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CNN Crossfire

Is Former President Jimmy Carter Right to Criticize President Bush?

Aired July 25, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Tonight: Jimmy Carter says he is disappointed in almost everything George W. Bush has done. Is his criticism valid? Is this any way for an ex-president to be talking about the current occupant of the White House?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE, White House media affairs director Tucker Eskew. And Democratic Congressman Robert Wexler from Florida.

NOVAK: Good evening welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Few presidents were so consistently lambasted as Jimmy Carter so he knows the vocabulary of vituperation; now he has broken the rules of the ex-presidents fraternity by hitting George W. Bush aside the head.

In a newspaper interview President Carter said he has found President Bush wanting. Why, Jimmy Carter, he even attended the new president's inauguration only to find George W. Bush is not the kind of guy Carter envisioned. He told "The Columbus Georgia Ledger Inquirer" I thought he would be a moderate leader but he has been strictly conforming to some of the more conservative members of his administration. His vice president and secretary of defense in particular.

"More moderate people like Colin Powell had been frozen out of the basic decision-making in dealing with international affairs."

The former president called Bush's national missile defense technologically ridiculous, panned him for not stopping Israeli settlements and not pursuing human rights everywhere.

Is Jimmy Carter a prophet of truth or a quarrelsome has-been? Bill Press.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Tucker Eskew, President Carter hasn't said anything new. He just got a lot more attention. My question to you is, what's your beef with what he said or the fact that he got so many headlines because he is the former president?

TUCKER ESKEW, WHITE HOUSE MEDIA AFFAIRS DIRECTOR: Good evening, Bill,

Actually there is something new: just two months ago, this president, former President Carter, said that he really didn't have much to quarrel with, with the new administration so you can kind of take these new comments with a grain of salt.

This president -- our current president -- ran as a compassionate conservative. He's doing in office what he said he'd do. Maybe that is a surprise to some people, but not to most Americans.

NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, quite apart from the content of Jimmy Carter's remarks, hasn't he broken a very useful convention that has been observed in this country as long as I have been around, which is a long time, that former presidents kind of stick together, it is a very tight little club, and they don't attack each other?

REP. ROBERT WEXLER (D), FLORIDA: It is a tight club, and to my knowledge, President Carter has not since he has been out of office spoken about any president, either Reagan or the first President Bush. He was at times critical of Clinton, if I remember. So he must feel so compelled about what he perceives as the disastrous job that President Bush is doing to speak out.

Let's talk to the specifics, because that is really what it all relates to: President Bush ran as a new kind of compassionate conservative, he lost the popular vote, he had no mandate. What has he done? He went after the women's right to choose, he gave us a tax cut that didn't unite us. It divided us.

PRESS: All right, we'll come back to some of those issues, but Tucker, I want to remind you and our viewers why Jimmy Carter got elected president. He got elected because he made one promise to the American people. Let's go back to 1976. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES EARL CARTER, 39TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would like you to listen closely, because I mean it. I will never tell a lie, I will never make a misleading statement. I will never betray the confidence that any of you has in me, and I will never avoid a controversial issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: He said he would always tell the truth. He was telling the truth then and he is telling the truth now. That is why you don't like it, isn't it?

ESKEW: You are entitled to your opinion, sir. I'll tell you, the current president respects President Carter. He reached out to him on an issue they have something in common on, Habitat for Humanity, on a project that he went to work in Florida on, very recently. But we take some exception to his comments here.

But I think we ought to get into this a little bit more, you talked about get back into it. I think we, should you know, it is not really a question of whether this president is too conservative. It might be a question of whether some of our opponents are too political to adapt to a new thinking in Washington and really a new Washington.

PRESS: That's -- let me -- just let's be specific here, OK? Here is what President Carter said, that the president has done nothing in terms of making a demand that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) remove settlements from the West Bank, he said he's ignored the moderates in his own party, he said he threatened to withdraw from the ABM Treaty, and he said he has abandoned the Kyoto Treaty.

Every one of those statements is true, you can't deny it.

ESKEW: Let's take them on. Kyoto Treaty: 95 U.S. senators, including a lot of Democrats, said no confidence in that treaty negotiated by the past administration.

Let's take on the issues in the Middle East. This president has taken a leadership role and said the parties should come to the table but first end the violence. That is a very strong statement.

This president has got an inclusive style. He does reach out to moderates. He worked with John Breaux, a Democrat moderate, on tax cuts.

He's worked with moderates in the Democratic Party on his faith- based initiative, and just won the endorsement of former ambassador Andrew Young, a Carter appointee.

I think there is a lot of outreach going on. He's an inclusive leader. We have lots to talk about on that.

NOVAK: Congressman Wexler, I know you want use this program as an opportunity to -- throw out your fully prepared bashing of the president since you started, but I want to talk about Jimmy Carter for a little bit. We don't get to talk about him much. His comments were commented on by one of my colleagues from NBC, who is a very astute political observer, Conan O'Brien. Let's see what he said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, NBC'S "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN")

CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST: In an interview yesterday, former President Jimmy Carter was extremely critical of President Bush. Critical of President Bush.

(LAUGHTER)

Carter's exact quote was, this guy is the worst president since me.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now, isn't that what makes a joke out of this? I was just talking to one of my close Democratic friends -- he said Jimmy Carter was one of the worst presidents this country ever had! When they mention his name at NBC, on "The Late, Late Slow" they laugh. That is joke, isn't it? For Jimmy Carter to be criticizing anybody?

WEXLER: Bob, you may want to make Jimmy Carter the issue, but that is not the issue.

NOVAK: That is what the program is about!

WEXLER: The issue is, has President Bush offered a moderate program? His energy policy is not a moderate program. He has rejected a bipartisan patients' bill of rights. He's offered almost nothing on prescription drugs. He has gone after when you talk about faith-based programs. He basically made a secret deal with the Salvation Army to cut people's civil rights out.

NOVAK: You know that is not true.

WEXLER: This is not a president who has reached out to moderate Americans. Where is he in terms of the tax cut? He basically used up 75 percent of the non-Social Security...

NOVAK: I want to talk about Jimmy Carter, whether you like it or not, but I'm going to be a good guy and I'm going to find something that Jimmy Carter and I and you can agree on, because I know you like Jimmy Carter, you can't criticize him.

And that is that we should really put the heat on Israel to get out of those settlements. I agree with President Carter -- will you agree with me on that?

WEXLER: Absolutely not! Nobody is perfect, and President Carter is wrong on that one.

NOVAK: You mean the one thing I agree with you, you won't go along with me on?

WEXLER: Let's review the record here. Prime Minister Barak offered up 93 percent of the West Bank, Yasser Arafat walked away from the table. To the Bush administration's credit, although I thought they were a little naive at the beginning and they said they could sort of remove themselves from the Middle East, they have done a good job at the United Nations. They have denied the ability of some of the Arab nations to ram through one-sided resolutions. I applaud President Bush and Secretary Powell for doing that.

PRESS: I want to pick on the Middle East in just a second, because I mean, one thing we do remember President Carter for, and give him credit for, is Camp David. I mean, he feels very strongly about the Middle East. He sees what's happening over there. The situation -- I have talked to people -- to Israelis, Jews who've been over there, talked to Arabs. Both tell me the situation is worse than they have ever seen it on the ground, the hostility is worse.

And you say that the administration's position is: You guys work it out. When you get everything resolved, come to the table and we will be there. Where is the leadership? Where is the demand to stop the settlements? Where is the demand on Israel to stop hunting down and assassinating Palestinian leaders? ESKEW: Let me, first, appreciate the congressman's backhanded compliment. It was a compliment nonetheless. And the president is leading on the Middle East. He...

PRESS: How?

ESKEW: He is following the dictates and recommendations of the Mitchell Commission report. His secretary of state, Colin Powell, who the former president has brought up, has been to the Middle East himself and conducted on-the-ground diplomacy. And this secretary of state, meeting with the president regularly, is part of a team that is leading the peace, and is saying, put down your arms, there is no peace without an end to the violence.

PRESS: You mentioned Colin Powell, which is one of the moderates that President Carter says that the president is not listening closely enough to. I mean, as Bob said in the introduction, President Carter went to inauguration because he had high hopes for this president. He thought he was going to be moderate, he thought he was going to reach out, he thought he was going listen to moderates, to his own party as well as the other party.

Tom Daschle, majority leader of the United States Senate -- isn't that proof that George Bush has just turned a cold ear to any moderate within his own party?

ESKEW: Well, I believe he said that Tom Daschle was -- new majority leader said the president was being isolationist. And I'm afraid the majority leader...

PRESS: How about Jim Jeffords? Jim Jeffords, that made Tom Daschle majority leader. Isn't that proof the way Tom Daschle got there that George Bush hasn't been listening to moderates?

ESKEW: Proof of no such thing. It's proof of a lot of other things. It has very little to do with this president who has made education his top priority, who has said on his faith-based initiative to bring communities together with a new approach, that we are going to solve social problems, and has said on taxes, I'm going to provide real relief for taxpaying Americans. And he did it. He delivered. We've got a culture of accomplishment, congressman. It is starting in Washington. President Carter will come back around.

WEXLER: The president said that education would be his priority, but he's not going to have any money left after the tax cut now that the economy is shrinking, to pay for it.

Let's talk about foreign policy a second. As a result of the president's initiatives, you now have Russia and China coming together -- joining together -- that's not good for us. You have Tony Blair in England saying he will offer himself up as a moderator between us, the Americans and the Europeans.

Why does President Bush need a moderator to talk to the Germans and the French, our allies?

(CROSSTALK)

WEXLER: Mr. Blair said it.

NOVAK: He's a socialist. What can you expect from him?

WEXLER: We have no credibility left, unfortunately, in the European...

NOVAK: I know you don't -- I know you don't want to talk about Jimmy Carter, but you are a little young, Mr. Wexler. But do you know the fact that Teddy Kennedy ran against Jimmy Carter for the nomination in 1980, just attacking him as an abysmal failure on foreign policy all over the world?

Ronald Reagan was an elected, he said he was -- we were in disgrace, the Russians were running wild all over the world, invading Afghanistan. We had that fiasco in Iran. Can you imagine this former president criticizing anybody on foreign policy?

WEXLER: First of all, if you are using Jimmy Carter as the standard that current President Bush to try to live up to, all right, I grant you, maybe he is within shooting distance, but that is not the standard this president or Americans -- but don't question Jimmy Carter's integrity. The man is an honest man, and he is straightforward. You just don't happen to like the facts.

ESKEW: You mentioned facts. I'm sorry, tax cuts. Come on, congressman. The economists are making clear that if we hadn't taken this step we wouldn't be providing the boost to the economy that we need because of the slowdown that started under the last president.

And on international issues we've got our national security adviser, she's been in Russia. We've got actions occurring on missile defense and other discussions. Try moving the ball forward.

NOVAK: I want -- just a minute -- I want somebody to back up. Tucker, can I have somebody back him up, who was involved in that 1980 campaign? We asked Senator Kennedy the other day what he thought of President Bush's foreign policy. This is what -- this is what Senator Kennedy said on "EVANS, NOVAK, HUNT & SHIELDS" on this network.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CNN'S "EVANS, NOVAK, HUNT & SHIELDS")

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Well, I think he is -- clearly competent for the job. I think with regards to foreign policy, it is too early to make a judgment upon these trips and the explanations of his positions on those two items with foreign policy leaders.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't that much more of a statesmanlike, intelligent appraisal of the president who has been in office six months, by the opposition not by a supporter, than the blather from you and Jimmy Carter?

WEXLER: That may be, but you don't want to talk about any facts. We have completely alienated our European...

NOVAK: What do you say about what Senator Kennedy said? How about answering my question?

WEXLER: A very reasonable position. A very reasonable position.

NOVAK: Different than yours.

WEXLER: My position is I vehemently agree with the way President Bush has handled the Kyoto treaty. We have isolated ourselves on environmental issues...

NOVAK: Disagree.

WEXLER: Disagree, yes.

NOVAK: Get it right.

WEXLER: I completely disagree...

ESKEW: We might have to reconsider our position, congressman, if you changed that quickly.

WEXLER: That's right. And Tucker talks about economic policy? We have used up 75 percent of the non-Social Security surplus. What about prescription drugs?

PRESS: What about it? What about a lot of other issues. We are going to take a break we will get to some of those and also get back to foreign policy when we come back and ask the big question: has President Bush in fact made us again an isolationist nation? We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Welcome home, Mr. President. Here is a message from Jimmy Carter: You don't know what you are doing. And whatever you are doing, it is all wrong. Deputy assistant to President Bush, Tucker Eskew, says President Carter's criticism is way off-base.

Democratic Congressman Robert Wexler of Florida says for the most part Carter is right on -- Bob.

NOVAK: Congressman -- not on Israeli settlements -- Congressman Wexler, see if I can understand yours and the Democratic position and president's position, is that we shouldn't have a foreign policy which is American. We have to go hat in hand to the Europeans and say, please, can we do this, can we do that. There's no decisions that the United States can make on its own, as President Truman, as President Johnson, as President Reagan made decisions. Am I interpreting this correctly?

WEXLER: No, not at all. I think what we need is a foreign policy that's goal is to make America more safe, and not a foreign policy that plays to the interests of say the energy companies, or the oil companies. Now it's kind of funny. On the one hand, the Bush Administration asks for a missile defense program and 747s all with laser guns, and yet before the House International Relations Committee, the Bush Administration opposed the extension of ILSA, the 5-year sanction program on Iran and Libya.

So the country -- the biggest rogue nation in the world that poses the greatest threat with respect to biological and chemical weapons, the thing that we are supposed to be so concerned about, the Bush Administration is in lobbying against their sanction -- why?

For the oil companies and that is the problem.

NOVAK: You go off on your own there, Congressman, you don't answer my question, which is about are we entitled to make our own decisions and I would like to submit a witness for the defense, George W. Bush. Listen carefully, please, to what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's important to move beyond the ABM treaty. I would rather others come with us. But I feel so strongly and passionately on the subject about how to keep the peace in the 21st century that we'll move beyond, if need be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now, Congressman, I would really like you to answer my question for just one time, without going off an your next talking point, and that is: He said he would like others to move with us on the ABM treaty, and getting rid of that and going on a national missile defense, but if they don't, we will move on our own. Is there anything wrong with an American president saying we'd like to have people with us but if they're not with us, we'll go on our own?

WEXLER: Not in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with that. However, it's not in America's interest if we go on our own and Russia joins up with China and China increases its nuclear capacity. And then in return, India increases its, and then Pakistan increases its, and then we have an arm race with China, India and Pakistan. And if then Russia feels insecure, and rather than decreasing their nuclear weapons they increase nuclear weapons -- and we don't even know if it works yet.

NOVAK: Didn't you notice that he made a deal? President Bush made a deal with Putin? Didn't you know that?

ESKEW: President Putin did sit down with this president. We've made great progress, great strides with that nation. Now, you've tied congressmen, energy and foreign relations, and it must be said. On energy, this president wants a comprehensive and visionary approach to energy. That means production, it means 21st-century technology that produces conservation, alternative energy.

Let me just say that this group that denies that we have a problem had better just bury their heads in the sand, and while they're down there, keep digging to find some fossil fuel!

PRESS: I want to jump in because we're almost out of time.

ESKEW: ... while they're doing that, we'll work on conservation and alternative energy.

PRESS: You started this move earlier, talking about Tom Daschle because he made a criticism last week about the president's isolationist foreign policy. I want to pick up on that. Today in Geneva there was a vote on an international treaty, germ warfare -- 36-year-old treaty to be renewed to extend the ban against biological warfare. You know what the vote was? Fifty-six to one. The only country that voted against it? The United States.

Can you get any more isolationist than that? I mean, we won't even take a stand against biological warfare.

ESKEW: Of course we stand against biological warfare, Bill.

PRESS: Why didn't we vote for the treaty?

ESKEW: Bill, this president is standing up for that, he's standing up for American interests, and sometimes -- now, wait a minute. Sometimes, when there's a treaty with technical provisions, this country don't have in its best interests, this president is going to stand up and be courageous.

WEXLER: And that's different.

ESKEW: Leadership -- Congressman, he will lead on this, and let me tell you. That means moving the world toward more stability, more prosperity. You know, you push that out from America, you get democracy, you get freedom.

PRESS: Wait a minute. This is not the only treaty I want to point out. This is the fifth international treaty in the last six months that this administration has rejected. The vote on Kyoto in Bonn the other day was 178 to 1. We have voted against every single one of them!

ESKEW: In (UNINTELLIGIBLE) vote against the Kyoto Treaty was just a sign of how Americans...

PRESS: No, the 178 leadership nations of the world.

WEXLER: Leadership is not walking away from the negotiation table.

ESKEW: I'll take just a moment and point out, you've mentioned the majority leader's comments about isolationism, and let's face it. Since then, he's been found to be a little isolated himself, first on his timing and then on the substance.

NOVAK: We're out of time. Thank you very much, Mr. Eskew. I appreciate it very much. Thank you very much, Congressman.

And that gray diplomat, Bill Press and I will be back with some closing comments. We only wish Jimmy Carter were here to join us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Bill, I understand, I feel sorry for you, that you, as liberal from Lala Land, can't understand how a lot of us here in America really feel good about a president who stands for the country, even when he is outvoted 56 to one, 110 to one, because a lot of those international bureaucrats are wrong. We are the greatest country in the world, and we lead, we don't follow. You want him to follow.

PRESS: Yes, that's right, Bob. We're right and everybody else is wrong.

NOVAK: Exactly.

PRESS: We're right and 178 nations are wrong.

NOVAK: Right.

PRESS: You know what that is, Bob? That is typical Novak-Bush arrogance. That's what that is.

NOVAK: Nationalism.

PRESS: I want to tell you something else. You know what? Jimmy Carter was wrong about one thing. He said, "I disagree with almost everything George Bush has done." Drop the word "almost" and he's absolutely right on. Wrong on everything, so far.

NOVAK: You know, I'll tell you something about the -- the old story about the -- the frog calling the duck ugly or something? This is really -- for Jimmy Carter to criticize anybody on foreign policy shows a lack of shame.

PRESS: On Camp David, on the environment, on the energy, Jimmy Carter was a great president.

NOVAK: You don't believe that.

PRESS: I sure do.

NOVAK: You're going to tell me afterwards "I'm just kidding, Bob."

PRESS: No, I won't, either. From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE!

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