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CNN Crossfire
Will Israel Pull Out Without Delay? Is Adam Shapiro a Hero or a Traitor? Are Americans Too Fat?
Aired April 08, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. Ont the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I meant what I said to the prime minister of Israel. I expect there to be withdrawal without delay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Israel heed the president's words and withdraw from Palestinian territories?
He came under attack with Yasser Arafat, and now he's being Attacked at home. Is Adam Shapiro a traitor?
Attention couch potatoes, is the government out to get you?
As longhorn leftie and the bow tie brawler prepare to face off, who will prevail?
All ahead on CROSSFIRE.
From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Good evening. Welcome to the second week of the new CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in downtown Washington, D.C. tonight, life, liberty and the pursuit of cheese doodles. That's how some Americans appear to interpret the constitution.
A new government report says the republic is fatter and lazier than ever. The Bush administration has pledged to take action. Should the government force us to be fit? We'll talk to Jake Steinfeld, the CEO of Body By Jake who thinks maybe it should.
We'll also speak to a Jewish peace activist who has met with Yasser Arafat. Some call him a hero, others claim he's the Jewish Taliban. But first, to the Middle East where the Israeli army announced it's beginning to withdraw troops from two West Bank towns. This comes just hours after President Bush reiterated his demand for Israel to withdraw -- quote -- "without delay", and the Secretary of State Colin Powell arrives in the region. Has he come too late? Is America losing its influence with Israel? Is Colin Powell on mission impossible?
Paul Begala, I must say Israel is not acting like a country that takes $3 billion a year in U.S. aid. In fact, it's almost an obvious thumb in the eye to this administration. The president gets up and says withdraw without delay, and they say without delay may mean today; it may mean next week.
PAUL BEGALA, HOST: It's acting like ...
CARLSON: It's an insult.
BEGALA: ... an independent state and a democracy at that. Bush has gone from total disengagement for 18 months to now. He wants to be the director of the Israel defense forces.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He's trying to ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: : ... disengagement at fault here?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I mean look, he laid out very clearly steps. He thinks both sides should take and Israel disregarded what he said, how is that not an insult to the United States? That's exactly what it is.
BEGALA: Let's move to our first guest and put the questions to him. We are very fortunate to have as our first guest, Mr. Zalman Shoval who was Israeli ambassador to the United States. Ladies and gentlemen, Zalman Shoval.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ambassador.
ZALMAN SHOVAL: Thank you.
BEGALA: Mr. Ambassador, the news of the day is that, according to Israel radio and CNN confirms that some Israeli forces are withdrawing from two towns in the West Bank. Is this the beginning of a complete pull out from the West Bank as President Bush asked your country to do without delay?
SHOVAL: Well we are going to pull out from the rest of the West Bank when We finish our mission.
BEGALA: Without delay? I mean now.
SHOVAL: Well you know like President Clinton, it means -- the question is what does delay mean? And OK, but look, we certainly want to be coordinate with the United States. We're on the same frontline. Both of us are fighting terrorism. America wouldn't stop the war against the Taliban in the middle.
The problem, which we face, is if we stop the war too early, we'll have to make this war again, because the terrorists are going to continue to blow up places, to kill people, to murder people. They will think that here Israel is being pressured. They put the -- they stop the war, they stop the campaign against terrorism, and it will just invite further terrorism in the future. But look, the relationship between Israel and this administration, just like with the previous administration, is so close that we can even have from time to time differences of opinion.
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: We are on the same side.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Wait -- hold it Mr. Ambassador, this is with all due respect, more than a difference of opinion. Our president, President Bush was very clear in his demand to Israel. Israel ignored him in what many interpret as in an insulting way. That's fine, that's Israel's right. But the question then arises, why should the U.S. taxpayers continue to send $3 billion to Israel if Israel, our closest ally in the region, insults this way? Why?
SHOVAL: Well look, do you think everything is really -- must be put in money terms?
CARLSON: No, but I ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... my question is why should U.S. taxpayers continue to pay for ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... subsidize a country that insults us.
SHOVAL: OK Tucker, how many friends does America have in the Middle East? (UNINTELLIGBLE) Saudi Arabia, which sent 16 terrorists to blow up the World Trade Center right here and the Pentagon. There is ...
CARLSON: I don't think the government of Saudi Arabia sent 16 terrorists.
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: Well ...
(CROSSTALK) SHOVAL: Saudi Arabia, I didn't say the government, OK the people. OK, business interests, whoever, which did not cooperate very well with the United States in the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban. We know, America knows, Americans know they have Israel. They have Jordan. They have Turkey. These are the real friends, not the fair weather friends. You can't rely on some of those other friends.
I won't speak -- I mean Egypt is a friend, OK, but Israel is probably, in addition to some of these others, the only country where the people will never change their attitude. They'll always support America.
So we have differences of opinion. We had them before. I had my difference of opinion with President Bush, the other one, the father, but we always settled things at the end of the day, because we are on the same side, and that's the main thing.
BEGALA: And in fact, Mr. Ambassador, as an American taxpayer, we send that money to Israel because it's in America's -- it's in America's very strong self-interest. That's why send it Tucker.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: And by the way, the civilian aid on Israel's own initiative has already been phased out, so it won't be -- so (UNINTELLIGBLE) the military aid, and we do fulfill a strategic function of supporting America.
BEGALA: Believe me, it's the best money you've ever spent. But what I'm worried about former general now Prime Minister Sharon's speech today in the Knesset where he talked about withdrawing and then setting up and the phrase he used was security zones. That does sound to me, well tell me is -- does that mean you're still going to occupy parts of the West Bank and call them security zones?
SHOVAL: Well what it really means is that you know Israelis, the man in the street says enough already, like the president said, enough is enough. We don't want these incursions every day, people coming in. Let's put up fences, let's put up security zones to prevent Palestinian or potential terrorists to come into the country.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm not sure whether that's the vast majority of innocent Palestinians. Are you going to wall off -- I mean we're not going to go back to the Berlin Wall era ...
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: Well look, if they want their own state, and they do, they should, you know, build up their own economy. We'll help them if they want to, but we will not encourage people to come into Israel and blow up people ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Troops may seal off the West Bank.
SHOVAL: It might be, unless or until there will be actual peace. I mean, you know I think President Bush said very well the other day, he said Yasser Arafat has betrayed the hope of his own people. You will only have a state if you live in peace with Israel. If they'll live in peace with Israel, it could be like Canada and the United States, but we aren't there yet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No unfortunately ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But Mr. Ambassador, you make a point that I agree with -- I think most Americans do, that America is tied to Israel both by ties of friendship but also a common sensibility. We're on the same team in some deeper sense, and it's the only democracy, and it's very westernized and civilized and decent. Hard to square and I agree with all those things, hard to square that with the behavior today at the Church of the Nativity where Israeli soldiers threw a bomb in it, set the church on fire. According to eyewitnesses, including Franciscan (ph) priests within the church, and in fact shot someone in the church. How can you defend that?
SHOVAL: I don't defend it because it isn't true.
CARLSON: Then why did the eyewitnesses ...
SHOVAL: Well ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... and priests inside the church say it's true?
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Are they lying?
SHOVAL: You know that about 65 priests, Christian priests and nuns are held -- were held hostage ...
CARLSON: They claim they're not being held ...
SHOVAL: ... in the church. No, they were held hostage by (UNINTELLIGBLE) fighters who didn't let them out. (UNINTELLIGBLE) fighters are part of Yasser Arafat's own Fatah organization ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... into that church, right?
SHOVAL: And we cannot want -- we didn't want to go in. We didn't want to create, you know, an event or crisis with the Vatican and others, so we just stayed outside. They wanted to withdraw, by the way, but Arafat told them don't. It's -- look, it's a very, very -- in Israel ...
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: ... wherever you go, you find a holy place.
CARLSON: Mr. Ambassador, OK, you're -- as I read, you're essentially saying the eyewitness testimony of the priests is not true. Let me hit you with eye witness testimony that I know is true and that's from CNN employees who say that Israeli soldiers rammed the CNN truck and fired a bullet into the windshield of it. Now they're -- in the last 10 days there have been 20 journalists shot at by Israeli soldiers. Five have been struck by bullets. One "The Boston Globe" was shot.
Now, it seems clear to all observers that Israel is targeting journalists. There is no defending that, is there?
SHOVAL: Are you sure it was Israeli soldiers firing at CNN or maybe ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGBLE) we are absolutely positive because they rammed the CNN truck.
SHOVAL: Look ...
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: I'm not going to defend that. I think that journalists in wartime are taking a terrible risk. Too many journalists are being killed, reporters, photographers.
CARLSON: But not by our side, not by an American ally. That's the difference.
SHOVAL: Well you know, there were a few people killed by collateral fire in the Gulf War. Some of them were journalists. When you take a soldier, take an Israeli soldier. They're all reservists, they're 18, 19-year old boys. They saw the other day a Palestinian ambulance, which was caught, which was stopped and had a bomb, a suicide bomber inside the car. They are suspicious. They are afraid for their own lives. I'm sure they didn't target CNN because they don't like CROSSFIRE "LARRY KING LIVE".
(CROSSTALK)
SHOVAL: You know, but ...
CARLSON: You're not explaining why they did it. But that's ...
SHOVAL: I totally -- I'm totally -- I totally don't defend that. It's a bad thing.
CARLSON: Thank you.
SHOVAL: It's a bad thing.
BEGALA: The prime minister today also called for a return to a Madrid-style peace conference.
SHOVAL: Yes.
BEGALA: That -- we have students here who are young. A decade ago, the first President Bush ...
SHOVAL: I was there.
BEGALA: Helped organize a peace conference that you attended in Madrid. Do you have any reason to believe that his son, this famously disengaged President Bush will in fact bring the world together to search for peace again the way his father and President Clinton did?
SHOVAL: Look, the Madrid conference was a good thing basically. It was aborted later on by Oslo, because the Oslo agreement was a different track, a different tack. Yes, I think getting a new conference, maybe also after the Saudi peace proposal, to get all the parties involved, sitting around the table with one precondition, that's America's precondition, not just Israel's. The violence has to stop, and I think that's the main mission that Secretary Powell is now trying to accomplish to tell the Palestinian you may get a lot, maybe earlier than you think, but violence and terrorism and murder has to stop, as the president said, you are not martyrs. You are murderers.
BEGALA: Yes and Mr. Ambassador, on that thought we do have to take a break. I want to thank you very much for joining us Ambassador Zalman Shoval ...
SHOVAL: Thank you.
BEGALA: ... from Israel.
SHOVAL: Thank you.
BEGALA: Coming up next, he's been called a traitor. When CROSSFIRE returns, we're going to talk to a 30-year old activist who just spent some very controversial base inside Yasser Arafat's headquarters.
And later, our quote of the day -- here's the first hint. This woman was a secretary and a president. Now she wants another job. We'll fill you in when we return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you'd like to join our studio audience, call 202-994-8CNN, or e-mail cnn@gwu.edu.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. What is a nice young man from Brooklyn doing in Yasser Arafat's compound in Ramallah? Even having breakfast with the besieged Palestinian leader? That's what the whole world would like to know.
Adam Shapiro is a 30-year-old activist who is a member of a Palestinian solidarity organization and his very public support for Arafat and the Palestinians caused a controversy from Bensehurst (ph) to Bethlehem. Critics are calling him the Jewish Taliban. Supporters are call being him a man of deep conviction, and we're calling him our guest tonight, a man literally caught in the CROSSFIRE.
Let's have a warm CROSSFIRE Welcome for Adam Shapiro. He joins us live from Ramallah. Mr. Shapiro, thank you for joining us.
CARLSON: Adam Shapiro, thanks for joining us. This is Tucker Carlson.
ADAM SHAPIRO, INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT: Thank you.
CARLSON: You may have to stay over there. I don't know if you know what sort of reception your -- the publicity surrounding you has received, but let me just read one snippet of it. This is from your senator, Senator Charles Schumar of New York. I'm quoting now.
"I just wish Adam Shapiro had had shown as much sympathy for the women, children and infants were who killed in Israel by suicide bombers as he shows for Yasser Arafat or more sympathy even. I think he cares for more about Palestinians dying than Israelis dying.
Is that true? Do you care more about Palestinians dying than Israelis dying?
SHAPIRO: No, I think that's a ludicrous statement, and certainly irresponsible by my senator to make. I care about everybody who dies here, all the innocent victims, and I express my sympathies for those innocent victims who died in all instances of violence, be they suicide bombings or state-supported terrorism that is being carried out now in the occupied territories. In fact just the other day I had to call a good friend of mine, an Israeli whose family was killed in the Haifa bombing and expressed my sympathies and support for his families. Unfortunately, CNN and other media outlets don't put me on TV after every suicide bombing to find out my reaction.
CARLSON: Oh, but isn't that exactly the point, Mr. Shapiro, you are being used as a propaganda tool by the Palestinian side in all of this, like it or not and you must know it.
SHAPIRO: Not really by used by the Palestinian side at all. In fact, the reason I was in the compound that night is because I got stuck there after performing a humanitarian duty volunteering on an ambulance to remove wounded from the compound, because Palestinian ambulances that did not have internationals on board were being shot at and turned around and in some cases, confiscated. Because I was a foreigner on board, I was able to negotiate with the soldiers to allow us to get access to the wounded and to get them out of the compound, critically injured people who needed immediate care.
We are a group, the International Solidarity Movement, that that is opposed to the occupation that works using non-violent methods to end the occupation, which we believe, and which many of us believe, including Israelis, the occupation is bad for both Israelis and for Palestinians. And the removal of it will result in security and peace for both peoples.
BEGALA: But Mr. Shapiro, this is Paul Begala. I praise your non-violent proselytizing, but I'm that sure you must be aware of the horrific violence that the suicide bombers have been causing, and you are no doubt aware that in the very compound in which you sat, there have been documents discovered proving the Palestinian Authority, in fact, is paying for the supplies, the explosives, the deadly weaponry that is being used to target innocent children in Israel. Surely you've got to speak out against that as well.
SHAPIRO: I've condemned the suicide bombings and I've condemned the state-supported violence that we see here in the Palestinian territories. I condemn all of ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: I'm sorry to interrupt you ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: You slide right off of that ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... back on to -- on to the state of Israel. Did d you raise with Mr. Arafat the blood that is on his hands, the documented proof we now have ...
SHAPIRO: Excuse me, but I was ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... terrorism.
SHAPIRO: ... I was about to finish answering that question, which was that I was in that compound, again, on a humanitarian mission, and not in any way of support of President Arafat or what the Palestinian Authority does or doesn't do. We were there to remove the wounded. In fact our mission, the International Solidarity Movement, is to work with the Palestinian people, to help them struggle for freedom, and that includes working with Israeli people who work for this. We do not have any statement of support for the Palestinian authority, for any of its actions or what it does or doesn't do. It's -- we are -- we are working with the people. My mission there was humanitarian, to try and get the injured who were inside out for a hospital and that's what we did.
CARLSON: OK, now Mr. Shapiro, you said you'd like to see Israel withdraw from the occupied territories. Presumably you'd also like to see a Palestinian state. If and when there is a Palestinian state, I wonder how you think you'd fare in it, if you were to move to the Palestinian state. Do you think you'd have all the rights of any citizen in a Palestinian state or do you think you'd be treated as a second-class citizen?
SHAPIRO: If I chose to -- tried to become a citizen of that state, I mean that would determine -- that would be dependent on the rules and regulations of becoming a citizen. I will say this, I have lived in Ramallah now for six months, and I have come here not as an occupier, but as an equal to the people who are around me, and I am treated as an equal. I think the problem people may have is when they come here as occupiers, either as settlers or as soldiers. They may face, you know, what is the anger of a people who are being oppressed. I would expect that anywhere. If you come as an equal, you Should be treated as an equal.
BEGALA: Well Mr. Shapiro, what about the equals who themselves are Palestinians? I'm talking about the many, many Palestinians who have been murdered for the so-called crime of collaborating with Israel, without a trial, without evidence, without anything? We have Palestinians, not occupiers, as you call the Israelis, being murdered by other Palestinians. Is your group taking steps to try to stop that kind of Palestinian on Palestinian murder?
SHAPIRO: We speak out against all kinds of violence. The issue of collaborators is certainly a troublesome one. And we believe that e people should face a trial and should have a hearing. But this is a matter up to the Palestinian authority. Our group is concerned about ending the occupation. In Israel also, there are -- and in every country, there are cases of murder, you know Prime Minister Rabin (ph) was assassinated by a group of people who felt that he was being a traitor to the Jewish people and he was killed.
This happens in every society, and it needs be spoken out against, and here in the Palestinian territories, there are people who speak out against it. Civil society is speaking out against it and is trying to work to ensure that there are trials ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Can you give me ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Give me the name of ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Give me the name of one Palestinian who has spoken out against the murder of these alleged so-called collaborators.
SHAPIRO: I mean I would prefer not to name names on your -- on your show, but I can tell you the Palestinian Center for Human Rights and other -- and other Palestinian human rights groups have spoken out against this and have issued reports about this.
CARLSON: OK, Adam Shapiro, from Ramallah, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it. Good luck.
Coming up on CROSSFIRE, another example of airport security gone awry. Why one passenger literally became sick over it.
Plus our quote of the day, here's hint number two, it comes from a woman who says she's no foreigner to her southern roots. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: You've read the papers, watched the news, surfed the Internet, but you're not fully informed until you've seen tonight's CROSSFIRE news alert.
In airline security news, 14-year-old Eliot Goscow (ph) says he became ill after screeners at the Aspen Colorado Airport made him drink from a bottle he was attempting to bring on board. The regulations require passengers to prove that liquids they're carrying are not dangerous. As it turns out Eliot Goscow's (ph) liquid was dangerous, at least to his stomach. It was untreated creek water he was bringing home for a science project. Memo to airline travelers, leave those urine samples at home.
BEGALA: I'm going to have to use that excuse next time I get sick from something I drank out of a bottle.
But in other news, "The Raleigh News and Observer" (ph) reports that North Carolina Senator Jesse Helms has signed a deal with Random House to write his memoirs. Scholars will no doubt benefit from the reflections of a man who was wrong on every major issue for 40 years. Helms' aides say the proceeds from the book will be donated to the non-profit Jesse Helms Center where they apparently have more experience burning than publishing them.
CARLSON: You just (UNINTELLIGBLE) on Amazon by the way. And in pornography news, "Penthouse" Magazine may be going out of business. Experts say it's only a matter of time before the magazine folds or is sold.
"Penthouse" it appears is unable to compete with less expensive online porn and now faces a mountain of debt. The magazine's publisher, Bob Guccioni, has been forced to take drastic measures putting his Manhattan apartment and art collection up for sale. Said Guccioni -- quote -- "let's face it, "Penthouse" is losing its shirt. Actually Guccioni didn't say that, but he should have.
BEGALA: And if he had, it would have been our quote of the day, but it was not. So time now for our real quote of the day, and for that we go back to the Tar Heel state. We told you that this woman was famous, had been a secretary and a president of sorts, yes, well, she was actually the labor secretary and the transportation secretary, -- the enunciation press secretary as well. And was president of The American Red Cross. She's lived here in Washington for about the last oh, say 30 years, and the quote comes from none other than Elizabeth Dole, now a candidate for the United States senate from North Carolina.
Mrs. Dole is understandably sensitive to comments she might be a carpet bagger, and that she like another famous woman who left Washington to run for the Senate is only moving there to run. Dole says -- quote -- "I don't think they'd bring in a foreigner. It's different because -- it's different from Hillary because she had never lived in the state. This is my home."
Tucker, another way it's different is Hillary actually won.
CARLSON: Look, look, well, Paul, first of all, let's be honest -- and I think you can be honest here. Hillary won New York State. Satan could have won on the democratic line in New York State. Hillary won. I mean that's the evidence. North Carolina is a politically divided state. One senator is a Democrat, one a Republican, winning that state, and I think she's going to win, will be impressive.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: But the second point I would make, they're both -- it's all kind of phony, OK, but in the contest of phonies, Hillary wins. She's more deeply phony.
BEGALA: Call her senator, no -- and she got -- Mrs. Dole got fewer votes than Gary Bauer. How is she going to do against somebody from her own ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Gary Bauer, that was in Iowa ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Just ahead on our CNN news alert, new trouble in an old hot spot. We'll see what's happening in good old Kosovo. And chew on this, should the government be ordering you off the couch and into the gym? We'll weigh in -- get in -- weigh in on that a little later on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Thanks, Carol. Paul Begala, Iraq cuts off oil. Gas prices up 25 cents in the last month. Family of five wants to go to Disneyland this summer, what do Democrats have to say to them? Go solar. That's their only answer. We ought to drill in Anwar right away.
BEGALA: Drill in Anwar right away, we won't get any oil here for years and years and years.
CARLSON: Yes, we will. There's oil. That's why we want to drill there.
BEGALA: My father spent 40 years in that business. By the way, it's his birthday. Happy birthday, dad. He...
CARLSON: Well, that's unfair.
BEGALA: He spent 40 years in that business. It takes a long time turning to the right to get the oil out. We can save oil right now by making corporate America...
CARLSON: By going solar. Wind...
BEGALA: ...corporate fuel efficiency, if we passed the Democratic measure...
CARLSON: Mm-hmm, yes, fuel efficiency.
BEGALA: ...to make cars more fuel efficient we wouldn't need to drill in Anwar.
CARLSON: That's going to be (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BEGALA: We wouldn't need Saddam Hussein.
(RINGING BELL)
CARLSON: Good luck, Paul. That's a winner.
OK, later on round six, we'll drop the gloves and go bare knuckles. But next, should big brother be forcing you to slim down? It's a weighty debate and a fun fest. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. Are we a nation of couch potatoes? A new government study says 7 in 10 adults don't exercise regularly. Even worse, according to the feds, almost 40 percent of the Americans don't do it at all.
Some officials, like Tommy Thompson, took those words to heart yesterday, hitting the pavement on a 10-mile run. Tonight, we're going to ask should the government get involved in your exercise plan?
Now, we know, people say anyway that obesity leads to all sorts of problems. Doesn't the government have an obligation to keep us healthy? That's the question we're going to pose tonight.
Joining us to bat it around is Jake Steinfeld, CEO of Body by Jake Enterprises. And from the Cato Institute, Steven Millloy.
BEGALA: First, we'll get our anti-exercise guys a little assistance there.
JAKE STEINFELD, CEO, BODY BY JAKE: It's a little heavy for you.
CARLSON: Yes, it's a little heavy. You know, Jake, I'll take trinkets from anybody.
STEVEN MILLOY: This is only 21 grams. You can probably lift those.
CARLSON: I don't even know what that means.
BEGALA: That's your choice, right? That's the choice America faces. Fit or fat? CARLSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) be happier. But actually, that leads to my question, Jake.
STEINFELD: Everything in moderation.
CARLSON: Everything? But how about not? What if, after a long day, I feel like getting a quart of malt liquor and sitting on the couch all weekend and watching television? Why is that the business of the federal government?
STEINFELD: Well, I think first and foremost, exercise is a very boring thing. And that's the reason why most Americans don't exercise. The idea being though is you can make it fun. It's a matter of making it a part of your lifestyle is really what the name of the game is.
There's a million exercise gurus out there. And he problem is with all these exercise gurus, there are 7,000 different messages. The thing I like so much, that I think can work with the government, is the government working hand in hand with the private sector, as we've done with our foundation.
CARLSON: But wait...
STEINFELD: but you know what, though? Because with the government doing it, and not really having their whole hand in it, but working alongside. For instance, we have a great foundation where we put fitness centers in inner middle schools around the country.
CARLSON: But holy smokes, Jake, there's a war going on. There are people, you know -- no, but truly...
(CROSSTALK)
STEINFELD: You know what, wait, though. I'll tell you one thing though. We live in a great nation. Everyone looks at the United States as a very strong nation. This nation is built because of our people. And our people need to be strong as well, not just mentally, but physically.
CARLSON: But is it their business what I do on the weekends is the question. Why is it the federal government's business what I do?
STEINFELD: I think most people, if you asked the studio audience, a great bunch of people here, if they would like to feel better about themselves, be healthy, be in shape, I think they would all raise their hand and say, yes, right?
BEGALA: Steven Milloy, let me bring you in here. First off, you're a perfectly fit young man yourself, so I guess you probably don't need this lecture, but...
MILLOY: I'm older than I look.
BEGALA: Our president, a man...
MILLOY: Sit up straight.
BEGALA: ...as a man you know politically, who I don't like at all, has set a terrific example for us. We praise George W. Bush. He runs. I'm a runner. He runs three miles a day at 7:15 a clip. That is a moving guy.
MILLOY: Right.
BEGALA: And you may not know this, CNN has learned, this is true, that Bush has, at taxpayer's expense, hired a personal trainer to coach him in the White House to keep him in shape. And that trainer also works with senior White House aides.
I say great. I am thrilled. The guy's under a lot of stress. And he -- so is his staff. Let me show you the pictures of some of the staff. Here are the folks who are working with the personal trainer. Take a look at them. And I think you know these. There they are. There's Karen Hughes, Mary Matalin, former host of the show, and Condolezza Rice. These are three women who do work out at the White House. They're helping run our country. And look like they're fit to run it.
Now let me draw the contrast. This happens to be the boys side of the Bush -- there they are. Here's my friend Karl Rove, Larry Lindsey, Dick Cheney. Now who do you want running the country?
(CROSS TALK)
STEINFELD: Well, you now, let's just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) getting started there. Let's just say it's a work in progress.
BEGALA: Don't we all have a stake in America.
MILLOY: I think exercise is great. I work out every day. I love it, I'm in good shape. And I plan to stay that way. And I think everybody should, but you know, it's my personal choice. I don't think we should mandate it publicly. I don't think the federal government should get involved in forcing people to exercise or making people feel guilty if they don't.
STEINFELD: I don't think it's about forcing.
(CROSS TALK)
STEINFELD: I think that if you can take, you know what though, if you can take what we have now, which we call the President's Council on Physical Fitness, which really isn't doing much these days...
MILLOY: It's a failure.
STEINFELD: And it isn't abuot it's a failure. It just hasn't been paid attention to. And there's a way, though, that you can combine both the government and the private sector. Now I'm going to go back to our foundation because it's working. We've put now 25 of these don't quit fitness centers in inner city middle schools around the country.
If you look at 80 percent of the schools in our country today don't offer daily physical education classes. The obesity rate in this country is out, reading in the papers. 75 percent of obese teens stay obese into adulthood. But the mindset being is we need a single voice. And if the voice, if there's a place that people can go to.
MILLOY: So many fitness crazes in this country in the '70s and the '80s and now. The fitness industry is booming. And you know, the message is not catching on.
STEINFELD: Because well, that's a whole other story, because I agree.
MILLOY: The government's efforts failed.
STEINFELD: I agree. I think that there needs to be watched dogs from the FTC, looking at some of the abdominal products out there.
MILLOY: We have PE in schools. It's not working.
STEINFELD: With those zappers that you can stick on the top of your head.
MILLOY: If the federal government does so little well, why do you want them to do more worse?
BEGALA: Well, one of the things the federal government does very well is pay the bills. Right? We have Medicare and we have Medicaid. And they are paying for the health habits of all Americans, including for example, oh say, the vice president of the United States, who has had four heart attacks, two heart surgeries, cancer, gout. He almost died eating a pomengranate. Wouldn't it have been better to spend $10 and get him a Body by Jake video, we wouldn't have to put $200,000 grand into surgery.
STEINFELD: Wait, hang on a second. What do I owe you for that? Hang on a second. Dial 1-800...
MILLOY: I mean, you guys want publicly financed healthcare. Then you complain when you have to pay for the healthcare of people. Well you know, this, you know, Dick Cheney's what you're going to have to pay for.
STEINFELD: You know what? I think though that there is a way, and now I don't know if this is true or not, it's only what I've read about the IRS giving you a tax break if one, if somebody, you know...
MILLOY: Oh, come on.
STEINFELD: ...puts themself forward and says wait a second...
MILLOY: Why shouldn't I get a writeoff for my running shoes?
STEINFELD: ...(UNINTELLIGIBLE)? You know what though? Maybe that's something that could be justified to happen. MILLOY: If you guys are worried about taxes, we should just lower them. I mean, this is ridiculous. It's got not nothing to do with fitness.
(CROSS TALK)
CARLSON: Hold on. Let me ask you this question. You got to admit...
STEINFELD: This is something where, you know what, it's about -- not just about building a body, but about...
CARLSON: I'm afraid, Paul. I'm going to have to stop the -- as inspired as I'm getting, I want to ask you a question. Now you're a trainer.
STEINFELD: Tucker's getting (UNINTELLGIBLE).
CARLSON: You know -- well Paul lowered the bar. And I want to join him there, because you know that there are people, who no matter how much exercise they do, no matter how many pairs of dolphin running shorts they get, no matter how laps around the reflecting pool they do, it doesn't seem to do them any good. And I offer as Exhibit A, the former president, who we saw dancing all around in his shorts.
(CROSS TALK)
STEINFELD: But does that say that you should not do anything?
CARLSON: No, it doesn't say that you shouldn't do anything, but it says that there's a certain yuppie sensibility in all of this, that says look, unless you're out there lifting weights, unless you have washboard abs? What if you don't want washboard abs? What if you enjoy being a little bit overweight?
STEINFELD: We don't need washboard abs.
CARLSON: Why lecture people?
STEINFELD: There's nothing wrong about that at all. It's about feeling good about yourself and having good self-esteem and having the pride in yourself and smile...
CARLSON: But wait, what if I feel good about myself on the couch drinking beer?
STEINFELD: But you know what, though? I guarantee you I've been around the country enough times now and visited with enough people, when I open this comment up by saying how many people would rather say good or bad, they just don't know how to get started.
CARLSON: Well, maybe they do feel good, though. See, that's the arrogant part of this. You don't feel good...
STEINFELD: It isn't about being arrogant. But when you talk to them personally, if get on the phone and say you're feeling good, hey I'm feeling great. Or you know what? The e-mails that we get, I could have brought 10,000 of them. How do I get started, Jake? I feel terrible, I have no energy, I have no self-esteem, I have no confidence. And now it's being passed down to my kids.
CARLSON: Are you sure you're not a shrink? You sound like a shrink.
(CROSS TALK)
BEGALA: You raised a moment ago. Why should we make something like fitness programs or weight loss programs tax deductible? You know, as you know, everything is tax deductible practically. Contact lenses, laundry and dry cleaning service, hearing aids, contraceptives. Why can't we just make health and fitness deductible?
(CROSS TALK)
STEINFELD: No, if that incentivises the American public to want to get healthy, and to want to get in shape, maybe that's what it takes.
(CROSS TALK)
MILLOY: It's going to incentivize fraud. I mean, everyone's going to deduct their tennis shoes, their you know, what, T-shirts. It's crazy.
STEINFELD: But there's got to be some sense of honesty and integrity.
(CROSS TALK)
CARLSON: Have you been questioned before, Jake? The federal government...
STEINFELD: Actually, I live in LA, man. I feel very -- it's great being here.
CARLSON: Do you feel good about yourself?
STEINFELD: These folks look great. It's a great set, man. Life is good, boys, you know?
(CROSS TALK)
STEINFELD: Life is good.
CARLSON: We're going to have to end it right there. Jake, thank you very much. Steven, thank you. And we feel good here.
Still to come on CROSSFIRE, you get a chance to fire back with your comments. And next, speaking of feeling good, Paul and I step into the ring for round six. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: It's CROSSFIRE, round six. No guests, two hosts, two issues, and once again, too little time. I think I'll go first.
Now Paul.
BEGALA: Yes, Tucker?
CARLSON: Live by the polls, die by the polls, I have a new favorite poll, it comes from Gallup. It is retrospective job approval ratings of presidents. It came out last month. Here is it. JFK, 83%; Ronald Reagan, 73%; GHW Bush, 69%; Gerald Ford, 60%; Jimmy Carter, very generous 60%; Bill Clinton 51%, right over Johnson 39%; and nixon 34%.
Now the polls, of course, were the way the Clinton people, including you justified the vulgar tragedy that unfolded here in Washington a couple of years ago. You always said, "Well, look, the people support us. But now they don't."
BEGALA: The vulgar tragedy is how this man, Bill Clinton, was trashed by the right-wing knuckle dragging thugs of cable television and elsewhere, ever since he set first on Washington.
CARLSON: I love this.
BEGALA: But I'll make you a deal. Let's put it to the test. Let's repeal the 22nd Amendment, let my guy run for a third term. He'll beat George Bush like a red-headed stepchild. He'll beat him like a bad piece of meat. He'll whip him like a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
CARLSON: You know what I love about that? That's exactly the argument you've always made. BEGALA: Yes.
CARLSON: Let's subvert the Constitution for the sake of Bill Clinton. But you know what?
BEGALA: Well, that's called democracy.
CARLSON: But you know what?
BEGALA: That's what the people decide, instead of the elite.
CARLSON: No, I love that. See but you know, I wonder as I read this, 51%, that's grotesque. Who could those people be? Well, then our producers here on CROSSFIRE came across a quote from something called buzzflash.com, don't think I'll be reading it soon, but you did an interview with them.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
CARLSON: And here's the quote that you gave. I'm quoting now. "It turns out we, Clinton, were the most ethical administration in history."
BEGALA: Absolutely. How many senior Reagan aids went to prison? 30. How many senior Clinton aids? 1.
CARLSON: You've got the stats right on the tip of your fingers, but I have to say...
BEGALA: The chief of staff of the Department of Agriculture.
CARLSON: Oh, is that right?
BEGALA: No, let me defend my colleagues. This is important.
CARLSON: Because they weren't as clever as you.
BEGALA: They were hounded. The Clinton administration was hounded by seven different special prosecutors, dozens of right wing committees.
CARLSON: That's exactly right.
BEGALA: One guy.
CARLSON: Because they were so ethical. Why?
BEGALA: One guy.
CARLSON: Because they were so darn ethical, they got hounded. Those are the wages of ethicalness, isn't it?
BEGALA: They were found innocent on every -- who -- tell me...
CARLSON: Because they were so darn ethical, all these independent councils. I don't know, offended by their ethicalness, came out and investigated them. I love this. What an argument.
BEGALA: Tell me one Clinton administration official who was convicted of wrongdoing while in office? Except for the chief of staff...
CARLSON: I can give you a list of who should have been.
BEGALA: Should have been?
CARLSON: Should have been, absolutely...
BEGALA: So all of these...
CARLSON: ...should have been before the whole process was short- circuited.
BEGALA: All of these insane special counsels, all of this independent counsel, all of these congressional...
CARLSON: It's all a conspiracy, every part of it. But you know what, the American people are beginning to reject that argument after all these many years.
BEGALA: You just can't stand the fact that people are found innocent.
CARLSON: Only 51% still buy it. And I wonder 10 years from now, how many will buy it then. I noticed Lyndon Johnson, once a hero in his own time, is now down to 39%. I bet a decade from now, he'll be down to 29, along with Bill Clinton. And that'll be a happy day in my life. And we'll do a special show on CROSSFIRE about that Gallup poll when it comes out. I literally can't wait.
BEGALA: You still won't put it to a vote. Will you? Will you join me in calling me for repeal. What are you scared of?
CARLSON: No, because actually...
BEGALA: What are you scared of?
CARLSON: Because I believed in the Constitution, as I did then, I do now. And I'm amazed...
BEGALA: Oh, you who defended that election in Florida? Oh?
CARLSON: I'm amazed...
BEGALA: You who said it was okay to Chief Justice Renquist? (UNINTELLGIBLE)?
CARLSON: Chief Justice Renquist.
BEGALA: No, but -- I believe. I'm stepping back for the thunderbolt here.
CARLSON: But there is a certain irony. You must admit, Paul.
BEGALA: I believe in the Constitution.
CARLSON: That a president who did polling literally on where to take a vacation, that is true as you know, because you were there. He took a poll to find out where to go on vacation, that it's the very polls so loved that bury him in the end. 51%. And I want to bet you right here on the air on live television, what do you think it'll be next year? It'll be under 50%. And I bet you a $100.
BEGALA: Put him on the ballot. Let's put him on the ballot. What are afraid of?
CARLSON: Put him on the ballot.
BEGALA: Absolutely.
CARLSON: That is the last...
BEGALA: What are you afraid of?
CARLSON: Because it's against the Constitution. That's why.
BEGALA: Only recently.
CARLSON: Only recently. Oh, it's a little inconvenience of a Constitutional amendment. Let's just get rid of it. You know why? Because it stands in the way of Clinton's ego. Let's just get rid of it. Ah, but it's true.
BEGALA: The right-wing troops, Mr. Carlson...
CARLSON: That would be me.
BEGALA: You and your predecessors, this is before you were born, put that into the Constitution, so we'd have no...
CARLSON: Oh, the amendment is a conspiracy, too.
BEGALA: Would you let me finish?
CARLSON: It gets bigger every day. I wish I'd known that earlier.
BEGALA: The 22nd amendment was put in the Constitution by Republicans so there would be no more FDRS. I think FDR was a hell of a good president.
CARLSON: Did "The American Spectator" do it?
BEGALA: I think Bill Clinton was a great president. And I'd like to see him have a third term.
CARLSON: I think (UNINTELLIGIBLE), didn't he?
BEGALA: And I think you're worried that Clinton's going to come back. You just can't stand.
CARLSON: I think I'm deeply amused, but we've got to go to a break. More to come.
Our free for all, when our audience gets to fire back at us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University here in Washington, this is when you, our audience, get the chance to fire back at us.
First, we go to e-mail. First e-mail comes from Michael Cease. He writes, "Adam Shapiro is a courageous man," referring to a guest we had earlier tonight. "There should be more people like him working for peace."
Next e-mail on the same subject. Doreen Greenberg of New Jersey writes, "Courage is not marching into Arafat's compound. Courage is sitting at a cafe in Jerusalem."
BEGALA: Amen. Our third e-mail from Elise Bilodeau in Oceanside, California. "You are the talk of my senior citizen exercise class. We're a mixed batch of liberals and conservatives. And we love you all." Well Elise, we love you too, babe.
CARLSON: You are the Richard Simmons of talk shows. I am so impressed.
BEGALA: No, Body by Jake.
CARLSON: Now from Maggie Williams, I don't know the Maggie Williams, from Los Angeles, California. "It is so great to hear someone speak proudly and unapologetically about Bill Clinton, also about Democratic ideas. I thought everyone had died or something. I don't feel like I've lost touch after all. Thanks again and keep up the good work."
Maggie, actually, no one's died, it's the ideas have died. They're old and they're beginning to smell.
BEGALA: Oh, it's the one-liners that have died. Thank you, Maggie.
CARLSON: It's true though, as you know.
BEGALA: That is very nice of you. And this is my favorite e- mail of all time. "Your show is so dumb, if I was watching on an airplane, I'd get up and walk out." Gene Watson.
CARLSON: Good luck, Gene. I'm not sure I want to fly with a hot tempered air passenger like Gene.
BEGALA: Gene is so dumb, he might actually do that. So Gene, boy voyage. Happy trails.
CARLSON: Good luck, Gene. Now, we have a question from the audience. Yes, sir, what's your name?
JONATHAN MCDANIEL: My name is Jonathan Mcdaniel. And I'm from Glendale, Arizona. First a little comment, George Bush is from Texas. He would wail on Clinton. My question is...
BEGALA: I'm from Texas, too. I couldn't beat Clinton. What does that mean?
MCDANIEL: My question is that with the way that President Bush has given President Sharon pretty much an ultimatum of getting out of Palestine and the West Bank and what not, how do you think that that contradicts with how Secretary of State Powell has pretty much been trying to peacefully negotiate with the Palestinians and Arafat right now?
CARLSON: Well, I mean, from what I can tell, President Bush hasn't delivered an ultimatum to Sharon, hasn't said leave or leave. He simply said leave. So it's been all carrot and no stick, as befits our relationship with Israel, which is essentially very close allies.
BEGALA: You know, it's been wholly empty. He began by saying I was going to disengage. Now he wants to micromanage the timing of the Israeli defense forces. And I was struck watching our president with the British prime minister. Bush is in so over his head, he looked like mini me standing next to Shaquille O'Neal. He has no clue what he is doing. CARLSON: That is so deeply unfair. I wish we had time for me to just beat you about the head and shoulder, but we have another question. Yes, sir, your name?
SEAN STORY: Hi, Sean Story from Fairfax, Virginia. It seems that most of the airport security is just window dressing. Do you guys think that the government just wasting our money? And do you think they have any other long-term plans to make us safe?
CARLSON: Well let me put it this way. Paul Begala routinely gets on airplanes without being stopped. So I think almost by definition.
BEGALA: You know, actually, we worked hard on this in the Clinton White House. There's a thing called the Gore Commission, which recommended a new way to screen passengers, which the Republican Congress did not pass. It would have made things much, much tighter, much, much tougher. We still don't have...
CARLSON: I'm many (UNINTELLIGIBLE) by the insertion of partisan politics into something as sacred as airport security.
BEGALA: I worked on this.
CARLSON: I know you did.
BEGALA: I have to know something about it.
CARLSON: You did a great deal of good. Congratulations.
BEGALA: You have the official Republican Congress...
CARLSON: And question. Yes, your name?
POPPY MYER: Hi, Poppy Myer from Salem, Oregon. I want to know, is Elizabeth Dole making a huge mistake by excluding her husband from her campaign?
BEGALA: Yes, he's terrific. I know he's a Republican and I'm a Democrat, but he's terrific. And she ought to have him, just let him talk and say I'm going to serve if he wins.
CARLSON: But there are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ads to fill, so life moves on.
BEGALA: Wonderful. From the left, I am Paul Begala. Good-night from CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: Adn from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE. See you then.
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