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CNN Crossfire
Will Republican Senator Jim Jeffords Switch Parties?
Aired May 22, 2001 - 19:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Will this Republican give Democrats control of the Senate? Will Senate Democrats give Bush a vote on his tax cut? And why is a party at Dick Cheney's house causing such a fuss? Tonight, a look at the week in politics.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left: Bill Press. On the right: Robert Novak. In the CROSSFIRE: former Gore campaign Chairman Tony Coelho and Haley Barbour, former chairman of the Republican National Committee.
NOVAK: Good evening, welcome to CROSSFIRE. As President Bush pressed Congress to pass his bills before the Memorial Day recess, he encountered a big headache: Senator James Jeffords of Vermont, one of the Senate's most liberal Republicans, looks ready to leave the Republican party. Efforts to change his mind were made by Vice President Cheney on Capitol Hill this morning and President Bush at the White House this afternoon. Results? Unknown.
But the senator promises an announcement in the morning. Should Jeffords leave the GOP, control of the Senate immediately reverts to the Democrats for the first time since 1994. Such speculation cast a pall on the big Republican fund-raiser in Washington tonight. The heaviest-hitter contributors were guests at the vice president's official residence last night, leading Democrats to claim this was the Bush version of Bill Clinton's White House coffees and Lincoln bedroom sleep overs. Meanwhile, Senate Democrats are ruining President Bush's plan to pass his tax cut by Memorial Day by forcing votes on one losing amendment after another. It's enough to make a president wish he was back in Texas -- Bill press.
BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: That's funny, I wish he was back in Texas, too. Haley Barbour, good evening. I want to start talking about Senator Jeffords. As Bob reported earlier on CNN, the buzz started out in the men's room, in the senate cloakroom this morning that Senator Jeffords might change parties. He has since met with the president, the vice president.
Major Garrett reported tonight on CNN that a top Senate GOP staffer told him that the senator was going to switch. That a top Democratic aide to Senator Tom Daschle said that this will not come to naught, if you can sort of read the tea leaves there. And thirdly, that a K Street lobbyist told -- said -- told Major Garrett a moderate senator Republican told him the president asked Senator Jeffords not to switch and the senator said no. Sounds to me, Haley, like the horse is already out the barn and Trent Lott had better start to look for a new office.
HALEY BARBOUR, FORMER CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Well, it sounds like to me that we will know tomorrow.
(LAUGHTER)
NOVAK: That's going out on a limb.
BARBOUR: You know...
PRESS: What do you know.
BARBOUR: I got more sense than to try to speculate on what a senator is going to do. Of course, it's not unheard of. When I was chairman of Republican National Committee, two Democrats senators, Senator Campbell from Colorado and Senator Shelby from Alabama changed parties. So, it has happened. But it is very unusual, and I frankly will be surprised if Senator Jeffords changes parties, but I don't know.
PRESS: Well, here is what gets me is: so the man says he doesn't like the $1.6 trillion tax cut because there is not enough in there, he thinks, for education -- or it takes money that could go to education, but he does support the $1.3 trillion which ain't a long way away from $1.6, and yet the Republican party says in the White House were maybe going to take the dairy supports away from the state of Vermont which really hurts them. And then they honor the teacher of the year, who happens to come from Vermont, and just to retaliate, they do not invite Senator Jeffords who is chairman of the Senate Education Committee. If he's treated so shabbily by the White House for such a small infraction, why shouldn't he change parties?
BARBOUR: Well, Senator Jeffords has to got to figure you what he thinks is best for himself and his constituents. You know, it has been often remarked that Jim Jeffords is the most liberal Republican in the United States Senate, and I always remind people he is still the most conservative member of the Vermont congressional delegation.
(LAUGHTER)
Don't ever forget -- don't ever forget that Vermont has a congressman who runs...
PRESS: More conservative than Bernie Sanders?
BARBOUR: ... he has -- they have a congressman who runs as a socialist. I mean, he is a socialist. Of course, organizes with the Democrats. So, you know, I don't know what Senator Jeffords is going to do. I enjoyed working with him. He got re-elected while I was in the Senate. Actually, he just re-elected about six months ago. But he got re-elected when I was chairman, he got re-elected to the Senate. I got to know him -- we just have to see, Bill. I'm not going to sit up here and "gill the lilly" about what I don't know. We're going to sleep tight and find out tomorrow.
NOVAK: Tony Coelho, I understand that up on the Senate and out of view of the cameras, all the Democratic senators are going, like that. You know what that is? That's rubbing your hands in joy because they are going to take over the machinery and what they are going to really do, and tell me if I'm wrong, is they are going to try to have the worst gridlock possible: no nominations confirmed, no legislation out of there, no hearings. It's going make the six years that Bill Clinton had to deal with the Republican Senate look like child's play. Do you agree?
TONY COELHO, FORMER CHAIRMAN, GORE CAMPAIGN: You're getting set up for the next few shows, obviously.
(LAUGHTER)
No, I disagree. I disagree. You don't know Tommy Daschle, if you believe that. Tommy Daschle...
NOVAK: Look, I know him pretty well.
COELHO: I know him very well. Tommy Daschle, if this goes into effect, Tommy Daschle will want to leave the Senate, will want to work with the president to get things done. However, you will not get away with what has happened over the last five months, meaning that the White House and the House decide what's going to happen, and the Senate has to go along. That isn't going to happen any more. Basically, what has to happen is there has to be compromise, discussion and there is going to be bipartisan government. And Tommy Daschle will make sure the government works. There is no doubt in my mind about that.
(LAUGHTER)
BARBOUR: Senator Daschle, as a minority leader which he has been, has really done everything he could do to gum up the works. And if he were to become the majority leader and change as Tony said, it will be a change.
(crosstalk)
COELHO: But, Haley, the interesting thing I always get a kick out of you Republicans is that obviously Tommy doesn't cooperate because he doesn't do what you guys want him to do, so he doesn't cooperate. Now, I think Tommy takes it a different way: If the Republicans, and Senator Jeffords looks like he reflects that, if the Republicans really wanted bipartisan government and worked together and brought things together, you wouldn't be having conflict you have today.
NOVAK: He may be...
(crosstalk)
NOVAK: He may be adding some pay back time by Trent Lott if he's minority leader. But...
(crosstalk)
COELHO: But the question will be is whether or not he is minority leader. That's really going to be the issue.
BARBOUR: Fifteen Democrat senators vote for the tax bill and Daschle has had the bill on floor, day in and day out, and vote on amendments that lose, lose, lose, lose -- just to slow it down. That would be change for the better, I'm sorry, Mr. Novak.
(crosstalk)
COELHO: Let me a make a point about that because I think that is part of the problem. When the Republicans announce, I can't understand this strategy, I used to be a leader in the house, that you announce ahead that you are going to get a bill out by "x" date. What are you telling your opposition? Do everything you can to stop me, so we stop this grand design...
NOVAK: Oh come one, they you to do that all the time when...
COELHO: We never did that. We never did that when I was there..
NOVAK: Of course you did.
COELHO: And we wouldn't do that. You don't show your hand.
NOVAK: Mr. Coelho, I don't know if you've been watching the Senate last night and today, but the roll calls are the same. They don't have the votes. Jim Jeffords could become a socialist labor member if he wants. They still don't have the votes on this tax bill. Why put on amendments over and over and over again just to slow it down? In 1993 when Bill Clinton got his tax increase through, they -- it passed by one vote. The Republicans didn't try to put out amendment after amendment after amendment. It was over, it was over. Do you think -- do you honestly think that is a good strategy to put up same amendments over and over again?
COELHO: Well, I think it is a good strategy to let the American people know where the different members in the House -- different members of Senate in this case.
NOVAK: Same votes, the same amendments.
COELHO: But I think it's important to let people know and do the education parts of where they stand. I think the difficulty was here -- was that the Republicans mis-strategized by showing too -- they were too cocky. They were having this great week, they were going to have all these bigwigs in town, and we're going to give them a tax bill when they go home. And this is great news for the Republican party and hopefully for the country. They misplayed it, Bob. They misplayed it, and they're going to suffer the consequences.
NOVAK: I don't think they look very good.
PRESS: Mr. Chairman, how long do you say you don't know anything about Senator Jeffers. I want to ask you something you do know something about which is: raising money. You know, over the last eight years, Republicans spent $8 million investigating everything that Bill Clinton or Al Gore did to try to raise any money for the party. Now Republicans are in power, and lo and behold, Dick Cheney has a huge a reception -- fund-raising reception at his residence last night. And here's what White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer today said when the comments were made that this just looks more Clinton, more Gore all over again. Here's Ari Fleischer's response:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The difference is day and night. And I don't think there is any comparison that is fair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PRESS: The difference -- that's a -- you have to admit, that's a joke, Haley. There is no difference at all. These are contributors being treated to a reception in a government building -- a residence.
BARBOUR: Three-hundred and something people went to the reception at the vice president's house and tent, paid for by the Republican National Committee.
PRESS: Government property.
BARBOUR: This kind of -- this sort of having receptions at the White House, when you have hundreds of people, whether it's Clinton or Gerald Ford or Harry Truman -- there's nothing wrong with that. The problem with the Democratic fund raising that was criticized by President Clinton was having people over in ones and twos at a time, people who were donors staying in the Lincoln Bedroom.
To have -- this is an event with a very large group -- a very large group of people. People say, well, it's a private event. It's an event for people who helped raise money for the campaign. I went, proud to go. Good news -- I didn't have to give 100 grand to go. I raised money to go. We worker bees...
NOVAK: You didn't pay to go last night, did you?
BARBOUR: I didn't pay anything.
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. The people...
(CROSSTALK)
You and I may agree on this. I just want to be sure. But I just want to make clear, everybody knows, the people who were invited last night, they're not people off the street. The people who were invited were members of the Regents Club, which either give or raise 250 grand, or members of the Team 100, who give or raise 100 grand. You had to be in that category to get invited.
All I'm saying is, wouldn't you admit that there's no difference between that and what Clinton White House did in terms of having receptions to pay back their big donors? BARBOUR: In terms of having receptions, you're exactly right, Bill, but it's not receptions that got President Clinton in trouble. It was inviting people to spend the night at the White House, having these little small events where they were obviously...
(CROSSTALK)
... they were obviously people...
NOVAK: Secret, too. They were secret.
PRESS: They were not secret.
NOVAK: They certainly were. They were secret.
(CROSSTALK)
What do you mean?
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: What's the difference between that and the White House coffee? Zero difference.
NOVAK: All right. All right. All right, Tony...
(CROSSTALK)
COELHO: ... of who attended last night.
PRESS: Thank you.
BARBOUR: It's all reported, all reported.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: I -- I want you -- I've always said you were a straight- shooter.
COELHO: So have I. I really appreciate that.
NOVAK: I've always felt that.
PRESS: Watch out.
NOVAK: You know, you rose to fame in the House of Representatives as one of the great, relentless, rapacious fund- raisers of all time. You could raise money out of a -- out of a dead stone. Now, you...
COELHO: It was a mere pittance compared to this guy.
NOVAK: Now, you surely -- you surely are not going to criticize having some fund-raisers and fund-givers for dinner at the vice president's house.
COELHO: No, I'm not. You know what I am...
NOVAK: OK, good, you didn't...
COELHO: You know what I am going to criticize -- you know what I am going to criticize, though, Bob? You know what I'm going to criticize, though, Bob, is the hypocrisy of people on this show and Republicans across-the-board who have criticized the Democrats for doing the same exact thing. As a matter of fact, I'll just let the record show that in this show and Republicans across-the-board said that the Bill Clinton people raped the White House and furniture and dishes and...
NOVAK: Those were secret meetings, though, that they had...
COELHO: And the facts are it didn't happen. The facts are it didn't happen.
PRESS: And they weren't secret or we wouldn't know about them.
All right, we're going to take a break, and when we come back, the big political question of the week is will Janet Reno drive Jeb Bush out of the Florida governor's chair. Watch out, Haley.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
And just when you think the political landscape's getting boring, along come a couple of new faces to shake it up. Two of them popped up this week. The Reverend Al Sharpton told CROSSFIRE last night he's thinking of running for president in 2004, and former Attorney General Janet Reno has told the whole world she's contemplating a run for governor of Florida against Jeb Bush. Fasten your seat belts. So are Republicans quaking in their boots yet?
All politics tonight with Haley Barbour, former chair of the Republican National Committee, and Tony Coelho, former chair of the Gore for President campaign.
Bob.
NOVAK: Tony Coelho, I think I have found my dream Democratic candidate for president, and let's -- let's take a listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. AL SHARPTON, NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK: I think that given the voter rights violations of last year and, in my opinion, the lack of the Democratic Party and the Republican Party fighting that, clearly, we need a new strategy in the progressive communities for 2004, and I think a candidacy is in order.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now let's think about it. Al Sharpton is certainly liberal enough. He represents a major constituency of the Democratic Party. He's from a base state, a very big state, New York. He's charismatic, articulate, not...
COELHO: We don't need a New Yorker. We win New York. So we want to go someplace else.
NOVAK: ... not shy.
COELHO: So we want to go someplace else. New York doesn't work for us.
NOVAK: Do you think he's a good candidate, or are you prejudiced?
COELHO: I'm not prejudiced. I just don't think we need New York. I thought we ought to go somewhere in the South. Something South.
NOVAK: Why do you -- don't you think he'd be a terrific candidate for you?
COELHO: Oh, I...
NOVAK: Don't you think he typifies...
COELHO: Everybody has a right to run. I think it's great...
NOVAK: He typifies the...
COELHO: Everybody has a right to run. No, he represents a certain element...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... Democratic Party.
COELHO: ... of the Democratic Party, and that's great, but -- everybody has a right to run, but really in truth, New York is...
NOVAK: Will you consider supporting him?
COELHO: Would I consider sup -- I'll support anybody the party puts out.
NOVAK: I mean for the nomination.
COELHO: The nomination. No, I won't.
NOVAK: Not -- no, you won't? All right.
Well, I think that the other interesting candidate is -- is sort of a -- not similar to Reverend Sharpton but very...
COELHO: Be careful. Be careful.
NOVAK: ... but very, very interesting. Let's listen to what she says.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET RENO, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: I love Florida very much. I was born and raised there. I have lived there most of my life, and I want to make sure that I do everything I can either as governor or otherwise to serve the interests of the people of Florida.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Now I'd like you to assess her as a candidate for governor, one of the worst attorney generals in the history of the country, just not up to the job. She was the person who sent the stormtroopers in to pull out Elian Gonzalez. She'll go very well with the Cuban community. Do you think she's a...
COELHO: Yes, she is.
NOVAK: ... a viable candidate for governor?
COELHO: Yes, she is. She's -- she's run three times in one of the most populous counties. She...
NOVAK: That's like New York. Dade County, isn't it?
COELHO: She -- she was -- she ran -- she's very strong in that county. She has -- she's also an individual who's served eight years as the attorney general of the United States of America. She...
NOVAK: How do you think she did?
COELHO: She -- she did a good job. She also...
(LAUGHTER)
COELHO: ... happens to have a disability, and I think she has represented herself well, and I think a lot of people admire and respect her ability to perform and what she's done. She'll be a very formidable candidate. I think there is going to be several other candidates out there, and we'll see who the party nominates. But she's a very formidable candidate, and I love people like you making fun of her.
PRESS: Mr. Chairman, I am still intrigued by this Republican fund-raising that's going on in town.
NOVAK: Don't you want to talk about Janet?
(LAUGHTER)
PRESS: I think Tony spoke well about Janet. I concur.
NOVAK: All right.
PRESS: We have a new fund-raiser in chief, George W. Bush raising $15 million for the Republican National Committee tonight, and I looked at the invitation, and there's a surprising number of people from the energy industry there. Among the co-chairs, Rick Shelby from the American Gas Association, Bud Albright from Reliant Energy, Robert Aiken with Pinnacle West, which owns a big utility in Arizona, and lo' and behold, pledging 250 grand, according to "The New York Times," big lobbyist Haley Barbour representing Southern Energy.
I mean, my question is -- Haley, is this. Was this the way all you energy guys say thank you to George Bush and Dick Cheney for that energy plan that gives you all these -- you know, gets rid of all the regulations so you can make all this money?
BARBOUR: Well, let me just say, first of all, Bill, in case my wife's watching, I didn't give any money.
PRESS: No, I said raised.
BARBOUR: OK.
PRESS: Pledged.
BARBOUR: Good. I just wanted to make sure that you knew that I raised money.
PRESS: It doesn't...
BARBOUR: Raised money for the event. Not gave money for the event.
PRESS: This is a big -- this is a big thank you for the energy plan, isn't it?
BARBOUR: This is actually going to more than 2,000 people there tonight. Maybe 3,000 people there. They'll be from all over -- small business, big business, professionals -- from 50 states all over the United States. It's going to be a tremendous event.
They're talking about raising $15 million. It will surprise me if they don't raise more than $15 million. I think it will be a very good demand.
And I think my friend, Tony Coelho, with whom I happen to agree about Janet Reno -- I don't think the Democrats could nominate anybody better for governor of Florida than Janet Reno, so -- and I think Tony probably agrees with me on the fact that this fund-raiser, which is all open and aboveboard, totally reported, is exactly the way the parties ought to raise money.
What do you think, Tony?
COELHO: Well, you know what? I think with your tax bill, you'll get more than $15 million. Geez, at least you should get $20, $25.
PRESS: I never hinted there's anything wrong with this fund- raiser, and you never came close to answering my question. You danced around it. My question is why is it that four out of five -- five rather of the -- four out of the five of the major co-chairs are from the energy industry and the -- and there are two others lower down from the tobacco industry. This is payback, right, to the Bush campaign for...
BARBOUR: Bill, I didn't dignify that with an answer because I didn't think you really mean it.
PRESS: I do mean it.
BARBOUR: I thought you were...
PRESS: Why else are you...
BARBOUR: I thought you were just...
PRESS: Why else are...
BARBOUR: I thought you were just posturing when you said that.
PRESS: Why else are the energy companies giving Bush all this money?
BARBOUR: These are people from every industry group in the United States. Sure there are people there from the utility ind -- there are people from the airlines. There are people there from Main Street, from the restaurant association.
NOVAK: Quick -- quick question, Tony. You've been around. Tobacco -- tobacco gives some money to the Democrats, right?
COELHO: Not much anymore.
NOVAK: Oh, they used to give a lot? They used to give a lot.
COELHO: Yeah, but, see, they don't like -- they don't like the fact that we put kids and families first, and so they now give it all to the Republicans.
NOVAK: OK. All right. I'll have to smoke that sometime. Thank you very much, Tony Coelho.
COELHO: You're very welcome.
NOVAK: Thank you, Haley Barbour.
BARBOUR: Thank you, Bob.
NOVAK: And we'll be back to talk politics, Mr. Press and I, after these messages.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PRESS: Bob, you've probably mentioned a thousand times on this show that I'm former Democratic state chair of California.
NOVAK: And not a very good one either. PRESS: And as such, I've been involved in dozens of receptions and dinners like that's going on this week at the White House, at the vice president's house. You've got to agree with me there is zero difference between what Bush is doing and what Clinton did.
NOVAK: There's a huge difference. That -- those were -- those were fund raisers using the Lincoln bedroom, selling privileges. But I'll tell you what's really interesting.
PRESS: No way, Bob. Same thing. Same thing.
NOVAK: If Jim Jeffords really leaves the Republican Party and the Democrats take over the Senate, that's going to be bad news for -- for George W. Bush but very good news for the Republican fund raisers. Talking about Paul Sarbanes as chairman of the Banking Committee, I mean, they'll be getting money from frightened businessmen. So the more money will come in to defeat Jerry Oak, and it will be bad news in the long run.
PRESS: No. I think it's going to be great news for the American people, and it's going to be bad news for Trent Lott. If he were a strong Senate leader, this would never have happened. It's just because he's so nasty to people who don't agree with his policies...
NOVAK: But, see...
PRESS: ... that Jeffords would leave the party.
NOVAK: That's not because of Trent Lott. It's because of the White House that he might leave. But let's see how Daschle does as majority leader. It's a big difference.
PRESS: A great majority leader. We'll see.
NOVAK: We'll see.
PRESS: From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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