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CNN Connie Chung Tonight
Balance of Power on the Line in Election 2000; Interview With Atheist Eagle Scout
Aired November 04, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: America prepares to choose the course of its future.
ANNOUNCER: The final hours, tight races across the country. The big guns are out and the balance of power is on the line: "America Votes 2002."
Winona Ryder's Beverly Hills shoplifting trial is headed to the jury. Is the Oscar-nominated actress' acquittal in the bag?
More shootings may be linked to the sniper suspects. And John Lee Malvo goes to federal court. How will his age affect his case?
An Eagle Scout asked to leave his troop because he doesn't believe in God.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARRELL LAMBERT, EAGLE SCOUT: They told me that if those were my beliefs, than I am no longer welcome in scouting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Does Scout's honor mean anything without a belief in a higher power?
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Tonight, it's the final hours for hundreds of candidates to get their message out to America's voters. At stake: issues that affect every single American: the economy, Iraq, al Qaeda, jobs, street crime and corporate crime, health care, abortion rights.
President Bush has been on an intensive campaign tour. He hit four states today. He's focusing on states with close Senate races, such as South Dakota, Minnesota and Texas, and says it's vital for Republicans to win back the Senate so they can approve his policies and put his choices for judgeships on the bench.
Al Gore and other top Democrats are also campaigning, saying not all of the president's policies are good for America. Every single seat in the House of Representatives is also up for grabs. Right now, Republicans hold a slim margin of six seats. And most states, 36 of them, will be picking their governors, including Florida, where the president's brother Jeb is seeking another term in a hotly-contested race.
Joining me now: "TIME" magazine's Mike Weisskopf in Washington, along with Chuck Todd, editor in chief of the online publication "The Hotline." And at the CNN Center in Atlanta, we have Amy Walter, house editor of "The Cook Political Report."
Michael, let's start with you.
President Bush has really extended himself for this off-year election. But early indications seem to point to some measure of success for him. Would you say that that's an accurate projection?
MICHAEL WEISSKOPF, "TIME": We don't know yet, Connie, because most of this will hinge on very close races. But it is a huge gamble for the president.
Predecessors have not extended themselves in the first midterm to this extent. He's raised a great deal of money. He's traveled the country, focusing on the tightest races. A status quo conclusion is not a win for him. If the Republicans gain, it will be a huge win for him. It will scare away Democrats in 2004. It will tremendously add to the money intake by the party. But maintaining status quo or losing a couple of seats will look like a big chick in his armor.
CHUNG: All right. Now on to Amy Walter.
There was a debate today, highly unusual the day before Election Day. And that was in Minnesota, pitting two men. And I think you know them well. Let's take a look at a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: On the issue of partial birth abortion, would you agree that that's...
(CROSSTALK)
WALTER MONDALE (D), MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: I'm opposed to late-term abortion, but I also know that the Constitution says that you must protect the life and the health of the mother...
(CROSSTALK)
COLEMAN: So do you believe parents should be involved in those decisions, Mr. Vice President?
MONDALE: They should be involved, but it's their choice, and it's not a legal question.
You have been an arbitrary right-to-lifer. I am not, and that's one of the big, many issues that divide us.
COLEMAN: Let me just... (END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Amy Walter, of course, that seat that is up for grabs was vacated by Paul Wellstone, who died in a plane crash.
Amy, do you believe that Walter Mondale, who is actually leading in the polls, really needed to do this debate?
AMY WALTER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think for both candidates -- and I think for voter voters, too -- they wanted to get a sense that, even though it is a very shortened campaign, that voters got a fair chance to see both candidates out answering questions.
And, certainly, both had their own issues that they needed to push forward in this debate. For Mondale, certainly, it was proving that he can be aggressive, that he can go into the United States Senate, get the job done, be active, be an advocate.
CHUNG: And that his age was not a problem?
WALTER: That's right. And, certainly, for Coleman, that was -- you heard the term a lot "future, future, future." He used that word as much as possible in that debate, again, trying to get voters back to thinking about age and about, you know, focusing on Mondale's age and then also making sure that voters knew that: "Hey, I'm Norm Coleman. I'm not such a bad guy. You should think about voting for me."
CHUNG: All right.
Chuck Todd, there's another race in which age is an issue, or at least the opponent is trying to make age an issue. And that's New Jersey, Lautenberg. Do you think that Lautenberg can successfully make the voters believe that age is not a problem for him, because he's 78 years old?
CHUCK TODD, "THE HOTLINE": Well, Lautenberg has an advantage over Mondale in that he only left the Senate two years ago. So there was still a fresher remembrance of Lautenberg in the mind of the voters.
There's also an advantage that he has in that New Jersey is such a hard free media state that he didn't get the intensive scrutiny. Because there was sort of a month to let the Torricelli hangover cure itself, he didn't get the scrutiny that Walter Mondale is getting on age. And, quite frankly, Frank Lautenberg looks a little more vigorous on the campaign trail, acts it, has always had this sort of the feistier mentality of who he is. And so I think they haven't been able to successfully make age an issue in New Jersey.
CHUNG: Aren't there any new-generation Democrats in New Jersey and Minnesota that the Democrats could have pulled in at the last minute?
TODD: One of the things that I think that Democrats are getting a little bit of a bad rap on here, with the focus on Mondale and Lautenberg, is that there's going to be at least, by my count, 15 to 20 -- Amy has probably got a better sense of this on the House level, for instance -- of actual incoming members of Congress, Connie, who were born in 1962 or later.
So you're talking about folks under 40. So there are plenty of sort of fresher faces that are coming in. I think there's almost an unfair focus on these -- on Walter Mondale and Lautenberg when it comes to the Democrats.
CHUNG: Michael Weisskopf, a lot of us in the press have been calling the Thune-Johnson election really Bush against Daschle. But are we making more of that than we should?
WEISSKOPF: Probably not, particularly when it comes to the kind of issues they represent.
Both of them are there as kind of loyal spear-carriers for either the president or the Senate majority leader. Their whole identities are sort of stamped out that way. Thune was personally picked by the president. Johnson is a protege of Mr. Daschle's. And they reflect the same kind of view of issues. And it's probably a pretty good surrogate contest, I think.
What muddies the water is the tremendous amount of money that's gone in there. I think they've spent in advertising enough to give each voter $35, which is a tremendous amount in a tiny state.
CHUNG: Amy Walter, the general consensus is that the Republicans probably will be able to hold on to the House. Now, if that is the case, how does that affect Dick Gephardt's chances when he tries to run for president in 2004?
WALTER: Well, it's very interesting looking at the House races here. And, yes, at this point, it does look very likely that Republicans hold on.
Now, remember, if Republicans actually pick up seats in the House, this would be the only third time in history that that has happened, the third time since the Civil War that the party in the White House, holding the White House has picked up seats in Congress. So that's pretty amazing.
For Congressman Gephardt, who certainly has presidential aspirations, this is a man who's worked very, very hard for the Democratic Party for years, toiled in the fields. This man is on the phone, in campaigns day after day. I don't think there is a Democrat out there who thinks that he has not worked hard enough to try to give Democrats control of Congress.
And so I, think among activists and those folks, I don't think it's going to hurt him if Democrats don't take control. Now, the one issue I think may get thrown at him is this concept of vision, leadership, where he wants to take the party. Was he able to do this in the House? Can he be able to translate that as president? That may be the more appropriate question. CHUNG: Chuck Todd, a lot of these races are going to be right down to the wire. Are we going to see some of them decided weeks from now, instead of tonight or tomorrow night?
TODD: I tell you, that's the assumption. All the news media, the networks, on down to print, we're all preparing for this assumption that everything is going to go later. We have the Louisiana runoff possibilities, not just in the Senate, but what if it decided the House?
Yes, you've got to think, though, that a lot of us are hoping the election actually ends within a 48-hour window. I don't think anybody wants to go through what the country went through for 36 days last November and December of 2000.
I think, Minnesota, if you're looking for ground zero of a possible place where we could have all sorts of legal challenges, it's in Minnesota. If somehow Mondale comes a few thousand votes short, Democrats are going to scream bloody murder over the absentee ballots and the fact that people that voted for Paul Wellstone, that their votes weren't going to get counted for Walter Mondale. So Minnesota is sort of the one legal wrangling that we're keeping an eye on.
CHUNG: All right, Chuck Todd, Michael Weisskopf, and Amy Walter, thank you for being with us. We'll be watching tomorrow night.
Keep it right here on CNN tomorrow for continuous coverage of all these elections and more, starting with "AMERICAN MORNING" and heading into the home stretch at 3:00 p.m. Eastern time on Tuesday.
And still ahead: As the list of suspected sniper victims continues to grow, we'll get some inside details on the super maximum security prison where John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo are being held in seven-by-nine-foot cells -- right after this.
ANNOUNCER: Next: a very different stage and a very different audience for an Oscar-nominated actress. A jury may decide her next role.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Winona Ryder's shoplifting trial is nearing its finale, closing arguments. And then the jury will render its verdict. Ryder faces up to three years in prison on charges including grand theft and burglary for allegedly taking $5,500 worth of clothing and other items from Saks Fifth Avenue.
Joining me now once more with some of the legal -- and let's face it, it's entertaining -- aspects of the trial, our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who's had a change in venue and is in South Florida; covering the trial in Los Angeles, Pat LaLama from "Celebrity Justice."
Thank you both for being with us. Pat, we've been reading that there was a setback today because one of the defense witnesses that Winona's lawyer was depending on was a disaster and therefore didn't testify. Is that true?
PAT LALAMA, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, what happened was that, at the last minute, Mark Geragos, the attorney for Winona Ryder, wanted to bring to the stand a woman who was apparently the former roommate of one of the Saks Fifth Avenue witnesses. And she was supposed to testify with some damning information about Colleen Rainey.
But the judge didn't allow it. He said: "Too late. Too bad. Go away." So that didn't happen. And they immediately went into closing argument for the prosecution.
CHUNG: OK. So, there was another thing that the judge didn't allow. And that was an alleged admission of guilt. What happened there?
LALAMA: It's very interesting and it's very, very underreported. We are not sure why.
But on the night of December 12, while she was being detained, Winona Ryder -- and it's in court transcripts -- we know this to be a fact -- Winona Ryder signed a confession statement, saying literally, "I, Winona Ryder, admit to stealing these various items." Now, the judge did not allow it. It was not allowed to be introduced. We're not sure why.
There might have been some issue about her Miranda rights having not been read. We're not really certain at this point. But we do know he didn't allow it. However, if Mark Geragos had brought Winona Ryder to the stand, that would have opened the door. And that would have meant that the prosecution could have come back with that confession and used it to impeach her. And that might be why Winona Ryder was not called to the stand.
CHUNG: Jeffrey, what I don't understand is, why didn't she plea- bargain? Why didn't she accept one that they had given her?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, one explanation is that the prosecution thought they had such a good case and thought their evidence was so strong, they didn't offer her a misdemeanor plea.
CHUNG: But I thought they did offer her one.
TOOBIN: Well, I think there's some mystery about that in the ever-deepening mysteries about the Winona Ryder case. The nature of what, if any plea bargain was offered, I think is somewhat unclear, at least it is to.
But surely, most shoplifting cases do not go to trial. And it seems odd that this one did. But everything about this case is odd.
(LAUGHTER) CHUNG: Pat, you have to tell us the story about Michael Shoar, this man who testified on Friday. But don't make it really long. Just give us the highlights.
LALAMA: Are you trying to tell me I talk too much, Connie?
CHUNG: No, Pat.
LALAMA: All right, I'll give you the highlights.
A former employee of Saks testified that he had had lunch with a Saks security guard who was the key witness in the prosecution. That would be Ken Evans. And he claimed that, after Winona was arrested, he had lunch with Ken and that Ken said: "We are going to nail that Beverly Hills 'expletive.'" And we're going to get her one way or another. And she's going down."
But it turned out that this guy is a disgruntled former employee of Saks. He has a lawsuit against Saks. There is a trespass rule on him. He's not allowed to step foot on the property. And so that took a little bit of the thunder out of the defense's case.
CHUNG: And then there was one other thing.
TOOBIN: I...
CHUNG: Oh, go ahead.
TOOBIN: I just have a question. It's still somewhat mysterious to me sort of what the defense is in this case.
CHUNG: I was going to ask you that.
TOOBIN: Is the defense that she did pay for the goods? Is the defense that she thought she had paid for the goods, that she thought someone else was going to pay for the goods, that they planted these goods on her? What is the defense here, Pat? I don't quite get it.
LALAMA: Well, I think, Jeffrey, it's sort of like a pizza. You throw it up and you see if it sticks.
I think it's all over the place. I think, at first, it sounded like he was going to paint this as a case where the prosecution just wanted to get a celebrity. And then it was another thing where she was forced to sign this confession under duress and she intended all along to pay for these things. I think it depends on the day what the defense is hoping to prove.
But I have to tell you something about the closing argument on the part of the prosecution. It was humorous. I have to say it was very serious, but humorous that Ann Rundle gave the jury the top 10 things the law doesn't say.
Do I have time to give you a couple of them?
CHUNG: Sure. Go ahead. LALAMA: OK, I'll give you three. No. 1: "Only poor people steal. The law does not say that only poor people steal. The law does not say that a crime is OK if your director tells you to do it." And one of my favorites also, "The law does not say that, if you sell $200 hair bows, you deserve to be ripped off."
She simplified it all in the end by saying: "Winona came. She stole. She went."
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Oh, dear. Poor Winona.
Pat LaLama, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.
Still ahead: the man who's battling his in-laws over whether to take his wife off life-support.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Next: Sniper suspect John Lee Malvo goes to court. Will he too face federal charges for the nationwide murder spree?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Did the Washington area snipers first strike there earlier than anyone knew? CNN has learned that the Sony laptop police found when they caught John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo is the same model as one stolen from a shooting victim on September 5, a month before the sniper spree began.
Meantime, Malvo had a closed-door detention hearing in federal court today. And Muhammad has his tomorrow in open court.
Joining us now with details on the supermax prison where the two are being held, we have "Washington Times" reporter Matt Cella.
Matt, thank you for being with us.
MATT CELLA, REPORTER, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Thank you.
CHUNG: What can you tell us about that September 5 shooting, because it seems as if various parts of this puzzle are now fitting?
CELLA: Well, it does.
But the September 5 shooting, the most interesting thing is that the M.O. of it doesn't match any of the sniper shootings at all. Police were telling us that it was an ambush shooting, that a man who was locking his restaurant was walking across the parking lot. And there was no announcement made of a robbery. The suspects came upon him and shot him six times, stole $3,000 from him and the laptop computer that you mentioned. He didn't get a look at whoever fired the weapon, other than to say that it was a black male. But there was no vehicle seen in that case.
CHUNG: Did he notice any others with that one black male?
CELLA: No.
CHUNG: He didn't. And, once again, the type of gun that was used?
CELLA: I'm sorry?
It was a .22 caliber. He's saying that it was a .22 caliber. Police at this point are just saying it was a small-caliber handgun.
CHUNG: I see. And he was shot six times, which is incredible. But he survived.
CELLA: He survived. He survived. He does have some lingering damage, some nerve damage to his hand. But he survived the shooting.
CHUNG: All right.
Can you tell us if Malvo and Muhammad are being held in the same prison and whether they're able to see each other?
CELLA: Yes, they are being held in the same prison.
It's a super maximum security prison in downtown Baltimore known as the Supermax. But they are not being allowed to see each other. There's no contact between them, correctional officials have told us. The prison is the place where they take the prison population that can't get along in a regular penitentiary. It's the highest of the high-security prisons.
CHUNG: And do they have any time outside of their cells, do you know?
CELLA: It's very unlikely. The people that we spoke with wouldn't tell us exactly what kind of security restrictions that they've got.
But they gave us what the average day is like for a federal pretrial detainee who's being held at this prison. That day does include about six hours out in a common area. But these officials were also careful to tell us that there are different arrangements set up for these two suspects. And those arrangements likely include being kept in their cells and being denied visitors, except for, of course, lawyers.
CHUNG: Are they allowed phone privileges to family members?
CELLA: No. Those are among the other privileges that can be restricted if additional security is needed, along with the ability to watch TV. Most of the federal pretrial detainees can go into areas where they can watch television. It's highly likely that these two suspects are not in that group.
CHUNG: Do you have any idea -- are they being held in this restricted area, because of -- they fear their own safety, in other words, the authorities are protecting them in some way because the crimes they're accused of are so very heinous?
CELLA: I think it's a combination of both. I think they want to make sure that this goes -- that, for the time at that they're in this institution, everything goes very smoothly.
Now, they wouldn't tell us where they're being held. They wouldn't tell us if they're with the state prisoners who come to the facility because they can't behave or whether they are with the federal pretrial detainees. But the one thing that they did say is that there's no prisoner that can come to this institution that can match the security that they've got in place.
So I think that the lights are always on. They can always check on the prisoners to make sure that there's -- that they're not up to anything, for their own safety as well as for the safety of the guards and the prison population, and thwarting any attempt at escape.
CHUNG: All right, Matt Cella, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.
And still ahead: They gave him one week to decide: Believe in God or get kicked out of the Boy Scouts. What will he do? We'll ask him.
ANNOUNCER: Next: a husband's life-or-death decision, his wife 12 years on life support and little hope for recovery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, HUSBAND OF TERRI SCHIAVO: She wouldn't want to survive like this. And that's she doing is just, she's surviving. There's nothing there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: His emotional tug-of-war -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tonight: a heartbreaking story, one that has brought tears and agony to one family for more than a decade. It has split a family, pitting a husband against his wife's parents. The quandary is unimaginable. Should a woman attached to life support live or die? You'll meet her husband in just a moment.
But first, CNN's Mark Potter has Terri's story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For more than a decade, 38-year-old Terri Schiavo has been in a coma-like state after suffering cardiac failure and massive brain damage.
MARY SCHINDLER, MOTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Hi, baby. It's mommy. Hi. What's the matter?
POTTER: Terri breathes on her own, but must be nourished through a feeding tube. At issue is whether to remove the tube and end her life. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, is also her legal guardian and says, after years of failed treatment, it is time for her to die with dignity.
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, HUSBAND OF TERRI SCHIAVO: She wouldn't want to live like this. She wouldn't want to survive like this. And that's she doing is just, she's surviving. There's nothing there.
POTTER: Schiavo claims his wife told him and others she would never want to live on life support. But her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, argue she would have never said that. They are fighting vigorously to prevent their daughter from being killed.
BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: It's inhumane. How in the world can you starve someone to death that is cognizant? She's a person. I mean, it would be like starving you to death.
POTTER: Last year, Terri's husband won a court ruling to have her feeding tube removed. Her parents appealed. And three days later, the tube was put back in. Recently, the case was recently reheard. Two doctors selected by the husband and one by the court testified Terri is in a persistent vegetative state and beyond help.
DR. PETER BAMBAKIDIS, NEUROLOGIST: Unfortunately, I know of no single treatment or combination of treatments that could result in any meaningful improvement in her current situation.
POTTER: The parents, however, insist Terri is aware of her surroundings and have produced a videotape attempting to prove her responsiveness.
B. SCHINDLER: You remember that? You used to laugh at that? You used to get mommy all upset when you did that to her.
POTTER: Two doctors selected by the family testified Terri is not brain-dead and can be treated.
DR. WILLIAM MAXFIELD, RADIOLOGIST: There was a pianist that played some of her favorite songs. And she did react to these, and, in my opinion, almost as if she was trying to sing.
POTTER: But doctors and the attorney representing the husband say those responses are purely involuntary.
GEORGE FELOS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL SCHIAVO: Vegetative patients can respond to the environment. So can plants. If you put a plant by that window, it will grow towards the light. It doesn't mean it's not a vegetable.
POTTER: In closing arguments, the parent's attorney said Terri still wants to survive.
PATRICIA ANDERSON, ATTORNEY FOR SCHINDLERS: She has shown us her spirit. She's trying to answer that question that, "Yes, I'm in here."
Now, Judge, would she try this hard if she wanted to die?
POTTER (on camera): The fight between the parents and the husband has grown increasingly bitter, with each side accusing the other of being more concerned about money from malpractice suits than Terri's actual welfare. Judge George Greer says he will rule on Terri's fate November 22.
Mark Potter, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: So what would you do if you were in this situation?
Joining me now from Tampa are Michael Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos.
Michael, why are you fighting so hard to have your wife's feeding tube removed?
SCHIAVO: Because this is what Terri wanted.
CHUNG: How do you know she would want that?
SCHIAVO: She made those comments to me. She made comments to my brother. She made comments to my sister-in-law.
CHUNG: In what context?
SCHIAVO: With my brother, it was regarding my grandmother's death. She was put on a ventilator against her wishes. And Terri made the comment to my brother that she would never want that.
CHUNG: Why, then, Michael didn't she sign a living will?
SCHIAVO: I can't answer that. We were 25 years old at that time.
FELOS: Connie, I think, statistically, only about 15 percent of adult Americans have living wills. And, obviously, the vast majority of those are older Americans. I think it would be very rare for a young person like Terri, 25, to reflect her wishes in writing.
CHUNG: Michael, did you or your wife have wills?
SCHIAVO: No. We did not.
CHUNG: I see. So, you thought it would be most unusual for her to sign a living will at her age, certainly.
SCHIAVO: To me, you make comments. And it has been shown in statistics like my attorney said that people don't -- the vast majority of people don't have living wills. They make comments through special things that happen or people that die or they see something on TV.
FELOS: Connie, at 25 years old, most 25-year-olds don't think about death.
CHUNG: No, I hear you, Michael. I understand. I understand. You really did answer that question for me. I appreciate it.
Michael Schiavo, do you have any doubts? Do you think about it sometimes and say to yourself, "Maybe I'm not doing the right thing?"
SCHIAVO: No, I don't have any doubts.
CHUNG: Why are....
SCHIAVO: You know, Connie, I worked very hard with Terri to bring her back. Legions of doctors have seen Terri. And when doctor after doctor after doctor tells you that there's no hope, your wife will be in this state for the rest of her life...
CHUNG: Well, Michael, her parents point to a couple of reasons why you would feel this way. And one is that you have a girlfriend and you have a baby girl with her. Obviously, you appear to want to move on with your life. And the other reason is that you would come into some money.
SCHIAVO: Well, Connie, the money really doesn't have any factor here, because I have offered to donate that money three or four times publicly to a charity. The Schindlers refused that offer.
CHUNG: Why don't you just leave your wife on life support, allow that money to pay for her hospital costs, and go on your way?
SCHIAVO: Well, No. 1, I'm not going to run away. The question can be posed, would you run away?
CHUNG: No, I'm sorry. I said "go on your way."
SCHIAVO: Go on my way? Because I'm telling you, I'm not going to leave Terri in this situation. I'm not going to run away from it. No. 2, back in the 2000 trial, Mr. Schindler was on the stand and testified.
CHUNG: That's your father-in-law.
SCHIAVO: Yes. He was put into a hypothetical situation. And he was asked, if he had guardianship of Terri and Terri became ill and received gangrene in one of arms, would he have it removed? And he said yes. Then he moved on to getting gangrene in her leg. And he said he would have that removed. By the time we were done, Terri had no limbs and she was on a ventilator.
I wouldn't want to leave Terri with a person that would do something like that to somebody else, just because it's what he wants. CHUNG: But, Michael...
SCHIAVO: And he has already testified that it doesn't matter what Terri wanted. It's what he wants.
CHUNG: Michael, but you will admit that, now you have a girlfriend and that you have a child by that woman, that you apparently do want to start a different life and a new life away from this wife that you have.
SCHIAVO: Well, I got on with a portion of my life. But I still will stick by my wife and make sure that her wishes are carried out.
FELOS: Connie, I want to add that there are many, many situations where there are very long-term marriages, especially elderly spouse, and one has Alzheimer's. And they don't recognize their spouse. They have to be institutionalized.
Should those people just die alone or should they be able to form new relationships and have some companionship? I mean, I think that happens many times. But they don't abandon their spouse. They make sure that they have proper care and that the spouse's wishes are carried out. And that's what Michael is trying to do, is carry out Terri's wishes in this case.
CHUNG: Michael Schiavo, what about the responses that her parents think that she's giving to them?
SCHIAVO: Terri has made those same responses for 13 years, Connie. She makes them to me. She makes them to the people in the nursing home. There's notes by the nurses there that Terri makes those noises when nobody is in the room.
That's part of being in a persistent vegetative state. Persistent-vegetative-state patients will sometimes laugh. They groan. They moan. They will have tears. They have sleep-wake cycles. But the higher level of consciousness is gone.
CHUNG: But aren't there other examples of people who have come out of a vegetative state? Granted, a miracle and highly unlikely and not considered to be likely, according to the doctors who have examined your wife, but it has happened.
SCHIAVO: There has been some instances, but they have been -- probably the longest, I believe I was told, was...
FELOS: Fifteen months.
SCHIAVO: Fifteen months.
CHUNG: All right, Michael Schiavo and George Felos, thank you both for being with us.
And still ahead: the Boy Scout who was given one week to believe in God or he would be expelled. What will he do?
We'll ask him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Nineteen-year-old Boy Scout Darrell Lambert has been told that, if he's an atheist, if he doesn't believe in God, he can't be a Boy Scout anymore -- that's right -- even though Lambert has earned 37 merit badges, done more than 1,000 hours of community service and is an Eagle Scout, the highest rank. The Boy Scouts have given him a week to say that he believes in God or some supernatural entity or get kicked out.
The Boy Scouts declined to appear on camera, but released a statement saying in part -- quote -- "In the Boy Scout oath, a Scout recognizes his duty to God. And the Scout law requires a Scout to be reverent. All that is required is the acknowledgement of belief in God, as stated in the oath, and the ability to be reverent, as stated in the Scout law."
Joining us now from Seattle is Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert, along with his mother, Trish Lambert.
Thank you for being with us.
Darrell, I understand you just got word. What did you learn?
DARRELL LAMBERT, EAGLE SCOUT: Well, on the way over here, I called -- I called Brad Farmer, our council executive. And he told me that, since my beliefs have stayed the same for the past two weeks -- or week and a half -- that I am no longer welcome in scouting and that my registration will be sent back to me and I'll get my letter in a couple days.
CHUNG: Oh, my gosh. Well, how do you feel about that?
D. LAMBERT: I think it's a disgrace. It's the wrong thing to do. And I'm preparing to fight it. I'll go to the appeals and the regional office, and national, if I have to go there.
CHUNG: So you can no longer be a part of the Boy Scouts. But you do serve also as a volunteer, correct?
D. LAMBERT: Right.
CHUNG: What about that aspect of your Boy Scout duty?
D. LAMBERT: I don't know if I have to disassociate myself with the troop. My troop has expressed that they want me to stay. So I'll try to do that. But I asked them, the Chief Seattle Council, back on Wednesday if I had to drop out if they sent back my registration. And they haven't got back to me. They didn't say if I could just be an unregistered leader.
CHUNG: All right.
Let's go back in time, then. When you became an Eagle Scout in April of 2001, what did you tell them about your beliefs? D. LAMBERT: At my Eagle board, at the end of it, I told them that I didn't believe in God. And they still passed me. They even commended me on my honesty and courage to say something. I elected to say it out of my own free will.
CHUNG: So, was it your belief at that time that, even though you didn't believe in God and you knew what the rules were at the Boy Scouts, that this was fine?
D. LAMBERT: Yes. I didn't think they'd actually kick someone out for them. So I just -- I didn't think that they would do something like that.
CHUNG: Why didn't you, Darrell, because you know the rules? You're an Eagle Scout. And if you know all the rules to abide by and all the merits, then you should know that that's a requirement.
D. LAMBERT: Well, the main thing that they're saying is that I don't abide by the Scout oath, "duty to God." Well, if you read more into the Scout oath, it say that you are supposed to be physically strong, which includes mental and physical fitness. We're not kicking people out for not exercising regularly, are we?
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Well, that's a good point.
D. LAMBERT: It says it right there in the Scout oath.
CHUNG: I see.
D. LAMBERT: The Chief Seattle Council is telling me that I'm picking and choosing what laws or rules I'm abiding by, but so are they. So they're not exactly being fair.
CHUNG: What do you believe in? Do you believe in any higher being?
D. LAMBERT: No, I don't. I don't believe that there's any ruling or guiding force in the universe. I believe in science. And I just don't believe in a God.
CHUNG: When did this belief start? Did you used to go to church when you were a kid?
D. LAMBERT: I never really went to a church. Before ninth grade or before I was about 14, I was agnostic. I wasn't really sure what I believed in. I researched a lot into it, learning more about religion and the science aspect of things, not saying they have to compete with each other.
And I went to church youth group and different things like that, Bible study classes. And I just came to the point where evolution all seemed to make sense. And I generally believe in the physical parameters. If I can't see it or that kind of stuff, I don't necessarily believe in it too well. CHUNG: Trish, do you believe in God?
TRISH LAMBERT, MOTHER OF DARRELL: Yes, I would say I do -- or a higher deity.
CHUNG: Do you go to church?
T. LAMBERT: I don't go to church.
CHUNG: Oh, you don't?
T. LAMBERT: No, I don't. No.
CHUNG: What about Darrell's father and your daughter as well? Do they believe in God?
T. LAMBERT: My husband, no. He doesn't either. And one of my daughters doesn't either. The other one is probably agnostic, I would say.
CHUNG: Where do you think your son developed this line of thinking?
T. LAMBERT: From school, doing science and biology in school. He's always been interested in sciences and that sort of thing. And, to him, it was evolution.
CHUNG: And what do you think of his determination here to fight it?
T. LAMBERT: You know what? I think it's really good. And Darrell is not just fighting this for himself. He's fighting this for all the Scouts that have no real belief in God.
CHUNG: Darrell, are you going to appeal?
D. LAMBERT: Yes. I'll appeal it to regional and then national, if I have to.
CHUNG: And if it's taken to national, is that just about the full extent of the path you can go?
D. LAMBERT: Within the organization, that's about as far as you can go.
CHUNG: And would you be willing to go out and file some kind of lawsuit, if you could?
D. LAMBERT: I haven't gotten enough information on that to really answer the question. But I have been talking to different attorneys that have fought this issue before, just getting advice from them.
CHUNG: All right. Are you demoralized in any way?
D. LAMBERT: No, not at all. CHUNG: And you sound kind of determined.
D. LAMBERT: Yes, very much so.
CHUNG: All right, Darrell Lambert and Trish Lambert, thank you so much for being with us.
And still ahead: It's the eve of an extraordinary day that will affect the future of America's economy, the course of American military action, and the life of every single American. And we've got big plans for the day.
Stay with us for a quick preview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We end tonight where we began.
Tomorrow is Election Day. Just a handful of elections could shift control of the Senate or the House and dramatically affect America's future. With so many issues at stake, the economy, Iraq, President Bush's picks for federal judgeships, CNN will have continuous coverage all day, kicking off with a special edition of "THE CAPITAL GANG" at 3:00 p.m. Eastern.
We'll also have special election editions of "INSIDE POLITICS" and "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." As the polls starts to close, CNN's "America Votes 2002" coverage begins at 6:00 p.m. Eastern time. How long it goes, well, that is up to you, America's voters, and the people who count the ballots. And that's what makes it so exciting.
Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Dan Rather. Did I say that?
Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
With Atheist Eagle Scout>
Aired November 4, 2002 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CONNIE CHUNG, HOST: Good evening. I'm Connie Chung.
Tonight: America prepares to choose the course of its future.
ANNOUNCER: The final hours, tight races across the country. The big guns are out and the balance of power is on the line: "America Votes 2002."
Winona Ryder's Beverly Hills shoplifting trial is headed to the jury. Is the Oscar-nominated actress' acquittal in the bag?
More shootings may be linked to the sniper suspects. And John Lee Malvo goes to federal court. How will his age affect his case?
An Eagle Scout asked to leave his troop because he doesn't believe in God.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARRELL LAMBERT, EAGLE SCOUT: They told me that if those were my beliefs, than I am no longer welcome in scouting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Does Scout's honor mean anything without a belief in a higher power?
This is CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT. Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York: Connie Chung.
CHUNG: Tonight, it's the final hours for hundreds of candidates to get their message out to America's voters. At stake: issues that affect every single American: the economy, Iraq, al Qaeda, jobs, street crime and corporate crime, health care, abortion rights.
President Bush has been on an intensive campaign tour. He hit four states today. He's focusing on states with close Senate races, such as South Dakota, Minnesota and Texas, and says it's vital for Republicans to win back the Senate so they can approve his policies and put his choices for judgeships on the bench.
Al Gore and other top Democrats are also campaigning, saying not all of the president's policies are good for America. Every single seat in the House of Representatives is also up for grabs. Right now, Republicans hold a slim margin of six seats. And most states, 36 of them, will be picking their governors, including Florida, where the president's brother Jeb is seeking another term in a hotly-contested race.
Joining me now: "TIME" magazine's Mike Weisskopf in Washington, along with Chuck Todd, editor in chief of the online publication "The Hotline." And at the CNN Center in Atlanta, we have Amy Walter, house editor of "The Cook Political Report."
Michael, let's start with you.
President Bush has really extended himself for this off-year election. But early indications seem to point to some measure of success for him. Would you say that that's an accurate projection?
MICHAEL WEISSKOPF, "TIME": We don't know yet, Connie, because most of this will hinge on very close races. But it is a huge gamble for the president.
Predecessors have not extended themselves in the first midterm to this extent. He's raised a great deal of money. He's traveled the country, focusing on the tightest races. A status quo conclusion is not a win for him. If the Republicans gain, it will be a huge win for him. It will scare away Democrats in 2004. It will tremendously add to the money intake by the party. But maintaining status quo or losing a couple of seats will look like a big chick in his armor.
CHUNG: All right. Now on to Amy Walter.
There was a debate today, highly unusual the day before Election Day. And that was in Minnesota, pitting two men. And I think you know them well. Let's take a look at a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: On the issue of partial birth abortion, would you agree that that's...
(CROSSTALK)
WALTER MONDALE (D), MINNESOTA SENATE CANDIDATE: I'm opposed to late-term abortion, but I also know that the Constitution says that you must protect the life and the health of the mother...
(CROSSTALK)
COLEMAN: So do you believe parents should be involved in those decisions, Mr. Vice President?
MONDALE: They should be involved, but it's their choice, and it's not a legal question.
You have been an arbitrary right-to-lifer. I am not, and that's one of the big, many issues that divide us.
COLEMAN: Let me just... (END VIDEO CLIP)
CHUNG: Amy Walter, of course, that seat that is up for grabs was vacated by Paul Wellstone, who died in a plane crash.
Amy, do you believe that Walter Mondale, who is actually leading in the polls, really needed to do this debate?
AMY WALTER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think for both candidates -- and I think for voter voters, too -- they wanted to get a sense that, even though it is a very shortened campaign, that voters got a fair chance to see both candidates out answering questions.
And, certainly, both had their own issues that they needed to push forward in this debate. For Mondale, certainly, it was proving that he can be aggressive, that he can go into the United States Senate, get the job done, be active, be an advocate.
CHUNG: And that his age was not a problem?
WALTER: That's right. And, certainly, for Coleman, that was -- you heard the term a lot "future, future, future." He used that word as much as possible in that debate, again, trying to get voters back to thinking about age and about, you know, focusing on Mondale's age and then also making sure that voters knew that: "Hey, I'm Norm Coleman. I'm not such a bad guy. You should think about voting for me."
CHUNG: All right.
Chuck Todd, there's another race in which age is an issue, or at least the opponent is trying to make age an issue. And that's New Jersey, Lautenberg. Do you think that Lautenberg can successfully make the voters believe that age is not a problem for him, because he's 78 years old?
CHUCK TODD, "THE HOTLINE": Well, Lautenberg has an advantage over Mondale in that he only left the Senate two years ago. So there was still a fresher remembrance of Lautenberg in the mind of the voters.
There's also an advantage that he has in that New Jersey is such a hard free media state that he didn't get the intensive scrutiny. Because there was sort of a month to let the Torricelli hangover cure itself, he didn't get the scrutiny that Walter Mondale is getting on age. And, quite frankly, Frank Lautenberg looks a little more vigorous on the campaign trail, acts it, has always had this sort of the feistier mentality of who he is. And so I think they haven't been able to successfully make age an issue in New Jersey.
CHUNG: Aren't there any new-generation Democrats in New Jersey and Minnesota that the Democrats could have pulled in at the last minute?
TODD: One of the things that I think that Democrats are getting a little bit of a bad rap on here, with the focus on Mondale and Lautenberg, is that there's going to be at least, by my count, 15 to 20 -- Amy has probably got a better sense of this on the House level, for instance -- of actual incoming members of Congress, Connie, who were born in 1962 or later.
So you're talking about folks under 40. So there are plenty of sort of fresher faces that are coming in. I think there's almost an unfair focus on these -- on Walter Mondale and Lautenberg when it comes to the Democrats.
CHUNG: Michael Weisskopf, a lot of us in the press have been calling the Thune-Johnson election really Bush against Daschle. But are we making more of that than we should?
WEISSKOPF: Probably not, particularly when it comes to the kind of issues they represent.
Both of them are there as kind of loyal spear-carriers for either the president or the Senate majority leader. Their whole identities are sort of stamped out that way. Thune was personally picked by the president. Johnson is a protege of Mr. Daschle's. And they reflect the same kind of view of issues. And it's probably a pretty good surrogate contest, I think.
What muddies the water is the tremendous amount of money that's gone in there. I think they've spent in advertising enough to give each voter $35, which is a tremendous amount in a tiny state.
CHUNG: Amy Walter, the general consensus is that the Republicans probably will be able to hold on to the House. Now, if that is the case, how does that affect Dick Gephardt's chances when he tries to run for president in 2004?
WALTER: Well, it's very interesting looking at the House races here. And, yes, at this point, it does look very likely that Republicans hold on.
Now, remember, if Republicans actually pick up seats in the House, this would be the only third time in history that that has happened, the third time since the Civil War that the party in the White House, holding the White House has picked up seats in Congress. So that's pretty amazing.
For Congressman Gephardt, who certainly has presidential aspirations, this is a man who's worked very, very hard for the Democratic Party for years, toiled in the fields. This man is on the phone, in campaigns day after day. I don't think there is a Democrat out there who thinks that he has not worked hard enough to try to give Democrats control of Congress.
And so I, think among activists and those folks, I don't think it's going to hurt him if Democrats don't take control. Now, the one issue I think may get thrown at him is this concept of vision, leadership, where he wants to take the party. Was he able to do this in the House? Can he be able to translate that as president? That may be the more appropriate question. CHUNG: Chuck Todd, a lot of these races are going to be right down to the wire. Are we going to see some of them decided weeks from now, instead of tonight or tomorrow night?
TODD: I tell you, that's the assumption. All the news media, the networks, on down to print, we're all preparing for this assumption that everything is going to go later. We have the Louisiana runoff possibilities, not just in the Senate, but what if it decided the House?
Yes, you've got to think, though, that a lot of us are hoping the election actually ends within a 48-hour window. I don't think anybody wants to go through what the country went through for 36 days last November and December of 2000.
I think, Minnesota, if you're looking for ground zero of a possible place where we could have all sorts of legal challenges, it's in Minnesota. If somehow Mondale comes a few thousand votes short, Democrats are going to scream bloody murder over the absentee ballots and the fact that people that voted for Paul Wellstone, that their votes weren't going to get counted for Walter Mondale. So Minnesota is sort of the one legal wrangling that we're keeping an eye on.
CHUNG: All right, Chuck Todd, Michael Weisskopf, and Amy Walter, thank you for being with us. We'll be watching tomorrow night.
Keep it right here on CNN tomorrow for continuous coverage of all these elections and more, starting with "AMERICAN MORNING" and heading into the home stretch at 3:00 p.m. Eastern time on Tuesday.
And still ahead: As the list of suspected sniper victims continues to grow, we'll get some inside details on the super maximum security prison where John Muhammad and John Lee Malvo are being held in seven-by-nine-foot cells -- right after this.
ANNOUNCER: Next: a very different stage and a very different audience for an Oscar-nominated actress. A jury may decide her next role.
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Winona Ryder's shoplifting trial is nearing its finale, closing arguments. And then the jury will render its verdict. Ryder faces up to three years in prison on charges including grand theft and burglary for allegedly taking $5,500 worth of clothing and other items from Saks Fifth Avenue.
Joining me now once more with some of the legal -- and let's face it, it's entertaining -- aspects of the trial, our legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, who's had a change in venue and is in South Florida; covering the trial in Los Angeles, Pat LaLama from "Celebrity Justice."
Thank you both for being with us. Pat, we've been reading that there was a setback today because one of the defense witnesses that Winona's lawyer was depending on was a disaster and therefore didn't testify. Is that true?
PAT LALAMA, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, what happened was that, at the last minute, Mark Geragos, the attorney for Winona Ryder, wanted to bring to the stand a woman who was apparently the former roommate of one of the Saks Fifth Avenue witnesses. And she was supposed to testify with some damning information about Colleen Rainey.
But the judge didn't allow it. He said: "Too late. Too bad. Go away." So that didn't happen. And they immediately went into closing argument for the prosecution.
CHUNG: OK. So, there was another thing that the judge didn't allow. And that was an alleged admission of guilt. What happened there?
LALAMA: It's very interesting and it's very, very underreported. We are not sure why.
But on the night of December 12, while she was being detained, Winona Ryder -- and it's in court transcripts -- we know this to be a fact -- Winona Ryder signed a confession statement, saying literally, "I, Winona Ryder, admit to stealing these various items." Now, the judge did not allow it. It was not allowed to be introduced. We're not sure why.
There might have been some issue about her Miranda rights having not been read. We're not really certain at this point. But we do know he didn't allow it. However, if Mark Geragos had brought Winona Ryder to the stand, that would have opened the door. And that would have meant that the prosecution could have come back with that confession and used it to impeach her. And that might be why Winona Ryder was not called to the stand.
CHUNG: Jeffrey, what I don't understand is, why didn't she plea- bargain? Why didn't she accept one that they had given her?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, one explanation is that the prosecution thought they had such a good case and thought their evidence was so strong, they didn't offer her a misdemeanor plea.
CHUNG: But I thought they did offer her one.
TOOBIN: Well, I think there's some mystery about that in the ever-deepening mysteries about the Winona Ryder case. The nature of what, if any plea bargain was offered, I think is somewhat unclear, at least it is to.
But surely, most shoplifting cases do not go to trial. And it seems odd that this one did. But everything about this case is odd.
(LAUGHTER) CHUNG: Pat, you have to tell us the story about Michael Shoar, this man who testified on Friday. But don't make it really long. Just give us the highlights.
LALAMA: Are you trying to tell me I talk too much, Connie?
CHUNG: No, Pat.
LALAMA: All right, I'll give you the highlights.
A former employee of Saks testified that he had had lunch with a Saks security guard who was the key witness in the prosecution. That would be Ken Evans. And he claimed that, after Winona was arrested, he had lunch with Ken and that Ken said: "We are going to nail that Beverly Hills 'expletive.'" And we're going to get her one way or another. And she's going down."
But it turned out that this guy is a disgruntled former employee of Saks. He has a lawsuit against Saks. There is a trespass rule on him. He's not allowed to step foot on the property. And so that took a little bit of the thunder out of the defense's case.
CHUNG: And then there was one other thing.
TOOBIN: I...
CHUNG: Oh, go ahead.
TOOBIN: I just have a question. It's still somewhat mysterious to me sort of what the defense is in this case.
CHUNG: I was going to ask you that.
TOOBIN: Is the defense that she did pay for the goods? Is the defense that she thought she had paid for the goods, that she thought someone else was going to pay for the goods, that they planted these goods on her? What is the defense here, Pat? I don't quite get it.
LALAMA: Well, I think, Jeffrey, it's sort of like a pizza. You throw it up and you see if it sticks.
I think it's all over the place. I think, at first, it sounded like he was going to paint this as a case where the prosecution just wanted to get a celebrity. And then it was another thing where she was forced to sign this confession under duress and she intended all along to pay for these things. I think it depends on the day what the defense is hoping to prove.
But I have to tell you something about the closing argument on the part of the prosecution. It was humorous. I have to say it was very serious, but humorous that Ann Rundle gave the jury the top 10 things the law doesn't say.
Do I have time to give you a couple of them?
CHUNG: Sure. Go ahead. LALAMA: OK, I'll give you three. No. 1: "Only poor people steal. The law does not say that only poor people steal. The law does not say that a crime is OK if your director tells you to do it." And one of my favorites also, "The law does not say that, if you sell $200 hair bows, you deserve to be ripped off."
She simplified it all in the end by saying: "Winona came. She stole. She went."
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Oh, dear. Poor Winona.
Pat LaLama, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you.
Still ahead: the man who's battling his in-laws over whether to take his wife off life-support.
We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER: Next: Sniper suspect John Lee Malvo goes to court. Will he too face federal charges for the nationwide murder spree?
CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Did the Washington area snipers first strike there earlier than anyone knew? CNN has learned that the Sony laptop police found when they caught John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo is the same model as one stolen from a shooting victim on September 5, a month before the sniper spree began.
Meantime, Malvo had a closed-door detention hearing in federal court today. And Muhammad has his tomorrow in open court.
Joining us now with details on the supermax prison where the two are being held, we have "Washington Times" reporter Matt Cella.
Matt, thank you for being with us.
MATT CELLA, REPORTER, "WASHINGTON TIMES": Thank you.
CHUNG: What can you tell us about that September 5 shooting, because it seems as if various parts of this puzzle are now fitting?
CELLA: Well, it does.
But the September 5 shooting, the most interesting thing is that the M.O. of it doesn't match any of the sniper shootings at all. Police were telling us that it was an ambush shooting, that a man who was locking his restaurant was walking across the parking lot. And there was no announcement made of a robbery. The suspects came upon him and shot him six times, stole $3,000 from him and the laptop computer that you mentioned. He didn't get a look at whoever fired the weapon, other than to say that it was a black male. But there was no vehicle seen in that case.
CHUNG: Did he notice any others with that one black male?
CELLA: No.
CHUNG: He didn't. And, once again, the type of gun that was used?
CELLA: I'm sorry?
It was a .22 caliber. He's saying that it was a .22 caliber. Police at this point are just saying it was a small-caliber handgun.
CHUNG: I see. And he was shot six times, which is incredible. But he survived.
CELLA: He survived. He survived. He does have some lingering damage, some nerve damage to his hand. But he survived the shooting.
CHUNG: All right.
Can you tell us if Malvo and Muhammad are being held in the same prison and whether they're able to see each other?
CELLA: Yes, they are being held in the same prison.
It's a super maximum security prison in downtown Baltimore known as the Supermax. But they are not being allowed to see each other. There's no contact between them, correctional officials have told us. The prison is the place where they take the prison population that can't get along in a regular penitentiary. It's the highest of the high-security prisons.
CHUNG: And do they have any time outside of their cells, do you know?
CELLA: It's very unlikely. The people that we spoke with wouldn't tell us exactly what kind of security restrictions that they've got.
But they gave us what the average day is like for a federal pretrial detainee who's being held at this prison. That day does include about six hours out in a common area. But these officials were also careful to tell us that there are different arrangements set up for these two suspects. And those arrangements likely include being kept in their cells and being denied visitors, except for, of course, lawyers.
CHUNG: Are they allowed phone privileges to family members?
CELLA: No. Those are among the other privileges that can be restricted if additional security is needed, along with the ability to watch TV. Most of the federal pretrial detainees can go into areas where they can watch television. It's highly likely that these two suspects are not in that group.
CHUNG: Do you have any idea -- are they being held in this restricted area, because of -- they fear their own safety, in other words, the authorities are protecting them in some way because the crimes they're accused of are so very heinous?
CELLA: I think it's a combination of both. I think they want to make sure that this goes -- that, for the time at that they're in this institution, everything goes very smoothly.
Now, they wouldn't tell us where they're being held. They wouldn't tell us if they're with the state prisoners who come to the facility because they can't behave or whether they are with the federal pretrial detainees. But the one thing that they did say is that there's no prisoner that can come to this institution that can match the security that they've got in place.
So I think that the lights are always on. They can always check on the prisoners to make sure that there's -- that they're not up to anything, for their own safety as well as for the safety of the guards and the prison population, and thwarting any attempt at escape.
CHUNG: All right, Matt Cella, thank you for being with us. We appreciate it.
And still ahead: They gave him one week to decide: Believe in God or get kicked out of the Boy Scouts. What will he do? We'll ask him.
ANNOUNCER: Next: a husband's life-or-death decision, his wife 12 years on life support and little hope for recovery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, HUSBAND OF TERRI SCHIAVO: She wouldn't want to survive like this. And that's she doing is just, she's surviving. There's nothing there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: His emotional tug-of-war -- when CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Tonight: a heartbreaking story, one that has brought tears and agony to one family for more than a decade. It has split a family, pitting a husband against his wife's parents. The quandary is unimaginable. Should a woman attached to life support live or die? You'll meet her husband in just a moment.
But first, CNN's Mark Potter has Terri's story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For more than a decade, 38-year-old Terri Schiavo has been in a coma-like state after suffering cardiac failure and massive brain damage.
MARY SCHINDLER, MOTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Hi, baby. It's mommy. Hi. What's the matter?
POTTER: Terri breathes on her own, but must be nourished through a feeding tube. At issue is whether to remove the tube and end her life. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, is also her legal guardian and says, after years of failed treatment, it is time for her to die with dignity.
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, HUSBAND OF TERRI SCHIAVO: She wouldn't want to live like this. She wouldn't want to survive like this. And that's she doing is just, she's surviving. There's nothing there.
POTTER: Schiavo claims his wife told him and others she would never want to live on life support. But her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, argue she would have never said that. They are fighting vigorously to prevent their daughter from being killed.
BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: It's inhumane. How in the world can you starve someone to death that is cognizant? She's a person. I mean, it would be like starving you to death.
POTTER: Last year, Terri's husband won a court ruling to have her feeding tube removed. Her parents appealed. And three days later, the tube was put back in. Recently, the case was recently reheard. Two doctors selected by the husband and one by the court testified Terri is in a persistent vegetative state and beyond help.
DR. PETER BAMBAKIDIS, NEUROLOGIST: Unfortunately, I know of no single treatment or combination of treatments that could result in any meaningful improvement in her current situation.
POTTER: The parents, however, insist Terri is aware of her surroundings and have produced a videotape attempting to prove her responsiveness.
B. SCHINDLER: You remember that? You used to laugh at that? You used to get mommy all upset when you did that to her.
POTTER: Two doctors selected by the family testified Terri is not brain-dead and can be treated.
DR. WILLIAM MAXFIELD, RADIOLOGIST: There was a pianist that played some of her favorite songs. And she did react to these, and, in my opinion, almost as if she was trying to sing.
POTTER: But doctors and the attorney representing the husband say those responses are purely involuntary.
GEORGE FELOS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL SCHIAVO: Vegetative patients can respond to the environment. So can plants. If you put a plant by that window, it will grow towards the light. It doesn't mean it's not a vegetable.
POTTER: In closing arguments, the parent's attorney said Terri still wants to survive.
PATRICIA ANDERSON, ATTORNEY FOR SCHINDLERS: She has shown us her spirit. She's trying to answer that question that, "Yes, I'm in here."
Now, Judge, would she try this hard if she wanted to die?
POTTER (on camera): The fight between the parents and the husband has grown increasingly bitter, with each side accusing the other of being more concerned about money from malpractice suits than Terri's actual welfare. Judge George Greer says he will rule on Terri's fate November 22.
Mark Potter, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHUNG: So what would you do if you were in this situation?
Joining me now from Tampa are Michael Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos.
Michael, why are you fighting so hard to have your wife's feeding tube removed?
SCHIAVO: Because this is what Terri wanted.
CHUNG: How do you know she would want that?
SCHIAVO: She made those comments to me. She made comments to my brother. She made comments to my sister-in-law.
CHUNG: In what context?
SCHIAVO: With my brother, it was regarding my grandmother's death. She was put on a ventilator against her wishes. And Terri made the comment to my brother that she would never want that.
CHUNG: Why, then, Michael didn't she sign a living will?
SCHIAVO: I can't answer that. We were 25 years old at that time.
FELOS: Connie, I think, statistically, only about 15 percent of adult Americans have living wills. And, obviously, the vast majority of those are older Americans. I think it would be very rare for a young person like Terri, 25, to reflect her wishes in writing.
CHUNG: Michael, did you or your wife have wills?
SCHIAVO: No. We did not.
CHUNG: I see. So, you thought it would be most unusual for her to sign a living will at her age, certainly.
SCHIAVO: To me, you make comments. And it has been shown in statistics like my attorney said that people don't -- the vast majority of people don't have living wills. They make comments through special things that happen or people that die or they see something on TV.
FELOS: Connie, at 25 years old, most 25-year-olds don't think about death.
CHUNG: No, I hear you, Michael. I understand. I understand. You really did answer that question for me. I appreciate it.
Michael Schiavo, do you have any doubts? Do you think about it sometimes and say to yourself, "Maybe I'm not doing the right thing?"
SCHIAVO: No, I don't have any doubts.
CHUNG: Why are....
SCHIAVO: You know, Connie, I worked very hard with Terri to bring her back. Legions of doctors have seen Terri. And when doctor after doctor after doctor tells you that there's no hope, your wife will be in this state for the rest of her life...
CHUNG: Well, Michael, her parents point to a couple of reasons why you would feel this way. And one is that you have a girlfriend and you have a baby girl with her. Obviously, you appear to want to move on with your life. And the other reason is that you would come into some money.
SCHIAVO: Well, Connie, the money really doesn't have any factor here, because I have offered to donate that money three or four times publicly to a charity. The Schindlers refused that offer.
CHUNG: Why don't you just leave your wife on life support, allow that money to pay for her hospital costs, and go on your way?
SCHIAVO: Well, No. 1, I'm not going to run away. The question can be posed, would you run away?
CHUNG: No, I'm sorry. I said "go on your way."
SCHIAVO: Go on my way? Because I'm telling you, I'm not going to leave Terri in this situation. I'm not going to run away from it. No. 2, back in the 2000 trial, Mr. Schindler was on the stand and testified.
CHUNG: That's your father-in-law.
SCHIAVO: Yes. He was put into a hypothetical situation. And he was asked, if he had guardianship of Terri and Terri became ill and received gangrene in one of arms, would he have it removed? And he said yes. Then he moved on to getting gangrene in her leg. And he said he would have that removed. By the time we were done, Terri had no limbs and she was on a ventilator.
I wouldn't want to leave Terri with a person that would do something like that to somebody else, just because it's what he wants. CHUNG: But, Michael...
SCHIAVO: And he has already testified that it doesn't matter what Terri wanted. It's what he wants.
CHUNG: Michael, but you will admit that, now you have a girlfriend and that you have a child by that woman, that you apparently do want to start a different life and a new life away from this wife that you have.
SCHIAVO: Well, I got on with a portion of my life. But I still will stick by my wife and make sure that her wishes are carried out.
FELOS: Connie, I want to add that there are many, many situations where there are very long-term marriages, especially elderly spouse, and one has Alzheimer's. And they don't recognize their spouse. They have to be institutionalized.
Should those people just die alone or should they be able to form new relationships and have some companionship? I mean, I think that happens many times. But they don't abandon their spouse. They make sure that they have proper care and that the spouse's wishes are carried out. And that's what Michael is trying to do, is carry out Terri's wishes in this case.
CHUNG: Michael Schiavo, what about the responses that her parents think that she's giving to them?
SCHIAVO: Terri has made those same responses for 13 years, Connie. She makes them to me. She makes them to the people in the nursing home. There's notes by the nurses there that Terri makes those noises when nobody is in the room.
That's part of being in a persistent vegetative state. Persistent-vegetative-state patients will sometimes laugh. They groan. They moan. They will have tears. They have sleep-wake cycles. But the higher level of consciousness is gone.
CHUNG: But aren't there other examples of people who have come out of a vegetative state? Granted, a miracle and highly unlikely and not considered to be likely, according to the doctors who have examined your wife, but it has happened.
SCHIAVO: There has been some instances, but they have been -- probably the longest, I believe I was told, was...
FELOS: Fifteen months.
SCHIAVO: Fifteen months.
CHUNG: All right, Michael Schiavo and George Felos, thank you both for being with us.
And still ahead: the Boy Scout who was given one week to believe in God or he would be expelled. What will he do?
We'll ask him.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: Nineteen-year-old Boy Scout Darrell Lambert has been told that, if he's an atheist, if he doesn't believe in God, he can't be a Boy Scout anymore -- that's right -- even though Lambert has earned 37 merit badges, done more than 1,000 hours of community service and is an Eagle Scout, the highest rank. The Boy Scouts have given him a week to say that he believes in God or some supernatural entity or get kicked out.
The Boy Scouts declined to appear on camera, but released a statement saying in part -- quote -- "In the Boy Scout oath, a Scout recognizes his duty to God. And the Scout law requires a Scout to be reverent. All that is required is the acknowledgement of belief in God, as stated in the oath, and the ability to be reverent, as stated in the Scout law."
Joining us now from Seattle is Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert, along with his mother, Trish Lambert.
Thank you for being with us.
Darrell, I understand you just got word. What did you learn?
DARRELL LAMBERT, EAGLE SCOUT: Well, on the way over here, I called -- I called Brad Farmer, our council executive. And he told me that, since my beliefs have stayed the same for the past two weeks -- or week and a half -- that I am no longer welcome in scouting and that my registration will be sent back to me and I'll get my letter in a couple days.
CHUNG: Oh, my gosh. Well, how do you feel about that?
D. LAMBERT: I think it's a disgrace. It's the wrong thing to do. And I'm preparing to fight it. I'll go to the appeals and the regional office, and national, if I have to go there.
CHUNG: So you can no longer be a part of the Boy Scouts. But you do serve also as a volunteer, correct?
D. LAMBERT: Right.
CHUNG: What about that aspect of your Boy Scout duty?
D. LAMBERT: I don't know if I have to disassociate myself with the troop. My troop has expressed that they want me to stay. So I'll try to do that. But I asked them, the Chief Seattle Council, back on Wednesday if I had to drop out if they sent back my registration. And they haven't got back to me. They didn't say if I could just be an unregistered leader.
CHUNG: All right.
Let's go back in time, then. When you became an Eagle Scout in April of 2001, what did you tell them about your beliefs? D. LAMBERT: At my Eagle board, at the end of it, I told them that I didn't believe in God. And they still passed me. They even commended me on my honesty and courage to say something. I elected to say it out of my own free will.
CHUNG: So, was it your belief at that time that, even though you didn't believe in God and you knew what the rules were at the Boy Scouts, that this was fine?
D. LAMBERT: Yes. I didn't think they'd actually kick someone out for them. So I just -- I didn't think that they would do something like that.
CHUNG: Why didn't you, Darrell, because you know the rules? You're an Eagle Scout. And if you know all the rules to abide by and all the merits, then you should know that that's a requirement.
D. LAMBERT: Well, the main thing that they're saying is that I don't abide by the Scout oath, "duty to God." Well, if you read more into the Scout oath, it say that you are supposed to be physically strong, which includes mental and physical fitness. We're not kicking people out for not exercising regularly, are we?
(LAUGHTER)
CHUNG: Well, that's a good point.
D. LAMBERT: It says it right there in the Scout oath.
CHUNG: I see.
D. LAMBERT: The Chief Seattle Council is telling me that I'm picking and choosing what laws or rules I'm abiding by, but so are they. So they're not exactly being fair.
CHUNG: What do you believe in? Do you believe in any higher being?
D. LAMBERT: No, I don't. I don't believe that there's any ruling or guiding force in the universe. I believe in science. And I just don't believe in a God.
CHUNG: When did this belief start? Did you used to go to church when you were a kid?
D. LAMBERT: I never really went to a church. Before ninth grade or before I was about 14, I was agnostic. I wasn't really sure what I believed in. I researched a lot into it, learning more about religion and the science aspect of things, not saying they have to compete with each other.
And I went to church youth group and different things like that, Bible study classes. And I just came to the point where evolution all seemed to make sense. And I generally believe in the physical parameters. If I can't see it or that kind of stuff, I don't necessarily believe in it too well. CHUNG: Trish, do you believe in God?
TRISH LAMBERT, MOTHER OF DARRELL: Yes, I would say I do -- or a higher deity.
CHUNG: Do you go to church?
T. LAMBERT: I don't go to church.
CHUNG: Oh, you don't?
T. LAMBERT: No, I don't. No.
CHUNG: What about Darrell's father and your daughter as well? Do they believe in God?
T. LAMBERT: My husband, no. He doesn't either. And one of my daughters doesn't either. The other one is probably agnostic, I would say.
CHUNG: Where do you think your son developed this line of thinking?
T. LAMBERT: From school, doing science and biology in school. He's always been interested in sciences and that sort of thing. And, to him, it was evolution.
CHUNG: And what do you think of his determination here to fight it?
T. LAMBERT: You know what? I think it's really good. And Darrell is not just fighting this for himself. He's fighting this for all the Scouts that have no real belief in God.
CHUNG: Darrell, are you going to appeal?
D. LAMBERT: Yes. I'll appeal it to regional and then national, if I have to.
CHUNG: And if it's taken to national, is that just about the full extent of the path you can go?
D. LAMBERT: Within the organization, that's about as far as you can go.
CHUNG: And would you be willing to go out and file some kind of lawsuit, if you could?
D. LAMBERT: I haven't gotten enough information on that to really answer the question. But I have been talking to different attorneys that have fought this issue before, just getting advice from them.
CHUNG: All right. Are you demoralized in any way?
D. LAMBERT: No, not at all. CHUNG: And you sound kind of determined.
D. LAMBERT: Yes, very much so.
CHUNG: All right, Darrell Lambert and Trish Lambert, thank you so much for being with us.
And still ahead: It's the eve of an extraordinary day that will affect the future of America's economy, the course of American military action, and the life of every single American. And we've got big plans for the day.
Stay with us for a quick preview.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUNG: We end tonight where we began.
Tomorrow is Election Day. Just a handful of elections could shift control of the Senate or the House and dramatically affect America's future. With so many issues at stake, the economy, Iraq, President Bush's picks for federal judgeships, CNN will have continuous coverage all day, kicking off with a special edition of "THE CAPITAL GANG" at 3:00 p.m. Eastern.
We'll also have special election editions of "INSIDE POLITICS" and "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." As the polls starts to close, CNN's "America Votes 2002" coverage begins at 6:00 p.m. Eastern time. How long it goes, well, that is up to you, America's voters, and the people who count the ballots. And that's what makes it so exciting.
Coming up next on "LARRY KING LIVE": Dan Rather. Did I say that?
Thank you for joining us. And for all of us at CNN, good night.
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With Atheist Eagle Scout>
