack in Singapore using truck bombs against American targets and targets from other Western countries. That was broken up by coalition intelligence, Singapore and others cooperating. So this is something they have tried before. And it was pulled off this time.

TOOBIN: A simple question: Why Bali, out of all places? Why do you think the attack took place there?

BOETTCHER: Well Jeffrey, I have really been looking at this.

And if you go back to October 6 to Ayman Al-Zawahri's taped comment that was broadcast on Al-Jazeera and excerpts read on CNN, he said that they were going to be going after economic targets. And there seems to be a shift, a shift in strategy. If you look at what happened in Yemen with that French tanker being hit, that attack on that tanker came on October 6. Now, this attack in Bali, that is an attack that, besides killing many precious human lives, it also has a dramatic effect on the worldwide economy, not to mention the tourist economy in Indonesia.

Talking about the tanker explosion, it's expected that insurance rates, Jeffrey, for tankers are going to go up 250 percent. And you can imagine what that's going to do to oil prices.

TOOBIN: It's always hard to look ahead, I know. But what are the kinds of economic targets that they could also be looking, at, if in fact al Qaeda is regrouping?

BOETTCHER: Well, they're going to go to softer targets. And that was one of the things about Bali. As embassies and military installations around the world have been hardened, an attack against a very, very soft target like this tourist destination in Bali, that is something that is easy to get to.

So I think, yes, you will see more attacks in that regard, because those are soft targets. And how to predict what are those soft targets, I don't know. But certainly a tourist destination and a location that some people call paradise is certainly a soft target. And I would expect to see more of that.

TOOBIN: And is there any way, really, to defend against something like that? You can build walls around embassies. You can protect the World Trade Center. But can you protect every disco? That, just it seems so overwhelming.

BOETTCHER: No, that's the big problem. It is overwhelming. You can't do it.

I have spoken to a lot of people who are analysts in this field. And a lot of people say the best defense is, go on living. You can't be so paranoid that you can't leave your house, that you have to have a hardened disco or resort. Certainly, there are going to be resorts, in order to survive financially, are going to have to harden their security. It's just going to be a fact of life. And that's going to increase travel costs and tourism costs. But you got to go on living, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: We're going to try. Thanks, Mike.

Coming up: dealing with another form of terrorism, the urban sniper.

And we'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Next: Washington, D.C. area residents on edge as the search for the sniper intensifies, police now on the lookout for this van. Will it help break the case?

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I'm just sick, sick to my stomach to think that there is a cold-blooded killer at home taking innocent life. I weep for those who have lost their loved ones. The idea of moms taking their kids to school and sheltering them from a potential sniper attack is not the American I know. And, therefore, we're lending all the resources of the federal government, all that have been required, to do everything we can to assist the local law authorities to find this -- whoever it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOOBIN: President Bush speaking at the White House today about the sniper on the loose.

And tonight, police in the Washington, D.C. area are pressing the search for several vehicles in connection with the shootings. Authorities are preparing another composite picture, this one of a white Chevrolet Astro minivan. It was reported seen near Friday's fatal shooting at a gas station near Fredericksburg, Virginia.

This follows yesterday's release of this sketch of a white box- type truck. Hundreds of police are now hunting to track down these vehicles, in hopes of grabbing the serial killer who has hit 10 people, killing eight of them. Catching the killer or killers responsible is a difficult and painstaking process.

To shed some light on the massive effort and on the mind of the sniper, we're joined by Michael Lanning, who trained snipers during the Vietnam War; Jeffrey Smalldon, who has talked one on one to a killer sniper; and attorney Jack Thompson, who is representing families of the victims in the Paducah, Kentucky, school shootings of 1997.

Welcome to you all.

Now, Mr. Lanning, one of the things that really hits me about this is, this guy, to an amateur, seems awfully good. He has fired, it seems, 11 shots and hit people 10 times. Is that really good or is that just average work by a sniper?

MICHAEL LANNING, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE CROSSHAIRS": Well, he missed once. A real sniper probably would have probably been 11 for 11.

With the distances that I understand he has been shooting from, I would prefer to call him a marksman. A sniper generally fires at longer distances, with better, more sophisticated weapons and ammunition than this man has been using.

TOOBIN: But when you look through the scope of a rifle like this sniper/marksman is using, what do you see? LANNING: Well, we're not sure he's using a scope. He could be using open sites, if he's really a good marksman, at this distance. But he's likely using a scope.

A trained sniper at distances of 300 to 400 meters can look through the scope, site his target, pull the trigger and, then, after a recoil, have time to regain his site picture, so he actually sees the person hit by the bullet. But with the distances I understand that the sniper there in Washington, D.C. -- or marksman there in Washington, D.C., he's shooting fairly short distances.

TOOBIN: So he's very likely to see his victims crumple to the ground from his scope?

LANNING: I would imagine he does. Either that or he's close enough, he can probably look above his scope and see them just visually, without the aided optics.

TOOBIN: Now, when you trained snipers in Vietnam, as I understand it, that, sort of the close-up nature of this kind of killing, even though you are somewhat far away, because you can see so much through the scope, that is difficult for some people, isn't it, emotionally?

LANNING: Well, I recommended people for sniper school and then supervised them as a part of my infantry unit when they returned. I didn't actually work in the sniper schools.

But in Vietnam and especially today, there's a rigorous psychological testing and taking a look at the people before they go to these schools. Almost anyone can be trained to shoot and shoot accurately. The most difficult thing to do -- and you can't teach it -- is the innate ability to shoot live people and keep shooting.

TOOBIN: Let me turn to Jeffrey Smalldon.

You are a forensic psychologist. And you spoke at length to Thomas Lee Dillon. And between 1998 and 1992, Dillon was also a serial sniper. He killed five people, mostly hunters in Ohio, using a high-powered rifle. Tell us a little about it. What was he like, Mr. Dillon?

JEFF SMALLDON, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he came across as sort of a Milquetoast personality: when you first spoke with him, very mild-mannered, much-above-average intelligence, very articulate. He was a graduate of Ohio State's journalism school. He's someone who had been successful, had had the same job for 20 years, had been married for 12, had a 10-year-old son.

I think one of the things that was most striking to me, based on my interactions with him, was his almost obsessive need for control, not just over large things, but over very small things as well, even the format of our interactions.

TOOBIN: Can you tell us any similarities and differences that you have noticed between his activities and what you know of the D.C. area sniper?

SMALLDON: Well, I want to be very careful to say that I have no privileged wisdom at all about the D.C. case. What I know about that case is what I have read in the paper.

What I do have to offer is some observations based on my firsthand experience with a case that overlaps with it, in at least some important respects. I can't speculate about who the person is who may be behind the D.C. slayings.

TOOBIN: But is there -- one thing you have said about Dillon which struck me as perhaps relevant here is an interest in popular culture: true crime novels, following the news coverage. Is that something that's characteristic of people who commit crimes like this?

SMALLDON: It is. And I think it's very important.

We have a tendency to think of these individuals as the quintessential outsiders. And, in some sense, they are. But it's important that we see them in relation to the culture. Many of them -- and this certainly was the case with Thomas Lee Dillon -- are voracious consumers of the artifacts of our popular culture. And what I mean by that is the films, the books, the media reports.

When I first asked Dillon whether he was a reader of true crime literature on serial murder, he said no. And then it became apparent, the more we talked, that not only had he read books on serial murder; he was a variable walking encyclopedia about them and was very conscious of committing a series of crimes that set him apart.

He repeatedly would say to me things like: "My crimes are unique, aren't they? There's never been a case quite like this, has there?" So he was very consciously...

(CROSSTALK)

SMALLDON: I'm sorry.

TOOBIN: We would just point out that he pleaded guilty and is now serving life in prison in Ohio.

But on the subject of popular culture, Jack Thompson, you are representing the victims of the school shootings in Paducah. And it's your claim that video games inspired them to do what they did. And, in fact, you claim that video games are so realistic now, they could have prompted what we're seeing even here in the D.C. area?

JACK THOMPSON, ATTORNEY: Well, in fact, the American Sniper Association endorses a particular video game, "Silent Scope," as something so virtually real that it trains snipers on how to kill better.

Michael Carneal in the Paducah shooting had never fired a handgun before in his life, and yet he was able to fire eight times and hit eight targets, all with a single shot, which, of course, the single shot is operative here in D.C. Eric Harris, one of the two murderers in Columbine, said in German, "I am God." And, therefore, this refrain that you hear among video gamers who are shooters, some of them snipers, has a chilling echo, possibly, on the tarot card in the Washington area.

So, one of the things that troubles me about Chief Moose's investigative team is that they have focused, I think, exclusively and possibly incorrectly on military or former military people, when in fact the video games can feed the appetite to be a sniper and also give one the skill, as we saw in Michael Carneal and Klebold and Harris, to pull this type of shooting off. And, in fact, the gun used with the .223 caliber bullet is one that gives almost no recoil, which would match that of a video game rifle.

TOOBIN: Let me just ask Mr. Lanning.

I know, Mr. Lanning, you're not an expert on video games, but do you think the military is the only place you could get the training to do what was done here? Or do you think just a qualified amateur might be able to do what we have seen in the D.C. area?

LANNING: Almost any rifle range would have the training that a person would need. Or they could train themselves. They could use these other things.

But let's don't forget, he's using a .223, probably an AR-15, a civilian model of the M-16 military rifle, which is by no means a sniper rifle. He's probably using it because it is small and available and easy to hide and accurate only at the accuracy he has been shooting, for a couple of 100 meters. Real snipers use real rifles, long rifles, that are accurate up to 600 meter. And some snipers have even made kills out to 2,000 meters.

THOMPSON: Jeffrey, can I add one thing here?

TOOBIN: Please. Go ahead, Mr. Thompson.

THOMPSON: The foremost authority in the world on the causal relationship between video game training and the type of gun violence that we're seeing in the Beltway sniper is a man by the name of Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, who has been on CNN a number of times.

He has testified four times before Congress, mentioned by name by then President Clinton as the expert on this. I have given his name, phone number, contact information to Chief Moose's people. And they have not contacted him. And I think that's very disturbing, because the haystack that this twisted needle might be in may indeed be the video game community. There are particular leads that might be available in that video gaming community. And to focus solely on the military haystack, I think, is a severe mistake.

TOOBIN: OK, I think we're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you, Jeff Smalldon, Michael Lanning and Jack Thompson.

We should say that Mr. Thompson's lawsuit has been dismissed, but it is on appeal.

Up next, we'll meet a woman who is a constant target of death threats, all because of what she does. But that hasn't slowed her down one bit.

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Who stole the jewels of a princess? Fingers point to one of Princess Diana's closest confidants. The butler on trial -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TOOBIN: Leslie Crocker Snyder has a tough-as-nails reputation. She needs it. As a state Supreme Court justice in New York City, she has passed sentence on some of the roughest characters, the worst drug dealers, and sent them away for life in prison.

But her tough stance on crime has come at a high price. Justice Snyder has received numerous death threats. And since the early 1990s, she has been guarded by a 24-hour security detail, even here today at CNN. Now she has detailed her passion for the job in a new book, "25 to Life: The Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth."

Welcome, Your Honor.

JUSTICE LESLIE CROCKER SNYDER, NEW YORK SUPREME COURT: Nice to see, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: OK.

Four years went by in your courtroom, I'm told, without a single acquittal on all counts. One defense lawyer says your courtroom is like the roach motel: The defendants check in, but they don't check out. Is that fair?

SNYDER: Well, I think that sounds like something good to say. And we have had a lot of bad defendants. And a lot have been convicted. But there have been a number of acquittals. They keep track of things. I don't.

But people do check in and don't check out when they have committed violent murders, rape, sodomies, multiple drug-related murders, drug gangs. If they're convicted, they tend not to check out.

TOOBIN: And that's how you like it, right?

SNYDER: Well, I think that's appropriate.

TOOBIN: Right. You have seen really some of the worst -- drug gangs.

SNYDER: You bet.

TOOBIN: Do you have a feeling, when you walk into a courtroom, that you are in the presence of absolute evil sometimes?

SNYDER: Not until I hear the evidence, of course.

TOOBIN: Well, right. But once you hear the evidence?

SNYDER: Given some of the cases I have presided over, which I could only describe as the real-life "Law & Order" in the worse sense, some of the multiple rapes, murders, 40 murders for the Wild Cowboys.

TOOBIN: Forty murders?

SNYDER: Well, that's what they were basically accused of, although they were only indicted for 10 and numerous other crimes. Sometimes they're inexplicable, really. The violence involved, it's gratuitous. It just doesn't make any sense. And then I think it's evil.

TOOBIN: And it's come to involve you as well. Since 1988, you have started having threats. What was it like when you got your first serious threat?

SNYDER: Well, it was almost unimaginable. I came back from lunch one day and it was announced to me -- I thought it was a bad joke -- that there was a hit team on the way to kill me, black and white, from L.A.

And when I realized it was serious, it was kind of: How could this possibly happen? When you go to law school, you don't think -- you know this, Jeffrey. You don't think of this.

TOOBIN: That's right. And you are also a wife and a mother.

SNYDER: That was the worst part.

TOOBIN: I imagined that played into it, too. And your kids had protection for a while as well.

SNYDER: That's true. Thank God they're grown, because the worst thing I think for any parent is to think that your kids might be in danger, especially from something that you do.

And we had a very gripping family conference during the Wild Cowboys, when we heard the whole family was under serious death threat. And I was really proud of my family, because I said, "Maybe I shouldn't keep doing this."

And they said: "Mom, you got to keep doing this. You can't let the bad guys win."

And my husband has always been very supportive: "You got to keep doing your work." Part of the thing about people like the Cowboys is, they really feel they can intimidate the entire criminal justice system. And they had done it.

TOOBIN: By the way, who is Freddy Krueger? Who is your Freddy Krueger? SNYDER: Well, Freddy Krueger was the nickname of a guy who was hired to kill me, allegedly, by the Cowboys. And he is a character out of "Nightmare on Elm Street" or one of those horror movies.

TOOBIN: Yes, it might be "Halloween." But we get the gist. It's one of those.

SNYDER: I don't remember. It's one of those.

TOOBIN: And let's talk about nicknames for a minute. You have several: the princess of darkness, the ice princess, and, my favorite, Judge 232. Why are you called Judge 232?

SNYDER: Well, actually, I had given out a sentence of 213 years to one of the drug gang leaders. And that somehow that got converted on the street to 232. And then I got called Judge 232. But I'm really very warm and fuzzy underneath.

TOOBIN: Is that right? I'm sure that fellow what got -- Rafael Martinez, who got 213 years, he thinks the world of you.

SNYDER: Yes, absolutely.

TOOBIN: And, in fact, you received another kind of bizarre tribute. A brand of heroin was named after you. In fact, I think we have a picture of it here up on the screen there. One of the street brands of heroin was a picture of a judge there -- you can see it -- and it said "25 to life." What was that? And how did you feel about it?

SNYDER: Well, I was in good company, because they had named similar ones after Clinton, after a number of rock stars. And so, in a way, you could feel that this was a kind of perverse tribute. I was startled. Mary Jo White called me and she was laughing. She thought it was hilarious.

TOOBIN: She was then the U.S. attorney in Manhattan.

SNYDER: Yes. I should have said that. And she thought it was almost funny, because you can't do anything about it.

TOOBIN: Why do you think you have broken through to the consciousness of the defense community in a way that other judges haven't? Is it because you're tougher? Is it because you are a woman? What do you think?

SNYDER: Well, I think that I control my courtroom very tightly. And I don't take any garbage from anybody. And I think that I'm not afraid to say what I think. And there are a lot of people like that, but are a lot of people who aren't like that.

TOOBIN: And it's not all grimness with you. You have also -- you are a judge and you have performed weddings, even weddings of defendants. How does that happen?

(LAUGHTER) SNYDER: Yes. It's been fairly startling -- it's fairly startling when someone you are about to sentence to five to 10, five to 15, five to life, asks you -- through their lawyer, of course -- but, "Would you mind marrying my client? He would really like you to." And you are kind of like, "Are you serious?"

TOOBIN: And this is after the conviction or after the guilty plea.

SNYDER: After the conviction or plea and before sentence, so that they can have conjugal visits in jail, which is how New York law works.

TOOBIN: You get conjugal visits when?

SNYDER: Only if you are married prior to being sentenced.

TOOBIN: Oh, I see. So that prompts the early request for a wedding.

SNYDER: That's the early request. Now, most people take care of it in jail, actually. They have services like that. But, occasionally, I have been asked. And once I even allowed the defendant to kiss his wife, because he had been very nice. So...

TOOBIN: See, how can they call you the ice princess?

(LAUGHTER)

TOOBIN: You are often mentioned as a candidate for possibly running for office yourself. The Manhattan district attorney here is a very popular figure, but he's also very old. Do you think that might be in your future?

SNYDER: Well, I think he has got the job in perpetuity. And it would be nice if he took early retirement at 86, but I don't think that's likely. If he did, I would certainly be interested in replacing him, but we'll have to see.

TOOBIN: Thanks, Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder.

Another royal plot line when we return.

ANNOUNCER: Up next: Princess Diana robbed of millions. And the man on trial: her butler. Could a man she truly trusted be the thief?

When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TOOBIN: Back in just a moment with the latest royals controversy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TOOBIN: So, did the butler do it? Sorry. I couldn't resist. In Britain, a trial has just begun. Princess Diana's former butler stands accused of stealing hundreds of personal items following her death.

As Robyn Curnow tells us, the man in the dock spent 21 years close by Diana's side.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paul Burrell, seen here with Princess Diana in Africa, was not just her butler. He was also one of her most trusted confidants. She called him "my rock." And if he knew any royal secrets, he didn't tell.

PAUL BURRELL, PRINCESS DIANA'S FORMER BUTLER: We just got on with our jobs, and did what we could. It was very personal, very private. And I think that's how it should remain.

CURNOW: But the man who's thought to be unquestionably loyal has been charged with three counts of theft relating to more than $7.5 million of property from Diana's former residence, Kensington Palace.

(on camera): The trial of the former butler of Diana, Princess of Wales, begins in London today. It's going to take place here at the central criminal court, or the Old Bailey as it's better known.

The trial is expected to last about four weeks.

(voice-over): While deciding whether the butler did it, the court will hear evidence relating to the alleged theft of more than 300 items said to belong to the late princess, her eldest son Prince William, and her former husband, heir to the throne, Prince Charles.

The items include jewelry, CDs, hats, bags, crockery, personal photos, cards and letters, including some from Diana to Prince William and signed "mummy."

Burrell is said to be devastated by the allegations, and in a written statement, says the charges are false and that the police are simply pursuing what he calls a "trophy trial."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: But it's a trial nonetheless. And the witnesses expected over the next few weeks -- it's expected to last about four to six weeks -- are included: Princess Diana's sister, Lady Sarah McCorquodale. Her mother might testify against Paul Burrell. And there's even some press reports that the supermodel Claudia Schiffer will also appear on the dock, probably talking about a photograph that was also found in Paul Burrell's house, a photograph of her and Prince William, the young man, of course, who one day will be king.

But what it boils down to, whoever the witnesses are in the next four week, it boils down to the fact that they will be definitely talking about a case of who saw the butler.

TOOBIN: Right, indeed, Robyn. Robyn, one thing I don't understand about this case, is he perceived in Britain now has someone who really betrayed Princess Diana, or is he still seen as the rock who was by her side?

CURNOW: I think Britons are really, really confused. This was, after all, the man, one of the few people in the inner circle around Princess Diana that really hasn't sold her story or even sold the story of the royal family.

He has made a real effort to be very forthright, very British, I suppose, about his close relationship with Diana over the years. He hasn't made any money in telling the story. There have been no royals leakages, so to speak, from him. So, the Britons are a bit confused as to why this man, who was, as we know, her close confidant -- this is the man who actually helped prepare her body for burial. This is the man who was the only non-family member at her burial. Before her funeral, he spent the whole night praying by her body.

So the contrast, the juxtaposition of this image of this man who stole all these very intensely personal items from Diana and the other image of this man who really stood by her through -- in life and in death is very confusing. And I think we will be able to see the way the British public reacts to this as the trial goes on and we hear more details from the police and from the prosecution about what exactly he's accused of.

TOOBIN: And the confusing thing is, he has all these items, but he has not tried to sell them yet. However, the prosecution says he was just waiting until the time was right, when they presumably would still be very valuable. What do you make of that?

CURNOW: There were lots of suggestions from the prosecution in court today of that exact nature, basically suggestions -- as the prosecutor was going through the list, more than 300 items, he sort of went through and he just suggested as he was going through, "Just imagine the value of a CD, an Elton John CD signed by Diana."

Diana was in the habit of signing all her possessions. Maybe it was an old habit from boarding school days. But she signed all her CDs "Diana." Behind the photographs are signed "Diana," letters between her and Mother Teresa, between Diana and the prime minister, John Major. It's these sort of things that in future years, 20 years down the line, will be incredibly valuable.

Imagine just one of those on auction. To have more than 300 items, everything from Versace dresses to photos to letters, is a treasure trove, really.

TOOBIN: Robyn Curnow in London, thank you very much.

Next: Whatever happened to that cute Canadian couple from Salt Lake City?

Notes about tomorrow when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TOOBIN: Today's trial in London is the latest in a string of courtroom action surrounding the late Princess Diana. In tonight's "Off the Radar," we look at a central figure in the investigation that followed the crash that killed her more than five years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: The car carrying Princess Diana on August 31, 1997 was hurtling along at more than 85 miles an hour. The driver's blood- alcohol level was three times the legal limit. Neither he nor Diana or Dodi Al Fayed was wearing a seat belt. Their deaths should be considered no surprise.

What was a surprise was that someone survived: Al Fayed's bodyguard, Trevor Rees-Jones, a British army veteran of anti-IRA surveillance and Operation Desert Storm. Rees-Jones was in the front seat wearing a seat belt. Badly scarred, badly injured, his face partially paralyzed, he recovered to hear that Al Fayed's father blamed him for the crash.

TREVOR REES-JONES, FORMER BODYGUARD FOR DODI AL FAYED: I have cooperated fully with the judge who is investigating the accident. And I told him all I know up to this present time. I may wish to ask to see the judge again in the future, but I have no intention of doing this at the moment. I would also like to add that I have got no intentions of speaking further on the subject publicly until after the court proceedings are finished.

ANNOUNCER: Was it his fault? And whatever happened to him? The answers when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Was Dodi Al Fayed's bodyguard, Trevor Rees-Jones, to blame for the car crash that killed Princess Diana? A French inquest cleared him. But while he struggled to find another job in security, he ended up selling sneakers part-time, until releasing his book on the crash. In 2001, he became U.S. deputy head of security in a town in East Timor. He never regained his memories of the crash itself.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOOBIN: Tomorrow: Remember the Olympics figure skating controversy, the Canadian pair that shared the gold? What have they been up to since Salt Lake City? Tomorrow, they'll join us.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": an hour with Regis Philbin, the man television viewers can't seem to get enough of.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us here at CNN, good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Sniper Still at Large Around Washington Area>


Aired October 14, 2002 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, HOST: Good evening. I'm Jeffrey Toobin, in for Connie Chung:
Tonight: terrorism worldwide. Did al Qaeda strike again?

ANNOUNCER: Terror in Bali.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything is gone, the whole street.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened was barbaric, brutal mass murder, without justification.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Did al Qaeda do this? Tonight: a look at possible terror links.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Clearly, the attacks in Bali, I think we have to assume it's al Qaeda.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The hunt for an elusive serial sniper. People remain on edge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are very scared. Everybody is scared. We're scared to go to the store. We're scared to pump gas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: the portrait of a killer.

Once trusted, now on trial: A man close to secrets of the royal family stands accused of stealing millions from a princess.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was very personal and very private. And I think that's how who it should remain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Did the butler do it?

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. From the Broadcast Center in New York, sitting in for Connie Chung, Jeffrey Toobin.

TOOBIN: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush is connecting the dots between a recent string of terror attacks around the world. The latest: the deadly blast in Bali, a placed called paradise, known as a popular resort and honeymoon destination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The attacks in Bali, I think we have to assume it's al Qaeda.

I believe that the attack on the French vessel in Yemen is connected with this type of terror, that they're related. I believe that the attack on our Marines in Kuwait reflect the international nature of these cells, these killer cells.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOOBIN: The massive bomb attack on the Indonesian island of Bali killed more than 180 people, some of them Americans.

And, as Maria Ressa reports, Southeast Asia has become a new front in the global war on terror.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The worst terrorist attack since September 11, now linked by Indonesia's defense minister to al Qaeda. It caps weeks of scattered attacks around the world: Jakarta, the Philippines, Kuwait, and Yemen, as well as taped statements by al Qaeda's top two leaders threatening global economic interests.

Terrorism experts say these show al Qaeda's evolving tactics: smaller, less sophisticated attacks, but just as deadly. The Bali blasts happened on the second anniversary of the bombing of the USS Cole. There were coordinated simultaneous attacks, just as taught in al Qaeda's training manual. The bombs targeted the U.S. and Philippine consulates and Bali's economic lifeline, tourism.

ROHAN GUNARATNA, AL QAEDA EXPERT: The attack in Bali has all the hallmarks of an al Qaeda attack, especially an attack conducted by its Southeast Asia network, Jemaah Islamiyah.

RESSA: Jemaah Islamiyah, or J.I., plotted but did not carry out truck bomb attacks against U.S. embassies and other Western interests in Singapore, the Philippines, and Indonesia. Its leader, Abu Bakar Bashir, is wanted by Singapore and Malaysia, but he lives freely in Indonesia and denies any links to J.I. or al Qaeda.

Officials in Singapore say his deputy, Riduan Isamuddin, AKA Hambali, is a longtime al Qaeda operative. In 1995, he worked closely with this man, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a bin Laden lieutenant who admitted planning the September 11 attacks. Intelligence officials in the region say that the Bali blasts have Hambali's fingerprints. Authorities say Hambali carried out a similar series of simultaneous bomb attacks in the region in December 2000. Asian intelligence sources tell CNN Hambali continues to operate in Indonesia.

(on camera): On Monday, the U.S. asked its citizens to leave Indonesia and began to evacuate nonessential embassy staff and their dependents. The focus now is on what Indonesia will do next to begin to dismantle al Qaeda's network in Southeast Asia.

Maria Ressa, CNN, Jakarta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOOBIN: One of the Americans reported missing is Jake Young, who was an All-American football player, a center at Nebraska in the late 1980s. Young works as a lawyer in Hong Kong and went to Bali to play in a rugby tournament.

We're joined now by Young's former coach, Tom Osborne, now a congressman from Nebraska, and Jake Young's parent, Jacob and Barbara (ph) Young, who are on the phone from Midland, Texas.

And, Mr. and Mrs. Young, we want to really thank you for joining us at what must be a really terrible time.

But, if you could, Mr. Young, just tell us what the latest is on what you have heard from the State Department.

JACOB C. YOUNG, FATHER OF JAKE YOUNG: At this point, sir, we don't know anything more than we did earlier. Our son is still missing. Congressman Osborne and his people have been very helpful. They have kept us informed, as has the State Department and the people from the football club in Hong Kong. But, unfortunately, at this point, we just don't know anything more.

TOOBIN: Have you been able to talk to anyone who was with your son in Bali?

J. YOUNG: No, sir, I have not talked to anyone. We have not talked to anyone that was with him. We have talked to people in Hong Kong with the football club, who now have their people on site in Bali searching. And they're keeping us updated with everything that develops. Anything that they think might affect us, they call us and tell us.

TOOBIN: Have there been contact with anyone on the club? Has anyone heard from anyone who was there in Bali with your son?

J. YOUNG: It is my understanding, sir, that they have found some members of the club. I do not know what the status was or anything about it.

TOOBIN: Congressman Osborne, if I may turn you to, you had spoken to Jake Young's wife. How is she doing?

REP. TOM OSBORNE (R), NEBRASKA: Well, I think Laura is like a lot of us. She is somewhat in shock. She seems to be a very strong young woman. And, of course, Jake and Laura have a young son named Wilson, 2 years old. And, also, Jake has a very fine family, Jake Sr. and Barbara, people that we think a great deal of. And so we share their concern and the devastating possibility that we have before us. So it's been a difficult time.

TOOBIN: What do you hear from the State Department about the scene there and about the prognosis of finding more survivors?

OSBORNE: Well, I talked to somebody from the State Department a couple of hours ago. And I think, in about three or four hours, it will be 7:00 in the morning in Bali.

And, at that time, they're hoping that they can make some positive identification and have someone from the State Department and somebody also from the football club be able to determine who is deceased and who isn't. And, of course, at this point, we're hanging on to some thread of hope that maybe there's a mistake, that somewhere Jake is OK. But it's a very difficult situation. And the odds are stacked against us a little bit at this point.

TOOBIN: Mrs. Young, could you tell us, your son was a big rugby player as well as a football player?

J. YOUNG: Well, actually, sir, he played football at the University of Nebraska. Once he moved to Hong Kong, he got involved playing rugby over there with the people there in Hong Kong at the Hong Kong Football Club. And that was his first exposure to Rugby, but he enjoyed it very much and played as much as he could.

TOOBIN: And he went to law school after he -- after playing ball at Nebraska?

J. YOUNG: That's correct, sir.

TOOBIN: Congressman Osborne, you were famous for your offensive lines when you were the coach at Nebraska. What kind of a player was Jake Young?

OSBORNE: Well, Jake was a great player. He was the first true freshman to start for us on the offensive line in 1996, a two-time All-American in 1988 and 1989. He was also an academic All-American in 1988 and 1989. And in '89, he also won the top six award, which is one of the top six scholar athletes in the NCAA. So he was one of the most accomplished athletes we ever had here.

As you mentioned, he went on to law school. He was doing corporate mergers in Hong Kong, and just an outstanding person, a great leader, a very intense player. We led the nation in rushing the two years that he was an All-American. And he was the guy that it started with. He made the offensive line calls. One of the reasons I wanted to come on this show was just to let everybody know what kind of a person Jake Young was or is and how much he meant to me and all the people here in Nebraska.

TOOBIN: Well, we certainly appreciate you coming on, Congressman Osborne, and especially, Mr. and Mrs. Young. Our thoughts are with you. And we're just hoping for the best.

BARBARA YOUNG, MOTHER OF JAKE YOUNG: Thank you.

J. YOUNG: Thank you very much.

TOOBIN: As we have said, the flurry of deadly attacks in recent weeks has been a hallmark of al Qaeda. And that has officials worried that the terrorist organization is regrouping.

As Sheila MacVicar reports, officials around the globe are calling for caution.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): They are still counting the dead in Bali, trying to identify those whose bodies have been recovered, sending the wounded home to try to heal. The bombers are still unknown but in Indonesia officials say they know who did this and experts agree.

GUNARATNA: The only organization that could have conducted a professional terrorist attack of the scale we have witnessed in Bali is al Qaeda and its Southeast Asia network Jemaah Islamiyah.

MACVICAR: What is so disturbing to American officials and others is that they now fear al Qaeda has regrouped and is launching a new series of attacks.

MAGNUS RANSTORP, CTR STUDY OF TERRORISM AND POLITICAL VIOLENCE: Al Qaeda is not weakened. In many ways, it's more difficult, more unpredictable now to be able to stave off what they have in mind.

MACVICAR: In just over a week, there have been three attacks, all linked to al Qaeda. Last week, U.S. Marines training in Kuwait were attacked by gunmen. One marine died. Kuwait's government called it a terrorist act. The gunman went to bin Laden's training camps in Afghanistan. Investigators studying the explosion that holed the French oil tanker Limburg off the coast of Yemen have found debris they say came from a small explosives laden boat.

On Monday, France's president called that blast an act of terror and linked it to the bomb in Bali. The threat of terrorism, he said, remains universally present. And, a letter said to be signed by Osama bin Laden posted to an Arabic language Web site linked to al Qaeda on Monday seemed to claim responsibility for the attacks in Kuwait and Yemen saying that they were timed to coincide with the anniversary of the beginning of what it called the Crusader's War.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL), INTELLIGENCE VICE-CHAIRMAN: These could be the precursor of other things to come against our interest in the world, perhaps in the U.S. We've been much aware of this for a long time.

MACVICAR: U.S. officials say that this tape from bin Laden lieutenant Ayman Al-Zawahri and another with the voice of Osama bin Laden, both released in the past ten days, may have been meant as calls to arms. Al Qaeda detainees in Guantanamo and elsewhere have told U.S. officials that they interpreted the tapes as a sign of coming attacks, even that an attack plan had been approved.

MACVICAR (on camera): U.S. administration officials and intelligence experts in Europe and elsewhere say these attacks, as devastating as they are, may be merely warnings. Al Qaeda, they say, may be preparing a massive attack.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOOBIN: Mike Boettcher has been on the terror trail in London.

Mike, is this al Qaeda? The president seems to think so.

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, all of the sources I have spoken to and my own research in this indicates to me that, yes, it probably is a group affiliated with al Qaeda.

There's a tendency, Jeffrey, to label everything al Qaeda. The group that Indonesian authorities are describing as the top suspect, Jemaah Islamiyah, is a group that has had close contacts with al Qaeda. They have had members train in Afghanistan. And they have been quietly, for 10 years, under the tutelage of al Qaeda. And they would have the capability to do this sort of thing, although it's not confirmed it was them.

TOOBIN: And it really is a coordinated attack. We're talking two, maybe three bombs here. Is that really the signature of an organized terrorist attack, and not just somebody who stuffed a car full of dynamite?

BOETTCHER: No, absolutely. That's the hallmark of al Qaeda operations as well, al Qaeda-influenced operations: simultaneous attacks.

And we know that Jemaah Islamiyah had tried to pull off such a coordinated attack in Singapore using truck bombs against American targets and targets from other Western countries. That was broken up by coalition intelligence, Singapore and others cooperating. So this is something they have tried before. And it was pulled off this time.

TOOBIN: A simple question: Why Bali, out of all places? Why do you think the attack took place there?

BOETTCHER: Well Jeffrey, I have really been looking at this.

And if you go back to October 6 to Ayman Al-Zawahri's taped comment that was broadcast on Al-Jazeera and excerpts read on CNN, he said that they were going to be going after economic targets. And there seems to be a shift, a shift in strategy. If you look at what happened in Yemen with that French tanker being hit, that attack on that tanker came on October 6. Now, this attack in Bali, that is an attack that, besides killing many precious human lives, it also has a dramatic effect on the worldwide economy, not to mention the tourist economy in Indonesia.

Talking about the tanker explosion, it's expected that insurance rates, Jeffrey, for tankers are going to go up 250 percent. And you can imagine what that's going to do to oil prices.

TOOBIN: It's always hard to look ahead, I know. But what are the kinds of economic targets that they could also be looking, at, if in fact al Qaeda is regrouping?

BOETTCHER: Well, they're going to go to softer targets. And that was one of the things about Bali. As embassies and military installations around the world have been hardened, an attack against a very, very soft target like this tourist destination in Bali, that is something that is easy to get to.

So I think, yes, you will see more attacks in that regard, because those are soft targets. And how to predict what are those soft targets, I don't know. But certainly a tourist destination and a location that some people call paradise is certainly a soft target. And I would expect to see more of that.

TOOBIN: And is there any way, really, to defend against something like that? You can build walls around embassies. You can protect the World Trade Center. But can you protect every disco? That, just it seems so overwhelming.

BOETTCHER: No, that's the big problem. It is overwhelming. You can't do it.

I have spoken to a lot of people who are analysts in this field. And a lot of people say the best defense is, go on living. You can't be so paranoid that you can't leave your house, that you have to have a hardened disco or resort. Certainly, there are going to be resorts, in order to survive financially, are going to have to harden their security. It's just going to be a fact of life. And that's going to increase travel costs and tourism costs. But you got to go on living, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: We're going to try. Thanks, Mike.

Coming up: dealing with another form of terrorism, the urban sniper.

And we'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Next: Washington, D.C. area residents on edge as the search for the sniper intensifies, police now on the lookout for this van. Will it help break the case?

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT is coming right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I'm just sick, sick to my stomach to think that there is a cold-blooded killer at home taking innocent life. I weep for those who have lost their loved ones. The idea of moms taking their kids to school and sheltering them from a potential sniper attack is not the American I know. And, therefore, we're lending all the resources of the federal government, all that have been required, to do everything we can to assist the local law authorities to find this -- whoever it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TOOBIN: President Bush speaking at the White House today about the sniper on the loose.

And tonight, police in the Washington, D.C. area are pressing the search for several vehicles in connection with the shootings. Authorities are preparing another composite picture, this one of a white Chevrolet Astro minivan. It was reported seen near Friday's fatal shooting at a gas station near Fredericksburg, Virginia.

This follows yesterday's release of this sketch of a white box- type truck. Hundreds of police are now hunting to track down these vehicles, in hopes of grabbing the serial killer who has hit 10 people, killing eight of them. Catching the killer or killers responsible is a difficult and painstaking process.

To shed some light on the massive effort and on the mind of the sniper, we're joined by Michael Lanning, who trained snipers during the Vietnam War; Jeffrey Smalldon, who has talked one on one to a killer sniper; and attorney Jack Thompson, who is representing families of the victims in the Paducah, Kentucky, school shootings of 1997.

Welcome to you all.

Now, Mr. Lanning, one of the things that really hits me about this is, this guy, to an amateur, seems awfully good. He has fired, it seems, 11 shots and hit people 10 times. Is that really good or is that just average work by a sniper?

MICHAEL LANNING, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE CROSSHAIRS": Well, he missed once. A real sniper probably would have probably been 11 for 11.

With the distances that I understand he has been shooting from, I would prefer to call him a marksman. A sniper generally fires at longer distances, with better, more sophisticated weapons and ammunition than this man has been using.

TOOBIN: But when you look through the scope of a rifle like this sniper/marksman is using, what do you see? LANNING: Well, we're not sure he's using a scope. He could be using open sites, if he's really a good marksman, at this distance. But he's likely using a scope.

A trained sniper at distances of 300 to 400 meters can look through the scope, site his target, pull the trigger and, then, after a recoil, have time to regain his site picture, so he actually sees the person hit by the bullet. But with the distances I understand that the sniper there in Washington, D.C. -- or marksman there in Washington, D.C., he's shooting fairly short distances.

TOOBIN: So he's very likely to see his victims crumple to the ground from his scope?

LANNING: I would imagine he does. Either that or he's close enough, he can probably look above his scope and see them just visually, without the aided optics.

TOOBIN: Now, when you trained snipers in Vietnam, as I understand it, that, sort of the close-up nature of this kind of killing, even though you are somewhat far away, because you can see so much through the scope, that is difficult for some people, isn't it, emotionally?

LANNING: Well, I recommended people for sniper school and then supervised them as a part of my infantry unit when they returned. I didn't actually work in the sniper schools.

But in Vietnam and especially today, there's a rigorous psychological testing and taking a look at the people before they go to these schools. Almost anyone can be trained to shoot and shoot accurately. The most difficult thing to do -- and you can't teach it -- is the innate ability to shoot live people and keep shooting.

TOOBIN: Let me turn to Jeffrey Smalldon.

You are a forensic psychologist. And you spoke at length to Thomas Lee Dillon. And between 1998 and 1992, Dillon was also a serial sniper. He killed five people, mostly hunters in Ohio, using a high-powered rifle. Tell us a little about it. What was he like, Mr. Dillon?

JEFF SMALLDON, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he came across as sort of a Milquetoast personality: when you first spoke with him, very mild-mannered, much-above-average intelligence, very articulate. He was a graduate of Ohio State's journalism school. He's someone who had been successful, had had the same job for 20 years, had been married for 12, had a 10-year-old son.

I think one of the things that was most striking to me, based on my interactions with him, was his almost obsessive need for control, not just over large things, but over very small things as well, even the format of our interactions.

TOOBIN: Can you tell us any similarities and differences that you have noticed between his activities and what you know of the D.C. area sniper?

SMALLDON: Well, I want to be very careful to say that I have no privileged wisdom at all about the D.C. case. What I know about that case is what I have read in the paper.

What I do have to offer is some observations based on my firsthand experience with a case that overlaps with it, in at least some important respects. I can't speculate about who the person is who may be behind the D.C. slayings.

TOOBIN: But is there -- one thing you have said about Dillon which struck me as perhaps relevant here is an interest in popular culture: true crime novels, following the news coverage. Is that something that's characteristic of people who commit crimes like this?

SMALLDON: It is. And I think it's very important.

We have a tendency to think of these individuals as the quintessential outsiders. And, in some sense, they are. But it's important that we see them in relation to the culture. Many of them -- and this certainly was the case with Thomas Lee Dillon -- are voracious consumers of the artifacts of our popular culture. And what I mean by that is the films, the books, the media reports.

When I first asked Dillon whether he was a reader of true crime literature on serial murder, he said no. And then it became apparent, the more we talked, that not only had he read books on serial murder; he was a variable walking encyclopedia about them and was very conscious of committing a series of crimes that set him apart.

He repeatedly would say to me things like: "My crimes are unique, aren't they? There's never been a case quite like this, has there?" So he was very consciously...

(CROSSTALK)

SMALLDON: I'm sorry.

TOOBIN: We would just point out that he pleaded guilty and is now serving life in prison in Ohio.

But on the subject of popular culture, Jack Thompson, you are representing the victims of the school shootings in Paducah. And it's your claim that video games inspired them to do what they did. And, in fact, you claim that video games are so realistic now, they could have prompted what we're seeing even here in the D.C. area?

JACK THOMPSON, ATTORNEY: Well, in fact, the American Sniper Association endorses a particular video game, "Silent Scope," as something so virtually real that it trains snipers on how to kill better.

Michael Carneal in the Paducah shooting had never fired a handgun before in his life, and yet he was able to fire eight times and hit eight targets, all with a single shot, which, of course, the single shot is operative here in D.C. Eric Harris, one of the two murderers in Columbine, said in German, "I am God." And, therefore, this refrain that you hear among video gamers who are shooters, some of them snipers, has a chilling echo, possibly, on the tarot card in the Washington area.

So, one of the things that troubles me about Chief Moose's investigative team is that they have focused, I think, exclusively and possibly incorrectly on military or former military people, when in fact the video games can feed the appetite to be a sniper and also give one the skill, as we saw in Michael Carneal and Klebold and Harris, to pull this type of shooting off. And, in fact, the gun used with the .223 caliber bullet is one that gives almost no recoil, which would match that of a video game rifle.

TOOBIN: Let me just ask Mr. Lanning.

I know, Mr. Lanning, you're not an expert on video games, but do you think the military is the only place you could get the training to do what was done here? Or do you think just a qualified amateur might be able to do what we have seen in the D.C. area?

LANNING: Almost any rifle range would have the training that a person would need. Or they could train themselves. They could use these other things.

But let's don't forget, he's using a .223, probably an AR-15, a civilian model of the M-16 military rifle, which is by no means a sniper rifle. He's probably using it because it is small and available and easy to hide and accurate only at the accuracy he has been shooting, for a couple of 100 meters. Real snipers use real rifles, long rifles, that are accurate up to 600 meter. And some snipers have even made kills out to 2,000 meters.

THOMPSON: Jeffrey, can I add one thing here?

TOOBIN: Please. Go ahead, Mr. Thompson.

THOMPSON: The foremost authority in the world on the causal relationship between video game training and the type of gun violence that we're seeing in the Beltway sniper is a man by the name of Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, who has been on CNN a number of times.

He has testified four times before Congress, mentioned by name by then President Clinton as the expert on this. I have given his name, phone number, contact information to Chief Moose's people. And they have not contacted him. And I think that's very disturbing, because the haystack that this twisted needle might be in may indeed be the video game community. There are particular leads that might be available in that video gaming community. And to focus solely on the military haystack, I think, is a severe mistake.

TOOBIN: OK, I think we're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you, Jeff Smalldon, Michael Lanning and Jack Thompson.

We should say that Mr. Thompson's lawsuit has been dismissed, but it is on appeal.

Up next, we'll meet a woman who is a constant target of death threats, all because of what she does. But that hasn't slowed her down one bit.

We'll be right back.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Who stole the jewels of a princess? Fingers point to one of Princess Diana's closest confidants. The butler on trial -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TOOBIN: Leslie Crocker Snyder has a tough-as-nails reputation. She needs it. As a state Supreme Court justice in New York City, she has passed sentence on some of the roughest characters, the worst drug dealers, and sent them away for life in prison.

But her tough stance on crime has come at a high price. Justice Snyder has received numerous death threats. And since the early 1990s, she has been guarded by a 24-hour security detail, even here today at CNN. Now she has detailed her passion for the job in a new book, "25 to Life: The Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth."

Welcome, Your Honor.

JUSTICE LESLIE CROCKER SNYDER, NEW YORK SUPREME COURT: Nice to see, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: OK.

Four years went by in your courtroom, I'm told, without a single acquittal on all counts. One defense lawyer says your courtroom is like the roach motel: The defendants check in, but they don't check out. Is that fair?

SNYDER: Well, I think that sounds like something good to say. And we have had a lot of bad defendants. And a lot have been convicted. But there have been a number of acquittals. They keep track of things. I don't.

But people do check in and don't check out when they have committed violent murders, rape, sodomies, multiple drug-related murders, drug gangs. If they're convicted, they tend not to check out.

TOOBIN: And that's how you like it, right?

SNYDER: Well, I think that's appropriate.

TOOBIN: Right. You have seen really some of the worst -- drug gangs.

SNYDER: You bet.

TOOBIN: Do you have a feeling, when you walk into a courtroom, that you are in the presence of absolute evil sometimes?

SNYDER: Not until I hear the evidence, of course.

TOOBIN: Well, right. But once you hear the evidence?

SNYDER: Given some of the cases I have presided over, which I could only describe as the real-life "Law & Order" in the worse sense, some of the multiple rapes, murders, 40 murders for the Wild Cowboys.

TOOBIN: Forty murders?

SNYDER: Well, that's what they were basically accused of, although they were only indicted for 10 and numerous other crimes. Sometimes they're inexplicable, really. The violence involved, it's gratuitous. It just doesn't make any sense. And then I think it's evil.

TOOBIN: And it's come to involve you as well. Since 1988, you have started having threats. What was it like when you got your first serious threat?

SNYDER: Well, it was almost unimaginable. I came back from lunch one day and it was announced to me -- I thought it was a bad joke -- that there was a hit team on the way to kill me, black and white, from L.A.

And when I realized it was serious, it was kind of: How could this possibly happen? When you go to law school, you don't think -- you know this, Jeffrey. You don't think of this.

TOOBIN: That's right. And you are also a wife and a mother.

SNYDER: That was the worst part.

TOOBIN: I imagined that played into it, too. And your kids had protection for a while as well.

SNYDER: That's true. Thank God they're grown, because the worst thing I think for any parent is to think that your kids might be in danger, especially from something that you do.

And we had a very gripping family conference during the Wild Cowboys, when we heard the whole family was under serious death threat. And I was really proud of my family, because I said, "Maybe I shouldn't keep doing this."

And they said: "Mom, you got to keep doing this. You can't let the bad guys win."

And my husband has always been very supportive: "You got to keep doing your work." Part of the thing about people like the Cowboys is, they really feel they can intimidate the entire criminal justice system. And they had done it.

TOOBIN: By the way, who is Freddy Krueger? Who is your Freddy Krueger? SNYDER: Well, Freddy Krueger was the nickname of a guy who was hired to kill me, allegedly, by the Cowboys. And he is a character out of "Nightmare on Elm Street" or one of those horror movies.

TOOBIN: Yes, it might be "Halloween." But we get the gist. It's one of those.

SNYDER: I don't remember. It's one of those.

TOOBIN: And let's talk about nicknames for a minute. You have several: the princess of darkness, the ice princess, and, my favorite, Judge 232. Why are you called Judge 232?

SNYDER: Well, actually, I had given out a sentence of 213 years to one of the drug gang leaders. And that somehow that got converted on the street to 232. And then I got called Judge 232. But I'm really very warm and fuzzy underneath.

TOOBIN: Is that right? I'm sure that fellow what got -- Rafael Martinez, who got 213 years, he thinks the world of you.

SNYDER: Yes, absolutely.

TOOBIN: And, in fact, you received another kind of bizarre tribute. A brand of heroin was named after you. In fact, I think we have a picture of it here up on the screen there. One of the street brands of heroin was a picture of a judge there -- you can see it -- and it said "25 to life." What was that? And how did you feel about it?

SNYDER: Well, I was in good company, because they had named similar ones after Clinton, after a number of rock stars. And so, in a way, you could feel that this was a kind of perverse tribute. I was startled. Mary Jo White called me and she was laughing. She thought it was hilarious.

TOOBIN: She was then the U.S. attorney in Manhattan.

SNYDER: Yes. I should have said that. And she thought it was almost funny, because you can't do anything about it.

TOOBIN: Why do you think you have broken through to the consciousness of the defense community in a way that other judges haven't? Is it because you're tougher? Is it because you are a woman? What do you think?

SNYDER: Well, I think that I control my courtroom very tightly. And I don't take any garbage from anybody. And I think that I'm not afraid to say what I think. And there are a lot of people like that, but are a lot of people who aren't like that.

TOOBIN: And it's not all grimness with you. You have also -- you are a judge and you have performed weddings, even weddings of defendants. How does that happen?

(LAUGHTER) SNYDER: Yes. It's been fairly startling -- it's fairly startling when someone you are about to sentence to five to 10, five to 15, five to life, asks you -- through their lawyer, of course -- but, "Would you mind marrying my client? He would really like you to." And you are kind of like, "Are you serious?"

TOOBIN: And this is after the conviction or after the guilty plea.

SNYDER: After the conviction or plea and before sentence, so that they can have conjugal visits in jail, which is how New York law works.

TOOBIN: You get conjugal visits when?

SNYDER: Only if you are married prior to being sentenced.

TOOBIN: Oh, I see. So that prompts the early request for a wedding.

SNYDER: That's the early request. Now, most people take care of it in jail, actually. They have services like that. But, occasionally, I have been asked. And once I even allowed the defendant to kiss his wife, because he had been very nice. So...

TOOBIN: See, how can they call you the ice princess?

(LAUGHTER)

TOOBIN: You are often mentioned as a candidate for possibly running for office yourself. The Manhattan district attorney here is a very popular figure, but he's also very old. Do you think that might be in your future?

SNYDER: Well, I think he has got the job in perpetuity. And it would be nice if he took early retirement at 86, but I don't think that's likely. If he did, I would certainly be interested in replacing him, but we'll have to see.

TOOBIN: Thanks, Judge Leslie Crocker Snyder.

Another royal plot line when we return.

ANNOUNCER: Up next: Princess Diana robbed of millions. And the man on trial: her butler. Could a man she truly trusted be the thief?

When CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TOOBIN: Back in just a moment with the latest royals controversy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TOOBIN: So, did the butler do it? Sorry. I couldn't resist. In Britain, a trial has just begun. Princess Diana's former butler stands accused of stealing hundreds of personal items following her death.

As Robyn Curnow tells us, the man in the dock spent 21 years close by Diana's side.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBYN CURNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paul Burrell, seen here with Princess Diana in Africa, was not just her butler. He was also one of her most trusted confidants. She called him "my rock." And if he knew any royal secrets, he didn't tell.

PAUL BURRELL, PRINCESS DIANA'S FORMER BUTLER: We just got on with our jobs, and did what we could. It was very personal, very private. And I think that's how it should remain.

CURNOW: But the man who's thought to be unquestionably loyal has been charged with three counts of theft relating to more than $7.5 million of property from Diana's former residence, Kensington Palace.

(on camera): The trial of the former butler of Diana, Princess of Wales, begins in London today. It's going to take place here at the central criminal court, or the Old Bailey as it's better known.

The trial is expected to last about four weeks.

(voice-over): While deciding whether the butler did it, the court will hear evidence relating to the alleged theft of more than 300 items said to belong to the late princess, her eldest son Prince William, and her former husband, heir to the throne, Prince Charles.

The items include jewelry, CDs, hats, bags, crockery, personal photos, cards and letters, including some from Diana to Prince William and signed "mummy."

Burrell is said to be devastated by the allegations, and in a written statement, says the charges are false and that the police are simply pursuing what he calls a "trophy trial."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: But it's a trial nonetheless. And the witnesses expected over the next few weeks -- it's expected to last about four to six weeks -- are included: Princess Diana's sister, Lady Sarah McCorquodale. Her mother might testify against Paul Burrell. And there's even some press reports that the supermodel Claudia Schiffer will also appear on the dock, probably talking about a photograph that was also found in Paul Burrell's house, a photograph of her and Prince William, the young man, of course, who one day will be king.

But what it boils down to, whoever the witnesses are in the next four week, it boils down to the fact that they will be definitely talking about a case of who saw the butler.

TOOBIN: Right, indeed, Robyn. Robyn, one thing I don't understand about this case, is he perceived in Britain now has someone who really betrayed Princess Diana, or is he still seen as the rock who was by her side?

CURNOW: I think Britons are really, really confused. This was, after all, the man, one of the few people in the inner circle around Princess Diana that really hasn't sold her story or even sold the story of the royal family.

He has made a real effort to be very forthright, very British, I suppose, about his close relationship with Diana over the years. He hasn't made any money in telling the story. There have been no royals leakages, so to speak, from him. So, the Britons are a bit confused as to why this man, who was, as we know, her close confidant -- this is the man who actually helped prepare her body for burial. This is the man who was the only non-family member at her burial. Before her funeral, he spent the whole night praying by her body.

So the contrast, the juxtaposition of this image of this man who stole all these very intensely personal items from Diana and the other image of this man who really stood by her through -- in life and in death is very confusing. And I think we will be able to see the way the British public reacts to this as the trial goes on and we hear more details from the police and from the prosecution about what exactly he's accused of.

TOOBIN: And the confusing thing is, he has all these items, but he has not tried to sell them yet. However, the prosecution says he was just waiting until the time was right, when they presumably would still be very valuable. What do you make of that?

CURNOW: There were lots of suggestions from the prosecution in court today of that exact nature, basically suggestions -- as the prosecutor was going through the list, more than 300 items, he sort of went through and he just suggested as he was going through, "Just imagine the value of a CD, an Elton John CD signed by Diana."

Diana was in the habit of signing all her possessions. Maybe it was an old habit from boarding school days. But she signed all her CDs "Diana." Behind the photographs are signed "Diana," letters between her and Mother Teresa, between Diana and the prime minister, John Major. It's these sort of things that in future years, 20 years down the line, will be incredibly valuable.

Imagine just one of those on auction. To have more than 300 items, everything from Versace dresses to photos to letters, is a treasure trove, really.

TOOBIN: Robyn Curnow in London, thank you very much.

Next: Whatever happened to that cute Canadian couple from Salt Lake City?

Notes about tomorrow when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) TOOBIN: Today's trial in London is the latest in a string of courtroom action surrounding the late Princess Diana. In tonight's "Off the Radar," we look at a central figure in the investigation that followed the crash that killed her more than five years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: The car carrying Princess Diana on August 31, 1997 was hurtling along at more than 85 miles an hour. The driver's blood- alcohol level was three times the legal limit. Neither he nor Diana or Dodi Al Fayed was wearing a seat belt. Their deaths should be considered no surprise.

What was a surprise was that someone survived: Al Fayed's bodyguard, Trevor Rees-Jones, a British army veteran of anti-IRA surveillance and Operation Desert Storm. Rees-Jones was in the front seat wearing a seat belt. Badly scarred, badly injured, his face partially paralyzed, he recovered to hear that Al Fayed's father blamed him for the crash.

TREVOR REES-JONES, FORMER BODYGUARD FOR DODI AL FAYED: I have cooperated fully with the judge who is investigating the accident. And I told him all I know up to this present time. I may wish to ask to see the judge again in the future, but I have no intention of doing this at the moment. I would also like to add that I have got no intentions of speaking further on the subject publicly until after the court proceedings are finished.

ANNOUNCER: Was it his fault? And whatever happened to him? The answers when we return.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Was Dodi Al Fayed's bodyguard, Trevor Rees-Jones, to blame for the car crash that killed Princess Diana? A French inquest cleared him. But while he struggled to find another job in security, he ended up selling sneakers part-time, until releasing his book on the crash. In 2001, he became U.S. deputy head of security in a town in East Timor. He never regained his memories of the crash itself.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TOOBIN: Tomorrow: Remember the Olympics figure skating controversy, the Canadian pair that shared the gold? What have they been up to since Salt Lake City? Tomorrow, they'll join us.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": an hour with Regis Philbin, the man television viewers can't seem to get enough of.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us here at CNN, good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Sniper Still at Large Around Washington Area>