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CNN Crossfire

America's New War: Air Safety in Wartime

Aired September 24, 2001 - 18:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Good evening. We are live at the George Washington University in downtown Washington for a special CROSSFIRE town meeting. Tonight's topic, air travel in wartime. Will it be the same? We'll get to that with a panel of people who may know the answer.

But first, here's CNN's Wolf Blitzer with an update of the news -- Wolf.

(NEWS BREAK)

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Yes, everybody, good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE and the first in another week of town meetings at the George Washington University.

Today, former President Bill Clinton said he's going to take four commercial flights this week. He may end up having the whole plane to himself. Planes are going empty. Airlines are going under and people are just afraid to fly. We focus tonight on how to make the skies safe again, how to get the airlines back in business -- Tucker.

CARLSON: In addition to our terrific studio audience, we'll be asking Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, member of the Senate's Aviation Subcommittee, former Transportation Secretary Rodney Slater, and Delta pilot Dennis Dolan, who was the first Vice President of the Airline Pilots Association International.

Captain Dolan, let me start with you. Today, your union announced that it supports the idea of arming pilots of commercial aircraft. I support this instinctively, let me just say that. But explain why this is a good idea.

DENNIS DOLAN, CAPTAIN, AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION INTERNATIONAL: Well, Tucker, we've done a lot of soul searching in the last two weeks. And this decision was not arrived at easily. We feel that the issue with pilots is protection of the cockpit. And we're operating in a totally different environment now.

And what we mean by protection of the cockpit, the way we look at it, there's zones of protection. We'd like to see the first zone be, let's say, at the check in counter. If there's a potential threat, it's stopped there. If it doesn't happen there, the screening is the next zone of protection. Then you get on the airplane, we'd like to see armed federal marshals on the airplane. That's another zone of protection. We want a zone of protection at the cockpit door. We want it impenetrable if we can make it that way. And ultimately, if someone does gets into the cockpit, we want the pilots to be able to protect the security and the safety of the traveling public. That's our job.

PRESS: Senator Hutchison, do you agree with that? It wouldn't be easier just to give everybody on the plane a gun?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R), TEXAS: Well, I think we have to look at all of the options. I think that is one option. I'm not sure yet if that is the best one. You know, stun guns are another possibility.

I do think everything he said that we must do making the cockpits more secure, having better screeners, air marshals, which is the legislation I have introduced, are all absolutely necessary.

PRESS: Let me ask you Secretary Slater, there's always reaction and then there is overreaction. I want you about what I consider to be an overreaction? Last week, there were at least five incidents where people of Middle Eastern descent got on planes. They have been questioned, their luggage have been searched, their carry-on luggage have been searched. The people on the plane were uncomfortable just because of what they looked like and they were thrown off the planes. Isn't that racial profiling at its worst?

RODNEY SLATER, FORMER TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: In that case, Bill, probably so. And that's something that we're going to have to contend with. Clearly, we don't want to see that. We are all very anxious now. We're all very concerned about our safety and the safety of the traveling public.

But we should not lose sight of those principles and ideals that make America, America. And that's respect for the individual, and dealing with these security concerns in ways that recognize our civil liberties, civil liberties that we have to balance as we deal with security concerns.

CARLSON: Now Captain Dolan, the suggestions that you offered up making the cockpit door stronger, putting air marshals on, in my opinion, arming the pilot, they all seem like fairly low cost for one thing, but common sense solutions to a threat to air travel. I guess my first question is, why weren't these things done sooner and do you feel bitterness that they weren't in the previous administration for not pushing them?

DOLAN: I don't think blame is the issue here. We all learned a lot of things, Tucker, in this last two-week period. I think that for a number of reasons, certain things were not done.

The cockpit door, for example, was always designed to be easy to knockdown in case of emergency to egress. So we can't assign blame. What we need to do now is learn from what's happened here and try to put as much protection and security in the airplane and the environment, the whole environment, that we can. That's what we need to strive for now.

PRESS: Senator, I want to ask you about there's a proposal. And many Democrats as well as Republicans have endorsed it, that the federal government should take over the airport security system, the security guards at the machines you go through when go into airport.

I mean, I'm a liberal, but I don't think that necessarily the federal government can do everything better than the private sector can. I mean, where's this coming from? We're going to have the federal government takeover these security systems and we think that's going to make everything -- that's going to solve all the problems?

HUTCHISON: Well, out of 102 countries that have international airports, 100 of them have a federal employee or an airport employee do the screening. Now, you don't have to necessarily have government employees, but do you have to have standards and you have to answer to the FAA or the federal government.

I think it is very important that we have education and training standards for the screeners. And we need to make sure that there is an oversight of that.

Now I want to say quickly that I have flown twice now in the last two weeks. I am seeing the traffic pick up each time I have flown. The Friday after September 11, it was grim, but this weekend, it was much better. The security is so much better at the airports.

I saw razor blades confiscated from a carry on. Most certainly, we see detailees. I know an armed marshal has on my plane at least once. And I know that there are detailees that are watching the screeners now from the border patrol and Customs, where they have experience in looking at these things.

So I think we're taking a lot of steps. And I think the traveling public needs to know that it's a different airport today than it was September 10.

CARLSON: Secretary said one airport that's very different, as you know, is National Airport, which of course closed.

PRESS: It's a very different.

CARLSON: Former Senator Bob Kerrey was on CNN this weekend. He said something fascinating. He said, first of all, we ought to open it in 24 hours. And the reason that is because it's more than an airport, it's a symbol. And that closing it is depressing. It's a sign of fear. And in fact, it's not that much more dangerous than Dulles Airport, which is three minutes away by jet. So why is National Airport still closed?

SLATER: Well, National is closed because of the unique posture of National Airport. The close proximity to the nation's capital, the White House, the Pentagon. I mean, all of these concerns that have been raised are legitimate concerns.

I do though believe that we can balance again our security interests and also deal with our desire as a nation to remain an open society. And that's what makes America, America.

We're going to have a lot of people working on this. I think we're going to see the day when National is reopened, but we'll do it when we have the security measures in place to ensure the safety of the traveling public.

PRESS: Quickly, open National, yes?

HUTCHISON: I am not one who is pushing anybody to open National Airport. I was stunned this weekend when I saw everybody saying, "No, we ought to open it." We don't know all the security threats. We don't know how we can open it safely yet. And I am not going to press the people who are in charge of making our security better and saying, "I'm putting my political judgment in front of your security judgment."

PRESS: Captain, yes?

DOLAN: Well, I think it should be open. My opinion is it should be open, provided we get the security issues sorted out, which I think will be the same as any other airport. There's nothing at National Airport, in my opinion, that's anymore of a risk than it was on September 10, as far as flying airplanes into there. And the point that was made earlier about the proximity here to other airports in the area does not, in my opinion, preclude National from continuing to operate.

PRESS: Captain, I'll fly with you anytime. We'll be back with questions for our panel from the members of our studio audience, both students and community members. Questions for the panel coming up. Bill and Tucker. We'll be right back.

(APPLAUSE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: Welcome back. We're live at George Washington University talking on this CROSSFIRE particularly about airline safety with our panel and also with members of the studio audience. First question for the panel here from Cheryl, who's from Silver Springs.

Would you please stand, Cheryl? Sure. Your question is to?

CHERYL: My question, I'm flying next week. I'm going to Minneapolis. And frankly, I'm more I'm afraid of speaking on camera than I am to you. But I'd like to know how you propose to protect against things like bioterrorism and chemical warfare? You can carry those things in your pocket?

PRESS: Senator, you want to start off that?

HUTCHISON: Yes. I think her question is a very good one because we don't want to be guilty of fighting the last war. We're going the clamp down on aviation security, but now we have the biological and chemical weapons that we must assess. And we must assess the threat. And I think that is what our new terrorist czar is going to be doing. That's why we appointed -- the President is appointing the cabinet level person to look at all of the threats out there to our water supply, to subway systems, to other forms of mass transit. And we're going to secure, to the very best extent that we can, our waterways, our trains, or subway systems, and the public works that could be vulnerable.

PRESS: Captain, is that why they grounded the crop dusters?

DOLAN: Well, I don't know that they grounded them, but they're certainly looking at them. They want to make sure that there's a level of security there where we can't allow someone who's unauthorized to access an aircraft like that that could do potential damage to crops and our people.

CARLSON: We have a question here from Heather from San Clemente, California.

HEATHER: Hi, my question's for Captain Dolan. Obviously, the first priority in flight safety right now is just getting things as safe as they can be. I was wondering if captains or flight attendants are a little nervous about getting behind things that might be not safe for them?

DOLAN: Well, certainly, the events that we witnessed on September 11 gave us all pause for thought. And we all experienced a lot of emotions, including fear. I'm sure, anyone who saw that.

But our job as pilots is to deal with situations where we have to put our emotions aside and be professional and do the job that we need to do. And that's what we're going to do here. We're going do that flying the aircraft. And we're going to use our extra awareness to make sure that the security and safety level is at the very highest level.

PRESS: OK, I have a question here from John from Washington, D.C., a question for Secretary Slater.

Hi, John.

JOHN: Thank you.

I'm with Paralyzed Veterans of America. And Secretary Slater, I know you've been helpful in the past with some of the transportation issues. For people that use wheelchairs and for others with disabilities, air travel is difficult in the best of circumstances. With heightened security, I was wondering what comments you might have or what recommendations you would have that would preserve not only the integrity of the security system, but also the basic civil rights of people who have disabilities who travel?

SLATER: Sure. John, first of all, thank you for raising that issue in an audience like this. I think we all recognize the importance of transportation as the tie that binds, if you will. It's our access to a job, our access to our families. Our access, as we pursue happiness literally. And that's for all Americans. And I think as we engage in heightening the security of our aviation system and our entire transportation system, I want the commend Senator Hutchison for talking about the entire system.

We have to ensure that that system is inclusive in its service, that no one is left behind and everyone has the benefit of the system.

During my term as Secretary, you mentioned the fact that we made a significant effort to ensure access, aviation the transit systems and the like. And that will continue with Secretary Mineta. He's done a great job. He's put together a good team. He has the support of President Bush and the entire administration. He's doing a very good job and will continue to do so.

CARLSON: OK, Senator, we have a question from Bill from Silver Spring, who's a Vietnam Veteran.

BILL: Senator, I fought in Vietnam. And I wanted to know your sense of how important it is to Congress that there be an idea what victory in this thing would look like?

HUTCHISON: That's a wonderful question. And you know, when we go into the normal war situation, we need to always go in knowing what the mission is, knowing when we've won and having an exit strategy.

I think the President will do that, even though it is going to be more difficult when we are not fighting just another country. We're not fighting for territory. We're not fighting for the usual causes of freedom, but we are fighting for freedom.

Probably in several countries, going for little terrorist cells as they connect to each other in several countries. But I think the President will lay out, once we have the idea of where those connections are and which countries are going to cooperate, he will be able to lay out what our goal is and when we can declare victory and declare an exit.

PRESS: Is it safe to fly, captain?

DOLAN: It's safe, but we can make it safer. And what we need to do, I think, first of all, is we need to revalidate all the employee, aircraft employee, aviation employee identifications. We need to do that first so we know who we're dealing with.

Then I mentioned that the perimeter of safety issues a zone of safety issues that we need to address. And I do think we need a federal agency that just specifically deals with aviation safety issues and aviation security issues, I'm sorry, aviation security issues. I would like to see that happen.

PRESS: Here's another question about airline security from Orry from Boston.

ORRY: Secretary Slater, will these precautions be permanent or in five years down the road, will air travel resume to the way it was before?

SLATER: Orry, I would say this, that when it comes to safety and security, we have to be eternally vigilant. We have to continue to build on the security of the system, building from strength to strength.

So whether there will be changes five years from now or not, frankly, I would hope so if it's making the system safer and more secure. The important issue though that you're addressing here is caught up in the moment, committed to the end of securing our system and making it safer and providing the resources as Congress has done over the last few weeks.

Will we continue? Will we remain vigilant? I hope we will. I believe that we will.

CARLSON: Senator, you have a question from John from Groton, Connecticut.

JOHN: Madam Senator, Chairman Young made the comment on the House floor last week that we need to "ensure the continued operation of our air transportation system." With the fact that the airlines are in fiscal trouble, and many Americans are so afraid to fly right now, how do you propose that we do this?

HUTCHISON: We have proposed a stabilizing support for our airlines. We have passed legislation, which the President has signed, that would compensate the airlines for all the grounded flights that took place that week of September 11 and to compensate them for the lower numbers of passengers that are flying based on actual data that they can show of the same flights that flew in the last quarter.

So we're trying to do the right thing by the airlines. And we feel if we can stabilize the airlines and hopefully mitigate these layoffs that have already announced, that that will also keep us from having that domino effect in the rest of the economy.

CARLSON: Senator, what about the criticism that some are making now that the airline industry was in trouble already before the 11 of September?

HUTCHISON: Well, I think that's correct. But I don't think that means that we can let this kind of cataclysmic event, which was not their fault, go unanswered. The fact that they were not in good shape meant that we did need to do something, to shore them up, just hopefully for a short period of time until the flying public comes back. And they will not need those extra subsidies.

PRESS: I guess the question I have to Secretary Slater is we're giving $15 billion to the airlines, but there are 80,000 people who lost their jobs. I mean, they don't get any of that money, do they? And they're out of work.

SLATER: Well, and the number is growing. Boeing recently announced layoffs as well. You'll have Delta probably in the next few days. The action of Congress with the support of the President and I would say the American people was to stem that tide. It's true that the airlines were facing challenges before this incident that was so tragic on September the 11th. But hopefully with this effort on the part of Congress, we'll see the airlines comeback.

But they need your support. The men and women who fly the planes, who are there to protect you and your interests as you move through the various levels of screening and security, they're there working for you. They need your support. They need your help. Please give them your support and help as the Congress has given help and aid to the airline industry in the past few days.

PRESS: All right, here's a question for the panel from Kaprit who lives in Fairfax, Virginia nearby.

KAPRIT: Secretary Slater, this is probably directed to you. There's been a number of cases, reported cases of people being asked to sort of step off planes in the last few days because of either their name being associated with some sort of suspicion or for physical appearance. And as a Sikh, as an American, I travel a lot for business, you know, inside the country and outside.

I'm concerned that in my case, I'm born and raised here. I don't have a criminal record. I don't have any ties to any suspicious organizations. In my case, if I'm asked to step off a plane, it's 99 percent because of my turban and beard, which are articles of faith.

Now my question is, if this was a case, if there was a person of Jewish faith who walked in with a yarmulke and was asked to leave or a Christian with a crucifix, any other sort of parallel like that, there would seem to be a lot of hew and uproar and protections.

So my question is, what's being done, and this is for Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison too, officially to sort of standardize procedures in that regard?

PRESS: Have to have a short answer. Senator, you want to start that?

HUTCHISON: Well, I think that certainly they have to have the ability to address people who do have a suspicious background. And they have a number of people that are known to be in these terrorist cells. That is for cause. Anything else is not acceptable in the United States of America.

CARLSON: Thank you Senator. I'm sorry, we're going to have to leave it there for the moment. Anyway, we'll be back.

SLATER: I support the Senator's comments.

CARLSON: Amen. We'll be back in a just a moment, returning to our CROSSFIRE special town meeting here at George Washington.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Unfortunately, our town meeting for tonight has come to an end. We want to thank our terrific studio audience here at George Washington and our excellent panel. Captain Dolan, Senator Hutchison, Secretary Slater.

PRESS: Well done, Tucker.

CARLSON: Thank you, Bill.

PRESS: All right. You can say well done, Bill.

CARLSON: Well done, Bill.

PRESS: We'll be back tomorrow night for another town meeting here at the George Washington University. Thanks for watching. Thanks for being here everybody. See you tomorrow night. Don't forget, 6:30 tomorrow night, George Washington University.

CARLSON: And every night this week.

PRESS: CROSSFIRE town meeting. Good night. See you.

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