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CNN Crossfire
Should Hamdi Be Treated as an American?; Is It Time for British Monarchy to Go?
Aired April 05, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. Tonight in the CROSSFIRE, a second American Taliban arrives in the United States. Should he be treated like an American?
As Great Britain says goodbye to its beloved queen mother, what is the future of the monarchy?
The jabs never stop as the left meets the right.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: On the left.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Right? I'm always right.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight on CROSSFIRE, from the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
BEGALA: Good evening and welcome to our all new CROSSFIRE coming to you live from the George Washington University, right here in Washington, D.C. We've got a terrific show lined up tonight.
First, a huge royal procession in London carried the queen mother to lie in state in Westminster Hall. With her passing, many Britons are beginning to ask again if it's time to do away with the monarchy.
We have with us one of the best and most controversial royal watchers in the world, Kitty Kelley. She'll debate the future of the monarchy with a British journalist with a really cool accent, so stick around for him and her.
But first, an American-born man who was captured with the Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, arrived in Norfolk, Virginia today on a military plane from the U.S. Navy Base in Guantanamo, Cuba. Yasser Hamdi is now in a U.S. Navy jail. Hamdi was born in Baton Rouge, Louisiana to Saudi parents. The family moved back to Saudi Arabia soon after his birth, and the key questions are, should Hamdi be stripped of his U.S. citizenship if it's proven he fought with the Taliban, and should he be tried as a traitor?
Tucker, the first question I'm going to ask is how in the world did Bush go four months without catching this guy?
CARLSON: Paul, slow down. Should he be tried as a traitor? That's like saying, if your house is on fire should you try and put it out. The guy took up arms against his country. He is, by definition, a traitor. What do you mean, should he be tried as a traitor?
BEGALA: So you're criticizing Ashcroft and Bush who did not charge John Walker Lindh with treason.
CARLSON: They guy shows up in a cave...
BEGALA: They didn't try Lindh as a traitor.
CARLSON: ... and he says "oh by the way, I'm from Louisiana." It takes them four months. The Begala buzzer has rung. That's it for you, Paul Begala.
It's time for our guests. Please give a warm CROSSFIRE welcome to defense attorney Jayne Weintraub and Republican Congressman Bob Barr of Georgia.
CARLSON: Now, Jayne Weintraub, this character Hamdi is really just playing the citizenship card, isn't he? I mean, he doesn't like Cuba, 80 and sunny not good enough for him, so he says, "oh by the way, I'm an American citizen. Take me to Virginia." I mean, it's not rooted in reality. It's happenstance he's a citizen and he's just playing the card, isn't that right?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don't think he was just playing the card at all, and I think that they probably knew he was an American because he spoke English a long time ago when they got him in November. I think that the real issue here is, he is an American. It's not whether or not he's going to play the card. He's an American, and he needs to be treated as an American.
CARLSON: But what does that mean, with all due respect? I mean look, if I'm flying with my wife...
WEINTRAUB: With all due respect, it means that he's entitled to the rights of the constitution of the United States just like any other American.
CARLSON: But let me ask the deeper question though, Jayne Weintraub, and that is why exactly? He happened to be born in Louisiana. If I'm flying with my wife through Bangkok and she gives birth in Bangkok, does that mean our child is a Thai citizen? Maybe. No, actually not in that case it doesn't. He never fulfilled any responsibilities as a citizen, never voted, paid taxes. He left when he was 3, lived in Saudi Arabia. In what sense is he a citizen?
WEINTRAUB: Well, he's a citizen because he was born here and he lived here the first several years of his life, and as of right now, the rules of the game are he's an American citizen. You can't change the rules because you don't like the man. You can't just strip someone of their citizenship without process of law, and that's all I'm saying. I'm not here to defend Yasser Hamdi or any terrorist, or any terrorism. I'm here to defend the United States constitution. I have to tell you...
CARLSON: That's great.
WEINTRAUB: ... can't make exceptions.
BEGALA: Congressman Barr, let me bring you into this because I do want to defend the constitution as well. But first, I'm going to ask you to try to defend the indefensible, which is how in the world the Bush-Ashcroft Justice Department went four months without being able to figure out that this guy was an American?
First, let me show you a bit of videotape from Central Command, General Tommy Franks, talking about this man and what they thought of him when they first captured him. Take a look at that, and let me get your response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL TOMMY FRANKS, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: From the very beginning, there was a possibility in everyone's mind that he might be an American because he spoke English, and as to what happened beyond that in terms of how the information on the birth certificate and all of that was run down, I really don't know. I'm really not sure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: So the military folks had this figured out early. What in the world happened to the Bush-Ashcroft Justice Department? It took them four months to figure out the obvious.
REP. BOB BARR (R), GEORGIA: Well, the obvious answer, Paul, is the fact that they wanted to get their facts straight. If they hadn't done that, if they had jumped to the conclusion one way or the other you'd be on their rear end saying, why did you jump to a conclusion?
What they wanted to do is get their facts straight. We now know that this fellow was born in Louisiana. Let's go ahead, consider him a U.S. citizen, fry him after we convict him of treason, how about that?
BEGALA: Let's at least give him a fair trial. But no, let me press this point though, because I think you're letting Bush and Ashcroft off far, far too easily. The guy said he was an American. He gave his name.
WEINTRAUB: Four months ago.
BEGALA: Place of birth, had a birth certificate, and still they held him in Guantanamo like a Taliban, not like an American for four months, and I think that might prejudice the case against him, mightn't it?
BARR: Well -- I don't think so. You can be an American Taliban and they have every right when they capture somebody, whether they are a U.S. citizen or not, on foreign soil fighting against the United States to detain them, and international law also supports us on this. You can detain these people for a sufficient time to figure out exactly what their status is, who they are...
WEINTRAUB: It's going to take some time? Four months to get a birth certificate?
BARR: ... what information they have, and then once you determine how you're going to try them and that is up to the government to determine that, then go ahead bring him up as we did the other fellow, put him into custody. At an appropriate time, try him. I think they ought to try him and Walker for treason.
CARLSON: Jayne Weintraub.
WEINTRAUB: Except that according to the law, we need eyewitnesses to treason and they didn't happen to have those.
BARR: I mean, that's the whole purpose.
WEINTRAUB: You think they should just fry them without a trial and with a jury and without...
BARR: Jayne, that's -- Jayne. Jayne, that's the whole purpose of bringing somebody up here and putting your case together.
CARLSON: Now, Jayne Weintraub...
WEINTRAUB: If that's the whole purpose then you should develop the evidence.
CARLSON: Wait hold on, wait let me. Second cross, let me ask you a question. I'm against segregated housing, so I think it's absolutely fine that he would be in the company of other Taliban in Guantanamo Bay. Let me ask you this, though. I don't know why you and Begala and lots of Democrats don't cut the administration and the military some slack.
Let's be honest. Let me put it this way. When I think of someone from Louisiana, let me show you what I think of. I think, you know, I think of James Carville now. Now, it doesn't mean that everyone from Louisiana looks that way, thank heaven. Many do, sadly.
But I think you can understand if this character is caught with an AK-47 in a cave in eastern Afghanistan in the company of Arabic- speaking Taliban soldiers, then maybe when he says, "by the way, I'm from Baton Rouge," the military might, I don't know, want to investigate further. It might take a while to verify that claim, because it is a pretty unusual claim. I think you could admit that.
WEINTRAUB: How long would it take to get a birth certificate? One day. If the government of the United States has to take four months to verify somebody's citizenship, we're all in trouble with our intelligence.
CARLSON: Now, wait. No. No, I don't think -- I don't quite think you're being -- I don't think you're being fair there. I mean there are a lot of forged documents. We learned that on September 11. The terrorists forge documents all the time, and I'm wondering what the harm is keeping him with Taliban soldiers in sunny Guantanamo Bay. What's the problem?
WEINTRAUB: The harm wasn't keeping him with the Taliban soldiers. The harm was keeping him out of the process that he's entitled to. The harm is keeping him separated from a lawyer, separated from any family, and separated from being in a court. He is not even charged with any crime, and yet you have just unlawfully detained him for four months. He is an American of the United States, and we don't know anything about what he did.
BARR: Hey sports fans, remember something here. We're fighting a war.
WEINTRAUB: And you say it's OK because we can just look for a while.
BARR: Hello, we're fighting a war. There is a lot more things that our government has on its mind than stopping the entire process of the war...
WEINTRAUB: So we can just throw them all in a cage like an animal?
BARR: ... in order to -- oh, I don't think any of these people are treated like animals. They should be.
WEINTRAUB: You don't.
BARR: But they're not being.
WEINTRAUB: Have you looked at what they look like when they come back? Did you see John Walker when he came back?
BARR: Yes, they look a lot better than when they were over there fighting.
WEINTRAUB: I don't think so. I don't think so. And although this is a time of war...
BEGALA: Ms. Weintraub, just a second. Let me ask the congressman this question.
WEINTRAUB: ... think about what the war is about, congressman.
BEGALA: Ms. Weintraub.
WEINTRAUB: Don't ever lose sight...
BEGALA: All right, Ms. Weintraub. Hang on just a second. Time to go on. Let me give Congressman Barr a chance to move the debate a little bit forward now. You were a federal prosecutor before you became a congressman. Is there any provision whereby the government could strip this man of his citizenship now that we know that he's a citizen?
BARR: I'm not sure that we really would want to do that. Yes, there are. There are certain ways that a person can lose their citizenship, and if they don't voluntarily surrender it, if they meet the criteria, yes they can have their citizenship stripped. But to be honest with you...
BEGALA: But you're with me. He shouldn't be stripped of his citizenship.
BARR: ... I'm not sure that we would want to do that because I think this fellow, as John Walker, is guilty of treason and they ought to treat him as a U.S. citizen, prosecute him for treason.
BEGALA: And so, did Bush and Ashcroft wimp out by not charging John Walker Lindh with treason?
BARR: I think as a former prosecutor, I think it would be just as difficult not to try him for treason as it would be to try him for treason, so go for the whole enchilada.
WEINTRAUB: Have you seen -- that's a typical prosecutor. Have you seen the evidence to...
BARR: Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment.
WEINTRAUB: ... go for everything and if anything sticks for a conviction, that's wonderful? How about evaluating evidence?
CARLSON: Well, is it typical?
BARR: That's what they're doing. They're gathering the evidence now.
CARLSON: Let me ask a question.
BARR: And you just criticized them for doing that.
CARLSON: Now hold up. Jayne Weintraub.
WEINTRAUB: Congressman Barr, what you're...
CARLSON: Wait. Let me just ask you this. You raised a really interesting question, actually Congressman Barr did. Is this guy making a mistake by claiming it? If you were his lawyer, who knows you may be some day, is he making a mistake claiming to be an American citizen? Wouldn't it be better to advise him not to claim that or admit it or whatever it may be?
WEINTRAUB: Well, first of all, if I'm his lawyer, the minute that he touches down on American soil, I file a writ of habeas corpus and I try to get some information and force the government to try and justify the detention. That's number one.
But number two is, do I think it's a mistake? No, because this is the only way to get him into the court process. He is an American and I am not saying, don't treat him like any other person. I am saying, treat him like any other person charged with a horrible, heinous crime. If the government proves its case, he'll be convicted. Look at the World Trade Center defendants in the 1990s case. They were given due process of law.
CARLSON: Now wait a second. The hyperbole alarm went off a minute ago when you described the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay as being held like animals. I mean, what exactly don't they have that a prisoner ought to have? They're fed Fruit Loops every day, literally Fruit Loops. They have -- truly they have their own religious text. They have their -- they're being ministered to by Islamic religious leaders. I mean how exactly are they being treated like animals?
WEINTRAUB: Didn't they have the right to counsel? Do you think that they have lawyers? Do you think that they have any communication with their families? Do you really think that they're being treated fairly? Do you think they're being interrogated fairly or do you think this is...
(CROSSTALK)
BARR: Saying they won't give them an international phone line is not the same as saying they're treated like dogs. Now come on. You can't have it both ways.
BEGALA: Right. Right. But, Congressman Barr, they may in fact, many of them certainly will face a military tribunal with far fewer rights than an American courtroom. Do you think that President Bush should extend his very broad mandate for these military tribunals to include American citizens, like Hamdi as well?
BARR: Absolutely not and the president...
BEGALA: Good for you.
BARR: I have spoken with him directly and he has said they have no plans and will not do that.
BEGALA: I can't believe I just praised Bob Barr, but let me do it again. Good for you. We can try him like an American.
BARR: Unfortunately...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now this is getting dangerous for me. I have to stop right there and we have to -- because we're going to take a commercial break. And when the new CROSSFIRE returns, our audience gets a chance to fire away at our guests. And later our quote of the day. Here's our first hint. A famous first lady implies she would not vote again for her husband. It's a cold evening in their house tonight. We'll fill you in.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: We are back with our guests in the CROSSFIRE. Should military courts be used to try Americans suspected of fighting with the Taliban? Should they be used at all in the war on terror? That's our debate tonight. Paul Begala. BEGALA: Congressman Barr, let me try to end that little love fest we closed the last segment on and try to find a point of controversy, and that is torture. Isn't the fact that we now have found a second American Taliban over at Guantanamo a good case to not ever torture these folks over at GITMO? What is, God forbid, this man had been tortured. Then we find out he's an American citizen. That would have been a disaster, wouldn't it?
BARR: Well, it would be no matter what the background. That is not something that we should fall into. I agree with the recent decision by the court system, even in Israel, that a civilized society should not engage in even moderate use of torture.
BEGALA: Making you even more civilized than Tucker Carlson, which is a low bar I know, Carlson.
CARLSON: That's true. I'm going to stay away from torture, Jayne Weintraub, because you provided me ammunition. I was thinking about it over the break just a minute ago, a line that you uttered a couple moments ago when you said that these characters held at Guantanamo Bay ought to have lawyers. Is there any precedent for that?
Can you think -- can you name one instance of a government giving prisoners of war attorneys in the first couple of months after they're captured? And second, who would pay for that? Would they get public defenders at American taxpayer's expense. I mean you got to flush out that crazy idea a little bit.
WEINTRAUB: Well, actually one of the rules that the Pentagon rules have come out with for the military tribunals happens to include basically a public defender being appointed...
CARLSON: For the tribunal?
WEINTRAUB: ... from a certain list if there is a military tribunal, if there's any process.
CARLSON: Right.
WEINTRAUB: Well, when you talk about -- how long do you think you can just hold people incommunicado like this? Do you think that a year, two years later, maybe somebody's going to think they're entitled to some relief? Do you think you can just bring people over here, say they're prisoners of war and hold them?
CARLSON: Ms. Weintraub, let me ...
WEINTRAUB: I don't think so.
CARLSON: All right, on that frightening question, let me turn to our audience who both want to quiz Congressman Barr and you, Ms. Weintraub. Let's start with this gentleman right here. Tell us your name and where you're from and then your question.
MATTHEW KRELL: My name is Matthew Krell (ph). I'm from Hattiesburg, Mississippi. Congressman Barr, do we have the right to hold American citizens in a prison camp that's in a foreign country and is intended for prisoners of war?
BARR: Yes we do, and by the way, let me say to the student there from Hattiesburg, as one former colonial to a current one, it's good to be with you all electronically at my old Alma Mater, GW. I'm a GW graduate, so it's good to be with you all.
KRELL: Excellent.
BARR: The answer to the question is yes, the rules that do prevail in this country for domestic criminal proceedings are different from those that prevail in wartime and the rules of engagement, the rules of international war, the rules of international law clearly establish that you can hold folks that are rounded up in the process of fighting a war that are taken prisoners, can be held for periods of time, whereas different rules would prevail if they were simply a domestic criminal defendant here at home.
BEGALA: But, you'll notice, that this administration chose not to, and being an American citizen is sort of a get-out-of-GITMO-free card sadly, despite (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I want to get Ms. Weintraub to respond to that as well. Should Americans be held overseas?
WEINTRAUB: They chose to ignore it. Well he's already ignored it for four months. I mean it's not a matter of they didn't verify it. They were told and advised he was an American and asserted the fact that he was a United States citizen. Four months has already gone by. In this country...
BARR: I beg your pardon.
WEINTRAUB: If he were in America, he could not be detained illegally without charges being brought against him for four months. He'd be entitled to a hearing.
CARLSON: This is ludicrous. I mean it took them...
BEGALA: She's exactly right.
CARLSON: No, she's actually not right. It took them months to verify it. The guy's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Baton Rouge.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: They have an airport in Baton Rouge. They have Xerox machines. They have fax machines.
(CROSSTALK)
WEINTRAUB: They do have courthouses in Baton Rouge.
VANESSA MALTON: Hi, my name is Vanessa Malton (ph). I'm originally from San Francisco, California. My question is what is the process for stripping citizenship, and why should a man who did not respect other American citizens be given the same rights as they have? BEGALA: Let's ask Ms. Weintraub on that.
WEINTRAUB: He's given those rights because he was born with those rights. He is an American. Let's not forget what this war is all about and I think it's important to take a moment to focus. What makes our country so great and threads our country is the fabric of our Constitution. Those are not words. The flag is the flag is the flag. We are Americans. Be proud of being Americans. Part of that sometimes comes a test and here's our test. Show we are the world we are the greatest country in the world, and give him the process he's due.
CARLSON: We all agree with that, Jayne Weintraub. But, Bob Barr, let's get to the second and more interesting part of the question. How do we strip this character of his citizenship?
BARR: Well again, I'm not sure that we want to, and I'm not sure that he wants us to because if he is tried for Treason, then he can be sentenced to death, the same incidentally as he could be if he were tried in a military tribunal.
But if a person, for example, enlists in the military of a foreign country, even though they may not want to give up their U.S. citizenship, our country has every right to do that and can strip somebody. The government could, in this case, I suppose have the option of trying to establish as part of an effort to strip him of his citizenship, show that he had taken up arms against us.
But heck, if they're going to do that, then they might as well, again, go the whole way as I think they ought to, show that he took up arms against our country, show that he was a U.S. citizen by virtue of his birth, and then try him for Treason and then convict him and -
WEINTRAUB: Congressman, you're forgetting what the rules are.
CARLSON: That's going to have to be the last (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Jayne Weintraub.
WEINTRAUB: You can't try him for treason. There's no evidence of that.
BARR: Yes, you can. Absolutely you can.
CARLSON: Thanks, Jayne Weintraub, defense attorney, and Bob Barr, Republican Congressman from Georgia. Thank you all both.
BARR: Thank you all.
CARLSON: I know it's difficult by satellite. Thank you very much for joining us tonight on CROSSFIRE.
WEINTRAUB: Thank you.
BEGALA: And just ahead, the always unpredictable CROSSFIRE News Alert, including why Katherine Harris was turned away from a political event by a Republican. And our quote of the day, here's hint No. 2: The wife of a flamboyant politician says she's had enough of the spotlight. We'll tell you who she is and what she said next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Now it's time to look at those unusual and interesting stories that you might not find anywhere but here in our CROSSFIRE News Alert.
The Southern Baptist Convention said Thursday it will urge members to boycott Howard Johnson's during its annual meeting because the St. Louis Howard Johnson's is hosting a three-day sex bash, titled "Beat me in St. Louis." That's enough of that. The funfest is sponsored by a group, charmingly entitled, St. Louis Leather and Lace. Well, the folks at Leather and Lace were unavailable for CROSSFIRE, but comments apparently yes, they were all tied up.
CARLSON: Don't mock them, Paul. Those are your people. And from the Clinton alumni file, this just in, Kathleen Willy comes full circle. Ten years ago, the 55-year-old Willy was a committed Democrat. Then famously the president groped her. Soon she became a McCain supporter.
Now Willy has entered the world of talk radio. You can catch her show Sundays on AM radio in Richmond, Virginia. Bill Clinton is likely to be a frequent topic of discussion. "I think he's even more pathetic than when he left office" Willy told "The Washington Post" this morning. True, yet sadly he makes much more money.
BEGALA: She's about 300 pounds shy of Rush Limbaugh and then she'll be right in that talk radio category. Now speaking of another person who had a little moment of fame, remember Katherine Harris, the makeup caked election stealing dragon lady? That one, yes. Well, she's popped up in the news again and I couldn't be happier.
The Tiger Bay Club of Florida, it draws all the big shots from all over the state to its annual dinner. But when Ms. Harris showed up without a ticket, Tiger Bay President Marge Baldwin, a fellow Republican, showed her the door. Don't worry, Katherine, you'll always be welcome at the annual Cruella De Vil appreciation dinner.
CARLSON: And, as if you needed more evidence that it's over, done, finished, caput, ended for the formerly bearded former vice president, this. Democrats in Florida are holding their state conference next week. Al Gore will be there. If you want to see him speak, and apparently some people did, it will cost you $50. But if you want to actor Alec Baldwin give his deeply nuanced take on global affairs, you'll have to shell out $125. My advice, wait for the movie.
BEGALA: I like Alec, though. That's going to be fun. It's worth $125. And now, the one and only CROSSFIRE quote of the day. It is from the straight-talking Terry Ventura, wife of the governor of Minnesota, Jesse "The Body" Ventura. Responding to the big question, will Jesse run for reelection this year, the first lady said: "Listen, if it was up to me, we'd be packing in December." Good for you, Terry. Straight talking. CARLSON: You know what, Paul, if it was up to me, they never would have unpacked. That guy's 15 minutes are so long over and thanks to the heavy drinking voters in Minnesota and a few unscrupulous television bookers, we can not get away from that guy.
BEGALA: Governor Ventura?
CARLSON: He's thick-skinned. He's silly. He's grouchy.
BEGALA: And he's going to break my co-host like a pretzel.
CARLSON: Coming up on CROSSFIRE, fighting in the Middle East causes a member of the Nobel Peace Prize Committee to change her mind about one of the 1994 winners. Saying goodbye to the queen mother has some Britons again asking, is it time for the royals to bow out? That and more, right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Tucker, I wonder if these fuzzy headed European establishment carrying elitist for the Nobel Prize committee looked at the role that Yasser Arafat has played in financing ...
CARLSON: I don't know ...
BEGALA: ... terrorism.
CARLSON: Actually no, yank his Nobel Prize.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Yank Henry Kissinger's, you know what, I would be proud -- I would be proud. I'm not in danger of getting a Nobel Prize anytime soon so I can say this.
BEGALA: You know they turned me -- they turned me down again this year.
CARLSON: And I think they're going to again.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But you might win one and that's my gripe with them. Did you know (UNINTELLIGIBLE) won one? She made up this ludicrous story about her childhood. Gorbachev won one. I don't think it's been cool since Teddy Roosevelt won one.
BEGALA: But ...
CARLSON: In 1906. It just -- it's just a political statement, that's all it is, and this just makes it transparent, and I -- and I hope they do get rid of that.
BEGALA: The notion that these yahoos would spit on Peres who his whole life has been very courageous and consistent in the search of peace ... CARLSON: That's right.
BEGALA: And ignore Arafat's role in the terrorism when we now have documentary proof that he sponsored ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: They gave the Nobel Peace Prize to the American Friends Service Committee, that's all you need to know.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: And that's all you need to know, and that's all you to know more importantly. So when CROSSFIRE continues, is there a role for the British royalty in the 21st century? We will fire that question to our guests in the CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Britons by the tens of thousands lined the streets of London to say a final good-bye to their beloved queen mother. Hundreds of Royal Guard, sailors of the Royal Navy and members of the Royal Air Force escorted the queen mother's coffin in a solemn procession. Behind the gun carriage walked 14 members of the royal family including Prince Charles, his sons, Prince William and Prince Harry. The queen mother who died last Saturday at the age of 101 will lie in state at Westminster Hall until her funeral Tuesday.
Some are again questioning the need for the royal family. Some are even saying it's time for them to step aside, to go away. To debate that issue, let's hear it, rule Britannia. Music please -- a royal welcome to our guest, Kitty Kelley, author of "The Royals." She's now working on a book about the Bush family dynasty, and Martin Walker, chief international correspondent for the "United Press International" and author of the book "The Caves of Perigord."
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: What a British gentleman Martin Walker is to hold the chair for Ms. Kelley like that.
CARLSON: Now Kitty Kelley, it strikes me now -- you know I want to put too much vigorous defense of the Royal family here, but let's be honest. What -- you know England doesn't have a lot without them. I mean it's a country with bad weather, terrible food, warm beer, the bars close at 11, it's essentially a museum. The royals are the chief exhibit. You take them out and nobody's going to come. The country doesn't have anything. Is that right?
KITTY KELLEY, AUTHOR, "THE ROYALS": Now what are you going to do if I go, you're right?
CARLSON: But I'll agree with you even more.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And complement your reasonableness ...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN WALKER, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, UPI: Well I'll say he's absolutely right about the English, but as a Scot I've got to say he's entirely wrong about that part of it.
CARLSON: You know what you do have Martin Walker, you have the strongest bravest, wisest, kindest leader in the free world, the real leader of the free world, Tony Blair, why the hell do you need a queen when you've got the finest leader in free world in Blair, who by the way right now is in ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: This is basically a treasonous statement by the way.
BEGALA: No, oh, this is -- this is a shock, Blair is smarter than Bush.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's totally not true.
BEGALA: Let's all settle down here. And he's down in Crawford. Texas right now teaching junior to say no. Pittsburgh is the Midwest. Sir, this is the Mideast. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
WALKER: No, you're entirely right, but Blair is smart enough not to let Bush know that. I mean that's the real skill. You know the thing about Blair is the Blair is the sensible one. He is the efficient part of the constitution. The royal family is the entertainment part of the constitution. What would "People" magazine do without the British royal family?
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: What would we Brits do without having that constant entertaining soap opera of the royals around.
KELLEY: All right, now I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, there's basically no British journalism apart from the royals. Isn't that right?
KELLEY: I agree ...
WALKER: That's why we come over here.
KELLEY: I can't believe I'm sitting here defending the monarchy, but they come from their history, it's the continuity and especially this week and at this particular time, and it's not exactly fitting to talk about getting rid of them, but there is nothing in place to get rid of the monarchy right now. CARLSON: Well, here's what ...
KELLEY: Absolutely nothing, and your argument about tourism ...
CARLSON: Yes.
KELLEY: Now, please, the last time you went to London, did you take tea with the queen? I don't think so.
CARLSON: No, and I'm proud to say I didn't even try, but let me put it this -- let me put in some perspective. Now, you've written a book, not entirely flattering about the Royal family and so the current kind of understanding is they're drunk and they're deeply eccentric, probably true, but let me put it in some perspective. This is a quote from Mary Melton (ph) from "The L.A. Times". Here's what she says. Yes, the royals live bizarre, isolated lives surrounded by oodles of security and constant pampering, but really it's no more bizarre an isolated life in that of Tom Cruise or Cher. And I think that kind of puts it in perspective.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Aren't they fundamentally less annoying than Bruce Springsteen?
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: Wait a minute.
CARLSON: That's my question to you.
KELLEY: But you just named Americans. We live in a democracy. I'm a citizen, Martin's a subject, there is a big difference. The monarchy hangs over the country like this great big crystal chandelier and underneath it is the aristocracy and what the monarchy does, yes, we have a ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: It doesn't behead people anymore, though. It's not that scary.
KELLEY: Doesn't behead anybody, but ...
WALKER: I know there's lots of regret about that.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: It perpetuates the class system, that's what it does.
BEGALA: Well, in fact, it has consequences for governing as well. Let me -- let me just put up on the screen and read to you the oath of office that members of Parliament have to take. Here in America we're familiar with the president and our members of Congress swearing an oath to the constitution. Here's what they have to swear in Great Britain. I swear by almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors according to law so help me God. They swear allegiance to a middle-aged woman.
KELLEY: And see we don't do that with ...
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) It's worse -- it's worse than that. I mean, we don't have an actual people's Republican court. We have the Queen's Bench of the court in Britain. The British officer corps of the army -- they hold their commissions not from any kind of British constitution, they hold their commissions of the queen. And this why for many years I was a Republican, but something has changed. The reason why I was a Republican was I thought that the queen royal family was a keystone of an entire rotten feudal antiquated class system.
But the Tony Blair you were just praising has gotten rid of the House of Lords as a second chamber of unelected people who get there from right of birth. We're now moving toward a kind of modernization of the British system, in which the royal family becomes a kind of an embellishing irrelevance, and I'm quite happy with that because what do we do without them? We would have to have some kind of elected president, some antiquated politician. My god, we'd have President Thatcher for life.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'll tell you what -- I'll tell you what ...
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: Anything's better than that.
CARLSON: No, you would go bankrupt. Because in fact, you took issue with my point about tourism, I still think I'm right, though, I haven't had tea with the queen, good point. But in terms of the crown, is this kind of dramatic money maker for Britain. So ...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: But what do tourists get that the crown ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Tourists don't get anything, which is why I want to bring in this point -- $11 million U.S. every year Parliament gives the royal family. In return the royal family generates $189 million U.S. through rent of properties it owns, et cetera, all of which goes to the British Treasury. So if this were all to be taken away, the country would go under, wouldn't it?
KELLEY: No ...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: No ...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: No, I absolutely disagree.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) list which Parliament votes to the royal family is more like $60 million a year.
CARLSON: Right. In fact, I did my homework, as well, and it comes to 67 million pounds.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Well, I don't -- I don't ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I don't think you were on Royalnet.com this afternoon.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But anyway, let me put it up on the board.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Let me put something up here because I think -- I think I can ram my point home.
BEGALA: OK now ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Go ahead.
BEGALA: Sam and Christy (ph), our producers back stage have -- are going to put up on the screen exactly what the British taxpayers -- first off, this is a family worth $14 billion in United States dough.
WALKER: At the least.
BEGALA: At the least, and this is what they get every year. The queen herself gets 11.3 million in salary, transport is almost $8 million, $37,200 for press clippings, and $1.3 million in salary for flunkies, just last year they bought new silk walls and gold gilding for one of their many palaces at the cost of the taxpayers of 214 grand. Can't they support themselves on 14 billion? They need 67 more.
WALKER: They've missed out on the cost of the Royal flight or the RAF and they've missed out the cost of the Royal yachts. So, and all of that.
CARLSON: Wait a second, I mean your -- the picture you've painting of this profitaligic (ph) spend-thrift family isn't entirely accurate -- in fact it's not accurate at all. I want to read you a quote -- this is from Prince Charles. He gave this at a hotel opening in London.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: In 19 ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well thank you Kitty Kelley. I appreciate that and I'm not quite sure what you mean by it, but listen ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Listen to this. 1993 (ph) -- hold on here -- committed environmentalist Prince Charles gets up, he gives this quote -- he says, "how much more down to earth can one get than the saving of 1.34 liters per individual flush achieved through the each and London Hilton's example of banging a brick into and every (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the hotel.
Let me translate. The hotel puts a brick in the back of every john and saves this water. Today we see the glamour of profile initiatives of this kind, but their success depends on the very unglamorous business of reducing environmental impact step by step, flush by point.
The point is this guy is obsessed with saving resources, water, money.
WALKER: And he talks to trees as well.
CARLSON: That's exactly right. Isn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: So nervous, that's why they pray for the queen's continuing good health because they don't want to be left with Prince Charles.
BEGALA: Well can you explain something else to me, Martin? The British royal family is not British.
WALKER: No.
BEGALA: They're German. They're not Windsors. They created that name in 1917. They are the Sox Cobert Gudder (ph) family of Germany.
WALKER: Absolutely.
BEGALA: They don't even get -- they got the Germans as the royal family of England.
(CROSSTALK) WALKER: We think we're getting to them, actually. Well, this has been the case since 1713 when the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) came in and before that it was a Dutchman. And before that it was a bunch of thugs (ph) who came over from Normandy and William the Conqueror.
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: But the point ...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: The point is ...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: ... how adaptable they are.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: The thing is -- the thing is ...
KELLEY: They will do anything to survive and that's what they did after the war, changed the name right away.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: After the First World ...
WALKER: During the First World -- during the First World War.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: How adaptable would the country be? Let's say they were to leave tomorrow, what specifically would England have left?
KELLEY: Tucker, that is like saying let's say I wake up tomorrow and 5-foot-10. It just would never happen. There's no way in the world ...
CARLSON: That's a bad experiment, Kitty Kelley. Bear with me here. I want you to understand how important these eccentric drunken people are to the English consciousness. I want her to listen ...
(CROSSTALK)
KELLEY: First of all, they would never, ever leave of their own accord. There is no way in the world that these people would ever give up their gazillions, their castles, their, as you call them, their flunkies, their silk walls. Why? Why would they give it up? There has to be something in place that will do it overtime and they justify their existence because of their duty to their country, because they perform duties like a president.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Have a few seconds. Just quickly, will we see the demise of the monarchy in the 21st Century?
WALKER: Certainly in my lifetime, maybe, I rather doubt it. It's hard wired. It's what makes us British at the end of the day.
BEGALA: Well, I'd still prefer the warm beer. But Martin Walker, Kitty Kelley, thank you both very much for joining us.
And coming up later on CROSSFIRE, your chance to fire back at us, but get this, we get to return fire as well.
But just ahead round six where Tucker and I get to face off without any guests, without any rules, without any gloves. Tonight I will unveil incontrovertible proof that George W. Bush is taking his marching orders from the energy lobby. Tucker, in turn, will try to feebly attempt to accuse my Democratic Party chairman of playing the race cards. See who wins when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's CROSSFIRE round six. No guest to host, two issues, and two little time. So let's start (UNINTELLIGIBLE) go first. Paul Begala, you probably didn't see the speech that your leader Terry McAuliffe, head of the DNC, gave yesterday in Kansas City. It was embarrassing and it wrong, and I want you to repudiate it.
He made the point, this on the 34th anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther King, that the Republican party and Bush specifically are racists. He accused Bush of siding with the Adams Mark Hotel and supporting segregation at that hotel. He said again and again this is a president that's against the legacy of Martin Luther King. He even tried to tie Social Security reform to Bush's racism.
And I just don't think you could disagree on issues, but I think you will agree that the race card at that level is out of bounds, it divides the country, and it's wrong.
BEGALA: So simply speaking the truth that that is a racially disproportionate impacts on Bush's policies, that's somehow playing the race card.
CARLSON: I disagree.
BEGALA: Let me make my point.
Social Security, for example, poor people and African Americans depend on it much more greatly than do rich talk show white guys, blow hards on cable television, OK.
CARLSON: Speak for yourself.
BEGALA: When Bush, if Bush gets his grubby little trust fund paws on Social Security's trust fund, he's going to squander it, and it will ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what, that is ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You may disagree with his position on Social Security, apparently you do, but to accuse or imply that he's acting out of racial animosity is out of bounds.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I've got it right here.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Never said that.
CARLSON: Well look at their approach to Social Security, this program is the lifeblood for millions of African American seniors, widows and children. Two out of five African American retirees rely on Social Security. So what does the Bush administration do with it? So what does it do with it?
In other words, because the black community relies on social security, the Bush administration wants to gut it. That is the implication there and it's wrong.
BEGALA: The implication is it will have a disproportionate effect. They're not motivated by race. Bush is not a racist. But he is a avaricious, rapacious greedy little (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... who doesn't want people to have a ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: He implies that he is a racist.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: All right, round ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Here's the second point. Your man Bush, this week Don Vonetta (ph), investigational reporter for the "New York Times," bombshell front page story where he found documents that proved that a Bush executive order issued by the president of the United States was written ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... was written by a big energy lobby. Why pay the guy the 400 grand a year, why don't we just remove the middle man and let every dirt bag lobbyist run the country. CARLSON: Yeah, OK I think -- I think what you're -- what you're -- I know what you're talking about is a recommendation by the American gas industry that permits to build new power plants, cleaner power plants be streamlined, that it not be like going to the DMV -- the government decide whether they'll allow it or not,
If they're going to allow it, let it go forward. This is a way that power companies can build cleaner burning factors, but the environmental lobby totally retrograde completely reactionary is against it. So what do you get? You get a dirtier environment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I say ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I say ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: No, what you get is plagiarism, the likes of which if my students at Georgetown or (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Yes, he took something someone else wrote a special interest lobby. He -- look I'm Catholic ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... in my church, papal infallibility. Bush believes in corporate infallibility.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Paul, can you just back up a little ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He never makes a mistake.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: OK, can you just back up and look at the substance of what was recommended in the Bush administration ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... also wrote and Enron ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That may be great. Now I know ...
(CROSSTALK) BEGALA: ... which makes 17 sections ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm fully aware that it's a vast conspiracy. I know that because you tell me that, I would say, just about every other ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: There are documents that prove that and I know that there's a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) et cetera, et cetera. But the point is that the recommendation that the gas industry put forward to Bush streamlined the approval process makes total sense.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... nothing wrong with special interest lobby walking into the White House writing ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Use the code words, buddy, but it doesn't change ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let's eliminate the middle man, save us 400 grand and we won't have to wince every time we see that guy on TV. Let's put the lobbyists in charge.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And on that ludicrous note, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ...
BEGALA: Just ahead we'll have fire back when everybody else gets to take a shot at the two of us including a gentleman in Florida who is fit to be tied over Tucker Carlson. I'll explain. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to the brighter new all improved CROSSFIRE. Time now for our audience at home and the audience here at George Washington University to fire back at us.
First, you at home via the e-mail. You know, the Internet is the future, Tucker.
CARLSON: Thanks, Paul.
BEGALA: In first grade ...
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) invented it.
BEGALA: ... in the first grade we were not to talk while others were speaking. Maybe CROSSFIRE should go back to first grade. From Jim in Macomb, Illinois.
CARLSON: You know I see a book here, "All I Ever Needed To Know I Learned On CROSSFIRE".
BEGALA: There we go.
CARLSON: You know what I mean?
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) inspirational.
CARLSON: And here's one. This is sort of a disappointed viewer -- it's from Brian in Springfield, Ohio. Where's the boxing? I thought there was boxing. Brian, if you want to go back stage, every night Paul gets beaten up by the make-up lady tonight.
BEGALA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Skip the make-up guy actually.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Soon will be wrestling in jell-o, though. So don't worry about that now here. Tucker, lose the bow tie, it makes your opinions and right wing ramblings less believable. Thomas Baker, West Palm Beach, Florida.
CARLSON: You know what? I have a feeling Thomas Baker wouldn't believe me no matter what I did. So I'm not even going to try and for my favorite e-mail -- this really is, I think, the greatest one we've ever gotten.
Apparently Satan, the father of all lies was not available so you hired a couple of his sons, Carville and Begala. If the founding fathers envisioned these two, the first amendment would never have -- would have had restrictions. T. Anderson, Milwaukee, and that's an excellent point, T. Anderson. In fact, Satan was not available, he's already under contract to Fox. So, we had to do the best we could.
BEGALA: And I am not the son of Satan. In fact that's my uncle.
CARLSON: Defending yourself.
BEGALA: But no, not -- you know, I told (UNINTELLIGIBLE) my mother is here tonight. Remember (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we get a shot of her, there's mom right there. Now, does that look like Satan there? That's mom -- she is wearing red.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And now to a -- she was decidedly non satanic looking member of the audience. What's your name, and what's your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From Richfield, Minnesota, and I would like to know, Tucker, why do you like the eccentric royal family member of England but not my eccentric Governor Jesse Ventura?
CARLSON: You know that's a solid question, Pat (ph). For one, the eccentric royal family of England is safely on the other side of this enormous body of water we call the Atlantic Ocean. Jesse Ventura, meanwhile, is in Minnesota, which is somewhat closer. So it's really, as an American I'm embarrassed by him. That's the real answer.
BEGALA: OK, tell us your name and your question please.
LAURA DATO: Hi my name is Laura Dato (ph). I'm from Coral Spring Harbor, New York and I was wondering that don't you think without the monarchy you take away the feeling of stability for an entire nation? I think that it clearly brings England together, and shouldn't that be something that's preserved?
BEGALA: You know, it's something for the British to decide. I probably should have said that during that segment, but no, we don't have a Queen here. In fact we don't even have a president who got elected. We hung together through September 11th just fine.
CARLSON: If I could just -- if I could just point out that that is the ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Every single night ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And every night you get applause, it's discouraging, and to you.
ANDREW HOOKS: My name is Andrew Hooks (ph), and I'm from Highland Park, New Jersey, and my question is to both of you. Why would Bush strip this second Taliban's American -- second American Taliban of his citizenship while he granted John Walker his?
CARLSON: Well, I don't think he's going to, and whether he should is another question. But I think actually this character's getting treated more than fairly moving from sunny Cuba to sunny Northern Virginia here. So I think Bush has been awfully nice to him.
BEGALA: And in fact when we try people fair and square by the American constitution, the spies that we caught when Bill Clinton was president, we put them away and we can do that just fine. We don't need to shut down a Constitution ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I don't know what you're talking about. These are guys who were captured during a battle in Afghanistan.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... nowhere near.
BEGALA: Are they less a traitor than Tim McVeigh, but he was a right-wing white guy, so he got the constitutional protection.
CARLSON: You know that is actually one of the more unfair in this entire hour long show, you wait until the last 15 seconds to say the most outrageous and appalling thing. John Walker Lindh is from -- is from Marin County. He's more suburban looking than Tim McVeigh ever was.
BEGALA: We got to go ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... suburban host from the left. I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) join us again Monday for another edition of CROSSFIRE. See you then.
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