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CNN Crossfire
What's Wrong at the FBI?
Aired May 16, 2001 - 19:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: On the day Timothy McVeigh was to be executed, FBI Director Louis Freeh faces lawmakers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOUIS FREEH, FBI DIRECTOR: As director, I'm accountable and responsible for that failure, and I accept that responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PRESS: Tonight, were Freeh and the FBI too 'lax in their investigation of the Oklahoma City bombing?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The most visible case in the history of FBI, and they screw it up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Robert Novak. In the CROSSFIRE: Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters of California, member of the Judiciary Committee, and Republican Congressman Porter Goss from Florida, chairman of the Intelligence Committee.
PRESS: Welcome to CROSSFIRE: A bad day for the FBI. Timothy McVeigh, the FBI's big catch, was not executed. Robert Hanssen, the FBI's big spy, was indicted. And Louis Freeh, the FBI's big boss, was on the witness stand, hammered by members of Congress, both Democrat and Republican.
To lawmakers, Freeh brought more bad news: Admitting that even more documents never turned over to the McVeigh prosecution or defense have been found. And he took responsibility for the screw-up. But that may not be enough to satisfy FBI critics. Members of both parties have called for an investigation of the FBI. And some have even suggested an appointment of a special inspector general just to oversee the FBI. Something long opposed by bureau insiders.
So, where is it all heading? That's our debate tonight. Can the FBI still be trusted? If not, how to fix it? And sitting in again on the right tonight, Bay Buchanan. Bay, get to you shortly. Let me first turn to Congressman Porter Goss -- congressman welcome back. REP. PORTER GOSS (R), FLORIDA: Good to be here, Bill.
PRESS: This was the biggest case of the FBI in our lifetime, any how. Timothy McVeigh their biggest catch, and yet they blew it. And Louis Freeh and others say, "Oh, it was just a mistake that these documents just got lost somehow in the system." I mean, do you buy that it was just a mistake on the biggest case -- a big case like this? Or was this a case of serious mismanagement?
GOSS: Well, if you're implying there was anything sinister, that's completely different. I don't think there was any anything sinister in it. Was there incompetence somewhere in the management of this whole area, perhaps. We're going to find that out because several people are going to take a look at this and several committees. The good news, I think for Americans, is that oversight works. We're seeing it work well. There will be several different ways we go about taking a look at went wrong here. But, I think that everybody who recites the history of the FBI in the past few years under the Clinton administration comes up and says, "Look, we're not happy. We had Ruby Ridge. We had Waco. We had the lab scandal. We had McVeigh, He had Wen Ho Lee." It's long list. And Hanssen -- of great interest to me in the intelligence world. So, sure there are problems, but are we ready to throw the baby out with the bath water? Surely not.
The FBI is a very necessary institution. It does a good job, day in and day out, like any big bureaucracy which has gotten too big. Its got some problems. And we saw them, unfortunately, we saw the warts in this case. And it's too bad it's on such a high-profile case.
PRESS: I want to talk to you about some of those other bungles in just -- just a second. Let's stick with McVeigh if we can for a while. Because the other story we keep hearing over and over about these McVeigh documents is just -- and Louis Freeh said it again today, "Nothing in those documents is going to change anything. Nothing is going to change the outcomes. It's not going to make any difference."
Senator Specter, today, hardly a flaming liberal took issue with that. I'd like you to listen to what he had to say, please -- Senator Specter:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: When the argument is raised that none of these documents would change the outcome, bear in mind, we're talking about more than the determination of guilt. We're talking about sentence. We're talking about the death penalty. And when that is imposed, who can say what subtleties there may be in these documents which would have affected the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PRESS: I mean, this is serious enough that this could get McVeigh off, couldn't it? GOSS: I have no way of knowing, and I would suggest that we have to let the people responsible for this prejudge this before we go out and make pronouncements on it. I think that it is very clear that Louis Freeh is a very honorable, hardworking family man who's done a very credible job as director of the FBI. The fact that he has come forward and said, "Look, this a free Democratic country. We have found that we didn't do the job as we well should have." Should give confidence to Americans that we care about the values, the base things.
Now, will this change the outcome? I don't know. That's up to the judicial system to work. We're legislatures. We don't do that.
BAY BUCHANAN, CO-HOST: Congressman Waters, let's take a look at this Oklahoma bombing case from a bigger -- bigger perspective here. No question, and we all agree a mistake been made. But, we had the worst terrorist act this country has ever had -- 168 people were killed. Within two days, the FBI had the perpetrator, that man behind bars, they had the under -- they had it under watch his partner in this crime. And then they got all the evidence. They did an investigation. And they got this guy -- a jury convicted him, and they threw the key away on both of them.
They did a terrific job all along with this very slight mistake. Would you not agree, indeed a mistake -- one you don't want to have -- but overall, the FBI agents that investigated this thing have done a marvelous job of solving this case so quickly.
REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: No, I don't agree. Let me just tell you. He left a long trail. And the average investigator -- McVeigh -- could have caught him because of all of the -- the big trail that he left behind him. What I'm saying and what everybody is saying is this: We have a situation where we have more documents and more documents being uncovered. In a Democratic society and in a criminal justice system, where all of this information should have been turned over to the defense, they didn't do it. They bungled it. It's a thousand nicks with the FBI. Not only did they bungle McVeigh, when you look at Robert Hanssen, who had been under their nose, stealing important secrets for 15 years.
When you look at Ruby Ridge. And I want to tell you, even though the people at Ruby Ridge are people I wouldn't agree with, they killed an innocent woman and her baby. When you look at Wen Ho Lee, and they came up with 50 counts, and he ended pleaded guilty to one felony count of kind of process mismanagement.
BUCHANAN: But congressman...
WATERS: Yes, something is wrong with the FBI.
BUCHANAN: There is no question...
WATERS: Yes.
BUCHANAN: ... that I agree with you on some of those points. But, let's just go back for a minute and then we'll come up there -- come back to those. We -- let's go back to this McVeigh case. You're talking about a billion pieces of paper. A billion. And they misplaced or weren't able to -- did not submit 3,000 of them, OK. Now, don't you agree that it is likely that when you have a billion pieces of paper and 46 offices across this country, that an innocent mistake such as this could have been easily made and that really you should not, at any time, suggest that all that hard work for all of those agents out there who put the man away in two days behind bars -- two days -- if he's out there two more weeks, we could have had another crisis.
WATERS: I refuse to excuse what you're talking about: an innocent mistake. There are people out there who believe there are other people involved. Is there something in those papers that will help us to identify others who may not ever be identified, but for these papers? We don't know what's in them. It's not a matter of, "Oh, it's a just little mistake."
Lives are on the line here. And you know what the really horrible thing about all of this is: those families. Those people who are the relatives of those victims have to go through the trauma of this delay. They want to get on with their lives. And this just holds them up. It's -- it's bungling on the part of the FBI. And, it's easy for Louis Freeh to say, "Well, I take responsibility." Yeah, he's leaving. He's out of here. So what responsibility is he taking? We expect more from the FBI. We pay them a lot of money. We put a lot of resources into them. We want them to do their job and do it well.
PRESS: Do you have a quick response...
WATERS: And that goes for the CIA, too.
PRESS: ... to that congressman?
GOSS: Sure, I agree there's something wrong with the FBI. I think that they have been underfunded for a number of years. And there are shortcomings in their capabilities. And it is well known -- we have hearing after hearing after hearing on the Hill when they come up, and they say these are the things we need. And if you cannot invest in these things, we will not be able to provide the services for the national security and law enforcement we need to do for the country.
The second point I would make, is that it's easy to get hysterical. It's easy to get involved with a passion with this. There's no doubt about that. I recall we had a celebrated case that was pretty much based on hoax called the L.A. crack scene, when people made allegations that were unsubstantiated. We spent millions and millions of taxpayers dollars investigating it and found out it was basically a hoax.
WATERS: That's not true.
GOSS: Well, I think it is true.
(Crosstalk) WATERS: You -- you were part of the organization that was a part of the problem with the CIA who's bungled the war on drugs. And they bungled what they were suppose to be doing in that whole effort where they were trying to support the Contras, and they allowed, again, I don't care what you say, they allowed or turned their heads or pretended they didn't know that drugs were coming into this country.
GOSS: It's not what I say, it's what all these investigators say.
WATERS: No, they didn't say that.
GOSS: They said there was no substance to what you are saying.
WATERS: No, they didn't. No, the investigation did not say that.
PRESS: I'm going to jump and come back to tonight's topic with a question -- yeah, I'm going to come back Louis Freeh, whom you just praised, among other things, as a family man. I know he's a family man and good for him. But I don't think that -- that's important here at all. We're talking about what kind of a job he's been doing at the FBI. Now you have mentioned, and Congresswoman Waters has mentioned, some of the litany of the foul ups.
Just to remind everybody again, we started out by talking about Waco -- he wasn't there when that happened. But he certainly oversaw -- was there during the period when those tapes were lost and that evidence was lost and then suddenly found again.
He went on to Richard Jewell and the Olympic bombing down there, when this man wrongly charged by the FBI as a suspect, on to the Wen Ho Lee case, again, held out, you know, nothing ever happened to him. Robert Hanssen, who you mentioned, you're concerned about, so am I. And now the McVeigh thing. I mean all under Louis Freeh's watch. Family man or not, shouldn't he have been fired a long time ago?
GOSS: By whom?
PRESS: By Bill Clinton, or Janet Reno.
GOSS: Well, why don't we turn it around. Maybe we should have fired Bill Clinton and Janet Reno.
PRESS: We tried.
GOSS: Bill Clinton was the one who wouldn't listen. It was Louis Freeh who brought the problems to our attention quite often and it was the administration that would not provide the support.
WATERS: No, that's not true.
GOSS: If there's a simple thing that you can say about this whole thing is there was an inattention to national security under the Clinton/Gore Administration. We saw not just in these cases we've talked about. We saw it in the State Department. We was it across the board where people just said, "Well, we don't really care about national security."
PRESS: Well, I know Bill Clinton's been blamed for a lot. I don't know how you can blame Bill Clinton for fingering Richard Jewell in Atlanta. An FBI screwup is an FBI screwup on Robert Hanssen. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) can blame that on Bill Clinton.
WATERS: I can't believe that my colleague would be sitting here defending incompetence and bungling. I mean, you know, I've heard you on many occasions talk about being the overseer of the taxpayer's dollars and wanting to get the best job out of our agencies. And even if it's an agency that's kind of related to not only your oversight responsibility, but kind of your background, coming from the CIA, where you come from, you got to call it like it is.
GOSS: Actually, I come from Connecticut, and I live in Florida, but the fact of the matter is, I do call it as it is. That's why I have the responsibility I do. And I think the idea of getting off the truth for sensationalism, which the media likes to do, it's good for shows like this, is not helpful to advancing the real truth of what's going on in our country.
We need an FBI. They're not perfect. There is no bureaucracy in Washington that's close to perfect. I think that the FBI has been as well led as it can be led under the circumstances. Did it have the support of the White House to do its job? No, not to the degree necessary. Could things be improved? Yes. Did Louis Freeh come forward and say we have to make changes? Yes. Did he hire some people to make those changes? He hired absolutely a fabulous guy who is doing a management survey, we pulled him out of IBM to do the management systems, so that foul-ups like this last one wouldn't happen.
(CROSSTALK)
WATERS: Another study, another survey, either he can do his job or he can't. Let me tell you something. Any time you've got a spy sitting right under your nose for 15 years.
GOSS: No, wait, he wasn't there 15 years, so let's not be too hyperbolic about this.
WATERS: He was in the FBI. This guy did this for 15 years.
GOSS: Yes, and the spy was a sleeper, as you know, for the first several years when Louis Freeh was director, and then only react
(CROSSTALK)
WATERS: I don't want you to get too emotional about the defense of incompetence. It's incompetence at the highest level. That's what it is.
PRESS: Let's take a break right on that point and pick up on Robert Hanssen when we come back after the break. Robert Hanssen has been indicted, but how do we know there aren't others like him still at the FBI? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Bay Buchanan sitting in on the right. Today, FBI director Louis Freeh testified before Congress about the mistakes made in the Timothy McVeigh case. And he took total responsibility. But doesn't some of that responsibility belong to Congress?
With us today are Congressman Porter Goss, chairman of the Intelligence Committee, and Congresswoman Maxine Waters, member of the Judiciary Committee. Congresswoman, back five years ago to '96, Louis Freeh went on the Justice Department, Janet Reno's Justice Department, and he said look, our computer system is in shambles. It is dysfunctional, and if we do not do something about this, he has put this in writing. He said it could affect some of the big cases including the Oklahoma bombing case.
Does not the fact that he never got the funding he needed to update that computer system until just six months ago have an impact, and aren't the Democrats responsible for not giving him the tools he needed to do his job?
WATERS: No, absolutely not. As a matter of fact, Republicans were in the majority in both houses. If you had put it in the budget, then you could blame us if it had been vetoed by the president. The president didn't veto any request that Republicans made in order to upgrade the computer system. And you know what? No matter what the computer systems are, when you have agent out there shooting an innocent woman and a child in Ruby Ridge, it has nothing to do with computers.
It has to do with judgment. It has to do with leadership.
BUCHANAN: But you can't put all the one billion pieces of paper in a file, so you can pull them up quickly, but lets go back. You keep mentioning these problems that they have had, and they have had some. There's no question about it. Will you -- in politics, usually you get the bad (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you get credit for the good. Will you give them credit for the outstanding job they did in the Unabomber case as well as the CIA employee who was shot out there in McLean, and also the bombing of the two U.S. embassies in East Africa?
They have had some terrific successes which we never hear about being praised. Are you willing to praise them for the jobs they do well?
WATERS: The person who was accused of doing the bombing of the embassies in Africa is still on the loose out there.
BUCHANAN: He's not in this country. We're doing the best we can.
WATERS: It's doesn't matter where he is. If he is the one and he knows...
(CROSSTALK)
WATERS: If they are so good, tell them to go and get him. Tell them to go and get the man that they say is responsible for this.
BUCHANAN: Yes, but can you imagine the work it took to locate somebody and find out what they did when all of this happened in a foreign country? The amazing ability for them to locate this person? Are you not going to be willing to give them credit for what they do well?
BUCHANAN: I want to tell you in a sophisticated society where we're the number one leaders in the world, I expect the FBI, the CIA and everybody else we pay to protect and serve to be able to do their job. I'm not going to excuse them when they bungle. I'm not going to excuse incompetence. I'm going to call it like it is. Louis Freeh has not done the job.
PRESS: Congressman Porter Goss, by the way I did watch Louis Freeh's testimony today, and he's explicitly said that it was not a computer foul-up that led to these missing documents. It was the mismanagement of the papers themselves.
GOSS: That is true, but if they had had a better system that was computer based, that problem would not have happened.
PRESS: Well, he didn't say it was related to the computers today, but I want to come back to the Hanssen.
GOSS: That's because they don't have any computers. How bad is that?
PRESS: I think they have a lot of computers, Congressman.
GOSS: But not what they need in the systemic form.
PRESS: I want to come back to the Hanssen case, because again you've been saying, you know, Louis Freeh basically couldn't do anything about it. The fact is, with Robert Hanssen, that two years ago he was warned by someone high up in the FBI that there was a mole within the FBI, high up. Louis Freeh did nothing about it.
After CIA spy Aldrich Ames was arrested, the FBI was advised to have polygraph tests for all of their top employees. Louis Freeh did nothing about it. By his inaction, isn't he responsible for the loss of -- who knows what national security loss to this country, because he did nothing, again.
GOSS: I don't know where you are getting your information, but it's not accurate information to say that Louis Freeh was not on top of the counterintelligence problem about the FBI.
PRESS: Isn't that apparent? What did he do?
GOSS: Did they catch the guy?
PRESS: After how many years.
GOSS: How long was Louis there working on it?
PRESS: And two years after he was warned.
GOSS: Let me tell you, that got done in a relatively quick period of time. There are a number of people, in fact, you may have read some of the press -- and I have to be a little careful because I don't want to invade policy here. There are a number of people that were even reported in the press who were thought to have been targets to have been that mole in the FBI.
We are a free, Democratic society. We don't allow Americans to spy on Americans. It is very hard to go in and try and uncover espionage. Now if you are breaking the law, then you can expect a visit from the FBI. I think in the time, under the circumstances, that they had to work, they did a very good job. It was not easy. Let me tell you, the oversight committees were well-informed of this and to say that Louis Freeh was not on top of this and doing it is not accurate.
PRESS: On oversight, just a very quick question, I heard Senator Specter again today say that this agency has become so big and so widespread that Congressional oversight alone cannot do. You have to -- he didn't say this, but Senator Durbin then said, "You have to have an inspector general at the FBI to look -- no other job but to look over the FBI." Do you agree?
GOSS: I don't agree. I think that the Justice Department IG can do the job. I know that others, there's a headline in one of the papers today that is a reverse headline. It says, "Senators Worry That FBI Is Unmanageable." For years that headline has read the other way around. FBI worries that Senate is unmanageable. And I think that you're seeing a little bit of that coming back at them.
PRESS: All right. IG?
WATERS: I absolutely think so. And I think even my colleague would agree that it is too big. It is not manageable.
PRESS: And that's going to be the last word. Thank you, Congressman, Congresswoman Waters. We did think you agree. Good to have you both back on CROSSFIRE. And Bay Buchanan tonight. We will straighten out the whole FBI mess when we come back with our closing comments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: Bill, last year alone, the FBI put away 21,000, most of them were violent criminals, locked them up, made the streets safer for your family and mine. Why can't we give them credit -- credit for what they do well?
PRESS: Well, I'll give them credit for doing some things well. But I have to tell you, I think Louis Freeh is the most incompetent FBI director that this country has ever seen. And you know why he wasn't canned? Because the Republicans made him a lap dog, because he would criticize Bill Clinton, criticize Janet Reno. Republicans loved him, they overlooked his mismanagement.
BUCHANAN: Bill, the reason you liberals don't like Louis Freeh is because he took on Bill Clinton. Let's be honest. He went right after Bill Clinton because Bill Clinton was breaking the law.
PRESS: No. I don't like him because he made too many mistakes and he got away with it. He did not do his job.
BUCHANAN: Then why didn't Bill Clinton fire him?
PRESS: Bill Clinton should have, we agree on that.
From the left I'm Bill Press. Good night from CROSSFIRE and I'll see you later in "THE SPIN ROOM."
BUCHANAN: And from the right, I'm Bay Buchanan. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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