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CNN Crossfire

Should Catholic Church Change Position on Celibacy?; Why is it Bush Versus Gore All Over Again?

Aired April 22, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE, tonight, when U.S. cardinals meet this week at the Vatican, should their agenda include changing the church's position on celibacy and women priests? What on earth on this earth day, why is it Bush versus Gore all over again? Who will wear the crown after the prince of darkness and the lone star lefty duke it out? This is CROSSFIRE.

From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Robert Novak.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Good evening, and welcome to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in downtown Washington, D.C. On this Earth Day, the sharpest clash between President Bush and Al Gore since the presidential election recount.

Gore accuses Bush of sabotaging environmental protection. The president says he's ignoring his former opponent's rhetoric and pushing ahead with policies he says will reduce air pollution and stop acid rain. We'll bring our guests into the Crossfire to debate Earth Day wars, but first, crisis in the Roman Catholic Church.

We're looking at a live shot from the Vatican. Just hours from now, American cardinals will begin the first of two extraordinary meetings on the sexual abuse scandal in the American church. Twelve American cardinals are attending the sessions. Pope John Paul II summoned the cardinals and is expected to meet with them.

With our guests in the Crossfire, we'll debate calls for married and female priests. Is it time to allow these radical changes? Or is this another attempt by liberals to undermine the authority of the church? Wasn't this a predictable outcome of these scandals, Paul, that the people who don't like the Roman Catholic hierarchy may have people of faith, but they don't like the church very much, want to use this as a chance to remodel it?

PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: I think it's a shame when people suggest that many of us Catholics who love the church -- I was raised in the church, I am faithful to the church, I go to St. Luke's every Sunday, my first born son of four is named John Paul and I've had the pleasure to meet the pope twice. So I don't like when people say, because I disagree, with certain seditions... NOVAK: Did I say it was you?

BEGALA: Well, you are spreading this around. I strongly support allowing priests to marry. That's because I love the church. Not because I don't. So let's all begin with the notion that all of us are Catholics in good faith here...

NOVAK: OK, let's go to our guests. Please welcome Linda Pieczynski of the National Catholic Church Reform Group. She's in Chicago. And in Pittsburgh, Tom Kane, author of the book, "Priests Are People, Too."

BEGALA: Mr. Kane, welcome, and Ms. Pieczynski. Thank you very much both for joining us. Mr. Kane, let me begin with you. Just to set the stage, let me read to you a comment from the holy father, his holiness John Paul II, who said, he was quoted in "The New York Times" today, saying, "it is of the utmost importance, that openness, honesty and transparency be the hallmark of everything that the church does." Why then are so many conservatives not open to, say, married priests?

TOM KANE, AUTHOR, "PRIESTS ARE PEOPLE TOO": It's a good question, Paul. I have to tell you, I'm not a theologian. I wrote a book on the priesthood to really capture the human side of the priesthood, but I can say this; in my research for "Priests Are People Too" I spoke to hundreds of priests across this country, I contacted almost 3,000 priests. I can tell you by and large I can count on one hand the amount of priests who wish that they were married.

BEGALA: Well, there are at least by one count 50 American priests who are in fact married, they're former Episcopalian priests who moved to the Catholic church. This was by the way, because of a pastoral provision that John Paul II issued in 1980. Is the church worse off because we have scores of married priests today?

KANE: I can't answer that. It's a difficult question to answer.

BEGALA: I think we're better off. I think the pope was right to allow some married priests. I think he should allow more.

KANE: Again, my research by and large says clearly otherwise. If priests could be married and celibacy was removed, why were Protestant seminaries and rabbinical students at an all-time low. I don't really think that's the issue here, Paul. I think that we need to keep with the history of the church. The church has been in existence for 2,000 years. I understand the call to action, other groups are trying to get this change, and I just think it's simply wrong.

NOVAK: Linda Pieczynski in Chicago, I'd like you to listen to something that was said on CNN's LATE EDITION yesterday by Father Steve Rosette. He is a psychologist and he's been a consultant to the council of bishop's on this question of sexual abuse. And he said -- I really like what he said, because it's something I've been saying on this program for the last two weeks. Let's listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FATHER STEVE ROSETTI, CATHOLIC PRIEST: People are using this issue to bring out their own agenda. For example, celibacy, homosexuality, women's ordination, church's teaching on sexuality, those are all important issues, but they're really not related to the issue of child sexual abuse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Isn't that a fact that these are important issues, but what this crisis is about is sexual -- is child abuse, sexually, and particularly the question of female ordination has absolutely nothing to do with that, does it?

LINDA PIECZYNSKI, CALL TO ACTION: That's where I think you're wrong, because this crisis is not about child sexual abuse alone. This crisis is about the secrecy and the cover-up that was done by the celibate bishops who created future -- more victims by not taking steps to remove these priests.

Therefore, when you talk about a solution to the crisis, child abuse exists in every profession. Nobody is blaming the priesthood as causing it or celibacy is causing it, but what we are saying is that we have to examine how this crisis came about, where well-meaning, supposedly holy men allowed children to be put at risk. And when you look at that you have to look at the clerical culture that allowed this type of thing to happen, and that -- in that respect, we need to look at who are priests, who are allowed to be priests, who are excluded from the priesthood.

And you know, Pope Paul VI's own pontifical commission in 1976 examined the issue as to whether there was any scriptural prohibition for a women priesthood. And the theologians that the pope himself appointed said there was no restriction on a scriptural to prevent women from becoming priests.

NOVAK: Now we're getting to the point, because we are really going into a blind alley because there are many theologians. I'm not a theologian, I don't think you are either. There are many theologians who says there is a scriptural prohibition against women being ordained, and the theologian who is determined and is absolutely certain there was a scriptural prohibition happens to be Pope John Paul.

PIECZYNSKI: Pope John Paul, I don't expect him to change his attitude. He was raised at a different time. But what the prominent theologians are telling me is that the reason that the church prohibits women priests is because we can't represent Christ.

The problem is that yes, Jesus was male, but the risen Christ, the body of Christ is represented by all of us, male and female, single and married. St. Paul says that, that all of us are the body of Christ. So to say women can't represent Christ is just bad theology. The real reason that women were excluded from the priesthood was because for a long time women were viewed in the church history as second class citizens. St. Thomas Aquinas called us misbegotten males. You don't hear those kinds of arguments being raised anymore because they're ludicrous. This is the last argument that is being raised against female priesthood. And it's just not sound theology. And the Catholic Theological Association has called for wide-ranging discussion on this issue.

BEGALA: Mr. Kane, let me come back to -- you used a phrase before when we were talking about whether priests should marry, you talked about the history of the church. Well, of course the church is 20 centuries old, and for the majority of its history, priest were if fact, allowed to be married.

As we discussed before, American priests, many of them are married and in the eastern rite where they are no less Catholics than you or I, they marry, so actually the church's history, the balance of it, the majority of the church's history is that priests could be married. There's nothing doctrinal or dogmatic that says priests can't marry.

KANE: That's exactly correct, Paul, and again, I have to go back to what Bob said, I think he nailed it on the head, you know. It's important to realize that when I went through the country long before this survey -- long before this priest scandal ever came to light, I asked priests specifically about celibacy, in certain instances about ordination of women, I can tell you on one hand the amount of priests, and I know that call to action, I know what they're looking to have married priests and to lift the celibacy requirement and get women to be ordained priests.

I can tell you that out of every single state in this country, every priest that I spoke with, and they had nothing to lose by telling me anything else, because this was done, the research about a year and a half ago, although they have difficulties at time with living a celibate lifestyle, they understand completely the reason for it and they agree with it.

To take that a step further, all of these priests echoed the same sentiment that if, as I said before, that to lift the ban on celibacy and to the requirement of celibacy and allow women to be ordained, they allow that in the Protestant seminaries and the rabbinical seminaries. Why are those seminaries at an all-time low. And if that was the issue, let's face facts -- in the 1940s, 1950s and '60s, seminaries were at an all-time high in their vocations. I don't think by ordination of women we're going to really see a big boost in vocations to the priesthood.

BEGALA: It's interesting and I think it's laudable that you have surveyed priests and sought out their comment, and I certainly am in no position to gainsay your position that most American priests would rather remain celibate. I don't think anybody is mandating an end to it, that is, nobody would mandate marriage on the part of priests, but while we're talking about opinions and surveys, "The New York Times" and CBS surveyed all Americans, and I took a look at the Catholics.

Our fellow Catholics were surveyed this weekend, and they were asked a variety of questions. Let me tell you about the question of whether priests should be allowed to marry. The strong overwhelming position by 71 to 20 American Catholics believed that priests ought to be able to marry if they choose. Now, clearly -- I mean, certainly you believe the holy spirit moves throughout entire body of Christ and not just the priest and the hierarchy, do you?

KANE: I do, Paul, that's a great example. That's why I wrote the book, "Priests are People Too," because I really wanted to show Catholics and non-Catholics alike exactly what a priest does all day, and through their stories, through humor, through their words, those stories and the life of a Catholic priest really comes out in this book.

And I think that is the big misnomer, and with all due respect to my fellow Catholics, I truly don't think they understand the life of a Catholic priest. I truly don't think they understand why a priest chooses to live a celibate life. Listen, they know this requirement going into this thing. This is not something new that's been around for the last 25 years. So I think the numbers that you're bringing up is very key here, because I think that clearly tells us that the majority of Catholics don't really know what the true life of a Catholic priest is all about, and that's exactly why I wrote the book.

BEGALA: That may well be, Mr. Kane. We're going to let Miss Pieczynski respond to that and others issues in just a moment. We have to take a break. Thank you for staying with us. When CROSSFIRE returns, more on the Vatican meeting of American cardinals and whether it will produce the kinds of reform that many of us in the church are seeking.

And the quote of the day, here is your first hint: He preaches hellfire and brimstone, but he loves his race horses. We're back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We are discussing with our guests the current issues rocking the Roman Catholic church. First, Linda Pieczynski of the Catholic reform group Call To Action, she is in Chicago. And Tom Kane, the author of the book, "Priests are People Too." He joins us from Pittsburgh. Thanks you both for staying with us.

NOVAK: Linda Pieczynski, one of the reasons that I am a Catholic convert, Paul is a Cradle Catholic, one of the many reasons I was attracted to the church, besides the spiritual reasons, is that it is an organization that doesn't operate on polls, it doesn't operate on majority vote, I had enough of politics, and it does put a lot of faith in the words of the holy father.

I'd like to quote to you and put it up on the screen of what the pope said just this past Saturday in an address to a Nigerian priest. He said the value of celibacy as a complete gift of self to the lord and his church must be carefully safeguarded. You just say, I don't agree with the pope on that? PIECZYNSKI: I don't agree that the priest -- that a celibate priesthood is the only way to give your full self to the work of the lord. I believe that as a married woman and as an attorney that that's what my vocation is, to give my life to God and serve in whatever way I can.

And the fact that priests are married or that women are priests does not mean that they're not giving their total self to God and God's work. I think that we have many ways of serving God, and certainly the married priests that are currently in the Roman Catholic church are not going against what the pope has said. Look, we have a tremendous priest shortage in the world, everywhere. We have 5,000 parishes in this country with no regular priest. At my parish a large suburban parish, we have one priest for 2,400 families. We are working our priests to death, and there's no reason that we should not let married men and women be priests.

NOVAK: Let me just have somebody respond to you who can do it much better than I, and that is Cardinal McCarrick, the archbishop of Washington, D.C. This is what he said just yesterday. Let's listen to him please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, ARCHDIOCESE OF WASHINGTON D.C.: If you're married, you have a natural and supernatural obligation to take care of your wife and family. That's No. 1. If you are celibate, your life is spent to take care of god's people; 98 percent of our fellows are doing that and they're doing it well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PIECZYNSKI: But let's be realistic. 50 percent of priests, according to the latest research, I believe by Donald Cousins, are saying that 50 percent of priests are not keeping their celibacy vow. So I think that's really a red herring to say that you can't devote your life -- it's an insult to our Protestant brothers and sisters who are ministers, to say that they're not fully serving God by saying that their attention is diverted because of marriage.

I think that if we had had married men. But if we had married men and women in the priesthood making decisions, I believe that the children would have been protected better and we would not have been placing pedophile priests back in parishes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's nonsense.

BEGALA: Miss. Pieczynski, I want to bring Mr. Kane in by asking you this question: 100 years ago, women were not allowed to receive communion during your menstrual cycle. After giving birth to a child, women had to be purified before they could reenter a church building. They were strictly forbidden from touching sacred objects like the chalice and the alter linen. They could not distribute holy communion. Their heads had to be veiled in church at all times. They were barred from entering the sanctuary except to clean. They could not read sacred scriptures from the pulpit, they couldn't preach, sing in the choir, be mass-servers. They could not be full members of co- fraternities and organizations in the church. Was the church a better instrument of Christ's love on earth when we did all of that to exclude women?

KANE: Paul, I can't even begin to comment on that. You know, you're talking about something that clearly I didn't get into with the research in my book, and what I just find so fascinating here is Linda's comments to go back to that, because she's saying that, in a sense...

BEGALA: I'm just asking your personal opinion as a Catholic and a writer about whether it's wise to exclude women from the priesthood the way we used to exclude them from everything else.

KANE: You're talking about two separate issues, Paul. John Paul II has clearly gone out -- and I believe it was either 1994 or 1996, and he has clearly stated that the ordination of women is the judgment to be definitely held by all the church's faithful...

PIECZYNSKI: We said the same thing about usury and Galileo 500 years ago.

KANE: I wasn't around 500 years ago. Linda.

PIECZYNSKI: But church tradition changes.

(BELL RINGING)

NOVAK: One at a time please.

BEGALA: Go ahead, Mr. Kane.

KANE: For Linda to sit and say that if priests were married and they were allowed to lift the celibacy ban then we would not be in this current priest crisis is absolutely ludicrous.

PIECZYNSKI: I'm saying if we had more people who cared about children we wouldn't be in this crisis.

NOVAK: That will have to be the last word. Thank you very much, Tom Kane. Thank you Linda Pieczynski.

Coming up next on CROSSFIRE, Tonya Harding skating on thin ice once again lands in trouble with the law. Details on our CROSSFIRE News Alert. And the quote of day, here's hint No. 2. He's a moral crusader who owns race horses. Who is he? Don't you know? Find out if you don't when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Now it's time for a look at those unusual and interesting stories that you might not find anywhere but in our CROSSFIRE News Alert. Tonya Harding's in trouble again. The former figure skater was cited for drunken driving in Battleground, Michigan.

Tonya crashed her pickup truck, what else would she be driving, into a ditch. Sheriff's deputies thought she had a little too much of the bubbly, and she flunked a sobriety test given right on the road. Now, sure, drunken driving is pretty small potatoes for Tonya. Now, don't forget she was barred for life from competitive figure skating after hiring a kneecapping of her rival. She was sentenced to jail for attacking her boyfriend with a bumper in a drunken brawl, and besides that, she was evicted from her home for nonpayment of rent. More recently, she beat up Paula Jones, as she continued her career as a professional boxer making her of one of Bill Clinton's favorite women.

BEGALA: The town of Silver City, New Mexico is raising money to honor one of its most famous citizens, Mildred, Kuzey (ph) the long time proprietor of Millie's Place, the town bordello. Millie passed away in 1993 at the age of 87, in her prime, Millie not only owned the Silver City whorehouse, but a veritable chain of houses of ill repute, reaching from Wyoming to Alaska.

The city fathers of Silver City and perhaps even a few of the city mothers fondly recall Millie's charity, her civic pride and her entrepreneurial spirit. So this weekend they hosted walking tours of the town's historic red light district, and are raising money to commemorate Millie's many contributions in the Silver City Museum. In a possible related story, actors Hugh Grant and Charlie Sheen announced they plan to move to Silver City, New Mexico.

NOVAK: It starts Sunday and runs through Saturday: Beat me in St. Louis. It's a sex workshop on bondage, domination and sadomasochism to be held at a Howard Johnson hotel in St. Louis, Missouri. The event is promoted by something called St. Louis Leather and Lace which calls for free expression on alternative lifestyles and forms of loving.

However, this isn't just plain clean fun, or even dirty fun in the opinion of critics. Republican state senator John Louden has called for a state government investigation of health hazards and the Southern Baptist convention calls it a private sex bash. I wonder whether politicians will turn up for "Beat Me in St. Louis."

BEGALA: It is time now for the CROSSFIRE quote of the day. Everybody who plays the ponies prays. You can hear them saying their hail Marys on the home stretch, and their hallelujahs in the winner's circle, but very few owners of horse racers are fundamentalist preachers. Here's the exception.

Reverend Pat Robertson, perhaps best known as the founder of the Christian Coalition, but at the track he's known as the owner of a thoroughbred named Mr. Pat, who just may qualify for the Kentucky Derby in two weeks.

A little hypocrisy here? Not according to the good reverend, who has often been in the middle of fights against gambling. He said in our quote of the day, quote, "I don't bet and I don't gamble. I just enjoy watching horses running and performing." Right, Pat.

University of Chicago theologian Martin Marty had this wonderful reply. He said, "Robertson's comment is like saying you're investing in a bordello, but aren't in favor of prostitution."

Coming up next on CROSSFIRE, Saddam Hussein is at it again, urging Arab Nations to hit the United States where it hurts most. Details in our CNN News Alert. And the dust is flying in environmental debate between George W. Bush and Al Gore. Is this a flashback to campaign 2000? No, just Earth Day. CROSSFIRE returns in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: On this Earth Day, President Bush is not retreating on the environmental front. President Bush is former opponent, Al Gore, went on the attack, charging that the administration's environmental policies serve special interests instead of public interests.

President Bush, plowing through the snow in New York's Adirondack Mountains, brushed aside Gore's rhetoric. He said he wasn't paying any attention to the former vice president, and instead, promoted his Clear Skies Plan by calling for mandatory limits on power plant emissions.

Now for the debate with our guests, let's welcome Democratic Congressman Edward Markey of Massachusetts and Fred Smith, president of the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Good to see you.

BEGALA: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Mr. Smith, let me begin with you. The man who actually got the most votes in the last presidential election spoke out today on the environment. I want you to take a look at what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL GORE, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT: On this Earth Day and during the days and months ahead, all who care about the environment should speak out because our environment is under siege today. There's a movement afoot by polluters to have undue influence in this administration. In fact, they're pretty in charge of the energy and environment policies of this administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEGALA: There's no doubt that the polluters are or maybe you would characterize them differently, the energy industry, is in charge of Bush, Inc.?

FRED SMITH, PRES., COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Afraid not. If you look at it, Enron was, of course, we would've thought if there was an influence person, it would be Enron. Enron pushed for the Kyoto Treaty and the president walked away from it because he put affordable energy ahead of the environmental scare stories that the Europeans have been trying to thrust on us.

BEGALA: Well let me run you through a very quick roster, not of everyone. The president of the United States, of course, used to run Arbusto (ph) Energy. Vice President Cheney ran Haliburton. The Commerce Secretary, Donnie Evans, used to run the Tom Brown Oil and Gas Company out of Colorado. The Chief of Staff of the White House used to run the American Automobiles Manufacturers Association.

The head of the Council of Environmental Equality was an attorney for the American Petroleum Institute. The Deputy Secretary of the Interior was for the National Mining Association. The Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management was an attorney for timber companies. And I could go on and on, as "The New York Times" did. Name me the most prominent environmentalist in the Bush administration?

SMITH: I guess I'd have to say the president and Gail Norton are the two.

BEGALA: The president ran energy. I mean, somebody from the environmental community who works for George Bush?

SMITH: Oh, I see, you've got to be a member of the Democratic Party now to be a member of the enviornmental...?

BEGALA: Teddy Roosevelt was an environmentalist.

SMITH: Teddy Roosevelt's dead. We can't have him in this administration, can we?

BEGALA: He'd be better than the ones they've got alive now.

SMITH: I don't necessarily think so. What you basically got -- the environmental program now is 30 years old. It's a...

BEGALA: So you could you point to as an environmentalist, Mr. Smith.

NOVAK: Paul, let him answer the question.

BEGALA: Answer the question. Who works for Bush...

SMITH: Gail Norton is basically understanding that you don't buy more land until you ensure you can manage what you've got already. He's been pushing to get the parks in good order. She basically has said we've got to reach beyond the bureaucracy to bring in private stewardship arrangements. She's exploring a whole array of bringing people in, rather than politicians or the environmental elites in. People are important to protect the environment, not just politicians.

NOVAK: Congressman Markey, this is Earth Day. Happy Earth Day, Ed.

REP. EDWARD MARKEY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Thank you so much. Happy Earth Day to you too, Bob.

NOVAK: The interesting thing about Earth Day is that my children, who are now in their 30s, when they were little kids, they went to school. And the teachers tried to brainwash them on Earth Day, tried to teach them that cars were bad, and the industry was bad, and all the people that Paul attacks because they work for business were bad. And it didn't work. Both of my kids are more conservative than I am.

So isn't this a kind of a metaphor for America, that all the propaganda that you and your people have been putting out on Earth Day just hasn't worked, and the American people are not just that much interested in it?

MARKEY: It does demonstrate, without question, the strength of the genetic code in your family. And beyond that, I don't think it has any other application.

I guess what I would say is that your children must have missed the fact that Gerald Ford signed the bill which doubled the fuel economy standards from 13 miles a gallon to 27 miles a gallon in 1975. And it worked. And President Ford -- I mean President Bush in 1990 signed the Clean Air Act. And year after year, whether it be refrigerators, or stoves, or air conditioners, or automobiles, all of those appliances or devices which consume energy were made more efficient.

But in this administration, GOP, which used to stand for Grand Old Party, now it stands for Gang of Polluters, because all they really care about now is taking care of the agenda of these energy elites in our country.

NOVAK: Well, we had an interesting little thing last week, which you may -- maybe fraught with danger for you and your party, Congressman Markey. And that was that the garden clubs terrorized the Republican senators into voting against drilling in the Anwar. And the blue-collar labor unions who wanted jobs to come out of Alaska were defeated.

Now I tell you, the organized labor knows what you did to them, and they may retaliate. As a practical politician, isn't that a problem?

MARKEY: Well, here's the thing, if you want to be practical, where the races are going to be decided for the United States House of Representatives this year are out in the suburbs. And out in the suburbs, these environmental issues have the very same strength amongst white men as they do amongst any other income or racial group.

And so, if you're actually looking at this from a practical political perspective, last week the Republican party was playing with a razor blade edged issue, the environment. And they were deciding that rather then ensuring that automobiles are more efficient, that air conditioners are more efficient, they were saying that we're a technological weak link, that we don't have the capacity technologically to make anything more efficiently.

NOVAK: I didn't hear anybody say that.

MARKEY: And that we're going -- that's what they said. They voted against all technological improvements in our society, the Republican party and they went instead to the most pristine parts of our environment.

SMITH: Congressman, this is the area that we've done a lot of work on. What they voted against was mandates that said you're going to drive a little car because it uses less energy. And what they passed instead was allowing Americans to buy the car and the home they want.

MARKEY: No, just the opposite.

SMITH: Absolutely. No look, Europe has a little go-carts to basically drive around because they have very high energy prices. In America, people have shifted from the cars they couldn't buy anymore. Station wagons went out of existence because of their corporate average fuel economy that you and others pushed on the American people.

MARKEY: You want to know what the problem is with your argument?

BEGALA: We have to go to break, Mr. Smith. But we will have lots more to go to. We're going to have to take a break right now.

When we return, more on the bitter fight over the environment with both of our guests back in the crossfire. And then, Novak and I lock horns in "round six" over the Democrats blue and red card for strategy and winning in November.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. The bare knuckle fight between Al Gore and George W. Bush over the environment is our topic. Our guests in the crossfire, Fred Smith, president of the Competitive Enterprise Institute and Congressman Edward Markey, a Democrat of Massachusetts and a member of the Energy and Commerce Committee.

Mr. Novak?

NOVAK: Congressman Markey, I'd like to put up on the screen a poll taken by the Harris Organization last month. And they asked the American people what are the most important issues, terrorism, 24 percent; economy 24 percent, tied for first. Third place, education, 14 percent. Then there are about four more issues. And down in eighth place, the environment 2 percent.

If you think you're going to win all those suburban districts, Ed Markey, with something that 2 percent of the people think is the most important issue, aren't you making a political blunder of the greatest magnitude?

MARKEY: Well, if I'm making a big blunder, then you're making a big blunder having a show on it if only 2 percent of the public is interested.

NOVAK: Let's cut it off right now.

MARKEY: So obviously this issue has huge implications, not just in suburban America, that's wrong, because it's something that touches every person in the country. We now have 8 million children with asthma. We have 25 million Americans total with asthma. And there's been a dramatic rise over the last 35 years in our country. And because of that, it's becoming a major public health issue.

And the American Heart Association, the American Lung Association, the American Medical Association are now signaling pollution as a cause...

NOVAK: As a former asthmatic, it's mostly psychosomatic anyway.

MARKEY: Well, in your case maybe, but for most of the other 25 million Americans, that is not the case. And this is becoming a cutting edge issue, public health as well as the environment.

BEGALA: Let me ask you a pretty simple question. President Bush, when he was Governor Bush, campaigned saying he would limit carbon dioxide emissions. He flip-flopped on that. He has also taken the industry position that polluters should not pay to clean up Superfund. He has issued executive orders drafted by the oil industry and the gas industry.

I'm interested, if you can think back to Bush's career so far of 15 months as president, and tell me a single time he has sided with ordinary Americans on the environment against corporate interests?

SMITH: I think the example of the corporate (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BEGALA: He was on the corporate side of that.

SMITH: No, he wasn't.

BEGALA: He was on the side of the bill (UNINTELLIGIBLE) big oil.

SMITH: ...on the family friendly car side of that.

BEGALA: Now -- did he not have the same position as the big oil companies and against the position of the national...

SMITH: No, but the oil companies (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on that issue was the auto companies. At least get the lobbyists right. Basically on the automobile selection issue, he was for freedom of choice and safer new automobiles. The National Academy of Sciences did a study and found out thousands were dying because of Congressman Markey's mandated save energy, kill people. But the point is...

BEGALA: Can you name me a time he stood up against corporate interests and for people?

SMITH: Enron, I told you earlier.

BEGALA: Well that's just because more corporations paid him more.

SMITH: Enron wanted him to sign the Kyoto, because they got money by energy rationing. He blocked that issue. That is something that's very important to realize. Look, the environment's getting better and people know this issue.

NOVAK: All right, you want to respond to that?

MARKEY: Sure. If President Bush was charged with being an environmentalist, there wouldn't be any evidence to convict him. OK, that's the bottom line on the issue. On this issue of whether or not automobiles kill peope, after President Ford signed the bill in 1975, doubling the fuel economy standards between 1975 and '95, fuel economy went up to 27 miles per gallon. And the number of American fatalities was cut in half.

Now the problem with that is that you want to ignore the history and say we can't do it again. And saying we can't do it again. We're technologically inferior now.

SMITH: OK, got to be clear, congressman.

NOVAK: We're going to have to resume this debate at another place at another network. Thank you very much, Congressman Ed Markey. Thank you very much, Fred Smith.

Coming up later on CROSSFIRE, your chance to fire back at us. And don't be surprised if we fire back at you. And "round six," I'll knock some sense into Paul Begala on why a permanent tax cut has nothing to do with Social Security.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Round 6. No guests, no gloves, just Begala and me slugging it out.

Paul, last week, the House of Representatives passed a bill to make permanent all the tax cuts that were passed by Congress last year and signed into law by the president. Now the Democrats are afraid to oppose any kind of tax cut. They could have said that this is bad making these permanent, but they came up with this ridiculous concept that if you cut taxes, it's going to cut Social Security payments.

You know as well as I know that is a lie, that there's nothing whatsoever to do between the income tax and Social Security. Income taxes go up, they go down. Has nothing to do with how much people get paid for their Social Security benefits, which is set by law.

BEGALA: We know for a fact that Bush, who promised when he ran for office not to raid the Social Security trust fund, has already begun to do so to the tune of $2 trillion. The Social Security runs a surplus today because Baby Boomers are paying into it.

Instead of taking that surplus and setting it aside for Social Security, the way that Bill Clinton and Al Gore did, Bush is using it to finance his tax cut for the rich. And what the House passed, let me finish, the House passed a vote last week. The House Republicans in a party line vote voted to steal another trillion dollars of Social Security. That is the vote that will cost the republicans the House of Representatives, because they're stealing from our senior citizens. NOVAK: That's the gobbledy gook about taking out of this fund. You ought to be an accountant, Paul because that is just off the books balancing. You ought to be with Arthur Andersen. Now what the fact of the matter is, you didn't answer my question, the fact that Social Security payments have had nothing to do with the level of income tax that's paid or is not paid. You know that for a fact.

BEGALA: If we don't correct the Bush tax cut, we will have huge cuts in Social Security. And by the way, my Democrats...

NOVAK: Well, that's not true. That's a lie.

BEGALA: It is absolutely true, Mr. Novak.

NOVAK: When have Social Security payments -- when have Social Security benefits ever been reduced because of a decline in income taxes?

BEGALA: We have never allowed the Republicans to raid the trust fund to the extent. We've never had a Baby Boomer population retire like this.

NOVAK: All through the Carter administration...

BEGALA: It's an actuarial fact. It's simple mathematics. You can't suck $2, $4 trillion dollars out of a program expected to be fined. Now my Democrats, by the way, are fighting back with their list.

NOVAK: Don't go with that (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BEGALA: You watch, it's going to win back the House.

NOVAK: Straight ahead on CROSSFIRE, fire back. You fire at us, and we'll return to fire at you. Back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: It's fire back time, when the viewers and the audience fires back at us. We'll start with e-mails.

First e-mail is from Leon Feinstadt of Los Angeles, California. Wouldn't you know it. "Novak, your right wing insanity belongs in the past with Richard Nixon. You have two right arms." Leon, let me tell you something, compared to me, Richard Nixon was a liberal Republican.

BEGALA: And here's our second one from Rick Caeser of Lansing, Michigan. "Thanks to CNN management for giving progressive Americans a voice again on your channel. I have started watching CNN again." Well, thank you, Rick. We'll keep it up.

NOVAK: Got to be wary of Caesar.

BEGALA: The truly fair network.

NOVAK: OK, the next one is from Todd Brisendine who says, "Does Robert Novak get a commission for each time he uses the word demagogue or demagoguery?" I wish I did. "Funny how everyone who disagrees with him just happens to be one. If you ask me, Novak sounds like the demagogue around here." Todd, you're a demagogue.

BEGALA: I love it. OK, here's from Greg Frick, Sr. of New York, New York. "I think President Bush should draft Paul Begala and put him in charge of the search for Osama bin Laden since he seems to think it's such a simple task. I think his constant discourteous comments toward our president are cowardly." I've never said bad about Al Gore. He's our real president. What are you talking about?

NOVAK: OK, George W. Bush is president. You're going to learn that before I'm through with you.

BEGALA: Never.

NOVAK: Question?

MICHAEL: How are you doing, guys? My name is Michael Bogart from Beechwood, Ohio. I was wondering do you think Al Gore is stepping up the rhetoric because he's looking for a rematch in 2004?

NOVAK: You better believe it. And I'll tell you, there's so many of us, next to Al Sharpton, he is my favorite Democratic candidate for president.

BEGALA: I tell you what. He was hotter than a $2 pistol today though. I mean, he got more votes than Bush last time. He'll probably get more votes the next time. Good for you, Al. Way to go.

NOVAK: Go ahead.

TOM: Hi, I'm Tom Castles from New York, New York.

NOVAK: Is that the same as New York City?

TOM: It is.

NOVAK: OK, yes, go ahead.

TOM: If the responsibility and dedication priests must make is to minister to the faith of Catholic men and women, what makes men more appropriate in the role of stewards?

NOVAK: Because that's in the scripture, that they are. And I believe in the scripture. If you don't believe in the scripture, you can have some women priests.

BEGALA: Personally, Tom is one of my students at Georgetown University, a fine Catholic school, but of course scriptures in the book of Galatians saying Paul wrote that there is no female or male in Jesus. And I think there's no female or male in Jesus, there ought to be no male or female discrimination in Christ's priesthood either.

NOVAK: Question? STEVE: My name is Steve Trackton and I'm from Washington, D.C. I'd like to know why the Bush administration seems to totally ignore conservation as a means for decreasing dependency on foreign energy sources?

NOVAK: They don't ignore it, but what they don't want to do is boss Americans around and tell them they can't drive in their big cars or SUVs, their sport cars. I have a Corvette sport car, and they're not going to take it away from me.

BEGALA: No one is going to take away your sports car. But in fact, Dick Cheney went to Toronto and gave a very famous speech where he publicly attacked the notion of conservation, which even energy industry executives said was out of step with the realities.

NOVAK: Yes, ma'am?

JENNA: Hi, my name is Jenna Nussman. I'm from Emass (ph), Pennsylvania. I was wondering how you can justify President Bush's refusal to include carbon dioxide emissions in his Clear Skies emission?

NOVAK: What is this, the Sierra Club meeting or something like this.

JENNA: That's where I work.

NOVAK: Well, it's because he didn't want to give Kenny Lay a big windfall on selling the CO2 credits. You ought to study up on that. Heather, get some other questions in there, for goodness sakes.

BEGALA: In point of fact, Bush did promise the country, when he campaigned, he gave his word that he would support...

NOVAK: It was a mistake, too.

BEGALA: No, he's a man of his most recent word is all it is. He just gives his word and he breaks it.

KEITH: I'm Keith Cossack (ph) from Kenwick, Washington. Many old testament priests were married as well as many of the apostles were. My question is, is their devotion or their ministry less than those of the Catholic priests? And if not, what's the problem?

NOVAK: Go ahead.

BEGALA: As you know, you can tell I support a married priesthood. And I think that our brothers in the Eastern rite, who are Catholic priests are just as good priests or are priests in America who are Roman Catholic priests who are married because the pope allowed a few of them to be married, are just as good a priests as well.

NOVAK: It was decided very early in the church that you could not have -- a priest could not serve communion if he had sex the night before. When communion began to be served every day, can you figure out where that left it? That's marriage...

BEGALA: I got four kids, I could serve it every day. Man, once you've got four kids, that's it, you're celibate not by choice. From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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