Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Crossfire
Interview with Jerry Springer, Ted Nugent; James Traficant
Aired May 27, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE, on the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the "Crossfire" tonight, he helped put the trash in trash TV, but are you ready for his serious side? We're throwing opinions around with Jerry Springer.
He was a mainstay on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES TRAFICANT (D), OHIO: Beam me up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: But his days in Congress may be over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAFICANT: Not anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: In the "Crossfire", Congressman and convicted felon James Traficant.
He rocks. He rolls. He locks. He loads. Tonight on our stage, Ted Nugent singing the praises of the Second Amendment.
It's all tonight in the "Crossfire".
From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Good evening and welcome to one of the most extraordinary CROSSFIRE programs ever produced. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hear from some of our favorite guests all on the same night. Yes it's true, Jerry Springer, James Traficant and Ted Nugent all in the same hour. First up, nobody does trash television better than Jerry Springer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAUL BEGALA, HOST: Need to caution our audience, no brawling, no face slapping, no hair pulling, no shocking admissions you're a transvestite vegetarian and no shotgun weddings with your mother-in- law are going to be tolerated in this segment, at least not on CROSSFIRE, but if that's what you're into, our next guest might be interested in you. He is the king of trash TV, Jerry Springer joins us from Chicago. Give him a warm welcome ladies and gentlemen.
CARLSON: Jerry Springer, thanks for joining us.
JERRY SPRINGER, TV TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
CARLSON: They call you -- they call you the king of Trash TV. I'm not sure how many members of our audience watch your program, in case they don't, let's run through what's you're doing this week. Monday you did I'm pimping my daughter; Tuesday you did Jerry needs to tell her finance she's bisexual, he said no problem, I'll marry both of you. Today you did Siamese twins, one of whom is a singer; and tomorrow you do transsexuals attack.
Now this is obviously poisoning America ...
SPRINGER: Which one -- which one didn't you like?
CARLSON: I actually -- I don't know if I'd watch any of them, but I'm pretty sure that they're bad for the country. So my question is how much do you make off this? What's your salary from the show? I'm just wondering what the benefit is here.
SPRINGER: Oh I do handsomely. Thank you.
CARLSON: But be specific, the issue ...
SPRINGER: Well why would I tell you? want a loan?
CARLSON: Well you're Jerry Springer, come on.
SPRINGER: You want some money? Well talk to me after the show, I'll help you out, no problem. No the -- our show, let's face it, it's the stupidest show on television. I admit that. It is, but it's about people that are outrageous, people that over the top, people that are dysfunctional or people that are really out of the ordinary.
You tell me one of those titles where that doesn't fit that category. My job is to show things that are outrageous. I would tell you that every one of those shows demonstrates people that are either outrageous or in very unfortunate circumstances. I think I've done my job.
BEGALA: In fact, Jerry, most of those unfortunate circumstances revolve around sex. I mean Tucker just read all the titles for this week and we could go on and on. I'm just curious, you broadcast in the middle of the day ...
SPRINGER: Does that make you nervous?
BEGALA: ... to middle America, is America that sex obsessed? Are we a nation of ken (ph) stars? SPRINGER: Duh, yes, I think it is. But you know what, sure it is. People are very interested in those issues, apparently, otherwise the show wouldn't be on the air. My -- you know, when I was doing the news, my job was to report on what you said before, on things like war, on murders, on violations of the law, on corruption. Now -- that was my job then -- now my job is to report on dysfunctional behavior. I'll tell you again, everything we put on our show is basically dysfunctional or out of the ordinary. I don't know what the argument is. Of course it is, that's the ...
CARLSON: Well ...
SPRINGER: ... point of the show.
CARLSON: ... then you've got an interesting vantage point here then. You've been in the straight news and then you've been in the sideshow business.
SPRINGER: Right.
CARLSON: Is it true - is it axiomatic that the more vulgar, the more transvestites, the better the ratings. Is that the way it works?
SPRINGER: No because otherwise Oprah wouldn't have these great ratings. She - you know Oprah's the - Oprah's the best there is hands down, and you're telling me she has these subjects on her show? I don't think so at all. No, there's no argument to that. Hardly any show is as silly and stupid as mine is, and yet they're all on the air. So no I don't think you can make that argument at all.
BEGALA: And we're doing the best we can to keep up with you, Jerry, but let me ask you about -- we're having an argument, I don't know if you heard in the last segment, about CBS's decision to ...
SPRINGER: Right.
BEGALA: ... air part of that Daniel Pearl tape. They did stop the tape before Pearl was murdered, but they did show him being badgered. I wondered where is the line for you? Would have you gone all the way to show the murder itself or what would you - where would you draw the line on something like that?
SPRINGER: No, I - well one, I think what it really shows, you know, not to pick a fight, but it's to show the hypocrisy of straight news. I mean, they come at you and they lower their voices and they put on a tie so that you think they're serious and they talk about we're telling you what you need to show. Well the truth of the matter is they showed that because it was great ratings and it got everyone else talking about it.
That's why they did it. They could have told the story without showing that tape, without hurting the family. I would argue that news exploits people and we don't. Now let me just tell you why. On our show, no matter how ridiculous it is, it's all voluntary. Whoever comes on the show desperately wants to be on. They talk about what they want to talk about, and they don't talk about or deal with issues they don't want to.
But on the news, no one went to this family and said is it OK - yes, good -- no one went to that family and said -- to the Pearl family and said is it OK if we show these pictures or you know will this hurt you? Will this make you feel bad? Hell, no, CBS said oh, this is great. People will love it. This is wonderful. You could have told the story without showing those pictures.
CARLSON: Well ...
SPRINGER: The news is hypocritical.
CARLSON: That's sort of a cop out on your part, though. I mean your argument appears to be ...
SPRINGER: I didn't put the tape on.
(CROSSTALK)
SPRINGER: What are you talking about me.
CARLSON: But your argument appears to be look, my audience, you know they're compulsive exhibitionists, so I give them a forum, but it's your TV show. You're allowing, aiding and abetting the basement of these people and I - and I'm wondering ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... where it is. If someone called you - Jerry Springer, if someone called you and said, you know I want to kill myself on your show, would you - would you let them?
SPRINGER: Well no, of course not, but that's ...
CARLSON: Why?
SPRINGER: ... a crime. Well no wait, well wait a second. Now that's an absurd argument. No one is suggesting ever that someone would say you would be aiding and abetting a murder if you did that.
(CROSSTALK)
SPRINGER: No the issue is ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Didn't "60 MINUTES", didn't CBS, somebody broadcast Dr. Kevorkian suicide. Didn't somebody - I hate to be imputing CBS, if they didn't do it, but didn't some network broadcast one of those Kevorkian suicides?
SPRINGER: I'm not suggesting that's a good idea.
BEGALA: I'm not either ...
SPRINGER: I ... (CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: But I mean -- what I'm saying is you're right about the hypocrisy.
SPRINGER: It's incredibly - well I'm agreeing with you. Yes I think the news is terribly hypocritical, but there is a difference between running a story against people's wishes and running a story -- and having a show where people choose to come on to talk about what they want. When Princess Diana, three or four years ago, well more, five years ago, went on national -- international television and talked about how she had been unfaithful in her marriage, how she had bulimia, how she had cheated in her marriage and had contemplated suicide.
No one said she shouldn't be on television. We said that was great. Why? Because she was beautiful. She had class. She spoke with the Queen's English. That's exactly the stories that -- the people on my show talk about.
BEGALA: And in fact, you know the queen ...
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: ... thrown at her, I think, to the Queen, just hurled that thrown across ...
CARLSON: Wait, but wait a second Jerry Springer, it's not all - I mean look, Princess Diana's bulimia or whatever is a little bit different than ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... people on your show who are sleeping with their mothers-in-law ...
(CROSSTALK)
SPRINGER: No. No. No. Wait.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm sorry.
SPRINGER: No. No. She's dead.
(CROSSTALK)
SPRINGER: She's dead. She cheated in her marriage, I'm sorry.
CARLSON: But not with her mother-in-law.
SPRINGER: No, no, she - yes - she -- Princess Diana was talking about how she cheated in her marriage. That's exactly what the people on our show talk about. CARLSON: No, but at some point don't you need to be the adult here and say look, you know, I don't -- you're hurting yourself by going on and talking about these intimate problems and as the adult, you know, as an attorney or former mayor or you know, as the adult here ...
SPRINGER: Why don't you say that to your guests?
CARLSON: ... I'm not going to let you.
SPRINGER: Why don't you say that to your guests ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Because none of them slept with their mothers-in-laws.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: That's why.
SPRINGER: ... hey Jerry, you're hurting yourself going on this show. You're looking like a fool. Get off the air. Why do you - you know you're not allowed in America to say excuse me, I don't think you're right for television. I don't approve of what you're saying. I don't approve of our lifestyle. I don't think this is in your best interest. You won't be on the show. What's that about?
No, if wealthy people, if rich people, if powerful people can be on television talking about their personal lives, and we love it. We have these shows every day or other people have these shows about celebrities talking about their private lives, writing books about who they slept with, their autobiographies, all that stuff.
Why do you get upset if people of low income do it, or people that don't speak the Queen's English? I mean it's OK, they - if they want to be on, let them be on. I wouldn't go on, perhaps you wouldn't go on, but if other people want to go on, this is America. Let them do it.
BEGALA: Absolutely. Hey if you hang on Jerry, we're going to take a quick break. Tucker may in fact apply to come on. You don't know. You know he's got a good story to tell.
CARLSON: That is an excellent point.
Coming up, the one-time boy mayor of Cincinnati talks politics.
And later an exclusive interview with the recently convicted Congressman James Traficant. Will he represent his constituents from jail? Will he make new friends behind bars? We'll ask him.
Plus, rock star and gun lover Ted Nugent tells Paul Begala why he's all wrong when it comes to gun control. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BEGALA: Once upon a time, none other than the very august (ph) Jeff Greenfield, prior to his CNN days wrote this. "I don't think Jerry Springer goes home and pulls the wings off of flies, but that's exactly what he does on his show". Tonight Jerry Springer is on our show from Chicago. Jerry, let me ask you, you know, Jeff Greenfield worked for Bobby Kennedy, and so did you. How did that happen, to come about? You began in politics as an aide to Bobby Kennedy?
SPRINGER: Well, he was way higher. I mean he was directly in contact with the - with the senator, so he was way above me, you know, and I was a kid just literally getting out of law school, and so -- but he's great. I mean I think he's wonderful. You know I disagree with his pulling the wings off the flies, but otherwise I think he's a very wise man.
CARLSON: Jerry, there's been talk, as you're well aware, of the former President Bill Clinton doing a talk show, sounds like it's not going to happen, but it was batted around. You know a lot about television. Do you think he's ...
SPRINGER: Yes.
CARLSON: ... the right flare? Would he succeed?
SPRINGER: Well if he would have - if he would have done a show about politics, I think it'd be wonderful. It'd be incredible. It'd be more powerful than anything we've had on television. I mean can you imagine him on television an hour a day talking about the issues of the day? It almost would be like a White House in exile. So, you know, every -- the administration wouldn't want to have to be dealing with him, but in fact they would have to, because he has this huge following. He'd be talking about the issues. You know, and then all of a sudden everyone in the media would be asking the president to respond to him.
CARLSON: You know, that is scarier ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: ... than attacking transvestites ...
SPRINGER: Yes.
CARLSON: ... I think.
SPRINGER: Yes. So I think it would be an incredibly powerful show. So, if he did it and did that, that would be fine. Obviously he's not going to do this other stuff, no.
BEGALA: Well you know I was one of the people, several, who advised Governor Clinton back in '92 ...
SPRINGER: Yes.
BEGALA: ... to go on the "Arsenio Hall Show" and talk about -- play the saxophone with my sunglasses on, but also talk about ... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a great decision.
BEGALA: ... and the riots. I'm wondering, though, what's the next step? You know a lot about politics. You've been the mayor of Cincinnati. Should you be hosting presidential candidates on your show?
SPRINGER: Well not on my show, because my show is about outrageousness. I mean it would disrespect any serious issue. If we have - you know when I first started the show we had Oliver North on and Jesse Jackson, and we dealt with serious political issues. But that was when I first started. We changed it and now we just do this outrageous show.
So I would never have serious political people on the show, because that would demean the issue. Our show is about craziness, I said. But to have a political show, would I love to do that? Of course, it'd be great. I'd love your job.
Carlson: Now Jerry, you were, as Paul said, and good luck fighting with Paul over the left. You were at one time the mayor of Cincinnati. You left in a cloud of scandal ...
SPRINGER: No, that's not true. No -- don't keep repeating something that isn't true.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: There was no prostitution scandal? I thought I'd read that.
SPRINGER: No, it was five years before I ever became mayor of Cincinnati - five years before I ever, so please don't say that.
CARLSON: Well nevertheless ...
SPRINGER: Everytime I'm on this show, someone keeps repeating it, you know.
CARLSON: Well I think we've made news tonight by correcting it.
SPRINGER: Yes.
CARLSON: Thank you for setting the record straight.
SPRINGER: OK.
CARLSON: You were an Ohio politician, you know something about scandal. What would you recommend for Congressman Jim Traficant whom we had on last night looking at prison. Can he rehabilitate himself?
SPRINGER: I don't know. Thank God I've never been to prison, never been close to going to prison. I have no idea. I mean, you know, I assume every human being can rehabilitate themselves. I would hope so, but I just don't know anything ...
BEGALA: Well I'm ...
SPRINGER: ... about it, yes.
BEGALA: But you certainly know TV, and I'm curious, just to get your assessment of the current crop of national politicians here in Washington. Play "Crossfire" host for a minute here Jerry.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Who's good and who's bad?
SPRINGER: I think most - I think most politicians are very honest, but most politicians want to do what's best for America, I think -- or their constituency. I really believe that, but they translate that to saying we'll I can do what's - I can serve the people best, so I'll do whatever I have to do to win.
And I think we're seeing a little bit of that with the president right now. I think the president desperately doesn't want to be in the same position his dad was in. He dreads the idea of a one-term presidency and being rejected. So I think he's starting to become more and more political, and as we get closer to 2004, all this business about let's unite America and move as one, it's going to become more and more and more partisan. That's what I think happens with most politicians. They have to win.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Speaking of 2004, I don't think, I hope you agree, it's too early for the Jerry Springer endorsement. You're a Democrat.
SPRINGER: Yes.
CARLSON: Who are you going to endorse? There's Joe Lieberman ...
SPRINGER: Well ...
CARLSON: ... John Edwards, John Kerry, Al Sharpton. Who are you going to vote for, do you think?
SPRINGER: I have no idea, but let me say this. I don't think it matters at this point who the Democratic candidate is of that group. They all seem very well qualified, because I think every presidential election is a referendum on the current administration, and so 2004 is going to be referendum on George Bush.
And it's going to be based on are we at war with Iraq and are bodies coming back? Or has he really won this war against terrorism? If there's another terrorist act, what is his response going to be? What's happening to the economy? I mean if we're not having any problems in terms of the Middle East, then it's going to be what's going on here at home? We're going to judge George Bush. If we're at war with Iraq and bodies are coming back, any Democrat will beat him. If we're not and things are going pretty well, no Democrat will beat him. So it just doesn't matter which one of the candidates it'll be. CARLSON: That sounds like an astute analysis. Jerry Springer, lawyer, politician, king of chair throwing on TV, and now CROSSFIRE guest. We appreciate you coming on with us.
SPRINGER: Sure.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: You know there usually isn't a lot of harmony here on CROSSFIRE, but we found a subject where we and our guest were almost singing from the same page. Rock star and gun nut Ted Nugent joins us and samples some Texas Democrat Tony Sanchez's homemade sausage, something you are not going to want to miss.
And the most outrageous congressman alive. The recently convicted Ohio Democrat James Traficant joins the "Crossfire".
But before we get to Ted Nugent, a special quote of the day, just for Memorial Day. Tragically the source of our quotation cannot be here to accept this countryman's praises. It's all coming up on CROSSFIRE.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: The holiday known as Memorial Day used to be called Decoration Day. It was first observed in 1868 when people decorated the graves of soldiers killed in the Civil War. It now pays tribute to all Americans killed in all wars, including Navy Petty Officer First Class Neil Roberts.
He died in Afghanistan last month, knocked out of a helicopter. He held off his enemies on the ground until finally they overwhelmed him, and he died in action. Roberts left behind a letter to his wife to be read in the event of his death. It contains our quote of the day.
"I loved being a SEAL. If I die doing something for the teams, then I died doing what made me happy. Very few people have the luxury of doing that."
BEGALA: We salute Petty Office Roberts.
CARLSON: We do, who died by himself on the top of a mountain in Afghanistan with none of his friends around. Someone to think about as you're hoisting a beer in your back lawn with your kids. I will.
BEGALA: Amen.
CARLSON: Amen.
Just ahead a CNN news alert about the day's top headlines and then we'll hear from a man of convictions, many of them. The always outrageous Congressman Jim Traficant. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CARLSON: Welcome back to our special Memorial Day edition of CROSSFIRE. Washington's politicians are safe back in their home districts getting reacquainted with their voters, but almost all of them will be back. One who almost certainly won't be back is Ohio Congressman Jim Traficant, persona an grata (ph) here in the Capitol ever since his 10 - count them 10, felony convictions last month. But before the holiday break, he joined us by a satellite from Youngstown, Ohio unavowed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Even on CROSSFIRE before a number of times, you were last on in February before your trial, when you came on that night, we asked you about your legal strategy and here's your description of it.
REP. JAMES TRAFICANT, (D), OHIO: I'm going to get in their face. I don't like them. I don't like what they've done to our country. I don't like how they scare people. I don't like how they intimidate people, judges appointed a life-term scared to death of these people. These bureaucrats run America and Congress better take America back to the American people. So I'm just the son of a truck driver and I'm going to try and kick their ass. That's candid as I can be.
CARLSON: Now Mr. Traficant, you acted as your own lawyer, of course, in that trial. And not to Monday morning quarterback here, but it seems sort of like you had a fool for a client or a lawyer. I mean, you were convicted.
TRAFICANT: Well, I'm the only American in history to ever have defeated the Justice Department in a Rico case pro se. And that was part of the vendetta obsession with the Justice Department. And quite frankly, no attorney would have done any different. I was basically convicted by a judge, prosecuted by a judge, and will be sentenced by a judge. And I think, you know, this doesn't help me. But to tell it like it is, we have a judicial aristocracy in America, that isn't really concerned about Congress. They're concerned about the FBI and IRS. The only way they can be impeached is to be investigated by them.
They had no eye witnesses, they had no fingerprints, they had no physical evidence, no wiretaps, no hidden microphones in six years, and went back 15 years, trying to find one cash expenditure and couldn't find it. And I was convicted on the testimony of felons or would-be felons without the corroboration of one IRS or FBI agent that took the stand because they know I'd impeach them.
So this is a most unusual case. And quite frankly, I'm not all that upset about it. And I think I'll go forward. I'll fight the hell out of them. And I will say this. I believe my outspokenness on China with a general in the Red Chinese Army, gave money to the Democratic National Committee should have been investigated. I think Reno did commit treason. I think that was part of the process that was involved here.
And second of all, I think it doesn't, you know, appeal to many people, but I was the number one target of American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee behind former President Bush and Secretary Baker in the early '90s.
CARLSON: Congressman Traficant.
TRAFICANT: And people are after me.
CARLSON: I believe that -- I think you're absolutely right, people are after you. Some of those people were in the prosecution. And part of the reason they were after you, apart from the fact you committed all these crimes was because you constantly...
TRAFICANT: Well, these alleged crimes.
CARLSON: ...well, actually, you've been convicted. So in fact, they're crimes. But look, you constantly...
TRAFICANT: No, they're not crimes. I have yet to be sentenced.
CARLSON: And I want to read you.
TRAFICANT: They have yet to be sentenced. Yes, I have threatened them.
CARLSON: Well, let me just -- one of your many threats was this -- one of your many characterizations of the prosecutions, you said "they have the testicles of an ant." Now you said that in public. That, I mean, that couldn't have made them any lighter on you. Don't you think it was a mistake to provoke the prosecution like that?
TRAFICANT: Actually, they didn't need a prosecutor in this case. Again, the judge denied me the opportunity to bring in seven tapes that would have impeached all their felon witnesses. Again, nine of my witnesses were subject under oath to testify outside the presence of the jury and were not allowed to testify. Some of these witnesses couldn't even identify the so-called places where they supposedly bribed me. It became a joke.
And let me tell you something. In the state of Ohio, you need a .10 blood alcohol content level to be convicted of a DUI. They offered no physical evidence whatsoever, and didn't even have an FBI or an IRS agent take the stand. Except for summary agents that testified, they did no investigation, just added on numbers that the government gave them. So this was an unusual case, most unusual, and it's not over. And they do have the testicles of an ant.
BEGALA: There is a report in "The Daily Business Journal in Ohio today that a special subcommittee of the House Ethics committee has sent you a statement, accusing you formally of wrongdoing, setting in motion the process to have you expelled from the House. First, are you going to fight expulsion from the House? And if so, how?
TRAFICANT: Well, number one, there's a process that goes into this Tucker or Paul, whoever the hell I'm speaking to here.
BEGALA: This is Paul.
TRAFICANT: Paul, but I know you're a big Clinton man. And I know that DNC covered up an awful lot of that money that came from China. And I predict that...
BEGALA: I'm just curious.
TRAFICANT: I predict that they will eventually attack America. Believe me when I tell you that.
BEGALA: Are you going to fight expulsion from the House, congressman?
TRAFICANT: Yes, I am going to fight it. And I have an opportunity to bring a defense. I think that the House members are very concerned. And I don't blame them. There's a lot of great members of Congress. But the truth of the matter is Congress has become an advisory board. The people who run America are the Treasury Department, the IRS, the FBI. And everybody's afraid to death of them. And I think in America that fears their government is not a good America for the future. And I think it's time to pass a flat 15 percent national sales tax, abolish the 16th Amendment, throw the IRS the hell out. It'll bring down costs, bring jobs back to America. Why should we be (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
BEGALA: Congressman, I want to come back to the question of your expulsion.
TRAFICANT: Yes, I know that's what you want to do, but I'm the guest.
BEGALA: And I understand you want to attack the Democratic party, but I want to read you a quote from a Republican, not a Democrat, James Sensenbrenner, nobody's idea of a liberal. He's a Republican.
TRAFICANT: He's a fine man.
BEGALA: And he's, of course, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Here's what he said about you. And I quote, "Felons belong in jail and not in Congress. If he will not voluntarily leave this House, our duty is to remove him." That's not just the Democrats. It seems both parties are repulsed by your conduct.
TRAFICANT: Well, I don't know if they're repulsed by my conduct. I think they should give me an opportunity to appeal. One of the jurors says most of those congressmen are crooked down there. And he unfortunately got cut. So I think that showed a predisposition.
Remember, there was no evidence, no physical evidence of corroboration of any spoken word. One of the witnesses was this third plea agreement, who's trying to get his brother back from Cuba, for crying out loud. I never seen anything more ridiculous in my life. And quite frankly, I think it's going to blow up in their face.
CARLSON: Well, Mr. Traficant, I think one of the things that bothered the jurors, certainly one of the things that bothered long time fans you had in Washington, and you had many, as you know, the nature of some of the crimes that you committed was different than what people imagined. It turned out that you were, in some cases, shafting or extorting the little guy, including your contractor, Anthony Bucci, who apparently did $13,000 of work for you. You refused to pay him. That's not the James Traficant that people thought they knew, the guy who helped the little man.
TRAFICANT: All right, Anthony Bucci had his third plea agreement was trying to make arrangements to bring his brother back from Cuba. And his own sister-in-law testified that he was a crook, and that the Bucci actually owed me money, and that he was lying.
Now look, I've had nine witnesses that weren't allowed to take the stand, but under oath, were questioned by the judge. I had seven tapes that were not admitted that would have abolished this whole case. And remember, they poisoned the jury pool by saying I was involved in a contract murder, that was never introduced into court, because that was a sham.
Then there was $150,000 barn. And then, I went ahead and met with the individual, who apologized because he lied and admitted it. And then, I taped his girlfriend the next day. They threw that out. This is the most unusual case in history.
CARLSON: But sir, your whole staff testified against you.
TRAFICANT: My whole staff didn't testify to anything. The one staff person that testified, we found out at the end of the trial, the FBI was holding a bribery charge over his head. That's why he had immunity. And this is a sham.
Now look, we're getting to the point where Rico has been brought down to three housewives, conspiring to buy Kellogg's or Wheaties on the grocery shelf. This is how crazy this case is. And I'm not out yet. Now I like Congress, I'm going to present my case to the ethics committee, but I have been the number one target of APAC for a number of years. And I would let some members know in Congress, who are targets, to be careful what you say.
Because see in America today, be careful what we say. We have a First Amendment, but watch how you say it. And I think that too many Americans fear their government.
BEGALA: Let me hold you accountable for something you said a moment ago. You said there was no physical evidence, when in fact, I've reviewed the record of the trial. There were six books filled with physical evidence. There were bills, there were invoices, there were checks...
TRAFICANT: Why don't you look at the tape?
BEGALA: There were bank records, there were deeds, there were burned envelopes...
TRAFICANT: Bank records.
BEGALA: ...there was cash, there memos, there was letters, there were handwritten notes.
TRAFICANT: No fingerprints.
BEGALA: The prosecution had you cold with six books.
TRAFICANT: Let me ask you something then. No fingerprints on 1,000 documents sent to the forensic lab. These include plastic bags, manila envelopes. Come on now, all of these people were either going to lose their freedom or lose their millions. One brother-in-law testified against a brother-in-law that he said he lied when he said he bribed Traficant because he'd go to jail for 10 years and lose $15 million. And he says that's all they wanted was Traficant.
I have tapes on every one of these. They will be submitted to the Ethics Committee. And this is going to be a barn burner. But I tell you what. I'm not going to be pushed around by a government that lives on fear. And the IRS literally testified if you pass the Traficant amendments in the '98 reform bill, that changes the burden of proof in a civil tax case, and requires judicial consent before they can seize our house, the element of fear will be removed from the tax code. And without fear, we won't collect taxes. Is this what America has become, Paul? Is this what it has become, Tucker? Fear your government?
CARLSON: I hope not.
TRAFICANT: Well, I certainly don't. And get your best hold.
CARLSON: Amen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARLSON: The amazing James Traficant. Next, proof that being in the crossfire can be dangerous to your health. Paul Begala goes gunning for guitarist Ted Nugent with a loaded plate of spicy venison. The almost tragic results when we return.
BEGALA: Also your chance to take a few verbal pot shots at us. Get ready to fire back, as CROSSFIRE continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Ted Nugent burst into American consciousness in the 1970s with a blazing guitar and a wild act that earned him the name "the motorcity wild man." Hits like "Cat Scratch Fever," "Wango Tango," and "Storm Trooping" may not be music to your ears, but Ted Nugent strikes a chord with countless Americans. That's because like many sensible people, he's an avid sportsman, hunter, and outspoken opponent of silly gun control laws.
And if you want to put your money where his mouth is, consider his new book, "Kill It and Grill It," a fantastic book. It features recipes for delicacies such as venison roast, sweet and sour antelope, and wild sheep shanks. Please welcome Ted Nugent to the CROSSFIRE stage.
BEGALA: Take a seat. We've got a little meat here for you.
Mr. Nugent?
TED NUGENT: Yes, sir?
BEGALA: First, congratulations on the book.
NUGENT: Is that cute or what?
BEGALA: It is outstanding. It really is. But let me -- I got a bone to pick with you.
NUGENT: I got a bone to clean with you.
BEGALA: All right, here we go. You start. The only thing I don't like about this book...
NUGENT: Yes?
BEGALA: Massive suck up to some guy named Sean Hannity. Now let me show you a couple picks up on the big screen.
NUGENT: Well, you know, he's a cute guy. He needs some grits.
BEGALA: Cute guy. He had never shot off anything bigger than his mouth. Let me show you some pictures here of a real hunter. That's me and my brother Dave and a deer we shot down in Tony Sanchez' ranch, my buddy down in Texas. There we go.
NUGENT: You're a real American, damn it.
BEGALA: And we also -- I'm a big bird...
NUGENT: How about you, Tucker? where's you (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
BEGALA: Bird hunters?
CARLSON: I was shooting this weekend, Ted.
NUGENT: Good work, I love a man who kills his own dinner.
BEGALA: And you know what? I don't -- this is South Dakota pheasant hunting, as you well know.
NUGENT: But I'm on a crusade, I'm going to take Sean, and I'm going to take Tucker, and I'm going to take everybody in America. And I'm going to teach them how to get the ultimate pure sustenance and be a steward of these precious resources. Stick with me.
BEGALA: I'm totally for it. I've got some venison sausage from deer that I have killed myself for you, straight out of the cookbook. But here's my quarrel.
NUGENT: Yes, what do you got going?
BEGALA: Is that I didn't need an AK-47 to bring down that big buck.
NUGENT: Yes, well, good for you.
BEGALA: And I didn't need an Uzi to shoot those pheasants. We have sensible gun laws in this country. And they harm law abiding citizens like you and I, do they?
NUGENT: What the hell does that have to do with anything?
BEGALA: We need a Brady bill, right? I mean, there's some people out there who think if you're for gun control, you're anti- hunting, you're anti guns.
NUGENT: You know, Paul, with all due respect, this is good venison, by the way. Good work.
BEGALA: Isn't that good?
NUGENT: I'll have you handle my carcass when I go.
BEGALA: I would be thrilled to.
NUGENT: What kind of idiot, with all due respect, would attempt to equate firearms utilized for sporting purposes and firearms used for other purposes? Our founding fathers had no question whatsoever that we had the right to get food. So they didn't even include that in the documents. Certainly they were concerned about self-defense.
And I know a bunch of guys in South Central Los Angeles that if it were not for semi-automatic weapons, which are exactly like these semi-automatic uzis and AK's that you're talking about, their establishments would have been burned down. And they could have been killed. But they needed weapons more than just a three-shot deer rifle to protect their neighborhoods. So I'm in support of the commonsense that sometimes firepower is needed for certain specific duties. And deer hunting and defense of property and self have no relationship whatsoever. Your turn.
CARLSON: That's a tough -- I have to say I'm not sure I can ask a question. I would agree with all of that. And I would say I'm a better shot than Paul.
BEGALA: So you think, no, you think teenagers should have access to these AK-47s, so they can slaughter each other on the street?
NUGENT: Well first of all, there are no AK-47s available.
BEGALA: Because we passed a law.
NUGENT: Fully automatic weapons have been banned since 1934.
BEGALA: That's gun control. And I'm for it, so are you, right?
NUGENT: And there are over 2.5 million lawfully owned fully automatic machine guns in private citizens' hands in this. Good venison.
BEGALA: Oh, God, now you're going to be choking on it. It is pretty spicy. We make it in south Texas.
CARLSON: Yes, while you choke to death, let me ask you a question. That's exactly right. I'll lay off the demagoguery, unlike Paul. But let me just...
NUGENT: You got to cut it smaller. I got to get you a knife, here.
CARLSON: Now I want to read you a quote from the NRA Convention last month. This was...
NUGENT: Which I was proud to be a part of. I'm on the board of directors.
CARLSON: Amen and good for you. It's a marvelous organization. But here's your quote. This was quoted in "The San Francisco Chronicle." This is your take on September 11. September 11 "was the culmination of a hippy mindset, that you shouldn't resist when confronted by evil. Give peace a chance is a laugh. The only way to peace is to eliminate those who would challenge peace." Now I agree with the second part, mostly, but the first part, September 11 was a culmination of a hippy mindset you shouldn't resist evil. The U.S. has resisted evil pretty vigorously, wouldn't you say?
NUGENT: No. We've had a policy in this country. In fact, under the Clinton administration, it's been documented that we know where Osama was on numerous occasions. And we know the documented threats to destroy America, to destroy American's lives. And we did nothing. And you're talking about Jimmy Carter, who embarrassed America by allowing a bunch of hippy college kids to take American citizens hostage for over two years. And he did nothing.
I'm just a guitar player, and I could have fixed that. These are the kinds of give peace a chance nonsense that I believe has sent a message around the globe that, yes, you can bless with America because we'll tolerate your evil. We'll tolerate your crime. And I think it's time to stand up and say we won't be tolerant to evil or dangerous conditions. And those that perpetrate them should be neutralized and eliminated.
CARLSON: But at the same time, don't you think that the very same politicians you're talking about who tolerate this sort of thing, are the same ones who have total loathing and contempt for you and people like you, people who bring knives on to sets and eat venison sausage. People who own guns. People like -- no, no, but culturally, you have nothing in common. And they have contempt for you. Why is that?
NUGENT: Because I turned down their dope. And I turned down their stupid trends. And the hippies always hated me, because they were preaching peace and love and I was loading a .44 magnum. All the people criticized me for being a gun lover, they're all dead. They puked and died. That's not a party where I come from. A party where I come from is a family having venison...
BEGALA: Geez, I've choked him. Amen, but not choking on it. You got to admit.
All right, let me actually, take a minute to drink and I'm going to read...
CARLSON: This is beef.
BEGALA: Oh, no, certainly not. A quote out of your book though, where you talk about habitat, which is really important. This is conservation.
NUGENT: Primary.
BEGALA: Primary Habitat for Wildlife, right? "Even the TV personality, Steve Irwin, you write in the book, the crocodile hunter has said that Habitat destruction is the most important issue facing his home country of Australia as well as America in the world. Those who walk on the wild side know this truth." Wouldn't you be more comfortable sleeping at night, knowing you had Democrats running things, who protect habitat. George W. Bush, who is a hunter, has allowed corporate America to pave over all this habitat, mining in our national parks, logging in our national forests, decapitating mountains.
NUGENT: You and me, pal, we're going to work together to save swamps. All right?
BEGALA: All right, they're important habitat. You have to explain to these workers...
NUGENT: There's a common ground.
BEGALA: Robber barons is why we need habitat.
NUGENT: But you know, the organizations that have saved millions of acres, Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, these are a cross-section of America...
BEGALA: Absolutely.
NUGENT: ...from every imaginable social stratum. So I think it's a common ground that we need to reach out. And everybody who wants to save wild ground, it's not about hunting opportunities. It's about the source of our air, soil, and water quality. So I think anybody who truly cherishes the American dream and quality, air, soil and water quality, should become a hunter, a fisherman and a trapper and put hands on value to these precious renewable resources, that will determine the productivity of our quality...
BEGALA: Hasn't Bush let you and me and our fellow hunters down with his...?
NUGENT: Bush is my quail hunting buddy.
BEGALA: Yes, right. Until the habitat gets ruined. His private reserve is okay, but for the rest of us who are just walking around folk. CARLSON: Look, you're, I can see, having trouble since eating something that Paul made.
NUGENT: Yes, it's great. I love it.
CARLSON: And I want to get right down to it.
NUGENT: Have you had this tested?
CARLSON: I haven't. But you know what? You will amazed to know, Ted, that in Paul's book -- Paul has a new book called "Buck Up, Suck Up," there are also recipes. I've read Paul's book. I've read your book. I want to put on the screen just for illustrative purposes here. These are some recipes from Paul's book. Paul Begala's Boys' French Toast. Mom's Friday's Chicken Salad.
And your recipes from your book from "Kill It and Grill It." Here they are. Wild boar chops, big game meat cakes. Now I'm wondering, I mean, doesn't that just kind of say it all?
NUGENT: Well, Paul is a Grateful Dead fan. So we won't hold that against him.
BEGALA: Actually, I'm not. I'm a country music fan. But I don't...
NUGENT: That's even worse.
BEGALA: ...mind...
NUGENT: Those boys have got to learn how to play guitar.
BEGALA: Oh, right.
CARLSON: Let me confront you.
NUGENT: You know, I played country and western once. I broke this hand, all week, country and western.
BEGALA: Who's got contempt for middle America, the man who's attacking country music. God's own music.
NUGENT: Those are my blood -- country and western guys only dislike me because I can outshoot them.
CARLSON: Well, speaking -- look, on your web site, you have a part, I was reading it today, where you recommend taking your four- year-old deer hunting. I've got kids. I hunt. And I intend to take them. But four-years old, that's kind of young to see a deer, you know, field dressed, gutted and field dressed. Don't you think that's kind of traumatic?
NUGENT: Well, you make that decision for your children. But every year, I go to Texas, and Mississippi and Louisiana, where there's been a long tradition of young children, as young as four, going out with their fathers and mothers, having a quality experience. And there's never been an accident. You've never seen a report of four or five or six-year old. My daughter, Sasha, shot her first buck when she was seven-years old. And we called her Lee Harvey Nugent because she was such a good shot. Can I say that?
BEGALA: I wish you hadn't.
NUGENT: But she's a great marksman. And the discipline that goes into that marksmanship is never too young to teach a child discipline, I think.
CARLSON: And she wasn't traumatized by seeing the animal dressed?
NUGENT: Traumatized? She gutted that burger, man. She loved it. No, she knows that's where food comes from. And it's the purest food known to man. And she appreciates that. So she takes that deep into her heart.
BEGALA: Well, so, let me switch back now to this question we just dodged over just a minute ago, which is on control. So the Brady bill, for example, we agreed that we should outlaw machine guns?
NUGENT: I think we should outlaw Brady.
BEGALA: The Brady bill, for example, just a few weeks ago, stopped a man who's an alleged member of the Hamas terrorist group from a gun in Oregon. Has it ever stopped you?
NUGENT: Yes.
BEGALA: How?
NUGENT: It's amazing. You know, Paul, I've been a sworn sheriff's deputy in the state of Michigan for 23 years. Yet the FBI's instant check is so inept, and so counterproductive, that I've been stopped from buying a gun for the last three years, buying my children Christmas presents. I had to wait an extra week because their records were incomplete.
BEGALA: You got to wait week for a refrigerator. I mean, I'm just I'm a gun owner.
NUGENT: Well, first of all, but I don't believe that statistic. I don't believe that statistic when you can go into their home countries and buy bazookas and land mines, I don't think he's going to come to America to buy a 30 ott (ph) 6. I think the whole premise of the Brady Bill, I've talked to law enforcement. I'm very proud to work with many of these great men and women of law enforcement. And the...
BEGALA: Who strongly supported the Brady Bill.
NUGENT: No, they did not.
BEGALA: Absolutely they did.
NUGENT: The administration.
BEGALA: Why they endorsed President Clinton.
NUGENT: The appointees probably supported it, but the real rank and file warriors of the street never supported Brady. The overwhelming population of law enforcement was against Brady because they saw it was counterproductive and an infringement on our second amendment rights.
BEGALA: Well, I disagree with that, but I agree with...
CARLSON: Ladies and gentleman, Ted Nugent.
BEGALA: I agree with you coming on the show.
NUGENT: My pleasure. Get a real buck.
BEGALA: Yes, I show you some real deer in south Texas, brother. Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, Ted Nugent, the motor city madman.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEGALA: Ted Nugent's stint in the crossfire inspired one of the poets in our vast audience. Stay with us for a fireback in rhyme.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEGALA: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Ready, aim, fireback. Let's go to the e-mail bag. Our first is from Terry McCarthy, Port Orchard, Washington. "Watching Traficant is like watching a crazy militia guy -- he is certifiably nuts. My only question is to people of Ohio and his district -- whatever would compel a voter to vote for someone who is obviously insane?
CARLSON: The very question I posed to Perot voters many years ago.
And next up, James T. Delaware from Hemet, California. "TRAFICANT FOR PRESIDNET!!! We need more people who will stand up against the system that looks out only for itself and not for the people." And it may take a convicted felon to do that.
BEGALA: There we go.
CARLSON: Yes.
BEGALA: Aaron Listman of Chicago, Illinois writes, "You ought to be ashamed to feature Jerry Springer on Crossfire. This is a man who has contributed greatly to the degradation of media. Don't you feel any sense of responsibility to the public as a news organization?" Aaron Listman, we have not yet begun to degrade the media.
CARLSON: Amen.
BEGALA: Believe me - no, come on have a little fun. That guy had some interesting thoughts, too.
CARLSON: Exactly. "I thought Ted Nugent was intelligent, articulate and entertaining. I believe that his open and honest views on gun control, the environment, and terrorism are important for American citizens to hear. I think you should consider replacing Paul Begala with him immediately," said Tom Lawson.
Tom, you know, we've tried, but unfortunately, Ted Nugent is in his deer stand and not reachable right now.
BEGALA: At least I can eat venison without getting the vapors and faint.
CARLSON: That is a good point.
BEGALA: Mr. Tough Guy. Don Wheeler writes, "What an idiot Nugent is. He should move in Ozzy." Wow.
CARLSON: That's not very nice.
"Ted Nugent advocates Americans buying guns and hunting for food on weekends, calls himself Gonzo, and now has declared 9-11 the fault of the "dead" hippies of the sixties. Could the Republicans have their man for 2004?" Joyce Basil, Des Plaines, Illinois.
BEGALA: There you go.
CARLSON: I hope so, Joyce.
BEGALA: Exactly, exactly right. From the left, I'm Paul Begala. Good-night for CROSSFIRE.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow night for another edition of CROSSFIRE. Happy Memorial Day.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
