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CNN Crossfire
Did Carter's Visit to Cuba Help U.S. Relations with Cuba?; Should some Types of Guns be Banned?
Aired May 13, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE tonight, ex-presidents and peacemaking. They've got the credentials and the connections. Should they stay on the golf course or take a swing at changing the world?
He rocks, he rolls, he locks, he loads. Tonight on our stage, Ted Nugent singing the praises of the Second Amendment.
And does the 2004 Democratic beef stakes need a woman's touch? Ahead on CROSSFIRE.
From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson.
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST: Good evening, and welcome to CROSSFIRE coming to you from the George Washington University in Washington, D.C.
Tonight here on campus, you know, the perennial favorites are sex, drugs, and rock and roll. We'll be a little different tonight, shifting the focus to guns, politics, and rock and roll with none other than the motor city madman Ted Nugent.
But, first, should American ex-presidents be more active or more retiring? After all, who wouldn't want respected elder statesmen smiling for the cameras in a place that no American president since Coolidge has visited?
On the other hand, who wants him poking around a research facility where Comrade Fidel may be churning out biological weapons research for global terrorists?
And could this guy throw around a little more weight in the Middle East than the current occupant of the Oval Office has been? Well, he's ready and waiting to be asked.
Are America's former presidents meddlers or mediators?
Joining us now is New York Congressman Charlie Rangel, who has hardly ever been accused of meddling in anything outside of his expertise, and former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger, who served during the administration of President Bush's father.
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Congressman Rangel, thanks for joining us.
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: Good to be back.
CARLSON: As you know, Jimmy Carter, former president, is in Cuba right now, and I want to read you a quote. CNN is reporting this as of about two hours ago. This is Jimmy Carter.
Quote, "The Cuban government is dedicated to providing superb education, health care, and equal opportunities to all the people. So we," meaning the U.S. and Cuba, "have many things in common and a few things on which we differ," including, of course, free speech, freedom of elections, and we don't put AIDS patients in concentration camps, et cetera.
And I guess my question to you is -- this is obviously an outrageous totally untrue and very provocative statement, but isn't it also particularly wrong coming from a former president because it is so wildly at odds not only with common sense but with American policy?
RANGEL: I don't think that former presidents have to stick to an ideology if there's no basis for it. The statement that former President Carter made is not at odds with anything that the Bush administration has said.
They have a fantastic educational and medical educational system over there, and I don't -- I think that goes unchallenged, and the fact that we have presidents who have resources that can be of assistance to presidents, I think, is something that should be taken advantage of.
CARLSON: OK. Well, here, Mr. Rangel -- here is a statement by former President Carter that is greatly at odds with the position of the U.S. government.
Recently, State Department official John Bolton made the statement that the U.S. believes Cuba is exporting biological weapons information to rogue states, to terrorist countries that support terrorism. While in Cuba yesterday, President Carter said that is a lie.
So here you have the former president siding with a dictator against his own country. Wrong?
RANGEL: Well, the dictator went on international television and said that he would allow President Carter to visit anyplace, any institution that he wanted, and to explore the allegations that were made by this person in the White House.
Incidentally, these allegations came just at a time that former President Carter was leaving the United States. I've heard a lot of allegations made against the government of Cuba, but this is a brand new one, and if there's no substance to it -- and, certainly, the statement never gave us in the Congress any reason to believe that it was any more than just a political statement.
The man is there. If he had seen it, I truly believe that President Carter would not be hoodwinked by a communist dictator, and he would want to bring an end to this if it was occurring.
BEGALA: Mr. Secretary, first, let me thank you for coming on CROSSFIRE tonight. I appreciate your time.
The White House responded in what I thought was an odd way to President Carter's visit. They did grant him permission to go, so he has something of a blessing. I mean, they could have stopped him if they wanted to.
LAWRENCE EAGLEBURGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: They would have been stupid to try it.
BEGALA: I agree. They would have been stupid to. They let him go.
But, more to the point, the president's press spokesman Ari Fleischer said -- trying to put a good light on it, said, "Well, perhaps President Carter can talk to them about the benefits of free elections and free travel."
Let's set aside the argument of anybody in the Bush White House talking about free elections and only focus on the question of travel. Our country, in fact, is a country that restricts American citizens from going to Cuba if they want to.
So don't you think it would be better if the White House just sort of let President Carter to do what he wanted and then moved on to their own agenda.
EAGLEBURGER: Oh, I think it would have been far better for the White House to just leave it alone, but that doesn't say anything about President Carter. I wish he'd stay home where he belongs.
You know, what he did and the things you've cited are examples of how he can't take a mission like this and play it straight. You will recall several years ago when Kim Il Sung was still the dictator of North Korea -- and some of us who are old enough fought in that war. We don't like him -- Jimmy Carter embraced him, kissed him on the cheek.
I don't happen to think that's the way to deal with that kind of a dictator. I don't think it is the way to deal with Cuba. Mind you, I believe that ever since the Soviet Union collapsed we should have had a different policy toward Cuba.
(CROSSTALK)
EAGLEBURGER: ... but that doesn't mean we should send the George -- the peanut...
BEGALA: The president of the United States.
EAGLEBURGER: ... the president of the United States...
(CROSSTALK)
EAGLEBURGER: I mean, he gets in the way. He didn't do any good. He probably didn't do much harm, but he certainly didn't advance the cause of getting Cuba into a different state with...
BEGALA: Mr. Secretary, as you pointed out -- in fact, you went to a Republican convention in August of 2000 along with Secretary of State George Schultz.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Secretary of State when you -- you told the Republicans your position that we should lift this embargo and open up, which is the self same position that President Carter holds today. So I'm wondering if -- former secretaries of state can offer opinions but not former presidents?
EAGLEBURGER: Of course, he can offer an opinion. I mean, you don't see me running around Havana, do you? I mean, that happens to be something of a difference.
And -- and, with all due respect to myself, Jimmy Carter is a lot more known than little Mr. Eagleburger, and when he goes off to Havana this way, plays this pat-on-the-head game with Castro, he doesn't do Castro any good, he doesn't do the cause of getting the two countries into a different relationship any good at all.
He is made a phony by the things that you've just quoted here. He made a phony in the whole task, just as he did with the leader of North Korea. I mean, he doesn't have enough sense to do it right. How's that?
CARLSON: And, Mr. Eagleburger, as I understand it...
RANGEL: I have really never had -- you know, I've heard a lot of derogatory things said about a lot of past presidents...
(CROSSTALK)
EAGLEBURGER: ... a hard time.
RANGEL: No, no. But I'm telling you I think that President Carter really has served this nation well and better than any ex- president I've known, and I also would like to say, when you talk about interfering and dealing with communists, hell, I was shocked by Chinese communists in North Korea while fighting for South Korea, and we're doing business with all these communist countries, and so you would have us to believe that he's a Jane Fonda in interfering with American foreign policy. We don't have a foreign policy with Cuba. We have a Florida -- we have a Florida policy dealing with Cuba.
CARLSON: Well, that's a clever line, but, actually, we do have a foreign policy with Cuba, and if we could just take one communist dictatorship at a time, your position, as I understand it, is that, because Fidel Castro said that his country's not deporting bioweapons technology to rogue states, it must be true. I want you to listen to...
RANGEL: I did not ever say -- we don't -- we don't have any evidence at all...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... actually.
RANGEL: Well, why didn't they give it to me when I was going to Havana two weeks ago? They knew I was going. I was briefed by the State Department. They didn't tell me that this country is manufacturing...
CARLSON: Then is your position then, Mr. Rangel, that the administration spokesman who claimed that Cuba was exporting this technology was lying? Is that what you're saying?
EAGLEBURGER: Worse than that. He said there's evidence that they may be doing it, so, therefore, you can't tell people who don't make a statement -- you can't call them a liar because some evidence -- and they're reviewing an old report.
It wasn't as though they had sent someone to do an investigation. This is old information that the new Bush administration took a look at and said it may happen. The secretary of state didn't say...
CARLSON: Here's some new information then. Why don't -- I want you to take a -- I want you to watch Alina Fernandez. This is Fidel Castro's own daughter, and I want you to listen to her assessment of President Carter's trip to her father's country. Here she is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALINA FERNANDEZ, FIDEL CASTRO'S DAUGHTER: He won't change. He will use Carter, as he used the pope, and he's been using everybody down there. So that's what we will see. We won't step (ph) to democracy. He won't make any move for Cuban freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEGALA: Listen to that, I mean, don't you think, in this case, daughter knows best? Everyone who knows...
RANGEL: No, no.
BEGALA: ... Cuba knows that's true, Mr. Rangel.
RANGEL: If you're deal -- if that's President Bush's new foreign adviser on Cuba, I yield to you, you know.
BEGALA: Thanks.
We just had (INAUDIBLE) on, who -- a man in eight months who's going to be the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. He's the ranking Democrat on that committee right now. Once the Democrats take the House...
EAGLEBURGER: What have you been smoking, Paul?
BEGALA: In any event, he's a senior member of the Congress of the United States. He went to Havana, he just told us, a few weeks ago, didn't get my briefing from the State Department about chemical and biological technology that Castro may be exporting.
This guy -- I have no idea if it's true or not, and I do give the benefit of the doubt to our government in this argument, but the timing looks very political to me, as an old political hand. Doesn't it look that way to you?
EAGLEBURGER: I might -- I don't know whether there's any truth to the thing or not. I know John Bolton. I think he's a good guy. I don't think he would be making it up.
I guess I would say to you I wish he would have done it either a good bit earlier or waited until after former President Carter got home, but I -- because -- if for no other reason than it looks fishy and it may not be.
BEGALA: Do we need -- does this -- should this precipitate some new --- a new embargo or new blockade of Cuba? What do we need to do if, in fact, they've got chemical weapons?
(CROSSTALK)
EAGLEBURGER: ... and if, in fact, they're doing nasty things, getting ready with this stuff, then we're going to have to take action.
Now don't get me -- don't let me try to give you a formula right now, but there's no question we cannot tolerate that 90 miles from the United States any more than we could tolerate Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba 90 miles from the U.S.
BEGALA: OK. Well, on that happy note...
RANGEL: Mr. Secretary...
BEGALA: Mr. Rangel...
RANGEL: You can't get more professional than you, and when you say we should remove the embargo, I'm with Larry Eagleburger.
CARLSON: OK. Now...
EAGLEBURGER: Boy, am I in trouble.
CARLSON: Now you're joining sides. That's our sign we have to take a break.
When we come back, we'll turn our attention to another would-be meddler in chief, one who fancies himself as an expert in the Middle East. And, later...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED NUGENT, MUSICIAN: Cat scratch fever / cat scratch fever...
CARLSON: ... guitarist, gun fancier, and big NRA member Ted Nugent. CROSSFIRE rocks on after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.
America's ex-presidents have a wealth of name recognition and experience, not to mention ego and a fondness for making headlines, but is Bill Clinton really the right man to bring peace to the Middle East.
That's the question that brings us to our debate this evening. America's ex-presidents -- meddlers or mediators?
Our guests, Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel joins us from New York, and here in Washington, former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger.
Mr. Rangel, when he was president, Bill Clinton -- and I always sympathized with him on this, if nothing else -- was very irritated by former President Carter sort of buzzing around the world; in a couple of cases -- North Korea and Haiti, to name two -- really kind of caused a problem for this administration by his meddling.
With that in mind, it's fascinating to me that as an observer that Bill Clinton now apparently wants to be named some sort of special envoy for the Middle East. In other words, he wants to meddle just as Jimmy Carter once did. Do you see a contradiction or irony there?
RANGEL: It's my understanding that President Bush has asked former President Clinton to be his representative to one of the countries in working out some negotiating there and that no one has ever challenged the negotiating skills of Bill Clinton, and I think that he as well as Judge Mitchell and, also, George Bush senior should be used as advisers to this administration, especially in the Middle East, which seems to have no policy.
BEGALA: In fact, Mr. Secretary, the -- President Clinton, who I've talked to about this, has not asked for any role in the Middle East, does not seek any role, but was asked once, if he was asked by President Bush, would he go. He said of course.
Why wouldn't George Bush ask him? If this offer (ph) fails, politically, he can always blame the Democrat. And, if it succeeds, he will have -- Bush will get all the credit anyway because he's the president.
EAGLEBURGER: First of all, I'm relieved to hear you say he's never been asked. It makes me feel better already.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... remarkably successful in Middle East policy.
EAGLEBURGER: He did?
BEGALA: Brought us closer to peace than we've been in...
EAGLEBURGER: He certainly brought us a lot closer and a lot farther away before he left the -- but, anyway, look, that's not the point. I don't happen to be...
BEGALA: You don't blame him for the violence...
EAGLEBURGER: No, no, no. I do blame him, however, along with Barak for having set up a situation in those last eight months or so of the administration where there was no way -- he got closer to the end -- for them to consummate the deal, and they kept pushing anyway.
I will say this, and this is not blaming Carter, but -- or Clinton, rather. I can't get them straight sometimes. But, anyway, it's not blaming him for the fact that there was so much disappointment on both sides over the failure of those talks.
So I don't -- a lot of this is a consequence of that, and I don't believe personally that he got us closer to peace because, in the end, he didn't get us to peace.
But that's not the point. I don't have...
BEGALA: This is...
EAGLEBURGER: Wait a minute.
BEGALA: This is a point. This is the libel that Bush junior and his White House press secretary both tried to spin out to the press and then backed off when reasonable people said, no, the fault for the violence lays totally on the terrorists.
EAGLEBURGER: Hey, I...
BEGALA: Doesn't Bush junior...
EAGLEBURGER: I didn't blame...
BEGALA: ... who advocated for...
EAGLEBURGER: I don't blame the terrorist on Clinton. I simply said he did not achieve a peace.
BEGALA: How about Bush who did nothing for 15 months, Mr. Secretary?
EAGLEBURGER: I happen to think that was exactly the thing he should have done. BEGALA: How many hundreds of dead...
EAGLEBURGER: We would have solved that by going in with -- you know, "Don't just stand there. Do something." That's the trouble with you people. You don't know...
BEGALA: We want peace in the world. Yes, guilty. Yes, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
EAGLEBURGER: I think the point is -- I don't happen to believe any president -- former president has any business in doing anything like this. They get in the way. They are not spokesmen for the administration. If a president specifically asks them to do something, that's different. Even that I don't like that.
CARLSON: Mr. Rangel, just to clear up one thing you said earlier, the country to which Bill Clinton has been dispatched is East Timor. So it's not exactly the...
RANGEL: But I'm saying it was...
(CROSSTALK)
RANGEL: It was at the request of President Bush, so, obviously, he must think the man has some talent.
CARLSON: But here's what he didn't ask for. He didn't ask for the former President Clinton to show up at a hotel in Houston recently on the late night prowl, wind up with a hotel room with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, right in the middle of very tense, very complicated negotiations, and have a two-hour private meeting with him with no representative from the administration present, completely freelancing (ph) right at the time of Congress. Isn't that outrageous behavior on the part of President Clinton?
RANGEL: Well, did -- did he ask for his father, former President Bush, have a two-day conference with the same prince without any administration people there at all? And did you know that he had this meeting after the prince of Saudi Arabia left the Crawford, Texas? He went to meet with President Bush's father.
So, obviously, the prince wanted to meet with a lot of people and a lot of former presidents.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... Bush leaning on his father, Mr. Secretary?
EAGLEBURGER: I doubt very -- I don't think...
BEGALA: Daily. Daily, I bet.
EAGLEBURGER: I bet you not.
RANGEL: He's an official adviser, and he should be. EAGLEBURGER: The president's father knows that, if it appears that he is, in fact, deeply involved with his son, it's only going to hurt the son. I don't believe it.
BEGALA: Mr. Secretary -- Lawrence Eagleburger, Secretary of State under President Bush, thank you very much. Charlie Rangel from New York, Democrat out of New York City, thank you very much as well.
Coming up now in our CROSSFIRE news alert, the house guest who wouldn't go away. Will he be knocking on your door next?
And it's time for our first hint about the CROSSFIRE quote of the day. It's from a member of a famous political family but not the Bushes. Will this person follow in her father's famous footsteps? We'll unlock the mystery.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. It's time for the best five-minute education in cable television. It's time for the CROSSFIRE news alert.
First up tonight. After Kathleen Willey's radio show and Tonya Harding's boxing special, it was only a matter of time before O.J. Simpson house guest Kato Kaelin returned to haunt America. Now he has.
He is shopping around a TV series in which he knocks on doors of unsuspecting homeowners and invites himself in to spend the weekend in front of the TV cameras, of course. He calls the show, "House Guest."
It's all a response to a little known second 15-minutes law, which requires all players in tabloid scandals to return periodically to the public stage for yet another dose of publicity. Any former Clinton administration officials have to fulfill their obligation under the law by running for political office.
BEGALA: Or hosting political argument shows on cable television.
The Associated Press reports that the National Academy of Sciences is studying new non-lethal weapons technology for use in the battlefields of the 21st century. Among the new devices are microorganisms that gobble up highways and runways and aerosol sprays that can shut down entire computer systems.
The Marine Corps is said to be especially interested in what it calls situational control by all factory stimuli, a super duper smelly substance that would be sprayed at people inducing nausea and causing crowds to disperse.
President Bush praised the research saying, "I just hope I get a few of canisters of that sneaky spray for the next time I play Army at Camp David with that butt head Jeb."
CARLSON: You might not be able to tell from their uniforms, but the Girl Scouts are up to date, relevant, and hipper than ever. Thin Mints remain the same. Everything else is subject to revision, including merit badges.
Rather than (ph) awards for home economics, in their place this year, an adventure sports badge for rock climbing, kayaking, and mountain biking, a (INAUDIBLE) president's badge for participation in community matters, and our favorite, the stress less badge for learning to identify and manage stressful situations without the aid of Pinot Brugio (ph) and Virginia Slims. Harder than it sounds.
BEGALA: After 36 years as a lovable and docile domestic pet in the California town of West Covina, Mo the chimp has been taken away from his owners and sent to an animal shelter.
It turns out Mo, who has appeared in numerous commercial and TV shows, including "Bowling for Dollars," bit a woman's fake fingernail off when, despite being warned not to, the woman stuck her finger in the primate's cage.
Upon learning of Mo's (INAUDIBLE), ABC and Fox launched a bidding war to sign the chimp to star in a reality TV series. Said one network executive, "Mo's a tougher fighter than those losers on celebrity boxing, and he speaks English better than Ozzy Osbourne."
CARLSON: What's the deep lesson in that story, Paul? Don't stick your finger in the primate's cage. That's an important lesson. That could be a bumper sticker.
BEGALA: Now to Tucker's Girl Scouts. You'll get brownie points if your current affairs badge is up to date.
Stick around for a CNN news alert, and then we'll include -- that will include, actually, a possible new terrorist alert. We thought you'd like to hear that.
And then up next, you're be able to work on your Second Amendment to the Constitution badge with our guest Scout leader, none other than Ted Nugent.
And here's another hint for our quote of the day. It comes from the author of four books, a woman who likes her privacy, but will she be persuaded to give it up?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE, live from the George Washington University in lovely downtown Washington, D.C.
Our quote of the day comes from a graduate of the Columbia Law School, a few miles north of here in New York City. Caroline Kennedy, the daughter of the former president, was asked on "MEET THE PRESS" yesterday if she might ever run for elective office. And she replied with our quote of the day, "I have no plans." And when asked for a clarification. She added "that keeps the door open, there's a lot of people getting through that door ahead of me." Run Caroline, run.
CARLSON: Well, you know what? The lot of people she's talking about, I think she's talking about her 7,000 relatives already holding political office. And I think, Paul, at some point, Americans are going to rise up. As they've done before, the Whiskey Rebellion, and say, we've had enough. OK? America is saturated with Kennedys in office. Throw off the shackles. Enough is enough. I'm sure she's a delightful person, probably writes a decent book, but this isn't good for America, this trend where every generation, 30 or 40 Kennedys get elected to office.
BEGALA: So you'll be supporting Janet Reno for Florida governor against Jeb Bush. You'll be supporting Hillary if she runs for president against Bush, junior, who's in the White House. Right? There's a Republican dynasty. But this is -- the Kennedys actually get more votes more than their opponents, which is a novel way, I guess, in the Bush era, of getting elected to office.
CARLSON: I tell what. You know what, Paul, you're talking about two versus and I'm not exaggerating. I think there are 7,500 members of the Kennedy family now on the public payroll. And that is too much. There's no way you can defend that. And every one of them debases the memory of President Kennedy...
BEGALA: Oh, stop.
CARLSON: ...who actually had a lot to recommend.
BEGALA: Stop.
CARLSON: Seriously, low taxes. It's absolutely true. Low taxes, solid foreign policy. He was a good president in a lot of ways. And they, I think, do soil that memory.
BEGALA: Yes, all kidding aside about the Bush boys. It's honorable and noble that they serve as it is for the Kennedys. No family in this country's paid a higher price for public service in war, in peace...
CARLSON: Look, they've had many tragedies.
BEGALA: ...in office, than the Kennedy family. So seriously, all kidding aside about dynasties...
CARLSON: All kidding aside.
BEGALA: These are people who have earned our respect.
CARLSON: Because they're still bad politicians.
BEGALA: Why do they keep winning then? Again, they get more votes.
CARLSON: Because they run in Massachusetts.
BEGAL: They get more votes.
CARLSON: You may never hear this again in your lifetime, but there is in fact, believe it or not, something Paul Begala and I can agree on. It isn't necessarily our taste in music, but it does involve musician Ted Nugent, who will join us next. And later, Paul and I debate a terrifying turn in Democratic party politics. Stay tuned for round six. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Ted Nugent burst into American consciousness in the 1970s with a blazing guitar and a wild act that earned him the name "the motor city wild man." Hits like "Cat Scratch Fever," "Wango Tango," and "Storm Trooping" may not be music to your ears, but Ted Nugent strikes a chord with countless Americans. That's because like many sensible people, he's an avid sportsman, hunter, and outspoken opponent of silly gun control laws.
And if you want to put your money where his mouth is, consider his new book, "Kill It and Grill It," a fantastic book. It features recipes for delicacies such as venison roast, sweet and sour antelope, and wild sheep shanks. Please welcome Ted Nugent to the CROSSFIRE stage.
BEGALA: Take a seat. We've got a little meat here for you.
Mr. Nugent?
TED NUGENT: Yes, sir?
BEGALA: First, congratulations on the book.
NUGENT: Is that cute or what?
BEGALA: It is outstanding. It really is. But let me -- I got a bone to pick with you.
NUGENT: I got a bone to clean with you.
BEGALA: All right, here we go. You start. The only thing I don't like about this book...
NUGENT: Yes?
BEGALA: Massive suck up to some guy named Sean Hannity. Now let me show you a couple picks up on the big screen.
NUGENT: Well, you know, he's a cute guy. He needs some grits.
BEGALA: Cute guy. He had never shot off anything bigger than his mouth. Let me show you some pictures here of a real hunter. That's me and my brother Dave and a deer we shot down in Tony Sanchez' ranch, my buddy down in Texas. There we go.
NUGENT: You're a real American, damn it.
BEGALA: And we also -- I'm a big bird...
NUGENT: How about you, Tucker? where's you (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
BEGALA: Bird hunters? CARLSON: I was shooting this weekend, Ted.
NUGENT: Good work, I love a man who kills his own dinner.
BEGALA: And you know what? I don't -- this is South Dakota pheasant hunting, as you well know.
NUGENT: But I'm on a crusade, I'm going to take Sean, and I'm going to take Tucker, and I'm going to take everybody in America. And I'm going to teach them how to get the ultimate pure sustenance and be a steward of these precious resources. Stick with me.
BEGALA: I'm totally for it. I've got some venison sausage from deer that I have killed myself for you, straight out of the cookbook. But here's my quarrel.
NUGENT: Yes, what do you got going?
BEGALA: Is that I didn't need an AK-47 to bring down that big buck.
NUGENT: Yes, well, good for you.
BEGALA: And I didn't need an Uzi to shoot those pheasants. We have sensible gun laws in this country. And they harm law abiding citizens like you and I, do they?
NUGENT: What the hell does that have to do with anything?
BEGALA: We need a Brady bill, right? I mean, there's some people out there who think if you're for gun control, you're anti- hunting, you're anti guns.
NUGENT: You know, Paul, with all due respect, this is good venison, by the way. Good work.
BEGALA: Isn't that good?
NUGENT: I'll have you handle my carcass when I go.
BEGALA: I would be thrilled to.
NUGENT: What kind of idiot, with all due respect, would attempt to equate firearms utilized for sporting purposes and firearms used for other purposes? Our founding fathers had no question whatsoever that we had the right to get food. So they didn't even include that in the documents. Certainly they were concerned about self-defense. And I know a bunch of guys in South Central Los Angeles that if it were not for semi-automatic weapons, which are exactly like these semi-automatic uzis and AK's that you're talking about, their establishments would have been burned down. And they could have been killed.
But they needed weapons more than just a three-shot deer rifle to protect their neighborhoods. So I'm in support of the common sense that sometimes firepower is needed for certain specific duties. And deer hunting and defense of property and self have no relationship whatsoever. Your turn.
CARLSON: That's a tough -- I have to say I'm not sure I can ask a question. I would agree with all of that. And I would say I'm a better shot than Paul.
BEGALA: So you think, no, you think teenagers should have access to these AK-47s, so they can slaughter each other on the street?
NUGENT: Well first of all, there are no AK-47s available.
BEGALA: Because we passed a law.
NUGENT: Fully automatic weapons have been banned since 1934.
BEGALA: That's gun control. And I'm for it, so are you, right?
NUGENT: And there are over 2.5 million lawfully owned fully automatic machine guns in private citizens' hands in this. Good venison.
BEGALA: Oh, God, now you're going to be choking on it. It is pretty spicy. We make it in south Texas.
CARLSON: Yes, while you choke to death, let me ask you a question. That's exactly right. I'll lay off the demagoguery, unlike Paul. But let me just...
NUGENT: You got to cut it smaller. I got to get you a knife, here.
CARLSON: Now I want to read you a quote from the NRA Convention last month. This was...
NUGENT: Which I was proud to be a part of. I'm on the board of directors.
CARLSON: Amen and good for you. It's a marvelous organization. But here's your quote. This was quoted in "The San Francisco Chronicle." This is your take on September 11. September 11 "was the culmination of a hippy mindset, that you shouldn't resist when confronted by evil. Give peace a chance is a laugh. The only way to peace is to eliminate those who would challenge peace." Now I agree with the second part, mostly, but the first part, September 11 was a culmination of a hippy mindset you shouldn't resist evil. The U.S. has resisted evil pretty vigorously, wouldn't you say? say?
NUGENT: No. We've had a policy in this country. In fact, under the Clinton administration, it's been documented that we know where Osama was on numerous occasions. And we know the documented threats to destroy America, to destroy American's lives. And we did nothing. And you're talking about Jimmy Carter, who embarrassed America by allowing a bunch of hippy college kids to take American citizens hostage for over two years. And he did nothing.
I'm just a guitar player, and I could have fixed that. These are the kinds of give peace a chance nonsense that I believe has sent a message around the globe that, yes, you can bless with America because we'll tolerate your evil. We'll tolerate your crime. And I think it's time to stand up and say we won't be tolerant to evil or dangerous conditions. And those that perpetrate them should be neutralized and eliminated.
CARLSON: But at the same time, don't you think that the very same politicians you're talking about who tolerate this sort of thing, are the same ones who have total loathing and contempt for you and people like you, people who bring knives on to sets and eat venison sausage. People who own guns. People like -- no, no, but culturally, you have nothing in common. And they have contempt for you. Why is that?
NUGENT: Because I turned down their dope. And I turned down their stupid trends. And the hippies always hated me, because they were preaching peace and love and I was loading a .44 magnum. All the people criticized me for being a gun lover, they're all dead. They puked and died. That's not a party where I come from. A party where I come from is a family having venison...
BEGALA: Geez, I've choked him. Amen, but not choking on it. You got to admit.
All right, let me actually, take a minute to drink and I'm going to read...
CARLSON: This is beef.
BEGALA: Oh, no, certainly not. A quote out of your book though, where you talk about habitat, which is really important. This is conservation.
NUGENT: Primary.
BEGALA: Primary Habitat for Wildlife, right? "Even the TV personality, Steve Irwin, you write in the book, the crocodile hunter has said that Habitat destruction is the most important issue facing his home country of Australia as well as America in the world. Those who walk on the wild side know this truth." Wouldn't you be more comfortable sleeping at night, knowing you had Democrats running things, who protect habitat. George W. Bush, who is a hunter, has allowed corporate America to pave over all this habitat, mining in our national parks, logging in our national forests, decapitating mountains.
NUGENT: You and me, pal, we're going to work together to save swamps. All right?
BEGALA: All right, they're important habitat. You have to explain to these workers...
NUGENT: There's a common ground.
BEGALA: Robber barons is why we need habitat.
NUGENT: But you know, the organizations that have saved millions of acres, Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, these are a cross-section of America...
BEGALA: Absolutely.
NUGENT: ...from every imaginable social stratum. So I think it's a common ground that we need to reach out. And everybody who wants to save wild ground, it's not about hunting opportunities. It's about the source of our air, soil, and water quality. So I think anybody who truly cherishes the American dream and quality, air, soil and water quality, should become a hunter, a fisherman and a trapper and put hands on value to these precious renewable resources, that will determine the productivity of our quality...
BEGALA: Hasn't Bush let you and me and our fellow hunters down with his...?
NUGENT: Bush is my quail hunting buddy.
BEGALA: Yes, right. Until the habitat gets ruined. His private reserve is okay, but for the rest of us who are just walking around folk.
CARLSON: Look, you're, I can see, having trouble since eating something that Paul made.
NUGENT: Yes, it's great. I love it.
CARLSON: And I want to get right down to it.
NUGENT: Have you had this tested?
CARLSON: I haven't. But you know what? You will amazed to know, Ted, that in Paul's book -- Paul has a new book called "Buck Up, Suck Up," there are also recipes. I've read Paul's book. I've read your book. I want to put on the screen just for illustrative purposes here. These are some recipes from Paul's book. Paul Begala's Boys' French Toast. Mom's Friday's Chicken Salad.
And your recipes from your book from "Kill It and Grill It." Here they are. Wild boar chops, big game meat cakes. Now I'm wondering, I mean, doesn't that just kind of say it all?
NUGENT: Well, Paul is a Grateful Dead fan. So we won't hold that against him.
BEGALA: Actually, I'm not. I'm a country music fan. But I don't...
NUGENT: That's even worse.
BEGALA: ...mind...
NUGENT: Those boys have got to learn how to play guitar.
BEGALA: Oh, right.
CARLSON: Let me confront you. NUGENT: You know, I played country and western once. I broke this hand, all week, country and western.
BEGALA: Who's got contempt for middle America, the man who's attacking country music. God's own music.
NUGENT: Those are my blood -- country and western guys only dislike me because I can outshoot them.
CARLSON: Well, speaking -- look, on your web site, you have a part, I was reading it today, where you recommend taking your four- year-old deer hunting. I've got kids. I hunt. And I intend to take them. But four-years old, that's kind of young to see a deer, you know, field dressed, gutted and field dressed. Don't you think that's kind of traumatic?
NUGENT: Well, you make that decision for your children. But every year, I go to Texas, and Mississippi and Louisiana, where there's been a long tradition of young children, as young as four, going out with their fathers and mothers, having a quality experience. And there's never been an accident. You've never seen a report of four or five or six-year old. My daughter, Sasha, shot her first buck when she was seven-years old. And we called her Lee Harvey Nugent because she was such a good shot. Can I say that?
BEGALA: I wish you hadn't.
NUGENT: But she's a great marksman. And the discipline that goes into that marksmanship is never too young to teach a child discipline, I think.
CARLSON: And she wasn't traumatized by seeing the animal dressed?
NUGENT: Traumatized? She gutted that bugger, man. She loved it. No, she knows that's where food comes from. And it's the purest food known to man. And she appreciates that. So she takes that deep into her heart.
BEGALA: Well, so, let me switch back now to this question we just dodged over just a minute ago, which is on control. So the Brady bill, for example, we agreed that we should outlaw machine guns?
NUGENT: I think we should outlaw Brady.
BEGALA: The Brady bill, for example, just a few weeks ago, stopped a man who's an alleged member of the Hamas terrorist group from a gun in Oregon. Has it ever stopped you?
NUGENT: Yes.
BEGALA: How?
NUGENT: It's amazing. You know, Paul, I've been a sworn sheriff's deputy in the state of Michigan for 23 years. Yet the FBI's instant check is so inept, and so counterproductive, that I've been stopped from buying a gun for the last three years, buying my children Christmas presents. I had to wait an extra week because their records were incomplete.
BEGALA: You got to wait week for a refrigerator. I mean, I'm just I'm a gun owner.
NUGENT: Well, first of all, but I don't believe that statistic. I don't believe that statistic when you can go into their home countries and buy bazookas and land mines, I don't think he's going to come to America to buy a 30 ott (ph) 6. I think the whole premise of the Brady Bill, I've talked to law enforcement. I'm very proud to work with many of these great men and women of law enforcement. And the...
BEGALA: Who strongly supported the Brady Bill.
NUGENT: No, they did not.
BEGALA: Absolutely they did.
NUGENT: The administration.
BEGALA: Why they endorsed President Clinton.
NUGENT: The appointees probably supported it, but the real rank and file warriors of the street never supported Brady. The overwhelming population of law enforcement was against Brady because they saw it was counterproductive and an infringement on our second amendment rights.
BEGALA: Well, I disagree with that, but I agree with...
CARLSON: Ladies and gentleman, Ted Nugent.
BEGALA: I agree with you coming on the show.
NUGENT: My pleasure. Get a real buck.
BEGALA: Yes, I show you some real deer in south Texas, brother. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, Ted Nugent, the motor city madman.
One viewer has a suggestion on what to do, coming up, with Tucker's finger. Yes, we'll get that. And Tucker and I will stand in the bullseye as you get your chance to fire back at us. But next, round six, where Tucker and I will pull no punches. And the subject, might there be a knockout new candidate for higher office? Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back. 2002 might be forever remembered as the year Halloween came in May. How else would you explain "The New York Daily News" item about Democratic power brokers pushing the idea of Hillary Clinton for the vice presidential slot on party's 2004 ticket. Yes, we know a spokesman for the senator has tried to shoot down the story, but imagine the possibilities. Gephardt-Clinton, Edwards- Clinton, Sharpton-Hillary 2004. Happy Halloween.
Actually more like Merry Christmas, Paul. In fact, the perfect, the perfect lineup would be Hillary for president, Al Gore for vice president. That would be the dream ticket. I would vote for it just out of perversity.
BEGALA: Well, God knows you're a perverse man. But you know, last week, I was making fun of Bush when he said something. You know, you mock what you fear. well, back at you, pal. The reason the Republicans are screaming like a pig stuck under a gate is because -- will you let me finish?
CARLSON: I shall.
BEGALA: The reason Republicans are screaming is because they know that Hillary would beat them like a bad piece of meat. She'd beat them like a red headed stepchild. But you know, she has promised the people of New York that she will be a senator for six years. And she's going to keep her promise.
CARLSON: Well, first of all...
BEGALA: Unlike Bush who ran for president two years into his second term.
CARLSON: Paul, as you know, no politician has ever admitted considering accepting the vice presidential nomination. They keep denying it until the day they accept it. That's just par for the course. Their denials mean nothing. But the idea of Hillary Clinton, who hasn't even paid millions of dollars in legal bills, this is just one of the many stories...
BEGALA: She's not running.
CARLSON: She actually hasn't paid them yet.
BEGALA: She's not running.
CARLSON: She's never given a real interview, no holds barred interview on television. And I doubt she ever would. But if she ever did, I'll tell you, I would be there. I'd put a Hillary bumper sticker on my car. I'd put a sign in my yard. I'd wear her shirt on this show. I'd jump up and down. I'd go to all her rallies. I would be thrilled. She would be the best candidate ever to run essentially helping the Republicans in history.
BEGALA: And you would go to the White House. Once she would elected, I would allow you -- I would bring you as my date to one of those White House parties.
CARLSON: Can you imagine?
BEGALA: And it would be one of the most -- you could actually kiss her ring.
CARLSON: It would be the most uptight, non-smoking, no drinking tension environment you can imagine.
BEGALA: The difference is I know Hillary and you don't. She's a terrific person. If she ever wanted to, she would run and she would win.
CARLSON: Oh, I'm sure she would. Tomorrow night, speaking of fantasy, you won't want to miss this, a CROSSFIRE exclusive with a man of his convictions, convicted candidate James Traficant of Ohio.
But next, fire back complete with a lesson in manners and almost a proposal. Tantalizing. Join us, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back do CROSSFIRE. Time now for fire back, that moment in the show when you get to take over.
Let's begin with our e-mails. Open up the first e-mail from Kenny Tokusado from Gardena, California. "Paul, I'd like to thank you for having the backbone to speak for the liberal majority. There aren't many left wingers out there who can take a barrage of conservative hogwash and dish it right back in their faces." Kenny, thank you very much. Right back in our face, Tucker.
CARLSON: Well, it's kind of touching. And here, speaking of liberals from James Fisher in Austin, Texas. If Tucker should ever shake his finger in my face, I'd grab it and give it a twist. That's a polite grip. And you know what? That sounds like he's throwing down the gauntlet. And I challenge you, James Fisher, to dueling fingers at five paces. I dare you.
BEGALA: Then here's -- "I'm an 86-year-old grandmother enjoying your new format, but I have to ask did your mothers never teach you that it's rude to interrupt when someone is speaking?
CARLSON: Nope.
BEGALA: Well, yes, mine did, but it didn't take. "Tucker is a cutie and sometimes I agree with him." Well, you're half right, lady. "Paul is intelligent and fair. And if I were about 50 years younger, and he was available, boy could I go for him." From Sal in Daytona Beach. Sal, babe.
CARLSON: You know what? It's an affectionate group, those Democrats. And now to the audience. Yes, sir?
BRUCE MCPHERSON: Bruce McPherson from Burlington, Vermont. I'd like to return to the debate about President Carter going to Cuba and point out that American tourists are visiting Cuba in droves. Nonetheless, the United States foreign policy criminalizes spending United States dollars in Cuba. Don't you think that the United States people are ahead of the curve on this issue? And shouldn't the policy be relaxed so that people in this audience could visit Cuba if they had the opportunity to do so?
CARLSON: Well, the short answer is no, but the key issue difference here is that the tourists visiting Cuba are not former presidents. And a former president can never, especially when travels abroad, act as a private citizen. He always carries with him the weight and to some extent, the authority of the presidency. Certainly in the eyes of the people in those foreign countries.
BEGALA: And yet, Secretary Eagleburger, a Republican, sat here in between insulting President Carter, actually adopted Carter's position, saying that Americans should be free to go there.
CARLSON: You may not have noticed that. Yes?
BRET KERWIN: Hi, my name's Bret Kerwin from Washington at Lee University in Lexington, Virginia. And this past weekend, when he was in Columbus with President Bush, Senator Voinovich threatened that the Republicans would shut down the senate if judicial nominees weren't confirmed. Don't you think it's time that Senator Leahy got going and confirmed some of these nominees?
BEGALA: Well, they already shut down the government in 1995. It didn't do them any good. Let them shut down the senate. That's fine with me. It'll stop that right wing Bush agenda from being enacted.
CARLSON: But you know, the difference I guess, and it's true that Clinton did win that battle, thanks to the demagoguery of some people who worked for him at the time. But Paul Begala is now here on CROSSFIRE, so there's no one to spin the Democratic side, sadly.
BEGALA: No, the whole thing though, Tucker. They put up these right wing kooks, these knuckle dragging thugs.
CARLSON: These right wing...
BEGALA: And then when moderate senators want to actually advise and consent, the way...
CARLSON: That is outrageous name-calling and you know it.
BEGALA: It's only the beginning of the name-calling, Tucker.
CARLSON: It's unfair and I hope you'll take it back on tomorrow night's show.
BEGALA: Never happen. From the left, I'm Paul Begala, good night for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE with James Traficant. So please be there.
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