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CNN Crossfire

Should Andrea Yates Have Received Death Penalty?; Will Tipper Gore Run for Senate?

Aired March 15, 2002 - 19:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Tonight, Andrea Yates gets life in prison. Should she have gotten death? And will Congress once again have a Senator Gore? Will her name be Tipper?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Tucker Carlson. In the crossfire, Terry O'Neill, vice president of the National Organization for Women and attorney Jack Burkman. And later, Democratic strategist Doug Hattaway and Republican strategist Scott Reed.

CARLSON: Good evening and welcome to CROSSFIRE. The verdict is in. It took a Texas jury today less than an hour to decide that Andrea Yates should spend the rest of her life in prison for drowning her five children. Yates escaped the death penalty.

A horrifying murder case has now been closed, but the debate continues. Should Yates have been executed for her crimes? If killing children doesn't qualify a person for the death penalty, what does? Or was Yates, in fact, treated unfairly? Should she be in a hospital bed, rather than a prison cell? Should she put on trial in the first place at all? Some say no, including tonight's guest coach on the left, political consultant and horse breeder, Robert Beckel.

Welcome, Bob.

BOB BECKEL, DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL CONSULTANT: Thank you, Tucker. Nice introduction.

Mr. Burkman, let me ask you a question. You specifically have said you thought that Andrea Yates should have the death penalty.

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: Absolutely.

BECKEL: OK. Let me give you a hypothetical if I could. Assume you had a daughter. And your daughter had four children. Your daughter had a history of depression, had some severe mental problems, not qualifying under Texas law, although that's an oxymoron, Texas law. But let's assume for a moment that it was you daughter and she were standing up there today. Would you sit here tonight and say she should be put to death?

BURKMAN: Probably not, but my personal circumstances are irrelevant... BECKEL: Well...

BURKMAN: And I would probably be overtaken by emotion.

BECKEL: Don't say things are irrelevant.

BURKMAN: Bob, let me tell you something. There has not been a case. You can't find a case in the modern history of American jurisprudence that cries out for the death penalty more than this case. And I'll tell you something else, all this talk about Andrea Yates. Who cares about the fate of Andrea Yates? I watched cable news all day long. I didn't see one commentator, not one, mention the fate or the lives of the five children who drowned.

This case to me is more about the misplaced warped values of our society. You have five children who were drowned. You have all day, three cable channels covering this. Not one commentator mentioned what these children would have become. I mean, in my mind, nothing could be more pathetically irrelevant than what happens to Andrea Yates in prison, whether she's treated well. Of course, she should have got the death penalty.

BECKEL: Well, you say it's irrelevant. This whole debate has been about Andrea Yates and her mental state of mind. Let me make a point to you. Under the statutes in well over half the states in the country, Andrea Yates, given the diagnosis that she had, would have been found insane and incapable of making the decision that day and would have been put in a mental institution, which by the way, I think that makes a lot of sense. She should be in a mental institution. She never should have been on trial.

Wait a minute. Followed by the Harris County prosecutors, who could use some time there. And with all due respect, I'm not so sure you shouldn't follow afterwards.

BURKMAN: I oppose those laws. I think those laws are wrong, but we're in Texas. You have to remember we're in Texas. I tell you something else, you talk about post-partum depression. I know my colleague from NOW -- my opponent rather from NOW is looking for a rallying try for feminists.

But when you reach the point in the society where something like post-partum depression is going to be an affirmative defense to murder, where do we go next? Is alcoholism going to qualify as the insanity defense? Is -- how about gambling addiction? How about women with menstrual problems on the other side of life? What about if a 60-year-old does this to her children? Where does this go?

What we're really saying, let's be honest, Bob, about what this about. This is camel's nose under the tent for the liberals. People who say that Andrea Yates should not get the death penalty are really saying that there shouldn't be any death penalty at all.

CARLSON: Now Terry O'Neill, from the very beginning, feminist groups now specifically have been arguing a pretty consistent line which is, it's not really Andrea Yates' fault, offering up every sort of ludicrous excuse for why she would have killed five children.

I want to show you the fruits of those arguments that you and others have been making. This is CNN/"Time" poll. I think you'll find it interesting. It asks the question, who's responsible for these murders? Is Andrea Yates' husband responsible for her actions? 61 percent of those asked think her husband is responsible. Now since you're partly responsible for this attitude in America, I want to ask you, does this upset you as a feminist, the idea that Americans believe a husband is responsible for his wife's actions? She's a big girl. She's responsible, isn't she?

TERRY O'NEILL, VICE PRESIDENT, NOW: Yes, NOW has never said that Russell Yates was responsible for Andrea Yates' actions. What we have said is that her case has been mishandled from the beginning.

The right response to a woman who commits this kind of act and other women have committed it in the past, in the throws of a horrible disease called post-partum psychosis, very different from post partum depression. Women who have committed these horrible acts are deeply mentally ill. We have long opposed the death penalty at the National Organization for Women. We continue to oppose it. We absolutely say that it is wrong to try to impose the death penalty on a woman who was deeply mentally ill at the time that she committed the crime.

CARLSON: Wait a second. Now Terry...

O'NEILL: That is not the same thing as saying that she somehow didn't meet the extraordinarily narrow Texas definition of legal insanity.

CARLSON: But it is saying, you're blaming -- essentially blaming the disease, rather than the person. You said that what she had was a horrible disease. There's another horrible disease that was just brought up, alcoholism, which can, as you know, cause psychosis. It can cause hallucinations. And people do terrible things under the influence of this disease called alcoholism, including commit murder. Why is not that a defense? It strikes me as virtually the same thing.

O'NEILL: You know, one of the problems is we don't know enough about how to prevent and how to cure post-partum psychosis. What we know is that the psychosis happens to 1 woman in 1,000.

BURKMAN: So we have to make an excuse out of...

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: Let me tell you something.

BURKMAN: The American Psychological Association is going to find new diseases every year.

BECKEL: Excuse me. You two guys ought to go to school, which would be an unusual thing for conservatives to do. But you will find out that alcoholism has played a role in an insanity defense at least seven times in this country. Let me get back to this. This state of Texas, which has a judicial system, no justice system, but judicial system, now these prosecutors who put her on trial for capital murder went before that jury today and said, for all intents and purposes, let her off with life in prison.

That was as clear as any signal could have been given by prosecutors. Now if they think she shouldn't have been put to death, why in the world, given those yahoos saying it, I mean, you've got a yahoo, yahoo, to be the only person I know that thinks this woman should be put to death.

BURKMAN: Bob, I speak tonight as a philosopher. I can't explain...

BECKEL: A philosopher? You're a lawyer.

BURKMAN: ...why the Texas prosecutors did what they did. I don't think they did a good job. I will say this. I do not think insanity should ever be a defense to murder. There is never a time...

BECKEL: Why?

BURKMAN: I would support strongly an act of Congress that would eliminate the insanity defense, that would preempt state law, first time you've ever heard me want to preempt state law. I do not think insanity should be a defense.

Let me tell you what you should do with Andrea Yates. The problem with the death penalty in this country is the way we do it. It's painless. It's not visible. My friend Alan Dershowitz, with whom I've appeared on this program, has said that the death penalty -- it doesn't have the deterrent effect that he wants. And that's true. But you know why? Because people don't see it. Because it looks painless.

BECKEL: You know, first of all..

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: ...can I make one fast point?

CARLSON: Slow down, Jack.

BECKEL: The death penalty is obscene, disgraceful. In states where they don't have the death penalty, the murder rate went down the last three years.

BURKMAN: Bob, it proves nothing.

BECKEL: Oh, it doesn't?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: That's a sermon, not a point.

BECKEL: Wait, it's a point.

CARLSON: It's a sermon. It's an editorial. Let me slow down and ask a question.

Now Terry O'Neill, one of the things that bothers me, and I'm sure every American is the fact that NOW from the very beginning has focused on Andrea Yates. I want to play you a clip from Kaylynn Williford, who's the prosecutor here who I think puts in perspective and see if you agree with what she says. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAYLYNN WILLIFORD, PROSECUTOR: It's not just about Andrea Yates. It's about Noah, John, Paul, Luke and Mary. Children that I hope you will remember the rest of your life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: Now I just want to get a sense of the psychology here. Five small children are murdered, and your first instinct is to say, oh, their poor mother who murdered them?

O'NEILL: No, my first instinct when I heard about this case was to look for my daughter. To just want to make sure that my daughter was safe. Let me tell you that it is an absolutely shocking and horrible thing that happened to those five children, to their mother, and to their extended family, to their dad, to the grandmas, to the grandfathers, to their aunts and uncles and their neighbors who loved them.

What we're talking about is a disease that takes a woman, who was a devoted mother. She was deeply religious. She was home-schooling those kids.

BURKMAN: You're off the children already. You've got two seconds...

O'NEILL: I'm talking about her relationship with the kids.

(CROSSTALK)

BECKEL: I've got a bit -- this is not retribution toward you, Jack, although it might be warranted in certain cases, but we have to leave and go to another topic.

When we return, Tipper Gore is seriously considering running for the Senate. Tucker is currently in a state of shock, so bear with us for a few minutes. And we'll be back after we pick him up from the floor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: Now I'm going to be her most enthusiastic supporter because I think she'd be terrific. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKEL: With friends like Hillary Clinton endorsing her potential candidacy for the seat of retiring Senator Fred Thompson, Tipper Gore is giving every consideration she's seriously looking at the Tennessee race. She canceled a West Coast trip to her children, while prominent Democrats across the state urged her to run.

Will Tipper Gore follow Hillary Clinton and perhaps Liddy Dole and join the exclusive Senate club of wives of former presidential candidates who found a political life despite or because of their husband's political demise.

Our guests, Republican strategist Scott Reed and former Gore campaign spokesman Doug Hattaway. Tucker, no mistakes, your question.

CARLSON: Thank you, Bob. Doug Hattaway, thanks for joining us.

DOUG HATTAWAY, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Sure.

CARLSON: Now my fear, I'll be candid with you. And I'm sure your fear is that this is not a joke, because Tipper Gore, perfectly pleasant woman. Sort of amusing in an eccentric way. Good photographer. Apparently, she plays the drums. But let's be honest, what is she best known for?

Let me answer that question, if I may. This is what she's best known for. Right here. There it is. He's stalking his prey. He's got her. He grabs her. That's it right there. That's right. The kiss. Being mauled on stage in Los Angeles and full convention center of embarrased fans.

HATTAWAY: Tipper Gore is known for being a great campaigner, a very smart, warm personable woman. She's been out there working on issues like mental health, family issues, homelessness. I think she would be a great candidate.

CARLSON: But what you're saying, basically, and I hope you'll admit it, is that she's qualified to run for the United States Senate because she's famous. But let's be honest here. This is a state that her husband, despite a lot of money, despite talented guys like you got creamed in. It's his home state, but he lost Tennessee. So she, who's only qualification again is being well known, is going to win?

HATTAWAY: Right, it's not her only qualification.

CARLSON: Totally not true.

HATTAWAY: Name ID gets you to the door. The candidate has to make the sale. I think she is perfectly capable of that, having seen her campaign across the country. She went through a grueling presidential campaign, did great out there, did great talking about the issues. I think one of the problems we had in Tennessee was the NRA demagogue, the gun issue so bad, lying to people, telling them...

CARLSON: The NRA did it, yeah. HATTAWAY: It was the NRA. And this is a different campaign. I think she'd be great.

BECKEL: It's been 20 years since Tucker got kissed like that. Let me go right over here to my friend on the Republican right. You know, what Doug said, I think is important. This woman has had a history of dealing with a number of policy issues. Children's health, she's an author. She brought depression to the forefront, something that affects millions and millions of people and quite courageously by bring her own depression forward.

Now it seems to me that that, in and of itself, qualifies you from a policy standpoint, as opposed to a hack standpoint, to run for the United States Senate.

SCOTT REED, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I think you're right. She's a fine lady. She'd make a fine candidate. She would cause a little problem in the Democratic party right now because just yesterday, the congressmen got together and cleared the field for Congressman Clement to make the race.

But look, this is a real risk for Al Gore. If she runs and loses Tennessee, there he goes again. He's lost Tennessee. It would be impossible for him to go forward and try to run for the nomination. If he can't win, if his wife can't win Tennessee, he can't win anywhere. And that's the problem they're going to talk about around the dinner table this weekend.

BECKEL: Yeah, you seem a little too encouraging about this. But let's look at these giants and the Tennessee Republican party. I don't think he's alone, this congressman, whoever he is. I never hard heard of the guy. But that's all right. You know, you don't usually hear about people that don't do much.

But the point is this. I have heard that Lamar Alexander may run again. Now here's a Phi Beta Kappa for you. Here's a guy that was Secretary of Education, talked about Education, and then campaigned on doing away with the Department of Education. Now with all due respect, Lamar, this guy's been down the road. He's been red hard, laid up wet. And he ought to stay laid up wet. I think Tipper Gore would beat him in a walk.

REED: Oh, what?

BECKEL: Oh, what? Is that some new kind of expression? Ohwa!

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: That's so dumb, I can't think of the words.

REED: One of the issues Fred Thompson thought about when he was retiring was are they going to hold on to the seat? All senators think about when they're going step aside? Lamar's a very strong candidate, twice elected governor, been the president of U.T., been a successful businessman.

HATTAWAY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

REED: Yeah, he's done some goofy things. But look, he's going to put this together. You're going to see him on television the next week. He's going to vacuum up a lot of money around the state and very quickly, he will become the frontrunner for this race.

BECKEL: I tell you, he's the gift that keeps on giving for us. I tell you that. Let them keep coming.

CARLSON: And I hope that we get the gift of Tipper Gore. I'd like to cover that race. I think, as I said, it would be wildly amusing, but it would also be sad because it would be another example of a Democratic candidate coming in and big footing a real politician.

Poor Anita Lowe was going to run for Senate. Hillary Clinton, mid-life crisis, decides she bumps her out of the way. And in this case, what you could have is Tipper Gore coming in and bumping out probably the most promising black politician in the Democratic party, Harold Ford, who's a wonderful guy and could probably win. Tipper Gore, who has never held office, comes in and just destroys his dreams.

HATTAWAY: Yeah, I don't think Tipper Gore has anything to do with Harold Ford's decision in this. I think we'd have -- our primary in the Democratic side, if that should happen, would blow away the Republicans. You'd see these guys running to the extreme right and then having to claw their way back to the middle in the general, which is not going to happen. I think Lamar Alexander would be a great candidate to run against. It was Jay Leno who called him Al Gore without the charisma.

BECKEL: You know, to listen to Tucker Carlson, feel badly so about it. A liberal Democratic woman and a black man from Tennessee, I'm just crying. Here's a crying towel, Tucker.

CARLSON: I like Harold Ford. I think he's a good guy and he's earned that seat and...

BECKEL: No, really, just don't cry over it. It's fine. Let me ask a serious question here for a moment while Tucker's crying about blacks and liberals.

CARLSON: It's true.

BECKEL: Oh, I know.

CARLSON: He deserves -- what has Tipper Gore ever done? This guy has been in Congress for a long time.

BECKEL: Let me try that out for you because...

CARLSON: Will you please answer the question?

BECKEL: I tried say that about children's health and other things, that things that you don't necessarily relate to.

CARLSON: She hasn't had a job in 25 years, Bob. Come on.

BECKEL: Except for the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you might relate to. Listen, there's another wife of a former senator running named Liddy Dole. Now Liddy Dole is a qualified woman. You know, she's held positions in the cabinet. But she's never been elected to anything.

But more importantly, you talk about interloper. Tipper Gore has been registered to vote in Tennessee for several decades now. Liddy Dole was registered to vote, I think, at the Watergate Hotel, where she's been living for the last -- probably 30 years. And now well down in North Carolina and registered, got a driver's license about a month and a half ago.

Now what qualifies Liddy Dole, which I know you're going to have to defend Liddy Dole and doesn't qualify my dear friend Tipper Gore?

REED: First of all, Elizabeth Dole was registered to vote in Rustle, Kansas, where her husband was from.

BECKEL: Oh, OK, Sorry. It was a little farther away from North Carolina. OK, sorry.

REED: Look, she -- Elizabeth Dole is a historic figure. She went to Duke University.

BECKEL: I'm sorry.

REED: She's run two cabinet secretaries for Republican presidents. She's ran the American Red Cross, a $2 billion business, worldwide industry. And she's gone back down there. And she's working for it. She's not riding on all these polls that show her with 30, 40, 50-point lead.

By the way, Democrats have a very divisive primary. It's a late primary. They're going to have a very difficult time getting reorganized in September. And I think you're going to see Elizabeth get elected.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Because I have a question for Doug Hattaway. And I like this idea of running only celebrities. This is clearly the new Democratic party. And my question, very quickly to you is, what other unaccomplished celebrities who don't really have jobs do you think you'll put up? Will Barbara Streisand ever be a candidate?

HATTAWAY: You're barking up the wrong tree, Tucker.

CARLSON: It's a true tree.

HATTAWAY: Tipper Gore would make these Republican candidates look really pale in this state. And I think she's going to have a great shot. Again, we don't know who the Democratic nominee's going to be, if there's going to be a primary. I think our candidates blow either of yours away.

BECKEL: Abraham Lincoln was a great person. And Tucker knew Abraham Lincoln. And Liddy Dole ain't no Abraham Lincoln.

CARLSON: Very good, OK. Well, Doug Hattaway, Scott Reed, thank you both very much. Sort of sad.

Next, beware, gun control advocates because when we come back, it's time to fire back, the moment each week when we read your hostile e-mail and respond accordingly. Look out Michael Sanders, commonsense is coming your way.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON: Welcome back. It's Friday. So it's time to fire back, the segment when we read your e-mails in response to segments we've done earlier in the week.

First up, Michael Sanders responding to a segment we did on George W. Bush's court appointments. He writes, "The Republican Supreme court judges put Bush in the White House. Because of this, there is every reason to question the nomination of any judge that George Bush wants. He does not rule this country."

A conspiracy theory. Looks like Oliver Stone is going under an assumed name. Very silly. Keep in mind, Mr. Sanders, that George W. Bush got a higher percentage of the popular vote than Bill Clinton did or perhaps don't keep it in mind. Keep fighting the last war. It will ensure that you lose the next one.

BECKEL: Poetic. This next one's from...

CARLSON: It's true.

BECKEL: Well, of course, anything from your mouth is true, Tucker.

CARLSON: That's the spirit, Bob.

BECKEL: Ora from New Jersey writes, "I think that George W. Bush fit right in there singing itsy bitsy spider with those kids. His brain is probably the size of an itsy bitsy spider. I can't wait till the rain comes down and washes that spider out of office."

All right. Now we've got just a little piece. Let's hear it. All right. Now, wasn't that scintillating, Tucker, to listen to that? Now let me just say...

CARLSON: Bob, you can see why that person did not sign her last name. Because that's a...

BECKEL: Now, Tucker, please, I didn't step on your deal here. The fact is Ora, that spiders have had an amazing ability to withstand rain. And yet in the end, they're still spiders. And you can spin the web all you want, Mr. President. And you're going to catch a lot of people most of the time. But not all of the people all of the time.

CARLSON: OK, I thought you were going to stop this metaphor right here. BECKEL: And I think -- excuse me, and I want to sound -- want to stand up for you, Mr. President. I think your brain is bigger than a spider.

CARLSON: OK. Now, another letter from a grouchy vegetarian in response to a show we did earlier this week on McDonald's. This comes from Mira Goshal. She writes, "The fact that you ate french fries on the air was very insulting to those of us who feel cheated by yet another corporation, this time not Enron."

That corporation, of course, is McDonald's. There's something about a meat-free diet that makes people a little grumpy. But I guess I would point out that the difference between Enron and McDonald's, the only thing shredded at Mcdonald's is the hashed browns. And it's a very, very unfair comparison.

BECKEL: All I want to say -- I'm missing my last e-mail. It talked about fighting whites. And I can say that you guys are fighting right wingers. And that's really good.

CARLSON: Thank you, Bob.

BECKEL: From the left, I'm Bob Beckel, proud to be a liberal. Good-night from CROSSFIRE.

CARLSON: And I'm Tucker Carlson, not embarrassed to sit next to Bob. Join us again next week on Monday for another full week of CROSSFIRE. See you then.

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