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CNN Crossfire
Can Rumsfeld Help Ease Tensions Between India, Pakistan?; Was Bush's European Trip a Success?
Aired May 30, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight, there are hundreds of thousands of soldiers on each side and nuclear weapons too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: There's no question that we live in a -- in a dangerous and untidy world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Can he help clean things up between India and Pakistan?
He came. He saw. He signed on the dotted line. So why didn't he conquer his critics?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The only thing I know to do is to speak my mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, how was the trip, really?
Ahead on CROSSFIRE.
From the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.
JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tonight we're looking back at President Bush's trip to Europe. How did he do? But first, with friends like these, who needs enemies?
India and Pakistan have decent relations with the U.S., but they also have nuclear weapons, huge armies and a big grudge against with each other. They're threatening to go to war over a place called Kashmir. It's right along their common border. Both countries claim it and each one is doing some pretty serious saber rattling.
Now a nuclear war is a pretty bad idea any time, but even short of that, Pakistan is also making noise about moving troops away from its border with Afghanistan to beef up the army that's facing India. The al Qaeda boys hoping to sneak out of Afghanistan would sure love that.
So for a whole bunch of reasons, the Bush administration is getting more and more involved. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld heads to India and Pakistan next week to try and talk sense into these guys, and we're talking mission impossible.
Stepping into the CROSSFIRE is Charles Wilson, a former Democratic congressman from Texas. He now (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for Pakistan and our New York viewer is New Jersey Democratic Congressman Frank Pallone. He's co-founder of the congressional caucus on India and India Americans.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Congressman Pallone, you are a great defender of the Indian government. I want to ask you to defend something that seems a little indefensible on its face, and that is the question of the report tonight that India is positioning missiles against Pakistan because of this dispute over Kashmir, pinning warheads on them. Now if they fire them, there's no way Pakistan will know that's a nuclear warhead, and they could respond with nuclear weapons themselves. Isn't India playing a dangerous game of roulette with a -- with a piece of the world?
REP. FRANK PALLONE (D), NEW JERSEY: I don't think that you should see it in terms of which side is to blame or which side is, you know, saber rattling. I think there are enough men and weapons on both sides. I think the key here, and this is what president Bush essentially said today, is that we need to calm the two countries down, and we need to have them talk to each other again. That's the key.
I don't think it does any good to discuss, you know, who's rattling sabers, who's got weapons. They have ample weaponry and people on both sides of the border are ready to fight. But our goal in the United States has to be to make sure that we can calm them down and get them talking again. I was very impressed when President Bush said today that the purpose of sending Rumsfeld and others is to have the two countries talk directly with each other.
NOVAK: Well, congressman, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the saber rattling is so dangerous, because these aren't sabers. These are -- these are nuclear bombs, and I'd like you to listen to something that President Musharraf of Pakistan said, and you tell me whether you think its saber rattling or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: I think all that I can do is to give my own assurance that we will try to avoid conflict. It will be my utmost endeavor to avoid conflict, and I've been saying that all along, that conflict will only take place here if it is initiated by India. We will not be the initiators. This is my guarantee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: He guarantees that Pakistan won't take the first shot. That's not saber rattling, is it?
PALLONE: The problem, though, Robert, is that Pakistan continues to send these militants, you know terrorists essentially into India, both in India proper and Kashmir, and they kill innocent women and children. And so, he can say he's not taking the first shot, but he's the one that's essentially causing the tension by encouraging terrorism.
Now understand, what the president has said, what President Bush has said, and I give him a loft of credit for it. He said that what has to be done here is the President Musharraf has to stop supporting the infiltration of Pakistanis into Kashmir and into India that are basically killing people and causing terrorism.
Musharraf is not denouncing violence as a means to an end. You know we're in a new world now where terrorism is not allowed. And the president has said to Musharraf over and over again you've got to stop this. We want you to stop supporting these terrorists. If he does that, there won't be a problem anymore.
It's not a question of, you know again of which side to take, but I just think that President Bush has made it quite clear that if Musharraf stops encouraging these terrorists, then there wouldn't be a problem. But right now the main thing we have to do in the United States is to get these two sides talking again, sitting down, talking.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: That's the idea. Let me pass up to congressman, former congressman, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I should say. Let me put up a quote by George Fernandes, the Defense Minister of India and see what he had to say about these terrorists. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE FERNANDES, INDIA DEFENSE MINISTER: They're not al Qaeda, I guess call them terrorists. They are there in Pakistan. This is the intelligence information and our position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, congressman, we're sitting here, we're looking at a democratically elected governor in India, as we have a democratically elected governor in Israel. We're looking at terrorists that are -- that are starting this, as the Israelis would say to Palestinians are terrorists. Tell us what's the difference between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, where you had a democracy fighting terrorism and the Indian-Pakistani conflict where it looks like you have a democracy fighting terrorism of a totalitarian state also.
CHARLIE WILSON, FMR. U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I didn't really come to try to settle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict tonight. I think in the Indian situation, though, you have to realize that there are 10 million people in Kashmir who do not want to be governed by India, so you -- and you have five or 600,000 Indian soldiers suppressing them, enslaving them.
In 1948 when Pakistan and India were divided into two countries, it was in the Mount Baatan mandate that there would be an election. It happened that there was a Hindu maharaja who refused to hold the election. Ever since then, India has refused to hold the election. Now that doesn't sound like too much of a democracy to me. And they could hold the election and let the Kashmiris decide whether they want to be Pakistanis, whether they want to be Indians, or whether they want to be independent, which in my opinion ...
CARVILLE: It does seem that the parallels between Israeli- Palestinian conflict and the Indian-Palestinian -- Pakistani, there's some parallels there.
WILSON: I'm not going to let you draw me into that ...
CARVILLE: All right ...
WILSON: James, but ...
CARVILLE: I don't think you'd want to get drawn there, because the analogies ...
WILSON: No, no, no, no ...
(CROSSTALK)
WILSON: It's silly, but the point is that when people are held against their will, and perhaps you can draw a parallel that -- the attack on the United States 9/11 was a completely different situation from these. I think these are being used -- I think 9/11 is being used as an excuse in some cases, particularly India and Pakistan, particularly Kashmir, because the United States was not occupying any of these countries by force.
Now, India is occupying Kashmir by force. Many, most of the so- called terrorists or whatever you want to call them, many of the people who are fighting them are Kashmiris ...
(CROSSTALK)
WILSON: They're indigent Kashmiris that are doing the fighting.
CARVILLE: Let's get -- Congressman Pallone, you just said that India is occupying it by force, (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Give the man a chance to respond.
PALLONE: James, the issue here isn't the status of Kashmir and who's right or wrong on Kashmir. The problem here, and this is why the Israeli analogy you made is so accurate -- after September 11 we said that violence against innocent civilians is not a legitimate means to an end. It's not here at the World Trade Center. It's not by the Palestinians against the Israelis, killing innocent children, and it's not by the Pakistanis letting their citizens go into India and Kashmir and killing innocent civilians, you know women and children.
(CROSSTALK)
PALLONE: That's the problem.
NOVAK: Congressman Pallone, you said something that was -- that was very provocative. You said that Musharraf is sending activists, killers, across the border to kill Indians in Kashmir. These -- first place, do you have any evidence that the Pakistani government is orchestrating that? And secondly, the U.S. Intelligence says these are al Qaeda people, and that they are people who have been infiltrated back from Afghanistan. Isn't the danger that the al Qaeda is really provoking a possible nuclear war? You can't say that Musharraf is promoting this, can you?
PALLONE: There is no question that Musharraf is encouraging and providing support for the people these Pakistani infiltrators that are going into Kashmir. Jack Straw, you know, the foreign minister from England, who was in India and Pakistan today said that the president -- President Bush has essentially said the same thing. Now, whether he's dividing direct support ...
NOVAK: When did he say that, congressman?
PALLONE: ... or indirect support ...
NOVAK: When did he say that Musharraf was sending killers into the -- and terrorists in -- I have never found that.
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: If you could tell me a quote on that.
(CROSSTALK)
PALLONE: What the President Bush has said -- what President Bush has said is that the answer to this conflict is that Musharraf has to stop encouraging, giving support to these Pakistanis that are infiltrating into Kashmir.
(CROSSTALK)
PALLONE: Now you can say direct, indirect, whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
PALLONE: That's what's got to happen.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman Pallone, let me give Congressman Wilson the same opportunity I gave you. Let him ...
WILSON: There has been absolutely no proof that since 9/11 that Pakistan has encouraged any of these people. Now what India is doing, India has served the Soviet Union for 50 years. They built MiGs in New Delhi. They built M-72 and M-80 (ph), 72 and T-80 tanks. They were lackeys for the Soviet Union.
(CROSSTALK)
WILSON: They supported the Soviet Union -- they supported the Soviet Union in their invasion of Afghanistan. Now since 911 the Pakistanis have turned on a dime. They've done everything that we've asked them to. They have certainly done what they can to suppress any infiltration ...
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Congressman, we're going to have to go to break right now. We come back, we're going to put up exactly what President Bush said, and we'll give you a chance to respond to that and what he asked President Musharraf to do. And when we come back from our break, we'll be able to do that ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Just a minute, we'll ask what are the chances that one of these countries will actually use their nuclear weapons? And later, the howling, the whining over what President Bush's critics claim was a less than successful trip to Europe.
And at the bottom of the hour, we'll get an update on the rescue and helicopter crash on Mount Hood. We got to keep on that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will be heading to the other side of the globe to try to head off a war between India and Pakistan. Why does the U.S. have to play traffic cop to the world? Well, there might be a nuclear war is one reason.
In the CROSSFIRE, former Texas Congressman Charlie Wilson, a lobbyist for Pakistan and New Jersey Democratic Congressman Frank Pallone, a co-founder of the congressional caucus on India and Indian Americans. He's in New York.
Congressman Wilson and Congressman Pallone, I'll let you go first Congressman Wilson, we've been talking a lot about what the president was reported to say. And actually here on CROSSFIRE, we have what he actually said today, and I think we got it in his own words, so let's listen to president -- what President Bush said and give you a chance to comment on that. And then when he gets through, Congressman Pallone, we'll give you the same opportunity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We are making it very clear to both Pakistan and India that war will not serve their interests, and we're a part of an international coalition applying pressure to both parties, particularly to President Musharraf. He must stop the incursions across the line of control. He must do so. He said he would do so. We and others are making it clear to him that he must live up to his word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: Now, congressman, it looked like to me, and I got to be honest with you, that the president was singling out Musharraf with some pretty harsh comments in that.
WILSON: I don't necessarily think so, and we didn't hear what else the president said. All we heard was the clip that you had. I think that the president -- I think that the president is concerned, but the fact -- the fact is you can't spin on a dime. There were, prior to 9/11, there were incursions probably.
However, they've -- Pakistan has done everything they can. You can't change the world in eight months. They've done everything they can to stop the incursions.
NOVAK: Congressman Pallone, I want to ask you about that, because words do have precise meanings. You said -- you said -- you echoed the Indian line that President Musharraf was sending these terrorists across incursions. The president said he wanted them to stop these incursions from happening. There's a huge difference there, isn't there?
PALLONE: Well, Robert, not in my opinion. I mean, the president said it exactly. What he said is that Musharraf has the power to stop the incursions, to stop the violence ...
NOVAK: No, you said he ...
PALLONE: ... and he's not doing so.
NOVAK: ... you said he was sending them over. You said ...
PALLONE: Oh, I believe that he is, but I think the main thing the president was saying is he has the ability to stop it, and unless he does stop it, then the possibility of war is always there.
(CROSSTALK)
PALLONE: It's his responsibility to stop it. He can.
NOVAK: But just to pin this down, you said that the president has said that Pakistan was sending these incursions over. He never said that.
PALLONE: Well, the point -- he has and his people, you know, representing the administration over the last few months have pointed out many times that the camps where they train these infiltrators are open again, that Musharraf has allowed the camps to open again. He's letting these people operate freely once again. There's been a major change in the last couple of months so that now this infiltration is getting greater and greater. And that's why President Bush said today that Musharraf has got to stop it. That's what he meant.
WILSON: I didn't see nothing that indicated that the camps are open again. I've seen nothing that indicated that Musharraf or the Pakistanis are in any way sending anybody across the -- across the line of control. Now, you can't just turn on a dime. As long as you have a radical Islamic segment of your society, which of course Pakistan does, you're not going to be able to stop every one of them. But they're stopping a lot of them.
CARVILLE: How do we get out of this? How -- what has to happen?
WILSON: I think the idea -- I think -- I can't -- I can't fault the administration. I think the idea of sending Secretary Rumsfeld is a very good idea. I think the idea -- I think that Secretary of State Colin Powell has already done a good job. This action by India causing a million troops to be lined up facing each other, putting warheads on missiles, practicing with missiles, is doing nothing but helping Osama bin Laden, because it's pulling Pakistan troops off the line that should be looking for him.
NOVAK: And that has to be the last word. Charlie Wilson, thank you very much. Congressman Frank Pallone, thank you.
NOVAK: Tomorrow, Maleeha Lodhi, Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, will be our guest on CROSSFIRE.
Coming up, students at the University of Arkansas, get this, will get to study the big Clinton presidency. But in our CROSSFIRE "News Alert," I'll tell you why it may be a fluff class.
And our quote of the day comes from another FBI agent who isn't very happy with his employer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Join Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak in the CROSSFIRE. For free tickets to the live Washington audience, call 202-994-8CNN or e-mail us at cnn@gwu.edu. Now you can step into the CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: Get ready to take notes. We're going back to school for our CROSSFIRE news alert.
If you have saved to send your kid to the University of Arkansas, there's a new course available starting in January. Would you believe the Clinton presidency? Now, the professor, Margaret Scranton, claims to be a Republican, and she says the course won't be a whitewash -- quote -- "we're going to deal with the scandals and how you govern in the midst of it all, the politics of personal destruction" -- end quote.
No whitewash, Margaret? Sounds like you're going to teach how Bill Clinton survived all the haters arrayed against him. Well, it'll be interesting how Professor Scranton describes to the young Arkansans their favorite son lying to his staff, lying to the Cabinet, lying to the grand jury and getting away with it.
CARVILLE: You know, it's a problem, if they focus on Clinton's accomplishments, it'll have to be a 10-year course because when they stack them all up, they won't (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ...
NOVAK: I think -- I think -- I want -- I want to tell her how she tells -- she tells them he lied ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: ... he lied to you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... about how he never went to Europe and made a fool out of himself like this president did.
All right, class, our next lesson is history, and you don't have to sweat the final exam if you're a high school student in Palm Beach County, Florida. The school board has just come up with a new test, get 23 of the 100 questions right, you pass. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) half of them right, you get an A. Boy this test must be designed by a butterfly ballot. Going by the lower averages, you ought to be able to pass the test just by guessing one in four is 25 percent. You pass with flying colors. You can't just elect a guy you voted for, for president.
NOVAK: I think this is a pretty good deal because these are the kids of the parents who tried to vote for Gore and ended up voting for Buchanan. I think -- listen, you shouldn't -- 75 percent ought to be OK.
CARVILLE: Gore even still got the most votes, but anyway ...
(CROSSTALK)
NOVAK: Here comes the made for TV movie we've all been waiting for, the life of John Walker Lindh. The working title is "American Taliban" to be aired on the FX cable channel next year. You can expect the worst based on what writer producer John Romano says -- quote -- "I was compelled by the profound psychological and political mystery of this kid" -- end quote. I hope that Mr. Romano is not so compelled that he forgets that John Walker Lindh has been indicted for conspiring to murder U.S. nationals, providing services to al Qaeda and the Taliban, and using firearms during crimes of violence.
CARVILLE: I think it's going to get pretty low ratings. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
NOVAK: I hope so.
CARVILLE: ... anybody being too interested in that. If you can watch that, Bob, I'm tuning into some hard class TV entertainment. The Anna Nicole Smith show promises to be a real honest to goodness family television. I know because it's being produced for the E! cable TV network, not for the Playboy channel.
Maybe if it was the Playboy channel, I'd watch. So far camera crews have followed her to the dentist and they're going to watch her get her driver's license. Hey, wait a minute, maybe this could be more interesting if the Playboy channel got around to (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Oh, well, debuts on E! in August. If Playboy did it, they'd probably follow her to the gynecologist.
NOVAK: Maybe they can get her and John Walker Lindh story together.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Yes, both of them equally.
NOVAK: Just ahead in our CNN "News Alert," the dramatic helicopter crash and rescue effort on Mount Hood. Then we'll see why a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) included a NATO summit and the signing of a nuclear weapons treaty, a real triumph has president's critics whining at full volume. And our quote of the day comes from a man who says he might have caught some terrorists if only the bosses at the FBI had just paid attention.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful downtown Washington.
It's no secret that FBI agent Robert Wright is very unhappy with his supervisors. He complained to the Justice Department's Inspector General last fall. He sued the FBI earlier this month. Today he told his story to reporters. Wright says before September 11, FBI management intentionally thwarted his attempts to investigate and neutralize terrorists. The bureau has not responded to Robert Wright's accusations, but one of his comments is our quote of the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT WRIGHT, JR., FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Knowing what I know, I can confidently say that until the investigative responsibilities for terrorism are removed from the FBI, I will not feel safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: James, you know the -- this, people might have not known about this until they tuned into CROSSFIRE, because it hasn't been played in the news very much. That's just amazing. We tried to get Mr. Wright to come on tonight's show. And we'll try to get him to come on CROSSFIRE tomorrow night.
CARVILLE: What -- where -- if the FBI wasn't responsible for this, Bob, what other agency could do this? How would we do this? Let's assume he's right and the FBI's incapable of doing this.
NOVAK: Well, you just got to clean up the FBI. We can't start from scratch. But the idea of the typical FBI operation, somebody comes up with a complaint, one of their own agents, and they just brush him off.
CARVILLE: Yes, that seems to be part of the culture before this, but I hope they can -- somebody can get their act together, because they got a big job to do here.
NOVAK: OK. Coming up in our fireback, a would-be director has some very good advice for the way James Carville relates to TV cameras. But next, a Texas Republican courts Europe. We'll hold court on President Bush's trip when CROSSFIRE returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Welcome back. Not so long ago, if a U.S. president had gone to Russia and signed a treaty reducing thousands of nuclear warheads, or if he'd gone to a summit conference, where NATO established a new partnership with Russia, or even if he visited the D-Day cemeteries in France, the political and media crowds would have been singing his praises.
Instead, President Bush's just-ended trip to Europe, which included all that and more, has emboldened the president's critics. What's their problem? We'll find out soon. Joining us now in the crossfire are Democratic political consultant Peter Fenn, and former Republican National Committee spokesman Clifford May.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Clifford, the administration sends the vice president to the Middle East to drum up support on the war from Iraq. A week later, the Kuwaitis and the Saudis are kissing the Iraqis, and didn't get one person to be for that. Then the administration sends Secretary of State Powell to the Middle East in the most disastrous foreign policy trip any Secretary of State has ever taken. The Egyptian president refuses to meet with our secretary of state. Now our president goes to Europe and has thoroughly unimpressed the entire continent by his actions.
What's the matter with this administration? You all just don't travel very well, do you?
CLIFFORD MAY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know...
CARVILLE: Why don't you all just stay home?
MAY: Monsieur Carville, as you well know, it is the national sport of Europe, as well as your favorite pastime, to say that American presidents and the rest of us over here are (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and declasse and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and all that sort of thing.
CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
MAY: The fact of the matter is, this was a very successful trip. He went over there to do a few things. Thank you very much, a successful trip.
(APPLAUSE)
He went over there to Europe to listen to our allies, which is a good thing to do, and to tell them where we're going, particularly to make it clear that the war on terrorism is his top priority. And by the way, he signed the Treaty of Moscow, which you should deploy. It brings our nuclear arsenals down by two-thirds. That is a good thing.
CARVILLE: He listened to Chirac right to his face, criticized the United States. Then he went to the German to the Bundestag and listened to the president of Bundestag criticize the United States right to his face. What -- I remember what American presidents used to go over to there -- Eichen Berliner (ph), tear down this wall or something. Now he goes over there and is scoring political points by attacking him. What's wrong with this guy?
MAY: No, no, no. Look, there was always going to be criticism from Europe. Never more so than right now, because our agenda and Europe's are different right now. Europe's in the process of giving up national power, sovereignty, and giving it all to Brussels bureaucrats. We wish them well, but we're not doing that. We have our national interests. He expressed that. That's what a president should do.
NOVAK: Peter Fenn...
PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STATEMENT: I'm happy to get in here.
NOVAK: You'll get in. Let me ask you this question though. Peter Fenn, James Carville just quoted Ronald Reagan as saying tear down that wall. Now the interesting thing is I remember, and I think you're old enough to remember as well, that about 20 years ago when Ronald Reagan went to Europe, they called him a cowboy. The same little journalists in Europe were saying he is unsophisticated. I'll bet you you could find exactly the same quotes on Reagan as you find on George W. Bush.
FENN: The bumbling quote I'm not sure you could find.
NOVAK: Yes.
FENN: Calling him bumbling in the London paper...
NOVAK: They called him a cowboy, didn't they?
FENN: Well, this guy they call -- is more Texan, you know, than statesman, I think is the best phrase here. But what we had here was the stuff that was prearranged. The Treaty of Moscow that you referred to, which was sealed and delivered, and all he had to do was sign it, he could have faxed his signature over there.
MAY: This always works. And you know it, with any president -- you don't negotiate that over there.
FENN: The problem with George Bush unfortunately is that when you get him out of his box, he complains about jet lag.
NOVAK: Mr. Fenn...
FENN: You know...
NOVAK: Mr. Fenn, I'd like you to listen to something the president said, because it's very hard to find all these terrible things he fouled up on, but I want you to listen to something. And I want to ask you as an American if you weren't proud of him for this. And let's listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today marks an historic achievement for a great alliance and a great European nation. Two former foes are now joined as partners, overcoming 50 years of division and a decade of uncertainty. And this partnership takes us closer to an even larger goal, a Europe that is whole, free and at peace for the first time in history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOVAK: Europe is peaceful. Isn't that thrilling, doesn't that thrill you?
FENN: You know, I'm very happy to have this treaty signed. But you know, I think he should have signed it and come home, because the rest of his trip, he tells us he's not going to bring up the issue of the sexual improprieties with the pope. He brings it up. He goes out and he criticizes a journalist for using a couple of French words.
NOVAK: Oh, (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Oh, come on.
FENN: Not, but the trouble with Bush is...
NOVAK: Do you know how petty you sound?
FENN: I don't mean to be petty, because...
NOVAK: You are petty though.
FENN: No, no.
(APPLAUSE)
FENN: OK, let me just read you what the president -- this was not written about John Kennedy when he went to Berlin. And this was not written about Jimmy Carter. And this was not written about Ronald Reagan. This is from the BBC lead correspondent.
NOVAK: BBC, oh.
FENN: Right, well I'm telling you, they're supposed to be our best buddies. I think they think he's not very intelligent. I think they think he finds it very hard to articulate his opinions. And he's the kind of rigid conviction. I don't think he really dissuaded a lot of his critics. That wasn't the case on this trip. He did himself more harm, I'm afraid, than good. And I'm not happy about it.
NOVAK: That's what they said about -- oh, yes, you are.
FENN: No, I'm not happy about it.
NOVAK: You're a political activist. FENN: Hey, I was in Spain. Let me just tell you, I was in Spain. Let me just show you this. I defended our president.
NOVAK: I bet you did.
CARVILLE: And I'm glad you did, because I feel compelled to defend him over that. Just it's kind of embarrassing when he goes. But -- this is something that cracks me up.
MAY: We don't want you to be embarrassed, James.
CARVILLE: The president of the United States went over. And he said gee, I wasn't myself because I suffered from jet lag. (UNINTELLIGIBLE.) If you can't go to Europe and play hurt, what are you president for? Why don't you stay in Texas if you can't fly to Europe and represent the interests of the United States?
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
MAY: James, let me respond just a little bit. This is so petty. What we had here was historic. Right now we have the best relationship between an American president and a Russian president.
CARVILLE: Are you kidding? Bill Clinton is the father of modern Russia. When...
MAY: Bill Clinton is the father of modern Russia?
CARVILLE: Yes, sir. He is the person that funded Yeltsin...
MAY: Understand something about Europe now. I have...
CARVILLE: But I asked you about jet lag. You're telling the president of the United States can't do his job, is such a ninny, that he can't fly to Europe and...
MAY: He's got Air Force One. Now Air Force One is so hard to fly. It's got a bed. It's got a shower. When I went over, I was the fat man in the middle seat.
NOVAK: Mr. Fenn, I want to get to what we're really talking about here.
FENN: OK, substance.
NOVAK: Substance. The problem is jealousy by the Europeans. Now just for a minute, let me just make my point. This is a continent now where anti-Semitism is on the rise, where anti-immigration, anti- immigrant feeling is on the rise. The EU is a real problem, the European Union. The Italian conservative government is not cooperating. When they served with the peacekeeping troops in the Balkans, they see that we have much better high tech weapons. And most of all, we have a great economy and they don't. This is -- the Europeans are jealous. And shame on you for paying attention to them. FENN: No, Bob, you got it dead wrong.
(APPLAUSE)
You got it dead wrong. I just was in -- I was just in Spain for a week. And as I said, I did defend the president. They were accusing him of being responsible for the attacks on the Twin Towers. I mean, in this article, in this paper, I said no, no. But they said -- look, let me just make this point.
MAY: That was very brave of you.
FENN: Yes, wasn't it? I'm a brave guy.
MAY: Our president didn't cause the attacks on the Twin Towers.
FENN: But you know what? Here is a president who decides he's going to go it alone. He's going to go it alone when it comes to the global and environmental treaties. He's going to go it alone. Bill Clinton had 18 countries signing up for the Balkans.
(CROSS TALK)
CARVILLE: Let me just give you a chance, because I want -- not with James Carville (UNINTELLIGIBLE.) Let's see what the British press, our biggest ally, had to say about our president's performance over there. Post it up there. Let's see, "The London Independent."
"Bush sometimes seems unsure which European country he is visiting." From "The Daily Mirror," "bumbling Bush was lost for words last night." From "The Times of London," a Tory newspaper, "like certain distinctive wines, President George W. Bush doesn't travel very well." Shouldn't he stay at home?
MAY: The fact of the matter is, James, the Europeans know a great deal about...
CARVILLE: This is the British.
MAY: Let me get in. The Europeans, including the British -- we kind of include them as honorary Europeans or dishonorary. They know a lot about wines. They know a lot about cheese. As far as foreign policy goes, these are the people with the notable of exception of Winston Churchill, who saw no reason to take up arms against Adolf Hitler. These are people, who after September 11...
CARVILLE: Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Russians didn't have arms against Adolf Hitler? Boy, I tell you what -- that the Polish didn't take up arms against Adolf Hitler? The French didn't take up arms against Adolf Hitler? The British didn't?
NOVAK: I want to get one more thing in here. Just a minute. Sir Roy Denman, a distinguished British civil servant, former representative of the European Commission in Washington. Let's see what he said about this criticism. He said, "What Europe needs to do is to stop whining about U.S. unilateralism and make itself a credible heavyweight partner. When it speaks with one voice on foreign policy and puts its money where its mouth is on defense, America will take it seriously, not before."
MAY: Exactly.
NOVAK: Do you agree with that?
FENN: Absolutely. Look, the problem -- no, the problem is...
NOVAK: You don't agree with that?
FENN: Listen, his world is shrinking. And this -- the trouble is with this guy is that he doesn't -- he's not up to the job. You know, the trouble is with him when that red phone rings in the Oval Office, I want somebody else answering it after this trip.
MAY: The goal is not to please the European or...
CARVILLE: Guys, I'm sorry, we're out of time. A viewer has e- mailed a suggestion about what Bush should have been doing the last nine months. But before we get to fireback, James -- Bob Novak and I will take off the gloves. Stay tuned for round six.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It's round six, just me and James Carville.
James, for the 200 years' history of this republic, there's been a certain kind of American who is sensitive to what the British and the Europeans think of us. I didn't think that you, down from the Bayou in Louisiana, was that kind of American. So I got to tell you how disappointed I am in you.
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, I mean, I'm of French descent. And you know, Bob, I like Europe. I don't hate the Europeans. I like the Europeans. I like the French. I like the British. I like the Italians. I like all of them.
NOVAK: Why don't you go there?
CARVILLE: The truth of the matter is -- well, actually I am going in June and quite looking forward to it.
NOVAK: And stay.
CARVILLE: This president just doesn't travel very well. He's not very good on his feet. He doesn't like to do it. This administration's foreign policy now, they -- I went through the vice president's trip, the Secretary of State's trip, and now this trip. They either got to get their act together or just stay out of world affairs. And maybe we ought to become an isolationist nation, which I'm sure would make you happy. NOVAK: Well, no, I think we got to be a little bit honest on the fact that this was a highly successful trip with the treaties he had. And it was a moving time at the D-Day. I don't know if you watched it.
CARVILLE: Everybody -- I saw it. And everybody thought it was a less than stellar performance by the president.
NOVAK: Well, I thought it was very -- but everybody knows that you've got your knife out to get the president of the United States.
CARVILLE: No, I didn't vote for him. He didn't win the election.
NOVAK: You didn't vote...
CARVILLE: I'm not going to vote for him again. And why would you be watching CROSSFIRE if you want to be -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if he does something. Let me ask you a serious question.
NOVAK: But you've got to be a little bit objective as an American.
CARVILLE: Yes, and I was saying what everybody else says. Bob, tell us how we get out of this Pakistan-India thing? What needs to happen here?
NOVAK: I think that the Pakistani government has to make sure that they have cleaned up these camps as Charlie Wilson says they have. But the Indians are outrageous. When they put their military force out there, this is highly provocative. And the idea that this is a one-sided story, the one side or the other, is at fault is ridiculous, particularly when they've both got their nuclear sabers.
CARVILLE: What chance do you think there is that there will actually be a war? Give a percent off the top of your head?
NOVAK: It's maybe a 10 percent chance, but that's too damn high. OK. You believe it's too high? I think...
CARVILLE: I do. Yes, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), 80 percent. But yes, I do. Silence is acquiescence.
NOVAK: All right, in a minute, you'll get your chance to "Fire Back" at us. One viewer has an idea that may end the battle over teaching evolution. You're going to be surprised at this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARVILLE: And welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful Foggy Bottom in Washington, D.C.
And one of my favorite parts of the show, we have "Fire Back." And we'll be doing -- reading some e-mails here, Bob. And I think we'll be letting this evolution/creationism story spill over into another night. Let's see what we got to say here.
OK. "Wouldn't it have been better for the protection of American people if the White House had spent the last eight months reforming the FBI instead of forming an ineffectual office of homeland security and covering up its failure?" M.L. Stein of Honolulu, HI.
NOVAK: Well, Mr. Stein's half right. They should have been do more to fix up the FBI, but that's not saying that you shouldn't drop that Democratic clap trap about the homeland security office.
CARVILLE: The White House can't do two things at the same time. We know that.
NOVAK: Yes, OK. All right, the next -- we were talking about evolution last night. And so we continue that debate. Jim Ferketic of Ellington, New York. He says, "Why waste time debating evolution? A comparison of Carville and chimp DNA should permanently link evolutionary theory with physical fact."
CARVILLE: That is a slam on the chimps to say that I'm connected to them.
NOVAK: All right.
CARVILLE: OK, "Hey, Bob, get over the fact that we're not getting over it -- Bush Inc stole the 2000 election. Oh, by the way, I looked under demagogue in the dictionary and saw your picture.
NOVAK: I'll tell you, if anybody calls me a demagogue sitting next to you, that's like the frog calling the friend ugly, you know?
CARVILLE: Can I call a chimp then?
NOVAK: Yes, any time.
All right, last e-mail's from Tom Shaw, Richmond, Virginia. It's one of my favorites of the year. "James, as a long-term fan, I'm asking that you refrain from staring at the camera after your regular tirades on CROSSFIRE. Your frozen pose causes both of my children to become very upset. My oldest son refers to you as the "evil grasshopper man." I love your style, but my kids are having nightmares.
(APPLAUSE)
OK. First question, please?
JANINE RAYSARDEN (ph): Hi, my name is Janine Raysarden (ph).
NOVAK: Bring your microphone up to your mouth.
RAYSARDEN (ph): I'm from Washington, D.C. And my question is for James Carville.
CARVILLE: I'm the evil grasshopper. RAYSARDEN (ph): Regarding President Bush's trip to Europe, isn't it true that no matter what President Bush achieves, Democrats will always perceive it to be unsuccessful?
NOVAK: Exactly.
CARVILLE: Well, first of all, the Democrats have been a lot more kind to this president than the Republicans were to the greatest president since World War II. Secondly, he just didn't...
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: ... he just didn't have a very successful trip. And it wasn't just the Democrats that criticized this trip. It was the people that he went over there and visited in Europe. And it was a lot of people here in the United States also.
NOVAK: James' motto is get even. All right, next question?
SCOTT: Gentlemen, my name is Scott from Wallace, Idaho. My question is why are we sending Secretary Rumsfeld over right now, instead of Secretary Powell?
CARVILLE: A good question.
NOVAK: That is a hell of a question.
CARVILLE: And I don't know what more they can do to insult poor Colin Powell.
NOVAK: No, oh, that isn't an insult.
CARVILLE: It is.
NOVAK: I'm sure there's a good reason for it, but I'd like to try to find out.
CARVILLE: Tell us what it is.
NOVAK: I don't know. I'll find out maybe by tomorrow.
CARVILLE: Why would you send the Secretary of Defense on a peacekeeping mission when you have a State Department?
NOVAK: Next question.
CARVILLE: That's a very good question.
JED BURSAL: My name is Jed Bursal from Boston, Massachusetts. And I'm wondering if either one of you think it was appropriate for President Bush to chime in on the Catholic priest pedophile scandal in his meeting with the pope?
CARVILLE: I honestly didn't have a problem. And -- he could have done it in private or whatever, but I don't have a big problem with that. NOVAK: I didn't think it was appropriate in my opinion.
CARVILLE: Well, there you go.
NOVAK: See, I'm an evenhanded person.
CARVILLE: I am, too. I stayed out in center. From the left, I'm James Carville. Good-night for CROSSFIRE.
NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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