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CNN Crossfire

Should Gary Condit Resign?

Aired July 16, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: If the facts are as they appear they may be, then he should consider resigning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Another call for Gary Condit's resignation. But is infidelity a reason for the congressman to step down?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE.

On the left Bill Press. On the right, Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, Republican Congressman David Dreier of California and in New York, Democratic Congressman Charles Rangel.

PRESS: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Another voice, a very powerful voice, calls on Congressman Gary Condit to step down. This time, Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott who said over the weekend:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: Infidelity is always unacceptable, but particularly when you have an elected official involved in a position of trust with a young girl, an intern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Condit's still not talking publicly. Today, D.C. police were out in force searching for Chandra Levy. Their efforts focused on Rock Creek Park, near her home, an area she was checking maps about on her computer on May 1, the last day there's any known trace of her.

But while the police focus on the missing intern, the media continue to focus on Congressman Condit. Did he obstruct justice? Has he cooperated fully with police? Is his political career over? Should he resign?

Guess who's back? Tucker Carlson! I mean, we thought we'd never see you again.

CARLSON: And glad to be here. One of the great stories of the week. Congressman Rangel, you heard Trent Lott. Why shouldn't Gary Condit resign? He's been caught lying, he is embarrassing your party. He is disgracing the House of Representatives, why shouldn't he resign?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: Well, I didn't know that Senator Lott really believed in term limits. Because if that is going to be a criteria for members of congress to resign, then it is infidelity we've got a problem, it is absolute ridiculous. Infidelity is a question of one's family, their constituents, and if anything, it should be the Congressional Ethics Committee to review it.

But the truth of the matter is, the only evidence of infidelity has been a leak, probably from the police. So there has been no evidence of any wrongdoing by Congressman Condit.

CARLSON: Actually, it is interesting because this is, of course, about much more than infidelity, I want you to listen to Billy Martin, who is of course a lawyer for the Levy family, explain why what Congressman Condit has done or hasn't done is significant. Here is Billy Martin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILLY MARTIN, LEVY FAMILY ATTORNEY: It has taken so long for the congressman to admit, to the relationship, nearly 8 weeks passed before he admitted that, took him weeks to admit his wife was in town during the time Chandra disappeared. That is valuable time that can never be regained and recaptured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: So his lack of forthcomingness has fouled up this effort to find this 24-year-old girl, so it's not about cheating on his wife. It is about obstructing a missing person's investigation.

RANGEL: Everyone's heart should pour out for the family of this missing lady, who, as far as I'm concerned could be a victim of amnesia. The truth of the matter is that Attorney Martin is not the police chief. The police chief said that the congressman is cooperating, has cooperated, is not a suspect. Even the family who wished that Condit would do more have indicated that they don't believe that he is guilty of any wrongdoing.

And quite frankly, there are about 40 missing people in the District of Columbia, and you and I know, if this guy wasn't a member of Congress, the media wouldn't be trying this case.

PRESS: Congressman David Dreier, I'm impressed, the number of voices calling for Congressman Condit to resign has doubled over the weekend. On Friday there was only Bob Barr but today, we add Trent Lott. We are up to two. I want to see if we can get up to three, David Dreier.

Will you tonight call on your colleague from California Gary Condit to resign? REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: Absolutely not. For starters, first and foremost, as Charlie just mentioned, our priority is to ensure that Chandra Levy is found alive and well, and we are all thinking about that.

As far as Gary Condit is concerned, yes, I believe that he should have been more forthcoming in the discussions that he had from the reports that I have gotten -- again, they are all reports that have come forward -- and there are a number of troubling developments that we have seen.

But I think that his private life is his own. And I think everyone should be entitled to a veil of privacy. But when it deals with a missing persons case, when it deals with these very serious questions that are out there, I do believe that he had a responsibility to be forthcoming with the police when he was questioned. And, you know, I don't know, no one knows for sure, other than police, and the lawyers, and all we've got in reports that continued to come out, that have indicated possibly something to the contrary.

But no, I'm not going to call for his resignation, and Bill, you know there is a process through which we go, there is the House Ethics Committee, which will, based on the fact that there has been a call for an investigation of the situation, they will look at it I suspect.

PRESS: Let me ask you this, then: are you saying that Trent Lott was out of line to call for his resignation? That Bob Barr was out of line to call for his resignation?

DREIER: Bill, if you looked at Trent Lott's statement today which clarified what he said on Tony Snow's show yesterday, I believe he indicated that infidelity should not in fact disqualify one from serving in the Congress, I think the point that -- I think the point...

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: Why did he say it?

DREIER: You know what? I don't know why he said it. But I will tell you that, I don't agree with it. And I, again, believe that as we look at the situation I think that there were a lot of other factors involved that may have led him to conclude that and those factors are the fact that there is a missing woman here, the fact that we have concerns about her being an intern, you know, a young woman, she was 24 years of age.

I think that there are a lot of factors, but I don't think that the right thing to do is for me, as a member of Congress or for Charlie Rangel to call for his resignation. Many people in the media have done it. And they are certainly willing to, but I'm not going to join the chorus calling for his resignation.

CARLSON: Now, Congressman Rangel, you pointed out a moment ago, that Billy Martin is not the chief of police of Washington but the actual chief of police, Chief Ramsey himself, adds his name to the long list of people to whom Gary Condit lied. He lied to his fellow members, he lied to the Levy family, he lied to the press, he lied to the public.

And now the chief of police in Washington comes out and says, look, we tried to get this guy in to a polygraph examine with the FBI, and instead, he lied to us, that the D.C. Police Department. Listen to Chief Ramsey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF CHARLES RAMSEY, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: We were told that the congressman was busy attending sessions, things of that nature. Obviously, that wasn't true. So we would just like everybody just to be up front and honest, and if you are going to do a private exam, just say so and do what you are going to do, I mean, rather than go through all the motions of trying to make it look legitimate when, in fact, you are going to take another route.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: So here he is lying to the police as well. What do you have to do to resign from Congress? What's the threshold?

RANGEL: Well, it is a heck of a lot higher than being a television correspondent, I'll tell you that. But the truth of the matter is...

(LAUGHTER)

I tell you this, that, you know, the police chief is mumbling because he said earlier that Condit didn't have to give any dog gone lie detector test, and that it would be better if the police department conducted it instead of having his private expert. But you don't call that lying.

They -- the guy -- they didn't get a search warrant for his apartment, yet his apartment was searched. He was without subpoena, he subjected himself to examination, as well as that of his wife, and they keep saying he is cooperating, and you know...

CARLSON: Wait a second! He is cooperating because they said to him, look, Congressman, we have a sitting Grand Jury. So you can either cooperate or we can force you to. He did finally cooperate two months after this woman was reported missing, and yet, only under threat.

RANGEL: If there was any scintilla of evidence that the congressman is guilty of wrongdoing, they should go to the Grand Jury. I would like to believe that they are covering all possible items that they can investigate. All clues that may lead to the finding of this young lady.

And to have this all centered around one person when everyone is saying there is no evidence that he is involved in any wrongdoing, I think, is not right. PRESS: Congressman Dreier, I want to ask you about this polygraph, too. I mean, let's get right into it. Isn't the fact that Gary Condit volunteered and took a polygraph test more important than who gave the test? As long as the guy was a credible, you know, investigator.

DREIER: I'll tell you, Bill, if what you just said is the case, then there should be no problem in having a polygraph test that is conducted by the District of Columbia police, and I think that should be next step. It does appear that this polygraph test was put together by someone other than the independent operation doing the investigation, that being the police department.

And I think the responsible thing now having gone through that would be for Mr. Condit, and his lawyer Abbe Lowell and others to immediately come forward, and say OK, he will be subjected to a polygraph test.

PRESS: Wait a minute, the chief keeps saying, as Congressman Rangel mentioned, the chief keeps repeating that Gary Condit is not a suspect in any crime. So, Gary Condit goes, he gets a guy named Barry Colvert, who was the top polygraph expert for the FBI for years and years, who now teaches FBI agents how to give polygraphs. Are you saying this guy is not credible?

DREIER: Well,what I'm saying is that this was done by his counsel...

PRESS: Yeah.

DREIER: It would seem to me that it would seem to me that the responsible thing to do to completely clear the air here as far as a polygraph is concerned, because there are questions, would be for him to have the police department administer that, whether or not he is a suspect.

PRESS: Just...

DREIER: Remember, the questions, Bill, that were asked of Gary Condit were asked of him -- I mean, the litany of questions that Abbe Lowell went through in his news conference were questions that it would seem to me do raise concerns about his role.

PRESS: Just a -- just a quick point. You said that there are questions. We don't know that the police have any questions about that lie detector test. Isn't it up to the police to examine it and look at it and then say if they find it insufficient? And they have not done that yet.

DREIER: Bill, I think the response from Chief Ramsey was somewhat skeptical of the process. He said that in all of his years he had not seen this kind of thing done independently, and I think that he wished that it had been done in concert with the authorities.

RANGEL: But that's just a wish list. The fact is...

DREIER: OK.

RANGEL: ... that he would wish for everybody in District...

DREIER: I don't know. I'm just throwing out a wish list myself there, Charlie.

RANGEL: ... would come forward and say, I'll take a lie detector test. The fact is that this guy has done more as a nonsuspect than anyone I've ever heard of. And I really think that while we should concentrate on Gary, because it's a TV news item and that's what make the ratings, we should not -- we should not exclude the fact...

(CROSSTALK)

... that we don't -- we don't know, we have no idea where the girl is, whether there's any wrongdoing, whether she's lost her memory. And we should make certain, as the police chief constantly says, that Gary Condit is only one of about 40 different leads that they're trying to follow.

RANGEL: Absolutely, absolutely. I totally agree with that.

CARLSON: OK. We'll be back in just a moment to talk about nonsuspect Gary Condit and his role in this evolving scandal. As we go out, here is an interview, words that Chandra Levy's mother had with reporters today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN LEVY, CHANDRA LEVY'S MOTHER: I have fear, I'm scared, anxiety. I'm a mother. I'm really in pain a lot. I just want my daughter home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. "Life in politics has been anything but dull for Gary Condit," so reads the first line of the congressman's official biography. The boast has never been more true: a missing intern, a police investigation, an inquisitive U.S. attorney's office, and now calls for Condit's resignation. Anything but dull, but what about fair?

Tonight, we're talking to two longtime scandal watchers. From New York, Democrat Charlie Rangel of the House of Representatives, who believes that for a nonsuspect Congressman Condit has told a lot to police, and from Capitol Hill, his colleague, David Dreier, Republican of California, who believes it could be time for another polygraph examination -- Bill.

PRESS: Congressman Dreier, there are those -- we've heard a little bit of it tonight -- who think that Gary Condit has not been cooperating enough with the police department. There are others, some criminal defense lawyers around the country, who think he's gone too far already. I'd like you to listen to one of the best, Roy Black. Here's what he had to say over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I certainly wouldn't let him do a press conference. I wouldn't let the police in his house. I wouldn't let them search. I wouldn't let the police in my house. I wouldn't give them my DNA.

I mean, this is a -- let's face it. This is a homicide investigation by this time. You probably have half the police in Washington, D.C. working on it.

I mean, you know, what can this guy really do now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: So he's done all of those things even though he didn't have to do any of them, Congressman Dreier. Wouldn't you say that the fact that he was willing to do them sort of indicates he had nothing to do with Chandra Levy's disappearance?

DREIER: I think -- I hope and pray that that's the case, and I suspect it is. I'm not saying that he had anything to do with it, and I've known and worked with him for years. He's a very capable, hardworking member of Congress.

But I do know that there are questions out there that have been raised that have yet to be answered. And I -- and again, I'm not calling for his resignation...

PRESS: Right.

DREIER: ... I'm not -- haven't even called for the Ethics Committee investigation here.

But I think that being forthright with the District of Columbia police and other law enforcement authorities, if it's the FBI, involved in this is important. And it sounds as if he has done that. And I'm not saying that he hasn't.

But I do know that there are questions that have been raised, and I think that there should be answers to them.

PRESS: But to be specific, he has given three interviews himself. He's made his wife and his staff available to authorities. As we've said, he's taken a polygraph. His apartment has been searched. He gave the DNA sample, and he offered a $10,000 reward early on. I mean, what more could he possibly do?

DREIER: Well, I mean, the only thing I would say, the question it seems, Bill, that is out there, was he forthcoming at the very outset? And I think that -- and could it have played a role in making sure that we would have had an early resolution to this? And I don't know the answer to that. I don't think anyone at this juncture knows the answer to that question.

It seems to me that what needs to be done is we need to make sure that every step is taken to find Chandra Levy. That is the priority here. And I hope and pray that that's exactly what's happening.

CARLSON: Congressman Rangel, you've been among the first, maybe the only so far Democrat in the House to come out pretty forthrightly in defense of Gary Condit. And he -- let's say he doesn't resign and he decides to run again. He's going to have trouble in his district, in Modesto. Let's say he comes to you and says, Congressman Rangel, will you stump for me? Will you help me raise money for my re- election? Would you?

RANGEL: You know, I think, in all fairness, Condit hasn't been charged with anything. You started this program with the fact that the number of people calling for his resignation had doubled. You had a clip of Senator Lott putting a new qualification for members of Congress, and that is infidelity. Then you have Dave Dreier saying that the senator's changed his mind.

I have always said, because I succeeded the late Adam Clayton Powell when the media and everyone else was asking him to resign, that it's the people in the congressional district that should be making the determination, first in the party, as to whether or not he should be the...

DREIER: You're right...

RANGEL: ... Democratic Party candidate.

DREIER: Charlie, I didn't -- Charlie, I didn't say that he changed his mind. I said today in his news conference he clarified the statement that he made yesterday.

RANGEL: What did he say? What did he say?

DREIER: In his news conference he said that as he looked at the responsibility that in fact a member of Congress has, that it raised questions. And I think he also said if everything that has come out is true. But he said that these are charges and he did not join in calling for his resignation. So...

RANGEL: Well,he did yesterday, you know, and so -- so...

DREIER: Listen, I'm not here -- I'm not here, Charlie, to talk about...

RANGEL: So, that -- that cuts the number of people that have asked for resignations in half, and we're still left with Bob Barr. Well, he wants every Democrat to resign.

CARLSON: Wait. Congressman Rangel, with all due respect, I asked you if you'd be willing to stump for Gary Condit in his re- election effort, should that occur. And you didn't answer the question, so I'm assuming you wouldn't. RANGEL: If the people -- if the people in his congressional district want him to return, I would go down there, not that I think it is the type of district that I could be extremely helpful.

DREIER: Hey, they love you in Modesto, Charlie.

RANGEL: But I would...

DREIER: Everybody wants that Rangel message...

RANGEL: But if I could -- if could be helpful...

DREIER: You can come and campaign for me, too, Charlie, if you want. I'd love to have in Los Angeles.

RANGEL: Well, listen, the House...

DREIER: You know, I've already gone and campaigned for you, Charlie.

PRESS: All right, hold on. Hold on.

DREIER: You know, the House isn't big enough for you and me both to be chairmen, so I think I'll be down there...

PRESS: Congressman Dreier, I want to pick up another point here, which a lot of people are critical of Gary Condit about, and I just want to see if you agree. The fact that he has been talking to the police, maybe not as early as he should have, but he has not talked to the media at all. A lot of people think he ought to have a news conference, he ought to give an interview.

First, before you answer, I want to let you listen to something that Stan Brand, who's a great attorney here in town, said to "The Los Angeles Times" Saturday. He said, quote: "As a lawyer, your instinct is always to have your client hunker down and shut up. I always think of a friend of mine who had a huge fish on his office wall. Under it said, 'If I hadn't opened my mouth, I wouldn't have been hooked.'"

Should Gary Condit have a news conference and tell his side of the story?

DREIER: That's obviously for him to decide.

PRESS: What do you think? What do you think?

DREIER: You know, what I think: I think that it's important for him to be forthcoming with law enforcement authorities. I think that at some point he'll need to talk with his constituents. He was unable to go out to the 4th of July events out there, and he's been able -- unable to attend a couple of other events here in Washington, I know.

I think that at some point he's going to have to do that, but I'm not going to be the one to say today he should have a news conference and talk about this. He's going -- if he's going to stand for re- election, he clearly is going to have to, Bill, at some point talk about this. But I'm not going to be the one to say when he should do it.

PRESS: Well, in the mean -- in the meantime...

RANGEL: I think that members of Congress and public officials do have a higher standard in terms of moral responsibility. And I do think that they have an obligation to come forward and explain positions when it's controversial. But I think that...

(CROSSTALK)

RANGEL: ... that primary obligation -- that primary obligation is to the constituents that sent you to Congress.

DREIER: Right, correct.

RANGEL: And that's what we're talking about.

DREIER: Exactly.

PRESS: David Dreier, just a quick question here: He is talking, though, to members on the Hill, because he's on the Hill and he's doing his job. My question to you is, have you had any conversation recently with Gary Condit and what is he telling you?

DREIER: Yes, I have. I've talked with him last Thursday, and he basically said that he had done nothing wrong. And I said, there are people calling for your resignation. And he said, I know that but I have done nothing wrong and I don't plan to resign.

So, you know, he is -- he is casting votes here in the Congress, but it is true. He is going to have to be accountable to his constituents at some point and give some kind of explanation, and it's up to him and his lawyers and the police and everyone involved in this to make a determination.

CARLSON: Well, in the meantime, Congressman Rangel, Condit has lied, and so in the meantime should he recuse himself -- I mean, should he come in contact with, say, classified information in his role as a member of Congress? Should he -- should he decline and recuse himself and not have access to this information? I mean, how trustworthy is he?

RANGEL: For what -- for what reason? I mean...

CARLSON: Well, because he's lied to fellow members, to the police, to the press, to the family.

RANGEL: What did he lie about? I mean...

CARLSON: He went to fellow members and said, I didn't have this affair. He did.

RANGEL: Well, how do you know he had this affair? He's never said he had this affair.

(LAUGHTER) You're talking about something that -- you're laughing, but you know...

CARLSON: Well, because wouldn't Abbe Lowell be on CNN right now denying it if it weren't true?

RANGEL: I have -- I mean, why should you have to deny the negative? I mean, I think that's so completely unfair. I would think he has enough problems with his wife now without you asking him to go on television to deny a police leak, if it came from the police at all. As of now, if your life depended on it, Tucker, you cannot charge this man with doing anything, including lying.

PRESS: Congressman Rangel and Congressman Dreier, sorry, we are out of time. Thank you very much.

DREIER: I'm happy we're out of time.

PRESS: I'm happy that you joined us, congressman. We are. Congressman David Dreier, thanks for being there again. Congressman Charles Rangel, two of our favorite CROSSFIRE guests. And when we come back, in our closing comments, Tucker and I will give the list of all the other members of Congress who should immediately resign. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: You've got to give Charlie Rangel credit for acting against his own party's interests. I mean, as long as the Gary Condit story continues to be in the press, the intern party is the headline, because that's really -- that's really what the Democratic Party is. The intern party.

PRESS: Well, I just want to sign on to the Trent Lott test for resignation. I hereby call upon Congressman Dan Burton to resign. We know he had an affair. I hereby call upon...

CARLSON: Oh, please.

PRESS: ... Congressman Henry Hyde to resign. We know he had an extramarital affair.

CARLSON: That is -- that is ludicrous.

PRESS: No it's the new Trent Lott rule. Let's enforce it.

CARLSON: If Condit had come out -- if Condit had come out at the beginning and said, look, I had an affair with this woman, it's unseemly, I regret it, much as I enjoyed it, and I'm going to make every effort to try and find her, none of this would have happened.

PRESS: I want to expand it. Every congressman who lied about having -- having an affair and lied about it should resign. Washington would be a ghost town, a ghost town.

CARLSON: How about every congressman (UNINTELLIGIBLE) affairs with interns. That would affect disproportionately one party I have the feeling.

PRESS: Empty town. From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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