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CNN Connie Chung Tonight

Family of First Potential Sniper Victim Speaks Out; United States Immigration Laws Unfair?

Aired October 30, 2002 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight: the mother of the woman police say may have been the sniper's very first victim.

ANNOUNCER: Long before snipers terrorized the D.C. area, a trail of murder began on the West Coast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Tacoma Police Department now consider John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo as suspects in the Keenya Cook homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Was this young mother the first victim of the sniper suspects?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody came to my house and they shot my niece, cold-blooded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, for the first time, the family of a newly linked shooting victim talks about John Allen Muhammad.

A desperate bid for freedom or an invasion of illegal aliens?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people are looking, seeking a better life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The mass exodus fans the flames of a passionate debate. Are U.S. immigration laws fair to all who seek asylum?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I believe that Haitians should be treated like all other people that come to our shores.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: At 6 foot, 3 inches, 310 pounds, NFL veteran Esera Tuaolo felt no fear on the playing field. But, in the locker room, he was afraid his secret life would be exposed. Tonight, he tells his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ESERA TUAOLO, FORMER NFL PLAYER: It made me go further and further into depression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Why do gay pro athletes live in fear of coming out?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would have been eaten alive and he would have been hated for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The cop who went undercover to bust the mob's stranglehold on a city's commercial garbage industry. Tonight: breaking a $1.5 billion Mafia cartel.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight: the woman who may have been the sniper's very first victim. It was 21-year-old Keenya Cook, whose family member had taken a position against John Allen Muhammad in his custody battle. She was killed in February in Tacoma. Now, for the first time, her family tonight will talk about the Muhammad they knew.

Also tonight: Federal officials are denying a report that a Montgomery County detective and FBI agent were possibly on the verge of getting Muhammad to confess when Muhammad was yanked from their hands by federal prosecutors.

We start tonight in Tacoma, where police also suspect Muhammad in a synagogue shooting there.

And reporter Dean Murphy is covering the story for "The New York Times."

Dean, thank you for being with us.

DEAN MURPHY, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": My pleasure.

CHUNG: Tell us, do authorities believe that the so-called synagogue shooting is connected to the shooting of the woman in Tacoma?

MURPHY: They are connected in the sense that the ballistic evidence shows that the guns used in both cases came from the same person. And this person has told the police that John Muhammad and Lee Malvo borrowed his guns frequently between February of this year and July of this year. So, in sense, they are connected in that they come from the same source. And this friend is cooperating with authorities by turning over the guns and allowing the ballistic test to be conducted.

CHUNG: But this is not the alleged firearm that was used in the sniper attack on the East Coast, correct?

MURPHY: Correct. These are different guns. They were recovered here in Tacoma. That's sort of what makes it interesting. These guns are separate from the ones used in the Washington, D.C. area, but they were also ones that apparently were used in crimes.

They are different also in that they were handguns. They were not rifles. This gentlemen, who the police have not identified and who say is not a suspect, but who is cooperating with them, actually turned over five weapons to the authorities: these two handguns, plus another handgun, plus two rifles. And they are still looking into the other three weapons, beyond these two handguns, to determine if maybe they were used in any crimes as well.

CHUNG: Now, do local authorities have any idea what the two alleged suspects were doing the two months before they came east or even went to Alabama?

MURPHY: That picture is still unfolding. But I think these developments in Tacoma help fill it in a little bit. At least now we know that he was here in May with guns and, apparently, at some level, scheming to do other things.

I spoke with a man up in Bellingham, another town near here, where they both were staying for a period of time. And just around the same time in May when these guys supposedly shot the synagogue, they were meeting with him and asking him about altering guns so they could be made silent and talking about crazy scenarios of killing police officers and blowing up gasoline tankers.

This was all in May of this year. And that sort of fills in a little bit of the idea of what these guys were thinking before they left here and headed east.

CHUNG: And no calls were made to the government, the FBI or anyone of these people who might be concerned about what these two suspected snipers might do?

MURPHY: Absolutely. There were calls made. The gentlemen here who turned over the five weapons didn't make any calls until last week, when he saw Muhammad and Malvo on TV being arrested. And then it clicked in his mind that maybe they were doing some bad things with his weapons. But the other gentleman up in Bellingham, he told the FBI in June about the things that Muhammad had told him. He was involved in a domestic violence dispute with his wife. And he told me that the FBI didn't really believe him. They thought he was making up grandiose claims to make up for his misdeeds with his wife. But he did tell me that, last week, they were back at his doorstep wanting to know all about it again.

CHUNG: All right, Dean Murphy, thank you for sharing your fine reporting with us.

Joining us right now from Seattle are the family of Keenya Cook, who was killed in February at the age of 21: Pamala Nichols, Keenya's mother, and Linda Nichols, who is Keenya's aunt.

Thank you for being with us.

Pamala Nichols, tell me about your daughter.

PAMALA NICHOLS, MOTHER OF KEENYA COOK: My daughter Keenya was 21, a month short of being 22 when she was first shot. Keenya was an outgoing person, a lovely person, a lovely mother and daughter. My child loved to sing and dance, which her daughter does now. It keeps us going.

CHUNG: Do you take care of her little daughter?

P. NICHOLS: Yes, I do.

CHUNG: She's just, what, over a year old now?

P. NICHOLS: She's 14 months now.

CHUNG: Now, when did you first realize or believe or suspect that you indeed may know who the alleged killer of your daughter was?

P. NICHOLS: Well, the news came across the television that they had a picture of the sniper and that we could download it on the computer. And I thought: "Well, what about the people that don't have a computer? We need to see this face now on TV."

And then, when it did come across the TV, my brother called me and told me: "Pam, you looking at the TV?"

I said, "Yes, I am."

"Are you watching the news."

I said, "I was, but I turned."

He said: "Well, turn back. We know the guy. We know the sniper."

I said, "What?"

He said, "Yes, it's John." I said, "John? John who?"

He said: "John Muhammad. You remember the guy who fixed the cars and stuff?"

And I was like, "Oh, John Williams?"

He said, "Yes, Muhammad."

I was like, "Oh, my God." When I saw him, I was like, "Oh, my God."

He said, "I think you should call the police, because he didn't care too much for my sister-in-law."

CHUNG: There you go. Well, why don't I have Linda Nichols pick that up from there?

Linda, it is believed that -- by you, I think your family -- that indeed Muhammad was trying to aim his shot at a different relative, not Keenya.

LINDA NICHOLS, AUNT OF KEENYA COOK: Right.

CHUNG: Is that correct?

L. NICHOLS: Right.

CHUNG: Why do you have reason to believe that?

L. NICHOLS: One, Keenya, that we know of, didn't have any enemies. She wasn't even in the house long enough for anything like that to go on.

CHUNG: And your other relative, whose name is Isa, was...

L. NICHOLS: By marriage.

CHUNG: Yes -- was having a bit of a dispute with Muhammad, in that she was supporting his ex-wife in a custody battle. Isn't that correct?

L. NICHOLS: Right. That, we know of. We don't know how long it's been going on.

CHUNG: So do you remember Muhammad? Can you describe him?

L. NICHOLS: Tall, slender, fair-skinned man, around my complexion. He was a quiet person to me, as far as when I did have -- when I did talk with him. You know, he was a quiet person.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: Did you see any signs of violence?

L. NICHOLS: No, ma'am. I sure did not. CHUNG: Was he ever angry?

L. NICHOLS: Not around us.

CHUNG: How about you, Pamala. What do you remember about him? Anything unusual?

P. NICHOLS: Only the day that he came over to have dinner with us. That particular day, we were having dinner and John came over. He did not call. He just showed up. Now, I don't know his reason for just showing up, but he had on a suit that looked like he pulled it out of a duffel bag.

And we were kind of -- we were talking about the way he was dressed. He was supposed to be neatly dressed. He was a little wrinkled. But he did not appear to be upset. He was quiet that day. He came and he left. We didn't even know he left, he was so quiet.

CHUNG: Did he bring along with him the person he called his son, Malvo?

P. NICHOLS: No. We don't know Malvo. The first time we saw Malvo was on TV with John.

CHUNG: Now, do you believe that John Muhammad was in fact the person who allegedly killed your daughter?

P. NICHOLS: I don't think it was John that killed my daughter, because -- the reason why I don't think that is because John knows Isa. He don't know my daughter. Malvo don't know my daughter. So I'm guessing he -- I'm having a very strong feeling and intuition that it was not John Muhammad. It was Malvo.

CHUNG: I see.

All right, well, I thank you so much for being with us, Pamala and Linda Nichols.

P. NICHOLS: You're welcome.

L. NICHOLS: You're welcome.

CHUNG: Although police and prosecutors point to lots of evidence they say they have against Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, the case against them is far from open and shut. No one ever saw them fire, after all. No witnesses placed them at the scene of any shooting. And what else does their defense have going for them?

Well, we asked our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, back once again to help us look at their case.

Jeffrey, if you were representing Malvo, I would assume that you would believe you have a little bit of a chance to put together a decent defense.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, if I were representing Malvo, I would be thankful for one thing, which is that I'm not representing Muhammad, because both these cases are very tough.

But Malvo has somewhat of a better chance, primarily because of the difference in ages, 17 vs. 41. He's so much younger. He's a juvenile. You could start to build an argument, based on what you found, that what he did, if anything, was under duress, was under compulsion, that he was scared, that he was immature, you know, separate him from Muhammad and make the case that, if he did anything, he's not really responsible for it. His will was overborne.

That's the best you can do with Malvo, if you can't prove that they weren't the shooters at all.

CHUNG: All right, what about Muhammad?

TOOBIN: Muhammad is, of course, a very tough case. But here's where we have to remember that we've only heard one side of the story.

We've heard about the ballistic evidence. Is it really good evidence? You have got to do your own ballistic evidence, get your own tests. You have to concentrate on the fact that there are no eyewitnesses. The white van, the white van that we heard so much about and then disappeared, that would obviously be a big linchpin of a defense, that in fact the shooter was in the white van, not in this Caprice.

The other point you have to look at, is look at the Caprice itself. We've heard so much about that it's set up as a sniper's nest, obviously a devastating piece of evidence. You have to come up with some alternative explanation of what the back of the Caprice really was.

CHUNG: How about, a la, O.J. Simpson, a glove?

TOOBIN: There is a glove. But O.J. Simpson had the good fortune of, that was the only piece of evidence that tied his home to the murder scene. Here, unfortunately for John Muhammad, there's a lot more than just the glove.

CHUNG: All right, Jeffrey, thank you, as always.

Still ahead: the professional athlete who breaks his silence, the secret he kept for his entire life.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: an unbelievable scene, mothers and children jumping overboard and swimming to freedom, or so they thought.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: This is what the pursuit of opportunity looks like, more than 200 Haitians in a dramatic dangerous bid for a life in America. Men, women and children, some as young as 18 months, rushed to dive into the waters off Miami when their boat ran aground after an eight- day journey.

They struggled to shore, not to escape persecution, but poverty. The average life expectancy in Haiti is 57. And that has led hundreds of Haitians to seek a better life here. But, unlike Cubans, if Haitians make it on to U.S. soil, they don't automatically get to stay. And unlike other refugees, Haitians seeking asylum are held in detention centers until their status is determined.

CNN's Mark Potter joins us from outside the Miami federal courthouse, where six Haitians have been charged with smuggling aliens.

Can you bring us up to date, Mark?

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I sure can, Connie.

Today, as you said, six Haitians were arrested, charged with smuggling the rest into Miami. This, apparently, all according to federal authorities, was the result of an organized smuggling scheme. The six men include the boat owner, three crew members, a mechanic and a person in charge of security, according to an affidavit that was filed by the Immigration and Naturalization Service in support of these arrests.

According to that affidavit, the planning for this trip began last December. And then last week, on October 24, the boat took off from a place described as Shu-shu Bay (ph), Haiti, with some 200 people aboard. It made a stop the next day elsewhere in Haiti, picked up food and fuel and 20 other people, and then headed for Miami.

According to the authorities, it came directly here, no other stops, and took four days to arrive. The passengers allegedly put up moneys, food, other items, services, goods, to help support the trip. And now some of those passengers are being held as material witnesses by the authorities in support of the prosecution -- Connie.

CHUNG: Mark, I want to show you a clip of Florida Governor Jeb Bush, who was facing some tough questioning by Congresswoman Carrie Meek.

Let's play a clip of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CARRIE MEEK (D), FLORIDA: I came to ask you if you would call your brother and ask him to call INS to release the Haitians out of detention. They don't need a new policy. All they have to is call. The wet-foot/dry-foot policy will take effect. Those Haitians are standing on dry land. My blood has been transferred to them, governor.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: Congresswoman, I appreciate your...

QUESTION: I love them.

BUSH: I respect your position. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Well, Mark Potter, I'm wondering if public reaction is the same in the area.

POTTER: It depends on who you talk to. If you talk to people in the Haitian community and among those who support the Haitian community, they're quite angry. They're looking at this as another example of different treatment facing Haitians, as opposed to other immigrants.

If you look at other parts of the community -- I'll be frank with you -- they are concerned that, if this boatload of Haitians is allowed to stay here, than other boatloads will come to Miami. This is an argument that we've seen playing out here in this South Florida area for years and decades, actually, the argument over whether the Haitians should be given the same treatment as Cubans, who are protected by law.

It has not been settled. And it's not going to be settled now, most likely. And, most likely, the Haitians who were stopped will be sent back to Haiti. That's almost everybody's assessment -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, CNN's Mark Potter in Miami, thank you.

Joining us now with some differing perspectives on this issue, we have, in Washington, Dan Stein, executive director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform; and, from Miami, Cheryl Little, from the Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center.

Thank you both for being with us.

Cheryl, we'll begin with you.

Is it likely that the Haitians who are being held in detention centers will be shipped back immediately?

CHERYL LITTLE, FLORIDA IMMIGRATION ADVOCACY CENTER: Well, if they apply for asylum, they can't be shipped back immediately. There's a process that has to be in place.

The question is, are they going to have to go through the asylum process while in detention or are they going to be released, like all other asylum seekers in the Miami district, and given more ample time to find lawyers and properly prepare their cases?

CHUNG: Dan, the treatment, as we just said, is different for Cubans. Why shouldn't the Haitians be given the same kind of treatment that Cubans are given?

DAN STEIN, EXEC. DIR., FED. FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Cubans are given an exceptional Cold War policy treatment that we at FAIR have argued for 25 years ought to be repealed and we should have one asylum and refugee law for the entire world.

Congress in 1996 laid out a clear mandate. If you have got people who are crashing our borders who don't have any identification, you don't know who they are, don't know their criminal background, and if you have no indication they're going to show up for a hearing, then you are supposed to be detained. And when Congress passes these laws, the INS, for some reason, decides it doesn't have to enforce them.

CHUNG: So, what are you saying? What are you saying? If you want uniformity, what are you saying? Should these Haitians be given an opportunity to stay?

STEIN: No, what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be allowed to crash our borders to make frivolous asylum claims and delay their deportation for what can be years on end. And this has been going on between U.S. and Haiti and Dominican Republic and most Latin American countries and Asian countries and even European countries now for 30 years.

We have got to have serious political leadership. When Dick Gephardt

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: All right, let me just give Cheryl a chance to talk.

Cheryl, it's true that this has been going on for a long time. So give me some fresh ammunition as to why you believe Haitians should be given the opportunity to stay.

LITTLE: Well, let's look at recent U.S. State Department reports that have been very critical of the current political situation in Haiti and have pointed to the increased human rights abuses, increased political killings. Haiti is not a safe place for a lot of people today.

CHUNG: Well, there you go, Dan.

LITTLE: And the police can't protect them. And there's no judicial system to speak of.

CHUNG: Doesn't that say it all, Dan?

STEIN: No, because her argument is about generalized poverty and generally repressive regimes, which would apply to everybody in China and billions of people around the world.

(CROSSTALK)

STEIN: There's going to be poverty all over the world. We have to have a rule of law, a rule of law and a system that allows us to have basic respect for our borders.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: All right. Let Cheryl talk now for a minute, would you?

What were you going to say, Cheryl? LITTLE: Under U.S. immigration laws, if an asylum seeker makes it to shore, he or she should be accorded due process and should have a right to make their case for political asylum. That's all the Haitians are asking for, a full and fair opportunity to make that case.

CHUNG: What about concerns of homeland security, Cheryl?

LITTLE: Well, I'm sure that any of these Haitians would not object to being interviewed by the FBI or anybody else, if they were suspected terrorists. I don't believe that's the case.

I haven't had any clients who have not said to me: "Look, if the FBI wants to talk to us, absolutely. We're in America because America is about the land of the free. And this is where democracy is. We'll do anything to help people in this country protect our borders."

CHUNG: Dan, I can see you -- you get the last word.

STEIN: Look, when we give somebody asylum who doesn't deserve it, we're letting people jump in front of millions of people who play by the rules and wait in line for normal immigration. We have been more than fair to Haiti. If they are an asylum seeker, they can make the claim in Port-au-Prince at the U.S. Embassy in Haiti.

LITTLE: No, they can't.

STEIN: Yes, they can.

LITTLE: No, they can't. There's no in-country processing in Haiti.

STEIN: They can make the claim. They can make the claim. And if it's a compelling case, they can have it heard.

CHUNG: Can Florida support the economic burden if Haitians are allowed, Cheryl?

LITTLE: Well, that's a legitimate question, Connie. But most Haitians -- first of all, there aren't large numbers of Haitians fleeing by boat. And, secondly, most Haitians who do flee are interdicted by the U.S. Coast Guard and forcibly repatriated. It's seldom that we see a boatload of Haitians, as we saw yesterday, actually make it to U.S. shores.

CHUNG: Thank you, Cheryl Little, Dan Stein. We appreciate both of you taking the time to be with us.

And still ahead: Would you have the guts to infiltrate the Mafia undercover? You're about to meet a cop who did and took down one of New York's crime families.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: In the macho world of pro football, there is one thing that's taboo. Connie goes first-person with an NFL veteran who reveals his secret -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: You are about to meet a young man who played pro football while keeping a secret from his teammates. Was it drugs, stealing, cheating on or beating his wife? No. In his world, this was worse.

This was about who he loved in a world that judged his love as wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In the testosterone-driven world of sports, games are often referred to as wars and the players compared to gladiators. As a defensive lineman, Esera Tuaolo was one of those gladiators, engaging in football's version of trench warfare every Sunday. He played for five different teams in nine NFL seasons.

And, on Tuesday night, he told the world he is gay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL SPORTS")

TUAOLO: I am a gay NFL -- well, former NFL player.

BERNARD GOLDBERG, HBO REPORTER: How do you feel about that?

TUAOLO: I feel wonderful. I feel like a burden has been lifted. I feel like I've taken off this costume that I've been wearing all my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Tuaolo's life now revolves around his partner, Mitchell, and their 2-year-old adopted twins. When teammates would see Tuaolo with Mitchell, the two would lie and say Mitchell was an agent, manager or friend, fearing what might happen if anyone found out the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL SPORTS")

TUAOLO: No. 1, I'd get hurt. No. 2, my...

GOLDBERG: What do you mean?

TUAOLO: Well, get hurt in the fact that maybe somebody would take me out.

GOLDBERG: You mean go for your knees?

TUAOLO: Go for my knees, try to hurt me.

GOLDBERG: Because you're gay?

TUAOLO: Because I'm gay.

STERLING SHARPE, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Had he come out on a Monday, with Wednesday, Thursday, Friday practices, he'd have never gotten to the other team -- ever.

GOLDBERG: His own guys would have cheap-shotted him?

SHARPE: He would have never gotten to the game on Sunday.

GOLDBERG: So he's finished.

SHARPE: He's done. He would have been eaten alive. And he would have been hated for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: While he's one of the few to admit he's gay, Tuaolo is not the first former NFL player to break sport's great taboo. Dave Kopay, once a ferocious running back in the NFL, announced he was gay in 1975, three years after his retirement.

In other professional sports, the list of openly gay athletes is also a short one, but includes names like Bill Tilden, winner of 10 major tennis titles during the golden age of sports in the 1920s; Martina Navratilova, considered by many the greatest female tennis player ever; and four-time Olympic diving gold medalist Greg Louganis. The figure skating community also includes many homosexuals and was devastated by the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and '90s.

Recently, a pair of sport's most high-profile athletes have publicly defended themselves amidst whispers that they were gay. Pittsburgh Steelers Pro Bowl quarterback Kordell Stewart told a national magazine that he is -- quote -- "100 percent man." Earlier this year, New York Mets star Mike Piazza responded to a speculative magazine article which indirectly questioned his sexuality.

MIKE PIAZZA, NEW YORK METS: The truth is that I'm heterosexual and date women. And that's it.

CHUNG: Piazza's remarks were probably directed more towards his teammates than the public.

In a sports world that forgives drug abusers and wife beaters, Piazza needed to vindicate himself of what might be considered far worse: being gay.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Here with us now: Esera Tuaolo.

Thank you so much for being with us.

TUAOLO: Thank you for having me.

CHUNG: Hey, big guy. You're just a little-bitty thing, right? Oh, my gosh.

TUAOLO: I'm very petite where I'm from. (LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Yes, you are.

When I read about your story, I was just so moved, because it really affected you. You were keeping a secret that was very, very hard for you to hold inside. But, at the same time, you couldn't let it out. It took an emotional toll.

TUAOLO: Very. Very.

CHUNG: How bad was that toll?

TUAOLO: Personally, it was very, very difficult just to live in a world of anxiety and pain and just -- and keeping the secret. It was very hard. It was very hard.

CHUNG: Why did you feel you needed to keep it a secret, especially your teammates?

TUAOLO: You know, right now, I don't think the NFL was ready or anybody was ready for a gay NFL player. And I'm talking during the times that I was playing, the years that I played. I played for nine years in the NFL. So it was -- I didn't feel that they were ready for it.

CHUNG: When you say you don't think that they were ready for it, do you believe that most of the players are homophobic?

TUAOLO: Well, you know, just from hearing some of the comments out there prior to me coming out and stuff -- I'm not sure if you have read some of the media and stuff -- it was some negative things that were said, and then also during my special with -- what Sterling Sharpe said, it kind of gives you a little picture of what type of arena that I was playing in.

And the NFL is such a physical sport, a sport of gladiators and stuff. So, in my nine years playing, I never felt comfortable or any time that I could come out and just be myself. It was -- every day was just a big act.

CHUNG: And you were basically living a lie?

TUAOLO: Very much living a lie.

CHUNG: Did you almost try and kill yourself because of this?

TUAOLO: Yes. Alcohol helped to ease the pain. Or sometimes alcohol was used to just drink to -- and just kind of pray and hope that I don't wake up.

CHUNG: Are you OK?

TUAOLO: I'm fine.

You know, driving home from the club and stuff about 100 miles an hour, and just thinking about turning that wheel and then ending it all. But thank God for my mom. She is the reason for the season. And I love her so much and stuff. And I just always -- she always popped into my head when something like that happened.

CHUNG: Tell me, why do you tear up when you talk about it?

TUAOLO: Well, sitting here talking to you, Connie, it just takes you back. It takes you back to how I felt back then. That's why.

CHUNG: Very painful.

TUAOLO: Very painful. And it's something that I can't explain to anybody until they've lived in my shoes.

CHUNG: Do you really believe that, if you had come out while you were playing for the NFL, that you would have been kicked out, or what?

TUAOLO: Well, just a couple of things. No. 1, I think I would have been released. I would have been cut. No. 2, I think I would have got hurt. Another one would be, I think -- the NFL is all about team. And I think I would have corrupted, well...

CHUNG: You would have corrupted them?

(LAUGHTER)

TUAOLO: Yes, exactly, just because of my secret and stuff. And, also, it wasn't -- I don't think it was time for me to come out during that time.

CHUNG: And how are you feeling now?

TUAOLO: I feel great.

CHUNG: Really?

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Do you really feel as if a load has been taken off your shoulders?

TUAOLO: Oh, my gosh, yes. I feel wonderful.

And one of the reasons why I feel wonderful is, I feel wonderful that I can -- just being able to live my life with my family. And when I say my family, I'm saying my two beautiful children and my partner. And we don't have to fake it anymore. We don't have to sugarcoat anything. We can just live our lives the way we want to live our lives.

And that itself is a beautiful thing, because it's just -- everybody's quest in life is to be happy. And I can tell you right now that I'm very happy.

CHUNG: Yes, but when you walk down the street, do people still kind of stare at the two of you?

TUAOLO: You know what? This has happened so quickly. And things are -- we haven't really had the opportunity to live our life in such openness. But it's going to be interesting, because it's something that we have to get used to, too. But the fun thing about it is that we're going to be doing it together. And so that's really, really exciting.

CHUNG: I'm so happy for you.

And you're a great singer. We should let you -- you should come some time and just sing for us.

TUAOLO: OK, sounds great.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: OK?

TUAOLO: Yes, sounds great. Thank you very much.

CHUNG: All right, thank you. Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Coming up: Tonight, with only days to spare, a former vice president of the United States throws his hat into the ring for Senate.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: the undercover cop who busted the mob wide open.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: He's back. Jeffrey Toobin is back to watch a clip of tape with us.

Thanks, Jeffrey.

I'll do the play-by-play and he'll do the color, right?

TOOBIN: John Madden, me.

CHUNG: Yes. Fine. Great. I am...

TOOBIN: Al Michaels.

CHUNG: Thank you.

TOOBIN: OK.

CHUNG: Let's take a look. This is Winona Ryder on screen again, this time in a security tape playing at her shoplifting trial yesterday. This is really it. This is the tape. She's charged with filching $5,560 and 40 cents worth of stuff, very nice stuff, from Saks Fifth Avenue in Beverly Hills.

And prosecutors say the tape shows Ryder went into fitting rooms with clothing that seemingly disappeared when she came out. And she's pleaded not guilty, but faces up to three years in prison if she's convicted.

And so Jeffrey is here to help us do the color. Wait.

TOOBIN: OK, I'm waiting.

CHUNG: Excuse me. I don't think I saw anything.

TOOBIN: My favorite part of this case is the security guard who first thought she was a bag lady.

(LAUGHTER)

TOOBIN: And so that turned out not to be the case. But she looks just like she's shopping there.

CHUNG: Right.

TOOBIN: A great deal of goods, but not a lot of evidence of criminality on that part of the tape.

CHUNG: So that's not going to help the prosecution?

TOOBIN: No, that's not going to help them.

The case, this epic, epic case comes down, it seems to me, her -- the clipped tags, whether she did in fact clip the tags, because there's some dispute about when the tags were clipped, and, most importantly, her interesting explanation that a director sent her in to shoplift to prepare for a role.

Now, if the jury believes that that's what she said, I think she may be in some trouble. But the tape, I think, is not terribly incriminating.

CHUNG: OK.

TOOBIN: But the key will be, will she get a director to come testify in her defense, and say, "Yes, I told her to..."

CHUNG: I say she will.

TOOBIN: OK. Well, we'll watch. We'll watch.

CHUNG: OK, Jeffrey, thank you.

TOOBIN: OK. CHUNG: When we come back: the cop who would only talk to me if he appeared in disguise. We'll find out why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Not too long ago, the Mafia had its fingers in pretty much everything. And it affected everyone, because protection rackets, hijacking and other lowlife crimes became costs of doing business, costs that were passed on to you. One Mafia-run industry was, appropriately enough, garbage. Cops broke the stranglehold by having the guts to go undercover and infiltrate the Mafia.

This is surveillance video of NYPD Detective Rick Cowan, with his back to us in the white shirt, undercover in an investigation targeting the Genovese crime family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the money out of my kid's mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't think it's happening to me?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not OK. You're eating more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Cowan chronicles his undercover investigation in his new book, "Takedown," and joins us today, with his appearance disguised, to tell us his story in the first person.

Thank you so much for being with us.

RICK COWAN, AUTHOR, "TAKEDOWN": Hi. How are you?

CHUNG: You look nothing like you did in the makeup room.

COWAN: That's good.

CHUNG: Done very well.

COWAN: Thanks.

CHUNG: You are in disguise. And I'm wondering, do you really fear that the Mafia will come after you?

COWAN: I don't think they're going to hunt me down to take revenge. I think these guys -- and hopefully so -- that they've had enough of me. They were all sent to state prison as a result of this case. But it has changed our personal lives significantly. And we're taking steps to make it harder for them to find us.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: You're talking about you? COWAN: Yes.

CHUNG: So you disguise your appearance. Do you come and go as you please, though?

COWAN: Yes, I do.

CHUNG: All right. You were wearing a wire, what, every day for how many years?

COWAN: About three years.

CHUNG: Were you scared?

COWAN: Yes, I was. It's a nerve-wracking experience taping a body recorder to your body. But it's necessary to get good, clear conversations, to record these criminal conspiracies.

CHUNG: Looking at this video, it looks like I'm watching something on television. But it's real.

COWAN: It's very real. What was bad about this is that I had time to think about it. My men were stood off from picking up the garbage at this location in the Bronx on June 1. They reported back to me earlier -- later in the day. So, June 2, I was going to go on the truck with one of my drivers and pick up the garbage, because, if anyone should be in harm's way, it should be me. It was my job to gather evidence and it was my job to be in harm's way, not these innocent truck drivers.

CHUNG: How did you convince the other guys that you were a real garbage man?

COWAN: Well, I fell into this role into a real paper recycling company. And when the mandated laws in the city required all the commercial establishments to separate their garbage from their recyclables, that brought the two industries that historically coexisted together, the garbage business and the paper recycling business, to lock horns. And I was at the right place at the right time.

CHUNG: But I'm talking about your personal relationships with these people. How were you confident that they were going to believe you and believe who you were?

COWAN: Well, I talked a lot like them. I'm a blue-collar kind of guy. I talk in simple words, simple language, like they do. And I had prepared myself all the time to learn the business, so I could talk the talk and walk the walk. And I was able to pull it off.

CHUNG: How many different names, aliases did you have?

COWAN: I was given the name Danny Benedetto (ph). But these guys were picked up on a wire tap calling me Danny, Danny Bridges, because our shop was near a bridge. And they wanted to be covert and not give out guys' last names, so, if someone was listening, they wouldn't know who they were talking about. But they also called me Danny Chambers and a few different names.

CHUNG: You know what I always think, that, one day, while you're working undercover, someone will say, "Hey, Rick" and you turn around.

COWAN: Well, it's a good question. It was always a concern of mine. I lived on Staten Island, the parole capital of the country. It's wise guy central in Staten Island. And it was always a concern that someone would see me. I had a guy living two doors away from me named Jimmy Garbage. He had...

CHUNG: It was really his name?

COWAN: That was his nickname. Everyone called him Jimmy Garbage. But he knew me as Rick. I lived a few doors away.

And this was a concern, that I was working in his field, that environment, that business, and that I was concerned about going to these garbage associations and going to these guys' companies, that I might run into him. It was always a concern. And there was a lot of cases like this.

CHUNG: So you're still working undercover?

COWAN: No, I'm not.

CHUNG: You're not? This is it. You just don't -- your bosses just don't want anybody to come after you. That's all.

COWAN: I'm off the street these days as a result of the case.

CHUNG: OK. Thank you, Rick Cowan.

And still ahead, we'll go live to Minneapolis. The former vice president of the U.S. is about to take the plunge again.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Tonight, former Vice President Walter Mondale is back. Minnesota Democrats formally nominated him just a short time ago for the seat by Senator Paul Wellstone. Wellstone died Friday in a plane crash, with his wife and daughter and five others.

CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl joins us now from Minneapolis.

Jonathan, it's been, what, more than 20 years -- or just almost 20 years since we've heard from Walter Mondale.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's incredible.

This is the person, of course, who served as Jimmy Carter's vice president back in the 1970s. The nomination is now official. Inside the theater behind me, Democrats have made Walter Mondale their choice to carry on for Paul Wellstone in that race for the United States Senate, an election that is now just six days away.

In accepting the nomination, Walter Mondale invoked the name of Paul Wellstone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER MONDALE (D), MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: If there was ever a time to put aside political dogfighting, now is the time. We need to honor what the people of our state are going through. We need time to heal and my campaign must help in that healing. So, tonight, our campaign begins.

I start it with a pledge to you: I will be your voice and I will be Paul Wellstone's voice for decency and hope and better lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: There you see Walter Mondale on the stage there in the theater, surrounded by many of the former campaign staffers for Paul Wellstone.

This is an incredible turn of events. Walter Mondale has not been a political candidate since he ran for president back in 1984 against Ronald Reagan. Back then, by the way, one issue was age, Ronald Reagan's age. Now Walter Mondale is actually one year older than Ronald Reagan was back then in 1984.

And there you see him on the stage with the other current senator from the state of Minnesota, Mark Dayton. Now, Mondale will begin his campaign vigorously tomorrow with an early morning press conference and a statewide tour that will begin with a town hall meeting here in St. Paul, neighboring St. Paul.

Connie, really a Senate campaign like none other in recent memory, probably none other in history -- Connie.

CHUNG: Absolutely, a five-day campaign.

Jonathan, how is the Republican challenger, Norm Coleman, going to run against a former vice president and the memory of a beloved senator?

KARL: Oh, it's absolutely an incredible challenge. I talked to Norm Coleman earlier today. He acknowledged this is an uphill battle.

There was a poll out today by "The Minnesota Star Tribune" even before this that showed that Coleman is eight points behind. It's a tough battle, because, of course, as you mentioned, he is really running against two candidates. He's got the ghost of Paul Wellstone he's running against. All of Wellstone's former staffers are out there energized, trying to win one in Paul's memory. That's what they say, win one for Paul.

And then he's running against this political legend in Minnesota, Walter Mondale. And Norm Coleman, the Republican, said it's a little bit like running against Mount Rushmore. Here's somebody who has been ambassador to Japan, vice president, presidential candidate, senator, on and on, so really an incredible challenge for him and not much time to do it.

CHUNG: All right, Jonathan, in about 15 seconds, I have a feeling they didn't have to twist Mondale's arm very much, that Fritz was jumping at the opportunity. What do you think?

KARL: They certainly didn't. Mondale had told people that, in all his years in service as a vice president, as an ambassador, as a presidential candidate, his favorite time, his best time in public service was as a United States senator. So he was ready to get back.

CHUNG: And he'll go in there with seniority.

Thank you, Jonathan Karl. Appreciate it.

Tomorrow: the woman behind the man. You saw Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose nonstop during the sniper hunt. Well, we'll see the woman behind the man, who saw him when the cameras were gone, his wife.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Heather Mills McCartney tells her story about the life up to and including her marriage to Sir Paul.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





States Immigration Laws Unfair?>


Aired October 30, 2002 - 20:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.

Tonight: the mother of the woman police say may have been the sniper's very first victim.

ANNOUNCER: Long before snipers terrorized the D.C. area, a trail of murder began on the West Coast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Tacoma Police Department now consider John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo as suspects in the Keenya Cook homicide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Was this young mother the first victim of the sniper suspects?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody came to my house and they shot my niece, cold-blooded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, for the first time, the family of a newly linked shooting victim talks about John Allen Muhammad.

A desperate bid for freedom or an invasion of illegal aliens?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people are looking, seeking a better life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The mass exodus fans the flames of a passionate debate. Are U.S. immigration laws fair to all who seek asylum?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I believe that Haitians should be treated like all other people that come to our shores.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: At 6 foot, 3 inches, 310 pounds, NFL veteran Esera Tuaolo felt no fear on the playing field. But, in the locker room, he was afraid his secret life would be exposed. Tonight, he tells his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ESERA TUAOLO, FORMER NFL PLAYER: It made me go further and further into depression.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Why do gay pro athletes live in fear of coming out?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would have been eaten alive and he would have been hated for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: The cop who went undercover to bust the mob's stranglehold on a city's commercial garbage industry. Tonight: breaking a $1.5 billion Mafia cartel.

This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.

CHUNG: Good evening.

Tonight: the woman who may have been the sniper's very first victim. It was 21-year-old Keenya Cook, whose family member had taken a position against John Allen Muhammad in his custody battle. She was killed in February in Tacoma. Now, for the first time, her family tonight will talk about the Muhammad they knew.

Also tonight: Federal officials are denying a report that a Montgomery County detective and FBI agent were possibly on the verge of getting Muhammad to confess when Muhammad was yanked from their hands by federal prosecutors.

We start tonight in Tacoma, where police also suspect Muhammad in a synagogue shooting there.

And reporter Dean Murphy is covering the story for "The New York Times."

Dean, thank you for being with us.

DEAN MURPHY, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": My pleasure.

CHUNG: Tell us, do authorities believe that the so-called synagogue shooting is connected to the shooting of the woman in Tacoma?

MURPHY: They are connected in the sense that the ballistic evidence shows that the guns used in both cases came from the same person. And this person has told the police that John Muhammad and Lee Malvo borrowed his guns frequently between February of this year and July of this year. So, in sense, they are connected in that they come from the same source. And this friend is cooperating with authorities by turning over the guns and allowing the ballistic test to be conducted.

CHUNG: But this is not the alleged firearm that was used in the sniper attack on the East Coast, correct?

MURPHY: Correct. These are different guns. They were recovered here in Tacoma. That's sort of what makes it interesting. These guns are separate from the ones used in the Washington, D.C. area, but they were also ones that apparently were used in crimes.

They are different also in that they were handguns. They were not rifles. This gentlemen, who the police have not identified and who say is not a suspect, but who is cooperating with them, actually turned over five weapons to the authorities: these two handguns, plus another handgun, plus two rifles. And they are still looking into the other three weapons, beyond these two handguns, to determine if maybe they were used in any crimes as well.

CHUNG: Now, do local authorities have any idea what the two alleged suspects were doing the two months before they came east or even went to Alabama?

MURPHY: That picture is still unfolding. But I think these developments in Tacoma help fill it in a little bit. At least now we know that he was here in May with guns and, apparently, at some level, scheming to do other things.

I spoke with a man up in Bellingham, another town near here, where they both were staying for a period of time. And just around the same time in May when these guys supposedly shot the synagogue, they were meeting with him and asking him about altering guns so they could be made silent and talking about crazy scenarios of killing police officers and blowing up gasoline tankers.

This was all in May of this year. And that sort of fills in a little bit of the idea of what these guys were thinking before they left here and headed east.

CHUNG: And no calls were made to the government, the FBI or anyone of these people who might be concerned about what these two suspected snipers might do?

MURPHY: Absolutely. There were calls made. The gentlemen here who turned over the five weapons didn't make any calls until last week, when he saw Muhammad and Malvo on TV being arrested. And then it clicked in his mind that maybe they were doing some bad things with his weapons. But the other gentleman up in Bellingham, he told the FBI in June about the things that Muhammad had told him. He was involved in a domestic violence dispute with his wife. And he told me that the FBI didn't really believe him. They thought he was making up grandiose claims to make up for his misdeeds with his wife. But he did tell me that, last week, they were back at his doorstep wanting to know all about it again.

CHUNG: All right, Dean Murphy, thank you for sharing your fine reporting with us.

Joining us right now from Seattle are the family of Keenya Cook, who was killed in February at the age of 21: Pamala Nichols, Keenya's mother, and Linda Nichols, who is Keenya's aunt.

Thank you for being with us.

Pamala Nichols, tell me about your daughter.

PAMALA NICHOLS, MOTHER OF KEENYA COOK: My daughter Keenya was 21, a month short of being 22 when she was first shot. Keenya was an outgoing person, a lovely person, a lovely mother and daughter. My child loved to sing and dance, which her daughter does now. It keeps us going.

CHUNG: Do you take care of her little daughter?

P. NICHOLS: Yes, I do.

CHUNG: She's just, what, over a year old now?

P. NICHOLS: She's 14 months now.

CHUNG: Now, when did you first realize or believe or suspect that you indeed may know who the alleged killer of your daughter was?

P. NICHOLS: Well, the news came across the television that they had a picture of the sniper and that we could download it on the computer. And I thought: "Well, what about the people that don't have a computer? We need to see this face now on TV."

And then, when it did come across the TV, my brother called me and told me: "Pam, you looking at the TV?"

I said, "Yes, I am."

"Are you watching the news."

I said, "I was, but I turned."

He said: "Well, turn back. We know the guy. We know the sniper."

I said, "What?"

He said, "Yes, it's John." I said, "John? John who?"

He said: "John Muhammad. You remember the guy who fixed the cars and stuff?"

And I was like, "Oh, John Williams?"

He said, "Yes, Muhammad."

I was like, "Oh, my God." When I saw him, I was like, "Oh, my God."

He said, "I think you should call the police, because he didn't care too much for my sister-in-law."

CHUNG: There you go. Well, why don't I have Linda Nichols pick that up from there?

Linda, it is believed that -- by you, I think your family -- that indeed Muhammad was trying to aim his shot at a different relative, not Keenya.

LINDA NICHOLS, AUNT OF KEENYA COOK: Right.

CHUNG: Is that correct?

L. NICHOLS: Right.

CHUNG: Why do you have reason to believe that?

L. NICHOLS: One, Keenya, that we know of, didn't have any enemies. She wasn't even in the house long enough for anything like that to go on.

CHUNG: And your other relative, whose name is Isa, was...

L. NICHOLS: By marriage.

CHUNG: Yes -- was having a bit of a dispute with Muhammad, in that she was supporting his ex-wife in a custody battle. Isn't that correct?

L. NICHOLS: Right. That, we know of. We don't know how long it's been going on.

CHUNG: So do you remember Muhammad? Can you describe him?

L. NICHOLS: Tall, slender, fair-skinned man, around my complexion. He was a quiet person to me, as far as when I did have -- when I did talk with him. You know, he was a quiet person.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: Did you see any signs of violence?

L. NICHOLS: No, ma'am. I sure did not. CHUNG: Was he ever angry?

L. NICHOLS: Not around us.

CHUNG: How about you, Pamala. What do you remember about him? Anything unusual?

P. NICHOLS: Only the day that he came over to have dinner with us. That particular day, we were having dinner and John came over. He did not call. He just showed up. Now, I don't know his reason for just showing up, but he had on a suit that looked like he pulled it out of a duffel bag.

And we were kind of -- we were talking about the way he was dressed. He was supposed to be neatly dressed. He was a little wrinkled. But he did not appear to be upset. He was quiet that day. He came and he left. We didn't even know he left, he was so quiet.

CHUNG: Did he bring along with him the person he called his son, Malvo?

P. NICHOLS: No. We don't know Malvo. The first time we saw Malvo was on TV with John.

CHUNG: Now, do you believe that John Muhammad was in fact the person who allegedly killed your daughter?

P. NICHOLS: I don't think it was John that killed my daughter, because -- the reason why I don't think that is because John knows Isa. He don't know my daughter. Malvo don't know my daughter. So I'm guessing he -- I'm having a very strong feeling and intuition that it was not John Muhammad. It was Malvo.

CHUNG: I see.

All right, well, I thank you so much for being with us, Pamala and Linda Nichols.

P. NICHOLS: You're welcome.

L. NICHOLS: You're welcome.

CHUNG: Although police and prosecutors point to lots of evidence they say they have against Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, the case against them is far from open and shut. No one ever saw them fire, after all. No witnesses placed them at the scene of any shooting. And what else does their defense have going for them?

Well, we asked our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, back once again to help us look at their case.

Jeffrey, if you were representing Malvo, I would assume that you would believe you have a little bit of a chance to put together a decent defense.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, if I were representing Malvo, I would be thankful for one thing, which is that I'm not representing Muhammad, because both these cases are very tough.

But Malvo has somewhat of a better chance, primarily because of the difference in ages, 17 vs. 41. He's so much younger. He's a juvenile. You could start to build an argument, based on what you found, that what he did, if anything, was under duress, was under compulsion, that he was scared, that he was immature, you know, separate him from Muhammad and make the case that, if he did anything, he's not really responsible for it. His will was overborne.

That's the best you can do with Malvo, if you can't prove that they weren't the shooters at all.

CHUNG: All right, what about Muhammad?

TOOBIN: Muhammad is, of course, a very tough case. But here's where we have to remember that we've only heard one side of the story.

We've heard about the ballistic evidence. Is it really good evidence? You have got to do your own ballistic evidence, get your own tests. You have to concentrate on the fact that there are no eyewitnesses. The white van, the white van that we heard so much about and then disappeared, that would obviously be a big linchpin of a defense, that in fact the shooter was in the white van, not in this Caprice.

The other point you have to look at, is look at the Caprice itself. We've heard so much about that it's set up as a sniper's nest, obviously a devastating piece of evidence. You have to come up with some alternative explanation of what the back of the Caprice really was.

CHUNG: How about, a la, O.J. Simpson, a glove?

TOOBIN: There is a glove. But O.J. Simpson had the good fortune of, that was the only piece of evidence that tied his home to the murder scene. Here, unfortunately for John Muhammad, there's a lot more than just the glove.

CHUNG: All right, Jeffrey, thank you, as always.

Still ahead: the professional athlete who breaks his silence, the secret he kept for his entire life.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Next: an unbelievable scene, mothers and children jumping overboard and swimming to freedom, or so they thought.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: This is what the pursuit of opportunity looks like, more than 200 Haitians in a dramatic dangerous bid for a life in America. Men, women and children, some as young as 18 months, rushed to dive into the waters off Miami when their boat ran aground after an eight- day journey.

They struggled to shore, not to escape persecution, but poverty. The average life expectancy in Haiti is 57. And that has led hundreds of Haitians to seek a better life here. But, unlike Cubans, if Haitians make it on to U.S. soil, they don't automatically get to stay. And unlike other refugees, Haitians seeking asylum are held in detention centers until their status is determined.

CNN's Mark Potter joins us from outside the Miami federal courthouse, where six Haitians have been charged with smuggling aliens.

Can you bring us up to date, Mark?

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I sure can, Connie.

Today, as you said, six Haitians were arrested, charged with smuggling the rest into Miami. This, apparently, all according to federal authorities, was the result of an organized smuggling scheme. The six men include the boat owner, three crew members, a mechanic and a person in charge of security, according to an affidavit that was filed by the Immigration and Naturalization Service in support of these arrests.

According to that affidavit, the planning for this trip began last December. And then last week, on October 24, the boat took off from a place described as Shu-shu Bay (ph), Haiti, with some 200 people aboard. It made a stop the next day elsewhere in Haiti, picked up food and fuel and 20 other people, and then headed for Miami.

According to the authorities, it came directly here, no other stops, and took four days to arrive. The passengers allegedly put up moneys, food, other items, services, goods, to help support the trip. And now some of those passengers are being held as material witnesses by the authorities in support of the prosecution -- Connie.

CHUNG: Mark, I want to show you a clip of Florida Governor Jeb Bush, who was facing some tough questioning by Congresswoman Carrie Meek.

Let's play a clip of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CARRIE MEEK (D), FLORIDA: I came to ask you if you would call your brother and ask him to call INS to release the Haitians out of detention. They don't need a new policy. All they have to is call. The wet-foot/dry-foot policy will take effect. Those Haitians are standing on dry land. My blood has been transferred to them, governor.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: Congresswoman, I appreciate your...

QUESTION: I love them.

BUSH: I respect your position. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Well, Mark Potter, I'm wondering if public reaction is the same in the area.

POTTER: It depends on who you talk to. If you talk to people in the Haitian community and among those who support the Haitian community, they're quite angry. They're looking at this as another example of different treatment facing Haitians, as opposed to other immigrants.

If you look at other parts of the community -- I'll be frank with you -- they are concerned that, if this boatload of Haitians is allowed to stay here, than other boatloads will come to Miami. This is an argument that we've seen playing out here in this South Florida area for years and decades, actually, the argument over whether the Haitians should be given the same treatment as Cubans, who are protected by law.

It has not been settled. And it's not going to be settled now, most likely. And, most likely, the Haitians who were stopped will be sent back to Haiti. That's almost everybody's assessment -- Connie.

CHUNG: All right, CNN's Mark Potter in Miami, thank you.

Joining us now with some differing perspectives on this issue, we have, in Washington, Dan Stein, executive director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform; and, from Miami, Cheryl Little, from the Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center.

Thank you both for being with us.

Cheryl, we'll begin with you.

Is it likely that the Haitians who are being held in detention centers will be shipped back immediately?

CHERYL LITTLE, FLORIDA IMMIGRATION ADVOCACY CENTER: Well, if they apply for asylum, they can't be shipped back immediately. There's a process that has to be in place.

The question is, are they going to have to go through the asylum process while in detention or are they going to be released, like all other asylum seekers in the Miami district, and given more ample time to find lawyers and properly prepare their cases?

CHUNG: Dan, the treatment, as we just said, is different for Cubans. Why shouldn't the Haitians be given the same kind of treatment that Cubans are given?

DAN STEIN, EXEC. DIR., FED. FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Cubans are given an exceptional Cold War policy treatment that we at FAIR have argued for 25 years ought to be repealed and we should have one asylum and refugee law for the entire world.

Congress in 1996 laid out a clear mandate. If you have got people who are crashing our borders who don't have any identification, you don't know who they are, don't know their criminal background, and if you have no indication they're going to show up for a hearing, then you are supposed to be detained. And when Congress passes these laws, the INS, for some reason, decides it doesn't have to enforce them.

CHUNG: So, what are you saying? What are you saying? If you want uniformity, what are you saying? Should these Haitians be given an opportunity to stay?

STEIN: No, what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be allowed to crash our borders to make frivolous asylum claims and delay their deportation for what can be years on end. And this has been going on between U.S. and Haiti and Dominican Republic and most Latin American countries and Asian countries and even European countries now for 30 years.

We have got to have serious political leadership. When Dick Gephardt

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: All right, let me just give Cheryl a chance to talk.

Cheryl, it's true that this has been going on for a long time. So give me some fresh ammunition as to why you believe Haitians should be given the opportunity to stay.

LITTLE: Well, let's look at recent U.S. State Department reports that have been very critical of the current political situation in Haiti and have pointed to the increased human rights abuses, increased political killings. Haiti is not a safe place for a lot of people today.

CHUNG: Well, there you go, Dan.

LITTLE: And the police can't protect them. And there's no judicial system to speak of.

CHUNG: Doesn't that say it all, Dan?

STEIN: No, because her argument is about generalized poverty and generally repressive regimes, which would apply to everybody in China and billions of people around the world.

(CROSSTALK)

STEIN: There's going to be poverty all over the world. We have to have a rule of law, a rule of law and a system that allows us to have basic respect for our borders.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: All right. Let Cheryl talk now for a minute, would you?

What were you going to say, Cheryl? LITTLE: Under U.S. immigration laws, if an asylum seeker makes it to shore, he or she should be accorded due process and should have a right to make their case for political asylum. That's all the Haitians are asking for, a full and fair opportunity to make that case.

CHUNG: What about concerns of homeland security, Cheryl?

LITTLE: Well, I'm sure that any of these Haitians would not object to being interviewed by the FBI or anybody else, if they were suspected terrorists. I don't believe that's the case.

I haven't had any clients who have not said to me: "Look, if the FBI wants to talk to us, absolutely. We're in America because America is about the land of the free. And this is where democracy is. We'll do anything to help people in this country protect our borders."

CHUNG: Dan, I can see you -- you get the last word.

STEIN: Look, when we give somebody asylum who doesn't deserve it, we're letting people jump in front of millions of people who play by the rules and wait in line for normal immigration. We have been more than fair to Haiti. If they are an asylum seeker, they can make the claim in Port-au-Prince at the U.S. Embassy in Haiti.

LITTLE: No, they can't.

STEIN: Yes, they can.

LITTLE: No, they can't. There's no in-country processing in Haiti.

STEIN: They can make the claim. They can make the claim. And if it's a compelling case, they can have it heard.

CHUNG: Can Florida support the economic burden if Haitians are allowed, Cheryl?

LITTLE: Well, that's a legitimate question, Connie. But most Haitians -- first of all, there aren't large numbers of Haitians fleeing by boat. And, secondly, most Haitians who do flee are interdicted by the U.S. Coast Guard and forcibly repatriated. It's seldom that we see a boatload of Haitians, as we saw yesterday, actually make it to U.S. shores.

CHUNG: Thank you, Cheryl Little, Dan Stein. We appreciate both of you taking the time to be with us.

And still ahead: Would you have the guts to infiltrate the Mafia undercover? You're about to meet a cop who did and took down one of New York's crime families.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: In the macho world of pro football, there is one thing that's taboo. Connie goes first-person with an NFL veteran who reveals his secret -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: You are about to meet a young man who played pro football while keeping a secret from his teammates. Was it drugs, stealing, cheating on or beating his wife? No. In his world, this was worse.

This was about who he loved in a world that judged his love as wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In the testosterone-driven world of sports, games are often referred to as wars and the players compared to gladiators. As a defensive lineman, Esera Tuaolo was one of those gladiators, engaging in football's version of trench warfare every Sunday. He played for five different teams in nine NFL seasons.

And, on Tuesday night, he told the world he is gay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL SPORTS")

TUAOLO: I am a gay NFL -- well, former NFL player.

BERNARD GOLDBERG, HBO REPORTER: How do you feel about that?

TUAOLO: I feel wonderful. I feel like a burden has been lifted. I feel like I've taken off this costume that I've been wearing all my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Tuaolo's life now revolves around his partner, Mitchell, and their 2-year-old adopted twins. When teammates would see Tuaolo with Mitchell, the two would lie and say Mitchell was an agent, manager or friend, fearing what might happen if anyone found out the truth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL SPORTS")

TUAOLO: No. 1, I'd get hurt. No. 2, my...

GOLDBERG: What do you mean?

TUAOLO: Well, get hurt in the fact that maybe somebody would take me out.

GOLDBERG: You mean go for your knees?

TUAOLO: Go for my knees, try to hurt me.

GOLDBERG: Because you're gay?

TUAOLO: Because I'm gay.

STERLING SHARPE, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Had he come out on a Monday, with Wednesday, Thursday, Friday practices, he'd have never gotten to the other team -- ever.

GOLDBERG: His own guys would have cheap-shotted him?

SHARPE: He would have never gotten to the game on Sunday.

GOLDBERG: So he's finished.

SHARPE: He's done. He would have been eaten alive. And he would have been hated for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: While he's one of the few to admit he's gay, Tuaolo is not the first former NFL player to break sport's great taboo. Dave Kopay, once a ferocious running back in the NFL, announced he was gay in 1975, three years after his retirement.

In other professional sports, the list of openly gay athletes is also a short one, but includes names like Bill Tilden, winner of 10 major tennis titles during the golden age of sports in the 1920s; Martina Navratilova, considered by many the greatest female tennis player ever; and four-time Olympic diving gold medalist Greg Louganis. The figure skating community also includes many homosexuals and was devastated by the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and '90s.

Recently, a pair of sport's most high-profile athletes have publicly defended themselves amidst whispers that they were gay. Pittsburgh Steelers Pro Bowl quarterback Kordell Stewart told a national magazine that he is -- quote -- "100 percent man." Earlier this year, New York Mets star Mike Piazza responded to a speculative magazine article which indirectly questioned his sexuality.

MIKE PIAZZA, NEW YORK METS: The truth is that I'm heterosexual and date women. And that's it.

CHUNG: Piazza's remarks were probably directed more towards his teammates than the public.

In a sports world that forgives drug abusers and wife beaters, Piazza needed to vindicate himself of what might be considered far worse: being gay.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Here with us now: Esera Tuaolo.

Thank you so much for being with us.

TUAOLO: Thank you for having me.

CHUNG: Hey, big guy. You're just a little-bitty thing, right? Oh, my gosh.

TUAOLO: I'm very petite where I'm from. (LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Yes, you are.

When I read about your story, I was just so moved, because it really affected you. You were keeping a secret that was very, very hard for you to hold inside. But, at the same time, you couldn't let it out. It took an emotional toll.

TUAOLO: Very. Very.

CHUNG: How bad was that toll?

TUAOLO: Personally, it was very, very difficult just to live in a world of anxiety and pain and just -- and keeping the secret. It was very hard. It was very hard.

CHUNG: Why did you feel you needed to keep it a secret, especially your teammates?

TUAOLO: You know, right now, I don't think the NFL was ready or anybody was ready for a gay NFL player. And I'm talking during the times that I was playing, the years that I played. I played for nine years in the NFL. So it was -- I didn't feel that they were ready for it.

CHUNG: When you say you don't think that they were ready for it, do you believe that most of the players are homophobic?

TUAOLO: Well, you know, just from hearing some of the comments out there prior to me coming out and stuff -- I'm not sure if you have read some of the media and stuff -- it was some negative things that were said, and then also during my special with -- what Sterling Sharpe said, it kind of gives you a little picture of what type of arena that I was playing in.

And the NFL is such a physical sport, a sport of gladiators and stuff. So, in my nine years playing, I never felt comfortable or any time that I could come out and just be myself. It was -- every day was just a big act.

CHUNG: And you were basically living a lie?

TUAOLO: Very much living a lie.

CHUNG: Did you almost try and kill yourself because of this?

TUAOLO: Yes. Alcohol helped to ease the pain. Or sometimes alcohol was used to just drink to -- and just kind of pray and hope that I don't wake up.

CHUNG: Are you OK?

TUAOLO: I'm fine.

You know, driving home from the club and stuff about 100 miles an hour, and just thinking about turning that wheel and then ending it all. But thank God for my mom. She is the reason for the season. And I love her so much and stuff. And I just always -- she always popped into my head when something like that happened.

CHUNG: Tell me, why do you tear up when you talk about it?

TUAOLO: Well, sitting here talking to you, Connie, it just takes you back. It takes you back to how I felt back then. That's why.

CHUNG: Very painful.

TUAOLO: Very painful. And it's something that I can't explain to anybody until they've lived in my shoes.

CHUNG: Do you really believe that, if you had come out while you were playing for the NFL, that you would have been kicked out, or what?

TUAOLO: Well, just a couple of things. No. 1, I think I would have been released. I would have been cut. No. 2, I think I would have got hurt. Another one would be, I think -- the NFL is all about team. And I think I would have corrupted, well...

CHUNG: You would have corrupted them?

(LAUGHTER)

TUAOLO: Yes, exactly, just because of my secret and stuff. And, also, it wasn't -- I don't think it was time for me to come out during that time.

CHUNG: And how are you feeling now?

TUAOLO: I feel great.

CHUNG: Really?

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: Do you really feel as if a load has been taken off your shoulders?

TUAOLO: Oh, my gosh, yes. I feel wonderful.

And one of the reasons why I feel wonderful is, I feel wonderful that I can -- just being able to live my life with my family. And when I say my family, I'm saying my two beautiful children and my partner. And we don't have to fake it anymore. We don't have to sugarcoat anything. We can just live our lives the way we want to live our lives.

And that itself is a beautiful thing, because it's just -- everybody's quest in life is to be happy. And I can tell you right now that I'm very happy.

CHUNG: Yes, but when you walk down the street, do people still kind of stare at the two of you?

TUAOLO: You know what? This has happened so quickly. And things are -- we haven't really had the opportunity to live our life in such openness. But it's going to be interesting, because it's something that we have to get used to, too. But the fun thing about it is that we're going to be doing it together. And so that's really, really exciting.

CHUNG: I'm so happy for you.

And you're a great singer. We should let you -- you should come some time and just sing for us.

TUAOLO: OK, sounds great.

(LAUGHTER)

CHUNG: OK?

TUAOLO: Yes, sounds great. Thank you very much.

CHUNG: All right, thank you. Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHUNG: Coming up: Tonight, with only days to spare, a former vice president of the United States throws his hat into the ring for Senate.

Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: Still ahead: the undercover cop who busted the mob wide open.

CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: He's back. Jeffrey Toobin is back to watch a clip of tape with us.

Thanks, Jeffrey.

I'll do the play-by-play and he'll do the color, right?

TOOBIN: John Madden, me.

CHUNG: Yes. Fine. Great. I am...

TOOBIN: Al Michaels.

CHUNG: Thank you.

TOOBIN: OK.

CHUNG: Let's take a look. This is Winona Ryder on screen again, this time in a security tape playing at her shoplifting trial yesterday. This is really it. This is the tape. She's charged with filching $5,560 and 40 cents worth of stuff, very nice stuff, from Saks Fifth Avenue in Beverly Hills.

And prosecutors say the tape shows Ryder went into fitting rooms with clothing that seemingly disappeared when she came out. And she's pleaded not guilty, but faces up to three years in prison if she's convicted.

And so Jeffrey is here to help us do the color. Wait.

TOOBIN: OK, I'm waiting.

CHUNG: Excuse me. I don't think I saw anything.

TOOBIN: My favorite part of this case is the security guard who first thought she was a bag lady.

(LAUGHTER)

TOOBIN: And so that turned out not to be the case. But she looks just like she's shopping there.

CHUNG: Right.

TOOBIN: A great deal of goods, but not a lot of evidence of criminality on that part of the tape.

CHUNG: So that's not going to help the prosecution?

TOOBIN: No, that's not going to help them.

The case, this epic, epic case comes down, it seems to me, her -- the clipped tags, whether she did in fact clip the tags, because there's some dispute about when the tags were clipped, and, most importantly, her interesting explanation that a director sent her in to shoplift to prepare for a role.

Now, if the jury believes that that's what she said, I think she may be in some trouble. But the tape, I think, is not terribly incriminating.

CHUNG: OK.

TOOBIN: But the key will be, will she get a director to come testify in her defense, and say, "Yes, I told her to..."

CHUNG: I say she will.

TOOBIN: OK. Well, we'll watch. We'll watch.

CHUNG: OK, Jeffrey, thank you.

TOOBIN: OK. CHUNG: When we come back: the cop who would only talk to me if he appeared in disguise. We'll find out why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Not too long ago, the Mafia had its fingers in pretty much everything. And it affected everyone, because protection rackets, hijacking and other lowlife crimes became costs of doing business, costs that were passed on to you. One Mafia-run industry was, appropriately enough, garbage. Cops broke the stranglehold by having the guts to go undercover and infiltrate the Mafia.

This is surveillance video of NYPD Detective Rick Cowan, with his back to us in the white shirt, undercover in an investigation targeting the Genovese crime family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take the money out of my kid's mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't think it's happening to me?

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not OK. You're eating more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHUNG: Cowan chronicles his undercover investigation in his new book, "Takedown," and joins us today, with his appearance disguised, to tell us his story in the first person.

Thank you so much for being with us.

RICK COWAN, AUTHOR, "TAKEDOWN": Hi. How are you?

CHUNG: You look nothing like you did in the makeup room.

COWAN: That's good.

CHUNG: Done very well.

COWAN: Thanks.

CHUNG: You are in disguise. And I'm wondering, do you really fear that the Mafia will come after you?

COWAN: I don't think they're going to hunt me down to take revenge. I think these guys -- and hopefully so -- that they've had enough of me. They were all sent to state prison as a result of this case. But it has changed our personal lives significantly. And we're taking steps to make it harder for them to find us.

(CROSSTALK)

CHUNG: You're talking about you? COWAN: Yes.

CHUNG: So you disguise your appearance. Do you come and go as you please, though?

COWAN: Yes, I do.

CHUNG: All right. You were wearing a wire, what, every day for how many years?

COWAN: About three years.

CHUNG: Were you scared?

COWAN: Yes, I was. It's a nerve-wracking experience taping a body recorder to your body. But it's necessary to get good, clear conversations, to record these criminal conspiracies.

CHUNG: Looking at this video, it looks like I'm watching something on television. But it's real.

COWAN: It's very real. What was bad about this is that I had time to think about it. My men were stood off from picking up the garbage at this location in the Bronx on June 1. They reported back to me earlier -- later in the day. So, June 2, I was going to go on the truck with one of my drivers and pick up the garbage, because, if anyone should be in harm's way, it should be me. It was my job to gather evidence and it was my job to be in harm's way, not these innocent truck drivers.

CHUNG: How did you convince the other guys that you were a real garbage man?

COWAN: Well, I fell into this role into a real paper recycling company. And when the mandated laws in the city required all the commercial establishments to separate their garbage from their recyclables, that brought the two industries that historically coexisted together, the garbage business and the paper recycling business, to lock horns. And I was at the right place at the right time.

CHUNG: But I'm talking about your personal relationships with these people. How were you confident that they were going to believe you and believe who you were?

COWAN: Well, I talked a lot like them. I'm a blue-collar kind of guy. I talk in simple words, simple language, like they do. And I had prepared myself all the time to learn the business, so I could talk the talk and walk the walk. And I was able to pull it off.

CHUNG: How many different names, aliases did you have?

COWAN: I was given the name Danny Benedetto (ph). But these guys were picked up on a wire tap calling me Danny, Danny Bridges, because our shop was near a bridge. And they wanted to be covert and not give out guys' last names, so, if someone was listening, they wouldn't know who they were talking about. But they also called me Danny Chambers and a few different names.

CHUNG: You know what I always think, that, one day, while you're working undercover, someone will say, "Hey, Rick" and you turn around.

COWAN: Well, it's a good question. It was always a concern of mine. I lived on Staten Island, the parole capital of the country. It's wise guy central in Staten Island. And it was always a concern that someone would see me. I had a guy living two doors away from me named Jimmy Garbage. He had...

CHUNG: It was really his name?

COWAN: That was his nickname. Everyone called him Jimmy Garbage. But he knew me as Rick. I lived a few doors away.

And this was a concern, that I was working in his field, that environment, that business, and that I was concerned about going to these garbage associations and going to these guys' companies, that I might run into him. It was always a concern. And there was a lot of cases like this.

CHUNG: So you're still working undercover?

COWAN: No, I'm not.

CHUNG: You're not? This is it. You just don't -- your bosses just don't want anybody to come after you. That's all.

COWAN: I'm off the street these days as a result of the case.

CHUNG: OK. Thank you, Rick Cowan.

And still ahead, we'll go live to Minneapolis. The former vice president of the U.S. is about to take the plunge again.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CHUNG: Tonight, former Vice President Walter Mondale is back. Minnesota Democrats formally nominated him just a short time ago for the seat by Senator Paul Wellstone. Wellstone died Friday in a plane crash, with his wife and daughter and five others.

CNN congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl joins us now from Minneapolis.

Jonathan, it's been, what, more than 20 years -- or just almost 20 years since we've heard from Walter Mondale.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's incredible.

This is the person, of course, who served as Jimmy Carter's vice president back in the 1970s. The nomination is now official. Inside the theater behind me, Democrats have made Walter Mondale their choice to carry on for Paul Wellstone in that race for the United States Senate, an election that is now just six days away.

In accepting the nomination, Walter Mondale invoked the name of Paul Wellstone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALTER MONDALE (D), MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: If there was ever a time to put aside political dogfighting, now is the time. We need to honor what the people of our state are going through. We need time to heal and my campaign must help in that healing. So, tonight, our campaign begins.

I start it with a pledge to you: I will be your voice and I will be Paul Wellstone's voice for decency and hope and better lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: There you see Walter Mondale on the stage there in the theater, surrounded by many of the former campaign staffers for Paul Wellstone.

This is an incredible turn of events. Walter Mondale has not been a political candidate since he ran for president back in 1984 against Ronald Reagan. Back then, by the way, one issue was age, Ronald Reagan's age. Now Walter Mondale is actually one year older than Ronald Reagan was back then in 1984.

And there you see him on the stage with the other current senator from the state of Minnesota, Mark Dayton. Now, Mondale will begin his campaign vigorously tomorrow with an early morning press conference and a statewide tour that will begin with a town hall meeting here in St. Paul, neighboring St. Paul.

Connie, really a Senate campaign like none other in recent memory, probably none other in history -- Connie.

CHUNG: Absolutely, a five-day campaign.

Jonathan, how is the Republican challenger, Norm Coleman, going to run against a former vice president and the memory of a beloved senator?

KARL: Oh, it's absolutely an incredible challenge. I talked to Norm Coleman earlier today. He acknowledged this is an uphill battle.

There was a poll out today by "The Minnesota Star Tribune" even before this that showed that Coleman is eight points behind. It's a tough battle, because, of course, as you mentioned, he is really running against two candidates. He's got the ghost of Paul Wellstone he's running against. All of Wellstone's former staffers are out there energized, trying to win one in Paul's memory. That's what they say, win one for Paul.

And then he's running against this political legend in Minnesota, Walter Mondale. And Norm Coleman, the Republican, said it's a little bit like running against Mount Rushmore. Here's somebody who has been ambassador to Japan, vice president, presidential candidate, senator, on and on, so really an incredible challenge for him and not much time to do it.

CHUNG: All right, Jonathan, in about 15 seconds, I have a feeling they didn't have to twist Mondale's arm very much, that Fritz was jumping at the opportunity. What do you think?

KARL: They certainly didn't. Mondale had told people that, in all his years in service as a vice president, as an ambassador, as a presidential candidate, his favorite time, his best time in public service was as a United States senator. So he was ready to get back.

CHUNG: And he'll go in there with seniority.

Thank you, Jonathan Karl. Appreciate it.

Tomorrow: the woman behind the man. You saw Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose nonstop during the sniper hunt. Well, we'll see the woman behind the man, who saw him when the cameras were gone, his wife.

And coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Heather Mills McCartney tells her story about the life up to and including her marriage to Sir Paul.

Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night.

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