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CNN Crossfire

Bill Clinton's Return

Aired July 30, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That New Hampshire, tonight, has made Bill Clinton the comeback kid.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: He did it once, but can the comeback kid come back again?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Now I feel like I'm home. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Tonight, as he opens his office in Harlem, will Bill Clinton be an effective ex-president? Has he put all the scandals behind him?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE: Democratic Congressman Charles Rangel from New York and Republican Congressman Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

PRESS: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. The comeback kid has come back again. President Bill Clinton, back from pardon scandals, back from self-imposed exile in Chappaqua, welcomed like a conquering hero today to his new, post-presidential digs in Harlem. There were a few protesters from the new Black Panther Party, but otherwise it was a love fest, led by tonight's guest, Congressman Charles Rangel, and may signal the former president's readiness to jump back into the public eye and back into politics.

But how will he be received? Will the American people give Bill Clinton a new start? Or will his message always be overshadowed by Monica Lewinsky, Charlie Trie and Marc Rich -- Tucker?

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Let's hope so. Congressman, Bill Clinton, even for him, said something pretty bold today. He said, "I moved to Harlem because I wanted to be in the middle of a federal empowerment zone." But, as you know, he moved there because there was terrible PR debacle. He wanted to go to the Carnegie Towers at 700 Grand a year, and you convinced him to come to Harlem, his second choice. Isn't that true?

REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: Well, some of the best marriages are second choices.

(LAUGHTER)

RANGEL: And I think I'm one, you know, so...

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: Stop right there. Lindsey, let me ask -- Congressman Graham, if I may ask you, doesn't it drive you crazy that you keep trying to kill this guy and you just can't get him? He just keeps coming back.

REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Yes, and I hope he comes out, I hope he keeps talking. He made me. I owe him a lot.

(LAUGHTER)

GRAHAM: Without Bill Clinton, there'd be no me. He took -- 2,000 people changed parties during his time. When he first got elected, there were Democrats as far as you can see. Now we're in the majority party. Keep talking, Bill.

CARLSON: Now, Congressman, let's talk about Bill Clinton...

RANGEL: ... just wish we the had the vote counters that he had in Florida...

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Now, wait a minute. One scandal at a time here, Congressman.

RANGEL: When I introduced him, I said, "this is the last elected president we've had."

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Wait a second. Let's talk about Bill Clinton's second wife here, as you described his office. It's in Harlem, but it's not like a store front or something. I mean, this is an office with a shower and 10 staff overlooking Central Park. It still costs $354,000 a year. Bill Clinton's a rich guy. "The Washington Post" reports he has a million dollars in his checking account. He's given 40 speeches this year at 125 grand a pop. Why is the federal government paying for this office? He can afford it.

RANGEL: Well, we do it for all of our presidents, and he continues -- to be an -- has an international presence and a national presence. And of course, if the property wasn't worth that, we would increase the price just to have some class.

(LAUGHTER) CARLSON: I agree with you, and it's sadly true, he does have a national and international presence, but so does Donald Trump. And why is the federal government paying this rich guy for a big office?

RANGEL: They do it for Ronald Reagan, and he's sick. They do it for President Bush, and -- I don't know where he is. But it's something that comes with the office, that we don't want our presidents just to remove themselves.

I mean, there's a lot of wisdom that comes from the office, and the president is still involved in the Middle East, involved in the peace conferences in Dublin, involved in United Nations, as you probably heard in the speech. Involved in domestic affairs here, to the point that what he said was, he wanted to be an empowerment zone so that can he empower urban communities, rural areas, Indian reservations to have an extension of his presidential career.

PRESS: Congressman Graham, I mean, the president has certainly had his bad moments. Marc Rich being the latest...

GRAHAM: Well, you shouldn't be down on him for a few slips. I mean, come on.

PRESS: I'm not. I mean, I'm not the one who is. But despite some of those, "The Washington Post" yesterday -- Sunday, had a piece about the fact that the president is ready to come back, reengage more into public life. And I quoted a poll by a Democratic pollster...

GRAHAM: By his pollster.

PRESS: Actually, by his pollster. Doesn't say it's wrong -- which shows that American people are saying, well, which of these two presidents do you like? Look at it. Bill Clinton, 48 percent. Bush, 36 percent. I mean, don't you find it embarrassing that Bill Clinton, with all his faults, is better loved by the American people than George Bush with all his spin?

GRAHAM: We're still talking about Clinton, and the first thing we're going to talk about is whether or not the poll done by his pollster should be believed. The reason he's in Harlem is because when he went to mid-town at 800,000, people just went nuts. We should support our ex-presidents. He will be on the world stage.

But he's in Harlem because the deal that he wanted blew up in his face, so he moves and he turns a bad thing into a good thing, Charlie's out there hugging him -- "I'm with you, I love you, I've always wanted to be here." You know, the guy is as phony as a $3 bill, but he has a certain charm, and I'll be glad to talk about his legacy as long as I'm alive.

RANGEL: ... that you said about the 2:00 in the morning. You have to admit that Bill Clinton made you...

GRAHAM: Oh, listen, I'll tell you.

RANGEL: What was that you said... GRAHAM: Where I come from, if a man's calling a woman at 2:30 in the morning, he's up to no good.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: Well, let's not go back...

GRAHAM: When's the last time you got a call at 2:30? Have I got good news?

PRESS: I say the man has his faults. We all know what they are. But here's what I want to ask you. Who do you got? Who do you have that comes anywhere close in your party to Bill Clinton in terms of articulating the issues, in terms of smarts, in terms of vision, in terms of campaigner and public speaker -- who do you got? And if you tell me George W. Bush, I'm going to laugh out loud.

GRAHAM: What we do have is we have a majority in the House. We have a majority in the House, and without Bill Clinton, we wouldn't have a majority in the House.

PRESS: Name one person who can stand...

GRAHAM: President Bush is president today because people are desiring to start over big time after Clinton. He's a gifted communicator, but most people don't believe him or trust him.

PRESS: You don't have anybody that comes close, do you?

GRAHAM: In terms of being able to talk to folks, he's very gifted. But I think we've got a lot of people that can tell you the truth in our party.

CARLSON: He's been enough to help the Republicans. Now, Congressman, you obviously were there when Clinton was speaking today. He talked about all the different groups he going to help out. I wasn't aware, as you point out, that he's going to help Indian reservations, but it makes sense. He says he's going to help cure poverty in the world and cure AIDS, and bring us together as a community. Not just in Harlem, but around the world, and the country...

RANGEL: Yes, he said all those things.

CARLSON: Basically, he's doing what he always does. He's bragging about himself. So either you have -- Bill Clinton is either running for office again, or he's compulsive self-aggrandizer.

RANGEL: Which is -- I think it's legitimate to brag when you got it. You know, there's nothing wrong with self-esteem, if you're good. And he has more than his share.

CARLSON: Well, it gets to a clinical stage at some point, don't you think?

RANGEL: Not as longing as it's working for him. GRAHAM: Well, be an advocate for safe sex is probably a good role for him.

RANGEL: Well, being an advocate is something which you Republicans don't know about, but for Social Security, for Medicare, for helping old folks with prescription drugs, for having a decent education to make this great country all that she can be, the empowerment zone sets a classic example. And he said he wasn't doing it just for Harlem. He was doing it for the Harlems around the country.

Now, this man can have a meeting and bring the heads of multinational companies together. They will come if he calls. When he goes to the United Nations, he is just as popular there as he is in the United States. so he commands the respect of people -- not necessarily politically motivated people here, but around the world, he demands respect. And so when he focuses attention and brings together the resources that are there -- like he spoke today about a marriage between the private sector and the public school system, how they needed each other. How the corporate world needed qualified workforces.

CARLSON: I understand. By why the focus on himself? When a politician gets up and starts talking about what a great job he's done for the people, you understand that, because you say, gee, he's got to run again. Bill Clinton is not running again, unless you know something we don't know.

RANGEL: Well, he said some nice things about me, I mean...

CARLSON: Well, I know...

RANGEL: That didn't...

CARLSON: Why is he talking about himself still?

RANGEL: What do we talk about when we talk except ourselves? It's a part of his job.

GRAHAM: I mean, if you're going to get rid of people that talk about themselves in politics, there'd be none of us left.

CARLSON: But he's not in politics anymore.

RANGEL: He isn't, but...

GRAHAM: I want to agree with Charlie...

RANGEL: You don't have to an elective office. This guy was born to be a politician, he's good at it. What you mean is, he doesn't hold elective office. but i wouldn't bet that he's not going to be the comeback kid.

PRESS: You know, I want to -- just for the benefit of all of our viewers who, like us, were not at the ceremony today or watching it all day on television. I'd just like to play a little clip of what the president said about what he wants to do, in terms of economic development and AIDS -- two of the issues you touched on -- and get your reaction, Congressman. Here he is, President Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: What I'm going to do here is to try to help promote economic opportunity in our backyard, around our country and around the world. To try to help people to work against AIDS and other diseases and ignorance, and for education in our backyard and around the world. To try to help people make a community out of all this crazy diversity we've got here in our backyard, around the state, around the country and around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Now, I don't really think he's bragging about himself, but if he can make a difference in getting some funding, in getting some attention to this epidemic of AIDS, if he can make a difference in building communities with economic development -- go, go, go, right?

GRAHAM: I hope the president and his post-presidential life can be constructive. If he can bring people together and do all the things that he's talked about, that would be a good thing. I believe that Bill Clinton is trying to redefine his legacy more about him than anybody else. The Mideast, the problems we have in the Mideast now were, I think, a direct result of a guy seeking a legacy beyond impeachment, trying to get two parties to come together too fast.

But if can -- if he can bring people together and do something about AIDS, I applaud him for that.

PRESS: Well, let me ask you this about the Middle East. What would you rather have, a president actively trying to bring people together to stop the fighting, or a president who sits on his behind while people are killing each other more than they ever have and doesn't lift a finger?

GRAHAM: The reason we have an explosion in the Mideast is Bill Clinton wanted a legacy beyond impeachment, to the point that the two parties were put in a position where they couldn't deliver. And now you've got a mess on your hands, and people are cleaning it up. The Bush presidency is going to clean up the mess that Bill Clinton left us, in many ways. That will be Bush's legacy, to bring honor and dignity back to an office that was sold.

CARLSON: Mr. Graham, Mr. Rangel, we will be back to continue to talk about the legacy of Bill Clinton. And as we go out, here is the former president, not talking about himself, but singing with one of our guests tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Clinton!

GROUP (singing): Stand by me, stand by me. Stand by me... (END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. You knew we couldn't stay away long, and you were right!

Six months after leaving office, Bill Clinton is back in the news. The former president opened his new office in Harlem today. He was greeted by adoring crowds. But from a distance, there was criticism. Before he reenters public life, some asked, shouldn't he explain his pardons of Marc Rich and others? Is America ready for Bill Clinton's second act?

Joining us, Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York, a Democrat who spent much of the day with the former president, and Congressman Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, a Republican who did not -- Bill?

PRESS: Actually, I think this is the third or fourth act, but who's counting? Congressman Graham, as Tucker indicated at the top of the show, Harlem may not have been President Clinton's first choice, but it certainly is his best choice. As he said today, he feels right at home, and he should. In 1996, Bill Clinton got 84 percent of the African-American vote in this country, and last year Al Gore got 90 percent of the African-American vote.

But isn't that because this president, Bill Clinton, did more for African-Americans than any president since Lyndon Johnson?

GRAHAM: I think part of it was that a lot of African-Americans saw Bill Clinton a victim of maybe zealots like me. I don't know, I can't explain it. I know as a party, we have to do better, and the president has a great following among African-Americans. And those are the political facts. I'd like to change that if I could at home in South Carolina, to be better thought of among the African-American community, but I have my work caught out for me.

PRESS: You mean when you run for senator in South Carolina...

GRAHAM: Yes, every 50 years we change senators at home.

(LAUGHTER)

PRESS: But, Congressman, I'd like to blame it all on you, the reason African-Americans voted for Bill Clinton. But maybe it's because if you look at the issues and if you look at jobs and if you look at health care and if you look at housing, and if you look at public education and Medicare and Social Security and minimum wage, the Democrats have been there for African-Americans on these issues, and the Republican Party has not.

GRAHAM: What is Bill Clinton's legacy? We balanced the budget during the eight years that he was there. There will be two versions of how we did that. I will say we had the checkbook as the Republican Party during the last six years, and that's the reason we balanced the budget. Are people better off? Yes, they are. We cut taxes. He raised taxes. There will be a great debate about how the country prospered and who is to get credit for what.

But the truth is, you can say this about President Clinton. During that eight-year period there was a lot of fussing and fighting. The country held together. It was a prosperous time. He signed welfare reform, the third time was a charm.

But he deserves some credit, because during his eight years of leadership, we prospered as a nation. I've got my own view about how that occurred, but I'm not here to beat him up. His legacy is going to be evolving.

RANGEL: One thing is clear, though. You talk about the Republican majority, and I think a lot of it has to attributed to the fact that we had the 1993 presidential budget and 54 Democrats lost their seats for voting for it. We passed that budget with not one Republican vote, not one in the House, not one in the Senate. And so, if you want to give him a little credit, balancing the budget meant a sharp tax increase.

GRAHAM: Let me tell you from a political point of view what happened. I wouldn't be here tonight without Bill Clinton. The first two years of Bill Clinton did irreparable damage to the Democratic Party in the South, Charlie. Hillary health care tax increases, guns, gay in the military -- it set the stage for the Republican revolution in '95.

Now, the new Bill Clinton, '95 to '98, was a guy that did triangulation. Him and Dick Morris took our issues and did a better job with them than we did in many ways...

RANGEL: You mean like Bush took our issues?

(LAUGHTER)

GRAHAM: Right. One of his legacies will be triangulation. And our party has adopted it a bit, and I'm not so sure that's a good legacy for us to adopt, but that did happen. From '95 to '98, he became a Republican light, did well politically. And from '98 to 2000, it was all about impeachment, so there's three legacies in one...

RANGEL: But couldn't have balanced the budget without the tax increase.

GRAHAM: Charlie, the reason we're out of debt is not because we taxed our way out of debt. The reason we're out of debt is we had the check book for a six-year period, we spent less money, we cut taxes, we revitalized the economy, we've been good stewards of the taxpayers' dollars. And I have enjoyed working with you, but without us there would be no balanced budget.

RANGEL: Take a look the stock market before and after.

GRAHAM: It was at 1,400 in '95.

RANGEL: I know, but we've been so much better... CARLSON: Let's talk about the real legacies here, which, of course, are the scandals. Now, when Clinton...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: They are the real legacies, and I'll tell you why. Clinton, when he got in trouble, used religious language almost invariably. So now you have today his rebirth, or the beginning of his rebirth, right? But in order to have a rebirth, you have to repent. In order to repent, you have to confess, and Bill Clinton has yet to do that with the Marc Rich scandal.

He has yet to explain why he did it, under what circumstances he did it. The best he's done is this ridiculous "New York Times" op-ed that left nobody better informed. Doesn't he have an obligation to explain why he pardoned this character?

RANGEL: You know, has CROSSFIRE now become a gospel show where repentance now is a qualification?

CARLSON: Bill Clinton uses that language every time.

RANGEL: I mean, from politicians? I mean, what's happening to CROSSFIRE?

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON: Bill Clinton is the one who used that language, though. You know that's true.

RANGEL: Listen, then I'm sorry for Bill Clinton, if that's we're into. You know, we hear he's out, and you saw the reception that he got. The guy has made mistakes and he's admitted that he's made mistakes, and he's moving on. In other words, he is trying to get a new life, and it's something that's recommended for those who miss him. You miss him, don't you?

CARLSON: Wait a second. Wait a second, Congressman, you're talking about Bill Clinton taking a role on the public stage. Now, he -- this wasn't about Bill Clinton. It was about the use of the federal power, the federal government to let felons off the hook. He did something with our power, the people's power. He ought to explain why.

RANGEL: If it's going to make me a better public official, then I'll go immediately and ask for all past presidents to explain each and every pardon to the American people...

CARLSON: No, just one. Just one.

RANGEL: Why? What happens to the ones before? What about Bush and Reagan? I mean, they haven't explained it either.

CARLSON: Yes, they have.

PRESS: Oh, be careful. RANGEL: Bush and Reagan? We don't want to get you opening up Pandora's Box. I mean, first of all, pardons are for guilty people. Pardons -- you don't look for alter boys to pardon.

CARLSON: But there's usually a justification for it.

RANGEL: Yes, but we never find out...

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: But you don't pardon someone before they go to trial. Pardons are for guilty people who have been punished. Marc Rich was never -- he left the country. He's a fugitive from justice, and he got pardoned. That's the big deal.

PRESS: The Marc Rich pardon was a bum deal, and so were most of the pardons of George H. Bush.

CARLSON: Oh, right, OK! So they're all the same.

PRESS: I want to ask you about -- let's get back to subject of this hour. "The Washington Post" reports this morning that all of these environmental regulations, particularly, that Former President Clinton left in place, and the Republicans right away said they're going to undo them all. Most of them had to do with protecting national parks. How many air fights over national parks, snowmobiles, all these different things.

GRAHAM: He puts into place environmental regulations in the last six weeks of an eight-year presidency, land mines for Bush. It's all politically driven. The Kyoto Treaty was voted down 95 to nothing in the Senate.

PRESS: Let me ask a question first, Congressman. We're not talking about Kyoto. We're talking about your right, the environmental regs that were put in, including arsenic...

GRAHAM: The last six weeks of his presidency.

PRESS: Bush has already moved on that. My question is this: "The Post" reports this morning that all those leftover environmental regulations, as the Republican Party were going to try to undo, they said now they're going to leave in place. Now, my question to you is, there are two things going on here. Either they don't have the juice to overturn them, or they finally have waken up to say you know, Bill Clinton was right.

GRAHAM: There's one thing that's going on here that's been consistent during the time I've known Bill Clinton: that he does things for political reasons. These standards were changed in the last weeks of the presidency to give George Bush a problem. Now, if Bush wants to look at them and adopt some and reject others, that's being a good president. I hope that's what he'll do.

PRESS: With arsenic, being a good president? GRAHAM: The arsenic standards that were imposed by Bill Clinton had nothing to do with science. It was all politically driven. I hope what standard we come up with will be good for local government, state government so they comply -- be good for the consumer. This guy cares more about politics than anything in his life.

RANGEL: That "Post" story said that the rejections were politically inspired by the Republicans.

PRESS: All right, gentlemen, we have to go. Thank you for coming in. Bill Clinton is back, and you are back. Congressman Lyndsey Graham, Congressman Charlie Rangel, thank you for being here.

Tucker Carlson and I will come back and tell you what we think the former president should be doing with his second coming. Closing comments coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Well, Tucker, I only have a few things to say. No. 1: I'm glad he's back. I have missed him. And No. 2: Watch out, W! Bill is back.

CARLSON: You know, it's funny, Bill. Having had six months to really think about this, to decide what I like least about Bill Clinton: was it the sleazy personal behavior, the lying, the vicious political style?

No, it was none of that. That's -- that's the essence of what I disliked, the constantly talking about all the things he's done, he's going to do, what a great guy he is, how American ought to be grateful to have him -- it's nauseating.

PRESS: But you know what? When somebody has done so much, I think it's fair to point it out.

CARLSON: Mother Teresa didn't talk like that! Nobody has a right to talk that way.

PRESS: Wait a second. I want to repeat what Lindsey Graham said tonight. If you toss out of Washington all of the politicians that talk about themselves, this would be a ghost town. It comes with the territory.

CARLSON: Yes, but it comes with the territory of running for office, but he's not running for office. So now it becomes a case study for a shrink to discuss, because there's no reason for it.

PRESS: It comes with the territory of being a president who put in eight damn goods years for this country who delivered on the environment, who delivered on the economy, and is watching this country fall apart under this guy!

CARLSON: It's actually pathetic. You don't see any other former president holding press conferences to celebrate himself. Bill Clinton has to for deeper, sadder reasons. PRESS: They have nothing to say.

CARLSON: Right.

PRESS: From the left, I'm Bill Press. Welcome back, Bill! Good night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: On the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE. See you then.

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