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CNN Crossfire

The Fight Over the Fight; Is Democratic Chairman Part of Another Enron?

Aired February 19, 2002 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Tonight, the fight over the fight. Washington, D.C. is a step closer to granting Mike Tyson a license to box. Was it the right thing to do? And could the national chairman of the Democratic party be part of another Enron?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak. In the crossfire, boxing promoter Rock Newman and Maryland State Attorney Doug Gansler. And later, Democratic strategist Bob Beckel and Republican strategist Charlie Black.

NOVAK: Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Like many politicians, Mike Tyson may find that our nation's capital is a terrific place to fight. Nevada refused to approve his challenge of heavyweight champion Lennox Lewis. So did Texas and New York. The Georgia Boxing Commission said yes, but the governor of Georgia said absolutely not, as did just about every other governor.

So bad boy Tyson had to find a non-state with a non-governor. It's the District of Columbia and Mayor Anthony Williams. Today, the D.C. Boxing and Wrestling Commission voted 3 to 0 to move forward with a license for Tyson, setting a public hearing for a March trial. Mayor Williams just loves the idea. Unless Tyson bites somebody in the meantime, he is headed for a June 8 heavyweight championship fight at the MCI Center, just a mile from these studios. I'll certainly be there.

Bill Press, will you?

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: No, actually. Rock Newman, you know, I live in this city. I love this town. We had a bad reputation under Marion Barry. Under Tony Williams, we're coming back big time. Why do we want to ruin it all by inviting this bum to bring his ugly act to the District?

ROCK NEWMAN, BOXING PROMOTER: Oh, my Lord, to think that a fight involving Mike Tyson could ruin this great city, I think, is an overstatement in the highest proportions. I am proud of the D.C. Boxing and Wrestling Commission for showing courage to step outside of the box and stop the politically correct lynching that has taken place with Mike Tyson, where other jurisdictions are just simply falling in line with what Nevada did. I respect greatly the Nevada Commission and their right to make the decision that they made. These other commissions who summarily reject him, I think, is wrong. And D.C. has stood up and said this is the nation's capitol. We're going to be independent of thought. We're going review the facts for ourselves and render a just decision. And I hope that that decision allows Mike Tyson to continue his career.

PRESS: Well, on the part of D.C., I'm not sure it was courage or maybe it was greed or maybe it was stupidity, but I mean, look at this guy's record. I mean, he served three years for rape. He served a year for road rage. He was suspended for a year for biting Evander Holyfield's ear. And you had that big hassle back in Las Vegas.

I mean, when he's up for a license, then he gets in this rumble with a guy. I mean, what about the role model that you're putting in front of D.C. kids? Is this the kind of role model for professional athletes you want to put up? You don't even represent him.

NEWMAN: I think that Charles Barkley said correctly several years ago, "I am not a role model. A kid's mother and father, and their aunt and uncle, and their school teachers should be role models." To hold Mike Tyson out as some special person in society is just all wrong.

This is boxing. It's not badminton. And you know, they talk about boxing getting another black eye. Boxing has been blind for so long, I don't know that it really can have another black eye. I think Tyson should be allowed to fight.

NOVAK: Doug Gansler, in case our viewers have forgotten, you were the prosecuting attorney that convicted Mike Tyson of road rage, but he served his time. In fact, there is no outstanding indictment against him. He's not under arrest. He's not fleeing from any kind of apprehension. He's a free man. Why in the world not let him fight?

DOUG GANSLER, MARYLAND STATE ATTORNEY: Well, the other states, as Rock said, decided not to do it. And the question was an economic one versus a moral one. And I would suggest that the nation's capital ought to be held to a higher standard than those states. And the question is, is the moral fiber of the nation's capital subject to sale to the highest bidder? And I would argue not.

I think Bill's point about a role model is precisely right. The price of a role model for our children is priceless. And he should not be -- Mike Tyson should not be the role model. Remember, this is a city -- the irony here is that this boxing fight will take place in the MCI Center, the same place that the Washington Wizards play. This is a city that was trying to change its image as a war capital, the crime capital, change the name of its professional basketball team from the Bullets to the Wizards.

NOVAK: As a season ticket holder, I was very much opposed to that change.

GANSLER: Right.

NOVAK: But you know, I don't know if you're a boxing fan. I've been a boxing fan since I was a little kid. And that is a very brutal sport. And people like it because it's a brutal sport. And I just want you to hear what Terrence Moore, a columnist from Atlanta said on CNN last week. Let's listen to this

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRENCE MOORE, "ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": No one has ever held church in a boxing arena. This is about boxing. This is a cruel and vicious sport. Mike Tyson is a cruel and vicious person. Perfect fit for an imperfect sport.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: That's the truth. You don't have panty waists fighting, do you?

MOORE: No, but it's a sport. It's still a sport and it needs to be held to a respectable level. And we had Mohammed Ali was thought outside the box, but he wasn't a criminal. He wasn't a convicted rapist. He wasn't committing assault and road rage during the middle of the day and doing all these other things. There's a line. Mike Tyson constantly crossed the line.

NEWMAN: Well, when you talk about sport, you know, it always surprises me, and I think we need to put something in context. Let me give you a little juxtaposition here. The world of professional hockey, I think this young man plays hockey. I'm part owner of a hockey team. We roar and cheer when they brutalize each other with their fists in the mouth, and in the nose, and hit with sticks. We cheer and we roar it. And we hold them up as valiant gladiators and heroes.

When Mike Tyson misbehaves, we want to throw him in the ocean. There is a double standard there. Let's go back to the District of Columbia for a second. This city is fighting to host the 2012 Olympics. Properly regulated, properly administered, properly handled, this fight would be one of the biggest international events since the Olympics. And if it's done right here in the District, it gives us a leg up on the competition for the Olympics in 2012.

PRESS: Pardon me, nice try, but I think anybody watching knows the difference between a man with a criminal record and a hockey player, who is actively engaged in the sport, and probably has to in the penalty box if he does anything wrong. But here's what I -- we've just been jumping around this. Let me get right to it. This is all about money. Tourism is down.

NEWMAN: I would take issue.

PRESS: Tourism is down.

NEWMAN: I would take issue. PRESS: The hotels are empty, the restaurants are empty. Anything to bring dollars in. And so they throw all principles out the window and say money, money, money.

NEWMAN: I don't think at all that that the Boxing Commission is doing.

PRESS: Oh, Rock.

NEWMAN: I think that what they're doing is saying we're going to judge this case on the merits. And let me tell you something. If it had not been for that incident in that pre-fight press conference, Tyson would have been approved everywhere else in the country. And that particular instant has happened several times in boxing before, and should not nullify him from being able to fight.

Let's be real about it, if it had not been for that incident, he would have gotten voted in Nevada, I am sure, unanimously.

GANSLER: But the interesting thing about Nevada is, Nevada has casinos. And they say we're willing to have casinos. We're willing to sell our moral fiber to have casinos to raise our money. Even the District.

PRESS: And it's prostitution.

GANSLER: Exactly, and everything goes even then.

NOVAK: They don't need the money as bad as we do.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: But Doug Gansler, I got a feeling. You're a former All- American lacrosse player from Yale, but I don't think you're a boxing fan. As I look you in the eye, I don't think you're a boxing fan. Do you know, this guy was really one of the great fighters of all time? I loved him when he was a young fighter in his prime. And there's still millions of Americans who will pay $40, $50 for Pay Per View.

NEWMAN: Around the world.

NOVAK: And they will pay big dollars to fill the MCI arena, which only seats 25,000 for boxing. I mean, people want to see that, there's nothing against the law. Boxing is no longer illegal. You don't have to have it on a barge in the Mississippi River. Why not have the barge?

NEWMAN: Well, first of all, he hasn't won a fight in 10 years. And the point -- against a legitimate competitor, and that's why. Because he perpetuates this bad boy image. People are paying to see this person. But the question here is, where should it be? We're not trying to outlaw boxing, we're trying to outlaw Mike Tyson from boxing.

NOVAK: I want you, just a minute, Doug, I want you to listen to a sweet voice person just for a minute and let you retract your previous statement. Let's listen to her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE TYSON, BOXER: I'm not Mother Theresa. And I'm not Charles Manson either, but just treat my equal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: That's fair, isn't it?

GANSLER: Yes, he gets treated more than equally. This guy committed rape and only served three years. He committed assault upon two people, knocked them out in the middle of the day on the street...

PRESS: Yes.

GANSLER: ...and served one year, and got away with all the other cases.

NEWMAN: He has committed crimes. He has paid the time, has done his debt to society. Oftentimes, he'd be victimized by a double standard. I am, again, proud of the Boxing Commission in Washington, D.C. for being independent-minded enough and strong enough to step up and say, "We're going review this on the merits. We're not going to fall lock step with these other commissions."

PRESS: Well, it is not over yet. It is not too late for them to change their minds. I hope they do.

Rock Newman, thanks for being with us tonight.

NEWMAN: Thank you.

PRESS: Doug Gansler, good to have you back on CROSSFIRE. Good fight, gentlemen.

And speaking of dirty fights, Democrats have been throwing Enron mud at Republicans. Now Republicans are throwing Enron mud at Democrats. Will any of it stick? Dirty Enron politics coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: It's not the MCI Center, but it's round two of CROSSFIRE, where we ask, is there anybody in Washington who has not been tarred with the Enron brush? Top White House staff used to work for Enron. Prominent Republican consultants were on the payroll. But many Democratic congressmen and senators also received big contributions and didn't return them. And Terry McAuliffe, DNC chair, is accused of having his own double-Enron problem, by investments in two other bankrupt companies. How much is real? How much will stick? Will anybody survive -- Bob Novak.

NOVAK: Bob Beckel, let's talk about one of those bankrupt companies, Global Crossing, a communications company that blew the bubble up and the bubble was burst. It is a company that Gary Winnick, a golfing buddy of Bill Clinton ran. He gave a million dollars Bill Clinton for his library, a million dollars to the Democratic Party. And he got a $400 million Pentagon contract.

When the company went downhill, he got out nicely, but 2,000 workers were unemployed, thrown out, without any pension, any health benefits. Now you tell me what's the difference between Global Crossing and Enron, except this is a Democratic company and the other was a Republican company?

BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, bad management. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) good investment on his part. Enron, look, you know, we're getting back to the stuff with money, Bob, the FDC reports. The fact is for 20 years, you all beat us up as being the party of big labor. And you all have proudly said...

NOVAK: But just tell me what -- answer my question. What's the difference between those two companies?

BECKEL: Well, plenty. Enron's crooks and they're a bunch of white collar, white trash people who ought to be in jail.

NOVAK: And at Global Crossing, it's not?

BECKEL: No, I think Global Crossing, I think we know about it is, was a bad managed company.

NOVAK: Now let me say...

BECKEL: And so what if they gave money? They gave money to everybody. So what?

NOVAK: Let me tell you about Tony McAuliffe.

PRESS: Terry.

NOVAK: You sound as hypocritical as he does, my old friend, because Tony -- Terry McAuliffe, I'm sorry, he says that the Enron is a matter of the wealthiest people took their money off the table. And the poor got hurt. But he says with his proposition, where he collected $7.9 million for $100,000 investment, while 2,000 employees are on the street, that's just capitalism. Why is the one capitalism and the other terrible greed by Republicans? That's hypocritical, isn't it?

BECKEL: Well, he made $9 million. I said it was a good investment. Is it hypocritical? I guess the question is this. If you look at the difference between Global Crossing going down, and Enron, the fact of the matter is that there are thousands and thousands and thousands of more people affected by Enron. The fact is that there's collusion at the highest levels in that company. And the fact is the Ken Lay ought to do something. All those -- if...

NOVAK: I don't see the difference.

BECKEL: Wait a minute. If they're proved guilty, what I would like to see is upper management of Enron spend time in a maximum security prison next to them black folk that they keep saying at the Houston Country Club are the problem with crime in America.

PRESS: Charlie Black, first of all, I'm a golfer. I want to state for the record that when you play golf once with somebody, you're not a golfing buddy. Gary Winnick played golf once with Bill Clinton.

But let's talk about the difference and help Bob out. The difference, you and I can do it, between Global Crossing and Enron. For Global Crossing, Terry McAuliffe was never on the payroll. He was never on the board. He invested some money in 1997. As Bob says, it was a good investment. He sold it in 1999.

Three years later, the company went bankrupt and those employees went on the line, went out the door, as opposed to Ken Lay, who was selling his stock, knowing the company was going down, right to the last minute, an officer of the company. Isn't the difference between Enron and Global Crossing night and day?

CHARLIE BLACK, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, Bill, in danger of agreeing with you, first of all, it's no honor to play golf with Bill Clinton unless you're trying to learn how to cheat at golf from an expert.

PRESS: Oh, Charlie.

BLACK: But listen, there's wrongdoing at Enron. There's a criminal investigation being done by the Bush administration. I don't know enough about the facts of Global Crossing. If there was wrongdoing, there will be a criminal investigation. And people should be punished if they were criminals in either one.

I got to say, again at the risk of agreeing with you and Bob, that I see no evidence Terry McAuliffe did anything wrong. Maybe some evidence will come out. Terry's wrong on every public policy issue and he leads the wrong party, but I see nothing he did wrong.

PRESS: Well, on public policy, you can disagree. Whether or not he did anything wrong is an interesting question, which I also posed to a gentleman who was sitting right where you're sitting less than two weeks ago, the new chairman of the Republican National Committee, Marc Racicot. Terry McAuliffe was sitting right here. And I asked Chairman Racicot if Terry McAuliffe had done anything wrong. I'd like you to listen to his response. Here he is, Mr. Chairman.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC RACICOT, RNC CHAIRMAN: I know of absolutely nothing that he did wrong. You know, that's one of the things that causes me pause about our political affairs these days is that by insinuation or some kind of innuendo, just because you want to win on a given day, you suggest things that are not supported by the evidence or that you don't believe to be true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Don't you think maybe some members of your party ought to say "enough's enough" and stop throwing this mud around?

BLACK: Well, I think I just did, Bill. I mean, maybe I locked into it, but...

PRESS: Let me ask you...

BLACK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the new chairman, but...

PRESS: ... since you suggested maybe some of your other party members...

BLACK: Let me tell you want people in both parties ought to do. They ought to go ahead and acknowledge that Enron is a business scandal. It's fizzled as a political issue. And if Global Crossing turns out to be a business scandal, that's what it is. So far we have no evidence of wrongdoing by people in either party about Enron.

NOVAK: Well what McAuliffe is guilty of is hypocrisy. That's because he...

PRESS: Why?

NOVAK: Because he made the big killing, the same kind of killing that the people made in Enron. And he says...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Yes, well, you don't care about it because you practiced it yourself, Bob

BECKEL: Well, I'm not sure of that. But go ahead.

NOVAK: Yes, but here's the situation. This Enron is not a Republican company. It's not a conservative company. It's a company that's a predatory company, that played the lobbyist game in Washington, the big time lobbyist game. And now we're finding that they had a strategy all set up if Al Gore won the election.

In "Roll Call" today, they got a horrible memo from Enron called Gore 2000 strategy on how they were going to infiltrate the Gore administration. And you will agree with me that with their money and their finesse, they would have been right inside on the Gore administration, wouldn't they?

BECKEL: Yes, the answer is I agree with -- Bob, wait a second. You know, even my friend Rush Limbaugh, who I consider a great communicator, don't agree with him a lot, are spending days trying to get the Republicans out of this trough. You can't call us a bunch socialists one day, which you've called me and my party many times, and then prostitutes for Enron the next.

NOVAK: Why not?

BECKEL: The fact of the matter is, well maybe you could, Bob, but speaking about hypocrisy -- wait a second, Charlie. The fact of the matter is, should this be a political issue? You're damned right it is. For every year of 20, 30 years I've been in this business, you're jammed big labor down our throats. If this was a big labor scandal, you would be all over it.

The fact is that Enron -- here's the one fact that no one bought. They bought the energy bill that was produced by Dick Cheney.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: No, excuse me. Their own words.

NOVAK: That's nonsense.

BECKEL: Their own words.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: Their top priority is the Kyoto Treaty. So they probably wanted Gore to be elected...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACK: Enough smear and innuendo, Bob. Enough of it.

BECKEL: You want to end it?

NOVAK: Wait, just one second.

BLACK: Nothing to do with Enron.

NOVAK: Mr. Beckel, I just want -- take a look at something up on the screen. The Enron soft money donations, 1999 to 2000, 54 percent to the Republican, 46 percent to the Democrats. The source is "The New York Times."

This is not a Republican scandal. It's not a Democratic scandal. It's a business scandal because they were, like many of the people in Washington, they gave the money to both sides.

BECKEL: That's right and Toto really was in Oz.

NOVAK: Well, answer that.

BECKEL: Well, I'll give the answer...

BLACK: What are you talking about?

BECKEL: Mabel and Abner Andrews in Kokomo, Indiana do not get up and look at FDC reports. The fact is, poll after poll after poll is showing us that what's come back to roost, you've aligned yourselves with business, now you're paying the price for it. You get in the river with hogs, you're going to get dirty.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: You are going to pay a price.

BLACK: Please get to the point. Nothing is wrong.

BECKEL: Of course I do. I'd like to ram it down your throats. That's what politics is about.

BLACK: You've got nothing to ram down our throats.

PRESS: Hold it, Charlie. Let's look at the money. Sure they gave money to both parties. Anybody smart does; 75 percent of it went to Republicans. In the year 2000, Enron gave $113,000 to Bush. $13,000 to Al Gore. Enron is a Republican company that was in bed with the Republicans...

BLACK: That's not...

PRESS: ...and getting everything they wanted from Republicans.

BLACK: When Enron called two Bush cabinet secretaries to say, "Help us out, we're in trouble," they said no. And by the way, we're also...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Out of time. Thank you very much, Charlie. Thank you very much mean spirited, Bob.

BECKEL: Oh, boy. You're still the prince of darkness, pal. I can't help that.

NOVAK: Thank you, gentlemen.

We'll be back with CROSSFIRE news alert, some nifty little stories you might have missed like the British invading Spain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: And now for CROSSFIRE news alert, fascinating little stories you probably but shouldn't have missed. Queen Elizabeth the first and Sir Francis Drake must have been proud. British troops invaded Spain. Well, it was only 20 Royal Marines. And it was all a mistake, thinking they were landing in the British crown colony of Gibraltar. The Spanish weren't even angry, as the two countries continue to negotiate to resolve ownership of Gibraltar, which was seized by the British from Spain 300 years ago.

PRESS: And this startling bit of information from "The Wall Street Journal." The biggest new group of buyers and wearers of pantyhose are men. And not just cross dressers, real macho guys. He wears pantyhose under his business suit, one man says, because it combines underwear, socks and thermals all in one. And he could have added jock strap.

There are, of course, two other advantages. You don't have to choose between boxers and briefs. And husbands and wives can now keep their underwear in the same drawer. How sweet.

NOVAK: Business is bad in most airports because of reduced air travel. But not at McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas. The tightened security causes travelers in Las Vegas to kill time by hitting the slot machines at the nation's seventh largest airport. Business for the one-armed bandits at Las Vegas? So far, a half million jackpot in increased gambling revenues since September 11.

PRESS: Pfizer, the manufacturer of Viagra, is suing to restaurants in New York, demanding that they remove a dish called "Viagra Ceviche" from their menu. Restaurant owners insist the name fits because "Ceviche" has an uplifting effect on its male customers. But Pfizer is not amused. So may we suggest a compromise, why don't they just call it "Bob Dole Ceviche"? I think that gets the point across, Bob? No comment.

NOVAK: You always make a political statement.

PRESS: Bill Press, good night for CROSSFIRE. See you tomorrow night.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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