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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Federal Government Charges Sniper Suspect; Robert Blake's Former Attorney Speaks Out

Aired October 29, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight: The suspects are leveled with federal charges.

ANNOUNCER: The case against the sniper suspects goes to the feds, the U.S. government now filing death penalty charges against John Allen Muhammad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is a very serious matter. I consider the matters charged in the federal indictment today to be atrocities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus: Was this the first victim in a nationwide killing spree?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Tacoma Police Department now consider John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo as suspects in the Keenya Cook homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The sniper suspects linked to another murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody came to my house and they shot my niece, cold-blooded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The tense hostage crisis: a lethal dose of gas, and the American in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Another twist in the Robert Blake murder case: His attorney hangs it up. Tonight, Harland Braun tells Connie why.

And the real story of Saddam Hussein's sons. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one in Iraq is worse than Uday, even his father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is tyranny a family business?

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

We'll get to all of that in just a few minutes, but first we want to update you on a pair of breaking news stories.

Off Florida, a boat overloaded with Haitian refugees edges up to the Key Biscayne coastline this afternoon. Everyone jumped into the shallow water, heading for the beach and a nearby highway.

CNN's Mark Potter is in our Miami bureau with the latest -- Mark.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Connie.

Well, the situation now seems to be under control. Police say that they have rounded up most, if not all, of the Haitian refugees who came ashore; 208 of them are in Border Patrol custody right now. Another 21 are being held by the Coast Guard. The 208 in Border Patrol custody are being take to the Krome Avenue detention facility, a processing facility outside Miami, where they will be given food, water. And then they'll begin their asylum proceedings.

The Coast Guard has actually taken this boat that you are seeing right now to its base and is still looking in the water to make sure that no one else is there. They have reported no fatalities and only a few very minor injuries.

Now, as we saw a moment ago in those pictures, the people began jumping off the boat after it ran aground about 20 yards away from the bridge that separates -- that joins the Miami area with Key Biscayne. They had been spotted by the Coast Guard and then made for shore, ran aground. The people began jumping in the water.

And the first groups that made it to shore then got on to the bridge and began running through the rush-hour traffic, some of them approaching the motorists, appearing to be asking for rides out of the area. Very quickly, local police and federal agents converged on the scene. It was fairly easy to control the area, because, as you can see, it is a bridge and they were able to gather up most of the people fairly quickly.

And, again, they were put on buses and were sent, most of them, to the detention facility. Now, they will be processed. They will be questioned about where they came from, whether they came directly from Haiti or the Bahamas. They'll also be questioned about whether any of them qualifies for asylum. That's a touchy issue here.

The ACLU and local advocates say that they will be gathering lawyers to try to help the Haitians. But if past is prologue, we can say that most of these Haitians will probably be sent back to Haiti, ultimately -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, Mark Potter, CNN's reporter down in Miami in Florida, thank you.

We told you there is another breaking news story tonight. That's happening in Minnesota, where thousands of people have gathered for a tribute to the late Senator Paul Wellstone. As you know, he died in a plane crash last Friday.

CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl is at the University of Minnesota's Williams Arena in Minneapolis -- good evening, Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Connie.

An incredible memorial here. As you can see, I'm outside the arena. And there are thousands of people over the course of several blocks who cannot get into the arena because it is packed to capacity. They are watching outside on a monitor out here. Inside the arena: 14,000 seats filled, many of them with a who's-who of political America.

You have got inside this arena: Bill Clinton, former president, his wife, Hillary Clinton, also Al Gore. More than half of the United States Senate is in that arena, including Democrats as well as Republicans. Republican leader Trent Lott is among those in attendance.

And they are coming -- as much as you can feel a sense of celebration of Wellstone's life, as much as it is a memorial. Also in that arena is former Vice President Walter Mondale, who we expect that tomorrow the Democrats will choose to replace Wellstone on the ballot. And you'll have here, Connie, perhaps the shortest campaign in political history, or at least one of them, a six-day campaign that will start tomorrow for this Senate seat that Paul Wellstone used to hold -- Connie.

CHUNG: Jonathan, there was some awkwardness between the Wellstone family and Vice President Cheney. Can you tell us about it?

KARL: Yes.

The vice president offered to come to this memorial service, but the Wellstone family said that they would not like him to attend. There were a couple of reasons. One was really security. This would have turned this into a Secret Service event and changed the tone of the event. The family did not want that.

But there has been some bitterness here. Democrats and the Wellstone family believe Republicans got back into politics too quickly after Wellstone's death on Friday. And they were upset about that. They thought that that was part of the reason why they didn't want the vice president to be at this event -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl, thank you.

There will be much more on the memorial service for Senator Wellstone on "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN" at 10:00 p.m. Eastern time.

Tonight, our top story: The sniper case has gotten bigger. And according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, the ultimate penalty should be available in this case. John Muhammad was hit with federal extortion charges that could bring the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHCROFT: I consider the matters charged in the federal indictment today to be atrocities. They're tragedies. They are very serious. And it's important that we have available the very most serious penalties in a setting like this. And we want to be able to make sure that the system of justice operates effectively to make sure that the most serious penalties are available to address very serious crimes like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: John Lee Malvo was not named because he is a juvenile. And he would not be subject to a federal death penalty.

Tacoma, Washington, has also gotten in on it, naming Muhammad and Malvo as suspects in a February murder and a synagogue shooting.

Joining us with details on the federal charges is CNN justice corporate Kelli Arena.

Kelli, can you explain the federal charges?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Connie.

The first and most important is the use of a firearm during a crime of violence which results in death. That is the federal charge that carries a death penalty sentence. Other charges, main charges, include conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, conspiracy to affect interstate commerce by extortion and threats of violence, and also discharging a firearm in a school zone.

Obviously, these come amid other charges as well, but the most important, again, is the use of a firearm which resulted in death. Again, that carries the death penalty charge.

CHUNG: Kelli, does this mean the states who want to prosecute these two men have to stand down?

ARENA: No, Connie. That's two very different situations. You know that there are four counties in Maryland and Virginia who have already filed their own charges. But the decision of who gets to go to court first has nothing to do with this federal complaint today. Justice Department sources say that it will probably be the state of Virginia, a county in Virginia that will get to go first, although that decision has not been made just yet. And, specifically, they are looking at two counties in particular, Prince William or Fairfax County.

Prosecutors there have lots of experience, lots of death penalty experience. And so that decision could come either later this week or possibly next week -- but two very separate issues.

CHUNG: And who has the final word on who goes ahead?

ARENA: Well, the Justice Department. The two individuals remain in federal custody. And so, therefore, Justice decides who gets to -- who they would transfer those two individuals to, which jurisdiction they would transfer them to.

CHUNG: Kelli, the federal complaint also included information about what was found in Muhammad's car. Can you tell us about that?

ARENA: Well, they found a GPS system in the car. They found two-way radios in the car. Obviously...

CHUNG: Let me just tell everyone what that is: global positional system.

ARENA: That's right.

CHUNG: And why don't you explain what that is?

ARENA: It sort of allows you to figure out which location you're going. You can chart locations and your direction and which way you want to go and how to get to each location. So that was actually found outside the car.

There was a computer found in the car, of course the weapon that at least investigators say was used in the commission of the shootings in the Washington area. And investigators say, at least according to the affidavit, that the two were living in that automobile.

CHUNG: And what about the main defense attorney for Muhammad? He's a public defender. He came out and talked to reporters. What did he say?

ARENA: That's right.

Well, he said a lot of stuff that we haven't heard lately. He described Muhammad as a 41-year-old father, an American who had served in the Persian Gulf, a person who had never been convicted of any other crime before. And he asked Americans to have some patience, to let the legal process work, reminding everyone that that includes representation by counsel, a fair trial and the presumption of innocence.

Beyond that, he went through process and said that the next date that everyone looks forward to is Tuesday, when Muhammad will stand for a detention hearing.

CHUNG: All right, Kelli Arena, thank you so much.

ARENA: You're welcome.

CHUNG: The Tacoma case we mentioned earlier joins a growing list of local jurisdictions jockeying for the accused snipers. They range from Alabama to Maryland. Montgomery County, Maryland, has filed six charges of first-degree murder against the two; in Prince George's County, no charges yet for the middle school shooting. In Virginia, Spotsylvania County has indicted Muhammad for two shootings on one charge of murder and one charge of conspiracy to commit murder.

For the shooting in Prince William County, charges include capital murder. Fairfax County has not filed charges yet for the Home Depot murder there. Hanover County has filed charges for the shooting there, including attempted murder. And Montgomery, Alabama, with two shootings during a robbery, has filed a charge of capital murder as well. For the murder in Washington, D.C., no charges are filed yet.

So how does this get worked out with the new federal charges? We're joined now by Ellen Brooks, district attorney of Montgomery County, Alabama -- and just to be clear, it is called Montgomery County -- Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore; and our own lawyer, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, let's start with you.

Honestly, when I hear each of these prosecutors make his or her case, I think they sound bloodthirsty. "I can fry him faster and better than you can."

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's like nothing I've ever seen before, this sort of competition about the death penalty, who can go first.

But what's important to remember here is that the Justice Department, which ultimately has the final say, feels exactly the same way about the death penalty. This is a very pro-death penalty Justice Department. And they unapologetically say, in effect, they are going to give this case first to the jurisdiction that is likely to get the death penalty, not -- to give the death penalty, not just to Muhammad, but to 17-year-old Malvo as well.

CHUNG: Mr. Kilgore, I read your statement. And, honestly, I have to tell you, it does sound as if you are saying, "We're the ones who can deliver the death penalty, so choose us."

JERRY KILGORE, VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are the state that has the options, the opportunities. We have experience in prosecuting these high-profile cases and giving jurors the option of imposing the death penalty.

We know the Justice Department has all the facts. They reviewed all of the laws that apply in each and every jurisdiction. And they understand the track records of each and every jurisdiction. Virginia is one of those states that we don't apologize for our stand against violent crime. We stand with the victims in Virginia. And we are ready, willing and able to prosecute these cases.

CHUNG: Ellen Brooks, we're told that you believe that Nathaniel Osbourne was also included in the shooting in Montgomery, Alabama. If you are able to proceed along those lines, how does it strengthen your case?

ELLEN BROOKS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ALABAMA: There has been some discussion that a third person may have been involved in our capital murder and attempted murder charges.

I believe that, if there are others responsible for our cases or any others, that they all should be brought to justice and held accountable for what they did. If in fact that's true in Montgomery, Alabama, and we can prove it better than any other state, then we're due consideration. I don't think we should rush to judgment yet. It's premature.

TOOBIN: General Kilgore, isn't there a possibility, under Virginia law, that if the feds go first with their federal case, Virginia couldn't prosecute the case at all?

KILGORE: There's a possibility. We have a preemption statute in Virginia that says, if the federal government files an indictment or -- on information before we do, then we certainly are precluded from going forward.

We have filed indictments in several of our jurisdictions. Fairfax County has not, which I believe explains why the federal government came forth with just a complaint today. They are giving Virginia an opportunity. We've been working with them since last week to remind them of this statute. They've been very helpful to us in this process.

TOOBIN: Now, you represent the whole state. Which county do you think should go first? Who should offer the first prosecution?

KILGORE: I'm not going to be in a position of choosing among Virginia counties. They all offer very seasoned prosecutors who are ready and able to try these individuals. But, certainly, Prince William, Fairfax and Spotsylvania had the murders occur in their counties. Hanover had the shooting. And, fortunately, in Hanover County, the individual did survive.

CHUNG: Jeffrey, is there any chance that, if the federal government does not succeed in a conviction and the trials are going parallel -- is that possible, that it will parallel? And would one affect the other?

TOOBIN: What's interesting about the federal charges is that, if you just had each county proceed separately, Maryland, Virginia, Alabama, there would be no potential double-jeopardy problems, potential -- barring further prosecutions.

The federal case, because it includes all the murders, does have the possibility of potentially paralyzing some of the other cases. So that's why it sounds like, as Attorney General Kilgore was saying, they are very much leaning towards letting Virginia go first, so that risk wouldn't be present at all.

CHUNG: I see.

Ellen Brooks, Jerry Kilgore and Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much for being with us.

When we come back: the attempt to resolve a hostage situation. The gas pumped into a theater ends up being deadly. What was it? And why are they keeping it a secret?

We'll get some answers right after this. Stay with us.

Still ahead: another twist in a Hollywood murder mystery. Blake's attorney quits the case.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: More than three days after the mystery gas used by Russian troops killed 115 hostages in the storming of a Moscow theater, Russia's government is still not saying what kind of gas it was. And they might never say, because they don't want terrorists to prepare for it.

Russia is still in mourning, even as questions are arising there and here about what Russian police did and how they did it. Even though the gas is believed to have contained an opiate, the Bush administration, which has been tough on individual drug use, has not condemned Russia for its deadly use of the unknown drug.

CNN's Mike Hanna has been covering this story in Moscow.

Mike, any clue as to what was contained in that gas?

MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Connie, it was a bit like a medical detective story, and a very tragic one, indeed.

When those hundreds of hostages started arriving in hospitals, doctors began treating them. Initially, they thought, assumed it was some kind of nerve gas that was used. They used an antidote for that. It didn't work. Hostages continued to die, many getting increasingly ill.

They then tried a variety of other drugs and, eventually, in desperation, used a drug called naloxone, which is actually used for treating the overdose of heroin or morphine. This actually worked. The indication then was that this was some type of opiate, some kind of narcotic. The Russians refuse to give any details as to exactly what this drug was.

All they've told CNN is that it was not of military origin, that it was some kind of analgesic used generally in surgery, but it was pumped in massive concentrations into that theater to ensure that those Chechen rebels holding 800 people hostage there were not able to detonate the massive amounts of explosive that they had -- Connie.

CHUNG: Now, the U.S. ambassador to Moscow has chimed in with many countries. International pressure is on Russia to reveal exactly what kind of nerve gas -- what kind of gas it was. How is the government reacting there?

HANNA: Well, the Russian government is standing by its position that, to reveal the details or the formula of this drug would be perhaps to assist terrorists, should they try another similar operation.

Now, the U.S. ambassador here not critical of that operation itself, but he has been critical of the lack of information disseminated by the Russians in the wake of the operation: the fact that the doctors did not know what the chemical was, the fact that families and friends of those hostages, some of them did not even know where their loved ones were, whether they were alive or dead.

And the U.S. ambassador has made very clear that this lack of information created major problems and the fact that doctors were not told what drug was used actually could have cost more lives than were necessary -- Connie.

CHUNG: Mike, how have the Russian people reacted? Do they support what the government has done?

HANNA: Well, this is a very interesting situation. The Russian people generally have welcomed and have actually praised the way that that hostage siege was ended.

They have given great support to Russian President Vladimir Putin for his decision to go in and end that siege, Russians generally believing that that scenario was going to end in bloodshed anyway. They did understand the complications of the situation; 800 people's lives were at stake. And, in fact, there's been an opinion poll released, the first one, which shows that 85 percent of Russians support President Putin in his handling of the hostage crisis.

That being said, the mass of Russian public are absolutely furious about what happened after the operation, the lack of information, the fact that doctors were not given the names of the drugs, the fact that Russian authorities didn't give information about what hostages were in what hospital, whether people were alive or dead.

So there's two separate things going on here: the operation itself seen as a success, seen as a massive blow against terrorism; but what happened after the operation seen as a disaster and an absolutely tragic disaster -- but Vladimir Putin clearly not taking public blame for this -- Connie.

CHUNG: And, finally, Mike, there were American casualties.

HANNA: Yes, indeed. There were at least four American casualties, two of them permanent residents or green card holders.

Only one of them has been identified. And he was a 39-year-old from Oklahoma city, Sandy Booker, and a sad story here. He came to Moscow to pick up his fiancee, the woman he was engaged to, to take her back home to the United States. He went to that theater with his fiancee that night. And, subsequently, he died as a result of the gas inhaled during that operation, we believe.

There has been an autopsy performed. But the results of the autopsy are not out. It was in fact his fiancee who identified him -- so a man caught in the wrong place very much at the wrong time.

Another American citizen who was in that theater is recovering in hospital, we are told. Another person who has got a permanent residence, a green card, also died as a result of the gas inhalation, while a fourth American, another green card holder, is also recovering well from the effects of the drug -- Connie.

CHUNG: CNN's Mike Hanna, in Moscow, thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And joining us now with some insight on this gas mystery is Dr. Marc Siegel, assistant professor of medicine at NYU Medical School.

Thank you, Dr. Siegel, for being with us.

DR. MARC SIEGEL, NYU MEDICAL SCHOOL: Thanks, Connie.

CHUNG: If indeed this gas is an opiate derivative, how would it affect a person?

SIEGEL: Well, first of all, it would probably affect breathing. And people would have a lot of trouble breathing.

Now, they cannot regulate the amount of gases in any particular area of the theater. You understand that, if this gas is used in an operating theater in an operating room, we can regulate the exact amount of this gas that's given. But in a theater, if they are going to pump it in, it could overwhelm people in certain parts of the theater and affect their breathing. And if their breathing is affected, that may affect oxygen flow to the brain.

CHUNG: Now, the controversial part, of course, is no information. So when the doctors received all of these patients, they had no idea what to use. Their hands were clearly tied, weren't they?

SIEGEL: Absolutely.

And, as Mike Hanna was pointing out, there's been an outcry of what emergency personnel were available, what doctors knew. On the scene, if this in fact is an opiate derivative, they could use a drug called naloxone or Narcan. If they give it right away, it would reverse the effect of the opiate immediately.

CHUNG: And save these people's lives.

SIEGEL: Absolutely. And they could give it further on down the line to make sure that the opiate doesn't come back and reaffect them.

CHUNG: Dr. Siegel, what is the time limit to administer that antidote?

SIEGEL: Well, the medication itself, if it's used as a gas, would still last 24 to 72 hours. So this medication that would reverse it is short-acting, but you can give it in intravenous form over the whole period of time. So doctors receiving these patients in the hospital that knew of this would put them on an intravenous drip of the medicine to reverse the gas, keep them on it for a few days, observe them, and they would probably be OK.

CHUNG: I think the thing that frightens all of us here in the United States is: Could that be used on us? And does the United States even know about it? Is the U.S. military using it as well?

SIEGEL: Reports are that the U.S. military has this gas, that they've studied it and they are well aware of it. In fact, in medical school in Russia, doctors are trained to be prepared for many different kinds of gases.

CHUNG: And do you know if that antidote is available to doctors, if indeed something like this should happen to us?

SIEGEL: It's part of every emergency cart. It's available in every hospital in the country.

CHUNG: Dr. Marc Siegel, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Why did Robert Blake's defense attorney just quit? We'll ask him in just a moment.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: ruthless, cruel and violent. It's all part of the job of being the son of Saddam and possibly the next dictator of Iraq.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: With the world wondering who might replace Saddam Hussein, there is greater scrutiny now of the two men closest to him. That would be his own sons. And if you believe that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, you won't be surprised that these men have been accused of doing things just as awful as their father, and maybe even worse.

Here's CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For years in Baghdad's Byzantine labyrinth of power this man was favored to succeed his father, Uday Saddam Hussein, first son of the Iraqi president. But assassins nearly killed Uday in 1996. He was visited by his father in the hospital, and shortly afterwards CNN interviewed Uday about being heir apparent. This was his ominous reply.

UDAY HUSSEIN, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S SON (through translator): If that was not a question from you, from a foreigner, the person who spoke like that, even as a form of praise, would be questioned or punished.

AMANPOUR: Ruthless, violent and unprofessional. That's how former associates and others describe Uday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one in Iraq is worse than Uday, even his father. No one. You know, and you know, this is very natural, because he is so mean and so greedy. He uses cruelty to amuse himself.

AMANPOUR: Abbas al-Janabi man worked for Uday for 15 years before defecting to the U.K. in 1998. As press secretary and private secretary, Janabi had unusual access.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is so aggressive, and everybody knows that one day he killed his father's servant, and everybody knows one day that he shot his uncle, his own uncle.

AMANPOUR: Uday's sexual exploits are legendary, too. He is said to have taken women from their husbands, or fiances and families, and violently abused them.

LATIF YAHIA, AUTHOR, "I WAS SADDAM'S SON": Uday, everything is public. Everyone knows what he is doing, how he raped, how he stolen, how he do -- how he pick the girls, and just his life with girls, and you know, with the sex and drinking, and this is his life.

AMANPOUR: Latif Yahia claims to have worked as Uday's official body double, from 1987 to 1991. Iraqi officials and other dissidents deny his story, but this is not in dispute: In 1990, Yahia used the resemblance to travel to Kuwait and steal expensive cars. He said on Uday's orders. Baghdad said he was an impostor, and made him confess on television.

But Janabi, who was on Uday's official payroll, testifies to Uday's taste for dollars and corruption.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wherever you go, in any ministry, he has some people there, to facilitate his, you know, whatever he wants.

AMANPOUR: Janabi says Uday has raked off hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes and commissions on everything from contracts with the U.N. Oil for Food program designed to help the Iraqi people, to cigarettes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has an empire, in fact, inside the regime. Nobody can touch it.

AMANPOUR: Janabi says he finally defected when Uday accused him of cheating on a cigarette deal that he was negotiating for him.

Saddam Hussein allows Uday to wield power through his newspapers and TV stations and as the head of a militia called Saddam Fedayeen. But he was gradually replaced as favorite son and heir apparent by his younger brother, Qusay, who controls the security organization that keeps Saddam Hussein in power.

While Qusay is less showy, he, too, is known to be ruthless, having led the liquidation of hundreds of dissidents during the uprisings against Saddam Hussein after the Gulf War in 1991.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is very cruel on the opposition. Anybody who opposes his regime, his father's regime, you know. He has -- he will not hesitate a minute, you know, a second, to kill him.

AMANPOUR: Janabi believes the son could mobilize up to 6,000 men to defend his father should the regime come under attack again.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: In that report from Christiane Amanpour, the CNN reporter you saw being told that he would have been questioned or punished if he were an Iraqi was CNN international correspondent Ben Wedeman, who joins us now from Amman, Jordan, with more on the sons of Saddam.

Ben, thanks for being with us.

I tell you, when I saw that, I thought, oh, my gosh, how chilling. What was it like to meet Uday face to face?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a chilling experience in many respects.

He was polite. He was civil the whole time. But, normally, when you interview somebody, at some point, the ice breaks. There's a moment where there is a certain human communication. And I can tell you, I've interviewed people who have confessed to murder, to cannibals, and, at some point, the ice broke. But in my conversation with Uday, it was chilling the entire time. He didn't really express any sense of humor at all.

You could tell that this is somebody who is not used to talking on anybody's other -- on anybody else's terms. He talks only on his own terms -- Connie.

CHUNG: Ben, that assassination attempt on Uday, there were rumors or speculation that in fact it was his younger brother who ordered that assassination attempt. Do you know anything more about that?

WEDEMAN: No, nobody really knows what happened on that day in December 1996.

It was an odd incident, in the sense that it happened at a very busy intersection in downtown Baghdad. And the attackers disappeared, just simply ran through a back alley. Nobody really knows who was behind it. There's been speculation that it could have been his father, Saddam Hussein; it could have been his brother, Qusay; or it could have been a shadowy group.

But the Iraqis have never come forward and shown anybody, somebody who they said was certainly or definitely the people or person behind that assassination attempt.

CHUNG: There have been so many stories about Uday. But his younger brother is actually a touch mysterious, isn't he? No one really knows him as well.

WEDEMAN: No.

Unlike Uday, Qusay has never been somebody who has gone out in public. Uday, for instance, was a frequent visitor to many of Baghdad's bars and restaurants and hotels. And he's been in many public places. Qusay, on the other hand, is a very private person, rarely, if ever, seen in public, and normally just seen on Iraqi television.

So he is very much a mysterious individual, about whom very few people know much of anything.

CHUNG: Tell me, is there any possibility that the two of them would share power?

WEDEMAN: I would certainly doubt that. These are ruthless men. These are men, Qusay and Uday, who have grown up with absolute power. And, certainly, it would be hard to imagine the two of them somehow sharing power in Baghdad, in Iraq, in a country where it has a long tradition of absolute rulers.

And the idea of the two of them somehow being co-presidents of Iraq, I think many people would find difficult to imagine -- Connie.

CHUNG: I think one of the things that many of us here are concerned about is if Iraq does use weapons of mass destruction. Would you say that one brother is more dangerous than the other?

WEDEMAN: It's difficult to say. We know Uday is -- his brutality, so to speak, has been very public. And everybody is aware of that. But Qusay is somebody, he's responsible, for instance, for the security that surrounds his father.

And, therefore, what they could do, what they could get up to, no one really knows. But certainly I don't think anybody would downplay the possibility that they would stop at nothing to maintain their positions in power.

CHUNG: All right, Ben Wedeman in Jordan, thank you so much.

When we come back: If you want something to remember Senator Paul Wellstone by, should you be able to buy it online?

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Robert Blake wants to talk, so now his lawyer wants out: why this high-profile attorney is leaving the high- profile case.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: In a moment: the inside story of Robert Blake from his now former defense attorney.

But first, talk about pushing the boundaries of taste. We've reported that there is a fan base Web site honoring Police Chief Charles Moose. It's a gesture of respect, according to the sponsors. We support it. OK. We understand.

But now, on the very night of the memorial service for Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone, there is news that eBay is offering Wellstone memorabilia, from books and buttons, to photos and road signs, even Wellstone trading cards.

Now, the merchandising of deceased celebrities is not new. It happened during and after the deaths of Joe DiMaggio and John F. Kennedy Jr., for example -- but so quickly? It makes you wonder if we'd be better off without the Internet -- back in a moment with the story on Robert Blake.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: The lead attorney defending Robert Blake against charges he killed his wife has quit. Harland Braun made the decision yesterday after Blake agreed, against Braun's wishes, to give an on- camera interview to ABC. The sheriff's department later said it will not allow a jailhouse interview, but Braun is still leaving.

So, we have asked him to join us, so he can explain why, as well as give us an idea about how his former client is doing.

Mr. Braun, why won't you go back and represent your client?

HARLAND BRAUN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT BLAKE: Well, it's a basic philosophical disagreement between Robert and me. And we've tried to resolve it for the last two months.

He insists that he needs to go on camera, talk to the country and explain to them the circumstances about his wife's death. As a lawyer, I find that incompatible with trying the case in the courtroom and obtaining a fair jury. And we've tried to work it out. And we just couldn't. And we had a sad parting of the ways yesterday.

And I wish him well. I feel terrible about leaving the case. But I have my principles and he has his needs.

CHUNG: Doesn't he know that it could compromise his case? I know I shouldn't be saying that, but clearly it will.

BRAUN: Yes, I think he does.

I'm not an actor. And he's been an actor his entire life. And he has some connection to the public that he feels that he owes an obligation to get on camera and talk about the case. And we've tried to work it out for about two months. And I've actually allowed about five interviews off camera, hoping to satisfy his needs.

But, at the end of the day, he insists on it. And we've parted. And I'm going to assist the new lawyer and will do everything I can for him. But I can't compromise by principles to his needs.

CHUNG: Jeffrey Toobin is here with us, our legal analyst.

Go ahead, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: Hi, Harland.

Harland, the preliminary hearing is scheduled for December 11. Do you think he can get a new lawyer who can be prepared by then?

BRAUN: Well, I'm going to cooperate and all my investigators will cooperate. The law here is that the judge has to allow a substitution of attorneys, unless there's an undue delay.

The new lawyer would have about five to six weeks. The case is relatively focused now. The discovery is organized. And with our assistance, I think that a lawyer can be ready. But even if the lawyer needed another 30 days to get ready, that would not be undue delay in a system that normally takes a year to get to a preliminary hearing on a special circumstance case.

CHUNG: Do you think the judge is going to let you withdraw? Because the reason was because you -- the two of you disagreed about this television interview. Now that the sheriff's department says there will be no television interview, is the judge going to comply with your request?

BRAUN: Well, the judge really doesn't have a choice. Robert Blake is entitled to the lawyer of his choice within reason, as long as there's not an undue delay.

The fact that the sheriff's department has sort of canceled it -- they had approved this interview before. And it will go forward at some point. If we obtain bail for Robert Blake, he's going to be doing interviews. And I assure you, the sheriff's department will change their mind and allow him to do interviews, because the district attorney's office is going to call them and say: "Hey, guys we want him to start talking. Why are you interfering with our investigation?"

So, the fact that they've temporarily canceled this doesn't have anything to do with our philosophical disagreement.

CHUNG: I would like to ask both of you, Jeffrey Toobin and Harland Braun, how will this affect his case?

First, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: It's certainly bad to have to get a new lawyer, to bring someone up to speed.

Harland is a terrific lawyer. He's been doing a great job. And he's right that anything Robert Blake says in a television interview could well come back to haunt him. And he will be cross-examined, if he takes the stand, with what he said during this interview.

CHUNG: Harland Braun, I remember sitting in your office and going through some of the volumes and volumes of material. I know you just told Jeffrey that you would help any new lawyer. But the reality is, aren't you really hurting his case?

BRAUN: I don't think so. We're going to do everything we can to minimize the damage to his case.

But I'm in a position where I can't, in good conscience, proceed while I have a client doing live or on-camera interviews about his case. In addition to the reason that Jeff gave, the nature of this meeting, which is so powerful, is distorting, because it will focus on the most interesting eight or 10 minutes of a three-hour interview and create a false impression, in my opinion.

So it's really a situation where, given public opinion out here, which is pretty neutral towards Robert Blake, I think it could crystallize it against him, just through the distortion of this medium.

TOOBIN: Have you made a recommendation about who Blake should hire?

BRAUN: No, I haven't. I thought it would be inappropriate. There are literally hundreds of good criminal lawyers in Los Angeles. Many of them aren't that well known, but they are very, very good. And I think his civil lawyers and Robert should do that on their own. And I'll cooperate with whomever they choose.

CHUNG: I assume you have plenty of work you can go to now, right?

BRAUN: Yes. There's always a certain nostalgia. It's a very interesting case. It's a case that I think Robert should be able to win. I think it's a very thin prosecution. And I would have loved to have won a case like this, as well as vindicating a client whose cause I believe. But I have got my principles also and I have to stand by them.

CHUNG: Do you honestly believe he's innocent?

BRAUN: I do, after looking at all the evidence. In other words, a client tells you he's innocent and you tend to be skeptical, because you expect him to say that. But having looked at all the physical evidence, there's not a scrap of physical evidence linking him to the killing. There's not a witness. There's not a confession or an admission. So there is no evidence in that regard.

There's only evidence of some people who said that he was talking wildly about killing her. So it's a very difficult case for the prosecution. And it's a very good case for Robert.

CHUNG: All right, Harland Braun, thank you so much for being with us.

Jeffrey Toobin, again.

We'll be back in a moment with a look at tomorrow and to tell you about a very special hour coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Tomorrow: the detective who infiltrated the Mafia and lived to tell about it. What he knows about the mob is so hot, he'll only tell us about it in disguise.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": an exclusive interview with accused sniper John Muhammad's first wife, Carol Williams, and their son.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Former Attorney Speaks Out>


Aired October 29, 2002 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight: The suspects are leveled with federal charges.

ANNOUNCER: The case against the sniper suspects goes to the feds, the U.S. government now filing death penalty charges against John Allen Muhammad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is a very serious matter. I consider the matters charged in the federal indictment today to be atrocities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Plus: Was this the first victim in a nationwide killing spree?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Tacoma Police Department now consider John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo as suspects in the Keenya Cook homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The sniper suspects linked to another murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody came to my house and they shot my niece, cold-blooded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The tense hostage crisis: a lethal dose of gas, and the American in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Another twist in the Robert Blake murder case: His attorney hangs it up. Tonight, Harland Braun tells Connie why.

And the real story of Saddam Hussein's sons. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one in Iraq is worse than Uday, even his father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Is tyranny a family business?

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

We'll get to all of that in just a few minutes, but first we want to update you on a pair of breaking news stories.

Off Florida, a boat overloaded with Haitian refugees edges up to the Key Biscayne coastline this afternoon. Everyone jumped into the shallow water, heading for the beach and a nearby highway.

CNN's Mark Potter is in our Miami bureau with the latest -- Mark.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Connie.

Well, the situation now seems to be under control. Police say that they have rounded up most, if not all, of the Haitian refugees who came ashore; 208 of them are in Border Patrol custody right now. Another 21 are being held by the Coast Guard. The 208 in Border Patrol custody are being take to the Krome Avenue detention facility, a processing facility outside Miami, where they will be given food, water. And then they'll begin their asylum proceedings.

The Coast Guard has actually taken this boat that you are seeing right now to its base and is still looking in the water to make sure that no one else is there. They have reported no fatalities and only a few very minor injuries.

Now, as we saw a moment ago in those pictures, the people began jumping off the boat after it ran aground about 20 yards away from the bridge that separates -- that joins the Miami area with Key Biscayne. They had been spotted by the Coast Guard and then made for shore, ran aground. The people began jumping in the water.

And the first groups that made it to shore then got on to the bridge and began running through the rush-hour traffic, some of them approaching the motorists, appearing to be asking for rides out of the area. Very quickly, local police and federal agents converged on the scene. It was fairly easy to control the area, because, as you can see, it is a bridge and they were able to gather up most of the people fairly quickly.

And, again, they were put on buses and were sent, most of them, to the detention facility. Now, they will be processed. They will be questioned about where they came from, whether they came directly from Haiti or the Bahamas. They'll also be questioned about whether any of them qualifies for asylum. That's a touchy issue here.

The ACLU and local advocates say that they will be gathering lawyers to try to help the Haitians. But if past is prologue, we can say that most of these Haitians will probably be sent back to Haiti, ultimately -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, Mark Potter, CNN's reporter down in Miami in Florida, thank you.

We told you there is another breaking news story tonight. That's happening in Minnesota, where thousands of people have gathered for a tribute to the late Senator Paul Wellstone. As you know, he died in a plane crash last Friday.

CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl is at the University of Minnesota's Williams Arena in Minneapolis -- good evening, Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Connie.

An incredible memorial here. As you can see, I'm outside the arena. And there are thousands of people over the course of several blocks who cannot get into the arena because it is packed to capacity. They are watching outside on a monitor out here. Inside the arena: 14,000 seats filled, many of them with a who's-who of political America.

You have got inside this arena: Bill Clinton, former president, his wife, Hillary Clinton, also Al Gore. More than half of the United States Senate is in that arena, including Democrats as well as Republicans. Republican leader Trent Lott is among those in attendance.

And they are coming -- as much as you can feel a sense of celebration of Wellstone's life, as much as it is a memorial. Also in that arena is former Vice President Walter Mondale, who we expect that tomorrow the Democrats will choose to replace Wellstone on the ballot. And you'll have here, Connie, perhaps the shortest campaign in political history, or at least one of them, a six-day campaign that will start tomorrow for this Senate seat that Paul Wellstone used to hold -- Connie.

CHUNG: Jonathan, there was some awkwardness between the Wellstone family and Vice President Cheney. Can you tell us about it?

KARL: Yes.

The vice president offered to come to this memorial service, but the Wellstone family said that they would not like him to attend. There were a couple of reasons. One was really security. This would have turned this into a Secret Service event and changed the tone of the event. The family did not want that.

But there has been some bitterness here. Democrats and the Wellstone family believe Republicans got back into politics too quickly after Wellstone's death on Friday. And they were upset about that. They thought that that was part of the reason why they didn't want the vice president to be at this event -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl, thank you.

There will be much more on the memorial service for Senator Wellstone on "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN" at 10:00 p.m. Eastern time.

Tonight, our top story: The sniper case has gotten bigger. And according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, the ultimate penalty should be available in this case. John Muhammad was hit with federal extortion charges that could bring the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHCROFT: I consider the matters charged in the federal indictment today to be atrocities. They're tragedies. They are very serious. And it's important that we have available the very most serious penalties in a setting like this. And we want to be able to make sure that the system of justice operates effectively to make sure that the most serious penalties are available to address very serious crimes like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: John Lee Malvo was not named because he is a juvenile. And he would not be subject to a federal death penalty.

Tacoma, Washington, has also gotten in on it, naming Muhammad and Malvo as suspects in a February murder and a synagogue shooting.

Joining us with details on the federal charges is CNN justice corporate Kelli Arena.

Kelli, can you explain the federal charges?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Connie.

The first and most important is the use of a firearm during a crime of violence which results in death. That is the federal charge that carries a death penalty sentence. Other charges, main charges, include conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, conspiracy to affect interstate commerce by extortion and threats of violence, and also discharging a firearm in a school zone.

Obviously, these come amid other charges as well, but the most important, again, is the use of a firearm which resulted in death. Again, that carries the death penalty charge.

CHUNG: Kelli, does this mean the states who want to prosecute these two men have to stand down?

ARENA: No, Connie. That's two very different situations. You know that there are four counties in Maryland and Virginia who have already filed their own charges. But the decision of who gets to go to court first has nothing to do with this federal complaint today. Justice Department sources say that it will probably be the state of Virginia, a county in Virginia that will get to go first, although that decision has not been made just yet. And, specifically, they are looking at two counties in particular, Prince William or Fairfax County.

Prosecutors there have lots of experience, lots of death penalty experience. And so that decision could come either later this week or possibly next week -- but two very separate issues.

CHUNG: And who has the final word on who goes ahead?

ARENA: Well, the Justice Department. The two individuals remain in federal custody. And so, therefore, Justice decides who gets to -- who they would transfer those two individuals to, which jurisdiction they would transfer them to.

CHUNG: Kelli, the federal complaint also included information about what was found in Muhammad's car. Can you tell us about that?

ARENA: Well, they found a GPS system in the car. They found two-way radios in the car. Obviously...

CHUNG: Let me just tell everyone what that is: global positional system.

ARENA: That's right.

CHUNG: And why don't you explain what that is?

ARENA: It sort of allows you to figure out which location you're going. You can chart locations and your direction and which way you want to go and how to get to each location. So that was actually found outside the car.

There was a computer found in the car, of course the weapon that at least investigators say was used in the commission of the shootings in the Washington area. And investigators say, at least according to the affidavit, that the two were living in that automobile.

CHUNG: And what about the main defense attorney for Muhammad? He's a public defender. He came out and talked to reporters. What did he say?

ARENA: That's right.

Well, he said a lot of stuff that we haven't heard lately. He described Muhammad as a 41-year-old father, an American who had served in the Persian Gulf, a person who had never been convicted of any other crime before. And he asked Americans to have some patience, to let the legal process work, reminding everyone that that includes representation by counsel, a fair trial and the presumption of innocence.

Beyond that, he went through process and said that the next date that everyone looks forward to is Tuesday, when Muhammad will stand for a detention hearing.

CHUNG: All right, Kelli Arena, thank you so much.

ARENA: You're welcome.

CHUNG: The Tacoma case we mentioned earlier joins a growing list of local jurisdictions jockeying for the accused snipers. They range from Alabama to Maryland. Montgomery County, Maryland, has filed six charges of first-degree murder against the two; in Prince George's County, no charges yet for the middle school shooting. In Virginia, Spotsylvania County has indicted Muhammad for two shootings on one charge of murder and one charge of conspiracy to commit murder.

For the shooting in Prince William County, charges include capital murder. Fairfax County has not filed charges yet for the Home Depot murder there. Hanover County has filed charges for the shooting there, including attempted murder. And Montgomery, Alabama, with two shootings during a robbery, has filed a charge of capital murder as well. For the murder in Washington, D.C., no charges are filed yet.

So how does this get worked out with the new federal charges? We're joined now by Ellen Brooks, district attorney of Montgomery County, Alabama -- and just to be clear, it is called Montgomery County -- Virginia Attorney General Jerry Kilgore; and our own lawyer, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

Jeffrey, let's start with you.

Honestly, when I hear each of these prosecutors make his or her case, I think they sound bloodthirsty. "I can fry him faster and better than you can."

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It's like nothing I've ever seen before, this sort of competition about the death penalty, who can go first.

But what's important to remember here is that the Justice Department, which ultimately has the final say, feels exactly the same way about the death penalty. This is a very pro-death penalty Justice Department. And they unapologetically say, in effect, they are going to give this case first to the jurisdiction that is likely to get the death penalty, not -- to give the death penalty, not just to Muhammad, but to 17-year-old Malvo as well.

CHUNG: Mr. Kilgore, I read your statement. And, honestly, I have to tell you, it does sound as if you are saying, "We're the ones who can deliver the death penalty, so choose us."

JERRY KILGORE, VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We are the state that has the options, the opportunities. We have experience in prosecuting these high-profile cases and giving jurors the option of imposing the death penalty.

We know the Justice Department has all the facts. They reviewed all of the laws that apply in each and every jurisdiction. And they understand the track records of each and every jurisdiction. Virginia is one of those states that we don't apologize for our stand against violent crime. We stand with the victims in Virginia. And we are ready, willing and able to prosecute these cases.

CHUNG: Ellen Brooks, we're told that you believe that Nathaniel Osbourne was also included in the shooting in Montgomery, Alabama. If you are able to proceed along those lines, how does it strengthen your case?

ELLEN BROOKS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, MONTGOMERY COUNTY, ALABAMA: There has been some discussion that a third person may have been involved in our capital murder and attempted murder charges.

I believe that, if there are others responsible for our cases or any others, that they all should be brought to justice and held accountable for what they did. If in fact that's true in Montgomery, Alabama, and we can prove it better than any other state, then we're due consideration. I don't think we should rush to judgment yet. It's premature.

TOOBIN: General Kilgore, isn't there a possibility, under Virginia law, that if the feds go first with their federal case, Virginia couldn't prosecute the case at all?

KILGORE: There's a possibility. We have a preemption statute in Virginia that says, if the federal government files an indictment or -- on information before we do, then we certainly are precluded from going forward.

We have filed indictments in several of our jurisdictions. Fairfax County has not, which I believe explains why the federal government came forth with just a complaint today. They are giving Virginia an opportunity. We've been working with them since last week to remind them of this statute. They've been very helpful to us in this process.

TOOBIN: Now, you represent the whole state. Which county do you think should go first? Who should offer the first prosecution?

KILGORE: I'm not going to be in a position of choosing among Virginia counties. They all offer very seasoned prosecutors who are ready and able to try these individuals. But, certainly, Prince William, Fairfax and Spotsylvania had the murders occur in their counties. Hanover had the shooting. And, fortunately, in Hanover County, the individual did survive.

CHUNG: Jeffrey, is there any chance that, if the federal government does not succeed in a conviction and the trials are going parallel -- is that possible, that it will parallel? And would one affect the other?

TOOBIN: What's interesting about the federal charges is that, if you just had each county proceed separately, Maryland, Virginia, Alabama, there would be no potential double-jeopardy problems, potential -- barring further prosecutions.

The federal case, because it includes all the murders, does have the possibility of potentially paralyzing some of the other cases. So that's why it sounds like, as Attorney General Kilgore was saying, they are very much leaning towards letting Virginia go first, so that risk wouldn't be present at all.

CHUNG: I see.

Ellen Brooks, Jerry Kilgore and Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much for being with us.

When we come back: the attempt to resolve a hostage situation. The gas pumped into a theater ends up being deadly. What was it? And why are they keeping it a secret?

We'll get some answers right after this. Stay with us.

Still ahead: another twist in a Hollywood murder mystery. Blake's attorney quits the case.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: More than three days after the mystery gas used by Russian troops killed 115 hostages in the storming of a Moscow theater, Russia's government is still not saying what kind of gas it was. And they might never say, because they don't want terrorists to prepare for it.

Russia is still in mourning, even as questions are arising there and here about what Russian police did and how they did it. Even though the gas is believed to have contained an opiate, the Bush administration, which has been tough on individual drug use, has not condemned Russia for its deadly use of the unknown drug.

CNN's Mike Hanna has been covering this story in Moscow.

Mike, any clue as to what was contained in that gas?

MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Connie, it was a bit like a medical detective story, and a very tragic one, indeed.

When those hundreds of hostages started arriving in hospitals, doctors began treating them. Initially, they thought, assumed it was some kind of nerve gas that was used. They used an antidote for that. It didn't work. Hostages continued to die, many getting increasingly ill.

They then tried a variety of other drugs and, eventually, in desperation, used a drug called naloxone, which is actually used for treating the overdose of heroin or morphine. This actually worked. The indication then was that this was some type of opiate, some kind of narcotic. The Russians refuse to give any details as to exactly what this drug was.

All they've told CNN is that it was not of military origin, that it was some kind of analgesic used generally in surgery, but it was pumped in massive concentrations into that theater to ensure that those Chechen rebels holding 800 people hostage there were not able to detonate the massive amounts of explosive that they had -- Connie.

CHUNG: Now, the U.S. ambassador to Moscow has chimed in with many countries. International pressure is on Russia to reveal exactly what kind of nerve gas -- what kind of gas it was. How is the government reacting there?

HANNA: Well, the Russian government is standing by its position that, to reveal the details or the formula of this drug would be perhaps to assist terrorists, should they try another similar operation.

Now, the U.S. ambassador here not critical of that operation itself, but he has been critical of the lack of information disseminated by the Russians in the wake of the operation: the fact that the doctors did not know what the chemical was, the fact that families and friends of those hostages, some of them did not even know where their loved ones were, whether they were alive or dead.

And the U.S. ambassador has made very clear that this lack of information created major problems and the fact that doctors were not told what drug was used actually could have cost more lives than were necessary -- Connie.

CHUNG: Mike, how have the Russian people reacted? Do they support what the government has done?

HANNA: Well, this is a very interesting situation. The Russian people generally have welcomed and have actually praised the way that that hostage siege was ended.

They have given great support to Russian President Vladimir Putin for his decision to go in and end that siege, Russians generally believing that that scenario was going to end in bloodshed anyway. They did understand the complications of the situation; 800 people's lives were at stake. And, in fact, there's been an opinion poll released, the first one, which shows that 85 percent of Russians support President Putin in his handling of the hostage crisis.

That being said, the mass of Russian public are absolutely furious about what happened after the operation, the lack of information, the fact that doctors were not given the names of the drugs, the fact that Russian authorities didn't give information about what hostages were in what hospital, whether people were alive or dead.

So there's two separate things going on here: the operation itself seen as a success, seen as a massive blow against terrorism; but what happened after the operation seen as a disaster and an absolutely tragic disaster -- but Vladimir Putin clearly not taking public blame for this -- Connie.

CHUNG: And, finally, Mike, there were American casualties.

HANNA: Yes, indeed. There were at least four American casualties, two of them permanent residents or green card holders.

Only one of them has been identified. And he was a 39-year-old from Oklahoma city, Sandy Booker, and a sad story here. He came to Moscow to pick up his fiancee, the woman he was engaged to, to take her back home to the United States. He went to that theater with his fiancee that night. And, subsequently, he died as a result of the gas inhaled during that operation, we believe.

There has been an autopsy performed. But the results of the autopsy are not out. It was in fact his fiancee who identified him -- so a man caught in the wrong place very much at the wrong time.

Another American citizen who was in that theater is recovering in hospital, we are told. Another person who has got a permanent residence, a green card, also died as a result of the gas inhalation, while a fourth American, another green card holder, is also recovering well from the effects of the drug -- Connie.

CHUNG: CNN's Mike Hanna, in Moscow, thank you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: And joining us now with some insight on this gas mystery is Dr. Marc Siegel, assistant professor of medicine at NYU Medical School.

Thank you, Dr. Siegel, for being with us.

DR. MARC SIEGEL, NYU MEDICAL SCHOOL: Thanks, Connie.

CHUNG: If indeed this gas is an opiate derivative, how would it affect a person?

SIEGEL: Well, first of all, it would probably affect breathing. And people would have a lot of trouble breathing.

Now, they cannot regulate the amount of gases in any particular area of the theater. You understand that, if this gas is used in an operating theater in an operating room, we can regulate the exact amount of this gas that's given. But in a theater, if they are going to pump it in, it could overwhelm people in certain parts of the theater and affect their breathing. And if their breathing is affected, that may affect oxygen flow to the brain.

CHUNG: Now, the controversial part, of course, is no information. So when the doctors received all of these patients, they had no idea what to use. Their hands were clearly tied, weren't they?

SIEGEL: Absolutely.

And, as Mike Hanna was pointing out, there's been an outcry of what emergency personnel were available, what doctors knew. On the scene, if this in fact is an opiate derivative, they could use a drug called naloxone or Narcan. If they give it right away, it would reverse the effect of the opiate immediately.

CHUNG: And save these people's lives.

SIEGEL: Absolutely. And they could give it further on down the line to make sure that the opiate doesn't come back and reaffect them.

CHUNG: Dr. Siegel, what is the time limit to administer that antidote?

SIEGEL: Well, the medication itself, if it's used as a gas, would still last 24 to 72 hours. So this medication that would reverse it is short-acting, but you can give it in intravenous form over the whole period of time. So doctors receiving these patients in the hospital that knew of this would put them on an intravenous drip of the medicine to reverse the gas, keep them on it for a few days, observe them, and they would probably be OK.

CHUNG: I think the thing that frightens all of us here in the United States is: Could that be used on us? And does the United States even know about it? Is the U.S. military using it as well?

SIEGEL: Reports are that the U.S. military has this gas, that they've studied it and they are well aware of it. In fact, in medical school in Russia, doctors are trained to be prepared for many different kinds of gases.

CHUNG: And do you know if that antidote is available to doctors, if indeed something like this should happen to us?

SIEGEL: It's part of every emergency cart. It's available in every hospital in the country.

CHUNG: Dr. Marc Siegel, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Why did Robert Blake's defense attorney just quit? We'll ask him in just a moment.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: ruthless, cruel and violent. It's all part of the job of being the son of Saddam and possibly the next dictator of Iraq.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: With the world wondering who might replace Saddam Hussein, there is greater scrutiny now of the two men closest to him. That would be his own sons. And if you believe that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, you won't be surprised that these men have been accused of doing things just as awful as their father, and maybe even worse.

Here's CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For years in Baghdad's Byzantine labyrinth of power this man was favored to succeed his father, Uday Saddam Hussein, first son of the Iraqi president. But assassins nearly killed Uday in 1996. He was visited by his father in the hospital, and shortly afterwards CNN interviewed Uday about being heir apparent. This was his ominous reply.

UDAY HUSSEIN, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S SON (through translator): If that was not a question from you, from a foreigner, the person who spoke like that, even as a form of praise, would be questioned or punished.

AMANPOUR: Ruthless, violent and unprofessional. That's how former associates and others describe Uday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one in Iraq is worse than Uday, even his father. No one. You know, and you know, this is very natural, because he is so mean and so greedy. He uses cruelty to amuse himself.

AMANPOUR: Abbas al-Janabi man worked for Uday for 15 years before defecting to the U.K. in 1998. As press secretary and private secretary, Janabi had unusual access.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is so aggressive, and everybody knows that one day he killed his father's servant, and everybody knows one day that he shot his uncle, his own uncle.

AMANPOUR: Uday's sexual exploits are legendary, too. He is said to have taken women from their husbands, or fiances and families, and violently abused them.

LATIF YAHIA, AUTHOR, "I WAS SADDAM'S SON": Uday, everything is public. Everyone knows what he is doing, how he raped, how he stolen, how he do -- how he pick the girls, and just his life with girls, and you know, with the sex and drinking, and this is his life.

AMANPOUR: Latif Yahia claims to have worked as Uday's official body double, from 1987 to 1991. Iraqi officials and other dissidents deny his story, but this is not in dispute: In 1990, Yahia used the resemblance to travel to Kuwait and steal expensive cars. He said on Uday's orders. Baghdad said he was an impostor, and made him confess on television.

But Janabi, who was on Uday's official payroll, testifies to Uday's taste for dollars and corruption.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wherever you go, in any ministry, he has some people there, to facilitate his, you know, whatever he wants.

AMANPOUR: Janabi says Uday has raked off hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes and commissions on everything from contracts with the U.N. Oil for Food program designed to help the Iraqi people, to cigarettes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has an empire, in fact, inside the regime. Nobody can touch it.

AMANPOUR: Janabi says he finally defected when Uday accused him of cheating on a cigarette deal that he was negotiating for him.

Saddam Hussein allows Uday to wield power through his newspapers and TV stations and as the head of a militia called Saddam Fedayeen. But he was gradually replaced as favorite son and heir apparent by his younger brother, Qusay, who controls the security organization that keeps Saddam Hussein in power.

While Qusay is less showy, he, too, is known to be ruthless, having led the liquidation of hundreds of dissidents during the uprisings against Saddam Hussein after the Gulf War in 1991.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is very cruel on the opposition. Anybody who opposes his regime, his father's regime, you know. He has -- he will not hesitate a minute, you know, a second, to kill him.

AMANPOUR: Janabi believes the son could mobilize up to 6,000 men to defend his father should the regime come under attack again.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: In that report from Christiane Amanpour, the CNN reporter you saw being told that he would have been questioned or punished if he were an Iraqi was CNN international correspondent Ben Wedeman, who joins us now from Amman, Jordan, with more on the sons of Saddam.

Ben, thanks for being with us.

I tell you, when I saw that, I thought, oh, my gosh, how chilling. What was it like to meet Uday face to face?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a chilling experience in many respects.

He was polite. He was civil the whole time. But, normally, when you interview somebody, at some point, the ice breaks. There's a moment where there is a certain human communication. And I can tell you, I've interviewed people who have confessed to murder, to cannibals, and, at some point, the ice broke. But in my conversation with Uday, it was chilling the entire time. He didn't really express any sense of humor at all.

You could tell that this is somebody who is not used to talking on anybody's other -- on anybody else's terms. He talks only on his own terms -- Connie.

CHUNG: Ben, that assassination attempt on Uday, there were rumors or speculation that in fact it was his younger brother who ordered that assassination attempt. Do you know anything more about that?

WEDEMAN: No, nobody really knows what happened on that day in December 1996.

It was an odd incident, in the sense that it happened at a very busy intersection in downtown Baghdad. And the attackers disappeared, just simply ran through a back alley. Nobody really knows who was behind it. There's been speculation that it could have been his father, Saddam Hussein; it could have been his brother, Qusay; or it could have been a shadowy group.

But the Iraqis have never come forward and shown anybody, somebody who they said was certainly or definitely the people or person behind that assassination attempt.

CHUNG: There have been so many stories about Uday. But his younger brother is actually a touch mysterious, isn't he? No one really knows him as well.

WEDEMAN: No.

Unlike Uday, Qusay has never been somebody who has gone out in public. Uday, for instance, was a frequent visitor to many of Baghdad's bars and restaurants and hotels. And he's been in many public places. Qusay, on the other hand, is a very private person, rarely, if ever, seen in public, and normally just seen on Iraqi television.

So he is very much a mysterious individual, about whom very few people know much of anything.

CHUNG: Tell me, is there any possibility that the two of them would share power?

WEDEMAN: I would certainly doubt that. These are ruthless men. These are men, Qusay and Uday, who have grown up with absolute power. And, certainly, it would be hard to imagine the two of them somehow sharing power in Baghdad, in Iraq, in a country where it has a long tradition of absolute rulers.

And the idea of the two of them somehow being co-presidents of Iraq, I think many people would find difficult to imagine -- Connie.

CHUNG: I think one of the things that many of us here are concerned about is if Iraq does use weapons of mass destruction. Would you say that one brother is more dangerous than the other?

WEDEMAN: It's difficult to say. We know Uday is -- his brutality, so to speak, has been very public. And everybody is aware of that. But Qusay is somebody, he's responsible, for instance, for the security that surrounds his father.

And, therefore, what they could do, what they could get up to, no one really knows. But certainly I don't think anybody would downplay the possibility that they would stop at nothing to maintain their positions in power.

CHUNG: All right, Ben Wedeman in Jordan, thank you so much.

When we come back: If you want something to remember Senator Paul Wellstone by, should you be able to buy it online?

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: Robert Blake wants to talk, so now his lawyer wants out: why this high-profile attorney is leaving the high- profile case.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: In a moment: the inside story of Robert Blake from his now former defense attorney.

But first, talk about pushing the boundaries of taste. We've reported that there is a fan base Web site honoring Police Chief Charles Moose. It's a gesture of respect, according to the sponsors. We support it. OK. We understand.

But now, on the very night of the memorial service for Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone, there is news that eBay is offering Wellstone memorabilia, from books and buttons, to photos and road signs, even Wellstone trading cards.

Now, the merchandising of deceased celebrities is not new. It happened during and after the deaths of Joe DiMaggio and John F. Kennedy Jr., for example -- but so quickly? It makes you wonder if we'd be better off without the Internet -- back in a moment with the story on Robert Blake.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: The lead attorney defending Robert Blake against charges he killed his wife has quit. Harland Braun made the decision yesterday after Blake agreed, against Braun's wishes, to give an on- camera interview to ABC. The sheriff's department later said it will not allow a jailhouse interview, but Braun is still leaving.

So, we have asked him to join us, so he can explain why, as well as give us an idea about how his former client is doing.

Mr. Braun, why won't you go back and represent your client?

HARLAND BRAUN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT BLAKE: Well, it's a basic philosophical disagreement between Robert and me. And we've tried to resolve it for the last two months.

He insists that he needs to go on camera, talk to the country and explain to them the circumstances about his wife's death. As a lawyer, I find that incompatible with trying the case in the courtroom and obtaining a fair jury. And we've tried to work it out. And we just couldn't. And we had a sad parting of the ways yesterday.

And I wish him well. I feel terrible about leaving the case. But I have my principles and he has his needs.

CHUNG: Doesn't he know that it could compromise his case? I know I shouldn't be saying that, but clearly it will.

BRAUN: Yes, I think he does.

I'm not an actor. And he's been an actor his entire life. And he has some connection to the public that he feels that he owes an obligation to get on camera and talk about the case. And we've tried to work it out for about two months. And I've actually allowed about five interviews off camera, hoping to satisfy his needs.

But, at the end of the day, he insists on it. And we've parted. And I'm going to assist the new lawyer and will do everything I can for him. But I can't compromise by principles to his needs.

CHUNG: Jeffrey Toobin is here with us, our legal analyst.

Go ahead, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: Hi, Harland.

Harland, the preliminary hearing is scheduled for December 11. Do you think he can get a new lawyer who can be prepared by then?

BRAUN: Well, I'm going to cooperate and all my investigators will cooperate. The law here is that the judge has to allow a substitution of attorneys, unless there's an undue delay.

The new lawyer would have about five to six weeks. The case is relatively focused now. The discovery is organized. And with our assistance, I think that a lawyer can be ready. But even if the lawyer needed another 30 days to get ready, that would not be undue delay in a system that normally takes a year to get to a preliminary hearing on a special circumstance case.

CHUNG: Do you think the judge is going to let you withdraw? Because the reason was because you -- the two of you disagreed about this television interview. Now that the sheriff's department says there will be no television interview, is the judge going to comply with your request?

BRAUN: Well, the judge really doesn't have a choice. Robert Blake is entitled to the lawyer of his choice within reason, as long as there's not an undue delay.

The fact that the sheriff's department has sort of canceled it -- they had approved this interview before. And it will go forward at some point. If we obtain bail for Robert Blake, he's going to be doing interviews. And I assure you, the sheriff's department will change their mind and allow him to do interviews, because the district attorney's office is going to call them and say: "Hey, guys we want him to start talking. Why are you interfering with our investigation?"

So, the fact that they've temporarily canceled this doesn't have anything to do with our philosophical disagreement.

CHUNG: I would like to ask both of you, Jeffrey Toobin and Harland Braun, how will this affect his case?

First, Jeffrey.

TOOBIN: It's certainly bad to have to get a new lawyer, to bring someone up to speed.

Harland is a terrific lawyer. He's been doing a great job. And he's right that anything Robert Blake says in a television interview could well come back to haunt him. And he will be cross-examined, if he takes the stand, with what he said during this interview.

CHUNG: Harland Braun, I remember sitting in your office and going through some of the volumes and volumes of material. I know you just told Jeffrey that you would help any new lawyer. But the reality is, aren't you really hurting his case?

BRAUN: I don't think so. We're going to do everything we can to minimize the damage to his case.

But I'm in a position where I can't, in good conscience, proceed while I have a client doing live or on-camera interviews about his case. In addition to the reason that Jeff gave, the nature of this meeting, which is so powerful, is distorting, because it will focus on the most interesting eight or 10 minutes of a three-hour interview and create a false impression, in my opinion.

So it's really a situation where, given public opinion out here, which is pretty neutral towards Robert Blake, I think it could crystallize it against him, just through the distortion of this medium.

TOOBIN: Have you made a recommendation about who Blake should hire?

BRAUN: No, I haven't. I thought it would be inappropriate. There are literally hundreds of good criminal lawyers in Los Angeles. Many of them aren't that well known, but they are very, very good. And I think his civil lawyers and Robert should do that on their own. And I'll cooperate with whomever they choose.

CHUNG: I assume you have plenty of work you can go to now, right?

BRAUN: Yes. There's always a certain nostalgia. It's a very interesting case. It's a case that I think Robert should be able to win. I think it's a very thin prosecution. And I would have loved to have won a case like this, as well as vindicating a client whose cause I believe. But I have got my principles also and I have to stand by them.

CHUNG: Do you honestly believe he's innocent?

BRAUN: I do, after looking at all the evidence. In other words, a client tells you he's innocent and you tend to be skeptical, because you expect him to say that. But having looked at all the physical evidence, there's not a scrap of physical evidence linking him to the killing. There's not a witness. There's not a confession or an admission. So there is no evidence in that regard.

There's only evidence of some people who said that he was talking wildly about killing her. So it's a very difficult case for the prosecution. And it's a very good case for Robert.

CHUNG: All right, Harland Braun, thank you so much for being with us.

Jeffrey Toobin, again.

We'll be back in a moment with a look at tomorrow and to tell you about a very special hour coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Tomorrow: the detective who infiltrated the Mafia and lived to tell about it. What he knows about the mob is so hot, he'll only tell us about it in disguise.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": an exclusive interview with accused sniper John Muhammad's first wife, Carol Williams, and their son.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night and see you tomorrow.

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Former Attorney Speaks Out>