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CNN Crossfire

Interview With Enaas Sarsour; Interview With Kelly McCann

Aired January 09, 2002 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ENAAS SARSOUR, SEARCHED PASSENGER: It's really humiliating that you had -- that I had to take it off in front of everyone else.

TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Tonight, are airport screeners going too far? And several Clinton cabinet members set their sights on elected office. Should they run on their ties to Bill Clinton or run away from them?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, searched passenger Enaas Sarsour; Kelly McCann, CEO of Crucible Security; and in Denver, aviation analyst Michael Boyd. And later, former Clinton White House secretary Joe Lockhart and Republican strategist Charley Black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. They said air travel would never be the same after 9/11. It turns out they weren't kidding. Tightest security has meant longer lines. In some cases, it has meant fewer clothes.

On Saturday, 75-year-old John Dingell of Michigan, the longest serving member in the House of Representatives was told by an airport screener to drop his trousers. In the name of security, he did. The screener found nothing more than an artificial hip, but the episode raised the question was it really necessary? Is airport security out of control? That's one of our debates tonight. We'll speak to two security experts in a moment, but first we go to Enaas Sansour, an observant Muslim woman who was made recently to remove her traditional head garb by a security screener at the airport -- Bill Press.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Ms. Sarsour, good evening.

I believe you are the youngest person ever to appear as a guest on CROSSFIRE and we welcome you.

SARSOUR: Thank you.

PRESS: Last December 18, you went to Baltimore to catch a flight. Can you tell us first what happened when you got to airport security? SARSOUR: Well, they -- I went through security and everything seemed to be fine, until I grabbed my bag at the end. And security guard stopped me. And he's like, "Hey, you need to take that off." I'm like, "Excuse me? Why do I need to take it off?" He's like, "Well, you need to take that off." And by the time I said, "No, I don't need to take that off," I was surrounded by the armed people. And I was very frightened.

PRESS: Let me ask you quickly, did -- you set off the alarm when you went through the screen?

SARSOUR: No, everything was fine. I did -- nothing alarmed. I took off my watch, everything else. Everything was fine.

PRESS: Well here's what maybe we don't understand. Is -- like our producer here at CROSSFIRE when he went through security, had to take off his baseball cap. So why was it so traumatic for you to have to remove your veil? I mean, what was the big deal?

SARSOUR: Well, the big deal was that I had to take it off in public in front of everyone. And it was very humiliating. And I felt very degraded because the fact that they, you know, they didn't say it in a nice way either. They're like, "Hey, you need to take that off." If they took me to a separate room to check, I wouldn't have minded, but the fact that it was in front of everyone, it was, you know, real bad. I didn't feel -- as an American, actually I was born and raised here, I feel I should have the same rights.

I mean, I understand the new, you know, heightened security and all, but they went too far by just stopping me in front of everyone like that.

CARLSON: Now Miss Sarsour, you're seeking an apology. I understand you were humiliated, but surely you don't think they intended to humiliate you? I mean, the purpose of asking you to remove your head garb was for security, was it not?

SARSOUR: Yes, it was for security reasons. And as I said, I understand the new security measures and all, but they should have taken me to a separate room and not just, you know, surrounded me with guns just like that. It really frightened me. So I just took it off, you know, out of fear.

CARLSON: OK, but I mean, presumably, you're not the only one this has happened to. As Bill just said, this happened to our producer. This happens, as far as I know, to you know, every 100th person who goes through security, gets hassled in a tiny way. And as a result, air travel's safer. Not a good trade-off?

SARSOUR: Well, as I was saying, the security new measures are fine. And take off shoes, take off your hat, that's fine. But again, the scarf is part of my religion. And you know, it's just like telling a nun to take, you know, actually there was a nun in front me. And she was covered from head to toe. And they said nothing to her. I just don't know why I was singled out like that.

PRESS: All right, we're going to continue talking about this issue, Enaas Sarsour, but thank you so much for starting us off.

SARSOUR: Thank you.

PRESS: Thank you for joining us tonight on CROSSFIRE.

SARSOUR: Thanks.

PRESS: Kelly, I'm sorry Kelly McCann, let me start with you. I mean, so we hear this story, sad as it is. And then, just the other day, John Dingell, senior Congress -- member of Congress over at National Airport, is told to drop his trousers. I mean, they do take him to a private room to drop his trousers, thank God, so the whole world didn't have to see him standing there in his boxer shorts.

But wouldn't you have to admit, let's take the case of John Dingell. That guy, whoever made him do that, was way over the line and ought to be just fired on the spot.

KELLY MCCANN, CEO, CRUCIBLE SECURITY: I'm not sure. What you're seeing is basically an undereducated, poorly trained, fearful security force, who are fearful of losing their job, employ judgment at the level commensurate with their quality to the security services. I mean that's what you're seeing.

So do you want consistency or not? The other night, I watched a show. And you were arguing against racial profiling. Here's a case that it was not racial profiling that made the congressman drop his trousers.

In this case right here, I ought to disagree with you. I don't think it's a sad story. It's unfortunate that this young lady had to remove her head gear. It may have been perceived humiliating by her, but certainly not by the people here in America who are standing in line behind her. They weren't -- they didn't feel her humiliation. So it's unfortunate, but not sad.

PRESS: Well, I guess what I'm looking for is judgment. We talked about a producer that has to take off his baseball cap. My wife who looks less like a terrorist than anybody I know, had to take off her shoes at San Francisco Airport.

And let me read you something that Lucianne Goldberg, no liberal, had to say in one of her experiences, recent experience, several I guess, at the airport recently. She's quoted in "National Review" saying "if another airline prison matron wanna-be sticks her fingers into my cleavage, she's going to draw back a nub." You say they're undereducated, but shouldn't we expect, you know?

MCCANN: Yes, you should. Bill, you absolutely should...

PRESS: To make some rational decisions?

MCCANN: And tell me why we haven't taken people to task who say that they don't need to be high school graduates? Why is that? I don't agree with any test. There's a level of judgment that commensurate with education and with quality training. And that is not the case with the security forces we have on the job right now. It is not the case.

PRESS: Get to that next.

CARLSON: Michael Boyd, welcome.

MICHAEL BOYD, AVIATION ANALYST: Thank you.

CARLSON: One thing we learned about John Dingell, it turns out his sense of humor is more appealing than his politics; 75-year-old man, senior member of House, told to drop his trousers. This was his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN DINGELL (D), MICHIGAN: They padded me down like a prize steer at a county fair. They were thorough. And I think the ordinary citizen should feel that if a member of Congress gets his pants taken off, that there's some effort to see to the safety of the traveling public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Now Dingell's a powerful guy in Washington, anyway. People in the House don't want to fool with him. Even he has to go through this. He finds it reassuring. Why don't you?

BOYD: Well, let me -- let's start with this. I would agree with you. I think Congressman Dingell certainly is a dangerous person, but only when he's on the floor of the House. Otherwise, he is like the rest of us.

The problem, I think Kelly summed it up, the problem we have is there are no real standards in terms of security training. And worse, this jive aviation security bill, not even a high school diploma is going to be required, isn't going to improve it. I mean, I went through an airport and they made me put my ticket through the magnetometer, some Bozo did, thinking that maybe a high fare might hijack an airplane or something.

CARLSON: Well, wait a second, Michael Boyd. There is at least one standard, that we're all familiar with, and that is when you go through the magnetometer and you beep, the guard has to find out why. Now Dingell goes through and it beeped. He had metal on him. And isn't it the responsibility of the screener to find out where the metal is?

BOYD: No, I totally agree with that. I think Kelly summed it up as an unfortunate thing, but where do you identify a threat? I mean, and did they know he was a congressperson?

I mean there's an issue here. If you know it's Congressman Dingell, who's been in Congress longer than most of us have been alive, you know, I don't agree with the guy's politics, but dragging him into back room, taking off his shoes, taking off his socks, telling him to drop trout, I don't think made us any safer. And I think the real issue here is, where is the standards, like that young lady who was just on? True, that garb of hers was a religious garb. They should've had some sensitivity of whether it should be taken off where it should be done. Our security is not out of control. It's just not in control. And I don't see it changing under the federal government.

PRESS: All right, but I want to ask about this -- perhaps a change. We pass an airport security bill. So I thought we're going to have improvements in airport security. Maybe we're going to have -- they're going to be federal employees.

BOYD: Right.

PRESS: And they're going to better training and maybe better qualified. And now we find out that the Department Transportation says oh no, they don't have to have high school diplomas. In other words, we're going to recycle the people who are there, and just make them federal employees. Tell me, is this progress?

MCCANN: No. And remember that prior to September 11, and all the things after that, the Department of Transportation was kind of a sleepy organization, defined by their ability to handle logistics, and infrastructure, and really not that terribly involved in terrorism.

Now I'll go back to what Mike said, which is a crystalline point that people need to hang on, which is security is not out of control. It is not in control. Good security is redundant. It is definitely offensive, not defensive. It is dynamic and it changes, based on what we get for threat information. And lastly, it's expensive. And people have got to wear that.

If we're not willing to pay the money to replace these machines that have been in airports for over two decades, then you can't have high technology that's going to say, no that's a hip replacement and not a glock.

PRESS: All right, just -- related topic to this. Today, the FAA finally, four months after 9/11 issues regulations regarding flight training schools. We just saw over the weekend, where a kid takes a plane from a flight training school...

MCCANN: Sure.

PRESS: Crashes into the Bank of America building in downtown Tampa. They say, for example, you can't -- nobody can get the keys. Pilots' kids can never be in a plane alone. You know, there are some other instructions.

Double question, I guess. One, wouldn't you agree that private aviation is a massive hole in airport security so far? And two, do you think these regulations do anything at all to fix it? Or is it just window dressing?

MCCANN: I don't agree that it's a massive hole. And the reason is, as you saw, the damage done by a light aircraft was virtually minimal. Now if you get up to the G-3, G-4 level, where there's higher fuel cell level, you're asking for higher level of sophistication that is normally protected better.

They -- it requires a different level of sophistication to fly that. You'd have to have time, unsupervised time to make it into a bomb. So you know, you have to kind of put where is parity? You know what I'm saying? And that's, I think, what Mike's after is, "Yeah, you're right. Where are we trying to find -- what's the water's highest level?" That's what we have to get do.

CARLSON: Now Michael Boyd, you heard -- I think you heard Bill Press just a moment ago beating up on the poor and uneducated, snobbishly dismissing people without high school diplomas as incapable of being adequate airport screeners. Isn't it true though, you don't need a high school diploma to be in the Marine Corps there?

BOYD: That's wrong, you do.

CARLSON: Is that true?

BOYD: You absolutely do. You're exactly wrong.

CARLSON: Well, it is true that you don't need a high school diploma. Actually, I read just a moment ago, Kelly McCann, that you do not need a high school diploma to be in other branches of the armed services?

BOYD: Other branches.

CARLSON: So you can defend the United States, but you can't be an airport screener?

BOYD: Well, that's a non sequitur. Congress came across with an act that they were going to improve and professionalize security. We want people who are trained. Now they're saying if you work for Argenbright and stared at a screen for a year, you're suddenly an educated person.

We need people who can think, who can make rational judgments. That's not happening today. And remember, the training they're going to get under this bill is 40 hours. I got five times that much from American Airlines 30 years ago to learn how to throw bags. So we're not moving in the right direction.

MCCANN: Also, just jump in for a second, the thing you've got to do, and I didn't mean to jump on you.

CARLSON: No, not at all.

MCCANN: But the truth is that those jobs, that those people who are accepted into the service without high school educations or GEDs are not at a level commensurate with the public safety. They're good jobs. You see what I'm saying?

CARLSON: I suppose the point is whether or not someone has a GED strikes me as not necessarily relevant. As you said, it's the judgment.

MCCANN: It's the judgment.

CARLSON: Can this person discern who's a threat who's not?

PRESS: But they're more likely to exercise if they have a high school degree.

MCCANN: Board of education, that's exactly right, because it shows a stick-to-it-iveness that they will stick to a program.

CARLSON: Well, that's -- based on what is required to get a GED, that's an awfully hopeful statement, I have to say.

PRESS: Tucker, I hate to you, it's is 3 to 1. And I'm going to tell you, gentlemen, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is over. Kelly McCann, thank you so much for joining us. Michael Boyd...

BOYD: Thank you.

PRESS: Michael Boyd, I'm sorry. Good to have you back on CROSSFIRE.

BOYD: Thank you, sir.

PRESS: And when we come back, a half a dozen former Bill Clinton staffers are now running for public office. Should Tucker be scared? And are they running from Bill Clinton? Or for Bill Clinton? We'll get into it, when we come back. More CROSSFIRE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT REICH (D), RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, MASSACHUSETTS: I believe that my background and my experience and my skills can be very, very important for getting this Commonwealth back on track.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: And there is a new candidate for governor of Massachusetts announced today, former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, who joins Janet Reno, Bill Richardson, Andrew Cuomo, Erskine Bowles, Rahm Emanuel, and other former Clinton staffers running for office on their own.

In addition, of course, to Hillary Clinton, who's already there. What's going on? Did Bill Clinton send his flock out like missionaries to convert the heathen? Will we soon be up to our navels in former Clintonites?

Republican strategist Charlie Black says, "I hope not." Former Clinton press Secretary Joe Lockhart, who has not yet filed for any office, says, "What's the problem, Tucker?"

CARLSON: I'll tell you what the problem is, Joe. Good evening, by the way.

JOE LOCKHART, FMR. CLINTON PRESS SECRETARY: Good evening.

CARLSON: Partial list: Robert Reich, Janet Reno, Bill Richardson, Erskine Bowles, Rahm Emanuel, Andrew Cuomo, all Clinton veterans popping up like poisonous mushrooms around this nation. My question to you is, when is it going to end? Clinton gives 14 farewell addresses. Even now, a year later, the Clinton administration is not over. Isn't it time to euthanize it? Isn't that the humane thing to do?

LOCKHART: Listen, the Clinton administration is over, except in sort of the fantasies of the right wing in America who want to keep there this nightmare that they've endured for 10 years going, for some reason.

CARLSON: Nine.

LOCKHART: Well, I've never been able to understand it. Let's hope they can put it to rest.

CARLSON: I'll explain it to you in a minute.

LOCKHART: But there are people. You know, it's listen -- it's these people are running in their own states or in their own districts, based on what's good for their states or districts. It's a diverse group of people. You take Rahm Emanuel, who has a great record on crime, community policing. Look at the record. He can run on that, on healthcare, things like that. And you take, you know, Bob Reich to an Erskine Bowles. They don't -- they are not clones of Bill Clinton, but they embrace Democratic values. That's why they're going to do well.

CARLSON: I love this. This is one of -- really one of the great fallacies to rise out of that period that you can run, on the good economy of the Clinton years. And it was a good economy. And you won't have little bits of Clinton sticking to you.

Al Gore tried this very same thing, just to run on the good parts of the Clinton record. And yet over his head, the entire campaign, you watched it, you know, was Monica Lewinsky and all the other sordid details of the administration. You cannot separate the you.

LOCKHART: Listen, you can talk about the presidential election. I'll look at the last three congressional elections.

CARLSON: But there's a theme here.

LOCKHART: Because that's what we're talking about here. And the Republicans said we're going to demonize Bill Clinton. And in each and every one of them, they lost seats. It's going to happen again if they want to run this campaign. I hope they run an anti-Clinton campaign because they'll lose again.

PRESS: Charlie Black, I think I'm the only member of this panel to have ever run for political office. Have you? CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I have not.

PRESS: OK. Good. I ran for insurance commissioner in California. I worked for four years for Jerry Brown. And do you know what? When I moved around the state of California, running for insurance commissioner, not one person asked me anything about Jerry Brown.

What they wanted to know what is what was I going to do if I got into office for the people of California. And you're a smart strategist. Wouldn't you have to agree that for -- whether it's Erskine Bowles, or Janet Reno, or Robert Reich, or Rahm Emanuel, what people are going to want to know is for Bill Richardson, what are you doing for New Mexico? What are you going to do for North Carolina, right?

BLACK: Well, that's probably right, Bill. And look, Jerry Brown won a lot of elections. Maybe you should have run on his coattails.

PRESS: Yes, I lost.

BLACK: But listen, the fact is that some of these folks are very good public servants, even though they're liberal Democrats, most of whom don't fit those states. But they don't want to run on Bill Clinton's record or Bill Clinton's coattails. With the possible exception of Secretary Reich, I guess Clinton might still be popular in a place like Massachusetts. You're not going to see these folks running any Clinton endorsements ads.

PRESS: Actually, the one who probably will run the farthest from Bill Clinton is Robert Reich, based on some of his previous statements. But let's look at the Clinton record. I mean, if you -- if they're running on Clinton record, it is eight years of the greatest prosperity this country has ever known. Al Gore got more votes than George Bush did. So what's wrong with identifying with Bill Clinton? It's a proud record. Take away the personal stuff, the record is a proud record.

BLACK: Let's just summarize quickly. Lying, obstruction of justice.

PRESS: I said take away the personal stuff.

[Laughter.]

BLACK: That's not -- listen.

PRESS: They're not going to blame Monica.

BLACK: Obstruction of justice and breaking the law is not personal. A lot of the American people take it personal.

PRESS: They're going to blame Bill Richardson? They're going to blame Monica on Bill Richardson? Come on.

BLACK: Clinton is not popular on a policy basis in most of these states we're talking about either. Again Massachusetts, maybe. Rahm Emanuel's a good candidate. He's running in a Democratic district. I think Rahm can stand on his own two feet and frankly might win.

But in New Mexico, Florida, North Carolina, Bill Clinton's policies are negative. He's not going to show up there. Listen, if Erskine Bowles wants to have Bill Clinton in the campaign, I'll personally pay for the charter jet to take him down there and all the potato chips he can eat on the way, if he'll just go in and campaign for both.

CARLSON: Amen. Now Joe, I didn't want to bring this up because I know it's probably a sore subject, but I can't help it, because it's in the news. There's a fundraiser tonight in this very city for Jeb Bush, the President's brother, governor of Florida.

His challenger, you know, is former Attorney General Janet Reno. I've spoken to many Democrats about this, some Democrats from the state of Florida, to a person, upset about the fact she's running. They point out she's a terrible candidate. She's awkward. She's physically ill. There's the Elian problem. Will you admit here, because I know you think it, that it's a mistake that she's running? She's crowding out decent candidates?

LOCKHART: Well, I tell you, I know a lot of people you talk to. And they all have their own opinions. Let me give you two pieces of information that might counter that. One is that she decided to run. And a lot of Democrats decided it wasn't worth running because she'd beat them.

And another is George Bush decided to break his prohibition on fundraising. And who's he worried about? He's worried about making sure his brother gets re-elected, to raise money for him. So if there was nothing to worry about, she's such a terrible candidate, why is he out there raising money right now for Jeb?

CARLSON: Joe, the end of your nose is turning red. You know why? Because I know you don't believe that. I know that a lot of candidates got out. And some, including the former ambassador to Hanoi got out. Pete Peterson would have been a great candidate, but got out for other reasons, apparently.

But you're evading my question, which is, do is think honestly, and look me in the eye and tell me that, that she has any shot of winning? Because if you do, you are unique among Democratic political people I know.

LOCKHART: Well, you've got to broaden your circle. You've got to meet more Democrats.

CARLSON: Well, do you want to see...

LOCKHART: Of course she does. And if she didn't have any chance of winning, the President wouldn't be at a Jeb Bush fundraiser tonight raising money, because that indicates.

CARLSON: It's his brother. I mean... LOCKHART: That indicates that...

BLACK: It's his brother. And we don't know if she's going to be the nominee or not. Jeb Bush is going to run.

Janet Reno has got three problems. One, while Bill Clinton is being a scofflaw, she wouldn't even investigate him. Secondly, while domestic terrorism was blossoming in this country, she didn't do anything about that. And third is that 100 percent of Cuban-Americans will come to the polls to vote against her, because of her ruthless treatment of Elian's family.

LOCKHART: Well, let me jump in there one second, because you can make political arguments on the first and third. You're wrong, but you're allowed to make them. But to sit here and say that Janet Reno and the Clinton administration and Justice Department did nothing on domestic terrorism is wrong. And you shouldn't say it. You shouldn't play politics with this, because the reason, listen, listen.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: ... the FBI wanted to investigate some of these. And the administration said no.

LOCKHART: It's not true.

BLACK: Politically not correct.

LOCKHART: But secondly, it's going to come back, I think, to hurt Republicans. Because one of the reasons why the President has to the standing he does now is because Democrats, Republicans have agreed that this isn't about politics. It's more important than politics. But if you want to have it both ways, it becomes dangerous.

PRESS: All right, Charlie...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: I bet you have tapes of CROSSFIRE that establish the Clinton administration did not do...

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: They may have made that argument, but they lost it on this show.

But I want to talk about this fundraiser. I'm glad that Tucker raised it, because I think I find it curious that this big race in Virginia, George Bush does nothing. Big race in New Jersey, George Bush does nothing. Big race in Houston, George Bush does nothing.

And yet, coincidentally, the first time he comes out of the box to work for a candidate, not just Jeb Bush but also for Katherine Harris, is tonight. And it's Florida. It's payback time for delivering Florida after Al Gore won the election.

BLACK: Wait a minute, let me get this straight. That's what tonight's all about.

CARLSON: OK, we just have a short period. And it's so ludicrous, it's going to take a while.

BLACK: About a quarter of a mile down road for own your brother is payback time for?

PRESS: And Katherine Harris and all those other guys running down there.

BLACK: I didn't know it was a Katherine Harris fundraiser. I didn't hear about that.

PRESS: It's a private one.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: It's not true George Bush did nothing on New Jersey, Virginia, and Houston.

PRESS: OK.

BLACK: He signed letters and did a lot to support those candidates.

CARLSON: You know when you get a question like that, Charlie Black, it takes a long time to tack add the little pieces down. ' PRESS: It's impossible to answer because it's so good.

CARLSON: We're unfortunately out of time. Thank you, Joe Lockhart, both very much. And next, under fire, Dick Cheney. Has the vice president of the United States become a cave man? Should he should emerge into the light of day? When we return, Bill's opinion and also the truth. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And there's no doubt in my mind that he is not only one of the great governors of Florida's history, he's one of the great governors of our nation. And he deserves a second term.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: That was President Bush just a little over an hour ago, for his first political fundraiser since 9/11. He was out there raising money tonight in Washington for his brother, Jeb, governor of Florida.

Tucker, what I want to say is it seems to me that now that the President is back into politics, that it's time, after four months in exile, it's time to let Dick Cheney back in the White House. Don't you think he is...

CARLSON: I can see why you feel that way, because if this were Al Gore and Bill Clinton, Al Gore would be out there every single day, talking about his contribution to the war on terrorism, the things that he's doing for the administration.

But you know the difference? This is key. This is the key, is that Dick Cheney doesn't want to be president. So he's content to simply do his part. And it's a very valuable part. And he doesn't necessarily need to do it in front of television cameras.

PRESS: Well, I don't think that came anywhere close to answering the question. Don't you think that Dick Cheney ought to be allowed back in? And maybe, Tucker, do you think the reason he's not is because what we just learned today that the Justice Department has announced a criminal investigation into Enron. And nobody, I would say not that, take it back, nobody closer to Enron then George Bush and Dick Cheney. Maybe they're hiding for a reason.

CARLSON: You know what? I must say this is -- I hope you keep pushing this, because you will wind up with all the Kennedy assassination buffs and all the lunatics who study Stonehenge. This is a conspiracy theory. There is no connection between the two.

I'm glad they're investigating Enron. I'm glad it's a criminal investigation. If in fact, there were misdeeds by Enron. But that's the story. Enron, obviously, went bankrupt because of you know bad things it did. Nothing to do with the administration.

PRESS: Dick Cheney meets with the Enron people six times. Announced today. Dick Cheney meets with Ken Lay, the only person.

CARLSON: That is so...

PRESS: Tucker, I'm going to be the prophet in this. I'm going to be the first one to raise Enron as major bush scandal.

CARLSON: But you're not the first one. Every -- that's the Democratic talking point. And I must say, I find it amazing coming from someone who spent eight years, complaining about Whitewater. Saying, "Oh, it's a pointless investigation."

PRESS: It is.

CARLSON: "It's partisan."

PRESS: It was.

CARLSON: And now you hear Democrats crowing for an independent counsel on this.

PRESS: This makes...

CARLSON: It's outrageous.

PRESS: Nobody's asked for that. This makes Whitewater look like peanuts. I want to tell you something else about Cheney. This article I got in the mail, thanks to a viewer, this is Dick Cheney. Is his helicopter going to trap Maryland or going to the eastern shore to go duck hunting?

CARLSON: Yes.

PRESS: That's where the bunker is. He's in a duck...

CARLSON: And may I say...

PRESS: Shooting ducks, shooting pheasants.

CARLSON: As someone who has duck hunted in that very town, may I say, "Amen." It's a much more appealing way to relax than golf. We're smoking cigars. Duck hunting is a noble thing to do. It's fun. And I say duck hunt away, Dick Cheney. Good for you.

PRESS: I say get back in the White House and do your job. Free Dick Cheney. That's my bumper sticker. We want your e-mails, folks. Don't forget, e-mail us at crossfire@cnn.com. And from the left, I'm Bill Press. Good-night for CROSSFIRE. Free Dick Cheney.

CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for an even better, is it possible, yes it is, CROSSFIRE. We'll see you then.

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