Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Crossfire

Jim Jeffords Defects From GOP: Will More Republicans Follow?

Aired May 24, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAMES JEFFORDS (I), VERMONT: I will leave the Republican Party and become an independent.

Control of the Senate...

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Tonight, Jim Jeffords makes it official. Will anyone else follow his lead?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois and Republican Senator George Allen from Virginia.

CARLSON: Good evening, and welcome to CROSSFIRE. It turns out one man really can make a difference. That's the lesson of Vermont Senator James Jeffords, who left the Republican Party this morning to become an independent. Thanks to Jeffords, the balance of power in Washington has shifted dramatically. For the first time since 1994, Democrats will control the United States Senate, 50 to 49.

Even as they begged Jeffords to stay, Republican leaders searched desperately for a Democratic Party-switcher to replace him. Overtures to Zell Miller of Georgia, and Ben Nelson of Nebraska appear to have failed. Senate Democrats (sic) will have to live with minority status. It could be a difficult existence.

Jeffords has said he plans to vote for Bush's tax cut. After that, he'll likely side with Democrats. It's grim news for the president. The question is: How grim? Is the rest of Bush's agenda dead? Will his appointees be confirmed? The era of divided government has returned. It ought to be exciting -- Bill?

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: It is exciting. Senators, if you excuse me for just a minute, we have some business to conduct. We have an official new co-host of CROSSFIRE as of this evening, Tucker Carlson.

CARLSON: Bill Press.

PRESS: Welcome to the show.

CARLSON: Thank you.

PRESS: Delighted to have you here.

CARLSON: Thanks.

PRESS: Senator Allen, you haven't read the "New York Post" yet today?

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: No, I haven't.

PRESS: I want to show the cover of the "New York Post," here it is. "Benedict Jeffords" -- of course, the "New York Post" can't recognize a man with a conscience. But I want to ask you, as a former fellow Republican colleague of Senator Jeffords, do you consider him a traitor for what he did today?

ALLEN: There are some who had campaigned for Jim Jeffords last year up in Vermont, which is not an easy place for Republicans to succeed, with the way most conservatives are, and Republicans. And so some fee that, yeah, they made a lot of effort for him. I was watching CNN at 9:30 in my office to watch the statement.

PRESS: Thank you.

ALLEN: And he had three main reasons why he left. He said No. 1 was he cared about Vermont, and the people of Vermont. Secondly, he cared about his principles and his beliefs. And third, he says this is not a parliamentary system. It's a separate branch, the legislative branch. And while I don't have the same beliefs or ideas as he does -- and obviously, I care about Virginia more than any other state -- I understand that. It's very logical.

While we have differences of opinion, I'm -- the reason I'm a Republican is because I think Republicans allow people to think for themselves with minimal government intrusion and taxes and burdensome regulations, and so I'm disappointed. I think all Republicans are disappointed. I'm not going to be casting aspersions. I think it was a tough decision for him. I think it probably was a long time coming, but there were a few things that undoubtedly happened in the last few months that pushed him over.

PRESS: It seems to have been a long time coming, and he talked about, as you say, where he saw his party moving away from him. But one issue that he really cared about was special education. It's reported today that when the president put out his $1.6 trillion tax cut, he went down to the White House and he said: Look, you know, I don't like this. I think it takes too much money away from education. But there's one thing I really think we want to do, is special education, special education for those kids that need that particular help.

He asked for $180 billion over the next 10 years on top of the tax cut. And the president said no dice. Senator, if the president said yes, he could have had special education, he could have had the whole $1.6 trillion tax cut, and he could have still had Republican control of the Senate.

Wasn't that a huge, stingy mistake on Bush's part?

ALLEN: Well, I don't know what that conversation really said. The special ed, or IDEA, is something that I think, if the president remembered the days when he was governor, us governors complain about that being an unfunded federal mandate. And there are those of us who think that the federal government, before it puts any new mandates on, ought to fund those mandates, including for testing in this accountability. In my view, we ought to be moving toward that.

Now, don't state the incorrect, which is that the tax cuts are taking away from education funding. Education funding is growing a great deal. That is something that I think the president actually and many Republicans believe the federal government does need to step up to the plate and pay for special ed, as well as allow schools to discipline students, which is another mistake. The federal government is not allowing localities or local schools to discipline students who beat up teachers or carry guns to class or sell drugs in school, just because they have a learning disability. That's not right, either.

But at any rate, I think there's progress being made on that. Not as much as Jim Jeffords or some of us would want. I'm not sure if the president really knew how serious Senator Jeffords was in his commitment to it. I think if he did, he would have found a way to support that.

CARLSON: Well, his seriousness is actually the basis of my question. Let's, Senator, recap here from the beginning, very quickly. Six months ago, Jim Jeffords was in Vermont campaigning for George W. Bush for president. He was on his Vermont campaign committee.

Bush comes to Washington, apparently in minor ways, snubs Jeffords, neglects to invite him to some ceremony at the White House. Jeffords gets miffed and he bolts the party in a fit of peak. He doesn't give a single philosophical reason for it. There's no ethical reason for it. He's just angry at George W. Bush's personal treatment of him. That's really the story, isn't it?

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: No, it isn't at all. And I think, in fairness to Senator Jeffords, this has been a long time coming. In a statement today, which I thought was extraordinary, really spelled out some matters of principle that led to this decision.

He can best speak for himself, but in that statement he said it was questions relative to education, to the environment, to national defense, to a woman right to choose. All of these things have accumulated during his career. He feels that the Republican Party has really closed the door to people of his thinking, that moderate thinking is really not welcome. And I think that's one of the reasons why he has decided to be an independent.

But let me just say, before we go too far in this diatribe against someone who changes parties, I was just reflecting for a moment here on how many are sitting on the Republican side of the aisle today who once were elected Democrats. Strom Thurmond, let me think who else would be in that -- Phil Gramm...

ALLEN: Ben Nighthorse Campbell...

DURBIN: Richard Shelby, Ben Nighthorse Campbell. We have four people who left the Democratic side to go to the Republican side, and they weren't branded as traitors.

CARLSON: Hold on. Hold on. This has not been a long time in the coming, and that's the difference. Jim Jeffords said this morning in his press conference: When I was elected six months ago, I planned to serve out six years of my term as a Republican. That was my plan.

He knew every position that George W. Bush held during the campaign. He ought to have. He campaigned for him. He didn't state a single example of anything in Bush's positions that has changed. He was elected planning to be a Republican. In the last six months he said he changed his mind. He offers no reason, and the only reasons there are, that we know of, are these personal snubs.

DURBIN: Tucker, I think you oversimplify. I think when a man makes a decision of this great moment, involving his career, changing course at this point and becoming independent, it is not a spur-of- the-moment idea that just came to him because he wasn't invited to the White House. Give credit where it's due. This is a man who went through a great deal of pain, I'm sure, and a great deal of conscience-searching before he came to this conclusion. I'm glad that he announced it. It certainly is going to help the Democrats organize the Senate. But I really respect Jim Jeffords. I think he made a tough decision.

PRESS: Senator, let's talk about the impact on some issues. First of all, you know, in this town it doesn't take long for people to respond to a new day. I want to be the first to give you this new button that's come out today. This button says: "Dear Mr. President, The honeymoon is over! Sincerely, Jim Jeffords."

You could wear that, or not wear it.

(LAUGHTER)

ALLEN: You have the Union bug on. Let's see where it's made. Hopefully made in the U.S.A.

PRESS: It must have been, because it couldn't have gotten here that fast from anywhere else.

ALLEN: Union-made, a tiger eye design.

PRESS: But the button has a point, right? In terms of controlling the agenda, this is a huge loss for George Bush, and Tom Daschle really takes over the agenda in the Congress, doesn't he?

ALLEN: Well, certainly does. No doubt about it. The Democrats will be setting the agenda. Now, on the actual issues I'm not sure what difference it really makes. The most pressing issue that's coming up, that we'll be voting on, maybe tomorrow or Saturday or next week or whenever the conference is over, is a very significant tax cut. Not as much of a tax cut as I would like. Jim Jeffords actually voted for the tax cut that passed through the Senate.

But when we get on to issues such as energy and what are we going to do about trying to get the gas prices down, or increase electricity supplies and so forth in this country, clearly it will be the Democrats setting the agenda when that will come up -- and patients' bills of rights and all these other issues. And so timing does matter. I didn't think, though, that the issues that we're running on, what I ran on or Jim Jeffords ran on or President Bush ran on, are issues that are going to go away. They may not be brought up in the time we'd like them to be brought up, but nevertheless, the reality and the rules that I've seen in the Senate is you're going to need bipartisan support to get anything done.

PRESS: Well, Senator Durbin indicated to Senator Jeffords today -- pointed out some specific areas where he knew he'd be disagreeing with the administration, and has sort of helped propel him -- issues, not peak -- propelled him, these issues, to make the decision that he did, which, I think, might forecast, and we can listen to it, some of the areas where there will be some differences in legislation. Here's Senator Jeffords from this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFORDS: Looking ahead, I can see more and more instances where I'll disagree with the president on very fundamental issues, the issues of choice, the direction of the judiciary, tax and spending decisions, missile defense, energy and the environment, and a host of other issues, large and small.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Just pick out two on that list: missile defense, drilling in Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, dead as of today. Wouldn't you agree?

ALLEN: If Jim Jeffords has those views this morning, are the same views he had a week or two ago, that's like Tucker said...

PRESS: But the chairs changed, senator, that's the point. The chairs changed...

ALLEN: If there is an energy bill that gets to the Senate floor, there are going to be a lot of amendments to it. Most people, for some reason, do not think that we ought to be using our own domestic supplies on the north slope of Alaska. To me, I don't understand their logic. I've been up there. These porcupine caribou that they worry about are pretty hearty animals to survive the winters of Alaska.

And as far as the summers are concerned, the mosquitoes wouldn't mind these buildings, a few buildings. That arctic refuge is the size of the state of South Carolina. The drilling area is half the size of Dallas Airport. I think a lot of people who are paying high prices for gasoline would like to see us less dependent on foreign oil. Nevertheless, my view is in the Senate a minority opinion, regardless of whether or not Frank Murkowski is chairman of Energy or Jeff Bingaman is chairman of Energy.

So, again, as far as the actual issues, I don't think there's any difference. They are going to be tough issues either way.

CARLSON: Senator Durbin, it strikes me that Jim Jeffords pretty much pulled a fast one on the people of Vermont, sort of a classic used car salesmen bait-and-switch. You know, drive the Corvette, drive on the Ugo. They elected him, by two-thirds apparently, as a Republican, as a part of the Republican Congress.

This has happened before, something similar happened to Phil Gramm. He had a special elected and was elected again as a Republican. Shouldn't Jim Jeffords, in fairness, do the same thing?

DURBIN: You know, that happened with Senator Phil Gramm. I recall it because I served with him when he was a Democrat in the House of Representatives, but certainly...

CARLSON: And he had the integrity to run again.

DURBIN: Well, it certainly didn't happen with others who have changed parties from the Democratic side to the Republican side in the Senate, and I don't recall that there were too many people on the Republican side calling for these people to stand for election.

Let's Senator Jeffords face the people of Vermont as he did this morning, as he will. I think they are going to admire his independence. I talked to Senator Pat Leahy, and he said the message he delivered this morning was a Vermont message.

CARLSON: But he won't face them again for six years.

DURBIN: Well, it's possible that he won't. But the fact is that he will be going back and facing these voters not in an election situation.

And let's get down to the bottom line here. He made a choice of conscience. He announced it publicly. He took a lot of grief for it, and he will continue to take grief for it, but he stood up for what he believed in. And I don't think that we should second-guess him at this point.

What it means more than anything is that issues important to Jim Jeffords and to the families of this country are now going to have a chance on the agenda of the Senate. Issues of prescription drug benefits under Medicare, the patients' bill or rights, doing something about the education and the environment, taking away the influence of the special interest and focusing back on the family agenda. I think that's what Democrats are about, and I think that balance is good in Washington.

ALLEN: However, we have been working on the education bill for week after week, and we had Jim Jeffords setting it up...

(CROSSTALK)

DURBIN: ... money out by passing that budget resolution. You can't say...

(CROSSTALK)

DURBIN: ... and not fund it.

ALLEN: The increases are hundreds and hundreds of millions, in fact, billions of dollars...

DURBIN: George, there's no question there's some increase but it's not enough to meet the president's promise. The president told us something significant would happen, now the money won't be there.

ALLEN: Oh, I think it will be.

PRESS: All right, senators, just hold there for just a second. We're going to take a break. We've been talking about the impact of Jim Jeffords' decision on the Senate. When we come back, what impact might it have on nominations to the United States Supreme Court? More CROSSFIRE coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. What a difference one man made today. He shook up the Senate, shook up the White House and shook up George Bush's chances to reshape the Supreme Court. That man, of course, Vermont's newly independent senator, James Jeffords.

Will newly-empowered Democrats give President Bush's judicial nominees a fair shot or just block them all? We assess the full impact of the Jeffords defection tonight with Republican Senator George Allen of Virginia and Democratic Senator Richard Durbin of Illinois -- Tucker.

CARLSON: Well, Senator Durbin, you and fellow Senate Democrats can now completely gum up the works of the president. Congratulations. You can block his nominees that require Senate confirmation and you can bork his Supreme Court nominees. Will you? Will Democrats demand, say, a litmus test on abortion? Will you demand that his nominees support Roe v. Wade?

DURBIN: I can't speak for other senators, but I'm looking for well-qualified people who are moderate in their views. If someone comes to us who wants to be on the Supreme Court and has an extreme position on any issue, I think they can understandably expect some scrutiny from the Judiciary Committee.

When you take a look at the long haul, though, we will be judged as a party as to whether or not we can work on a bipartisan basis with this White House in a positive and constructive way. Will we disagree? You bet we will, and we will have issues that we want to push forward that the House, the Republican House, may not agree with. But if are going to succeed in 2002, it will be with the suggestion that balanced, a Democrat Senate with the Republican White House, is a good balance for the American electorate.

CARLSON: OK. Then -- if you can't speak for others, how about you? If the Supreme Court nominee came and you were asked to vote on him, and that nominee said that he did not support Roe v. Wade. On that basis, would you cave to the abortion lobby and vote against him on that basis?

DURBIN: Cave to the lobby.

CARLSON: Yes, that's exactly right. Would you?

DURBIN: Let me say this, Tucker...

CARLSON: Would that be disqualifying?

DURBIN: That is not -- I don't do any litmus tests, and I have never done it on the appointment of federal district court judges in the state of Illinois. But I will take a look at the full spectrum of opinion. And I really want to know what that person, man or woman, is going to add to that court.

We are in a five-four balance on so many critical issues, relative to protecting the environment, public safety, questions of the food that we eat, the safety of the food that we eat, questions about a woman's right to choose and privacy for individuals. You bet I will look at the full spectrum, and if somebody is way off on the edge of it, they are not going to get my support.

PRESS: Now, Senator Allen, you know there have been conversations going on with a lot of different senators, or at least a little handful of senators, about maybe switching from one side to the other.

I want to ask you about a couple of them. Let's start up in the Northeast, with the senator from Rhode Island by the name of Lincoln Chafee, a son of a very moderate Republican, comes from the same part of the country, a good friend of Senator Jeffords, and the same kind of Republican. He says for now he doesn't have any plans to change parties, but he's also said he will never say absolutely no about anything. Is he the next one to jump? Are you worried about? Do you have any signs he's the next independent or Democrat?

ALLEN: I think Linc Chafee is one that we all are getting to know. I'm getting to know everyone really, but I think the Republicans have gotten a message here. We do need to listen.

We are a national party. We're a large party. We have many wings and different factions. I've always said we need to make sure all the wings are flapping together in the same direction. But we are a party that trusts individuals and trusts free enterprise and wants to make sure that people make most of the decisions for themselves with a minimal intrusion and pestering from the government. We believe in a strong national defense, reducing tax burdens, improving education. So we're going to fight for our agenda. Is every Republican going to agree on every issue? No, absolutely not, nor will every Democrat. But the key is to move this country forward.

PRESS: Let me ask you about another one who may be a wing of the party all to himself, and that's John McCain. He was supposed to have dinner with the president tonight -- it was canceled for whatever reason -- John McCain who has said it's about -- said, I think today, "It's about time the Republican Party grew up." John McCain rumored to be thinking seriously about independent. In fact, there were conversations -- while there were conversations going on with Jim Jeffords, Ted Kennedy and John Edwards and Tom Daschle were talking to John McCain about doing the same thing. Is he the next one to jump?

ALLEN: I don't think so. I think John McCain has said on numerous occasions that he's a Republican, will stay with the Republicans.

John McCain said something I do agree with, and this is something that wasn't brought up here, and that was the threats that you're going to kill some legislation or harm this dairy compact. I have found that that sort of bullying tactic or threatening people when I was governor just would never work and I wouldn't do it.

And in fact, if you think of why people join parties, it's a broad philosophical conglomeration of people. We're a very diverse country, and the Northeast has a different view than folks in the Southeast. But Republicans in particular don't like to be told what to do. They're generally mavericks who are not easy to herd.

And so John McCain's views -- and he's certainly a maverick, and I may not agree with him all the time, but I respect his right to be a leader on issues that he promised the people of Arizona or the nation when he was running. And we need to be respectful of a lot of different views, and whenever you can, try to get them together for a majority, but not try to thwart it as best you can to stop the harm.

CARLSON: Senator, in just 10 seconds, how you can trust this guy? The Soviets kept Kim Philby in an apartment after he defected because they know that once a guy switched over you can never really exert control over him, you could never trust him. Are you going to trust Jim Jeffords?

DURBIN: I served with him in the House and the Senate. I think he's an honorable man. I look forward to serving with him as an independent.

CARLSON: Well, good luck.

(LAUGHTER)

Senators, thank you very much. Senator Allen and Senator Durbin. Bill Press and I will be right back to discuss among other things can you ever trust Jim Jeffords. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PRESS: You know, Tucker, my first job was working for a Republican in California by the name of Peter Bear (ph), very much like Jim Jeffords, a very moderate Republican, very independent thinker, left and became a Democrat. Jeffords leaves, becomes an independent. I think the message is there's not much room for moderates in the Republican Party anymore.

CARLSON: Actually, in a Senate this closely divided, moderates have more power than they ever have. But the difference between your pal and Jim Jeffords is he actually joined another party. Jeffords took the coward's way out and just sort of chose none of above. And it's a huge problem for Democrats, because how can they exert party influence over him.

They've bribed him with this committee chairmanship, on a committee he doesn't even belong to, incidentally. And what are they going to do if he starts acting up? Nothing.

PRESS: But they'll have his vote. Now, Tucker, I want to welcome you to CROSSFIRE and I just want you to know once in a while on CROSSFIRE you may encounter a little "spin." And you know, we got used to that in "THE SPIN ROOM." So I have a little present for you tonight.

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Bill...

PRESS: I want you to feel at home, Tucker, OK.

CARLSON: Oh, the nostalgia sweeps over me, Bill.

PRESS: We welcome you.

CARLSON: Well, thank you. It's wonderful...

PRESS: We welcome you to CROSSFIRE. It's going to be a great run.

CARLSON: It's going to be a wonderful run. I can't wait.

PRESS: All right. From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow might when we have convicted polygamist Tom Green and three of his five wives. Speaking of a great show, that'll be one.

PRESS: See you then.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com