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CNN Crossfire
Interview With Bob Beckel, Interview With Cliff May
Aired December 21, 2001 - 19:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: CROSSFIRE has been making the list and checking it twice. And tonight, we are going to tell you who has been naughty and who has been nice.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, Democratic strategist Bob Beckel and Republican strategist Cliff May.
BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. He knows when you have been sleeping. He knows when you are awake. He knows when you have been bad or good so be good for goodness sake. No we are not talking about John Ashcroft. We are talking about Santa Claus. Who's more over worked than ever this year. Not to mention having to deal with all the extra airline security.
So, Tucker and I, plus a couple of CROSSFIRE regulars have agreed to help Santa out this year when it comes to Washington, he doesn't have to worry. We'll tell him who has been naughty and nice starting right now with, ever naughty Tucker Carlson.
CARLSON: OK, let's start at the naughties end of the continuum, John Walker, we've heard from the beginning that he was confused. He's young, he's brain-washed, he's on morphine. Let's consider, for the sake of argument, all these things are true. They give him an excuse, the people who defend him on the other hand have no excuses. There's no excuse for defending a creeping like this, an un-American, treasonous creep from Marin County. And that makes it worse, they've got no excuse.
BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, they're...
CARLSON: As a defender...
BECKEL: No, I'm not a defender, but their best defender is one George Bush, he said this was a misguided young man. He felt sorry for him so you just dumped on your own president, pal.
PRESS: I might also point out that one of his best defenders is Ken Starr, who said that John Walker is no Benedict Arnold. Obviously, Tucker you have been practicing law too long without a license.
CARLSON: Thinking for myself I know a creep when I see one.
BECKEL: He and John Ashcroft have been practicing law without -- listen, I've got a nice, this is going to surprise you all.
PRESS: A Nice?
BECKEL: Yes, I have a nice one for a Republican, Dick Armey. He's...
PRESS: Whoa.
BECKEL: on the top of my nice list. Now, Bill. And the reason he's so nice is he's leaving. Thank God.
(LAUGHTER)
After probably 20 years too late, but he's finally leaving town. I can't be happier about it. He couldn't be nicer to the rest of us. Dick have a good trip, buddy, back to Texas and stay there, will you.
MAY: Dick Armey is nice.
CARLSON: See, I'm glad you point that out. Unlike Barney Frank, he has good planners. He's nice...
BECKEL: Well, it depends on what time of day it is.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... to deal with. He's a nice guy. Good for you for pointing it out to us.
PRESS: I would say everything is relative. Compared to Tom DeLay, Dick Armey is nice. And is actually...
(LAUGHTER)
I tell you one other thing. Dick Armey comes on CROSSFIRE. Tom DeLay is chicken. You know who I favor -- you wanted to defend your guy, quickly?
CLIFF MAY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Dick Armey is a wonderful man. I know him, you know him. To say he's not nice -- you can say disagree with him -- you can't say he's not nice.
BECKEL: The one thing though about DeLay is he's going to have now for the Republicans the face of the party will become more reptilian as a result of Tom DeLay. He's the worst snake that ever hit this town.
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
PRESS: Moving along for the...
MAY: Elevate the tone.
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: ... for my naughty. BECKEL: I thought that was quite nice.
PRESS: Moving along for my naughty character, I want to go to the Department of Justice, none other than present occupant J. Edgar Ashcroft who by rounding up all the detainees, by taking away the right of confidentiality between lawyers and their clients, by setting up these military tribunals, trying to turn us into a police state. He should not get away with it -- naughty, naughty. Then in the middle of it has the audacity to name the department after Robert F. Kennedy.
CARLSON: Wait a second, can I just use two words? Janet Reno. That's who we had for (UNINTELLIGIBLE). If Janet Reno were attorney general during this war, that would be horrifying.
PRESS: I wish she were still there.
MAY: Let me just say wrong again, Taliban breath. John Ashcroft has had the encourage to endure this kind of verbal salvos, but what he's done with his courage is he's probably saved a lot of American lives by making sure we are protected. Let's go to somebody nice...
BECKEL: Wait a second.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: ... for right now.
BECKEL: Wait a second. You just jumped on my friend here and said Taliban breath. You know what they say in Italy, boff anabla (ph). Now let me just say this about John Ashcroft. John Ashcroft...
CARLSON: Fellas!
(CROSSTALK)
BECKEL: ... this is the guy -- John Ashcroft who clearly did not take a constitutional law class when he went through law school and I thought John Mitchell was the worst Republican attorney general. Ashcroft is not only worse, but he's brains, which makes him that much more dangerous.
MAY: Bob, tell us right now you want every detainee released, because you think it's a travesty that he's detained them.
CARLSON: Why don't they let them loose in your neighborhood.
MAY: Right now!
BECKEL: They would rather live in my neighborhood, Tucker. They can't get into your neighborhood.
PRESS: Cliff, since they have admitted of the 1,200 not one, not one was connected to 9-11 they should probably all be released.
BECKEL: Yes, and I agree with Taliban breath. MAY: Let's go on to nice. How about Rudy Giuliani. He is a mayor's mayor and once more a Republican mayor who has been lionized on Saturday Night Live. Now this is a new millennium.
CARLSON: Can I just point out one of the most appealing things about Rudy Giuliani, is his physical courage. On 9-11 he was there, actually next to a building that collapsed. Unique among many leaders in the United States. He showed up at the scene and actually risked his life -- not something you see politicians do.
PRESS: I have to say bravo, Rudy Giuliani. I just wonder where this Rudy Giuliani has been for the last 8 years, but certainly...
MAY: He was there...
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: ... since 9-11 --
MAY: ... you just didn't see him clearly.
PRESS: No, no, no -- it's a different Rudy.
BECKEL: I'll say this. Having dealt with lots of mayors in my life, there's some people that love their city and some people who really love their city and this guy loves his city. I think he deserves a lot of credit.
CARLSON: Well, amen. And someone I think all, of us, and I speak even for you, Bob Beckel, have come to love Laura Bush. And you knew that beneath the calm school teacher exterior, lay the heart of someone with a real sense of humor and real in site into the human condition. She was asked at a press conference recently, if she would be writing her memoirs. Here's how she responded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: It has to do with whether or not I can get that $8 million advance.
(LAUGHTER)
Only kidding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: Only kidding with a smile. If you are not in love with this woman after that contrast it to Hillary Clinton and her scowling right wing conspiracy. This is how you attack somebody, with a smile.
PRESS: Oh!
BECKEL: I'll say, I had Laura on my list as well. I have two little kids. This woman knows how to communicate with children. And on behalf of my kids I want to thank her, because during her explanation of what happened September 11, showed a lot of dignity. A lot of class and a lot of understanding of little kids. So on behalf of my kids I want to thank her. I think she's great. Too bad she married Bush.
PRESS: I want to say I think she's great too. I think she's a first class first lady and I wish the Republicans, starting with you Tucker, paid first lady Hillary Clinton as much respect as Democrats are now paying Laura Bush.
CARLSON: I love Hillary Clinton for what she does. Great fund raising tool.
PRESS: You can't do it.
MAY: Let's go to a naughty. This is a pretty obvious one. Osama bin Laden.
PRESS: Wait a minute.
BECKEL: You just jumped.
MAY: I'm sorry.
BECKEL: I was going say my naughty, this is going to come a surprise, is Bill Clinton. And I'll tell you why. The right wing can not live without Bill Clinton. I mean, every time Clinton is out there and the more he says that gives them more ammo to stay alive on the air, whether it Limbaugh or Carlson.
Now here's the point about Clinton. For eight years he got them to back down. He beat them. He drove -- it drives them crazy. So Bill, please, you want a legacy. The legacy is you drove the right wing nuts. Don't give them any more ammunition.
CARLSON: Did you read "The New York Times" this morning? And it turns out Clinton is having...
BECKEL: What is "The New York Times"?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... meetings...
BECKEL: I'm sorry.
CARLSON: It's a newspaper published in New York. A lot of people read it. It explains how he's having meetings in New York on how to burnish his image. The publicity campaign, the campaign of self agradizement (ph) continues even after he leaves. It's pathetic. Actually it's a psychiatric problem.
PRESS: What would you do without Bill Clinton? The gift that keeps on giving for you.
CARLSON: He's a virus that keeps on spreading.
PRESS: Jimmy Carter trying to sell himself as the sage of Plains. Richard Nixon turned sou's ear into a silk purse. Every former president tries to help their legacy.
CARLSON: How did Nixon do it?
PRESS: I'm saying if Nixon could do it, Bill Clinton's got a much easier time.
Here's my nice. I want to come back to Hillary Clinton. Actually, I'm talking about Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. Because a lot of us said last year, you watch. She's not going to be a show horse. She's not going to try the take over. She's going to get in there and be a work horse and deliver for the people of New York and she has. She's a damn good United States senator. And you know what, Republicans love working with her. So, bravo to Hillary.
BECKEL: You got Tucker actually absolutely stunned over here.
CARLSON: No. I'm glad for Hillary, too, because she's the perfect embodiment of the values of her party, she's stern, humorless. She's left wing. She's sort of the uber-Democrat. I look at her and say that's the Democratic party.
BECKEL: You call the value of our party humorless? You guys are like going to a wake every night. Going to talk to a bunch of Republicans. You talk about a bunch of downers. It's like going to one of your meetings is like everybody is on Prozac. That's the problem with your crowd.
PRESS: You want to hang out with Trent Lott?
BECKEL: Yes. Now there's a lot of fun.
MAY: I do think Hillary is going postpone her postpone her presidential aspirations another few years at this point. Let's go to an easy one.
PRESS: This is a naughty for you, right?
MAY: Easy naughty, Osama bin Laden. You know what's naughty about him?
PRESS: Oh, you're really sticking you neck out.
MAY: That he wasn't found dead in the rubble of Tora Bora. That was naughty. And actually there's a nice part. The nice part is he left behind some booklets including one he left behind a training manual called "How to Attack America. It opens with a chapter entitled how to start a war. If anybody who wasn't clear on that, and there are those who were not, he's left that behind for us.
CARLSON: Here's you chance, defend him.
BECKEL: Cliff this is -- excuse me, Tucker, this is your chance to kiss my Democratic left ear.
CARLSON: On that high brow note.
PRESS: Can we agree Osama bin Laden is a naughty guy? Wow!
CARLSON: We reached consensus.
PRESS: OK.
CARLSON: This show is about to become far more controversial. Stay tuned. George W. Bush: naughty? nice? Somewhere in between? You'll have to await our verdict. We'll be Right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Leave it to us here at CROSSFIRE to highlight the judgmental implications of the holiday season. That's exactly what we are doing tonight as we assess who has been naughty this year and who has been the opposite of.
Joining us, two world-renowned experts on the subject of naughty and nice: Republican consultant Cliff May; his counterpart on the other team, Democratic consultant Bob Beckel. I think we all agree the world is different after September 11. It's a brand new world, new challenges, new fears, new vistas before us.
We know that the leader of the Democrats in the Senate, Tom Daschle, feels the same way. I want you all to listen to his assessment of the threats America faces in the wake of 9/11. Here's Tom Daschle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: Poultry waste and waste of all agricultural products is something that continues to threaten our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARLSON: So chemical weapons, biological warfare, dirty nukes, poultry waste. That sums it up. That's not even naughty. That's ludicrous and I dare you to defend that.
BECKEL: Can I just take -- I think he's the best majority leader in 40 years. But let me take a divergence off of that about who your poster child ought to be for the Republican Senate: one Larry Craig, up for re-election in Idaho, right?
Larry Craig last week voted himself a pay raise over 150,000 bucks, and one year ago, voted against a 50-cent pay increase at the minimum wage five times in a row. This guy has got the arrogance of incumbency.
(CROSSTALK)
He is a right wing nut and he's on the board of the National Rifle Association.
CARLSON: He's a right wing nut?
BECKEL: He's a right wing nut, even more than you. I mean, he makes you look like a liberal.
CARLSON: That is such name calling, I can hardly believe -- may lightning strike you, Bob Beckel. That's outrageous.
BECKEL: It does all the time.
PRESS: All right. Bob Beckel, yes.
MAY: I wanted to get back to...
PRESS: Daschle?
MAY: Yes, Daschle for a second because first of all, at a time like this, at a time of war and recession, the majority leader should be majority leader for both parties and for all people. And he's not doing that. He's obstructed an economic stimulus package that had bipartisan support...
CARLSON: Tell it like it is, Cliff May. Preach it!
MAY: ... in the House and had bipartisan in the Senate. And then, he has also blocked judicial nominees and other Bush nominees. Poor Gale Norton, home alone, she can't get her nominees through.
PRESS: I don't want to spend too much time on Tom Daschle. We've got to move along. But I have got to tell you, sometimes even here, you have to have the facts, Cliff, OK.
Number one...
MAY: Yes.
PRESS: The use of force resolution. Number two, $40 billion bailout; number three, $15 billion for the airlines; number four, victims' compensation; number five, airline security bill; number six, the education bill. You want me to just keep going?
(CROSSTALK)
You are whining about one bill.
MAY: The fact is you are against the economic stimulus package Americans need.
PRESS: It's a bad bill.
MAY: But a bipartisan majority in both houses would pass it.
PRESS: We do not bail out corporations.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, ladies, on to the next part.
BECKEL: This comes from the same crowd that after eight years, we got them out of debt and in the surplus. In eight months, they got us into debt again.
MAY: We who, pale face? You and...
PRESS: Move on. Move on.
CARLSON: Go ahead.
BECKEL: Chris, be nice. All right, nice. This is nice now: Geraldo Rivera. I know he's at another network, but let me say this. I saw Geraldo as his war correspondent best the other night on television. And I must say, I laughed so hard that it made me feel better. So I want to congratulate Geraldo for being one of the great comics of this new century. And then after he was done, I went the real reporters to get the news about the war.
CARLSON: OK, well that's -- I'm not going to comment on that.
BECKEL: See, that's the problem. I have been around long enough. I can dump on people like that. You're a little careful, aren't you?
CARLSON: I'm not careful. I think it just speaks for itself.
PRESS: Let's just say he does have a little problem with his geography and his...
BECKEL: I'm going to let you all off on this because you'll probably get interviewed by him one day. I don't care at all.
PRESS: ... and his reporting.
I want to go to the naughty side. I'm telling you, the single, the single most disgusting response to 9/11 came from our good friend, the Reverend Jerry Falwell, who, of course, on the Pat Robertson show summed it all up, telling people who he thought was responsible for the terrorist attacks. Quote: "The pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say you helped this happen."
It makes me want to throw up.
CARLSON: This is terrible news from the left.
PRESS: Defend him, Cliff.
CARLSON: Hold on, this is terrible. He blew himself up. He's a casualty, self-inflicted, of September 11. He's destroyed his career, fairly so. But the problem for you is without Jerry Falwell, who is there? Who are you going to beat up on? I mean, he's the most...
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, they ain't going to go away, Tucker.
CARLSON: They have gone away.
BECKEL: Are you kidding? The list is endless. Go through the entire United States Republican Senate list.
MAY: You've done the naughtiest. Let me do the nicest.
BECKEL: Hold on, wait. Can I say one thing about Jerry Falwell? He proves that man is not necessarily at the top of the food chain.
CARLSON: Well, yes, but he's over. That was the 80's. Pick a new villain, Bob.
BECKEL: He's your guy.
MAY: The nicest has got to be President George W. Bush. This is a man of integrity and principal, and once more -- once more -- he showed that he's a great communicator. You know what he has been communicating? That America is again a nation that defends its friends and defeats its enemies. And if you do that, guess which category people want to fit into? They want to be your friends, not your enemies. It's time to have some clarity. Bush has given it to us. Give him a hand. You all should.
PRESS: Wait a minute. I mean, I think he's done better than we expected. But then, our expectations were so low.
MAY: Your expectations were so low, but he's done great.
PRESS: But, wait a minute, what is a great communicator? Bring him back, dead or alive. He can run, he can't hide.
CARLSON: It's called -- Bill...
PRESS: I mean, does he know any two syllable words?
CARLSON: It's called crisp.
MAY: Leadership is not giving multi-syllabic words.
CARLSON: That's exactly right.
MAY: Leadership is showing people what you mean.
BECKEL: Listen, I want to give him -- I think the expectations is exactly right. I think he's done a terrific job on this war.
MAY: Thank you. You're right. He has.
BECKEL: But let me suggest, he's sitting on top just like his father was, on absolutely no sense of domestic issues for people who are poor tonight. One in five children are still going to bed in poverty. And economic stimulus is the worst corporate giveaway. You talk about Christmas, you give IBM $1.4 billion...
CARLSON: You're talking about...
MAY: Unemployment benefits, health benefits, it's all there in the package.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Let's talk about something that we can all agree on. This is nice, and I propose maybe for the nicest of all award: the press corps, which has covered this story accurately and with integrity from day one. Eight reporters have been killed covering it in Afghanistan. And I hope that when people seek to put the blame for whatever it is on the press for here on out, they'll remember that actually, that the press is really risen to the challenge of this.
PRESS: Amen.
CARLSON: I think they've done a marvelous job.
BECKEL: I'll agree. And I'll say one thing about the Bush administration. When they decided to go on the public relations offensive, allowed reporters in to Afghanistan during the fighting unlike the Gulf War, I think we got much better news and it was much better for support.
CARLSON: Really? Because I actually think that the enterprise that these individuals showed, without any help from the military, all just going in and finding the story in the remotest, most dangerous parts of Afghanistan is amazing.
BECKEL: Yes, but they were allowed in. You remember Bob Simon who drifted out and got picked up during the Gulf War.
PRESS: Yes, Bob, your naughty?
BECKEL: Oh, I'm sorry. My naughty: the House of Representatives. Now, it's not because they are controlled by the Republicans and the head of the snake, Tom DeLay. But it is this: The House of Representatives decided in their courageous best to leave town during the anthrax scare. The Senate stayed in. Now when they all left town, they left behind people working on the Hill, civil servants, civil servants in post offices which, of course, they didn't decide that they should check even though they handled the mail. These were a bunch of cowardly acts by a bunch of people who were scared of one thing: their own butts. It reminded me of every politician the day before an election. They split and they split fast.
MAY: Is that a bipartisan naughty?
BECKEL: Absolutely. Absolutely.
MAY: All right. Just checking, for a second.
CARLSON: I feel you are suckering me in because I'm agreeing with you.
PRESS: Almost out of time, I'm going to give my nicest award of the year -- My hero: Jim Jeffords.
CARLSON: Oh my word.
PRESS: There's a man of principle, a man who stands up for what he believes in.
CARLSON: Principle? He ran as a Republican and ran away. He is the least interesting person ever to be elected for the Senate.
PRESS: He didn't run away. To quote Ronald Reagan, "his party ran away from him." Doesn't believe in anything the guy stands for anymore.
CARLSON: He just ran as a Republican like twenty minutes ago.
PRESS: The most courageous man in Washington.
BECKEL: The Republicans would take him back tomorrow. Congratulations, Jim Jeffords and merry Christmas.
CARLSON: Well, that would be their problem, or that his book is going to tank. It's already tanked.
PRESS: All right. On that kind note, we are going to take a break. Cliff May, thank you for coming in. Naughty or nice, merry Christmas.
MAY: Merry Christmas.
PRESS: Same here. Bob Beckel, all right, always good to have you back.
When we come back, folks, here's the big moment. Look under your Christmas tree. There may be a present there from me or Tucker. Yes, we are going to play Santa Claus when we come back and hand out some of our favorite gifts to some of our favorite people. And I have got the perfect gift for Tucker.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PRESS: Now of course, Tucker and I prefer to receive gifts rather than give them, but we couldn't resist giving a couple of gifts this year to two of our favorite people. My first gift goes to the man that Bob Beckel just called the worst attorney general since John Mitchell -- of course which I would agree, and I'm talking about of course the present attorney general, J. Edgar Ashcroft.
My present to Attorney General Ashcroft is a copy of the constitution. You know, Tucker, it's not a very big book. It wouldn't take John Ashcroft long to read it, but if he did he would see that nowhere in it does it say that during a time of war the constitution is suspended.
CARLSON: That will pass with no comment from me, because it's ludicrous.
You know, Bill, at Christmas time you count your blessings, and one of the blessings I've been counting this year is that Bill Clinton is no longer with us.
PRESS: Oh yes, he is!
CARLSON: He's off traveling the world, collecting hundreds of thousands for speeches, meeting new friends. So this year, my present goes to Bill Clinton, and this is with real gratitude and hope -- and they're airline tickets, Bill. They're to no place in particular, they're to somewhere far away, and they are given in the hope that he'll use them and continue to travel the world and stay out of Washington.
PRESS: I got news for you, Bill Clinton ain't never going away.
(CROSSTALK)
PRESS: My gift goes to the mystery man in Washington. He's been a mystery man unfortunately since September 11. So, to Vice President Dick Cheney, my gift is his freedom! Out of the bunker, Dick Cheney! Free at last! Free at last! Let him go back to the White House, Tucker. They're not fooling anybody, we know he's still running the country no matter where he is.
CARLSON: That's fine with me. Free Dick Cheney. There's a bumper sticker.
And my present, the only present I'll give him, goes to John Walker, the Marine County Taliban.
PRESS: More tickets.
CARLSON: No, it's not! In fact, I stole a page from your play book, Bill, and I plan to give John Walker the constitution of the United States. Article III, section III, treason against the United States shall consist only of levying war against them or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. He can meditate on this in his cell at solitary at Leavenworth. Good for him.
PRESS: Now, Tucker, for you. I have to tell you, you know, for a whole year, Tucker, first in "THE SPIN ROOM," now on CROSSFIRE, I've been listening to your whining. I keep asking you, do you want any cheese and crackers with your wine?
CARLSON: Bill, I'm convincing you, by the way.
PRESS: Now you can, Tucker. Look at this. This from the CROSSFIRE winery, is the Carlson wine. Can we see this right there? OK, Tucker, I think it's coming up right now. But Carson wine -- so keep this wine at home, Tucker, and not on the set, OK?
CARLSON: Speaking of whining, you know, last year, Bill, you did the most reckless thing in journalism, you wrote a predictions column. Yes, you did! Let me just read one line. "In the end, it was close, but Al Gore and Joe Lieberman carried the day, and George Bush limped back to Austin. The Bush dynasty will have to wait until another day." At the bottom, "dear reader," quote, "save this column. If I'm wrong, I'll eat it on CROSSFIRE. Well, you know, some of your readers, Bill -- and I don't count myself among them normally -- did save the column. And I'm presenting it to you to eat.
PRESS: But remember, Al Gore won the election!
CARLSON: Oh, it's the lamest thing I've ever heard!
PRESS: Hey, folks, it's our last show before Christmas, so merry Christmas. Happy New Year, happy holidays from all of us here at CROSSFIRE. I'm Bill Press.
CARLSON: Merry Christmas from the right. I'm Tucker Carlson. Have a wonderful holiday. We'll see you when we get back.
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