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CNN Crossfire

The Political Week in Review

Aired August 03, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Tonight, politicians on the move. President Bush is set to head out of Washington. President Clinton heads back onto center stage, and Congressman Condit heads home to California. The events that shaped the week in politics.

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak. In the CROSSFIRE, former Democratic Congressman Vic Fazio and former Republican Congressman Bill Paxon.

NOVAK: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. President Bush is off to his Texas ranch, and members of Congress also have abandoned Washington for the rest of the summer, taking off the whole month of August.

So, the newly famous Gary Condit is back in California. Will he answer constituents' questions? The House of Representatives actually quit last night, leaving the Democratic-controlled Senate with a fait accompli. Take the House Republican bill on farm aid, or take nothing at all. They took the Republican bill.

That followed House passage of President Bush's Patients' Bill of Rights and his energy program. But it's not all sweetness for George W. He lost a federal nomination this week, and this week Bill Clinton reappeared in Harlem. What does that mean for the republic and the Republican Party?

Ace Democratic campaign consultant Bob Shrum is sitting in for Bill Press. Welcome, Bob.

BOB SHRUM, GUEST HOST: Glad to be here, argue with you again, Bob.

We just saw the president, a little clip there, patting himself on the back. Do you think that may be a little bit premature, since these bills, passed by the Republican House, have to go to a conference? And Senator McCain, Senator Edwards, Senator Kennedy are never going to agree to a phony patients' bill of rights that's an HMO bill of rights, and the Senate is never going to agree to allow oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Reserve?

BILL PAXON (R), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: You know, Bob, a week ago a lot of pundits in this town who just don't quite get it were writing off the president, saying he's not going to succeed on energy, he's not going to succeed on patients' bill of rights, he's not going to succeed in his farm bill -- voila. A week later the president -- he had a triple play this week which builds on a number of initiatives he's won on this year. The checks are arriving in the mail.

The American people see a person in public office who's keeping his promises and his commitments. There's a new tone, a clear agenda and a real vision coming from this administration. I think that's the reason the poll numbers that are out are just shocking everyone here, because again, they don't get it in Washington, the country does -- they like what they see. This is a president who has character, integrity. He's a commander in chief who looks and acts that way, getting nearly 60, 70 percent approval in these numbers.

(LAUGHTER)

SHRUM: You know, there is an inning coming on the other side, Bill.

NOVAK: Vic, boiling down what Congressman Paxon said a little bit, you have to admit, as a fair person, that it was the inside dope at the Palm restaurant and places like that, this president was being buried. They were having little funeral services all over town, and the bars where you rich lobbyists hang out.

But isn't it true that he has made a remarkable recovery? That this is about as good a first six months as any president that we can remember has had?

VIC FAZIO (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I wouldn't go that far, Bob. I think he left on a higher note than he had been on here before. But some of these victories, I think are Pyrrhic victories. For example, this farm bill that was listed as one of the three leaves aside the needs of a lot of farmers across the country. I was talking to people in Washington state and Michigan today who are livid that they didn't get the provisions that the Senate had agreed to, and the farm bill because the president wouldn't take the one that little was a little bit more expensive.

On the whole patients' bill of rights issue, though, it is just about to hit him that he's made a deal with one man, Charlie Norwood. He has not made a deal with John McCain. He has not really faced the Senate, which feels very differently about this issue. And while I give the president an A for effort, because he did personally get involved, and that made a real difference, he's really turned off the Democrats in the House. I mean, I've never seen the bitterness. This is the kind of victory that becomes a Pyrrhic victory.

SHRUM: While the president says he's doing great, the best poll for him, "The Washington Post"-ABC poll only gives him a two-point lead in a hypothetical race with Al Gore. And I think -- let's put up this question and take a look at it.

Sixty-seven percent of people in "The Washington Post"-ABC poll think large corporations have too much influence with Bush. Only 7 percent say too little. Oil and gas industry: 64 percent too much influence, only 13 percent say too little. The wealthy: 72 percent say too much influence, only 5 percent say too little.

Now, I know Novak's in the five percent, but most people aren't. And when George Bush pushes oil drilling in Alaska, opposes a real patients' bill of rights, opposes the minimum wage increase, which he's going to do next month -- isn't that going to hurt him over time and hurt the Republicans, and isn't that why today in that same poll, 67 percent of respondents say that the Bush administration doesn't care about or serve people like them?

PAXON: Yes, let me quote you some other numbers that you failed to mention in that same poll. Almost 70 percent grade the president as having strong personal character. Seventy percent, almost, say that he is a strong commander in chief. Nearly 70 percent, a vision for the future of this country.

And what's most interesting -- on all the major indices he consistently leads the Congressional Democrats, including on the issue of education, which used to be a democrat issue and he's taken away from them. You know what I think we have here? We have a president who's leading, who's providing real leadership on the issues that in six months he's accomplished, that in six years Bill Clinton couldn't do, on energy, on patient protection, on education, on tax relief. You go down the list and check them off one after the other after the other.

Of course, we're not done. Some of these issues have been completed and were successful -- tax relief, some have a ways to go. But you know what? You couldn't get to the end if you don't make this next hurdle, and every one he's made.

SHRUM: Well, let's look at that House Republicans HMO Bill of Rights, as I call it. One, it weakens existing state protections, including the Texas Patients' Bill of Rights that Bush pretended he was for during the campaign. Two, it creates a presumption in most of the cases that go into court in favor of the HMO and against the patient.

Now, you put on top of that no money in this budget for a real prescription drug benefit under Medicare, limiting the amount of money for education, oil drilling in Alaska -- aren't people fair to conclude that what we have here is a guy who may have some personal attributes, but he's giving us a government of the oil companies, by the HMOs that financed his campaign and for the big drug companies?.

(LAUGHTER)

You know, it's just absolutely fascinating that you just, and the Democrats, just don't get it. The poll numbers are reflective of a president who the American people like what they see. They see a president who stands on principle, who reaches out for bipartisanship. He's built unique coalitions. The energy bill, by the way, was supported by your usual coalition, organized labor, who sees job opportunities in producing more domestic sources of energy so we don't rely on Middle East sources of energy. I think that's a positive step forward. I think the American people like that. They like to see somebody who tackles his issues. For six long years, nothing happened on energy. Six long years, nothing on patient protection, on tax relief, on all these issues -- education...

(CROSSTALK)

FAZIO: That's because you guys wouldn't pass any of those bills. That's what happened, Bill.

PAXON: What was Bill Clinton's energy bill? He never put one forward.

FAZIO: The Patients' Bill of Rights, Bill. Why didn't you pass Patients' Bill of Rights? Why didn't you pass it?

NOVAK: Because it was a different bill, that's why.

Vic Fazio, we've had a lot of poll numbers from this "Washington Post" poll, but I'm going to give you a very simple poll, and that is: approve or disapprove, that's a thing we usually do. About this time in his first year, before he started to fade, Bill Clinton was at about 39 percent. But President Bush, 59 percent approve, 38 percent disapprove. Now, this is by a president who got 48 percent of the popular vote, who a lot of people, including your loudmouth Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe, says isn't the real president. I hear people getting up on the House floor saying he isn't the real president. People like him, don't they?

FAZIO: Well, you know, I don't think people really know him very well yet, but I think as time goes on, they're going to be judging him in a far more critical way than they are at the moment.

For example, we're about to have some really devastating revenue projections announced. This president, when he comes back to meet the Congress full-floor in September, is going to have some very tough appropriation bills to pass. The members up there waving their $600 rebates around today have to admit we're borrowing the money in order to make those rebates. We're going to be cutting into Medicare trust fund money because we won't be able to pass appropriation bills, even those that Republicans would pass out of House, unless we do.

NOVAK: Now, Jack Kennedy borrowed a lot more money to have a tax cut.

FAZIO: Well, let me tell you, Jack, this tax -- Jack, yeah.

NOVAK: Bob. It's all right.

FAZIO: ... cut is going to come back to haunt the president on a whole range of issues.

NOVAK: People really hate those tax cuts.

(LAUGHTER)

FAZIO: Including the education bill, which he has not yet brought home because he won't pay for.

NOVAK: But, Vic Fazio, I want to talk to you just a second about the Patients' Bill of Rights, which you say that he made a one-man deal with Charles Norwood. In 1999, the last time this thing came up in the House, Patients' Bill of Rights, do you know how many Republicans voted for it? It was 68.

FAZIO: There were 60-some, yeah.

NOVAK: Sixty-eight. And that included Henry Hyde, it included Bob Barr, it included a lot of conservative Republicans.

FAZIO: We're going to pay the price for it, not voting for it again.

NOVAK: Mr. Norwood brought them back. and the reason is, that all the things they want, like access to emergency rooms and the ability to stand up for your own rights. They're in this bill. What they're not is the fat trial lawyers, who are the most important special interest of the Democratic Party -- they don't have a free -- that's what you're upset about, isn't it?

FAZIO: You know when I think most Democrats are going to be upset about is the fact that those 10 states laws, in the dead of night, without any prior discussion or hearing, were overridden by a federal law. And I don't think all of that's going to stand. If it is something the president won't compromise on, he will bear the burden of killing this version of patients' bill of rights, because it's not going to emerge from conference. That's what I understand from Republicans, including John McCain, who voted with Democrats...

NOVAK: He doesn't have -- he doesn't have...

FAZIO: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 59 Senate votes are not going to change overnight on this compromise that Charlie Norwood...

NOVAK: He doesn't have a bad bill that he'd have to veto, though. Isn't that...

SHRUM: No, he has a bad bill that's going to get changed, and he's going to have to decide whether to veto a good bill. Look, I'm not going to go after Bob's inaccuracies. Normally, you know, he quotes John Zogby as a pollster and says 51 percent disapprove of the job President Bush is doing. And the fact is lawyers, for example, gave more money to Bush than they did to Gore.

PAXON: Bob, you should know that's not...

(CROSSTALK)

... say something. You're talking about polls. The polls have been consistent and steady throughout this Bush administration. He has had good strong numbers throughout, and the reason, again, is because he's showing consistent, steady leadership.

SHRUM: I want to -- I want to go to substance for a minute and go to stem cell research. George W. Bush says he's studying the issue, and studying it and studying it and studying it. Maybe he reads slow. How long are we going to have to wait? And is he reading the writings of Thomas Aquinas or the political memos of Karl Rove? What's going to happen on stem cell research?

PAXON: I think he's doing again what the American people expect out of a strong, visionary American leader: that studying this very important issue that involves morality, ethics, science. You know, the former administration would simply go out and take a poll and go in terms of the way poll showed, you know, the feelings be. This president...

(CROSSTALK)

SHRUM: Well, if you put Karl Rove -- if you put Karl Rove in charge of this issue, let me tell you, he's taking a poll.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: It's better -- it's better than Karl Marx.

(LAUGHTER)

SHRUM: That's a small claim, Bob, and I'll accept that. But I wish he was reading Thomas Aquinas and Karl Jaspers instead.

NOVAK: All right. We're going to have to take a break, and when we come back, we'll examine the reappearance of Bill Clinton and the marked change in the appearance of Al Gore.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHRUM: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. I'm Bob Shrum, sitting in for Bill Press on the left. But we're not the only thing that's back. Bill Clinton is back. Al Gore is coming back. And of course, Gary Condit's going back to California, presumably taking all the TV trucks with him.

And with us tonight to discuss the political roundup as Congress closes up for August are two ex-members who were two of the best members -- I don't want to get them in trouble -- Republican Bill Paxon of New York and Democrat Vic Fazio of California -- Bob.

NOVAK: Vic Fazio, your leader, Bill Clinton, reappeared out of the tides in Harlem to open his office. He had a platoon of saxophone players. It was just a wonderful experience. I think some networks actually cut into a Bush speech to put him on the air.

Do you feel comfortable as a practical Democrat having him once again sucking up the oxygen as the -- as the headless Democratic Party wanders around the country?

FAZIO: Well, you know, he is a great communicator, a bit like President Reagan. And you see him and you put him up against our incumbent president, and I think people see a real difference. I think people generally are going to be glad to have Bill Clinton back. (LAUGHTER)

I think the Democratic Party will benefit by having him involved in our fund-raising activities, but I don't think anybody should think that Bill Clinton is the future of our party. I think that's...

NOVAK: You hope not anyway.

FAZIO: ... to be determined by a field of pretty competitive people who would like to be our nominee next.

NOVAK: Well, let's talk about one person who is the future of the party, and that's Hillary Clinton. And she's -- she has (UNINTELLIGIBLE). She has been busy all year with a mean-spirited attack on an incumbent member of the Consumer Products Safety Commission, Mary Gall.

FAZIO: Sheila Gall.

NOVAK: Sheila Gall. And she got her defeated in committee by a party-line vote, just a mean character assassination by Hillary. And I'd like to have you hear what John McCain says about that, not exactly the most partisan of Republicans.

FAZIO: You've got to quote him when you can, Bob.

NOVAK: Let's listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: It is clearly not just a defeat for the president and those of us who know and support Ms. Gall, but it's a defeat for the process. The president of the United States should have the right to appoint members of his team unless there is an overriding issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Now, I would like you to do something that's seldom done on CROSSFIRE. I would like you to transcend petty partisan politics and say I'm ashamed of Hillary Clinton and I agree with John McCain.

FAZIO: In no way, shape or form am I ashamed of Hillary Clinton, nor are the Democrats, who voted to keep this woman from ascending to the chairmanship. She could remain on the commission, if that's what the president wants. But her record over 10 years is replete with examples of where she refuses to step in...

NOVAK: She was confirmed on that record before.

FAZIO: That was a deal in order to get Ms. Brown the chairmanship.

NOVAK: Oh...

FAZIO: They went along in a bipartisan manner to make that happen. But Bob, this woman doesn't deserve to lead an agency that we entrust with the lives of our children.

NOVAK: So disappointed, Vic.

SHRUM: You know, I think that's right. It's not the Consumer Products Nonsafety Commission. But you can't seem to stop attacking Bill and Hillary Clinton. I assume you can't either.

Let's look at Bill Clinton's record. A lot of it, by the way, I'll specify bipartisan, done in cooperation with Congress.

The economic package, which not one Republican voted for, welfare reform, which was bipartisan, crime bill, minimum wage increases, college aid, major civil rights advances.

You sit her tonight and you celebrate George Bush for passing a bad tax cut and having two bad bills that are going to be stuck in a conference committee. Don't you think in fairness it's time to admit President Clinton did a real good job as president of the United States?

(LAUGHTER)

PAXON: Oh, I would agree with that -- sure, Bob. Listen, let's go back and revisit...

SHRUM: Good, we're done.

(LAUGHTER)

PAXON: Let's go back and revisit the real history. Welfare reform, he vetoed it twice before...

SHRUM: Until he got a good bill. Until he got a good bill.

PAXON: It was the same -- it was the same bill.

SHRUM: It was not the same bill.

PAXON: It was the same bill. He vetoed it twice before public opinion forced him to change the vote against the opinion of a lot of Democrats in Congress, who were furious.

The tax increase bill that he passed and the budget bill he passed did not balance the budget. It was the Republicans that passed the five-year balanced budget plan against Bill Clinton, against his interests. He fought it. The Democrats were upset by what he did all the way along.

Look, Bill Clinton, his presidency is over. Thank God. This whole relaunch is much ado about not much. The president -- the former president got off to two false starts. He had the pardon scandal and then he had the office rent brouhaha. So I'm glad he's finally got it right.

SHRUM: On, on and on and on.

PAXON: I'm very pleased that he now has an office to write his memoirs in.

SHRUM: You won't even take yes for an answer. I said a lot of it was bipartisan. You do deserve credit on the welfare bill, because the Congress and the president worked together and it became a good bill.

PAXON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) bill finally.

SHRUM: And by the way -- and by the way, that economic package, as you know, came in at a point where there was a $300 billion deficit from the first President Bush.

But look, why can't you just step back and say, as most of the American people believe, that whatever his party and whatever your problems with him, Bill Clinton was a really good president for this country. We had record...

(CROSSTALK)

PAXON: I could not -- not only couldn't I agree, again, the way he left office was indicative of the way he served. The pardon scandal and then the office (UNINTELLIGIBLE) brouhaha, were just two of the most recent examples of kind of president we had. And by the way, Bob, it's the reason that George Bush is getting -- one of the reasons that he's getting such high marks: Because he has character, he has integrity, he is a strong visionary leader who stands a principle and it really does contrast with the previous eight years.

SHRUM: Seventy percent of the country thinks he is for the special interests.

NOVAK: Vic Fazio I have bad news for you. I have to ask one Gary Condit question. Your colleague on the California delegation, and I would like to you listen to what a third California Democrat has to say about him -- I'm sorry, we don't have a sound byte on it. It's Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, and she says, "Congressman Condit's failure to come forward and to be fully candid combined with the conduct involved, really does violate the public trust and affects his integrity and credibility as a legislator."

Agree or disagree?

FAZIO: Well, I think, Gary has dug a deep hole for himself, but I think the people in his district are going to make the determination as to whether he comes back or not. I think that decision is still out there to be made. We don't know what happened to this unfortunate young woman. We don't know if there is any role apparently -- at the moment -- we don't of any specific role that Gary Condit had in her disappearance.

I think people are going to judge Gary still on the future as well as the recent past. He is going back to his district. He is going to be in touch with his family, which he obviously needs to be. He is going to meet with his constituents later on this summer. I think the jury is still out. The people of his district will ultimately makes a decision. NOVAK: Congressman Fazio, there have been some reports that Al Gore, since his defeat had been on a witness protect program of the FBI and has a secret identity, and this was pretty well confirmed when we received a video of an appearance a couple weeks ago in Spain and he has grown a beard now.

Now, Robert George of "The New York Post" says he looks like he's running for president of Serbia in that picture. Do you think, thinking outside the box, Congressman, that perhaps if he had that stubble on he could have won Florida and been the current president?

FAZIO: I think he did win in Florida, Bob. That's the point. The question of whether it will ever be validated is another issue, but what I hope will come out of that, frankly, is something that is one of those other unmentioned issues that you don't cite when you talk about this Congress. They haven't dealt with the voting rights fiasco in Florida.

NOVAK: I was talking about Al Gore. How did we get...

(LAUGHTER)

FAZIO: They haven't dealt with campaign finance reform. When do we get back to those issues?

(CROSSTALK)

SHRUM: Wait a minute. Wait a minute, don't you think it's only fair, I want to say one thing about this beard. Doesn't it seem only fair for Al Gore to be wearing a beard when George Bush is going around disguised as the duly elected president?

NOVAK: All right, that is your sound byte. We are out of time. Thank you very much, Vic Fazio. Thank you, Bill Paxon. And Mr. Shrum and I will be back to put this in real political perspective in closing comments in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Make sure to join me and Mark Shields this Saturday at 5:30 as we interview Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson on "EVANS, NOVAK, HUNT AND SHIELDS."

Bob Shrum, I don't know if you saw our mutual friend, Dick Gephardt, on the floor of House yesterday. I thought he was going to have a heart attack or a stroke, he was so upset. He was yelling. It was terrible. They had made a compromise on not everything they wanted to give away to the fact of trial lawyers who fill your campaigns.

Aren't the Democrats in danger of being a parody of themselves? Don't you think they ought on cool it during this week of August?

SHRUM: I welcome this debate. I think it's great for us. I think people are going to figure out, Bob, that all that is happening here is that the HMOs, the insurance companies poured huge amounts of money into the Bush campaign and they are trying to take away the rights of patients, and give more rights to HMOs and insurance companies.

NOVAK: Did you like Dick Gephardt screaming on the floor of the house yesterday.

SHRUM: I think Dick Gephardt was eloquent on the floor of the House and I think he was absolutely right. From the left, I'm Bob Shrum. Good night from crossfire.

NOVAK: From the right I'm Robert Novak. Join us next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE!

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