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CNN Crossfire

Should Gary Condit Face Criminal Charges?

Aired August 28, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: A son comes to his father's defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAD CONDIT, GARY CONDIT'S SON: Somebody has to say enough is enough.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A friend says some not-so-friendly words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: I am disheartened that Congressman Condit did not speak out more quickly, or more fully.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: And Anne Marie Smith takes some unusual legal steps.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNE MARIE SMITH: He asked me to lie. And if I hadn't had an attorney, I would have perjured myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight: The latest on Gary Condit's troubles.

Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left: Bill Press. On the right: Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, former White House special counsel Lanny Davis, and in Atlanta, Republican Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. Just when you thought things couldn't get worse for Gary Condit, they have. During his interview with Connie Chung last week, Condit denied having a relationship with flight attendant Anne Marie Smith. Smith, Condit said, is merely a gold-digger and a publicity hound. Condit may regret those words now. Smith has since done a series of interviews denouncing Condit, and offering proof of their affair.

Her lawyers are now trying to convince a California grand jury to indict the congressman for obstruction of justice. Meanwhile, remaining support for Condit has evaporated. His own governor, fellow Democrat Gray Davis, has joined the pile-on. About the only person defending Gary Condit in public these days: his son, Chad. And even he says his father shouldn't run for reelection. The Levy disappearance becomes the Condit scandal, and mushrooms. How long can Condit hold on? And will he face legal consequences -- Bill.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Congressman Bob Barr, I think we have finally reached the silly season of summer. Let me bring you up to date. In the last 24 hours Anne Marie Smith says she had an affair with Gary Condit. He says he didn't. Anne Marie Smith -- shades of Paula Jones -- says, she can identify distinguishing characteristics of Gary Condit's body parts.

And number three, Anne Marie Smith's attorney has filed an action with a grand jury out in California, asking that they indict Congressman Condit for asking her to tell a lie. Now, Congressman, this makes great talk TV, it makes great talk radio. What does it have to do with finding Chandra Levy?

REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: Well, it has an awful lot to do, I believe, with whether or not the American people are going to insist on certain standards integrity and public decency on behalf of their congressman. You left out two other things, one, number four, in terms of the silly season, Gary Condit now backtracking and arguing over what the definition of "relationship" is.

And also you might pull out your copy of title 18 of the United States Criminal Code and it is a violation of criminal law, you may think it is silly, but it is a violation of criminal law for a person to attempt to persuade another person not to testify or not to provide evidence of criminal wrongdoing to the FBI or rather federal or state law enforcement agencies, Bill.

PRESS: Congressman, that was a wonderful answer, but not to my question, to some other question. I want to come back and ask my question again: this is a case of a missing person. What does any of this sex sideshow have to do with finding Chandra Levy?

BARR: This is not a sex side show. And even you can't hardly say that without slurring over the words. This is a question of whether or not a member of Congress has obstructed justice. Now, this is a problem of Gary Condit's own making. You and others may wish it was simply...

PRESS: Congressman, Chandra Levy -- Chandra Levy.

BARR: ... you and others may wish it was simply about finding Miss Levy, and that is an important, the most important part of all this. But the fact that we have a congressman, who appears to have obstructed justice is of concern to me, and ought to be of concern to you.

CARLSON: Lanny Davis, welcome. Game of you to come. Now that there are lawyers involved, I think there are some people, you may be among them, who, will have the tendency to feel sorry for Gary Condit, so let me remind you this is entirely his fault. During this interview with Connie Chung he denies having affair with Anne Marie Smith. She responds by coming forward with diaries and phone records and gifts that he gave her.

They had an affair. There is no doubt about it. He goes on to savage her, to attack her character on national television. The only time in that entire interview, I might add, that he showed any passion, was when he was beating up on poor Anne Marie Smith, who committed no crime, let me remind you.

So if there is any fault here at all it lies entirely with Gary Condit. No reason to feel sorry for him, true?

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER CLINTON SPECIAL COUNSEL: Well, I don't know if I would feel sorry for Gary Condit at this stage about anything, because I'm concerned about Chandra Levy being found, and I don't think Gary Condit has done anything to help the D.C. police find Chandra Levy, certainly not in the first two months.

Congressman Barr did not answer Bill Press's question, or I think he actually did by acknowledging that while he is focusing on an alleged obstruction of justice, which I think is a questionable suggestion, but at least he is focusing on that, he is not able to connect anything about having affairs with Chandra Levy, unless he is suggesting that because Congressman Condit had affairs, that somehow that is evidence that he might have had something do with disappearance of a missing person.

And even Congressman Barr, who I have known to stretch at times, to try to prove a point, wouldn't make that point.

CARLSON: Wait a second, these are two different branches of the same story here. I don't think -- I find it interesting that Condit supporters all of a sudden are the most vocal about, we need to find Chandra Levy, after months of silence and stonewalling and not helping the authorities. All of a sudden that is the paramount goal when in fact, these are, as I said, two different stories. The question is, did he try and convince Anne Marie Smith to lie in an affidavit? Evidence points to the fact that he did. Why shouldn't be indicted for that?

DAVIS: Well first of all, Tucker, under no circumstances, could I be described as a Condit supporter. I have been out there, quite critical. I'm glad that our minority leader in the House of Representatives has spoken publicly. I haven't heard Speaker Hastert, I haven't heard Tom Delay. I wonder why the overwhelming silence about Congressman Condit's misconduct and not cooperating with the authorities and not taking a lie detector test, I have been out there pretty critical.

But I don't accept any connection between some crusade to outlaw extramarital relationships that Congressman Barr appears to be on, at least with respect to Democrats, but not with respect to his own colleagues. That is what this is about.

(CROSSTALK) CARLSON: Because that is where the offenders are. You go where the offenders are, Lanny Davis.

DAVIS: Adultery is bipartisan, as even Congressman Barr would be likely to admit.

PRESS: All right, Congressman Barr, back to you and I want to come back to this affidavit, because you mentioned this charge about possibly obstructing justice, and remind everybody, this was not from Condit to Anne Marie Smith. This was from Condit's lawyer to her lawyer, asking her that she sign this and thereby denying an affair.

At the top it said "This is just a draft. You can change it, you can edit it, you can do anything you want to it and e-mail it back to me." And she did not sign it. Now, Congressman, last year somebody asked me to tell a lie. You know what I told them, I said no, I won't do it. Can I sue that person? I mean what damage did she possibly suffer? None.

BARR: First of call, Bill, think back to four days ago. The problem here in terms of the civil suit for libel and slander has nothing to do per se with that document. It has to do with Mr. Condit's statement during his interview with Connie Chung, that Miss Smith apparently believes is liable and slanderous. So you may want to get your facts straight.

But secondly, with regard to this whole issue, Lanny is making very, very silly, even for him, charges here. This has nothing to do with me condoning extra marital affairs on behalf of anybody, or criticizing some people. I'm looking at obstruction of justice, the obstruction of justice that goes back several months to Mr. Condit apparently lying to the police about the nature of his relationship, in addition to his lawyers going to Miss Smith -- and lawyers don't just out of the blue wake up one day and say oh, I'm going to draft a document that relates to a congressman having an affair or not having an affair with a woman, not check with the congressman, just run off completely on their own and do this. That is ludicrous and it is irrational to think that is what happened here.

PRESS: Congressman, for you to suggest that they are suing because Gary Condit may have told a lie on television, I mean, talk about being silly. If you start suing everybody that tells a lie on television, Congressman, the courts will really be clogged.

BARR: I'm not the one defending the lawsuit. All I'm saying is that is the essence of it. That -- that Gary Condit accused this woman of seeking financial gain.

PRESS: By the way, I believe they had an fair, so I'm not going to debate that with you. But...

BARR: You're off the hook then.

PRESS: ... I want to come back to her -- to her lawyer, because he is not just stopping this obstruction of justice. I never thought there was anybody who would be willing to go further than you, Bob Barr, until I heard Jim Robinson yesterday...

BARR: No matter how far anyone goes, there is always somebody that will go further, Bill, first rule of politics.

PRESS: Here is what he said at the news conference yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES ROBINSON, ANNE MARIE SMITH'S ATTORNEY: I brought in Judicial Watch. Until two weeks ago I had no contact with Judicial Watch. I don't know Judicial Watch until two weeks ago. This is not a party, this is murder. Murder is not a partisan issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: This is murder? I mean they had an affair, so suddenly this is murder? Wouldn't you have to agree, Bob Barr? That is way over the line.

BARR: Well, again, all I'm talking about, I'm not defending anybody, all I'm saying is that as a sitting member of Congress who has very high regard for this body, I think it is inappropriate for our Ethics Committee not to at least begin an inquiry into whether or not these facts of obstruction are true or not. And I'm very glad to that Charlie Rangel, on CNN two days ago, agreed that there is sufficient evidence, and that the Ethics Committee ought to begin an investigation.

CARLSON: Now, Lanny Davis, for months, as you know, Gary Condit's office denied a report in the "Washington Post" that Chandra Levy had spent the night at Gary Condit's apartment. They actually accused "The Washington Post" of making this up or being wrong, "The Post," to its great credit, stood by the story. What happened here? Well, it turns out we have an explanation, it comes from Abbe Lowell on Sunday. Listen to Abbe Lowell's explanation of how this happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBE LOWELL, CONDIT'S ATTORNEY: Congressman Condit did not tell the staff to go out and lie, Congressman Condit did not authorize those statements to be made. Those staff people spoke about what they hoped was the truth and what they thought was the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Now, I just wonder, especially asking this question of you, Lanny Davis, does this sound familiar, the staff being hung out to dry? It's the staff's fault! The congressman didn't know anything about it. The staff just ran off on their own without authorization. This is ringing bells in my head. What about you?

DAVIS: Abbe Lowell is an old friend of mine. I find that statement on "Meet the Press" absolutely incomprehensible. If he is saying that Gary Condit put his staff out there and deliberately had them lie to protect a relationship from being told, that's one thing. And we have had examples of that in the past, you are right. But we are talking about a missing person investigation, and I hope I don't ruin your reputation, Bob, and I may ruin mine, but I agree with you on this one, that Gary Condit did impede that investigation. From day one, he should have volunteered to the police about the relationship. His failure to do so did cause a delay in being able to develop all that they could find about Chandra Levy's days before her disappearance, and I have never been able to understand why Gary Condit wasn't willing, as soon as he knew that woman had disappeared, to tell the truth voluntarily, that he had the relationship.

CARLSON: Well, let's follow up on something that Bob Barr brought up a moment ago, and that is this affidavit that Anne Marie Smith received, asking -- and the affidavit essentially said, no, I did not have an affair with Gary Condit -- that of course was a false affidavit. Gary Condit's explanation, as you know, is "I had no idea. My lawyers -- renegade lawyers, apparently -- drafted it on their own and sent to it her." You are a lawyer, an eminent lawyer, is this plausible? No.

DAVIS: He's blaming his staff, he's blaming his lawyers. It's amazing to me that the lawyer didn't say, "wait a minute, you knew, Congressman Condit."

But let me go back to this overblown, ridiculous issue. It is not obstruction of justice when there is no case, when there is no connection to the Chandra Levy case, which Bill Press has demonstrated in Congressman Barr's refusal to answer the question. There is no obstruction of justice when there is no administration of justice that is being obstructed.

Sending somebody an affidavit with a note saying "you can change it if you want" when there is no case, as it was in Paula Jones, no connection to an ongoing criminal investigation -- it's completely silly, and for Robinson to associate himself...

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: ... one minute, Bob. For Robinson to associate himself with Larry Klayman and the Judicial Watch, a right-wing, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) funded organization, I have never heard of...

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: They attacked Tom DeLay!

PRESS: Congressman Barr, go ahead, you wanted to jump in.

BARR: Well, the fact is, that there is a lot more to it than simply giving somebody a draft affidavit to feel free to correct, because after all they want a correct affidavit.

The fact is, apparently, that the legal team -- and they were not operating on their own, they had to have been operating with Gary Condit, otherwise they wouldn't have been involved -- they suspected, based on what was coming out in tabloids, that this issue of the congressman having an affair with yet another woman, in addition to the missing lady, was going to come out, and in effort to defuse that and to derail that, they were hoping to get this affidavit showing that he did not have this.

(CROSSTALK)

BARR: It can very well be, because if done in the context of an investigation in which another woman is having an affair and she is missing, it could be obstruction, Lanny.

PRESS: All right, gentlemen, we are going to take a break. When we come back, we'll get away from the question of did he or didn't he, and ask the question: Will he or won't he continue to serve on the House Intelligence Committee? Can Gary Condit be trusted to keep a secret?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. If Congressman Gary Condit thought his troubles would end with last week's media blitz, he was wrong again! A flight attendant has asked the grand jury to indict him, and Dick Gephardt and Gray Davis both slammed him for not being more forthcoming. Can it get any worse? Yes! He could also be tossed off the House Intelligence Committee. Should he?

The Condit watch continues tonight, with Congressman Bob Barr who wants a House Ethics Committee investigation of Condit, and former White House special council Lanny Davis, who just wants the whole mess to go away. I do too -- Tucker.

CARLSON: Now, Lanny, I hate to be coming back to your old pal Abbe Lowell, but frankly it's irresistible. Now, the question in Washington is: Should Condit remain on the House Intelligence Committee? Abbe Lowell thinks he should, and he has an explanation for why. Listen to Abbe Lowell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOWELL: Congressman Condit has shown his ability to hold information. Maybe some people are criticizing him, saying he holds it too well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: This is the greatest explanation I think of the year! Here, Condit had stonewalled with the police, infuriated law enforcement officials because he won't answer a question straight, and this is a qualification to serve on the House Intelligence Committee.

DAVIS: Well, there is spin and then there's spin, so I don't know.

CARLSON: This is overspin!

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Lanny Davis.

DAVIS: Abbe Lowell is a great lawyer, that's my mantra. He has got a difficult client. I wish I knew how much of the advice that Abbe was giving his client was being accepted or rejected, but I don't know.

Look. I think that Congressman Condit should do one thing and one thing only, and that is go to the Levys, with their investigators -- why they are making a distinction between meeting with them or not meeting with them I don't know -- and take an FBI-administered lie detector test. All of the sideshows about whether he had other affairs that nobody has been able to connect to the Chandra Levy investigation have nothing to do with finding that young woman. Bill Press is right.

CARLSON: But listen to what you are saying. You are saying that a sitting member of the House Intelligence Committee is so untrustworthy that he needs to take an FBI-administered lie detector test. This same guy is being protected -- on the committee, anyway -- by Dick Gephardt, who could tomorrow morning, could tonight, make a phone call and boot him off the committee right now.

Why is Dick Gephardt, who has essentially called him a liar in public, keeping him on the House Intelligence Committee? This is negligent behavior, don't you think?

DAVIS: Well, I think what Dick said -- very courageously, because it's a member of his own party and a critical swing seat -- is that he was very disturbed by Gary Condit's lack of candor and he is going to look at the issue of whether he should stay on the Intelligence Committee. Congressman Barr, what has Tom DeLay say publicly? What has Speaker Hastert said publicly about this issue? And why have they been silent?

BARR: Well, I'm disturbed by the silence of almost all members of Congress, Lanny, I don't single any one particular member out.

DAVIS: There has been a silence in the Republican leadership, that is really, very, very obvious to me, and it is a mystery, given Tom DeLay's sanctimonious denunciations of others. Why is he silent about Gary Condit?

BARR: You are reverting to your Clinton days, and that is to attack everybody but the person in the crosshairs, in the crossfire.

DAVIS: Just answer my question, congressman, that's...

(CROSSTALK)

BARR: All right, I'm here to be grilled by the world's greatest prosecutor, and that is Bill Press.

PRESS: My God, Bob Barr, I will save that tape! All right, but now I want to ask you just a quick question about the Intelligence Committee, because to me this is totally ridiculous. Any time sex comes up, like it used to with gay men and women, they say oh, they can't be trusted with government secrets. Congressman Barr, wouldn't you have to admit, if there's one person you can't blackmail, it's Gary Condit. He doesn't have any secrets left! We know everything about his life.

BARR: Well, that's not at all true, Bill, but that's really not the point. The point is not sex. The point is obstruction of justice. The point is interfering with a police investigation. The point is not following your oath of office, that all of us take, including those who serve on the intelligence committee. It's not about sex, it's about integrity.

PRESS: Well, maybe the point is that we all know what's going to happen to Gary Condit. We all know his political career is dead. And his son, Chad, was on our Larry King show last night and he all but said it. In case you didn't see the interview, please listen to Gary Condit's son here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAD CONDIT, GARY CONDIT'S SON: I have been in public life for 30 years. Never an allegation, never a charge. I don't know if he'll run again. My family vote would be that he doesn't. I don't think he deserves this. I don't think my mom deserves this. But that will be decided in the next few weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Now, read between the lines, Congressman. That's pretty clear. He's there, first of all, because he's speaking for his dad, and he's saying that the family doesn't want him to run for reelection. So he's not going to. Why don't you just let events take their course and he'll be gone in 18 months?

BARR: Well, here again, you're putting on your old Clinton defense hat, Bill.

PRESS: I don't have one!

BARR: I like you better as a prosecutor, to be honest, than a defense attorney. The fact of the matter is, I'm concerned here about public officials, members of Congress, who take an oath of office and who then fail to uphold it. This is a man who, I believe based on the evidence so far, has obstructed justice, has possibly tampered with witnesses, has interfered with an investigation, and against whom I think the honorable chorus ought to be to resign now, not to stay in office for another year and a half just because his family might want him to.

CARLSON: Now, Lanny Davis, you know there's a consensus in the world when Gray Davis of California joins something. This is not a guy who is out blazing new trails, this is very much a joiner, OK? So now he's joined the pile-on against Gary Condit. My question to you is, why didn't he and Dick Gephardt and other influential Democrats do this three months ago when it would have mattered, when their voice might have spurred Gary Condit to help the police and maybe provide vital information in the search for Chandra Levy? They didn't. They remained silent. Cowardly and silent.

DAVIS: I think, in the case of Dick Gephardt, he was very careful to wait to see whether Gary Condit would come forward. He might have waited a little bit too long.

CARLSON: Three months? You think that's too long?

DAVIS: I think he waited and came out courageously. I don't think that we've seen a bipartisan call on Gary Condit to be candid, and I don't think that the silence on the Republican side of the aisle is appropriate, because this shouldn't be about politics. They all should be calling for same...

CARLSON: Wait a second! Who -- first of all, look. He's a Democrat. I know you don't like to remember that. Gary Condit is -- say it loud, say it proud -- a Democrat. So first of all, who cares what the Republicans say? If they came out and attacked Gary Condit, it would just be another partisan attack, right? It's the Democrat voice that matters, and they weren't courageous about it. Dick Gephardt didn't come out until every living human being on the plan was against Gary Condit. Finally Dick Gephardt comes out. But it doesn't matter...

DAVIS: Not true.

CARLSON: Well, except Bill Press and his...

PRESS: First Democrat to speak.

DAVIS: If we could just get back to what's important here. You have two grieving parents. You have Chandra Levy still, with no evidence that Congressman Condit was involved. And for me, the only way this gets resolved, that he has any hope of recovery, is by going to the Levys and by taking an FBI-administered lie detector test. To me, that's the only way out of this for him. His refusal to do that is incomprehensible to me. It cannot be that his privacy rights are at issue any longer. It can not be that he's worried about a civil case. That's why I don't understand the whole strategy. It's contrary to everything we know about crisis management, which is get the truth out early, and yourself, and put it behind you.

CARLSON: Which is why he should have hired you right away. Lanny Davis, thank you very much. Congressman Bob Barr in Atlanta, thank you very much.

How appalling is Gary Condit's behavior? Bill Press and I will be back in our closing comments to mull it over. See you in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Tucker, I'm not defending Gary Condit. I stopped doing that. I stopped doing that. I stopped doing that the same time you wrote your column defending Gary Condit.

But I just want to ask about -- I can't figure out this Anne Marie Smith. Here is this flight attendant who is going around the nation bragging that she had an affair with a married man!

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Why? What's in it for her? What is her motivation?

CARLSON: Well, tell me this: Why is the Democratic impulse always to savage the woman? Why is this the party that holds itself up as, you know, the banner holder of women's rights, always beating up on the girlfriend? That alone, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) up to a race and gender gap.

PRESS: I'm not beating up on her. I'm asking you the question. Wait a minute. She's over 40 years old. She knows what she's doing. She has an affair with a married man and she wants everybody to know it.

CARLSON: Well, first of all...

PRESS: I don't give a damn!

CARLSON: First of all, he called her a money grubber and a publicity hound. It was her roommate who initially brought this to the attention of the press. She has received no money at all. She's received not a dime.

PRESS: She stood up and bragged about the affair first. Why? You still haven't answered my question.

CARLSON: Look, you have an affair with someone and then you go attack her on television? That's the least-gentlemanly thing you could do. That's the most obscene, unmannerly, disgusting -- out of control.

PRESS: Oh, what really makes sense is, you have an affair with a married man and you go on national TV and brag about it. That is great.

CARLSON: But once somebody does that, you don't beat up on her.

PRESS: God bless America. From the left, I'm Bill Press. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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