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Senators Discuss 'America's New War' in Town Hall Meeting

Aired September 20, 2001 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(AUDIO GAP)

BILL PRESS, HOST: ... responds to terrorism.

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: And in addition to our studio audience, we are joined by two prominent members of the United States Senate: Fred Thompson of Tennessee and Joseph Biden of the state of Delaware. We will be back in just a minute.

(NEWS UPDATE)

PRESS: Welcome to our CROSSFIRE town meeting live from the George Washington University in downtown Washington. In just under two hours from now President Bush, speaking to a joint session of Congress will outline to the nation what steps the administration plans in response to last week's terrorist attacks.

Members of the U.S. Senate already have their own ideas and two of them join us tonight to weigh in on the state of the economy, the health of the airlines and what kind of military action to expect, and when -- Tucker.

CARLSON: Thank you, Bill. And in addition to what all week has been a marvelous studio audience here at the George Washington University, we are joined by two prominent members of the United States Senate: Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware and Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee. Senator Biden, in about two hours, as Bill said, the president will appearing before Congress. You will be there. And he will explaining that America needs to make sacrifices in this war. It's not clear if he will be explaining who the enemy is in this war. Who do you think specifically the enemy is?

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: I expect he will explain who the enemy is in generic terms and with some degree of specificity. And I think that the sacrifices he will be calling for -- I'm not sure he will call for sacrifices as much as resolve. All these students here, all the people around this country, they are wondering whether or not they are going to have to give some significant chunk of their way of life.

And I hope the message the president is going to have is that this incredible attack marked not the end of the beginning of our way of life but the end of the beginning of a way of life that terrorists are able to operate across boarders with international almost sanction with some nations.

So, I expect he will talk about the coalition that he is putting together and he should be given significant credit. He is doing this the right way. And I also think he will talk about the fact, be patient. Don't expect to us conduct a traditional war. And as Colin Powell said yesterday, this won't be a traditional war. We won't reinstate the draft. You aren't going to be marching with 500,000 forces.

And it is important you know that, I think. This is not going to be one of these massive invasions, because we have to get this right, and do it right. I think he will -- I hope, that he will sort of give a broad overview of the nature of this as opposed to saying are going to do this, this and this.

PRESS: But Senator Thompson, let me pick up on that. I agree with Senator Biden, this is certainly not a traditional war. It is a totally different war. It is a war in a sense against an invisible enemy spread all over the globe. Is this really a war we know how to fight?

SEN. FRED THOMPSON (R), TENNESSEE: I think it will be a unique challenge for us. It's is certainly nothing we have ever encountered precisely before. There is no real front, there is no infrastructure, there is no Army, no Navy to hit in the normal sense of the word.

But we have known about this potential threat for a long time. The general public is not aware of everything that our military and intelligence knows about this. It's not totally unexpected. I think the precise attack certainly was unexpected, but the general nature of this growing problem has been told to Congress many, many times.

We have been told from one commission after the other and expert witnesses that terrorism was our number one threat to this country. We are living in a different kind of world. We have people that don't think the way we do and we can't expect to have that kind of opponent in the future. So, while on the ground it's going to be different, I think psychologically as far as our professionals and our military, I think it's doesn't come as a total surprise.

CARLSON: Senator Biden, Israeli intelligence a group that knows a lot about terrorism apparently believes that Iraq had roll in this. That is a view that is gaining currency in Washington. A, do you think that that is true, Iraq had a role? And B, does that make Iraq the enemy?

THOMPSON: Like Senator Thompson, I have access to the most recent estimates in the intelligence community and I think that anything I say to respond to something like that is probably inappropriate for me to do that on this program. Let me answer that question more generically. If a country was involved in a way that they were particularly accommodated and had some notion that such an attack was likely to take place, and if and or if they aided and abetted in any of the intelligence given to the attackers or in any way directly help them, that puts them in one category. That's the category, they are our enemy and they are no different than the people that conducted the attack. On the other hand, we are going to go back and as Fred and -- I was on the intelligence committee for ten years, Fred was on for a long time and I think still is -- what will happen is you -- we will be able to show if we wanted to, that a number of countries have aided and abetted terrorists organizations and individual terrorists over time.

It may be you will find a link between those who committed this act and planned it and something that happened in the past relative to helping them. I would argue that's a slightly different category in terms of how we respond. Because we have to -- look, big nations can't bluff. We can't miss on this. We cannot go out and cause the coalition that this administration is painstakingly put together, including the Arab world, including the Islamic world, including our erstwhile former enemies and/or possible adversaries in the future.

We can't go out there and make a mistake, or in a sense, declare war on every country that has in any way harbored terrorists in the past and except to keep that coalition together. So I think we have to be fairly precise what we do.

PRESS: Senator Thompson, every time I hear this discussion about countries that have perhaps harbored terrorists, I'm reminded of the fact that these terrorists, these 19 people so far as we know, lived here in this country for five years. And they weren't in hiding. They were going this little airport out on route 50, they were going to the gym, they were going to the video store, they were going to the pizza parlor. They were buying tickets on their own credit cards and -- they have bank accounts and the FBI didn't do anything, and the CIA didn't do anything.

You are on the Intelligence Committee. Don't you think there was a monumental screwup and that somebody' head ought to roll in one of our agencies?

THOMPSON: I think what we are seeing is not only how fragile human live is, but how vulnerable free societies are. And if you are a free society there is always going to be some window of vulnerability. I don't think there is any way to totally close that. But we have cause for great concern because of what happened. I think we are going to have to look at our visa situation, where so many people come in and overstay their time and we lose track of them.

But it's not that the FBI, for example, was not doing anything. It is the fact that the FBI is undermanned, for one thing, in terms of counterintelligence. I won't tell you how many people are devoted in Tennessee to it. I met with the Tennessee FBI office that is in charge of that and I was shocked with how few people they had to keep up with so many people.

We can't have an expansionist immigration policy and a limited counterterrorism police in an environment where we know that it is a matter of not if we will be hit, but a matter of when.

I don't think right now the time to go out and lash out at dedicated public servants who may have been hamstrung by some of policies of administrations of Congress and others. I think when we get on down the way a little bit, we are going to have to reassess the Congress's dedication and our policies of some of the things we have imposed, and then we are going to have to take a hard-nose look at our intelligence agencies.

We know that we are lacking. We don't know why or who is at fault or who is to blame. This is not time for that. But we need to do a reassessment. The fact that an operation like this, that apparently took a lot of time, took a lot of money, a lot of people, thousands of dollars going for pilot training. Hundreds of dollars going to people in bars and throwing money around, and that we didn't know anything about this, it all didn't pick up and it bothers me greatly. And we need to find out why.

PRESS: Senators, some tough questions come next when our students jump in to action. We will give them that chance. Tucker Carlson and I will be right back with Senator Biden and Senator Fred Thomson here at George Washington University for CROSSFIRE's special town meeting.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We have taken the show on the road to the George Washington University in downtown Washington, D.C. and we are taking questions from our studio audience for Senators Thompson and Biden.

First, Senators Thompson, A.J. from Chicago has a question for you.

A.J.: Senators, with both of your combined experience on intelligence committees how would you say that we can trust foreign intelligence committees? Right now, this is a coalition. Can we trust them in the future? How long will this last?

THOMPSON: Great questions. It depends on several different things including the country. Obviously we have a longstanding relationship with some countries and they have proven their reliability in times past.

Other countries, especially now, when we are going to have to reach out and have some alliances that we are not used to having and depend on some intelligence that we are not used to depending on. Those things will have to be checked with other facts that we have in order to test their reliability. But it's very perceptive to hit on that problem because it is going to a real one as we go forward.

BIDEN: If I could add ten seconds to that. I think we look at their motive. For example, Iran hasn't change anything about their attitude towards us, but Iran almost went to war with the Taliban. Iran would very much like to see the Taliban hurt if it turns out it is the Taliban.

Egypt, there is an organization in Egypt that has been part of the organization of bin Laden that has tried to assassinate the president of Egypt several times. My guess is the intelligence he gives us will be fairly accurate. I am not being facetious when I say that. So I don't want anybody to be pollyannish about how all of a sudden these organizations are going to be wonderful, but look at the motive. Look at their motive and you will be able to make some judgment as to how much you are willing to trust what they have to say, whether it is disinformation or real. That is part of equation.

PRESS: Senator Biden, a question for you from Moustaffa (ph) , who is from Miami.

MOUSTAFFA: Senator Biden, I'm a Turkish American Muslim, first generation. I was wonder what you think about the recent violence against many of our Arab American citizens.

BIDEN: I was at my home university yesterday at the University of Delaware and the point I wanted to make there because there's an awful lot of Muslims in this country, practice the Islamic faith. The one thing that this attack was about was about our western values.

One of the things that if it is in fact what you have been hearing most about, let's assume it was bin Laden who was at the head of this operation, the thing that bin Laden most would like to demonstrate to the poor and dispossessed in Afghanistan and other parts of the Middle East is that we really are not a multiethnic society. We really are not tolerant. We really are that devil. We really are what he portrays us to be.

And the one thing you can all do to help bin Laden succeed, if it is bin Laden, is treat Arab-Americans, or those practicing the Islamic faith in a way different from us. It is the very case he wished to make.

Taking down the World Trade Tower he knew would not take down America but he hopes that it would sew such discord in this country that if we respond in ways other than being embracive, I think we make his case. So, the one message I would have to all of you and I realize you are students and you are enlightened, you educated women and men, when you go home, you will be at local hangout the local bar, the local picnic, you will be at the thanksgiving dinner.

And when you hear someone say in our family or out of your family, well, you know, seal our borders, all these guys, and go on and on and on. Remind them, remind them, that's the very thing that they want to us do. It makes the case. It makes the case that we are that Satan, that we are this intolerable society who has no regard for them. So strong, strongly urge you to be broad minded about this.

Don't repeat what our parents' generation did, in the way which Japanese were treated at beginning of World War II. Don't do that because that is the case they are trying to make in the extremist Arab world and the extreme Muslim world. Don't help them make the case against us.

CARLSON: Senator Biden, you mentioned immigration in the list that you gave. Do you think it is possible to have legitimate concerns about immigration and about our borders without being a bigot?

BIDEN: Sure it is. For example, I think, Fred, you are going to be disappointed, Fred and I are friends and we don't disagree much on this stuff. I know that's not Washington but all kidding aside, what you are going to find is, Fred made the point, Senator Thompson made the point that we have people come in on visas and then we lose track of them.

We have no notion where they are. It's not inappropriate to have them have to meet the requirement of the visa given, which is, you check in, you sign in, in effect. You say this is where I am, this is when I'm leaving, this is what I'm doing. That is appropriate. That's totally appropriate.

That is very different from saying, as some voices I have heard, even in my own state say, cut the quota of the number of Arabs who are able to emigrate to the United States or be given visas. Stop our relationships with, move against, make sure you begin to profile, et cetera. Two different things. And there is a lot we can do to tighten up, legitimately, without violating anybody's civil liberties or civil rights, the way in which we treat immigration. But be careful.

THOMPSON: Joe said it so well, I can't improve on what he said with regard to the previous question, but I would point anyone who is concerned about our nation's commitment to this administration to inclusiveness and tolerance to look at our own cabinet, our own secretary of energy, who all Arab-Americans can be very, very proud of. It is in the heart of our administration.

CARLSON: Senators this is a question that is going to be harder to answer. This is from Farrah from Long Island.

FARRAH: Yes Senators, President Bush has promised us that America will come out ahead and win this. If it becomes a war of covert operations against terrorist cells that the media can't cover what is the American people will have to see to know we have won?

THOMPSON: I'm glad I don't have to come here every night and answer these questions.

You are not going to have the conventional pyrotechnics, I don't believe. You won't be able to go and say it is officially started now and watch it on CNN and watch the fireworks. I think it is going to be totally different as what your question implies. Traditional victories are not going to -- be had in all probability at least for the short term.

Our government and our military is faced with a real dilemma: If we act unilaterally we have more discretion as to how we can conduct this, but if we -- if we act unilaterally we also are going to lose some support from our allies in terms of this support that we will need broad-based.

So all those things are going to be taken into consideration in trying to figure out what kind of movements are going to take place. It can't be a bombing from 20,000 feet. That's not going to get the job done this time. On the other hand, if you go in on the ground, and it is more covert or in small groups and that sort of thing, then there are going to be loss of lives involved. So those are the basic questions. Yours is a corollary as to how we can define victory, but I think at the end of all that we will be able to.

PRESS: Senators before we take a break we have one more question here from Amy from Clifton, Virginia -- Amy.

AMY: Hi. My question is: Is it of any concern the fact that various fundamentalist groups based in Pakistan have expressed such open opposition to the fact that Pakistan's government has decided to align with our country and if so, is that going to create any degree of pause on how much we can actually depend on Pakistan government?

BIDEN: Good question. I met for an hour and a half the day after the planes crashed into the World Trade Center and Pentagon with the number two guy in Pakistan, a general who heads their CIA, their intelligence services. And after talking with the secretary of state and the president, my part of the deal was to deliver a congressional massage as chairman of the foreign relations committee.

Basically, you have to choose sides and we know you are taking a chance. You have a Hobson's choice here. The fact of the matter is, that Pakastani government by having chosen sides is vulnerable to being toppled, but the corollary to that was, if they didn't choose our side and chose the other side, they were even in more danger for their ability to become part of the world economy and become part of the civilized world.

So it's a very difficult problem, but they, in effect, made their own bed in a lot of this to begin with. So it's a hard choice and a lot of countries are going to have to make that choice. But make no mistake about it, it is possible, it is possible, that they could be toppled, but it's a chance at this point we have to take and, quite frankly, they have to take. But it is not easy.

THOMPSON: I think that the leadership probably concluded that Taliban posed a threat to the Pakastani leadership long-term even without this incident. And that this will perhaps be an opportunity for them to solve that problem for themselves while they assist us. At least I'm hoping that's what they are thinking and it will play out that way.

CARLSON: Senators, thank you. Bill Press and I have an entire roster of questions to hit you with and then of course will open it up again to our studio audience here at the George Washington University in Washington when we return to out special CROSSFIRE town meeting. We will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: We are live at the George Washington University with a special "CROSSFIRE" town meeting. We'll be back in a moment. First we go to CNN's Wolf Blitzer for a news update. Wolf?

(NEWS BREAK)

BILL PRESS, HOST: OK, wolf, thank you. Here we are at George Washington University. Our special CROSSFIRE town meeting with Tucker Carlson, of course, and Senator Joe Biden from Delaware, Senator Fred Thompson from Tennessee. Senator Thompson, let's shift ground a little bit to what's happening here at home. Because in addition to this war on terrorism, it looks like there may be a war on privacy.

The Justice Department has this bill called, I think, the counterterrorism act of 2001, in which they ask for not only some increased powers about dealing with immigration, but also increased powers to increase government surveillance of everybody -- all of our bank records, credit card records, Internet communications and God knows what else. Just because these crazy guys crashed into the World Trade Center, why should we have more Big Brother in our lives? Is it necessary?

SENATOR FRED THOMPSON, TENNESSEE: Well, Bill, a package came up yesterday, I believe, and I haven't had a chance to go through all of it. But I looked through a summary of it quickly and it looks like there may be 20 or so different items in there. Most of them are certainly not nearly as nefarious as you imply. Some have to do with extending the statute of limitations, increasing penalties, redefining terrorism, modernizing the term, and so forth.

There are some other provisions that are going to be -- require some discussion. But we are not going to a police state in this country. That will not happen. We will not stand for that. We don't need to do that. And nobody is proposing that.

What we will have some legitimate discussion on is things such as a roving wiretap; right now you have to have a wire -- a particular tap on a particular phone. You have to have probable cause, you know. You can't just go out and tap somebody's phone. You go to a judge and get permission. But you've got to go to a judge in every district where the suspect is traveling in. This is more of an update in view of a difference in technology now, where you can have something that would cover several phones that the suspect might be using. And it is -- it is an expansion.

But it is not a -- it is not an intrusion, I believe, on civil liberties and nothing that we should be concerned about that we are going off the deep end because of this. I think that most of these measures are going to put us in the middle of the road, where we should have been all along. Forget the terrible incident that just happened.

SENATOR JOE BIDEN, DELAWARE: Bill, can I respond to that?

PRESS: Sure, Senator.

BIDEN: In full disclosure, I wrote that bill. I'm not being facetious.

PRESS: It's really a great bill. BIDEN: No. No. I'm not being facetious. I'm not being facetious when I say that. I got a call from the attorney general in 1995 after the bombing of the -- in Oklahoma City. I drafted a bill as chairman of the Judiciary Committee that expanded a lot of these authorities. But none of the expansion relates to anything that will in any way jeopardize your civil liberties. Let me give you one example.

Right now, there is a situation where if in fact you are going to get -- you have probable cause, you go to judge and say, "I have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, we had want" -- a federal judge has to sign off on it. Right now, you say you can tap the phone in your home.

Well, we know if we can show that you go to the corner and make a phone call from a corner booth all the time, then we should be able to tap that phone and these phones, like my phone. They have a phone. They will use this phone and literally throw it in the Potomac and go to the next phone. So how do you deal with that reality?

The way you deal with that reality is -- and the worry is, if you are going to mother's house to use her phone and you are the one being tapped, you end up tapping your mother's phone and you find out your mother shoplifted, they hear that on the phone -- there is a way in which we wrote into the law that you cannot use anything you gather in that tap against anyone else on that phone, other than the person for who -- against whom you are seeking the tap.

Because -- look. There is no possibility any longer -- none of these terrorists, none of the organized crime units, none of the druglords, go to a single phone and use it anymore. So the ability to tap their -- intercept their calls and the ability to legitimately do that when you have probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, has to change as the technology is changed.

But keep in mind it requires a federal judge to determine that the standard -- that a crime has probably been committed is in play, and it goes against the individual who you are saying is the one who committed the crime. So this is not -- I mean, I usually agree with you on this program, I'm usually a Press guy, not a Tucker Carlson guy, you know, but I think you are wrong on this one, Bill.

CARLSON: Senator Thompson, since last week about 100,000 workers in the airline industry -- most of them low level -- have lost their jobs. Sky caps, for instance, who did outdoor checkin. Yet as far as I know, no government employee has been fired over the mistakes that we all admit were committed.

I know that a lot of government employees lost their lives last week, and so it is difficult to point the blame at in any one of them, because it is such a sad situation. On the other hand, can't we identify somebody or least some group with a little more specificity and say "this is where errors were made?" There's just a real reluctance to do that.

THOMPSON: I'm not sure I'm following you. You mentioned private airlines and then government employees.

CARLSON: I'm saying that -- it seems odd that, for instance, on August 1st Israeli intelligence warned, apparently, the CIA and FBI that 200 terrorists were in the United States and they were planning an attack, et cetera, et cetera. It strikes me that there was breakdown in the federal government at some level somewhere, and yet there doesn't seem active effort to find out where and punish the people responsible for it within the government. Should there be?

THOMPSON: There is an active effort, and there is going to continue to be an active effort. We don't mean to paper this over. It is not that we don't think it is a problem. We are going to have a hearing tomorrow on the Government Affairs Committee about issues of reorganization in our government. We've got too many entities out there running around with partial jurisdiction. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Just as one example of a problem that we've got, we may have some people in positions that shouldn't be there.

All those things are going to be looked at. But right now, you know, we shouldn't leap so quickly that we divert our attention and our resources toward trying to get somebody and putting blame on somebody in the heat of all of this passion, that we lose sight of the fact that we have got an operation to carry out. And we've got to -- we've got to stick together with regard to that. I must say, also, you don't hear about the successes that the intelligence community has.

BIDEN: Very significant successes.

PRESS: Senators, we'll leave it there. Our students are leaping with more questions. They will get their chance when we come back. Senator Thompson, Senator Biden, this is Bill Press and Tucker Carlson with a special CROSSFIRE town meeting at George Washington University. And just about an hour and 20 minutes from now, President Bush will be going up to the United States Capitol to address a joint session of Congress and outline America's response to terrorism. We'll be right back to GW.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We have taken the show on the road to George Washington University here in Washington, asking questions of two prominent U.S. senators. And now the students are -- this is Seth (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from New York City.

SETH: I was just wondering that since we have come straight out said, "you are with us or against us," is this too dangerous an ultimatum? Are we creating a bipolar world that could maybe start a third world war?

BIDEN: I think not. I think that what happens here is that -- look. Every once in a while an act occurs that even in this case terrorists have crossed the line. What you see in every nation state now, whether it's China -- even North Korea -- you see them understanding that it's chaos and terrorism versus nation states. And it in fact makes a -- are referring to me?

PRESS: You're doing great, Senator.

BIDEN: In fact makes the point that they understand they could be victimized by this as well. So there has got to be the -- you have to be united here. And the idea that, you know, we say you have to choose, doesn't mean that we are doing something unfair to any of these countries. The fact of the matter is, they have to choose their own safety's sake as well.

PRESS: Question I wanted to ask both of you senators. There has been a lot of talk about war, a lot of talk about the military, a lot of talk about reprisal and retaliation. I think all Americans feel some sense of that. But is the military option the only option? Are we considering other options? Economic pressures, diplomatic pressures? And is there any -- are there any limits on the kind of military action that either of you would support?

THOMPSON: I think you are seeing some other nonmilitary things playing out right now. I think one of the major stories that will come out of this for historians looking back on this will be what's going on right now in terms of the diplomatic efforts that probably Colin Powell, primarily, is engaging in right now in lining up the support. And clearly in the future -- this is no quick deal. Everybody says this.

It can't be emphasized enough. We are going to need allies in areas that we haven't had allies before, because these people are in, you know, some say 50, some say 70, different countries. And that is going to involve things such as potential sanctions, things of that nature, just exactly what you are talking about.

But ultimately, I mean, history proves that after all is said and done, sometimes it takes force. And I think clearly it is going to take all of the above in this particular case.

PRESS: This is question from Alex, who's from Tampa. Question for Senator Biden.

ALEX: I respectfully pose this question. In what ways will relations with Israel change in the coming months?

BIDEN: I don't think they will change at all. I think they will continue to be strong. I think they will be unimpeded by any of this. And quite frankly, if you take a look what's happened now -- if I had stood on this stage with all of you three weeks ago and said, "I believe that you are going to see Arafat and Sharon agree to what we have been desperately trying to get them to do, basically a cease-fire and pulling back." You would have looked at me and said, "Hey, Biden, come on. Give me a break."

Now, what's happened? They realize there is a great deal at stake. A great deal at stake for them and an opportunity -- look, sometimes nations and leaders look for ways out of the dilemmas they have placed themselves in. And sometimes history provides that for them. Here is a circumstance where there this godawful act has provided an opportunity for Arafat to do what he could not have done before, in his opinion. Because the vast majority of the Arab world is repulsed by what happened, notwithstanding what you see on TV. The vast majority. And so he is now able to say, OK, because of this bigger deal out here, I am going to go ahead and put the hammer down on violence. Which he was afraid to do before, in my opinion, for fear he would be the guy on the other end of the -- of the muzzle of a gun. There is opportunities here. And that is one of those opportunities that you are seeing that is presented by history.

The same with, I would argue, with our relationship with Russia, our relationships with Iran. I mean, did you ever think you would see in your immediate lifetime candlelight vigils in Tehran with thousands of people marching, praying for the United States and all those folks who died? Come on! This an opportunity.

CARLSON: Senator Thompson, what about Israel? Is it time to reassess our relationship with Israel?

THOMPSON: No. I think that the young man hit on an important question, and yours is a follow up to that. Let me present the other side of Joe's optimistic coin. I agree with everything that he said. I think it's right and I hope that plays out that way.

The downside of what's happening there that -- we should know that there is going to be many, many people -- some of whom we are going to be relying on, some of whom are going to be supporting us in this -- who are going to be telling us, implying to us, and in the future telling us more directly, if it wasn't for your support of Israel there -- this may not have ever happened. But the fact that you are the number one target is the effect of what you are doing in Israel.

I think that is not right at all. I do not think they are going against us because of what we are doing in Israel. They are going against Israel because of their relationship with us. That's a way to get to the west, and they represent in their eyes the west in that area. But it is going to be a matter of our United States being in the middle of two sets of friends.

Now, obviously, we are going to keep our commitment to Israel. There is no question about that. But we've got to recognize, too, we are going to have another set of friends saying, "Look. You need to reassess all this." And we should have a constant study of that situation, there.

But it's just an additional challenge in the middle of a tremendously large picture that we are going to have to be dealing with over the next several weeks.

BIDEN: We should remind our friends, if in fact they tell us that, that this guy we think may be responsible for this has no beef with Israel per se. It is not because of the Palestinians. It is because of Saudi Arabia. It is because of the situation there. It has not a damn thing to do with him getting energized having to do with Israel or dispossessed Palestinians. So let's get the facts straight.

The fact is that aggravate it? Does that allow the Arab world and those extreme elements in the Arab world to generate more hostility? Yeah, it does. But let's get the facts straight.

This guy Bin Laden was fine to have all his money in his pocket and didn't do a damn thing with regard to all of the Palestinians and the Middle East until the Gulf War. And guess what? The Saudi kingdom said, "come in, and you can put troops here." That was viewed as violating, in his mind, the holy places and propping up the regime in Saudi Arabia.

That is who he is after. That is the number one target. That is why we are viewed as public enemy number one. Not Israel. Others will take advantage of it. But let's get our facts straight here. This guy didn't start off dealing with the Palestinian cause.

CARLSON: Senator Thompson, do you think that -- you agree with that, that the...

THOMPSON: Beg your pardon?

CARLSON: Do you agree that Bin Laden's real foe is Saudi Arabia rather than...

THOMPSON: Yes, there is no question about it. Mecca, Medina -- we desecrated his holy sites, in his opinion, just for being there. We are there in order to protect that -- the government there, and he wants to overthrow the government. It's just that simple.

BIDEN: He thinks they would fall without us there.

Press: Senator Biden, Senator Thompson, we are going to take a break. We are here at a special CROSSFIRE at George Washington University. Our town meeting continues in just a moment. President Bush will be leaving shortly from the White House to go up to the Capitol to address that joint session of Congress. And we'll be back here at GW in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Thanks, Wolf. Our final minutes here at the George Washington University in Washington. Final couple of questions for our senators. This is Zach, Senators. He's from Minneapolis.

ZACH: Senators ,how is the U.S. government planning to ensure the American people our economy and money are both safe, the way Alan Greenspan iterated today?

BIDEN: By telling you not to be afraid. By telling you, don't bring these guys -- make them more than they are. We are talking maybe about a thousand people in the world. Tell you that we should fly. Tell you that your likelihood of being struck by a terrorist attack is about as likely as you winning the lottery and/or being struck by lightning. Keep this in focus. Get back to life. Remember those who died, be resolved in keeping the time and the energy we need to go after these guys, but get back to your life. Spend your money. Get on a plane.

PRESS: Senator Thompson, we saved this last question especially for you. David is from Memphis.

THOMPSON: All right.

PRESS: Know that city.

DAVID: Senator Thompson...

THOMPSON: I was there a few days ago, David.

DAVID: OK, great. I was wondering what you think ought to happen for the American people to be satisfied that we have won this war against terrorism?

THOMPSON: I think that it gets back to the question the young lady asked a little bit earlier. How could we tell when we have won? I think we will know. I think we will know. I think that there will come a time when we are much less vulnerable than we are now. There will come a time when the Taliban and related groups like that are substantially diminished, that they do not prove the threat that they are today. And we will know that in many different ways.

We are a free society. We can't keep the secrets that we ought to keep, much less the ones that we should not keep. We will know -- we will know what is going on. Maybe not on a day-to-day basis. We don't need to know the tactics, we don't need to know but every day we need to protect our troops while they out in the field. But I think that we will know, and it will be a safer world and we will feel it.

BIDEN: You will see bank accounts. You will see heads of state in other places announcing the arrests and the trial of people residing in their countries. You will see a lot of things that will demonstrate to you that there is progress. There is progress being made. But it is going take a while.

CARLSON: But Senator, as long as there's a country like Iraq working on a nuclear weapons program, if in fact it is, doesn't that by definition make the world unsafe?

BIDEN: Sure. The question wasn't when are we going to make the world safe. The question are we going to be able to deal with international terrorist organizations in the way that you have some confidence that they are not likely to take down more buildings in this country, for example, not whether or not the world is going to be safe.

The world is not going to safe as long as you have Russia supplying Iran with missile technology, that Iraq is trying to get chemical weapons, that we failed to corral all the chemical weapons the former Soviets are willing to let us corral with them, which cost about $11 billion. There is a lot we can do. We are not -- I'm not promising to make this world safe forever for you. I wish I could. If I were, I would be in a different job. But -- this is difficult.

CARLSON: I wish could you, too.

PRESS: I was about to say that it.

CARLSON: It was great to have you here. Thank you both.

PRESS: Thank you, Senator Thompson. Thank you, Senator Biden. Thanks to our studio audience. We'll be back tomorrow for another edition of CROSSFIRE town meeting here at George Washington University. President Bush will be addressing the nation at 9:00 eastern. Now to "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" here on CNN. Tucker Carlson and I back tomorrow night.

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