Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Inteview with Derek and Alex King's mother about her troubled teens and whether or not she believes they killed their father.
Aired October 28, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: Could the police and FBI have stopped the snipers sooner?
ANNOUNCER: Is there someone else with information on the bloody sniper attacks? Were warning signs about the suspects ignored? Did it have to happen?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, this is a case that I believe where the death penalty is appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Seven jurisdictions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're in a better position to get the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: In three states.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: We're going to send a message. We'll make an example out of somebody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: the rush to prosecute. Who will get there first?
The story of John List: He killed his whole family and disappeared for nearly two decades. What led police to ultimately crack the case?
Exclusive: The mother of the King brothers talks for the first time about her troubled teens, their father...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY MARINO, MOTHER OF THE KING BROTHERS: I always admired his character.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... and the question everybody wants answered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think that your sons killed their father?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Good evening.
Tonight, we're learning more about the battle shaping up over how to prosecute accused snipers John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo and about what authorities knew before the two were caught. They may learn more from , Nathaniel Osbourne. Osbourne, taken into custody as a material witness, is said to be cooperating fully. He's expected to be taken from New Jersey to Maryland this week.
But did police and others in law enforcement overlook information they could have had about John Muhammad and Malvo before the shootings? Police had several opportunities to pick up Muhammad and Malvo before this month. And you're about to meet someone who tipped off the FBI about Muhammad an entire year ago.
But first, Dean Murphy, a reporter for "The New York Times" who has been investigating the accused snipers, joins us from Bellingham, Washington.
Dean, thank you for being with us.
DEAN MURPHY, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Thank you.
CHUNG: I know that there were at least two, maybe more occasions in which people have called the FBI about Muhammad. One in particular that you spoke with was a woman. Tell us about her.
MURPHY: Yes.
She was one of three, that we know of, at least. She was a friend of Mr. Muhammad's and Mr. Malvo's. And she says that she actually helped them find a gunsmith to look at a weapon that Mr. Muhammad was interested in having altered. And that was last fall. So, she would have been the second person to have had some contact with federal authorities about something very suspicious.
CHUNG: Why did she call the FBI? Was it simply the gun or was there more to it?
MURPHY: Well, the gun was the main thing. She's pretty up front about the fact that she called the FBI after her friendship ended. She said she was suspicious all along. When he asked her to drive him to this backyard gunsmith out of town, he made it clear to her that he didn't want to do it in town because he didn't want to get detected and he wanted assistance in finding somebody who might be discrete about it. So there were a lot of red flags, in her mind, at that time. And once her friendship ended, I think she got some conscience and decided that she needed to report it.
CHUNG: Now, you interviewed another man who worked out with Muhammad. What did he tell you?
MURPHY: Yes, that's Harjit Singh. And he is, I would say, beyond frustration. He's pretty upset that his tips were not taken seriously. He was the third person -- at least we know of -- the first being Reverend Archer from the mission here, the second being this woman who was Mr. Muhammad's friend -- and the third one being Mr. Singh, who, in June of this year -- and we're just talking about a few months ago -- actually alerted the FBI to his suspicions about Mr. Muhammad and Mr. Malvo.
Mr. Singh, in a very detailed description, talks about a meeting with Mr. Muhammad in which Mr. Muhammad reaches into his Army duffel bag, pulls out a greasy car axle and explains to Mr. Singh that he wants to have it converted into a silencer for a weapon. And he brings out blueprints and all sorts of plan that he doesn't know how to read, but he's hoping Mr. Singh might know how to read or might be able to put him in touch with somebody who could.
And Mr. Singh doesn't tell this to the authorities until a few weeks or days later, actually, when he gets arrested on a domestic violence call from his wife. So there was some doubt from some people among law enforcement that his motives in telling these stories might not be entirely pure. But Mr. Singh said that everything he told them was up front. And, in fact, last week, suddenly the FBI showed up at his doorstep again and was interested in it anew.
So he thinks that, clearly, what he was telling them fit with other things they were hearing.
CHUNG: And, Dean, yes or no on this. Were you able to get an answer out of the FBI?
MURPHY: No.
CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, Dean Murphy of "The New York Times."
One of the people who warned officials that John Muhammad might have ties to terrorist causes -- and, keep in mind, this was after September 11, 2001 -- was the Reverend Al Archer, director of the Lighthouse Mission in Bellingham, Washington.
And he joins us now from Van Nuys.
Thank you, sir, for being with us -- Van Nuys, California, that is. Reverend, can you tell us, what was it about Muhammad and Malvo, Muhammad in particular, that caused you to be suspicious and prompted you to call the FBI?
REV. AL ARCHER, DIRECTOR, LIGHTHOUSE MISSION: It was things that I saw in his behavior. And they were not negative things, necessarily, to begin with.
John was a very polite man. He was very cooperative when he was at our mission. And he was clean-cut. He dressed well and showed no obvious negative behavior. A few days, though, after he came there, his children that came with him were taken away from him. And then, at some point, he got a phone call from a travel bureau.
CHUNG: Was that unusual at a homeless shelter?
ARCHER: At a homeless shelter, that was very unusual, yes.
And then he started doing some traveling that we noticed. And that also was unusual. And a combination of these things caused me to make the decision that there was something that was not right with Mr. Muhammad. There were other staff members on our staff that also was noticing some of these things. And some of us had discussed it a couple of different occasions, that there was something about this man that we didn't understand.
We didn't know exactly what it was that was bothering us. But it caused me personally to think that he was involved in some type of a group who had plans to cause some destruction to our country.
CHUNG: Were you wondering why and how he could travel if he didn't have any money to live somewhere?
ARCHER: Well, my thought was that he was associated with some people someplace that could sponsor the kind of travel that he was doing, even though he was unemployed personally.
CHUNG: Did you know where he was going when he was traveling?
ARCHER: It is hard to remember exactly. I think that, one time, he came back and told me that he had been to somewhere in Louisiana. And I'm not certain that that is correct in my memory. Other than that, all I know is pretty much what I've heard more recently in the news.
CHUNG: Now, when you called the FBI, what was the response that you got? Were they skeptical or did they just take the information down? What happened?
ARCHER: The agent that I talked to was in Seattle. And I told him the things that made me suspicious of John. And he told me that possibly he had money because he was dealing drugs. And, of course, I told him I saw no evidence that John was a drug dealer. But I still was concerned as to how he had so much money that he could be doing the traveling that he was doing while he was really living in a homeless shelter. CHUNG: Did you get the impression that you were just being brushed off by the FBI?
ARCHER: I was somewhat disappointed at how quickly the conversation ended. Of course, that is not my line of work and so I didn't know what they might do with the information, even though they didn't contact me any more about it.
CHUNG: Actually, I can imagine what you must have thought after you heard about his arrest.
Now, one other question: Did Muhammad have a duffel bag with him? I also read that someone had reported that he had a wad of money in his wallet. Did you see any evidence of either?
ARCHER: I know nothing about a wad of money. I do remember that there probably was a duffel bag in his possession.
CHUNG: Thank you, Reverend Archer.
Did the INS essentially make it possible for Lee Boyd Malvo to remain in this country despite his illegal status, even after September 11? And did the FBI and maybe other agencies let tips about John Muhammad go unanswered, even though some suggested links to terrorism?
Ron Kessler's last book on the FBI helped lead to a change in the bureau's leadership. His newest book is called "The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI." And he joins us now from Washington.
Thank you, Ron, for being with us.
RONALD KESSLER, AUTHOR, "THE BUREAU": Great to be with you, Connie.
CHUNG: We just heard Reverend Archer say that, when he called the FBI and alerted the FBI, he didn't get a call back and he was quite surprised at how abruptly the conversation ended. What is your take on that conversation and other tips that the FBI had received?
KESSLER: Well, as you could tell in from the way he described his conversation, he really didn't have much to say. He said: "Well, this guy is in a homeless shelter. And he seems to have some money." He doesn't know where it is coming from. "And, by the way, he got a call from a travel agency."
Well, what does that mean? It is so vague. At the same time, you have civil liberties groups ganging up on the FBI for supposedly going too far in their investigations. That simply was not enough to start any investigation.
CHUNG: You just think there wasn't enough meat on that bone?
KESSLER: Yes.
CHUNG: What about the woman that was described to us by "The New York Times" reporter?
KESSLER: Well, again, it seemed vague. And "The New York Times" story itself indicated that some of these people seemed to be possibly embellishing what they might have told the FBI in hindsight. I just don't see any smoking gun there.
And, also, let's keep in mind that the FBI did in fact solve this case. They took it over from the Montgomery police, although they still worked together. Gary Bald, the head of the Baltimore office, was the person in charge. They did catch the suspects. And they did wrap it up, so they deserve a lot of credit.
CHUNG: You know what? The FBI is probably -- the spokesperson there is probably keeling over with surprise that you're commending...
KESSLER: Well, yes, we beat up on the FBI when they didn't stop attack on September 11. Here, they solved the case. Let's just make note of that.
CHUNG: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
KESSLER: But, at the same time, they were slowed by a totally primitive computer system, which is the legacy of Louis Freeh, the former FBI director, who had an aversion to technology, didn't himself use e-mail.
So the FBI's computers were just a wreck. And they actually were taking tips on the tip line with carbon-copied forms, which were -- they were faxed to different police departments. It was unbelievable. And the fact that the license tag number had been sighted some 10 times by different police jurisdictions and nobody put that together, because, again, they didn't have a good computer system, which would have noted that, "Wow, the same tag showed up 10 times," that also was a big flaw in the investigation.
Again, it goes back to the horrible computer systems that are now finally being updated.
CHUNG: And I'm sure -- in the last 10 seconds that we have -- you saw the FBI director testifying that there were so many different types of computer systems, it's going to take a long time to get a unified system.
KESSLER: Yes, it will be about a year or two.
But the other -- the really big problem was that the Alabama police were not hooked up to the FBI fingerprint system. And, therefore, they didn't match a print until the FBI got on the case.
CHUNG: Right. They didn't see a need to go outside.
KESSLER: Yes. Just think of how outrageous that is. If they had matched it and spent the money to do that, they very possibly could have caught these people before they started doing their killings.
CHUNG: All right, Ron Kessler, the book is called "The Bureau." Thank you so much for being with us.
KESSLER: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Up next: turning from the investigators to the prosecutors. Who is going to be trying this case?
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: two teens charged with killing their own father, their verdict overturned. The mother of Derek and Alex King tells her side to Connie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think your boys love you?
MARINO: Yes, I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And answers the big question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think that your sons killed their father?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT exclusive when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We've been telling you about all the information emerging about what police and the FBI knew or could have known about the sniper suspects. A lot needs to be sorted out.
And now the prosecutors are fighting over who gets the suspects now that they're finally in custody. Seven jurisdictions will file or have already filed murder charges, even though Montgomery County, Maryland, was the site of the most shootings, including the first one. Murder indictments were handed up today in two Virginia counties, Spotsylvania and Hanover. And the federal government is now looking into possible charges linked to the demand for $10 million.
Joining us now to prevent all of this from giving me a giant headache: our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
This sounds to me as if it is just a childish game of oneupmanship.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was really funny.
During one of the press conferences today, the prosecutor from Hanover County went out of his way to say, "Well, I'd like to thank the U.S. attorney and the other Virginia prosecutors," very obviously not thanking the Maryland prosecutors. This is really -- you used to live in Washington. You know how the Virginia and Maryland suburbs fight all the time.
CHUNG: Sure.
TOOBIN: That is what is happening here.
CHUNG: And, obviously, the Montgomery County prosecutor was the first to file on Friday.
TOOBIN: Well, he was the first of the sniper suspects. He was after Alabama.
CHUNG: It was Alabama. Oh, my goodness, yes. You're so right.
TOOBIN: Yes. That's right.
So, he is the first of the sniper jurisdictions to file. And he, of course, most importantly, has six murders in his county. And that's the best card he has to play in trying to get this case first.
CHUNG: So, is the federal government going to make a decision?
TOOBIN: You know, as a legal matter, it is not clear who is ultimately in charge.
But one of the legal truisms that is not in the law books but really true is, don't mess with Uncle Sam. The federal government is really going to decide who gets this. And this Justice Department is deeply committed to the death penalty. And the death penalty very much favors the Virginia jurisdictions.
CHUNG: Well, we're going talk to someone coming up and we're going to deal with the issue of whether or not knowing that the death penalty is a possibility could affect the trial. And I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. So we'll get to that in just a second.
Isn't there a clear possibility that Malvo will plea-bargain in some way? It just seems look a no-brainer.
TOOBIN: It does, because he's only 17 -- or, it turns out, he may be 18 -- and Muhammad is 41.
But what makes a plea-bargain especially complicated in this case is that, if you represent Malvo, you have to cut a deal with every single jurisdiction, because, if you make a deal with Maryland and say, "I will testify in your trial," the prosecutors in Hanover, Spotsylvania, all those other counties, they may say: "Fine. You don't have any deal with us. We're still seeking the death penalty."
So it is going to be extremely complicated to work out a plea- bargain, not impossible, but it will take a long time.
CHUNG: And, in Virginia, if convicted, someone who is 17? TOOBIN: Big difference. In Virginia, 17-year-olds can get the death penalty. In Maryland, not possible.
CHUNG: OK, Jeffrey, I want to pause for a moment, so we can get some firsthand perspective on how to defend a case such as this.
Robert Nigh was defense attorney for Oklahoma city bomber Timothy McVeigh. And he joins us now from Tulsa.
Thank you, Mr. Nigh.
I was just talking to Jeffrey Toobin about the whole issue of the death penalty. Isn't it true that if a jury is looking at that possibility, that it could clearly affect the way it deliberates?
ROBERT NIGH, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR TIMOTHY MCVEIGH: Certainly. It gives an entirely different complexion to the whole case. It seems very early to be talking about the death penalty. We haven't even sorted through the facts yet.
CHUNG: All right, well, let's get to the whole idea that this is a case in which we can venture to say that public opinion is against these two suspects. And, in fact, the shootings have stopped. So the public may very well indeed believe that these two men are guilty. How do you defend someone who has this kind of force running against him?
NIGH: You have to concentrate on the process and insist that the process be fair and that we have a real trial, instead of a formality.
And I think that there are two areas that you can concentrate on in the beginning. The first is the passage of time. We need to allow our fact-finding to be based upon reason and common sense instead of emotion. And we need some time to pass before there is a trial. And then the second issue is the place where the case is tried.
TOOBIN: But, Rob, you're talking about a state -- states like Virginia and Maryland that are small. You got the McVeigh case moved from Oklahoma City all the way to Denver. Where are you going to go in Maryland?
NIGH: Your point is unquestionably true. And, for that reason, I think that you have to rely first upon the passage of time in an effort to make the system have a chance of being fair.
TOOBIN: How much time do you think is fair?
NIGH: At a minimum, a year. But greater time than that, I think, is appropriate in this case, first, because of all the defense investigation that is going to have to be conducted; but, secondly, to allow some of our wounds to heal and to allow some of the emotion to dissipate and some of the preconceived ideas to go away.
CHUNG: Mr. Nigh, what advice would you give the two defense attorneys in this case, beyond the entire question of change of venue?
NIGH: That's difficult from the outside looking in.
And the attorneys that have the job of representing either one of these individuals will, of course, be in the best position to make the right decisions. But, from a distance, I think that anyone would say that what we all have to focus upon is the fundamentals of the process and what we hope that our system is about. And we hope that it is about fairness. And if we can all keep our eye on that ball, then we're all going to win.
CHUNG: All right, back to the original question that I asked, the very first one. Since we were jumping ahead, can you tell us if indeed these two suspects, or one, faces the possibility, if he did indeed -- if he is found guilty and faces the death penalty, how does that affect the jury?
NIGH: Well, the potential jurors will have to examine what they really believe about the death penalty.
I think that, most of us, when we think about the death penalty, think about it in abstract terms, without having to consider, if we were a juror on a case, whether we could impose it. And I think that our ideas about the death penalty have changed dramatically in the recent past. We know that innocent people have been convicted and probably executed. And we know that we make mistakes.
And we know that there is racial disparity in the death penalty. And that has caused a lot of us to reexamine our beliefs. And the potential jurors in this case are going to have to do that on a very personal and realistic level. And that's one consideration that they're going to face from the very beginning, if it is a death penalty case.
CHUNG: Robert Nigh, thank you.
And, Jeffrey Toobin, as always, thank you.
Still ahead, another case that gripped the nation: the two defendants, two young brothers, accused of killing their father. For the first time, the mother of Derek and Alex King tells her story on national television.
ANNOUNCER: Next: "Cracking the Case," the story of the killer who vanished for 18 years without a trace. Then the twist: what finally got him caught -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: For a while, it seemed as though the D.C. area sniper case might never be cracked. And it might not have been if not for a tip that police say came from the snipers themselves.
As we wrap up our series on "Cracking the Case" tonight, we're going to look at a killer who also left a tip behind after deciding he believed in heaven so much that his family would be better off if he sent them there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): An affluent New Jersey suburb, streets lined with mansions, it was quite a step up for John List and his family. Their 18-room house, though old, was grand. The family lived a normal life, List, a soft-spoken bank vice president and Sunday school teacher, his wife, Helen, daughter, Patricia, sons John and Frederick, and List's mother, Alma.
TIMOTHY BENFORD, AUTHOR, "RIGHTEOUS CARNAGE: THE LIST MURDERS": Image meant a lot to John List. There's no question about that. But his own self-esteem meant something. He wanted to show he was a provider; he was able to give his family the better life.
CHUNG: But that ended on November 9, 1971.
BENFORD: He killed his wife first -- she was having coffee or tea at the table -- then went upstairs and killed his mother.
CHUNG: After the murders, incredibly, John List ate lunch. Meanwhile, his children were making their way home from school, home to a horror they never could have imagined.
BENFORD: One by one as they came home, he shot them.
CHUNG: After he was done, he meticulously cleaned up the crime scene, methodically lined up all the bodies, and then List wrote a five-page confession to his pastor. He left the note with the bodies.
BENFORD: He wanted to explain that he wasn't just a cold-blooded killer. He hadn't murdered them in a fit of rage. There was a reason and there was a logic for why he was doing it.
CHUNG: List admitted that he was living beyond his means. Foreclosure loomed, welfare inevitable. He felt the only way he could properly provide for his family was to kill them. It was his belief they would go to heaven and he could confess his sins later. If he had killed himself, he thought, he wouldn't go to heaven.
BENFORD: All of these things made him realize the only way to preserve their salvation was to send them to heaven now. And that was the most incriminating piece of evidence against him, his own handwritten letter.
CHUNG: It seemed like an open-and-shut case. Police had a handwritten confession. But there was one problem. List had carefully planned his escape: cashing in savings bonds, making phone calls to explain the family would be out of town. He even stopped the mail and newspaper deliveries.
His crime went unnoticed for a month, until friends and neighbors were alarmed by the family's long absence, enough time for List to escape and start a new life in Colorado.
BENFORD: It was not easy to find him, because he was not the kind of a person who would normally attract attention anyway. So he slid in and fit in with the wallpaper. He was not conspicuous, no matter where he was.
CHUNG: Law enforcement had a false lead when List's car was found at a New York airport. Thinking he made his getaway on an airplane, they searched as far away as Europe and South America. Police and FBI filled 10 volumes with dead ends and incorrect sightings.
The case made headlines. Despite a nationwide manhunt, authorities were stumped. List remained free in Colorado working as an accountant, even marrying again. True to character, he was quiet, yet alert, eventually moving to Virginia. Then came a new television program, "America's Most Wanted." Ironically, it was List's favorite show. He called it educational and recommended it to friends.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED")
JOHN WALSH, HOST: If you know anything about John List...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: People across America tuned in that night, including John List. What happened next shocked everyone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now to tell us how they cracked the case are Westfield Police Chief Bernard Tracy and forensics artist Frank Bender.
Gentlemen, thank you for being with us.
Chief Tracy, I was very surprised that you actually went to "America's Most Wanted" for help. You had tried "Unsolved Mysteries." And they wouldn't pick it up. This was an old case. So what happened?
BERNARD TRACY, WESTFIELD, NEW JERSEY, POLICE CHIEF: Well, "Unsolved Mysteries" thought it was too old. And "America's Most Wanted" seemed like our last opportunity to get it aired nationwide. And it proved to work.
CHUNG: And you came up with the idea of creating a bust. And this man right next to you, Mr. Bender, did.
How were you able to age him or figure out how he would have aged? Because it really did look like him.
FRANK BENDER, FORENSICS ARTIST: Well, I've done it successfully before for the U.S. Marshal Service.
And I was asked to do it for the "America's Most Wanted" show. And what I do is, I put myself, in a sense, in the shoes of the criminal. I try to think like the individual, what the person eats, what they drink.
CHUNG: Really? BENDER: Do they have drug abuse habits? All of this I try to take into consideration. And I'll bring in a criminal psychologist or I'll do whatever it takes.
Like, in the John List case, I went to the University of Pennsylvania, met with Dr. Whitaker (ph) and Dr. Bartlett (ph), two top rhinoplastic surgeons, to help me with the mastoid scar that was on his neck. So it is good teamwork.
CHUNG: Chief Tracy, do you think it was the bust that led people to -- it was a neighbor, actually, a former neighbor of John List who called you.
TRACY: Right. I believe the bust, along with keeping this case alive. We got it out in the media. Some of the tabloids picked it. And "America's Most Wanted" did an excellent job presenting the show. The bust, I think, gave it real life. And altogether, I think that's what resolved this case.
CHUNG: Now, I had interviewed him when he was in prison. And he said that he thought he would be caught in two or three weeks. Why do you think it took so long?
TRACY: Well, he had a month head start. And I think that alone threw the police off. And, initially, they looked overseas and other places.
CHUNG: And you weren't on the case then, of course. You came on later.
TRACY: Yes, that's correct.
CHUNG: And where is the bust now, Mr. Bender?
BENDER: I believe it is in the FBI's museum in their headquarters in Washington.
CHUNG: Where it should be.
BENDER: Right.
CHUNG: So, Chief Tracy, just take us to the end now. He's serving how long? It's a life prison term, right?
TRACY: Right. He has five life terms in Trenton State Prison right now in New Jersey. And he will pass away in prison.
CHUNG: How many days later after "America's Most Wanted" was on did you capture him?
TRACY: Ten days later. The FBI located him in Virginia.
CHUNG: That's pretty impressive, huh?
TRACY: Yes.
CHUNG: Chief Tracy, Mr. Bender, thank you so much for being with us.
And still ahead: a footnote to the sniper story. Who would have guessed it? Chief Charles Moose now has a fan club.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next: For the first time, Alex and Derek King's mother talks about her sons and Rosie O'Donnell's role in their case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARINO: Yes, I'm very thankful that she's -- and that she even took the time to even do anything so generous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT exclusive when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We'll be right back with our exclusive interview with Kelly Marino, the mother of Derek and Alex King.
But first, we want to share a quirky footnote to the sniper investigation. Fans of Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose have set up a site called ChiefMoose.com that pays tribute to the chief and to all things Moose. They say they intend it as a gesture of respect. They also sell merchandise which the site says will benefit the snipers' victims fund.
And we'll be back in a moment with the mother of Derek and Alex King.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A Florida judge this month overturned the convictions of Derek and Alex King on charges they killed their father and set their house on fair to cover up their crime.
In a moment, for the first time on national television, the boys' mother will tell her side of the story. It is a story that begins with a blaze at the home of a 40-year-old print shop worker named Terry King just outside Pensacola. Firefighters found Terry King dead in his recliner. Shortly thereafter, 13-year-old Derek and 12-year- old Alex turned themselves in and confessed to killing their own father.
Derek said he struck his father with an aluminum bat about 10 times. Then the boys changed their story, retracting their confessions and blaming the murder on Ricky Chavis, a family friend and convicted child molester, who let them hang out and smoke pot with him. And that's not all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALEX KING, SON OF KELLY MARINO: He said that he loved me and, like, he said we would do something -- like we were gay and stuff. And, like, he was saying things like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Chavis denied it all.
Then who would prosecute try for murder? In an extraordinary move, prosecutors tried two murder cases, one against Chavis and once against the boys, using two different so-called sets of facts. Even though Chavis was acquitted, the verdict was kept secret until the jury in the boys' case issued its verdict.
The boys were found guilty of second-degree murder and faced up to 60 years or life in prison. Then former talk show host Rosie O'Donnell got involved. She hired a high-profile lawyer, Jayne Weintraub, to help win the boys a new trial. It worked. The very same judge who presided over the two murder trials overturned the boys' convictions and ordered prosecutors and defense attorneys to come up with a solution.
The judge says, if there's no solution, he may have to order a new trial. Ricky Chavis, who maintains his innocence, goes on trial in February over allegations he had a physical relationship with Alex.
As for Alex and Derek's mother, Kelly Marino, she has two other children from another relationship and now lives in Lexington, Kentucky.
She recently decided to tell me her side of the story, for the first time on national television.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Kelly, thank you for being with us.
Kelly, do you think that your sons killed their father?
MARINO: No, I do not. I have not thought that at all.
CHUNG: Why not?
MARINO: Well, after visiting them that first night, you know, I talked with them and I could tell right then they were lying.
CHUNG: You went to visit them in jail and they did tell you that they killed their dad.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: Derek said that he hit him and that he started the fire in the house.
MARINO: Yes. And Derek told me -- I mean, he said -- you know, he said he hit him with a bat. And he said, "Then I threw the bat on the bed." And he said, "I threw a match on the bed and left. Then we hitch hiked," to a town that's real close to ours.
CHUNG: All right. Is it possible that Terry was abusing them and they wanted to kill him to get back at him?
MARINO: No, not at all. Terry -- I was with him for eight years. I always admired his character and -- you know, and the way he was as a father. He was very consistent. If something was wrong once, it was wrong. He never raised his voice to the boys, ever.
CHUNG: Who do you believe did kill -- if you don't think that your boys killed their father, who do you think killed Terry?
MARINO: Oh, I think Rick Chavis did, and I think there's a couple of other people who, if they were not there, I really firmly believe that they were involved -- you know, they knew about it, if nothing else.
CHUNG: When you saw your son Alex testifying, talking about his homosexual relationship with Ricky Chavis...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you willingly engage in sex with Ricky Chavis?
KING: Yes, sir, I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: ... what did you think?
MARINO: I was just sickened. It just makes me sick. Ricky Chavis thinks he did nothing wrong. I mean, it's just -- it's sickening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: He said that my dad was dead. He said that he had killed my dad to protect us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think that your sons lied to protect Ricky Chavis?
MARINO: Yes, I do. And they still don't say bad things, you know, about him to this day, because he -- you know, I'm told, he is a very charming person, although I had never seen this man in person until court.
CHUNG: Let's go back to the beginning. You met Terry -- you were only 18 years old. After living with him for a while you became pregnant and you had Derek, and then you had Alex. Then after that you had two children by another man; twins.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: And you were there with Terry raising four children.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: One day you decided to leave. Why did you leave?
MARINO: It wasn't that simple. I woke up just one day and I said, Well, you know, I want to just run away."
It's just after I had Alex, my mood -- I mean, he had to stay in the hospital for 10 days after I had him. You know, I was upset about that. And I thought it was just taking me longer to recover, you know, over that.
And anyhow, the depression just went on and on and on. And, you know, it would get better on some days. I'd feel better. And I'd be like, "Oh, I'm fine." I didn't know I was depressed. I didn't know I was clinically depressed.
CHUNG: So tell us, when did you reach the conclusion that you should leave the family? And how old were the boys at the time?
MARINO: It was in '93. Let's see, Derek was 5, Alex was 4.
It wasn't that I just, you know, up and left. It's just -- I'm not defending myself, believe me. I was just -- aside from feeling bad and being, you know, extremely stressed and -- oh, dear God, we had no car, we had, you know, nothing here and no air conditioner in this house with no insulation.
CHUNG: Derek went to live with foster parents and you didn't see him for seven and a half years. How could you not keep in touch with him?
MARINO: In the beginning I did. You know, I'd call him, you know, like, at least every other day.
CHUNG: Kelly, there are probably people out there who are saying, "The reason why they're in this mess is because you left them and you hadn't been taking care of them. You had not been a mother to them."
MARINO: I was very much a mother to them when I was with them. I was very loving and very, you know, nurturing -- very lovable. I mean, you know, I'm -- my children, you know, just play, hug, everything all day, and wrestle, and all that stuff, you know, that moms do with their children.
CHUNG: But there were seven and a half long years...
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: ... that you didn't even have contact with Derek. But didn't you want to see him?
MARINO: Oh, with all my heart. I sent letters and cards. And she told me -- she said, "Well, he just looked at them and just threw them aside." And so, you know...
CHUNG: That's his foster mother.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: But, Kelly, there are people out there who might say you're just trying to make excuses now and that, in fact, if you really cared about them you would have brought them to live with you.
MARINO: Not true.
I'm not trying to make any excuses for anything, because I take full responsibility for anything, you know, and all the hurt and pain, you know, I caused my children, Terry, my family.
CHUNG: Do you think your boys love you?
MARINO: Yes, I do. They tell me that and that Derek had asked for me from the -- you know, after the verdict, he asked for me over and over.
CHUNG: Are you glad that Rosie O'Donnell has stepped in and gotten a lawyer to help out?
MARINO: Yes, I'm very thankful that she's -- and that she even took the time to even do anything so generous. And it's very much appreciated.
CHUNG: The biggest surprise, of course, was when their conviction was thrown out. Did you have any idea that that was coming?
MARINO: No, I didn't. It was an answer to prayer after a year of, you know, just praying and hoping.
CHUNG: Do you think your boys understand what happened to them?
MARINO: No, I don't think so.
CHUNG: That they were convicted of murder, and then the conviction was overturned.
MARINO: No, I just -- I don't think they understand that. I do know the only thing they really understand is that they're, you know, in that cell. You know, they're in that cell and they just want to, you know, be outside and play and go places and do things, like other children. And, you know, they can't wait for that.
CHUNG: How long has it been since you've talked to them?
MARINO: Let's see, I talked with them -- was it Thursday? -- Thursday was the last time I talked to them, I think.
CHUNG: Last Thursday?
MARINO: Yes. CHUNG: Have you been talking to them as much as once a week?
MARINO: No. I have not.
Hopefully, one day the whole story -- you know, I kept diary after diary throughout all these years, and journals -- I mean, not journals. And I plan to put it all together in a book and tell, you know, what happened start to finish and just everything.
CHUNG: Kelly Marino, thank you so much for being with us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: We'll be back with a few thoughts about tomorrow.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow: an inside look at the sons of Saddam Hussein. Is tyranny a family business? Did one of them really shoot an uncle? What the sons of Saddam have done to their own people.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": the latest on the sniper case.
Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
troubled teens and whether or not she believes they killed their father.>
Aired October 28, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: Could the police and FBI have stopped the snipers sooner?
ANNOUNCER: Is there someone else with information on the bloody sniper attacks? Were warning signs about the suspects ignored? Did it have to happen?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, this is a case that I believe where the death penalty is appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Seven jurisdictions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're in a better position to get the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: In three states.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: We're going to send a message. We'll make an example out of somebody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight: the rush to prosecute. Who will get there first?
The story of John List: He killed his whole family and disappeared for nearly two decades. What led police to ultimately crack the case?
Exclusive: The mother of the King brothers talks for the first time about her troubled teens, their father...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KELLY MARINO, MOTHER OF THE KING BROTHERS: I always admired his character.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: ... and the question everybody wants answered.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think that your sons killed their father?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Good evening.
Tonight, we're learning more about the battle shaping up over how to prosecute accused snipers John Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo and about what authorities knew before the two were caught. They may learn more from , Nathaniel Osbourne. Osbourne, taken into custody as a material witness, is said to be cooperating fully. He's expected to be taken from New Jersey to Maryland this week.
But did police and others in law enforcement overlook information they could have had about John Muhammad and Malvo before the shootings? Police had several opportunities to pick up Muhammad and Malvo before this month. And you're about to meet someone who tipped off the FBI about Muhammad an entire year ago.
But first, Dean Murphy, a reporter for "The New York Times" who has been investigating the accused snipers, joins us from Bellingham, Washington.
Dean, thank you for being with us.
DEAN MURPHY, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Thank you.
CHUNG: I know that there were at least two, maybe more occasions in which people have called the FBI about Muhammad. One in particular that you spoke with was a woman. Tell us about her.
MURPHY: Yes.
She was one of three, that we know of, at least. She was a friend of Mr. Muhammad's and Mr. Malvo's. And she says that she actually helped them find a gunsmith to look at a weapon that Mr. Muhammad was interested in having altered. And that was last fall. So, she would have been the second person to have had some contact with federal authorities about something very suspicious.
CHUNG: Why did she call the FBI? Was it simply the gun or was there more to it?
MURPHY: Well, the gun was the main thing. She's pretty up front about the fact that she called the FBI after her friendship ended. She said she was suspicious all along. When he asked her to drive him to this backyard gunsmith out of town, he made it clear to her that he didn't want to do it in town because he didn't want to get detected and he wanted assistance in finding somebody who might be discrete about it. So there were a lot of red flags, in her mind, at that time. And once her friendship ended, I think she got some conscience and decided that she needed to report it.
CHUNG: Now, you interviewed another man who worked out with Muhammad. What did he tell you?
MURPHY: Yes, that's Harjit Singh. And he is, I would say, beyond frustration. He's pretty upset that his tips were not taken seriously. He was the third person -- at least we know of -- the first being Reverend Archer from the mission here, the second being this woman who was Mr. Muhammad's friend -- and the third one being Mr. Singh, who, in June of this year -- and we're just talking about a few months ago -- actually alerted the FBI to his suspicions about Mr. Muhammad and Mr. Malvo.
Mr. Singh, in a very detailed description, talks about a meeting with Mr. Muhammad in which Mr. Muhammad reaches into his Army duffel bag, pulls out a greasy car axle and explains to Mr. Singh that he wants to have it converted into a silencer for a weapon. And he brings out blueprints and all sorts of plan that he doesn't know how to read, but he's hoping Mr. Singh might know how to read or might be able to put him in touch with somebody who could.
And Mr. Singh doesn't tell this to the authorities until a few weeks or days later, actually, when he gets arrested on a domestic violence call from his wife. So there was some doubt from some people among law enforcement that his motives in telling these stories might not be entirely pure. But Mr. Singh said that everything he told them was up front. And, in fact, last week, suddenly the FBI showed up at his doorstep again and was interested in it anew.
So he thinks that, clearly, what he was telling them fit with other things they were hearing.
CHUNG: And, Dean, yes or no on this. Were you able to get an answer out of the FBI?
MURPHY: No.
CHUNG: All right, thank you so much, Dean Murphy of "The New York Times."
One of the people who warned officials that John Muhammad might have ties to terrorist causes -- and, keep in mind, this was after September 11, 2001 -- was the Reverend Al Archer, director of the Lighthouse Mission in Bellingham, Washington.
And he joins us now from Van Nuys.
Thank you, sir, for being with us -- Van Nuys, California, that is. Reverend, can you tell us, what was it about Muhammad and Malvo, Muhammad in particular, that caused you to be suspicious and prompted you to call the FBI?
REV. AL ARCHER, DIRECTOR, LIGHTHOUSE MISSION: It was things that I saw in his behavior. And they were not negative things, necessarily, to begin with.
John was a very polite man. He was very cooperative when he was at our mission. And he was clean-cut. He dressed well and showed no obvious negative behavior. A few days, though, after he came there, his children that came with him were taken away from him. And then, at some point, he got a phone call from a travel bureau.
CHUNG: Was that unusual at a homeless shelter?
ARCHER: At a homeless shelter, that was very unusual, yes.
And then he started doing some traveling that we noticed. And that also was unusual. And a combination of these things caused me to make the decision that there was something that was not right with Mr. Muhammad. There were other staff members on our staff that also was noticing some of these things. And some of us had discussed it a couple of different occasions, that there was something about this man that we didn't understand.
We didn't know exactly what it was that was bothering us. But it caused me personally to think that he was involved in some type of a group who had plans to cause some destruction to our country.
CHUNG: Were you wondering why and how he could travel if he didn't have any money to live somewhere?
ARCHER: Well, my thought was that he was associated with some people someplace that could sponsor the kind of travel that he was doing, even though he was unemployed personally.
CHUNG: Did you know where he was going when he was traveling?
ARCHER: It is hard to remember exactly. I think that, one time, he came back and told me that he had been to somewhere in Louisiana. And I'm not certain that that is correct in my memory. Other than that, all I know is pretty much what I've heard more recently in the news.
CHUNG: Now, when you called the FBI, what was the response that you got? Were they skeptical or did they just take the information down? What happened?
ARCHER: The agent that I talked to was in Seattle. And I told him the things that made me suspicious of John. And he told me that possibly he had money because he was dealing drugs. And, of course, I told him I saw no evidence that John was a drug dealer. But I still was concerned as to how he had so much money that he could be doing the traveling that he was doing while he was really living in a homeless shelter. CHUNG: Did you get the impression that you were just being brushed off by the FBI?
ARCHER: I was somewhat disappointed at how quickly the conversation ended. Of course, that is not my line of work and so I didn't know what they might do with the information, even though they didn't contact me any more about it.
CHUNG: Actually, I can imagine what you must have thought after you heard about his arrest.
Now, one other question: Did Muhammad have a duffel bag with him? I also read that someone had reported that he had a wad of money in his wallet. Did you see any evidence of either?
ARCHER: I know nothing about a wad of money. I do remember that there probably was a duffel bag in his possession.
CHUNG: Thank you, Reverend Archer.
Did the INS essentially make it possible for Lee Boyd Malvo to remain in this country despite his illegal status, even after September 11? And did the FBI and maybe other agencies let tips about John Muhammad go unanswered, even though some suggested links to terrorism?
Ron Kessler's last book on the FBI helped lead to a change in the bureau's leadership. His newest book is called "The Bureau: The Secret History of the FBI." And he joins us now from Washington.
Thank you, Ron, for being with us.
RONALD KESSLER, AUTHOR, "THE BUREAU": Great to be with you, Connie.
CHUNG: We just heard Reverend Archer say that, when he called the FBI and alerted the FBI, he didn't get a call back and he was quite surprised at how abruptly the conversation ended. What is your take on that conversation and other tips that the FBI had received?
KESSLER: Well, as you could tell in from the way he described his conversation, he really didn't have much to say. He said: "Well, this guy is in a homeless shelter. And he seems to have some money." He doesn't know where it is coming from. "And, by the way, he got a call from a travel agency."
Well, what does that mean? It is so vague. At the same time, you have civil liberties groups ganging up on the FBI for supposedly going too far in their investigations. That simply was not enough to start any investigation.
CHUNG: You just think there wasn't enough meat on that bone?
KESSLER: Yes.
CHUNG: What about the woman that was described to us by "The New York Times" reporter?
KESSLER: Well, again, it seemed vague. And "The New York Times" story itself indicated that some of these people seemed to be possibly embellishing what they might have told the FBI in hindsight. I just don't see any smoking gun there.
And, also, let's keep in mind that the FBI did in fact solve this case. They took it over from the Montgomery police, although they still worked together. Gary Bald, the head of the Baltimore office, was the person in charge. They did catch the suspects. And they did wrap it up, so they deserve a lot of credit.
CHUNG: You know what? The FBI is probably -- the spokesperson there is probably keeling over with surprise that you're commending...
KESSLER: Well, yes, we beat up on the FBI when they didn't stop attack on September 11. Here, they solved the case. Let's just make note of that.
CHUNG: Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
KESSLER: But, at the same time, they were slowed by a totally primitive computer system, which is the legacy of Louis Freeh, the former FBI director, who had an aversion to technology, didn't himself use e-mail.
So the FBI's computers were just a wreck. And they actually were taking tips on the tip line with carbon-copied forms, which were -- they were faxed to different police departments. It was unbelievable. And the fact that the license tag number had been sighted some 10 times by different police jurisdictions and nobody put that together, because, again, they didn't have a good computer system, which would have noted that, "Wow, the same tag showed up 10 times," that also was a big flaw in the investigation.
Again, it goes back to the horrible computer systems that are now finally being updated.
CHUNG: And I'm sure -- in the last 10 seconds that we have -- you saw the FBI director testifying that there were so many different types of computer systems, it's going to take a long time to get a unified system.
KESSLER: Yes, it will be about a year or two.
But the other -- the really big problem was that the Alabama police were not hooked up to the FBI fingerprint system. And, therefore, they didn't match a print until the FBI got on the case.
CHUNG: Right. They didn't see a need to go outside.
KESSLER: Yes. Just think of how outrageous that is. If they had matched it and spent the money to do that, they very possibly could have caught these people before they started doing their killings.
CHUNG: All right, Ron Kessler, the book is called "The Bureau." Thank you so much for being with us.
KESSLER: Thank you, Connie.
CHUNG: Up next: turning from the investigators to the prosecutors. Who is going to be trying this case?
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: two teens charged with killing their own father, their verdict overturned. The mother of Derek and Alex King tells her side to Connie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think your boys love you?
MARINO: Yes, I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: And answers the big question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think that your sons killed their father?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT exclusive when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We've been telling you about all the information emerging about what police and the FBI knew or could have known about the sniper suspects. A lot needs to be sorted out.
And now the prosecutors are fighting over who gets the suspects now that they're finally in custody. Seven jurisdictions will file or have already filed murder charges, even though Montgomery County, Maryland, was the site of the most shootings, including the first one. Murder indictments were handed up today in two Virginia counties, Spotsylvania and Hanover. And the federal government is now looking into possible charges linked to the demand for $10 million.
Joining us now to prevent all of this from giving me a giant headache: our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
This sounds to me as if it is just a childish game of oneupmanship.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was really funny.
During one of the press conferences today, the prosecutor from Hanover County went out of his way to say, "Well, I'd like to thank the U.S. attorney and the other Virginia prosecutors," very obviously not thanking the Maryland prosecutors. This is really -- you used to live in Washington. You know how the Virginia and Maryland suburbs fight all the time.
CHUNG: Sure.
TOOBIN: That is what is happening here.
CHUNG: And, obviously, the Montgomery County prosecutor was the first to file on Friday.
TOOBIN: Well, he was the first of the sniper suspects. He was after Alabama.
CHUNG: It was Alabama. Oh, my goodness, yes. You're so right.
TOOBIN: Yes. That's right.
So, he is the first of the sniper jurisdictions to file. And he, of course, most importantly, has six murders in his county. And that's the best card he has to play in trying to get this case first.
CHUNG: So, is the federal government going to make a decision?
TOOBIN: You know, as a legal matter, it is not clear who is ultimately in charge.
But one of the legal truisms that is not in the law books but really true is, don't mess with Uncle Sam. The federal government is really going to decide who gets this. And this Justice Department is deeply committed to the death penalty. And the death penalty very much favors the Virginia jurisdictions.
CHUNG: Well, we're going talk to someone coming up and we're going to deal with the issue of whether or not knowing that the death penalty is a possibility could affect the trial. And I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. So we'll get to that in just a second.
Isn't there a clear possibility that Malvo will plea-bargain in some way? It just seems look a no-brainer.
TOOBIN: It does, because he's only 17 -- or, it turns out, he may be 18 -- and Muhammad is 41.
But what makes a plea-bargain especially complicated in this case is that, if you represent Malvo, you have to cut a deal with every single jurisdiction, because, if you make a deal with Maryland and say, "I will testify in your trial," the prosecutors in Hanover, Spotsylvania, all those other counties, they may say: "Fine. You don't have any deal with us. We're still seeking the death penalty."
So it is going to be extremely complicated to work out a plea- bargain, not impossible, but it will take a long time.
CHUNG: And, in Virginia, if convicted, someone who is 17? TOOBIN: Big difference. In Virginia, 17-year-olds can get the death penalty. In Maryland, not possible.
CHUNG: OK, Jeffrey, I want to pause for a moment, so we can get some firsthand perspective on how to defend a case such as this.
Robert Nigh was defense attorney for Oklahoma city bomber Timothy McVeigh. And he joins us now from Tulsa.
Thank you, Mr. Nigh.
I was just talking to Jeffrey Toobin about the whole issue of the death penalty. Isn't it true that if a jury is looking at that possibility, that it could clearly affect the way it deliberates?
ROBERT NIGH, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR TIMOTHY MCVEIGH: Certainly. It gives an entirely different complexion to the whole case. It seems very early to be talking about the death penalty. We haven't even sorted through the facts yet.
CHUNG: All right, well, let's get to the whole idea that this is a case in which we can venture to say that public opinion is against these two suspects. And, in fact, the shootings have stopped. So the public may very well indeed believe that these two men are guilty. How do you defend someone who has this kind of force running against him?
NIGH: You have to concentrate on the process and insist that the process be fair and that we have a real trial, instead of a formality.
And I think that there are two areas that you can concentrate on in the beginning. The first is the passage of time. We need to allow our fact-finding to be based upon reason and common sense instead of emotion. And we need some time to pass before there is a trial. And then the second issue is the place where the case is tried.
TOOBIN: But, Rob, you're talking about a state -- states like Virginia and Maryland that are small. You got the McVeigh case moved from Oklahoma City all the way to Denver. Where are you going to go in Maryland?
NIGH: Your point is unquestionably true. And, for that reason, I think that you have to rely first upon the passage of time in an effort to make the system have a chance of being fair.
TOOBIN: How much time do you think is fair?
NIGH: At a minimum, a year. But greater time than that, I think, is appropriate in this case, first, because of all the defense investigation that is going to have to be conducted; but, secondly, to allow some of our wounds to heal and to allow some of the emotion to dissipate and some of the preconceived ideas to go away.
CHUNG: Mr. Nigh, what advice would you give the two defense attorneys in this case, beyond the entire question of change of venue?
NIGH: That's difficult from the outside looking in.
And the attorneys that have the job of representing either one of these individuals will, of course, be in the best position to make the right decisions. But, from a distance, I think that anyone would say that what we all have to focus upon is the fundamentals of the process and what we hope that our system is about. And we hope that it is about fairness. And if we can all keep our eye on that ball, then we're all going to win.
CHUNG: All right, back to the original question that I asked, the very first one. Since we were jumping ahead, can you tell us if indeed these two suspects, or one, faces the possibility, if he did indeed -- if he is found guilty and faces the death penalty, how does that affect the jury?
NIGH: Well, the potential jurors will have to examine what they really believe about the death penalty.
I think that, most of us, when we think about the death penalty, think about it in abstract terms, without having to consider, if we were a juror on a case, whether we could impose it. And I think that our ideas about the death penalty have changed dramatically in the recent past. We know that innocent people have been convicted and probably executed. And we know that we make mistakes.
And we know that there is racial disparity in the death penalty. And that has caused a lot of us to reexamine our beliefs. And the potential jurors in this case are going to have to do that on a very personal and realistic level. And that's one consideration that they're going to face from the very beginning, if it is a death penalty case.
CHUNG: Robert Nigh, thank you.
And, Jeffrey Toobin, as always, thank you.
Still ahead, another case that gripped the nation: the two defendants, two young brothers, accused of killing their father. For the first time, the mother of Derek and Alex King tells her story on national television.
ANNOUNCER: Next: "Cracking the Case," the story of the killer who vanished for 18 years without a trace. Then the twist: what finally got him caught -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: For a while, it seemed as though the D.C. area sniper case might never be cracked. And it might not have been if not for a tip that police say came from the snipers themselves.
As we wrap up our series on "Cracking the Case" tonight, we're going to look at a killer who also left a tip behind after deciding he believed in heaven so much that his family would be better off if he sent them there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG (voice-over): An affluent New Jersey suburb, streets lined with mansions, it was quite a step up for John List and his family. Their 18-room house, though old, was grand. The family lived a normal life, List, a soft-spoken bank vice president and Sunday school teacher, his wife, Helen, daughter, Patricia, sons John and Frederick, and List's mother, Alma.
TIMOTHY BENFORD, AUTHOR, "RIGHTEOUS CARNAGE: THE LIST MURDERS": Image meant a lot to John List. There's no question about that. But his own self-esteem meant something. He wanted to show he was a provider; he was able to give his family the better life.
CHUNG: But that ended on November 9, 1971.
BENFORD: He killed his wife first -- she was having coffee or tea at the table -- then went upstairs and killed his mother.
CHUNG: After the murders, incredibly, John List ate lunch. Meanwhile, his children were making their way home from school, home to a horror they never could have imagined.
BENFORD: One by one as they came home, he shot them.
CHUNG: After he was done, he meticulously cleaned up the crime scene, methodically lined up all the bodies, and then List wrote a five-page confession to his pastor. He left the note with the bodies.
BENFORD: He wanted to explain that he wasn't just a cold-blooded killer. He hadn't murdered them in a fit of rage. There was a reason and there was a logic for why he was doing it.
CHUNG: List admitted that he was living beyond his means. Foreclosure loomed, welfare inevitable. He felt the only way he could properly provide for his family was to kill them. It was his belief they would go to heaven and he could confess his sins later. If he had killed himself, he thought, he wouldn't go to heaven.
BENFORD: All of these things made him realize the only way to preserve their salvation was to send them to heaven now. And that was the most incriminating piece of evidence against him, his own handwritten letter.
CHUNG: It seemed like an open-and-shut case. Police had a handwritten confession. But there was one problem. List had carefully planned his escape: cashing in savings bonds, making phone calls to explain the family would be out of town. He even stopped the mail and newspaper deliveries.
His crime went unnoticed for a month, until friends and neighbors were alarmed by the family's long absence, enough time for List to escape and start a new life in Colorado.
BENFORD: It was not easy to find him, because he was not the kind of a person who would normally attract attention anyway. So he slid in and fit in with the wallpaper. He was not conspicuous, no matter where he was.
CHUNG: Law enforcement had a false lead when List's car was found at a New York airport. Thinking he made his getaway on an airplane, they searched as far away as Europe and South America. Police and FBI filled 10 volumes with dead ends and incorrect sightings.
The case made headlines. Despite a nationwide manhunt, authorities were stumped. List remained free in Colorado working as an accountant, even marrying again. True to character, he was quiet, yet alert, eventually moving to Virginia. Then came a new television program, "America's Most Wanted." Ironically, it was List's favorite show. He called it educational and recommended it to friends.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "AMERICA'S MOST WANTED")
JOHN WALSH, HOST: If you know anything about John List...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: People across America tuned in that night, including John List. What happened next shocked everyone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Joining us now to tell us how they cracked the case are Westfield Police Chief Bernard Tracy and forensics artist Frank Bender.
Gentlemen, thank you for being with us.
Chief Tracy, I was very surprised that you actually went to "America's Most Wanted" for help. You had tried "Unsolved Mysteries." And they wouldn't pick it up. This was an old case. So what happened?
BERNARD TRACY, WESTFIELD, NEW JERSEY, POLICE CHIEF: Well, "Unsolved Mysteries" thought it was too old. And "America's Most Wanted" seemed like our last opportunity to get it aired nationwide. And it proved to work.
CHUNG: And you came up with the idea of creating a bust. And this man right next to you, Mr. Bender, did.
How were you able to age him or figure out how he would have aged? Because it really did look like him.
FRANK BENDER, FORENSICS ARTIST: Well, I've done it successfully before for the U.S. Marshal Service.
And I was asked to do it for the "America's Most Wanted" show. And what I do is, I put myself, in a sense, in the shoes of the criminal. I try to think like the individual, what the person eats, what they drink.
CHUNG: Really? BENDER: Do they have drug abuse habits? All of this I try to take into consideration. And I'll bring in a criminal psychologist or I'll do whatever it takes.
Like, in the John List case, I went to the University of Pennsylvania, met with Dr. Whitaker (ph) and Dr. Bartlett (ph), two top rhinoplastic surgeons, to help me with the mastoid scar that was on his neck. So it is good teamwork.
CHUNG: Chief Tracy, do you think it was the bust that led people to -- it was a neighbor, actually, a former neighbor of John List who called you.
TRACY: Right. I believe the bust, along with keeping this case alive. We got it out in the media. Some of the tabloids picked it. And "America's Most Wanted" did an excellent job presenting the show. The bust, I think, gave it real life. And altogether, I think that's what resolved this case.
CHUNG: Now, I had interviewed him when he was in prison. And he said that he thought he would be caught in two or three weeks. Why do you think it took so long?
TRACY: Well, he had a month head start. And I think that alone threw the police off. And, initially, they looked overseas and other places.
CHUNG: And you weren't on the case then, of course. You came on later.
TRACY: Yes, that's correct.
CHUNG: And where is the bust now, Mr. Bender?
BENDER: I believe it is in the FBI's museum in their headquarters in Washington.
CHUNG: Where it should be.
BENDER: Right.
CHUNG: So, Chief Tracy, just take us to the end now. He's serving how long? It's a life prison term, right?
TRACY: Right. He has five life terms in Trenton State Prison right now in New Jersey. And he will pass away in prison.
CHUNG: How many days later after "America's Most Wanted" was on did you capture him?
TRACY: Ten days later. The FBI located him in Virginia.
CHUNG: That's pretty impressive, huh?
TRACY: Yes.
CHUNG: Chief Tracy, Mr. Bender, thank you so much for being with us.
And still ahead: a footnote to the sniper story. Who would have guessed it? Chief Charles Moose now has a fan club.
Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: Next: For the first time, Alex and Derek King's mother talks about her sons and Rosie O'Donnell's role in their case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARINO: Yes, I'm very thankful that she's -- and that she even took the time to even do anything so generous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT exclusive when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We'll be right back with our exclusive interview with Kelly Marino, the mother of Derek and Alex King.
But first, we want to share a quirky footnote to the sniper investigation. Fans of Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose have set up a site called ChiefMoose.com that pays tribute to the chief and to all things Moose. They say they intend it as a gesture of respect. They also sell merchandise which the site says will benefit the snipers' victims fund.
And we'll be back in a moment with the mother of Derek and Alex King.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: A Florida judge this month overturned the convictions of Derek and Alex King on charges they killed their father and set their house on fair to cover up their crime.
In a moment, for the first time on national television, the boys' mother will tell her side of the story. It is a story that begins with a blaze at the home of a 40-year-old print shop worker named Terry King just outside Pensacola. Firefighters found Terry King dead in his recliner. Shortly thereafter, 13-year-old Derek and 12-year- old Alex turned themselves in and confessed to killing their own father.
Derek said he struck his father with an aluminum bat about 10 times. Then the boys changed their story, retracting their confessions and blaming the murder on Ricky Chavis, a family friend and convicted child molester, who let them hang out and smoke pot with him. And that's not all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ALEX KING, SON OF KELLY MARINO: He said that he loved me and, like, he said we would do something -- like we were gay and stuff. And, like, he was saying things like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Chavis denied it all.
Then who would prosecute try for murder? In an extraordinary move, prosecutors tried two murder cases, one against Chavis and once against the boys, using two different so-called sets of facts. Even though Chavis was acquitted, the verdict was kept secret until the jury in the boys' case issued its verdict.
The boys were found guilty of second-degree murder and faced up to 60 years or life in prison. Then former talk show host Rosie O'Donnell got involved. She hired a high-profile lawyer, Jayne Weintraub, to help win the boys a new trial. It worked. The very same judge who presided over the two murder trials overturned the boys' convictions and ordered prosecutors and defense attorneys to come up with a solution.
The judge says, if there's no solution, he may have to order a new trial. Ricky Chavis, who maintains his innocence, goes on trial in February over allegations he had a physical relationship with Alex.
As for Alex and Derek's mother, Kelly Marino, she has two other children from another relationship and now lives in Lexington, Kentucky.
She recently decided to tell me her side of the story, for the first time on national television.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: Kelly, thank you for being with us.
Kelly, do you think that your sons killed their father?
MARINO: No, I do not. I have not thought that at all.
CHUNG: Why not?
MARINO: Well, after visiting them that first night, you know, I talked with them and I could tell right then they were lying.
CHUNG: You went to visit them in jail and they did tell you that they killed their dad.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: Derek said that he hit him and that he started the fire in the house.
MARINO: Yes. And Derek told me -- I mean, he said -- you know, he said he hit him with a bat. And he said, "Then I threw the bat on the bed." And he said, "I threw a match on the bed and left. Then we hitch hiked," to a town that's real close to ours.
CHUNG: All right. Is it possible that Terry was abusing them and they wanted to kill him to get back at him?
MARINO: No, not at all. Terry -- I was with him for eight years. I always admired his character and -- you know, and the way he was as a father. He was very consistent. If something was wrong once, it was wrong. He never raised his voice to the boys, ever.
CHUNG: Who do you believe did kill -- if you don't think that your boys killed their father, who do you think killed Terry?
MARINO: Oh, I think Rick Chavis did, and I think there's a couple of other people who, if they were not there, I really firmly believe that they were involved -- you know, they knew about it, if nothing else.
CHUNG: When you saw your son Alex testifying, talking about his homosexual relationship with Ricky Chavis...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And did you willingly engage in sex with Ricky Chavis?
KING: Yes, sir, I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: ... what did you think?
MARINO: I was just sickened. It just makes me sick. Ricky Chavis thinks he did nothing wrong. I mean, it's just -- it's sickening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: He said that my dad was dead. He said that he had killed my dad to protect us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Do you think that your sons lied to protect Ricky Chavis?
MARINO: Yes, I do. And they still don't say bad things, you know, about him to this day, because he -- you know, I'm told, he is a very charming person, although I had never seen this man in person until court.
CHUNG: Let's go back to the beginning. You met Terry -- you were only 18 years old. After living with him for a while you became pregnant and you had Derek, and then you had Alex. Then after that you had two children by another man; twins.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: And you were there with Terry raising four children.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: One day you decided to leave. Why did you leave?
MARINO: It wasn't that simple. I woke up just one day and I said, Well, you know, I want to just run away."
It's just after I had Alex, my mood -- I mean, he had to stay in the hospital for 10 days after I had him. You know, I was upset about that. And I thought it was just taking me longer to recover, you know, over that.
And anyhow, the depression just went on and on and on. And, you know, it would get better on some days. I'd feel better. And I'd be like, "Oh, I'm fine." I didn't know I was depressed. I didn't know I was clinically depressed.
CHUNG: So tell us, when did you reach the conclusion that you should leave the family? And how old were the boys at the time?
MARINO: It was in '93. Let's see, Derek was 5, Alex was 4.
It wasn't that I just, you know, up and left. It's just -- I'm not defending myself, believe me. I was just -- aside from feeling bad and being, you know, extremely stressed and -- oh, dear God, we had no car, we had, you know, nothing here and no air conditioner in this house with no insulation.
CHUNG: Derek went to live with foster parents and you didn't see him for seven and a half years. How could you not keep in touch with him?
MARINO: In the beginning I did. You know, I'd call him, you know, like, at least every other day.
CHUNG: Kelly, there are probably people out there who are saying, "The reason why they're in this mess is because you left them and you hadn't been taking care of them. You had not been a mother to them."
MARINO: I was very much a mother to them when I was with them. I was very loving and very, you know, nurturing -- very lovable. I mean, you know, I'm -- my children, you know, just play, hug, everything all day, and wrestle, and all that stuff, you know, that moms do with their children.
CHUNG: But there were seven and a half long years...
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: ... that you didn't even have contact with Derek. But didn't you want to see him?
MARINO: Oh, with all my heart. I sent letters and cards. And she told me -- she said, "Well, he just looked at them and just threw them aside." And so, you know...
CHUNG: That's his foster mother.
MARINO: Yes.
CHUNG: But, Kelly, there are people out there who might say you're just trying to make excuses now and that, in fact, if you really cared about them you would have brought them to live with you.
MARINO: Not true.
I'm not trying to make any excuses for anything, because I take full responsibility for anything, you know, and all the hurt and pain, you know, I caused my children, Terry, my family.
CHUNG: Do you think your boys love you?
MARINO: Yes, I do. They tell me that and that Derek had asked for me from the -- you know, after the verdict, he asked for me over and over.
CHUNG: Are you glad that Rosie O'Donnell has stepped in and gotten a lawyer to help out?
MARINO: Yes, I'm very thankful that she's -- and that she even took the time to even do anything so generous. And it's very much appreciated.
CHUNG: The biggest surprise, of course, was when their conviction was thrown out. Did you have any idea that that was coming?
MARINO: No, I didn't. It was an answer to prayer after a year of, you know, just praying and hoping.
CHUNG: Do you think your boys understand what happened to them?
MARINO: No, I don't think so.
CHUNG: That they were convicted of murder, and then the conviction was overturned.
MARINO: No, I just -- I don't think they understand that. I do know the only thing they really understand is that they're, you know, in that cell. You know, they're in that cell and they just want to, you know, be outside and play and go places and do things, like other children. And, you know, they can't wait for that.
CHUNG: How long has it been since you've talked to them?
MARINO: Let's see, I talked with them -- was it Thursday? -- Thursday was the last time I talked to them, I think.
CHUNG: Last Thursday?
MARINO: Yes. CHUNG: Have you been talking to them as much as once a week?
MARINO: No. I have not.
Hopefully, one day the whole story -- you know, I kept diary after diary throughout all these years, and journals -- I mean, not journals. And I plan to put it all together in a book and tell, you know, what happened start to finish and just everything.
CHUNG: Kelly Marino, thank you so much for being with us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: We'll be back with a few thoughts about tomorrow.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tomorrow: an inside look at the sons of Saddam Hussein. Is tyranny a family business? Did one of them really shoot an uncle? What the sons of Saddam have done to their own people.
And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": the latest on the sniper case.
Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
troubled teens and whether or not she believes they killed their father.>
