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CNN Crossfire
Should Colin Powell Go to Middle East?; Should Yasser Arafat Go Away?
Aired April 02, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE: On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE tonight: The Middle East mess. Is it time for Colin Powell to go to the Middle East? And is it time for Yasser Arafat to go away?
Some say they got George W. Bush elected. Now, what does Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan think of the way the president is running the country? As "Longhorn Lefty" and the "Bow Tie Brawler" prepare to face off, who will prevail?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: On the left.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: I'm on the right. And they're wrong, wrong, wrong.
ANNOUNCER: All tonight on CROSSFIRE.
From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
BEGALA: Welcome to the all new CROSSFIRE, our second night from our new location right here at the George Washington University in Washington, D.C. This is one of those nights you're going to be glad you paid your cable bill because watching Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan on the stage in front of this live audience ought to be on pay per view.
But first, a more serious topic, deadly serious, fighting between the Israelis and Palestinians shows absolutely no sign of ending soon. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon suggests it's time for Yasser Arafat to go into exile. The State Department gives the families of American government employees the green light to leave Jerusalem. President Bush continues to be accused of not doing enough to end the fighting and calls grow louder for Mr. Bush to send Secretary of State Colin Powell to the region.
And late today, Palestinian fighters forced their way into a place that, to Christians all around the world, symbolizes peace. Tonight, there's no peace there.
Let's go live to CNN's Chief International Correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, in Jerusalem. Christiane, what is the latest from Bethlehem?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN NEWS: Well, Paul, the situation in the Church of the Nativity, the birthplace of Jesus Christ, we're being told by Palestinians inside that what happened was many Palestinians, men and others, including families, apparently, went in there to seek sanctuary. Some of those are armed. We're told that most of those with arms are part of the security services, the Palestinian security services.
We can't get a good idea of exactly what's going on militarily from the Israelis because they won't comment as military operations are underway. And they say that that operation there is underway. We're told there is no actual fighting at the moment around that church or that - but there has been early this evening and it is still surrounded by tanks.
Earlier this evening, also, Palestinians telling us that four Palestinian men were shot by the Israeli forces today, apparently, these men belonging to the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, that militant organization alive with Yasser Arafat's Fatah organization. So that's what's going on there at this moment.
Paul?
CARSON: Christiane, this is Tucker Carlson. Is there any sense that Yasser Arafat would ever take Ariel Sharon up on his offer of a one-way ticket out of Ramallah?
AMANPOUR: No. And obviously, quite the opposite. He's made it quite clear in some of those mobile phone and other broadcasts that have come out of that compound over the last five days that he's not going anywhere and certainly not going anywhere voluntarily.
And in addition from the Israelis, essentially what Ariel Sharon said today was quite evidently his heartfelt view and his heartfelt desire. But he's always floated that view in a cabinet session, the emergency session on Friday before the military invasion. And most of the cabinet decided against exile and for isolation. And that appears to be the strategy that is still underway at the moment. And there is little inclination by most of the Israelis, we're told here, that Arafat should, in fact, be exiled.
CARLSON: OK. Thanks, Christiane. Christiane Amanpour will be back at the top of the hour for LIVE FROM JERUSALEM.
And now, to our CROSSFIRE, our guest tonight, joining us from the left, Robert Wexler of Florida, a Democrat. He's a member of the House International Relations Committee and Hassan Abdel Rahman, the chief PLO representative of the United Nations.
BEGALA: Welcome to the new CROSSFIRE. Mr. Rahman, if I may start with you. We heard this report from Christiane Amanpour a few hours ago. The Palestinians forced their way into what to Christians is one of the most sacred sites on earth, the Church of the Nativity. Is this a valid military strategy, to invade a church? HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, CHIEF PLO REPRESENTATIVE TO THE UNITED STATES: First of all, the Palestinians are also Christians, as you may know. And the inhabitants of Bethlehem are mostly Christians, 90 percent of them. In the face of an Israeli invasion of their city, they look for sanctuaries to hide. And they are hiding in a church, hoping that they will be protected because the experience of the Palestinians so far in other cities like in Ramallah and Jenin and Qalqilia, they were massacred in mass by the Israelis. Today, before I left my office, I witnessed the burial of 29 people in the yard of the hospital of Ramallah.
BEGALA: Let me bring you back to Bethlehem, though, for a minute. I want to make sure I'm clear about this. You endorse the use of force to take over the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, which is what apparently has happened, the Associated Press and CNN reports.
RAHMAN: I have had a conversation with Michele Sabat this morning, who is the representative of the Pope. He invited Palestinians to come and hide because the Israelis kill indiscriminately in Bethlehem...
BEGALA: So you're saying that the Pope has invited the Palestinians into the Church of the Nativity?
RAHMAN: Not the Pope. I said the priests invited the people to come and hide. And there are very, very few armed people. The rest are civilians, Christians who are seeking sanctuary in the church.
CARLSON: Now, Congressman Wexler, Prime Minister Sharon, many people in Israel, many supporters of Israel here in the United States make the same point. They say Yasser Arafat is essentially a criminal. He's not a legitimate national leader. I'll buy that. Then why not just seize him and put him on trial?
ROBERT WEXLER (D-FL), MEMBER, HOUSE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, it's bigger than that, Tucker. A nation which Sharon is elected to represent has to defend itself. And in order to defend himself, in order to defend his people, he's got to go in and ferret out the roots of terrorism. That's what Yasser Arafat was supposed to do under the peace process but has failed, unfortunately, to do. So Prime Minister Sharon, in order to protect himself and his people, has got to root out the sources of terrorism. Putting Yasser Arafat on trial is not going to stop suicide bombings.
CARLSON: Sharon has made the point again and again and many supporters of Israel here again in the United States, make the same point, that at the root of terrorism in the region is Yasser Arafat. Sharon says that all the time. Now, if that's true and I assume you believe it is true, then why play these silly games and surround his office and keep him in Ramallah? Why not just take him and remove him from the scene if he's the root of it?
WEXLER: I'm not going to defend Yasser Arafat in any way. But the Prime Minister of Israel has decided that the best course of action is to isolate him. The European community, the international community, if he were to go further, would go even more wild than they already are.
So I think what Sharon is doing is similar to what he did in his first several months of office. He's trying to show some degree of restraint under an unbelievable situation where his people are getting blown to shreds every day. And they've tried day in and day out with General Zinni most recently, to get the Palestinian Authority to move against terrorism but they didn't. So now, Sharon's response is OK, if you don't do it, Arafat, I'll do it. And this is what we're seeing.
BEGALA: Mr. Rahman, about those people who have been blown to bits. I want to know point blank, does the Palestinian Authority support, condone or finance suicide bombings?
RAHMAN: No, no, no.
BEGALA: I'd like you then to take a look at a story that's running today on "Ha'aretz Daily", a Web site which purports...
RAHMAN: Let me - let me - let me finish.
BEGALA: ... to show, sir, a receipt for reimbursement for equipment for suicide bombs.
RAHMAN: This is - this is a fraud by the Israeli intelligence, sir. The Israelis have a department that specializes in putting out lies.
BEGALA: Let me - let me show you what this is. Before you - before you dispute it, let me first show our audience so they know what we're talking about. It was from today's "Ha'aretz," which is a respected paper in the Middle East. This is what - this is what the purported receipt said. It was presented to the Palestinian Authorities in faith. "The cost of supplying electronic and chemical components for explosive devices and bombs, this was our largest expense. The cost of preparing a bomb is at least shekels - 700 shekels. We need to equip five to nine bombs each week for ourselves in various locations, 5,000 shekels times four weeks equals 20,000 shekels." That sounds to me, sir,...
RAHMAN: That is nonsense.
BEGALA: ... like a request for reimbursement for bombs.
RAHMAN: That is nonsense. And I must tell you that this is a lie by the Israeli Intelligence with the hope to tarnish the image of the PLO. But let me tell you who are the terrorists. Mr. Sharon, Mr. Wexler, has made a career of being a terrorist. His whole life is a terrorist. Mr. Sharon has on his hands the blood of tens of thousands of...
BEGALA: Mr. Sharon is not financing suicide bombers.
RAHMAN: Let me finish what I am saying. Don't interrupt me, please. What I'm trying to say...
BEGALA: I can answer what I'm asking...
RAHMAN: Well, I - you asked me and I answer. I am answering you about what Mr. Sharon is committing against the Palestinian people. Mr. Sharon today is having 3.5 million Palestinian under siege, men, women, children are under a state of siege. Therefore, and we - he has - the city of Ramallah has 25,000 people. He has 40,000 Israeli soldiers, one soldier and half for every citizen. And he has 400 tents. Is the West Bank a runaway province of Israel?
WEXLER: Mr. Begala asks - Mr. Begala asks whether or not your...
RAHMAN: Mr. Sharon is leading a terrorist government. Yes, there are Palestinians who commit act of violence. But when it becomes the policy of the state of Israel, the state of Israel's policy...
WEXLER: This isn't a matter - this isn't a matter of Israeli Intelligence.
RAHMAN: Of course.
WEXLER: The United States State Department has determined that divisions of Fatah, Yasser Arafat's administration, is deserving to be on the terrorist list. Why? Because there used to be a time - let me finish...
RAHMAN: You know why? Because (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people like you in Congress...
WEXLER: Oh, yes.
RAHMAN: ... who serve Israeli interests and not American interests.
WEXLER: Thank you very much, Mr. Rahman.
RAHMAN: You present more Israel than American, Mr. Wexler.
WEXLER: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Rahman, is that there used to be a time when Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the like could be distinguished from Fatah. When Fatah negotiated, Hamas blew things up. But today, that's no longer the case. Yasser Arafat's Fatah division is blowing up people.
RAHMAN: That's is nonsense. That is nonsense.
WEXLER: Unfortunately, Mr. Rahman,...
RAHMAN: You know what somebody told me? You know what somebody told me today? He said give me an F-16 airplane. Give me a tank. Give me a Apache helicopter and I would not use bombs against Israel.
WEXLER: So it'd just be more effective killing.
RAHMAN: Because the Israeli are using those weapons...
WEXLER: That does not calm my heart as an American to know that what you want is...
CARLSON: The Palestinian suicide bombings against Israel are the fault of the United States, that the U.S. has driven Palestinians to this?
RAHMAN: No, I am not saying that. I am saying that there are fair Palestinian people who for the last 36 years, living in a constant state of terror by Israel under an illegal foreign military occupation. If your country is occupied by a foreign army, what would you do? If your country is invaded by Jewish settlers from New York and from Moscow, coming to build exclusive Jewish settlements in your country, what would you do?
CARLSON: Mr. Wexler, answer that. I mean, are the settlers exacerbating the tension there? They are, aren't they?
WEXLER: From 1948 to - oh, I'll answer it. From 1948 to...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Hold it. Who's paying (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
RAHMAN: The extremist Jews in this country and he's paid by most of them.
WEXLER: OK. Thank you, Mr. Rahman.
CARLSON: He's talking about the taxpayers (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WEXLER: Yes. From 1948 to 1967, Israel occupied not a single inch of Arab land. Yet, there was terrorism in Israel, unfortunately, a great deal of it. When Yitzhak Rabin was the Prime Minister of Israel and he was negotiating, when Prime Minister Barak was the Prime Minister of Israel and all but gave Yasser Arafat 90-plus percent of the West Bank and half of Jerusalem, there was still terrorism.
The fact of the matter is and all Americans need to understand this that is Israel and what the Palestinians are doing with respect to suicide bombs is a test. It's test one. And it's within this ring of terrorism that we know.
CARLSON: I don't think you all have convinced each other yet.
RAHMAN: You know what...
CARLSON: But there's still time. Mr. Rahman, I'm afraid I'm going to have to - we're going to...
RAHMAN: The desperation that the Israelis ...
CARLSON: I beg your pardon. We're going to have to take a break right here. And we'll continue when CROSSFIRE continues. We'll continue to speak with our guests and we'll let our audience have a crack at them, as well.
And later, in what two sports are the experts usually wrong? You'll find the answer in our quote of the day. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Our guests, surprisingly, are still with us. With us tonight to debate the continuing crisis in the Middle East, Democratic Congressman, Robert Wexler of Florida and Hassan Abdel Rahman, the Chief PLO Representative to the Unites States.
Now, Congressman Wexler, I'm a supporter of Israel. But I don't take exception to almost everything you said, as much as I hate to admit that. But one thing I have to say. It's very striking. Whenever you hear an Israeli spokesman talk about the attacks on Israeli citizens, you always see a comparison to September 11th. And I'm wondering if you find that insulting because, in fact, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians have been going on for 50 years. It's essentially a war. And it's really not at all analogous to what happened in the surprise attack in the U.S. on September 11th.
WEXLER: I think the best way to present it is really the way that President Bush presented it. And that is that essentially, the United States, in order to defeat international terrorism, has to have a zero tolerance policy for terrorism, whether that terrorism emanates from Afghanistan, whether the terrorism emanates from the West Bank or from Iran, Iraq and Syria. And I think that's the best way in which America can deal with this problem to protect our own citizens. And...
CARLSON: Wait, wait, wait. You say that and yet, moments ago, you said you approved of the current situation where Yasser Arafat, who you're implying is a terrorist, is allowed to just sit and hang out in Ramallah. It strikes me as an inconsistent point of view.
WEXLER: I don't - I don't approve of anything that Yasser Arafat is doing. But what I do appreciate is the nuances that are involved in the Middle East peace process. Just like the president said, the United States has a variety of interests. And we have to be careful when we move. And when we move, things tend to be exaggerated.
And if we're going to bring Israelis and Palestinians to a negotiation table, which is what should be our goal, we have to be very careful to be coherent and consistent. And I would argue that consistency means they can certainly have no tolerance for terrorism. Call it like it is. And we need to call Yasser Arafat for what he's been doing. And that is harboring and inciting terrorism. And that, unfortunately, is a change from the way he was behaving when he was negotiating. And that's the great tragedy.
BEGALA: Let me ask Mr. Rahman about something that Mr. Arafat said. In our first segment, you stunned me and maybe our audience by, sort of, without any evidence, claiming that a perfectly credible report proving Palestinian support for the suicide bombings and financing was somehow made up by Israeli Intelligence. Let me read you a quote from Yasser Arafat to "Al-Jazeera," speaking to his folks in his language from the "Washington Post." Let me read it to you.
"We have chosen a path. We will either be a martyr for our sons and daughters" - it's up here on the screen - "and will raise the flag of Palestine over the churches and mosques of Jerusalem. We are all potential martyrs, the whole Palestinian people."
Now, those are Yasser Arafat's words,...
RAHMAN: Yes.
BEGALA: ... not - so your goal is not, in fact, to peacefully coexist with two states, one Palestinian and one Israeli, but instead, have the flag over every church, every mosque in the Holy Land.
RAHMAN: Well, those churches and those mosques in Jerusalem are Palestinian churches and Palestinian mosques. They're not Israeli mosques. Israelis do not have mosques. Israelis have synagogues. So Yasser Arafat is talking about his own occupied mosques and churches in Jerusalem.
BEGALA: No. He's simply saying...
RAHMAN: Absolutely. And those are under Israeli occupation. No one in the world accepted Israel's annexation of Jerusalem.
BEGALA: OK...
RAHMAN: Even in the United States, the closest allies of the United States, of Israel, considers Israeli action in Jerusalem as illegal.
BEGALA: So you want me to believe that your goal really is just peaceful coexistence with Israel?
RAHMAN: Well, I'm...
BEGALA: Well, what about what Arafat said, our goal is from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River, a state?
RAHMAN: I will answer. Yasser Arafat never said that. Let me tell you what. Yasser Arafat...
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That's a good point.
RAHMAN: Yasser - not even Faisal Hussein (ph).
BEGALA: Certainly.
RAHMAN: Yasser Arafat signed an agreement with Israel for a peace between two states, the Palestinian state and the Israeli state. What happened during seven years of negotiations, Mr. Barak and Mr. Netanyahu moved 100,000 Jewish settlers into the territories that was supposed to be a Palestinian state. Is that good will?
WEXLER: You play the victim card very well.
RAHMAN: It is not a victim.
WEXLER: But you cannot - you cannot deny history. RAHMAN: I don't want to be a victim. I don't think Jordan is a victim.
WEXLER: History is obvious. Mr. Rahman...
RAHMAN: I want to be a free man in my own country.
WEXLER: Yes, sir. And you deserve to be a free man, Mr. Rahman. And the President of the United States, Bill Clinton, gave you your opportunities and Yasser Arafat walked away and your people went to a suicide bombing strategy.
RAHMAN: I was there. You were not there in Camp David. I was there in Camp David. You were not there.
WEXLER: Mr. Rahman, you should be a free man.
RAHMAN: And I was - and I was...
WEXLER: But your leader doesn't take you to the promised land. He'd rather be a suicide bomber.
RAHMAN: But, you know, I was born - I was born as a free man. And I have the right to be a free man. And these - I cannot be a free man if the Israeli army sends 1,000 tanks. You, as a Jew, should be outraged...
WEXLER: Yes. Mr. Rahman,...
RAHMAN: ... by the invasion of the West Bank by the Israeli army. It is reminiscent of the invasion of Czechoslovakia, Mr. Wexler...
CARLSON: Mr. Rahman, that is going to have to be...
RAHMAN: To have - to have massive graves...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I am very grateful to...
CARLSON: On that low note...
BEGALA: ... both of you - to both of you for showing up. But Congressman Wexler, thank you. Mr. Rahman, thank you very much for a very enlightening and hot debate, hopefully (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Coming up, in the CROSSFIRE "News Alert", what "Playgirl" is trying to do to end the cover-up at Enron? And this, two underdogs and two very improbable victories. It's our quote of the day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: And now, those stories you won't find anywhere else, the CROSSFIRE "News Alert." First up, it's been unfashionable since the end of the Taft administration. And again, it's been unfashionable since the end of the Taft administration. Now, being fat is officially classified as a disease. That, according to experts at the Internal Revenue Service, who today, ruled that weight loss programs, when ordered by a physician, can be tax deductible.
Quote, "Obesity is medically accepted to be a disease in its own right," the IRS declared. The announcement set off frantic lobbying campaigns by the flat chested, the weak chin and those with bad hair, who will now seek their own appearance-related deductions. We'll keep you posted.
BEGALA: You think I should go in for a little cosmetic surgery? It's popular at Fox, I understand.
"Playgirl" magazine has announced that it will feature the men of Enron, au naturale. I wonder if they are going to feature any of George W. Bush's men of Enron, like Army Secretary Thomas White, a former top Enron executive, National Economic Council Chairman Larry Lindsey, a former Enron consultant, Chief Bush political Carl Rove, a major Enron stockholder even while he was working in the White House or U.S. Trade Representative, Robert Zelick (ph), another veteran of the Enron gravy train. Come on, guys. It's time to go for the full Monty.
And in medical news, Paul Begala has been ordered to take a deep breath. Just kidding. How would you feel if Osama bin Laden called your cell phone? It could happen. The "New York Post" says a Washington state man, identified only as Bob from Spokane, has registered his ID in the name of the fugitive Saudi terrorist. When Bob from Spokane calls, Osama from Kandahar appears on the screen. Funny? The FBI didn't think so. There's nothing illegal about it. But an agent contacted Bob the other day to notify him that the practice is, quote, "in poor taste."
Well, I feel better that the FBI is policing good taste. And by the way, that was not Bob Novak by any chance, was it?
And now, our momentous event, the quote of the day is from none other than the President of the United States. In a meeting today with the Super Bowl champion, New England Patriots.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE United States: I remember watching all the experts talk about the Super Bowl. No one thought they'd win. They learned what I learned, that in politics and sports, the experts are often wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: The experts can actually count, though, Mr. President. The Patriots scored more points. They won. You got fewer votes and you got in because of a rigged deal from the Supreme Court. CARLSON: That is, I'd have to say, the cheapest applause line I've ever seen. But, you know, I hope he keeps saying that, spitting (ph) this ludicrous theory. You and your pals from the Flat Earth Society can keep talking about who you (ph) really won the election of 2002 all the way through the election of 2004 when you get crushed like insects yet again. That is not a line that will get you anywhere (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: Do you know what? In New England...
CARLSON: That's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) false.
BEGALA: New England would have lost the Super Bowl if Chief Justice Rink (ph) was a referee.
But, on that - on that wonderful line, chief justice is watching, thank you, sir. And there are no cases of mine pending before you.
When we come back, a CNN "News Alert," including would you vote for candidates favoring a tax cut or a balanced budget? We've got some results of the new poll. And the Middle East mess and soaring gas prices. We'll tackle that hot issue with our guests, Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BEGALA: And unless you've been hiding in a cave or you don't drive a car, you probably noticed that you've been slammed by high gas prices lately. And they're still soaring. Nationwide, gas prices are up 23 cents a gallon just over the last four weeks. The average for regular gasoline now is a stunning $1.37 a gallon.
Well, what's to blame? The Middle East conflict? Driving more since September 11? Our constant dependence on foreign oil? Those are just some of the reasons. Well, we'll have a few more to talk about on the energy, the Mideast and politics and try to get to the bottom of the current spike in energy prices.
Please give a hearty welcome to our guests, in the crossfire, Ralph Nader, former green party presidential candidate and on the right, Pat J. Buchanan, former Reform Party candidate and a co-host of this broadcast, ladies and gentlemen. Nader and Buchanan.
CARLSON: Ralph Nader, thanks for joining us. We're at a college, so you have fans. You know, when you look at the situation in the Middle East, apart from the obvious sadness one feels at seeing all the deaths that are taking place, it makes you owner, can the United States afford to be dependent on foreign oil to the extent it is? And isn't this an obvious and compelling argument for drilling in Anwar?
RALPH NADER, FMR. GREEN PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, it's an obvious and compelling argument for more fuel efficiency for cars, heating systems, lighting systems. All the things the Department of Transportation, National Academy of Science, experts at the California Energy Commission have pointed out for years.
In fact, the most safest car and the most fuel efficient car was produced under contract by the Department of Transportation 25 years ago with Chrysler and Cornell Aero lab. It came in at 2600 pounds to 3100 pounds. That's small. And it was the safest car ever built. It had 31 miles per gallon.
CARLSON: I'd rather drive a Suburban for safety. But look, I mean...
NADER: But the Honda Civic is safer than the GM Suburban.
CARLSON: I don't believe that for a second.
NADER: Yes, it is.
CARLSON: Despite our phony studies. But look...
NADER: Tucker, just check out autosafety.org. You'll get all the data on...
CARLSON: You know I've bookmarked it on my computer. Funny you said that. You know, look, I have no doubt that wind power will some day solve all our problems. But until it does, and it's a long way off, cafe standards are not going to be manageable, as you know.
We need oil now. And there's a lot of it in Alaska. It would have virtually no effect on the environment. What really is the rationale for not drilling there?
NADER: First of all, Clinton opened up large areas of northern Alaska for the companies. They haven't gone into those yet. They're just focusing on the refuge because it happens to be a big in the oil circles. It's like an imaginable line between if you're for them or against them.
Do you know that the earliest -- if they find adequate oil in the refuge, they won't drill a barrel for seven years to begin with? There's no guarantee it won't be sold to Japan, because the oil companies don't want to be restricted to the U.S. They want it to be sold for the highest prices abroad.
But the key is, energy efficiency, renewable energy. This has been documented -- what do you have against it?
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: Before I give you the drilling on drilling, I want to -- have one quick question about the Middle East.
NADER: Sure.
BEGALA: We both of you have actually have been rather outspoken. I want to read you a quotation, ask you if agree with it. I want to put it up on the screen right here. It's from October of the year 2000. This is a quote. Mr. Nader, if you could take a look. "Who are the forces that are producing most of the violence? The overwhelming excessive use of forces is by the Israeli military." Now that was in October of 2000. Do you agree with that statement?
PAT BUCHANAN, FMR. REFORM PARTY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Yes, today it certainly is by the Israeli military. There's no doubt about it. The point is...
BEGALA: That statement, by the way, was from Ralph Nader. Would he have been the Secretary of State in the Buchanan cabinet?
BUCHANAN: Well, the point is your guy got beat. And Ralph and I helped beat him. OK?
BEGALA: My guy got more votes than your guy. So...
BUCHANAN: He didn't do as well as he should have done in Palm Beach County, but let's talk about this -- let's talk about just what you said. Look...
BEGALA: Israel is to blame for violence is your solution.
BUCHANAN: Terrorism is evil. The United States stands beside the Israelis in their war against terror, but we should not stand with the Israelis in their war on Palestine and the Palestinian people, who have the same God-given right to a homeland, a state, and a nation, as do the Israelis.
BEGALA: What if that terrorism is committed by Palestinians? What the heck is going on? It's very nice to draw a distinction, say we won't declare war on terrorism, but not on Palestinians. These suicide bombers are, in fact, Palestinians coming into Israel and blowing themselves up at pizzerias and killing children. That's not something they have a legitimate right to stop?
BUCHANAN: Two of the Israeli prime minister, Menachim Begin, blew up the King David Hotel. He perpetrated the massacre at the Yir Yassin (ph). 200 Palestinian men, women, children killed.
BEGALA: So eye for an eye?
BUCHANAN: No. What it is is good causes sometimes use evil means. We condemn the evil means, but the cause of Palestinian independence in a homeland is one the Americans ought to support as we condemn terrorism.
BEGALA: So should Martin Luther King have used terrorism?
BUCHANAN: He didn't use terrorism.
BEGALA: What? Yes, he did. And Arafat will fail, because he did.
BUCHANAN: He succeeded because he was up against a country in which you can use civil disobedience. If Gandhi had laid down in front of the trains in Nazi Germany, there might not have been... BEGALA: But we're talking about Israeli here, a free democratic society, not Nazi Germany.
BUCHANAN: All right, look, I agree with the Palestinian...
BEGALA: There's a big difference between Israel and Nazi Germany.
BUCHANAN: But look, do you believe, I mean Mr. Rahman asked you this, do you believe the Palestinian people have the same right to use force to create a homeland and nation of their own, that we used against the British to throw them out of our country?
BEGALA: We did not blow up restaurants, children, pizza places, the way that the Palestinians...
BUCHANAN: Do you want to answer the question or talk about -- look, I condemn terror. Do they have the same right to use force to drive people out of their homeland and to create their own nation as the Americans did?
CARLSON: Oh, that is an outrageous...
BEGALA: It's a complete...
CARLSON: Wait. Ralph Nader, you want to be president. And by the way, congratulations for electing a marvelous president. But if you were president, I mean, do you agree with Pat Buchanan? I mean, what would you do differently than this president's doing now?
NADER: Paul is the not interested in the settlement. He's interested in scoring points. If you want a peaceful settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, you preserve Israeli security and Palestinian justice. And you support the peace forces in Israel. They are very strong. They are very articulate. And at times they've put in...
CARLSON: These forces in Israel are very strong right now?
NADER: Very, very, very strong.
CARLSON: I mean, I don't know what country you're talking about. I mean, they just selected Sharon. I mean...
NADER: No, they're very strong in terms of their ability to raise the conscience of the country and to put 100,000 people in demonstrations in Tel Aviv, before all this latest trouble started. The reservists that are refusing to serve in the West Bank, Beth Salaam (ph), the magnificent civil liberties group in Israel, why aren't we supporting...
CARLSON: So demonstrations, that's your foreign policy goal as president?
NADER: No, I'm saying that if we, with our leverage in the Middle East, are really interested in a peaceful settlement, we would support the peace forces on both sides, not the extremists, and the militarists on both sides.
BUCHANAN: Let me step in here...
CARLSON: Actually, we have to take a quick break. Actually, we're going to -- Pat, we're just going to commercial for a moment.
Coming up on the new and improved CROSSFIRE, we'll continue our debate with the living icons of both left and right, Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader. How would the world be different if one of them hadn't run for president? We'll ask them. Also your chance to fireback at us. And of course, our opportunity to fire back at you. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Their enemies call them spoilers. Their fans call them heroes. We call them perfect CROSSFIRE guests. Joining us tonight, Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader.
BEGALA: Mr. Buchanan, let's go back to...
BUCHANAN: You can call me Pat.
BEGALA: Pat, thank you. Welcome back to energy policy though. Let me return to that. As an American patriot, which I know you to be -- which I know you to be. As an American patriot, was it unpatriotic for corporate America to kill the fuel economy standards that were before the Congress, that would have saved American oil by reducing our dependence on it?
BUCHANAN: You mean the cafe standards?
BEGALA: Right, the corporate average fuel economy standards.
BUCHANAN: You know, I really believe in the market. I really do. I'm a conservative in that sense. And I think if the price of oil and gasoline goes up, that will regulate it. I do not believe in the cafe standards. I disagree with my friend Ralph on this.
As I say, I've got a Lincoln Navigator. And I think it's a very safe car. I think that's the reason I got it. I enjoy driving it. I probably pay a lot more for gasoline. And -- but no, I don't think the government should arbitrarily set that. Let the free market do it.
BEGALA: But they set the standards that it has today back in the '70s, which is why it's doing better than it would have otherwise. Detroit always tells us they can't. They always tell us. They said that seatbelts and safety glass, air bags, would all break -- bankrupt corporate America.
BUCHANAN: Paul Begala, you've never created a job in your life. The guys in Detroit know more...
BEGALA: What, and you have?
BUCHANAN: The guys in Detroit know more about making cars than you do.
BEGALA: Sure, let's trust Enron and Exxon. And they should run everything. Isn't that the Pat Buchanan...
CARLSON: That is totally -- I mean, Paul, that is so -- look, and speaking of corporate conspiracy theories, I know you're no stranger to those, Mr. Nader, a lot of people on the left have been saying look, there's this energy-related conspiracy. This administration's in bed with the big energy companies, etcetera, etcetera. And you better, you know, release the documents you used to formulate American energy policies.
So a judge orders this. The documents come out. Some are adopted. Most are whole. What did we learn? Well, we learned that the chief of staff to the Energy Secretary went to the dentist. His teeth are in good shape. We learned that the Energy Secretary on a trip abroad got snacks at 7:00 p.m. We learned that when he went to New Mexico, he was told to wear Dockers and a dress shirt, cotton.
We learned essentially nothing. We learned of no conspiracy. We learned all sorts of personal details that the left is always telling us ought to be off limits in political discourse? Aren't you embarrassed as a person who demanded these...?
NADER: We don't have to look at those documents. The Bush administration's marinated in oil. It's all for big oil, big gas.
CARLSON: That is -- I mean, give me a break.
NADER: Marinated in oil.
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's marinated in oil? What does that mean?
NADER: Just look at this. This company said it's going to be big business day with events all over the country, including Washington on the Enron supermarket of corporate crime fraud and abuse and accounting shenanigans. You know, all the things even you admit.
CARLSON: I'll be celebrating, yes.
NADER: The Web site, by the way, is citizenworks.org for those who are interested. Let me point this out. The biggest job loss in the auto industry in our generation occurred in the late '70s and early '80s when the Japanese came in with fuel-efficient cars. We lost over 100,000 jobs that way. Now they're doing it again. The Detroit executives...
CARLSON: But there were domestic attacks in the auto industry, remember, too.
NADER: Wait. Detroit, the executives in GM, Ford and Chrysler are continually having their head in the sand. Here's come Toyota and Honda with 48, 56, 58 miles per gallon hybrid cars. They can't sell them fast enough. And what's happening? It's happening again. The auto companies are in Detroit... CARLSON: Wait a minute, are you lecturing the auto companies on business efficiency?
NADER: No, I'm saying.
CARLSON: Are you serious? I mean, can you run GM more efficiently than GM?
NADER: Of course. Are you kidding? Listen, they lost almost half the market. And you...
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You're smarter than I realized.
NADER: No, no. The engineers in Detroit have the answer and they've had it for years.
CARLSON: Oh.
NADER: It's fuel efficiency, pollution control, and safety.
BEGALA: When you served President Nixon in the White House, it was reported that you advised him to burn the tapes. Should Dick Cheney burn the records of that secret Enron task force that are likely to incriminate him the way those tapes incriminated Nixon?
BUCHANAN: No, no, no. I think Nixon should've burned the tapes because they were tapes of deep, personal conversations. People didn't know they were being taped. I thought it was wrong. And I recommended that the president burn the tapes.
Now with regard to Dick Cheney, he, in my judgment, is standing up for principle here, which is that in his communications with certain people, he believes that as a part of the executive branch and elected office, they should remain confidential. And he's gone the right way. He has gone to the federal courts to argue that principle. What in heaven's name is wrong with that?
BEGALA: There's a federal principle that you think that a vice president and his staff should be able to be lobbied by corporate America in secret, and we not know about it?
BUCHANAN: But look...
BEGALA: When the environmentalists met with him for the phony baloney meeting, he paraded them in front of the cameras. So it wasn't any kind of confidentiality. It was to cover up the trail.
BUCHANAN: But look, I mean, I don't -- if Senator Kennedy is meeting with various people on the Hill, that's his business, not mine. And it's Dick Cheney's business.
CARLSON: OK, you have the last word. We're running out of time.
BUCHANAN: And it's a member of the cabinet, they can call the cabinet member up there, but they cannot call the vice president of the United States. NADER: The key is technology. It's here. It's proven. It's around the world to deal with the energy problem. Renewable energy, energy efficiency. Go to Professor Robert Williams at Princeton. Go to the leading expert, Arthur Rosenfeld, the California Energy Commission. Those are the people that were consulted.
CARLSON: And solo.
NADER: And go solo.
CARLSON: Go solo.
(CROSSTALK)
NADER: Does it have something to do with your tan?
BEGALA: Ralph Nader, Pat Buchanan, I want to thank you both for joining us. Believe me, we're going to have you back.
BUCHANAN: Repeal NAFTA. All right?
BEGALA: Don't tell me that. Just ahead -- I'm going to take the gloves off and whoop Tucker upside the head. It's all part of what we call "round 6." And also, your chance to take off the gloves and fire back at us. Let's tee it up. Let's go.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: It's that time. No guests, no gloves, and this means you, Paul Begala, no whimpering. It's round 6. CROSSFIRE distilled to its essence, pure debate. Here we go.
Now Paul, I don't know if you were at the National Press Club today. If you were, you would have seen a global warming conference. People concerned about global warming. Among them, those noted climatologists Ben & Jerry, makers of chunky monkey, ice cream manufacturers.
Very upset. But at the very same time, "The New York Times" science section comes out with a piece on Antarctica, saying Antarctica is in fact melting. But here's the catch, it's also freezing, which is to say nobody really knows what's happening with global warming. Nobody can prove it exists. Nobody can prove it doesn't exist. And you hear these ice cream makers are wading into the middle of this incredibly complex debate like they do. It's ridiculous.
BEGALA: Well, even George W. Bush, whose IQ's hovers around room temperature speaking of global warming.
CARLSON: No.
BEGALA: Acknowledges that there is global climate change. What Ben & Jerry are doing -- I admire this greatly. They're setting an example. They've created a new flavor, one sweet world. Everybody should go and buy that and eat that. And they're reducing their own carbon dioxide emissions by 10 percent. Now they're a successful, profitable, capitalist company, reducing their emissions. I say God bless Ben & Jerry.
CARLSON: You don't see -- you actually don't look at this and just see the on its face ludicrousness? This is like Orville Redenbacher taking a stand on human cloning. I mean, these people make -- no, but it is. They make ice cream.
I like the ice cream, but who is a spokesman for something as complicated, as complex, and frankly, as important as global warming?
BEGALA: They were also joined by the president of the Union of Concerned Scientists.
CARLSON: Well, that's -- you're making my point exactly. People who have no idea what they're talking about.
BEGALA: The National Academy of Sciences...
CARLSON: No. But isn't it typical? Isn't it typical? It's always to, rather than make a cogent, well-explained case for or against something, liberals always bring the dopey -- it's always Carly Simon up there, arguing for -- why is that?
BEGALA: We have finally found a corporation that Tucker will criticize. It happens to be Ben & Jerry's.
CARLSON: Actually, I like Ben & Jerry's. They ought to lay off the science, though.
BEGALA: Issue number two. Not as much fun. Take a look at this picture. John Walker Lindh, the American Taliban, alleged, his defense team now alleges that he was tortured. We see that picture. He apparently seems to be restrained there. But my own view is, now I don't believe...
CARLSON: Wait, you said this wasn't going to be as much fun as Ben & Jerry's. But I look at that, and I say actually, that's pretty amusing.
BEGALA: I have a different view of fun maybe, but that's for the weekend. I don't believe the reports, the allegations that he was tortured. But we wouldn't even have to worry about it if the Bush administration had played by the rules, treated him like what he is, an American.
When the right wing FBI spy, Robert Hanssen came up, the Clinton administration prosecuted him successfully by guaranteeing his rights. Walker Lindh was not allowed to see his attorney.
CARLSON: Really? Paul, I'm sorry, if you just wake up, my son. That was in northern Virginia. This took place in Afghanistan.
BEGALA: They should've brought his lawyer over there.
On the other side -- it was the matter of a battle. You've got to be kidding. They couldn't prove for over a week that he in fact was an American. He spoke English with an Arabic accent. It wasn't here who he was.
BEGALA: Arabic accent he picked up in Marin County. Just give him his lawyer, read him his rights.
CARLSON: You've seen the tape. The guy spoke with an accent. But look, with a lawyer in the middle of a war zone, why is it the Democrats, whenever anything happens, that you need a lawyer in the middle of this? It's a very telling instinct you have.
BEGALA: Because we are a nation of laws.
CARLSON: Yes, right. Give me a break.
BEGALA: Coming up next on the new CROSSFIRE could be your chance to fire back at Tucker and me. You're not going to want to miss that.
CARLSON: Yeah, good luck.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: It is finally here, the moment you've been waiting for. Your turn to fire back at us. First, we're going to look at the fire we received from the e-mail. Here's the first one. "I love the additions of James and Paul. I still have to use the mute button though when Carlson and Novak come on. Great show last night, at least the good half that I heard." Tracy Schwartz, McLean, Virginia. Tracy, just watch with your right eye covered. It will make a lot more sense.
CARLSON: Paul, this is clearly one of our many sufferers, suffering from dyslexia. She has put the names in exactly the wrong positions.
OK, next, oh, I like this one. From Ron Beaugh, Lake Charles, Louisiana writes, "Paul Begala's view of the 2000 election makes all future statements from him laughably suspect. Perhaps he's intended to be the comic relief?" Well if you think that's funny, Ron Beaugh of Lake Charles, Louisiana, you ought to listen to Paul Begala talk about his former boss, Bill Clinton and what a great guy he was.
BEGALA: Oh, I'm sure Ron loves him as well. Ron, thank you for that lovely missive. Here's one from a Nedra Smith. "The only thing missing from your opening was the feather boas. You could the WWF a run for its money." Nedra Smith, Lake Alfred, FL. Where is Jesse Ventura when we need him?
CARLSON: You know what? I'm going to turn down the opportunity to comment on the feather boas and move on right into one from Mark Dennis from Panama City, Florida who writes, "The most fun without a prophylactic." But you know what?
BEGALA: Father Mcgill is going to thank you for that one.
BEGALA: Nothing about prophylactics is fun. You've four children. You know what I'm talking about.
BEGALA: How about questions or comments from the audience? Yes, sir, tell us your name and where you're from?
JAVAD KAZALI (ph): My is Javad Kazali and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. And my question is, do we believe that homeland security director Ridge should be allowed to testify before the Congress?
BEGALA: We asked Tom Daschle that on this set last night. He said he was willing to subpoena him. And if he violates the subpoena, the next step is contempt of Congress. The guy's spending $38 billion of our money. We ought to know where the hell he's spending it.
CARLSON: Yes, he ought to go to prison if he doesn't get up there and participate in a political circus, choreographed by Congress. Absolutely. Don't you think, Paul? He ought to go to jail.
BEGALA: He should be accountable.
CARLSON: I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous.
BEGALA: Congress pays the bills.
CARLSON: Well, look, just answer your question in an honest way. And this may blow your mind, but he speaks to members of Congress all the time. If you want to speak to Tom Ridge and you're a member of Congress, you call him up and you come over and he briefs you. Certainly not before television cameras. That's the distinction.
BEGALA: But if you give $1200 bucks, you get a private briefing from the House of Republicans.
CARLSON: No, that's the last administration.
BEGALA: Thank you very much for that. That's the new policy?
CARLSON: What's your name?
MO KHYBER (ph): Mo Khyber from Berkeley Springs, West Virginia. When a Palestinian straps a bomb around his waist, and blows up innocence, that Palestinian is justifiably labeled a terrorist. But when Sharon kills innocent Palestinians, hundreds of children, you guys don't call Sharon a terrorist. Will you today call him a terrorist. And if not, why not?
CARLSON: I'll tell you why not. No, I won't call him a terrorist. And the difference is, I mean, if evidence ever arises that Sharon or people who work from him on his orders intentionally killed civilians, I think it'd be fair to call him a terrorist. That evidence has never surfaced, as you're fully aware, and that's the distinction. One of intent. People who go out to kill civilians are terrorists. Those who don't are not.
KHYBER: Civilians are killed as a result of that military incursion. He's not a terrorist? BEGALA: The reason that we use the phrase "collateral damage," as to when the United States has used military activities, when we are at war, it is one of the tragedies of wars that sometimes innocent dies. But that is not the purpose and intent of the United States, or of Israel in this case.
When a Palestinian terrorist straps bombs to his body, walks into a pizzeria, filled with teenagers, he is not going after a military target. He is a terrorist. And there's an enormous distinction. There's a distinction between right and wrong.
KHYBER: And Sharon is a terrorist when he kills 1200 Palestinians, many of them innocent. And you guys are immoral to call it collateral damage.
CARLSON: These are military incursions. See, I guess that's the distinction right there. A civilized nation grieves when its soldiers accidentally, unintentionally kill civilians. A terrorist celebrates when he or his companions intentionally kill them. You don't see the difference of intent that makes all the difference?
KHYBER: Most commentators like Will and Krautheimer, when they write their idiotic columns, they grieve over Israeli deaths. They never once grieve over Palestinian deaths.
CARLSON: We're going to have them on as guests. And you can ask them directly.
BEGALA: Yes, sir. Will and Krautheimer are probably not going to be coming on any time soon. So I don't want to be hammering them. But no, Tucker, I think this is a rare area. And I promise it will never happen again. But we are in agreement because it is about intent and a decent nation does not target innocents.
CARLSON: Well, I hope it never does happen, because the moment you start speaking in complete, reasonable, non-fervid sentences, Paul, Begala, is the minute I start to get chills up and down the back of my spine. But there's something wrong with me.
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Rodney King moment here, when we just, you know, all just talk.
CARLSON: Not a chance. We cannot all just get along on this show. And that's one of the beauties of it.
BEGALA: Thank goodness for that. From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good-night from CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for more CROSSFIRE. We'll see you then.
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