Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Sniper Suspects Charged; Senator Paul Wellstone Dies in Plane Crash
Aired October 25, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening.
Tonight: For millions of people in and around the nation's capital, life is returning to normal, this as Maryland officials announced that they are bringing six count of first-degree murder against the two people accused of making life anything but normal for the past three weeks, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo.
Now, Malvo had been identified as John Lee Malvo, but the identification was changed based on Jamaican birth records and information he provided to school authorities in Florida. Both will be tried as adults.
Also tonight: One of the most beloved men in the U.S. Senate has died in a plane crash, along with his wife, his daughter and staffers. We'll have more on that later.
But first, the latest on the case against the two now charged in the deadly sniper rampage.
Joining us from Washington with more on the investigation is CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Connie, as investigators continue to delve into the lives of Lee Malvo and John Allen Muhammad, more details continue to emerge.
Now, hopefully, when all the work is done, there will be a clearer understanding about why the two men took the lives that they did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): John Allen Muhammad converted to Islam 17 years ago, but only recently changed his last name from Williams to Muhammad. Friends and family say they noticed a definite change in him in the last year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something has happened in John's life that has created this because this is totally out of character. ARENA: Muhammad, according to investigators, made anti-American statements and sympathized with those who participated in the September 11 attacks when talking to his neighbors in Washington State. As a member of the Nation of Islam Organization, he provided security during the Million Man March in Washington in 1995. There is no evidence to support that he's a member of any organized terrorist group.
But sources say investigators are practicing due diligence, looking into whether Muhammad or his teenage counterpart had any ties to the Muslim terrorist group Jamaat ul-Fuqra, which investigators say has a U.S. presence. FBI agents are also questioning detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and elsewhere about the two men.
The investigative work is far from over. Muhammad used at least eight aliases. As for John Lee Malvo, his role is coming into sharper focus. Investigators say writing samples taken from Bellingham High School appear to match the writing in the letters left after two sniper attacks. And sources say investigators believe Malvo also may have been the shooter during some of the attacks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: Now, one major problem right now, Connie, is that neither man is offering much information to interrogators. In fact, Malvo even tried to escape from his interrogation room by climbing up into the ceiling ducts when investigators left the room for a little bit -- back to you.
CHUNG: Kelli, can you tell us more about the charges in Maryland?
ARENA: Well, Maryland state's attorney Doug Gansler today announced that he would like to bring six counts of first-degree murder, as you reported, against the two men, try Malvo against as an adults. And the charges against Muhammad would be death penalty eligible.
Well, Justice sources, though, say that Gansler was asked not to go ahead with that announcement. They say that the situation is still very fluid, that it's still possible that federal charges could be brought, even in Maryland. And the obvious focus, of course, is on the death penalty and which jurisdiction has the best chance of having a death penalty sentence stand.
CHUNG: Kelli, I was so surprised to hear you say that there's a possibility that Malvo may have done some of the shooting. Why do investigators believe that?
ARENA: Well, Connie, I have to underscore that they're far from a solid conclusion on this front.
But several sources say that there seemed to be two different styles of shooting used to kill several of the victims. If you remember, there were several direct shots to the head of some victims. Others were shot in the torso area. Now, of course, this could all be explained by just differences in distance or opportunity. But they do believe that -- at least some investigators believe this could be some sort of an apprentice-program relationship that the two had.
CHUNG: And can you tell us one last thing? Who's Nathaniel Osbourne and why is it that authorities want to talk to him?
ARENA: Well, what we know at this point that Osbourne is the co- owner of the Chevy Caprice where the two men were found and arrested. Now, a material witness arrest warrant has also been issued. His last known address is in Camden, New Jersey. But, of course, his location is not known.
And investigators have put out a plea for him to come forward. But FBI officials say that he is not a suspect, but, at this point, just wanted for questioning.
CHUNG: All right, Kelli Arena in Washington, such a good job. Thank you so much.
ARENA: Thank you.
CHUNG: Details are still emerging about both of the accused killers. Tonight, we're going to speak with family members of both of them, some of whom will be heard for the first time on national television.
Earlier, I spoke with a woman who helped raise John Allen Muhammad in Baton Rouge after his mother died, when he was only 3 years old, when he was still John Williams, a little boy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Yvonne Bradford joins me now from Baton Rouge.
Mrs. Bradford, how did you find out that your nephew had been arrested?
YVONNE BRADFORD, AUNT OF JOHN ALLEN MUHAMMAD: I had retired for the night. And my son was here watching television in the den, in the front of the house. And he came back to my room and knocked on the door and pushed the door open. And he said, "Mama, they know who the sniper is."
I said, "Who is it?"
He said, "Mama, it's John."
I said: "John? What John?"
He said, "Our John."
I said, "Oh, no."
He said, "Turn your television on."
So I reached and turned the television on. And as it came into focus, there was a picture being shown at that time of John. And I said, "Oh, no, it can't be." And I was shocked. I still can't believe -- I can't believe it. I'm hoping and praying that there has been some kind of mistake. I have been praying along and hoping that the shooting would stop. And my heart goes out to those families.
And it's just devastating to even think that one that I know so well would be accused of it.
CHUNG: When was the last time you saw him?
BRADFORD: I saw him a few months ago.
CHUNG: And how did he seem to you?
BRADFORD: He seemed fine.
CHUNG: Nothing unusual?
BRADFORD: No, there was nothing different about him.
He came in. And when he knocked on the door, rang the doorbell, I opened the door. And I hadn't seen him for a while. And he caressed me and started asking me, "How are you, auntie?"
And I told him, "I'm fine." So I said, "Come on in." And he came in. And we started talking. And the first of his conversation was, he started asking me about my children, who are along with him.
CHUNG: Did he tell you anything about himself? Did he seem angry to you? Did he talk about anything anti-American?
BRADFORD: Oh, no. No.
CHUNG: Now, he had John Malvo with him, didn't he? What did this young man seem like to you?
BRADFORD: Well, after John stepped on inside the door, he reached for him to come on in. And he said, "This is my son."
And I said: "Oh, I haven't met him. I didn't know you had him."
And he said, "This is John."
CHUNG: How did John Malvo strike you, Mrs. Bradford?
BRADFORD: He was quiet, very well-mannered. He answered me, "Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am," which is kind of unusual for a lot of our children today.
CHUNG: Mrs. Bradford, when John was growing up, did you find that he was at all violent? Or did he display any kind of behavior that you thought could have led to something so heinous, if indeed he was involved in this sniper spree?
BRADFORD: No, I've never known John to be a violent person. I enjoyed being around John because he was jolly. He joked and laughed all the time. And I can't conceive of him participating in anything as bizarre as the thing that we've seen played out on television this week and the weeks before.
I can't conceive that John would snipe out, just snuff out lives of human beings that way. It's just unbelievable to me.
CHUNG: Mrs. Bradford, if you had a chance to talk to your nephew, what would you say?
BRADFORD: I would say to John that I'm hurt. I'm very hurt to even know that he has found himself in a position that I hope would prove that he had no big part in what has transpired. And I want him to know that we are concerned about him. We are worried about him. I hope he's OK.
I want him to remember to pray. We grew up Baptist. The children grew up in the Baptist Church, along with us. And the same God that delivered him and took care of him in the loss of his mother and brought him into the loving care at home in his grandparents -- and we loved and cherished him then -- still lives. And if he would just look to him, that's what I'm hoping that he will do.
I want him to know that the family is concerned and the family loves him dearly.
CHUNG: All right, Yvonne Bradford, thank you so much for joining us and looking into John Muhammad's past.
BRADFORD: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: And still ahead, we'll meet the sister of Muhammad's first wife, who saw Muhammad in Baton Rouge as recently as this past summer, with Malvo.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As recently as this summer, Muhammad was seen by former family members in Baton Rouge, along with Malvo.
Joining me now to talk about Muhammad's life as a husband and a father is one of those former family members, Muhammad's former sister-in-law from his marriage to Carol, Sheron Norman, along with her husband, Ronald.
Thank you both for being with us. We appreciate it.
Tell me, Sheron, it must be so hard for Carol and her son, who -- you call him Len -- who is also John Muhammad's son. How is Carol, your sister?
SHERON NORMAN, FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW OF MUHAMMAD: Well, right now, she's very upset. And so we are kind of just keeping her quiet. And we are really worried about her health right now.
CHUNG: Sure. And how about the son? How about Len?
S. NORMAN: Len, he's dealing with t. He's coping pretty well right now.
CHUNG: How would you describe his relationship with his dad?
S. NORMAN: Well, as I said before, Len was taken by John when he went for a visit during the summer. And since then, the relationship has been very estranged.
CHUNG: And the reason?
S. NORMAN: It's because, when he was there, John decided he wasn't going to send him back. And he petitioned the court for custody of him.
CHUNG: He wanted to keep him...
S. NORMAN: He wanted to keep him.
CHUNG: ... rather than send him back to your sister Carol, his mom.
S. NORMAN: That's correct. And the courts gave him custody of Len. But we in Baton Rouge already had custody of Len.
CHUNG: I see.
S. NORMAN: And so we had to get lawyers to go out and take him to court to try to regain court -- in Washington and in Louisiana.
CHUNG: And, as far as John Muhammad's son is concerned, Len, he wanted to come back home to your sister.
S. NORMAN: He wanted to come back home to his mother. That's correct.
CHUNG: So, once their relationship became estranged, they just didn't see each other anymore.
S. NORMAN: No, they didn't.
CHUNG: Absolutely.
S. NORMAN: All right.
CHUNG: When was the last time you saw John Muhammad?
S. NORMAN: I saw him in July, when he made a surprise visit.
CHUNG: Any impressions about him? Did he seem different from the man you knew before?
S. NORMAN: No, he didn't. CHUNG: And how would you describe him?
S. NORMAN: Well, I didn't really talk to him, because, like I said, he and I, we had differences, so we didn't really socialize together.
CHUNG: Ron, I know you considered him to be rather arrogant. And, during this visit, you actually purposely did not get together with him. Why was that?
RONALD NORMAN, FORMER BROTHER-IN-LAW OF MUHAMMAD: Well, before, when him and my wife had conflict, I just felt it was better for me not to be around him.
CHUNG: So you didn't see him this time. This time, he did have with him Malvo.
S. NORMAN: That's correct.
CHUNG: You met him?
S. NORMAN: Yes. He said that that was his son.
CHUNG: What impressions did you have of Malvo?
S. NORMAN: Very quiet, very reserved, very mannerable. And he loved to play with the kids. He took them out. He played little games, read books to them. And he became really close with my niece.
CHUNG: What has your nephew -- this is John Muhammad's son Len -- has he said anything to you about John Muhammad's relationship with this young man, Malvo, who he's calling his son?
S. NORMAN: No, he didn't, because that was Len's first time meeting him also.
CHUNG: I see. Oh, he did meet him.
S. NORMAN: Len, yes. Len met him. The picture you see of him, that picture is cut off. Len is the other arm that's wrapped around the top. That's his hand. That's the three of them on that picture.
CHUNG: Well, was his son taken aback by the fact that his father was introducing this other young man as his son?
S. NORMAN: No, he really wasn't. It didn't matter to him.
CHUNG: Did John Muhammad ever show any tendency towards violence?
S. NORMAN: I'd never seen any. I heard, with his other wife, that he did, but...
CHUNG: That he was abusive.
S. NORMAN: He was abusive. But with my sister, no. CHUNG: Ron, did you see any violent tendencies in him?
R. NORMAN: He'd get angry about things, but no. Just like anyone else, he was very comparative. And he'd get angry about certain things, but no, I never...
CHUNG: Sheron, when you saw him last summer, was he talking at all about sympathizing with the 9/11 terrorists? The reason why I'm asking you that is because, according to our justice correspondent, that's what he was telling the neighbors in Tacoma, Washington, in Washington state.
S. NORMAN: No, he never said anything like that. I didn't hear him say anything like that. Let me rephrase that.
CHUNG: Any anti-American comments?
S. NORMAN: No, because he was strictly a soldier.
CHUNG: So you felt, in fact, that he was probably quite patriotic?
S. NORMAN: Yes. With his kids -- as I stated, with his kids, he would pretty much treat them like military, get them up early in the morning, do something like P.T., make them run so many miles in the morning and before breakfast.
CHUNG: So, as you look at this situation, what is your greatest hope? Because I obviously know that you didn't have a great relationship with him.
S. NORMAN: That's correct.
CHUNG: But, nonetheless, he is the father of your nephew and was married to your sister, even though they're not together anymore.
S. NORMAN: That's correct.
CHUNG: What are your thoughts?
S. NORMAN: My thoughts are that, as far as Malik (ph) goes...
CHUNG: And Malik is Malvo.
S. NORMAN: Malvo.
CHUNG: That's the name he gave him when he introduced him to you.
S. NORMAN: When he introduced him to the family, he introduced him as Malik, not Lee.
But I was really concerned about the dietary regimen that he had him on, and, as I said, honey and crackers and dietary supplements. And that's the only thing he had to eat all day. And you can tell this child was really hungry. (CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Did you get any sense that he was dominating him?
S. NORMAN: Yes. And it was the same thing that he did to my nephew when he had him up in Tacoma, Washington.
CHUNG: I see.
S. NORMAN: He would run him and then feed him the ramen noodles. And that would be the only thing he would have all day.
CHUNG: All right, well, I thank you so much for being with us, Sheron.
And, Ron, thank you. We appreciate it.
Still ahead: Yesterday, we knew him as John Lee Malvo. Today, we've learned that he's really Lee Boyd Malvo. What do we know about him? We'll meet his father and his half-brother in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: When you consider that the big tip in this case, telling police to look at a Montgomery, Alabama, shooting, allegedly came from one of the two accused snipers, it's really hard to remember how crafty, even a genius, people kept speculating that the sniper must be. After all, the shootings went on for three weeks, with no suspects and few clues.
CNN investigative correspondent Art Harris considers the question: Just how smart were they?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the beginning, there were just bullets coming out of nowhere and a climbing body count. To law enforcement's top criminal minds, it looked like a brilliant serial killer at first -- elusive, calculating, able to vanish without a trace. It was baffling, experts agreed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's willing to do anything to prove no one can control him.
HARRIS: Was it a spree killer, or a classic serial killer driven by inner urges, or maybe a rare combination of both?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: He doesn't want on par with them. He wants to think he's above them and controlling them, and so -- but he wants to start some kind of communication so he can have fun with this.
HARRIS: Was it possible they were dealing with a killer or killers who fit no pattern, no classic profile, some new strain of evil? Then came the shooting at the Ponderosa steak house in Ashland, Virginia, where investigators found a note demanding $10 million.
(on camera): CNN has learned this was one of the key turning points, prompting the task force to take a hard look at just how crafty the sniper really was. Just how smart was his demand that money be wired to a bank account tied to a stolen ATM card, a transaction that could pinpoint his location and maybe photograph his face?
(voice-over): Experts say classic serial killers are driven by inner urges, not cash.
Then came his demand to talk to the task force using a pay phone that could be tapped and staked out by police. Another clue to make them question they were dealing with a mastermind.
As it turns out, the suspect's car had been spotted in the Washington/Baltimore area, and the tag run several times during the investigation. And the car was even photographed after running a red light. But the car wasn't connected, sources say, until after police got their big break.
One suspect had left a fingerprint at the scene of a Montgomery, Alabama murder. While the killing was cold blooded, sources say an emerging motive for murder remains unclear and appears to more mundane than purely pathological, like money and maybe cheap thrills.
One law enforcement source calls the alleged killer or killers "dumb with a lot of dumb luck."
Art Harris, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: We are still learning more about both of the accused snipers. Muhammad's background came to light yesterday, in part because of his military service. Malvo, however, is a Jamaican citizen and is less known. That is starting to change, however.
Earlier, I spoke with Lee Boyd Malvo's father and his half- brother in an interview from Jamaica.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now are Leslie Malvo and his son Rohan.
Thank you so much for being with us.
First, Mr. Leslie Malvo, had your son ever been in trouble before?
LESLIE MALVO, FATHER OF LEE BOYD MALVO: No. No. No. No. No.
CHUNG: Do you know if your son knew how to shoot a gun?
L. MALVO: No.
CHUNG: Sir, when was the last time you saw your son?
L. MALVO: Four year ago. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) go to the street and buy some ice cream and sit and talk and laugh. And everything was all right.
CHUNG: Everything was all right. All you did was sit around and talk? Did you feel that your son loved you?
L. MALVO: Yes. Yes. Yes. I loved him and he loved me very much.
CHUNG: Rohan, can you tell us, how did you find out that your brother was arrested?
ROHAN MALVO, HALF-BROTHER OF LEE BOYD MALVO: The morning in the arrest, my girlfriend called me and told me there is a Malvo who got arrested. And she said, "I wonder if it's" my family. And I said: "I don't know. Who to tell?"
And, shortly after that, I saw the news. And I've been hearing it and listening and everything. And then the picture came up. And I said it looks like my brother, because we have this identity we cannot hide.
CHUNG: Did you think that he was capable of doing such a thing?
R. MALVO: No. He's not capable of doing such a thing.
CHUNG: Did you spend time together growing up?
R. MALVO: Yes. Much younger. My brother used to love to read. He loved to do his homework. Sit down and we talk a lot, and time for school and homework.
CHUNG: Can you tell me, when was the last time you saw him?
R. MALVO: At the age of 12 year old. That's the last time I saw him.
CHUNG: If you had a chance to say something to him, what would you say?
R. MALVO: I still love him. He's my brother, in spite of whatever he's done that is wrong, if he's done it. But I'm sorry. I'm really sorry for whatever happened. And I still love him. He's my brother. I will always love him.
CHUNG: Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for being with us.
L. MALVO: OK.
R. MALVO: OK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Up next: If you think the manhunt for the snipers was complicated, well, wait until you hear about the legal case. Remember these two words: seven jurisdictions.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A lot of issues are clashing in the sniper case. A lot of jurisdictions are involved. Death penalty status varies from state to state. And Malvo is a juvenile.
So, joining us to help us look ahead and see how all of this plays out, our favorite legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, this really is complicated.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It sure is.
CHUNG: Now, the federal prosecutors were quite upset with the Maryland prosecutors, because the Maryland prosecutors plowed forward. Can you explain why are the feds upset and whether or not Maryland can proceed?
TOOBIN: Well, the reason they're upset is, because so many jurisdictions are involved, what really needs to be done is, everybody needs to sit down together and make a plan for how to prosecute these people, because, when you kill people or are alleged to kill people in three different states, several counties within Maryland, several counties within Virginia, each county has the right -- and, in some respects, the obligation -- to prosecute murders that take place in their jurisdiction.
Montgomery County, understandably, wants to go first. There are six murders there. The investigation was headquartered there. But the federal government usually takes a lead role when there are joint prosecutions. And they wanted this to go in a somewhat more organized process. There's no requirement that Maryland had to go forward today. The statute of limitations isn't running. So, you can see why their noses might be a little out of joint. But it will probably be worked out in the relatively near future.
CHUNG: Well, do you expect the feds to file charges?
TOOBIN: I really don't, because what's -- you can only prosecute in federal court violations of federal law. Murder, plain old murder, is not a federal crime. Federal crime tends to be white-collar crime, organized crime.
And shooting someone in the street is a state crime. So it's not clear to me how you could shoehorn this into federal court. The federal jurisdiction has expanded in recent years, so it might be possible, but it really seems more likely to belong in state court.
CHUNG: So, do you expect the other jurisdictions now to hurry up and get their paperwork done, and, on Monday, suddenly we find Virginia filing charges?
TOOBIN: It sure seems that way. Here you had two -- you had the Alabama charges filed today. You had the Maryland prosecutor saying he was going to file charges today. They do seem to be rushing. Just because they filed charges doesn't mean they get to go first. But you can see these prosecutors chomping at the bit. And what really needs to be done is, they need to have some sort of summit meeting that says, OK, this is how this is going to go.
But the thing that is tricky about this is, you always want to go first with your strongest case. You know, this is so new, they don't really know at this point which is the strongest case. So it's really going to be a tricky situation.
CHUNG: Well, if they don't get together and decide collectively, who then does decide?
TOOBIN: It's really hard to know. I am unaware of any situation where prosecutors simply couldn't decide. Ultimately, I suppose, it would go before some court, depending on who has physical possession of the two defendants.
Now they are in federal custody in Baltimore. If there was somehow a clash, I guess a federal judge in Baltimore would resolve it. But I think, given the stakes involved, given the seriousness of these crimes, the prosecutors are really going to feel obligated not to have a spitting contest among each other and concentrate on the main case.
CHUNG: All right, let's take another issue, the fact that Malvo, the younger one, is a juvenile. And, in Maryland, the prosecutor, Douglas Gansler, said that he would be tried as an adult.
TOOBIN: Right.
CHUNG: However, that means he is not eligible for the death penalty, because he's a juvenile.
TOOBIN: Right.
CHUNG: Can you clear this up? Help us figure out what is going on here, because there are different death penalty laws in different states.
TOOBIN: In each state.
He's 17. Under Maryland law, you cannot be executed if you commit the crime when you are under 18. So, he is clearly not eligible for the death penalty in Maryland. In Virginia, in Alabama, he is eligible for the death penalty, if he is found guilty. Now, that's not to say he will get it.
And, keep in mind, one of the interesting things here is, Maryland and Virginia represent almost opposite polls in the death penalty in the United States. Virginia is No. 2 in the entire country, behind Texas, in executing people. They've executed more than 80 people since 1976. Maryland has only executed four. So, if what people really care about is executing these people, Virginia is probably the much more likely place they are going to get it.
CHUNG: All right, I have so many more questions for you, Jeffrey, but we have to go.
TOOBIN: This case, I have a feeling, will be around for a while.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Thank you.
When we come back, a time of grief: America's most liberal senator and the love of his life dead in a plane crash today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone, who died in a plane crash today, left behind not just a political legacy, but two sons, six grandchildren, hundreds of people who knew and loved him, and untold numbers of others who never met him, but respected and admired him for his many stands on principle. Also on board the small plane that went down in Northern Minnesota today: seven others, including Wellstone's wife and daughter.
CNN's Bill Delaney has the latest on Wellstone's death and life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a far northeastern reach of the state he'd adopted and loved, Minnesota, Senator Paul Wellstone's twin engine 11-seat A-100 crashed in freezing rain and light snow; besides the senator, a one-time college professor raised in Virginia, Sheila, his wife and close adviser, also lost. And the Wellstones' daughter, Marcia, three campaign staffers and two pilots died, too.
Wellstone leaves two sons, six grandchildren. Tributes for perhaps the Senate's most liberal member came from all sides of the political spectrum.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Paul Wellstone was a man of deep convictions. He was a plainspoken fellow who did his best for his state and for his country. May the good lord bless those who grieve.
GOV. JESSE VENTURA (I), MINNESOTA: His dedication to his state and nation was profound. His energy, his passion and his love of people were overwhelming.
SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: Paul Wellstone was my closest friend in the Senate. He was the most principled public servant I've ever known. Paul truly had the courage of his convictions. And his convictions were based in the principles of hope and compassion.
DELANEY: A team from the National Transportation Safety Board left Washington to investigate the tragedy. One mystery: why, seven miles out from Eveleth Virginia Municipal Airport, the King Air aircraft reported no problems, only to crash two miles from the airport, a tragedy surprisingly common among politicians.
(on camera): Every politician who manages to scale heights of power then must spend endless hours in the air to stay there, flying home, junkets overseas, campaigning. Since 1972, 13 major U.S. politicians died in plane crashes.
Bill Delaney, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Tonight, the mourners include David and Mark Wellstone. They have lost their father, their mother and their only sister.
Also in mourning: Josh Syrjamaki, Wellstone's deputy campaign manager, who's worked for Wellstone for 10 years. And he joins us from the steps of the state Capitol in St. Paul, where a candlelight vigil was just held.
Thank you, Josh, for being with us. We appreciate it.
I know that you started working for the senator right out of college and then you stuck with him for 10 years. He has to have been quite a special man.
JOSH SYRJAMAKI, WELLSTONE DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: He was a phenomenal man.
A couple of weeks after I graduated from college, I met him at the state fair. I didn't know him. And we shook hands and talked briefly. And I immediately walked into his campaign booth at the state fair and signed up to do an internship. And I've been with him ever since.
CHUNG: You know, when I saw Tom Harkin breaking down, it just broke my heart. There have been so many people who have come forward today and told their wonderful stories about him.
As I understand it, he had a wonderful relationship with his family. His wife even worked with him?
SYRJAMAKI: Yes.
He had many passions in life. And one of his passions was politics. And he did that with his family. Another passion in his life was wrestling. And he enjoyed that with his family. And a third passion in his life was his family.
CHUNG: And didn't his sons pick up wrestling as well?
SYRJAMAKI: Yes. Senator Wellstone was a championship wrestler in college at North Carolina. And both of his sons wrestled as well. And they enjoyed that tremendously together. And it really -- it was one of the bonds that kept their family and keeps their family together.
CHUNG: As I understand it, wrestling was such a huge part of his life, because he was not a very tall man. And I guess the best word to describe him was scrappy. And wrestling gave him that oomph. And it became such a huge part of his life. But in politics as well, he was a fighter.
SYRJAMAKI: He was a fighter. And there's no about it. A part of that came from his wrestling. And it stuck with him every day. And he talked about wrestling often. And he would tell stories.
And one quick story: When I graduated from college and I came to work as an intern with him, he had just been elected United States senator, had been there for nine months. And he and I were talking. I had just a tremendous honor to give him a ride one day. And he invited me -- he didn't know me from Adam -- and he invited to come to the state high school wrestling tournament with him. And so I enjoyed a wrestling tournament with Paul and Sheila Wellstone right after -- just right after college.
And he was just a gifted man who loved to engage young people and get them involved in politics.
CHUNG: What was he like in private?
SYRJAMAKI: He had a tremendous sense of humor. I have flown around the state with him any number of times and have flown into that airport with him any number of times.
And often, after a long day of campaigning or a long day of traveling around the state to meet with his constituents -- which he loved to do -- at the end of the day, especially, he would just have them rolling in the aisles laughing. And he would crack the best jokes. And he had a tremendous skill to get people laughing and enjoying life.
CHUNG: Josh Syrjamaki, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
SYRJAMAKI: You're welcome.
And can I just -- can I just say one last thing?
CHUNG: Yes.
SYRJAMAKI: And that is, we lost a lot of -- several good friends today. And I just -- our No. 1 priority is to send our love and our support to all the families who have lost loved ones today. And we're just grieving. So, thank you.
CHUNG: Well, I so appreciate that you took time out to talk to us, because we wanted to find a way to remember him. Thank you so much.
SYRJAMAKI: You're welcome. CHUNG: We are also going to go now to CNN's INSIDE POLITICS anchor, Judy Woodruff, for some final thoughts about Senator Wellstone.
Judy, I know that you knew him, not only personally, but professionally and personally. Tell us about him.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: I did, Connie. I knew him better professionally -- certainly not as well as Josh, who worked with him so closely for 10 years.
But he was what you've been hearing all day long from people who knew him: the happy warrior. Even Hubert Humphrey, who was the original happy warrior, said that about Paul Wellstone. He was someone who brought great spirit, and not just humor, but great spirit, vigor, energy and passion. That's the word that we've heard over and over again today about Paul Wellstone.
He was a liberal. He was proud to be a liberal. He cared about the causes that led to help for the disadvantaged. He believed in an activist government, a government that reached out and helped those who couldn't help themselves, whether it was through health care, education. He himself had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in recent years. So he was fighting his own personal medical battles.
He had had a brother with mental illness, Connie. He fought very hard in Senate for what's called mental health parity, so that insurance companies would allow for treatment for those with mental illness the same as those with physical illness.
So, he had a number of things that he cared deeply about. He was on the Foreign Relations Committee, deeply involved. I know Colin Powell at the State Department put out a personal statement today about the loss of Senator Wellstone. So he touched many lives.
CHUNG: Judy, he was in a tight race for reelection. So what's going to happen in that race?
WOODRUFF: Very good question, Connie.
Of course, all of Minnesota are in mourning tonight. But, privately, Democrats who know that they now have the ability -- it's called not just the Democratic Party, but the Democratic Farmer Labor Party in the state of Minnesota -- they legally have the ability now to put someone else on the ballot up until four days before the election. Of course, right now, we're 11 days before the November 5 election.
They can put someone else on the ballot. Today, there were quiet, private discussions, especially among labor leaders in Minnesota, about Walter Mondale, the former vice president who, as you know, ran for president in 1984, had served in the Senate, later served as ambassador to Japan. That is one name.
Democrats also, we're told, would like to speak with Senator Wellstone's older son David, who we are told is in his late 30s. I'm not sure of his exact age. But, at this point, Democrats are saying they want to give the family time, understandably, private time to be alone and with loved ones before they move on. But you can be assured that this is a top priority.
Any time there's a change in a Senate seat like this, it's important. But in a year when the Senate is literally hanging in the balance -- there's a one-seat Democratic majority, a number of very close, hard-fought races around the country -- and it matters a lot, not just personally, of course, with the loss of Paul Wellstone. But it will matter in terms of policy, in terms of who replaces him.
CHUNG: Judy, there were so many emotional statements and news conferences. Have you ever seen anything like this?
WOODRUFF: Well, when someone -- someone pointed out it had been, I guess, 15 years since John Heinz -- that was the last time a sitting United States senator died in a plane crash.
We lose public servants from time to time. But I think there's something especially dramatic about losing someone who was 58 years old and still so full of vigor and energy and in the middle of a hard- fought campaign. Paul Wellstone came into this year, Connie, considered the most vulnerable Democratic senator in the United States Senate up for reelection, after serving two terms.
And there he was out on the campaign trail. You've shown a lot of these pictures. He was out there. He was shaking hands. You know, he fought his way back to a point where the political pundits, the experts, were saying he had a pretty good shot to beat off this challenge by the mayor of Minneapolis.
And the other thing that has made this race so interesting is, the White House was personally involved. The president's chief political adviser, Karl Rove, personally recruited Norm Coleman, the former mayor of Minneapolis, to run, something that Tim Pawlenty, another Republican in Minnesota, had wanted to do. But Karl Rove got in there and said, "No, we want Norm Coleman to run" -- so interest from the White House on.
This was something a lot of people were paying a lot of attention to. But you're absolutely right. The feelings have come out on both sides, a great loss. A light has gone out in the United States Senate today.
CHUNG: Judy Woodruff, we are just so gratified that you could take some time and spend it with us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much.
WOODRUFF: Thanks, Connie.
CHUNG: All right.
And we'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: Coming up on Monday: the first national television interview with the mother of Derek and Alex King, who were convicted of killing their father.
Join "LARRY KING" next.
Have a great weekend.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Plane Crash>
Aired October 25, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening.
Tonight: For millions of people in and around the nation's capital, life is returning to normal, this as Maryland officials announced that they are bringing six count of first-degree murder against the two people accused of making life anything but normal for the past three weeks, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo.
Now, Malvo had been identified as John Lee Malvo, but the identification was changed based on Jamaican birth records and information he provided to school authorities in Florida. Both will be tried as adults.
Also tonight: One of the most beloved men in the U.S. Senate has died in a plane crash, along with his wife, his daughter and staffers. We'll have more on that later.
But first, the latest on the case against the two now charged in the deadly sniper rampage.
Joining us from Washington with more on the investigation is CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Connie, as investigators continue to delve into the lives of Lee Malvo and John Allen Muhammad, more details continue to emerge.
Now, hopefully, when all the work is done, there will be a clearer understanding about why the two men took the lives that they did.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): John Allen Muhammad converted to Islam 17 years ago, but only recently changed his last name from Williams to Muhammad. Friends and family say they noticed a definite change in him in the last year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something has happened in John's life that has created this because this is totally out of character. ARENA: Muhammad, according to investigators, made anti-American statements and sympathized with those who participated in the September 11 attacks when talking to his neighbors in Washington State. As a member of the Nation of Islam Organization, he provided security during the Million Man March in Washington in 1995. There is no evidence to support that he's a member of any organized terrorist group.
But sources say investigators are practicing due diligence, looking into whether Muhammad or his teenage counterpart had any ties to the Muslim terrorist group Jamaat ul-Fuqra, which investigators say has a U.S. presence. FBI agents are also questioning detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and elsewhere about the two men.
The investigative work is far from over. Muhammad used at least eight aliases. As for John Lee Malvo, his role is coming into sharper focus. Investigators say writing samples taken from Bellingham High School appear to match the writing in the letters left after two sniper attacks. And sources say investigators believe Malvo also may have been the shooter during some of the attacks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: Now, one major problem right now, Connie, is that neither man is offering much information to interrogators. In fact, Malvo even tried to escape from his interrogation room by climbing up into the ceiling ducts when investigators left the room for a little bit -- back to you.
CHUNG: Kelli, can you tell us more about the charges in Maryland?
ARENA: Well, Maryland state's attorney Doug Gansler today announced that he would like to bring six counts of first-degree murder, as you reported, against the two men, try Malvo against as an adults. And the charges against Muhammad would be death penalty eligible.
Well, Justice sources, though, say that Gansler was asked not to go ahead with that announcement. They say that the situation is still very fluid, that it's still possible that federal charges could be brought, even in Maryland. And the obvious focus, of course, is on the death penalty and which jurisdiction has the best chance of having a death penalty sentence stand.
CHUNG: Kelli, I was so surprised to hear you say that there's a possibility that Malvo may have done some of the shooting. Why do investigators believe that?
ARENA: Well, Connie, I have to underscore that they're far from a solid conclusion on this front.
But several sources say that there seemed to be two different styles of shooting used to kill several of the victims. If you remember, there were several direct shots to the head of some victims. Others were shot in the torso area. Now, of course, this could all be explained by just differences in distance or opportunity. But they do believe that -- at least some investigators believe this could be some sort of an apprentice-program relationship that the two had.
CHUNG: And can you tell us one last thing? Who's Nathaniel Osbourne and why is it that authorities want to talk to him?
ARENA: Well, what we know at this point that Osbourne is the co- owner of the Chevy Caprice where the two men were found and arrested. Now, a material witness arrest warrant has also been issued. His last known address is in Camden, New Jersey. But, of course, his location is not known.
And investigators have put out a plea for him to come forward. But FBI officials say that he is not a suspect, but, at this point, just wanted for questioning.
CHUNG: All right, Kelli Arena in Washington, such a good job. Thank you so much.
ARENA: Thank you.
CHUNG: Details are still emerging about both of the accused killers. Tonight, we're going to speak with family members of both of them, some of whom will be heard for the first time on national television.
Earlier, I spoke with a woman who helped raise John Allen Muhammad in Baton Rouge after his mother died, when he was only 3 years old, when he was still John Williams, a little boy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Yvonne Bradford joins me now from Baton Rouge.
Mrs. Bradford, how did you find out that your nephew had been arrested?
YVONNE BRADFORD, AUNT OF JOHN ALLEN MUHAMMAD: I had retired for the night. And my son was here watching television in the den, in the front of the house. And he came back to my room and knocked on the door and pushed the door open. And he said, "Mama, they know who the sniper is."
I said, "Who is it?"
He said, "Mama, it's John."
I said: "John? What John?"
He said, "Our John."
I said, "Oh, no."
He said, "Turn your television on."
So I reached and turned the television on. And as it came into focus, there was a picture being shown at that time of John. And I said, "Oh, no, it can't be." And I was shocked. I still can't believe -- I can't believe it. I'm hoping and praying that there has been some kind of mistake. I have been praying along and hoping that the shooting would stop. And my heart goes out to those families.
And it's just devastating to even think that one that I know so well would be accused of it.
CHUNG: When was the last time you saw him?
BRADFORD: I saw him a few months ago.
CHUNG: And how did he seem to you?
BRADFORD: He seemed fine.
CHUNG: Nothing unusual?
BRADFORD: No, there was nothing different about him.
He came in. And when he knocked on the door, rang the doorbell, I opened the door. And I hadn't seen him for a while. And he caressed me and started asking me, "How are you, auntie?"
And I told him, "I'm fine." So I said, "Come on in." And he came in. And we started talking. And the first of his conversation was, he started asking me about my children, who are along with him.
CHUNG: Did he tell you anything about himself? Did he seem angry to you? Did he talk about anything anti-American?
BRADFORD: Oh, no. No.
CHUNG: Now, he had John Malvo with him, didn't he? What did this young man seem like to you?
BRADFORD: Well, after John stepped on inside the door, he reached for him to come on in. And he said, "This is my son."
And I said: "Oh, I haven't met him. I didn't know you had him."
And he said, "This is John."
CHUNG: How did John Malvo strike you, Mrs. Bradford?
BRADFORD: He was quiet, very well-mannered. He answered me, "Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am," which is kind of unusual for a lot of our children today.
CHUNG: Mrs. Bradford, when John was growing up, did you find that he was at all violent? Or did he display any kind of behavior that you thought could have led to something so heinous, if indeed he was involved in this sniper spree?
BRADFORD: No, I've never known John to be a violent person. I enjoyed being around John because he was jolly. He joked and laughed all the time. And I can't conceive of him participating in anything as bizarre as the thing that we've seen played out on television this week and the weeks before.
I can't conceive that John would snipe out, just snuff out lives of human beings that way. It's just unbelievable to me.
CHUNG: Mrs. Bradford, if you had a chance to talk to your nephew, what would you say?
BRADFORD: I would say to John that I'm hurt. I'm very hurt to even know that he has found himself in a position that I hope would prove that he had no big part in what has transpired. And I want him to know that we are concerned about him. We are worried about him. I hope he's OK.
I want him to remember to pray. We grew up Baptist. The children grew up in the Baptist Church, along with us. And the same God that delivered him and took care of him in the loss of his mother and brought him into the loving care at home in his grandparents -- and we loved and cherished him then -- still lives. And if he would just look to him, that's what I'm hoping that he will do.
I want him to know that the family is concerned and the family loves him dearly.
CHUNG: All right, Yvonne Bradford, thank you so much for joining us and looking into John Muhammad's past.
BRADFORD: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: And still ahead, we'll meet the sister of Muhammad's first wife, who saw Muhammad in Baton Rouge as recently as this past summer, with Malvo.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: As recently as this summer, Muhammad was seen by former family members in Baton Rouge, along with Malvo.
Joining me now to talk about Muhammad's life as a husband and a father is one of those former family members, Muhammad's former sister-in-law from his marriage to Carol, Sheron Norman, along with her husband, Ronald.
Thank you both for being with us. We appreciate it.
Tell me, Sheron, it must be so hard for Carol and her son, who -- you call him Len -- who is also John Muhammad's son. How is Carol, your sister?
SHERON NORMAN, FORMER SISTER-IN-LAW OF MUHAMMAD: Well, right now, she's very upset. And so we are kind of just keeping her quiet. And we are really worried about her health right now.
CHUNG: Sure. And how about the son? How about Len?
S. NORMAN: Len, he's dealing with t. He's coping pretty well right now.
CHUNG: How would you describe his relationship with his dad?
S. NORMAN: Well, as I said before, Len was taken by John when he went for a visit during the summer. And since then, the relationship has been very estranged.
CHUNG: And the reason?
S. NORMAN: It's because, when he was there, John decided he wasn't going to send him back. And he petitioned the court for custody of him.
CHUNG: He wanted to keep him...
S. NORMAN: He wanted to keep him.
CHUNG: ... rather than send him back to your sister Carol, his mom.
S. NORMAN: That's correct. And the courts gave him custody of Len. But we in Baton Rouge already had custody of Len.
CHUNG: I see.
S. NORMAN: And so we had to get lawyers to go out and take him to court to try to regain court -- in Washington and in Louisiana.
CHUNG: And, as far as John Muhammad's son is concerned, Len, he wanted to come back home to your sister.
S. NORMAN: He wanted to come back home to his mother. That's correct.
CHUNG: So, once their relationship became estranged, they just didn't see each other anymore.
S. NORMAN: No, they didn't.
CHUNG: Absolutely.
S. NORMAN: All right.
CHUNG: When was the last time you saw John Muhammad?
S. NORMAN: I saw him in July, when he made a surprise visit.
CHUNG: Any impressions about him? Did he seem different from the man you knew before?
S. NORMAN: No, he didn't. CHUNG: And how would you describe him?
S. NORMAN: Well, I didn't really talk to him, because, like I said, he and I, we had differences, so we didn't really socialize together.
CHUNG: Ron, I know you considered him to be rather arrogant. And, during this visit, you actually purposely did not get together with him. Why was that?
RONALD NORMAN, FORMER BROTHER-IN-LAW OF MUHAMMAD: Well, before, when him and my wife had conflict, I just felt it was better for me not to be around him.
CHUNG: So you didn't see him this time. This time, he did have with him Malvo.
S. NORMAN: That's correct.
CHUNG: You met him?
S. NORMAN: Yes. He said that that was his son.
CHUNG: What impressions did you have of Malvo?
S. NORMAN: Very quiet, very reserved, very mannerable. And he loved to play with the kids. He took them out. He played little games, read books to them. And he became really close with my niece.
CHUNG: What has your nephew -- this is John Muhammad's son Len -- has he said anything to you about John Muhammad's relationship with this young man, Malvo, who he's calling his son?
S. NORMAN: No, he didn't, because that was Len's first time meeting him also.
CHUNG: I see. Oh, he did meet him.
S. NORMAN: Len, yes. Len met him. The picture you see of him, that picture is cut off. Len is the other arm that's wrapped around the top. That's his hand. That's the three of them on that picture.
CHUNG: Well, was his son taken aback by the fact that his father was introducing this other young man as his son?
S. NORMAN: No, he really wasn't. It didn't matter to him.
CHUNG: Did John Muhammad ever show any tendency towards violence?
S. NORMAN: I'd never seen any. I heard, with his other wife, that he did, but...
CHUNG: That he was abusive.
S. NORMAN: He was abusive. But with my sister, no. CHUNG: Ron, did you see any violent tendencies in him?
R. NORMAN: He'd get angry about things, but no. Just like anyone else, he was very comparative. And he'd get angry about certain things, but no, I never...
CHUNG: Sheron, when you saw him last summer, was he talking at all about sympathizing with the 9/11 terrorists? The reason why I'm asking you that is because, according to our justice correspondent, that's what he was telling the neighbors in Tacoma, Washington, in Washington state.
S. NORMAN: No, he never said anything like that. I didn't hear him say anything like that. Let me rephrase that.
CHUNG: Any anti-American comments?
S. NORMAN: No, because he was strictly a soldier.
CHUNG: So you felt, in fact, that he was probably quite patriotic?
S. NORMAN: Yes. With his kids -- as I stated, with his kids, he would pretty much treat them like military, get them up early in the morning, do something like P.T., make them run so many miles in the morning and before breakfast.
CHUNG: So, as you look at this situation, what is your greatest hope? Because I obviously know that you didn't have a great relationship with him.
S. NORMAN: That's correct.
CHUNG: But, nonetheless, he is the father of your nephew and was married to your sister, even though they're not together anymore.
S. NORMAN: That's correct.
CHUNG: What are your thoughts?
S. NORMAN: My thoughts are that, as far as Malik (ph) goes...
CHUNG: And Malik is Malvo.
S. NORMAN: Malvo.
CHUNG: That's the name he gave him when he introduced him to you.
S. NORMAN: When he introduced him to the family, he introduced him as Malik, not Lee.
But I was really concerned about the dietary regimen that he had him on, and, as I said, honey and crackers and dietary supplements. And that's the only thing he had to eat all day. And you can tell this child was really hungry. (CROSSTALK)
CHUNG: Did you get any sense that he was dominating him?
S. NORMAN: Yes. And it was the same thing that he did to my nephew when he had him up in Tacoma, Washington.
CHUNG: I see.
S. NORMAN: He would run him and then feed him the ramen noodles. And that would be the only thing he would have all day.
CHUNG: All right, well, I thank you so much for being with us, Sheron.
And, Ron, thank you. We appreciate it.
Still ahead: Yesterday, we knew him as John Lee Malvo. Today, we've learned that he's really Lee Boyd Malvo. What do we know about him? We'll meet his father and his half-brother in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: When you consider that the big tip in this case, telling police to look at a Montgomery, Alabama, shooting, allegedly came from one of the two accused snipers, it's really hard to remember how crafty, even a genius, people kept speculating that the sniper must be. After all, the shootings went on for three weeks, with no suspects and few clues.
CNN investigative correspondent Art Harris considers the question: Just how smart were they?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ART HARRIS, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the beginning, there were just bullets coming out of nowhere and a climbing body count. To law enforcement's top criminal minds, it looked like a brilliant serial killer at first -- elusive, calculating, able to vanish without a trace. It was baffling, experts agreed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's willing to do anything to prove no one can control him.
HARRIS: Was it a spree killer, or a classic serial killer driven by inner urges, or maybe a rare combination of both?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: He doesn't want on par with them. He wants to think he's above them and controlling them, and so -- but he wants to start some kind of communication so he can have fun with this.
HARRIS: Was it possible they were dealing with a killer or killers who fit no pattern, no classic profile, some new strain of evil? Then came the shooting at the Ponderosa steak house in Ashland, Virginia, where investigators found a note demanding $10 million.
(on camera): CNN has learned this was one of the key turning points, prompting the task force to take a hard look at just how crafty the sniper really was. Just how smart was his demand that money be wired to a bank account tied to a stolen ATM card, a transaction that could pinpoint his location and maybe photograph his face?
(voice-over): Experts say classic serial killers are driven by inner urges, not cash.
Then came his demand to talk to the task force using a pay phone that could be tapped and staked out by police. Another clue to make them question they were dealing with a mastermind.
As it turns out, the suspect's car had been spotted in the Washington/Baltimore area, and the tag run several times during the investigation. And the car was even photographed after running a red light. But the car wasn't connected, sources say, until after police got their big break.
One suspect had left a fingerprint at the scene of a Montgomery, Alabama murder. While the killing was cold blooded, sources say an emerging motive for murder remains unclear and appears to more mundane than purely pathological, like money and maybe cheap thrills.
One law enforcement source calls the alleged killer or killers "dumb with a lot of dumb luck."
Art Harris, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: We are still learning more about both of the accused snipers. Muhammad's background came to light yesterday, in part because of his military service. Malvo, however, is a Jamaican citizen and is less known. That is starting to change, however.
Earlier, I spoke with Lee Boyd Malvo's father and his half- brother in an interview from Jamaica.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining me now are Leslie Malvo and his son Rohan.
Thank you so much for being with us.
First, Mr. Leslie Malvo, had your son ever been in trouble before?
LESLIE MALVO, FATHER OF LEE BOYD MALVO: No. No. No. No. No.
CHUNG: Do you know if your son knew how to shoot a gun?
L. MALVO: No.
CHUNG: Sir, when was the last time you saw your son?
L. MALVO: Four year ago. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) go to the street and buy some ice cream and sit and talk and laugh. And everything was all right.
CHUNG: Everything was all right. All you did was sit around and talk? Did you feel that your son loved you?
L. MALVO: Yes. Yes. Yes. I loved him and he loved me very much.
CHUNG: Rohan, can you tell us, how did you find out that your brother was arrested?
ROHAN MALVO, HALF-BROTHER OF LEE BOYD MALVO: The morning in the arrest, my girlfriend called me and told me there is a Malvo who got arrested. And she said, "I wonder if it's" my family. And I said: "I don't know. Who to tell?"
And, shortly after that, I saw the news. And I've been hearing it and listening and everything. And then the picture came up. And I said it looks like my brother, because we have this identity we cannot hide.
CHUNG: Did you think that he was capable of doing such a thing?
R. MALVO: No. He's not capable of doing such a thing.
CHUNG: Did you spend time together growing up?
R. MALVO: Yes. Much younger. My brother used to love to read. He loved to do his homework. Sit down and we talk a lot, and time for school and homework.
CHUNG: Can you tell me, when was the last time you saw him?
R. MALVO: At the age of 12 year old. That's the last time I saw him.
CHUNG: If you had a chance to say something to him, what would you say?
R. MALVO: I still love him. He's my brother, in spite of whatever he's done that is wrong, if he's done it. But I'm sorry. I'm really sorry for whatever happened. And I still love him. He's my brother. I will always love him.
CHUNG: Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much for being with us.
L. MALVO: OK.
R. MALVO: OK.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Up next: If you think the manhunt for the snipers was complicated, well, wait until you hear about the legal case. Remember these two words: seven jurisdictions.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A lot of issues are clashing in the sniper case. A lot of jurisdictions are involved. Death penalty status varies from state to state. And Malvo is a juvenile.
So, joining us to help us look ahead and see how all of this plays out, our favorite legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, this really is complicated.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It sure is.
CHUNG: Now, the federal prosecutors were quite upset with the Maryland prosecutors, because the Maryland prosecutors plowed forward. Can you explain why are the feds upset and whether or not Maryland can proceed?
TOOBIN: Well, the reason they're upset is, because so many jurisdictions are involved, what really needs to be done is, everybody needs to sit down together and make a plan for how to prosecute these people, because, when you kill people or are alleged to kill people in three different states, several counties within Maryland, several counties within Virginia, each county has the right -- and, in some respects, the obligation -- to prosecute murders that take place in their jurisdiction.
Montgomery County, understandably, wants to go first. There are six murders there. The investigation was headquartered there. But the federal government usually takes a lead role when there are joint prosecutions. And they wanted this to go in a somewhat more organized process. There's no requirement that Maryland had to go forward today. The statute of limitations isn't running. So, you can see why their noses might be a little out of joint. But it will probably be worked out in the relatively near future.
CHUNG: Well, do you expect the feds to file charges?
TOOBIN: I really don't, because what's -- you can only prosecute in federal court violations of federal law. Murder, plain old murder, is not a federal crime. Federal crime tends to be white-collar crime, organized crime.
And shooting someone in the street is a state crime. So it's not clear to me how you could shoehorn this into federal court. The federal jurisdiction has expanded in recent years, so it might be possible, but it really seems more likely to belong in state court.
CHUNG: So, do you expect the other jurisdictions now to hurry up and get their paperwork done, and, on Monday, suddenly we find Virginia filing charges?
TOOBIN: It sure seems that way. Here you had two -- you had the Alabama charges filed today. You had the Maryland prosecutor saying he was going to file charges today. They do seem to be rushing. Just because they filed charges doesn't mean they get to go first. But you can see these prosecutors chomping at the bit. And what really needs to be done is, they need to have some sort of summit meeting that says, OK, this is how this is going to go.
But the thing that is tricky about this is, you always want to go first with your strongest case. You know, this is so new, they don't really know at this point which is the strongest case. So it's really going to be a tricky situation.
CHUNG: Well, if they don't get together and decide collectively, who then does decide?
TOOBIN: It's really hard to know. I am unaware of any situation where prosecutors simply couldn't decide. Ultimately, I suppose, it would go before some court, depending on who has physical possession of the two defendants.
Now they are in federal custody in Baltimore. If there was somehow a clash, I guess a federal judge in Baltimore would resolve it. But I think, given the stakes involved, given the seriousness of these crimes, the prosecutors are really going to feel obligated not to have a spitting contest among each other and concentrate on the main case.
CHUNG: All right, let's take another issue, the fact that Malvo, the younger one, is a juvenile. And, in Maryland, the prosecutor, Douglas Gansler, said that he would be tried as an adult.
TOOBIN: Right.
CHUNG: However, that means he is not eligible for the death penalty, because he's a juvenile.
TOOBIN: Right.
CHUNG: Can you clear this up? Help us figure out what is going on here, because there are different death penalty laws in different states.
TOOBIN: In each state.
He's 17. Under Maryland law, you cannot be executed if you commit the crime when you are under 18. So, he is clearly not eligible for the death penalty in Maryland. In Virginia, in Alabama, he is eligible for the death penalty, if he is found guilty. Now, that's not to say he will get it.
And, keep in mind, one of the interesting things here is, Maryland and Virginia represent almost opposite polls in the death penalty in the United States. Virginia is No. 2 in the entire country, behind Texas, in executing people. They've executed more than 80 people since 1976. Maryland has only executed four. So, if what people really care about is executing these people, Virginia is probably the much more likely place they are going to get it.
CHUNG: All right, I have so many more questions for you, Jeffrey, but we have to go.
TOOBIN: This case, I have a feeling, will be around for a while.
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Thank you.
When we come back, a time of grief: America's most liberal senator and the love of his life dead in a plane crash today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone, who died in a plane crash today, left behind not just a political legacy, but two sons, six grandchildren, hundreds of people who knew and loved him, and untold numbers of others who never met him, but respected and admired him for his many stands on principle. Also on board the small plane that went down in Northern Minnesota today: seven others, including Wellstone's wife and daughter.
CNN's Bill Delaney has the latest on Wellstone's death and life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL DELANEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a far northeastern reach of the state he'd adopted and loved, Minnesota, Senator Paul Wellstone's twin engine 11-seat A-100 crashed in freezing rain and light snow; besides the senator, a one-time college professor raised in Virginia, Sheila, his wife and close adviser, also lost. And the Wellstones' daughter, Marcia, three campaign staffers and two pilots died, too.
Wellstone leaves two sons, six grandchildren. Tributes for perhaps the Senate's most liberal member came from all sides of the political spectrum.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Paul Wellstone was a man of deep convictions. He was a plainspoken fellow who did his best for his state and for his country. May the good lord bless those who grieve.
GOV. JESSE VENTURA (I), MINNESOTA: His dedication to his state and nation was profound. His energy, his passion and his love of people were overwhelming.
SEN. TOM HARKIN (D), IOWA: Paul Wellstone was my closest friend in the Senate. He was the most principled public servant I've ever known. Paul truly had the courage of his convictions. And his convictions were based in the principles of hope and compassion.
DELANEY: A team from the National Transportation Safety Board left Washington to investigate the tragedy. One mystery: why, seven miles out from Eveleth Virginia Municipal Airport, the King Air aircraft reported no problems, only to crash two miles from the airport, a tragedy surprisingly common among politicians.
(on camera): Every politician who manages to scale heights of power then must spend endless hours in the air to stay there, flying home, junkets overseas, campaigning. Since 1972, 13 major U.S. politicians died in plane crashes.
Bill Delaney, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Tonight, the mourners include David and Mark Wellstone. They have lost their father, their mother and their only sister.
Also in mourning: Josh Syrjamaki, Wellstone's deputy campaign manager, who's worked for Wellstone for 10 years. And he joins us from the steps of the state Capitol in St. Paul, where a candlelight vigil was just held.
Thank you, Josh, for being with us. We appreciate it.
I know that you started working for the senator right out of college and then you stuck with him for 10 years. He has to have been quite a special man.
JOSH SYRJAMAKI, WELLSTONE DEPUTY CAMPAIGN MANAGER: He was a phenomenal man.
A couple of weeks after I graduated from college, I met him at the state fair. I didn't know him. And we shook hands and talked briefly. And I immediately walked into his campaign booth at the state fair and signed up to do an internship. And I've been with him ever since.
CHUNG: You know, when I saw Tom Harkin breaking down, it just broke my heart. There have been so many people who have come forward today and told their wonderful stories about him.
As I understand it, he had a wonderful relationship with his family. His wife even worked with him?
SYRJAMAKI: Yes.
He had many passions in life. And one of his passions was politics. And he did that with his family. Another passion in his life was wrestling. And he enjoyed that with his family. And a third passion in his life was his family.
CHUNG: And didn't his sons pick up wrestling as well?
SYRJAMAKI: Yes. Senator Wellstone was a championship wrestler in college at North Carolina. And both of his sons wrestled as well. And they enjoyed that tremendously together. And it really -- it was one of the bonds that kept their family and keeps their family together.
CHUNG: As I understand it, wrestling was such a huge part of his life, because he was not a very tall man. And I guess the best word to describe him was scrappy. And wrestling gave him that oomph. And it became such a huge part of his life. But in politics as well, he was a fighter.
SYRJAMAKI: He was a fighter. And there's no about it. A part of that came from his wrestling. And it stuck with him every day. And he talked about wrestling often. And he would tell stories.
And one quick story: When I graduated from college and I came to work as an intern with him, he had just been elected United States senator, had been there for nine months. And he and I were talking. I had just a tremendous honor to give him a ride one day. And he invited me -- he didn't know me from Adam -- and he invited to come to the state high school wrestling tournament with him. And so I enjoyed a wrestling tournament with Paul and Sheila Wellstone right after -- just right after college.
And he was just a gifted man who loved to engage young people and get them involved in politics.
CHUNG: What was he like in private?
SYRJAMAKI: He had a tremendous sense of humor. I have flown around the state with him any number of times and have flown into that airport with him any number of times.
And often, after a long day of campaigning or a long day of traveling around the state to meet with his constituents -- which he loved to do -- at the end of the day, especially, he would just have them rolling in the aisles laughing. And he would crack the best jokes. And he had a tremendous skill to get people laughing and enjoying life.
CHUNG: Josh Syrjamaki, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
SYRJAMAKI: You're welcome.
And can I just -- can I just say one last thing?
CHUNG: Yes.
SYRJAMAKI: And that is, we lost a lot of -- several good friends today. And I just -- our No. 1 priority is to send our love and our support to all the families who have lost loved ones today. And we're just grieving. So, thank you.
CHUNG: Well, I so appreciate that you took time out to talk to us, because we wanted to find a way to remember him. Thank you so much.
SYRJAMAKI: You're welcome. CHUNG: We are also going to go now to CNN's INSIDE POLITICS anchor, Judy Woodruff, for some final thoughts about Senator Wellstone.
Judy, I know that you knew him, not only personally, but professionally and personally. Tell us about him.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: I did, Connie. I knew him better professionally -- certainly not as well as Josh, who worked with him so closely for 10 years.
But he was what you've been hearing all day long from people who knew him: the happy warrior. Even Hubert Humphrey, who was the original happy warrior, said that about Paul Wellstone. He was someone who brought great spirit, and not just humor, but great spirit, vigor, energy and passion. That's the word that we've heard over and over again today about Paul Wellstone.
He was a liberal. He was proud to be a liberal. He cared about the causes that led to help for the disadvantaged. He believed in an activist government, a government that reached out and helped those who couldn't help themselves, whether it was through health care, education. He himself had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in recent years. So he was fighting his own personal medical battles.
He had had a brother with mental illness, Connie. He fought very hard in Senate for what's called mental health parity, so that insurance companies would allow for treatment for those with mental illness the same as those with physical illness.
So, he had a number of things that he cared deeply about. He was on the Foreign Relations Committee, deeply involved. I know Colin Powell at the State Department put out a personal statement today about the loss of Senator Wellstone. So he touched many lives.
CHUNG: Judy, he was in a tight race for reelection. So what's going to happen in that race?
WOODRUFF: Very good question, Connie.
Of course, all of Minnesota are in mourning tonight. But, privately, Democrats who know that they now have the ability -- it's called not just the Democratic Party, but the Democratic Farmer Labor Party in the state of Minnesota -- they legally have the ability now to put someone else on the ballot up until four days before the election. Of course, right now, we're 11 days before the November 5 election.
They can put someone else on the ballot. Today, there were quiet, private discussions, especially among labor leaders in Minnesota, about Walter Mondale, the former vice president who, as you know, ran for president in 1984, had served in the Senate, later served as ambassador to Japan. That is one name.
Democrats also, we're told, would like to speak with Senator Wellstone's older son David, who we are told is in his late 30s. I'm not sure of his exact age. But, at this point, Democrats are saying they want to give the family time, understandably, private time to be alone and with loved ones before they move on. But you can be assured that this is a top priority.
Any time there's a change in a Senate seat like this, it's important. But in a year when the Senate is literally hanging in the balance -- there's a one-seat Democratic majority, a number of very close, hard-fought races around the country -- and it matters a lot, not just personally, of course, with the loss of Paul Wellstone. But it will matter in terms of policy, in terms of who replaces him.
CHUNG: Judy, there were so many emotional statements and news conferences. Have you ever seen anything like this?
WOODRUFF: Well, when someone -- someone pointed out it had been, I guess, 15 years since John Heinz -- that was the last time a sitting United States senator died in a plane crash.
We lose public servants from time to time. But I think there's something especially dramatic about losing someone who was 58 years old and still so full of vigor and energy and in the middle of a hard- fought campaign. Paul Wellstone came into this year, Connie, considered the most vulnerable Democratic senator in the United States Senate up for reelection, after serving two terms.
And there he was out on the campaign trail. You've shown a lot of these pictures. He was out there. He was shaking hands. You know, he fought his way back to a point where the political pundits, the experts, were saying he had a pretty good shot to beat off this challenge by the mayor of Minneapolis.
And the other thing that has made this race so interesting is, the White House was personally involved. The president's chief political adviser, Karl Rove, personally recruited Norm Coleman, the former mayor of Minneapolis, to run, something that Tim Pawlenty, another Republican in Minnesota, had wanted to do. But Karl Rove got in there and said, "No, we want Norm Coleman to run" -- so interest from the White House on.
This was something a lot of people were paying a lot of attention to. But you're absolutely right. The feelings have come out on both sides, a great loss. A light has gone out in the United States Senate today.
CHUNG: Judy Woodruff, we are just so gratified that you could take some time and spend it with us. We appreciate it. Thank you so much.
WOODRUFF: Thanks, Connie.
CHUNG: All right.
And we'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CHUNG: Coming up on Monday: the first national television interview with the mother of Derek and Alex King, who were convicted of killing their father.
Join "LARRY KING" next.
Have a great weekend.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Plane Crash>
